Can't pay in pennies?
Open FleshWound
<dfish...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3ab40c4e...@news.qwest.net...
> I had to miss a scheduled appointment at my ex-dentist due to a work
> emergencey. Now he is charging me a $50 missed appointment fee. I
> wrote him asking that he forgive this fee this once, but he refused.
Did you consent and agree to such a charge?
Ask him if he say anyone else in that hour of yours, or whether
he truly sat there doing nothing.
>
> To protest, I went to pay him his $50 in pennies, but he refused my
> coins saying he had no way to count them. The paper I signed when I
> first went to him said nothing about not accepting coins as payment.
Tough luck for him, he must accept it.
>
> I have gotten conflicting opinions about whether or not he is
> obligated to take my payment in pennies. I know that the IRS is
> exempt from accepting payment in pennies, but the BBB has told me that
> unless it is written in his policies that cash is not accpeted, he
> must take it.
The BBB is correct.
>
> Does anyone know the legalities?
See above ... and find another Dentist.
>
> By the way, the dentist is Dr. Martin Frye off of Table Mesa. His
> payment policies make the Soup Nazi look like a sweetheart.
Vote with your wallet, find another dentist, and warn all others you
know to stay away from the greedy bastard.
Ron Herff
attorney to see if coins are considered legal tender. If they are, then, the
dentist can't refuse the method of payment and can get into a lot of legal
trouble for refusing legal tender. Again, to protect my ass ... I am not an
attorney and this is my humble opinion.
DRoe2
"Ron Herff" <ronhe...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:AP7v6.46304$H5.10...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
Wrong:
From the U.S. Treasury Page http://www.treas.gov/opc/opc0034.html#quest11
"I thought that United States currency was legal
tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental
agencies say that they will only accept checks, money
orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only
accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or
smaller. Isn't this illegal?"
"The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage
Act of 1965, specifically Section 102. This is now found in section 392 of
Title 31 of the United States Code. The law says that: "All coins and currencies
of the United States (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of
Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations) . . . shall be
legal-tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties and dues.""
"This statute means that all United States money as identified above are
a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.
There is, however, no Federal law mandating that a person or organization
must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services.
For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills.
In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse
to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter
of policy."
Jerri Blavittł
Ron Herff <ronhe...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:AP7v6.46304$H5.10...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> attorney to see if coins are considered legal tender.
They aren't.
> If they are, then, the
> dentist can't refuse the method of payment and can get into a lot of legal
> trouble for refusing legal tender.
Not true, there is no obligation to receive such. A merchant can
require any method or methods of payment they so desire.
> Again, to protect my ass ... I am not an
> attorney and this is my humble opinion.
Based upon what?
>
> > > To protest, I went to pay him his $50 in pennies, but he refused my
> > > coins saying he had no way to count them. The paper I signed when I
> > > first went to him said nothing about not accepting coins as payment.
> >
> > Tough luck for him, he must accept it.
>
>
--
"Did you really think we want those laws observed? said Dr. Ferris.
We WANT them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's
not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against.... We're after power
and we mean it .... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only
power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals one MAKES them. One
declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible
for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law
abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass
the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or
objectively interpreted--and you create a nation of law-breakers--
and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system Mr. Reardon,
that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier
to deal with." --Ayn Rand
Arthur L. Rubin
>
> Payment is coins, I believe, may be refused. You need to check with an
> attorney to see if coins are considered legal tender. If they are, then, the
> dentist can't refuse the method of payment and can get into a lot of legal
> trouble for refusing legal tender. Again, to protect my ass ... I am not an
> attorney and this is my humble opinion.
The other replies seem to ignore the fact that there the original poster
implied there was no contract stating allowed payment methods. If there
is no such explicit clause, then the dentist can refuse to accept the
pennies,
but he cannot then report the debt as unpaid.
I am not a lawyer, and this is based on my recollection of the
Net.Consensus
in 1994. The laws may have changed, or my recollection may be
incorrect.
--
Arthur L. Rubin 216-...@mcimail.com
Ronal...@whitehouse.gov
>> If they are, then, the
>> dentist can't refuse the method of payment and can get into a lot of legal
>> trouble for refusing legal tender.
>
>Not true, there is no obligation to receive such. A merchant can
>require any method or methods of payment they so desire.
I'm not so sure youi are right about this.
I understand that certain merchants can ask that payment be made in
certain forms, for instance, "No bills larger than $20 after 10:00 pm
at a 7-11", or a merchant not accepting credit cards or checks due to
the extra expense associated with such. But in all these cases you
are not obligated to make a payment. You could just take your
business elsewhere.
However in this case, the dentist is charging $50 for missing an
appointment. This is money owed and you don't have a choice of going
somewhere else.
What if the dentist decided only to take payment in the form of gold
doubloons, or Russion Rubles, or rare baseball cards. It seems that
if the merchant is to impose special conditions on the form of a
payment once it has been charged, then he or she should state that in
writing, and not impose it after the fact based upon some whim or
desire to make it more or less difficult for the person having to pay
the debt.
Unless otherwise stated in the payment policies or signed agreement, I
would think any form of widely accepted US currency would have to be
accepted.
Dan Evans
<ronhe...@netscape.net> wrote:
>Payment is coins, I believe, may be refused. You need to check with an
>attorney to see if coins are considered legal tender. If they are, then, the
>dentist can't refuse the method of payment and can get into a lot of legal
>trouble for refusing legal tender.
Not true.
In order to be effective, a "tender" must not only be "legal," it must
be reasonable in time, place, and manner. So, for example, you can't
go to the dentist's office at 2:00 a.m., shout "I've got your money,"
waive some bills, and then walk away and keep the money when no one
answers.
On the reasonableness of using pennies to pay a debt, I have found at
least one court that agreed that a tender of 12,300 pennies (which was
refused) did not discharge a debt of $123.00.
"Appellant contends that since United States coins are defined in 31
U.S. CA 5103 as legal tender 'for all debts, public charges taxes and
dues" they can be tendered in any amount, here 12,300 pennies, which
the clerk is required to accept. It defies logic and common sense that
this Congress intended such a wooden and broad application of the
statute beyond any control of the payee regardless of circumstances."
Ohio v. Carroll, 1997 Ohio App. Lexis 928 (4th App. Dist., 3/13/1997).
**Dan Evans
**The above is not legal advice
**unless you have paid me for it.
Melissa Liberty
<kAgv6.5228$nj2.8...@news.uswest.net>:
>
>Ron Herff <ronhe...@netscape.net> wrote in message
>news:AP7v6.46304$H5.10...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
>> Payment is coins, I believe, may be refused. You need to check with an
>> attorney to see if coins are considered legal tender.
>
>They aren't.
>
>> If they are, then, the
>> dentist can't refuse the method of payment and can get into a lot of legal
>> trouble for refusing legal tender.
>
>Not true, there is no obligation to receive such. A merchant can
>require any method or methods of payment they so desire.
Yes, I think only the govt has to accept it.
You could demand payment in something actually of value instead of paper, if
you wanted, like silver or gold.
--
- Melissa in SW Denver
Seeking full time job - west side of Denver.
http://www.dimensional.com/~melissa/resume.htm
http://dimensional.com/~melissa/melissa.htm
"A Bill Of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every
government on earth, general or particular, and what no just
government should refuse, or rest on inference." -Thomas Jefferson
http://www.UPAlliance.org/
"Yiddin, learn tzoo shissin!" http://www.gunowners.org/wv07.htm
DRoe2
"Melissa Liberty" <Melissa...@NO-PRIVATE.org> wrote
> >Ron Herff <ronhe...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> >news:AP7v6.46304$H5.10...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> >> Payment is coins, I believe, may be refused. You need to check with an
> >> attorney to see if coins are considered legal tender.
> >They aren't.
> >> If they are, then, the
> >> dentist can't refuse the method of payment and can get into a lot of legal
> >> trouble for refusing legal tender.
> >
> >Not true, there is no obligation to receive such. A merchant can
> >require any method or methods of payment they so desire.
> Yes, I think only the govt has to accept it.
Think again. The gvt. constantly refuses to take cash of any kind.
Witness the Miami, FL U.S. Passport Office.
> You could demand payment in something actually of value instead of paper, if
> you wanted, like silver or gold.
Yes, and if that is stipulated in a contract and if the specie required isn't
available, the FRN's take over as "legal tender."