Grocery store stop signs ?
McGyver
news:hjh5uvc2hjqam6cmo...@4ax.com...
> Grocery stores always seem to have at least 3 stop signs out in their
> parking lots, near the store front entrances. I have always found
> them really annoying. I can see ONE at the main doors, but there are
> just too many. However, I stop anyhow since it's the law.
>
> BUT.....
> First off, this is private property, can a cop really issue a citation
> if someone runs one of them? The other thing, what if the store is
> closed. Is a driver still required to stop at each one?
>
> I am asking this because there is a local 24 hour Walmart. Right next
> to the Walmart is a strip mall with a large grocery store. The whole
> mall forms an "L" shape. There is only one entrance to the shared
> parking lot, so in order to get to Walmart, a driver has to pass the
> grocery store first, which means stopping four times at this location.
> I often go to Walmart late at night. and think it is just plain
> rediculous having to stop at each sign when the grocery store is
> closed.
>
> Does anyone know what the legal requirements would be in this case?
> Could I be given a citation if I do not stop during these night hours?
> By the way, this store is in Wisconsin.
In my state, the Vehicle Code can be made to apply to private property if
the property owner posts a sign saying that under such-and-such provision of
the Vehicle Code, the owner has opted to apply the Vehicle Code to the
property. Then the cops can give citations. If Wisconson law is like that,
then the laws concerning stop signs will apply.
McGyver
Matthew Russotto
<unli...@private.com> wrote:
>Grocery stores always seem to have at least 3 stop signs out in their
>parking lots, near the store front entrances. I have always found
>them really annoying. I can see ONE at the main doors, but there are
>just too many. However, I stop anyhow since it's the law.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Most likely it isn't; in Pennsylvania,
it isn't, unless the parking lot is also a public roadway, which most
aren't. Look up your local laws.
--
Matthew T. Russotto mrus...@speakeasy.net
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of
a modicum of security is a very expensive vice.
chris
> In article <hjh5uvc2hjqam6cmo...@4ax.com>,
> <unli...@private.com> wrote:
> >Grocery stores always seem to have at least 3 stop signs out in their
> >parking lots, near the store front entrances. I have always found
> >them really annoying. I can see ONE at the main doors, but there are
> >just too many. However, I stop anyhow since it's the law.
>
> Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Most likely it isn't; in Pennsylvania,
> it isn't, unless the parking lot is also a public roadway, which most
> aren't. Look up your local laws.
This is one of the more annoying abuses of the law here in the US. I've
just returned from 2 years of living over seas, and only Germany comes
close in terms of ridiculous laws and over zealous use of stop signs and
lights. The big problem is that when we over-use stop signs like this,
they loose their significance.
I've been blowing through those things for 15 years now, and have never
received a ticket. Do your brakes a favor and do the same. You have to
realize that police will stay away from private property citations just
because it's such a hastle for them. Why bother on private property when
they can set up a speed trap on the local public road? It's not worth
their time.
The only exception to this rule is when you're in one of those big mall
parking lots, as they often have private security who can and will issue
citations.
When I get stuck behind someone that makes 4 complete stops in front of
the grocery store and turns their head both directions, it really makes me
want to kill myself!!!
chris
swatcop
<unli...@private.com> wrote in message
news:hjh5uvc2hjqam6cmo...@4ax.com...
> Grocery stores always seem to have at least 3 stop signs out in their
> parking lots, near the store front entrances. I have always found
> them really annoying. I can see ONE at the main doors, but there are
> just too many. However, I stop anyhow since it's the law.
>
> BUT.....
> First off, this is private property, can a cop really issue a citation
> if someone runs one of them? The other thing, what if the store is
> closed. Is a driver still required to stop at each one?
>
There are lots of places that have stop signs that are not legally
enforceable signs. In some states you will find a D.O.T. sticker on the back
of the sign verifying that the sign is D.O.T. approved (not just the sign,
but the height, location, placement, etc.). Check the back of the sign if
this applies in Wisconsin. You can also inquire as to the signs legality by
checking with either your city hall or the county office that keeps the
records.
As far as stopping at each sign, yes you are required to come to a complete
stop at each sign. The store being closed doesn't make any difference. If
you come upon a traffic light on at 4:00 in the morning and there is no
traffic, you still have to stop, right?
> I am asking this because there is a local 24 hour Walmart. Right next
> to the Walmart is a strip mall with a large grocery store. The whole
> mall forms an "L" shape. There is only one entrance to the shared
> parking lot, so in order to get to Walmart, a driver has to pass the
> grocery store first, which means stopping four times at this location.
> I often go to Walmart late at night. and think it is just plain
> rediculous having to stop at each sign when the grocery store is
> closed.
>
> Does anyone know what the legal requirements would be in this case?
> Could I be given a citation if I do not stop during these night hours?
> By the way, this store is in Wisconsin.
>
Check the signs like I said. A lot of states allow officers to issue
citations on parking lots, especially if the signs are D.O.T. approved. As
far as being able to enforce on private property, like I said - some states
will allow it as long as the signs are properly posted. I remember when I
used to work in NJ we would get a letter from the owner of the property
which allowed us to enforce traffic laws on private property. The easiest
thing to do would be to call the law enforcement agency where the Walmart is
and ask them about it.
--
<-= swatcop =->
"If it wasn't for stupid people I'd be unemployed."
Dave C.
<unli...@private.com> wrote in message
news:hjh5uvc2hjqam6cmo...@4ax.com...
> Grocery stores always seem to have at least 3 stop signs out in their
> parking lots, near the store front entrances. I have always found
> them really annoying. I can see ONE at the main doors, but there are
> just too many. However, I stop anyhow since it's the law.
>
> BUT.....
> First off, this is private property, can a cop really issue a citation
> if someone runs one of them? The other thing, what if the store is
> closed. Is a driver still required to stop at each one?
>
I think most states, the answer is that cops can not enforce traffic laws on
private property. I know in MA, there's no way a ticket for running a stop
sign in a parking lot would stand. Cops in MA do not have jurisdiction on
private property. -Dave
Alex Rodriguez
>Grocery stores always seem to have at least 3 stop signs out in their
>parking lots, near the store front entrances. I have always found
>them really annoying. I can see ONE at the main doors, but there are
>just too many. However, I stop anyhow since it's the law.
>BUT.....
>First off, this is private property, can a cop really issue a citation
>if someone runs one of them? The other thing, what if the store is
>closed. Is a driver still required to stop at each one?
>to the Walmart is a strip mall with a large grocery store. The whole
>mall forms an "L" shape. There is only one entrance to the shared
>parking lot, so in order to get to Walmart, a driver has to pass the
>grocery store first, which means stopping four times at this location.
>I often go to Walmart late at night. and think it is just plain
>rediculous having to stop at each sign when the grocery store is
>closed.
>Does anyone know what the legal requirements would be in this case?
>Could I be given a citation if I do not stop during these night hours?
>By the way, this store is in Wisconsin.
If the store is closed, I wouldn't worry about. I would also add that many
of the signs are not properly place, usually too low or on the wrong side
of the road, so they are not enforceable.
------------
Alex
Isaac
wrote:
No jurisdiction eh? What if you ran over someone in your driveway? What
if you were drunk at the time? Would the fact that you were in your
own driveway prevent you from getting a ticket for DUI?
I don't know what the answer is in most states, but it is not uncommon
that police are allowed to enforce traffic laws with the owner's permission.
If any owner is going to give permission it is likely to be mall and
shopping center owners.
Isaac
Dave C.
> > I think most states, the answer is that cops can not enforce traffic
laws on
> > private property. I know in MA, there's no way a ticket for running a
stop
> > sign in a parking lot would stand. Cops in MA do not have jurisdiction
on
> > private property. -Dave
>
> No jurisdiction eh? What if you ran over someone in your driveway? What
> if you were drunk at the time? Would the fact that you were in your
> own driveway prevent you from getting a ticket for DUI?
>
> I don't know what the answer is in most states, but it is not uncommon
> that police are allowed to enforce traffic laws with the owner's
permission.
> If any owner is going to give permission it is likely to be mall and
> shopping center owners.
>
> Isaac
Several years ago, I was working at a private company in MA that had a
public road cutting through it's parking lot. Public road meaning, built
and maintained with public money, and marked on city street maps. There
were speed limit signs posted on this road which were routinely ignored.
Drivers regularly cut through the parking lot section of this road at 40MPH
or better. Now imagine this road at 5PM when hundreds of people are
crossing it in a marked crosswalk to get to their cars, and traffic on the
road (in the parking lot) is 40MPH with nobody even bothering to slow down.
I called the police several times to complain. The police knew EXACTLY the
road I was calling about. I was told that police have no jurisdiction on
private property. If you can't enforce a speed limit on a public road just
because it cuts through private property, you certainly can't enforce a stop
sign in a parking lot nowhere near a public road. -Dave
Bob Stock
wrote:
>In my state, the Vehicle Code can be made to apply to private property if
>the property owner posts a sign saying that under such-and-such provision of
>the Vehicle Code, the owner has opted to apply the Vehicle Code to the
>property. Then the cops can give citations.
I think it's more complicated than that. There are various provisions
in the California Vehicle Code that apply to private roads and then
some that apply to private parking lots. As I recall -- and I'd have
to look at them again -- they vary in terms of hurdles that have to be
jumped before the Vehicle Code applies, things like city council
meetings that have to be held in the city in which the parking lot is
located and only certain laws apply, not others. This came up
recently for me in the context of the current supermarket labor
dispute, but I have the little bit of research I did at the office.
------------------------------
Bob Stock, California Attorney
Nothing I've said should be relied on as legal advice.
------------------------------
Horrigan
if you drive recklessly, you can always be ticketed for THAT and running a stop
sign is reckless. Especially if you hit someone in the process.
*****
Tim Horrigan <horr...@aol.com>
*****
Isaac
wrote:
I don't see anything in your post inconsistent with the police having
jurisdiction on private propery if the owner requests it. Perhaps in this
instance the owner hasn't requested it. But that doesn't mean that some
shopping center owner might not request it.
I'm not describing what goes in MA. I couldn't find anything definitive
when I searched. I did find a few hits where there were local
ordinances indicating that traffic laws would be enforced on private
property (not in MA) as well as a some states (like NJ) that maintained
lists of owners who had made formal requests to have traffic laws
enforced on their property.
I am questioning whether you really know the answer applicable in any
given locality in MA.
Isaac
Bob Stock
>Even if you have the right to run a stop sign, it's still not a good idea. And
>if you drive recklessly, you can always be ticketed for THAT and running a stop
>sign is reckless. Especially if you hit someone in the process.
It's probably not a good idea to run a stop sign, even on private
property, but I'm not so sure about the rest. At least in California,
there are definite and significant restrictions on the Vehicle Code's
application to anything except public streets. So, if driving
recklessly is an offense under some other non-Vehicle Code statute,
then I agree that the person could be arrested; otherwise, I would
think not. Also, I'm not so sure that running a stop sign on private
property would automatically be considered reckless. There might have
to be some other independent measure to prove recklessness.
Arif Khokar
> If
> you come upon a traffic light on at 4:00 in the morning and there is no
> traffic, you still have to stop, right?
Not if it's green :-D
Kenneth Crudup
>------------------------------
>Bob Stock, California Attorney
>------------------------------
If you (can) do traffic-related work and live in SoCal, please shoot me an
E-mail. I'd like to keep a net-savvy lawyer's name in my pocket "just in case".
-Kenny
--
Kenneth R. Crudup Sr. SW Engineer, Scott County Consulting, Los Angeles
H: 3801 E. Pacific Coast Hw #9, Long Beach, CA 90804-2014 (888) 454-8181
W: 26601 Agoura Road, Calabasas CA 91302-1959 (818) 444-3685
Kenneth Crudup
"swatcop" <swa...@tampabay.rr.nospam> says:
>If you come upon a traffic light on at 4:00 in the morning and there is no
>traffic, you still have to stop, right?
Dunno- is there a cop around?
DTJ
wrote:
The more of your post one reads, the more one realizes you are an LLB
idiot.
>In Oregon the law says you must yield the right of way when merging into
>traffic. So I should think that would hold true even if you are on
>private property like Walmart or your own driveway.
The law says "when entering a public right of way". Big difference.
>Besides, you should
>also consider what is safe along with what's legal. So a cop gives you a
>$250.00 ticket if you ran the Walmart stop sign and got hit by a truck.
>What would your medical bills be and how would you like to endure the
>pain? My advice? Stop!
Nobody wants advice from aunt millie clones. How the hell is a truck
going to hit him and put him in the hospital in a walmart parking lot?
Don't tell me - Scotty might beam it down.
>What it comes down to is this.....................Is your time so damn
>important you can't take time to be considerate of the safety of other
>people? Where could you be rushing to in such a hurry?
Yes fuck face. My time is worth too much to me to stop at stop signs
in the middle of fucking nowhere.
DTJ
wrote:
And not if it is red and you check for cops.
Hell there is a stop sign in my neighborhood I almost NEVER stop for.
The reason is because it is illegal. However, every time I approach I
look for cars. If none are coming, I don't even slow down. See,
Illinois has laws about where you can place a stop sign. Hint to the
morons in my town - the MIDDLE of the intersection is not legal.
Najena
> Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Most likely it isn't; in Pennsylvania,
> it isn't, unless the parking lot is also a public roadway, which most
> aren't. Look up your local laws.
In PA, if the land is 10 contiguous acres or larger, the owner can opt to
have the vehicle code enforced on the land, if the land is posted according
to DOT regulations. See section 6113 of the Vehicle Code.
Brent P
> Hell there is a stop sign in my neighborhood I almost NEVER stop for.
> The reason is because it is illegal. However, every time I approach I
> look for cars. If none are coming, I don't even slow down. See,
> Illinois has laws about where you can place a stop sign. Hint to the
> morons in my town - the MIDDLE of the intersection is not legal.
Since when did that stop a town from ticketing people for something?
They just write up the tickets and it's the person who has to put in
far more effort than the cost of the ticket to fight it.
Theodore A. Kaldis
> -Kenny
You live in Long Beach and work in Calabasas? Man, that's some commute!
(Particularly with the 405 / 101 traffic.)
--
Theodore A. Kaldis
kal...@worldnet.att.net
AZGuy
failing to stop since the cops would never sit there looking for
violators like they would on a public street. You'd have to be really
unlucky to get cited. In many locations the cops won't even come take
an accident report that happens on a parking lot or respond unless
there are injuries. I routinely ignore such signs. If there is reason
to stop I stop, if not I don't. The types of signs in parking lots I
always obey are the "handicapped parking" and "Fire lane" type.
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 03:46:59 -0600, unli...@private.com wrote:
>Grocery stores always seem to have at least 3 stop signs out in their
>parking lots, near the store front entrances. I have always found
>them really annoying. I can see ONE at the main doors, but there are
>just too many. However, I stop anyhow since it's the law.
>
>BUT.....
>First off, this is private property, can a cop really issue a citation
>if someone runs one of them? The other thing, what if the store is
>closed. Is a driver still required to stop at each one?
>
AZGuy
wrote:
And in more little towns the Justice of the Peace don't give a rat's
behind about what the law technically says and requires. GUILTY!!!
So you not only have to waste time fighting it (and losing) there, but
then you would have to appeal it and waste more time and money.
Kenneth Crudup
"Theodore A. Kaldis" <kal...@worldnet.att.net> says:
>You live in Long Beach and work in Calabasas? Man, that's some commute!
Tell me about it! I used to work in Orange County, then got a new job in
the Valley- but I have a lease that's not up 'till 12/31, so I drive 110mi
per day (unless I stay with friends in L.A.). The new car helps, though!
>(Particularly with the 405 / 101 traffic.)
Nah, it's actually pretty good- I don't get to work 'till 10:30-11:00
most days, and don't leave 'till after 8. The worst part of my whole
commute is the '405 between LAX and the 10- I'll be moving North of
the 10 (most likely; still haven't found a place that wows me as much
as the one I'm in does), so soon it'll be a non-issue.
Theodore A. Kaldis
> Theodore A. Kaldis wrote:
>> You live in Long Beach and work in Calabasas? Man, that's some commute!
> Tell me about it!
I had to commute from Torrance to Sherman Oaks for a while, and that was bad
enough! (Although I suppose that the 101 west/[north]bound isn't that bad in
the A.M.)
> I used to work in Orange County, then got a new job in the Valley-
You know how hot it gets in that valley in the summer?
> but I have a lease that's not up 'till 12/31,
Which is, what?, 11 days away?
> so I drive 110mi per day (unless I stay with friends in L.A.). The new car
> helps, though!
But then, you have a new car with high mileage.
>> (Particularly with the 405 / 101 traffic.)
> Nah, it's actually pretty good- I don't get to work 'till 10:30-11:00 most
> days, and don't leave 'till after 8. The worst part of my whole commute is
> the '405 between LAX and the 10-
And yet I've seen commercials where they're driving on that stretch without a
single other car in sight.
> I'll be moving North of the 10 (most likely; still haven't found a place
> that wows me as much as the one I'm in does),
Have you tried Beverly Hills? (I don't know what your section of PCH looks
like, to me it conjures images of used car lots and seedy motels. I'm sure
that in Long Beach it must not be like that.)
> so soon it'll be a non-issue.
> -Kenny
> --
> Kenneth R. Crudup Sr. SW Engineer, Scott County Consulting, Los Angeles
> H: 3801 E. Pacific Coast Hw #9, Long Beach, CA 90804-2014 (888) 454-8181
> W: 26601 Agoura Road, Calabasas CA 91302-1959 (818) 444-3685
So where's Scott County? Davenport?
Me
That depends on the local law. In Pennsauken, where I live, the cops can
ticket for illegal parking and moving violations on the private parking
lot where I live. I know that for a fact because I received a parking
ticket a few years ago for illegal parking (but on private property)
and the office manager where I live said the ticket was legit.
If this really bothers you, just pick up the phone and call your
local courthouse to ask what the law is in your community.
DTJ
wrote:
>It varies from state to state. I doubt anyone ever gets cited for
>failing to stop since the cops would never sit there looking for
>violators like they would on a public street. You'd have to be really
>unlucky to get cited. In many locations the cops won't even come take
>an accident report that happens on a parking lot or respond unless
>there are injuries. I routinely ignore such signs. If there is reason
>to stop I stop, if not I don't. The types of signs in parking lots I
>always obey are the "handicapped parking" and "Fire lane" type.
Wow.
I didn't realize ANYBODY paid attention to those.
swatcop
(snip)
> But the discussion is about signs on private property, not public, state
> maintained roadways.
> Anyone can purchase a "stop" sign and erect it on their private property.
> But is the law enforcement officer required to enforce the laws concerning
> that particular sign?
> Only if the state, or jurisdiction, directs him to do so.
>
Right. And large parking lots like walmart, etc., regularly use D.O.T.
approved signs, making them enforceable. Now, on the other side of the coin,
if you are driving through some crappy little trailer park with 4 foot high
wooden stop signs that obviously aren't "real" signs, then I'd say NO,
they're NOT enforceable. I've found that usually TWO things must be present
to enforce on "private" property:
1. The signs must be D.O.T. approved.
2. The owner of the property has to want traffic laws enforced on their
property.
I hope that clears up my previous response the the OP.
Kenneth Crudup
>Ever heard of "telecommuting?" :)
I have. *They* haven't.
Kenneth Crudup
"Theodore A. Kaldis" <kal...@worldnet.att.net> says:
>You know how hot it gets in that valley in the summer?
Yeah, but I like it hot. The hotter, the better.
>> I still haven't found a place that wows me as much as the one I'm in does),
>Have you tried Beverly Hills?
I've tried a lot of places. I like new, modern construction (like the place
I'm in now). I have a fair budget, but there's always *something* about
all the places that meet my "newness factor" that keep me reserved. I don't
want to have to move again 'till I buy a house, so I want to move to some
place I can expect to stay happy in for a year or two. There's a place off
Wilshire I'll probably end up in. Everything I do (but work) is in L.A., so
the Valley is out.
>(I don't know what your section of PCH looks like, to me it conjures images
>of used car lots and seedy motels.
Yeah, that's pretty much my 'hood. My complex is brand new, though. I'm the
first person to occupy my unit.
>So where's Scott County? Davenport?
Mississippi. It's where my (great-great-great-... grand)-father's family settled
into after slavery ended.
Hi Ho Silver
$On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 15:46:40 -0700, AZGuy <jimnaz...@cox.net>
$wrote:
$ The types of signs in parking lots I
$>always obey are the "handicapped parking" and "Fire lane" type.
$
$Wow.
$
$I didn't realize ANYBODY paid attention to those.
Hardly anyone does, and it's a shame that the folks who run
malls generally don't pay much attention to enforcing them, either.
Ditto for people who park in other miscellaneous "no parking" areas
like the aisles in parking lots.
I'd be extremely ticked off if a mall rent-a-cop were to go after
me for not stopping for a mall stop sign (which, like a previous poster
suggested, I stop for if there's a reason to, and don't if there
isn't) given that they would be much better off going after the
@$$holes who clog up fire lanes and handicap spots.
--
.--------------------------------------. sil...@stevedunn.ca
|Silver, perpetually searching for SNTF|------------------------------
`--------------------------------------' a vaguely phallic .signature
Matthew Russotto
Interesting. That puts section 6113 in direct conflict with Section 3101.
--
Matthew T. Russotto mrus...@speakeasy.net
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of
a modicum of security is a very expensive vice.
Matthew Russotto
>
> I'd be extremely ticked off if a mall rent-a-cop were to go after
>me for not stopping for a mall stop sign (which, like a previous poster
>suggested, I stop for if there's a reason to, and don't if there
>isn't) given that they would be much better off going after the
>@$$holes who clog up fire lanes and handicap spots.
You can't clog up the fire lanes at the King of Prussia Mall because
the mall rent-a-cops are already clogging them up. (BTW, there's also a
real police station at the mall)
As for the handicapped spots, fuck 'em. I've been injured recently
and have had to hobble my way (occasionally on crutches) past acres of
handicapped spots either empty or filled with apparently fully
ambulatory people with valid handicapped permits. If they ain't going
to be available for me when I need 'em, why should I give a shit if
someone else without a permit takes them? If I could afford the tickets and
community service time (the real cops enforce them) I'd park across
three of them.
Najena
> Interesting. That puts section 6113 in direct conflict with Section
> 3101.
>
How? Read that "except where a different place is specifically referred to
in a particular provision" part.
Matthew Russotto
6113 doesn't make any restrictions or prohibitions of its own. It
concerns enforcement, not regulation. Part III (except the section on
serious traffic offenses and the school bus provision) is inapplicable based
on 3101. So it's not clear what sections you could be charged with if
a cop ticketed you on private land covered under 6113.
Najena
> In article <Xns945EA90EC16...@63.218.45.20>,
> Najena <naj...@coldmail.com> wrote:
>>russ...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) wrote in
>>news:ou2dnS3oGNV...@speakeasy.net:
>>
>>> Interesting. That puts section 6113 in direct conflict with Section
>>> 3101.
>>>
>>
>>How? Read that "except where a different place is specifically
>>referred to in a particular provision" part.
>
> 6113 doesn't make any restrictions or prohibitions of its own. It
> concerns enforcement, not regulation. Part III (except the section on
> serious traffic offenses and the school bus provision) is inapplicable
> based on 3101. So it's not clear what sections you could be charged
> with if a cop ticketed you on private land covered under 6113.
6113 allows the enforcement of speed limits and traffic control devices on
private property. What part of this is not clear? Examples of traffic
control devices are yield, do not enter, and no U-turn. A speed limit
should be self-explanatory. 6113 can stand alone; it does not need to be
validated by 3101.
Also, Part III is not inapplicable based on 3101 because 3101 allows
another provision to extend Part III violations to places other than
highways. So, 3101 does not invalidate 6113.
Brian Macke
> BUT.....
> First off, this is private property, can a cop really issue a citation
> if someone runs one of them? The other thing, what if the store is
> closed. Is a driver still required to stop at each one?
As many have posted, this is dependent on the local laws (I'll post more
useful information about that in a minute). One thing that hasn't been
posted yet is that this is private property. If you run that stop sign and
the property owner sees fit, they could deny you access to their property
in the future. Break that and you're not dealing with a traffic violation,
that'd be trespassing.
> Does anyone know what the legal requirements would be in this case?
> Could I be given a citation if I do not stop during these night hours?
> By the way, this store is in Wisconsin.
It's been many years since I took Drivers Education in Wisconsin, but
here's some anecdotal information:
1: Wisconsin's rules of the road (Chapter 346) likes to use the term
"official stop sign" for both permanent and construction signs. This seems
to jive with what other people have said about DOT certified signs. I also
remember seeing DOT stickers on the back of stop signs, but that's a hazy
memory from my childhood.
2. The DOT Driver's Handbook doesn't really cover parking lots, though
they do mention that you should stop when leaving them. If you want to be
a strict constructionist, you could take their silence to mean you can run
the sign.
3. On all of the traffic citations I received in Wisconsin, there was a
key field that had to be filled out. "Street or Intersection" noted where
on the road you were when you violated the law. Parking lots are not
streets, so it's rather hard to write something there if there's no public
street involved.
4. It's not authoritative, but I was told that parking lot stop signs are
advisory and do not carry the weight of law. This doesn't mean you tear
through them sending pedestrians fleeing, but you should at least slow
down and look for pedestrians. In this way you can think of those stop
signs as somewhere near a Yield or School Crossing sign.
But your best bet is to call your county attorney's office. Tell them
exactly what you posted here and you highlight that you don't want to run
afoul of the law. Take their response as canon, and write down the name of
the person you speak to. Most of the time your traffic violations are
handled by that county attorney's office.
(I'm not a lawyer. If you think this is legal advice, you're probably not
one either. Talk to a real lawyer for actual legal advice.)
--
-Brian James Macke ma...@strangelove.net
"In order to get that which you wish for, you must first get that which
builds it." -- Unknown
Raneman
> >Grocery stores always seem to have at least 3 stop signs out in their
> >parking lots, near the store front entrances. I have always found
> >them really annoying. I can see ONE at the main doors, but there are
> >just too many. However, I stop anyhow since it's the law.
> >First off, this is private property, can a cop really issue a citation
> >if someone runs one of them? The other thing, what if the store is
> >closed. Is a driver still required to stop at each one?
> >to the Walmart is a strip mall with a large grocery store. The whole
> >mall forms an "L" shape. There is only one entrance to the shared
> >parking lot, so in order to get to Walmart, a driver has to pass the
> >grocery store first, which means stopping four times at this location.
> >I often go to Walmart late at night. and think it is just plain
> >rediculous having to stop at each sign when the grocery store is
> >closed.
> >Could I be given a citation if I do not stop during these night hours?
> >By the way, this store is in Wisconsin.
>
> of the signs are not properly place, usually too low or on the wrong side
> of the road, so they are not enforceable.
> ------------
> Alex
In California - stop signs on private property are not legal stop
signs and stopping thereat is not required or enforceable, but it is
just courtesy, as is stopping for the people that wander about a parking
lot without any concern that cars might be a detriment to their travel
and "expect" cars to stop for them while they are in pedestrian mode
regardless of where they are walking. Some of these people are mindless
nincompoops and do not "try" to fit in with what the cars are doing,
rightfully so, or even try to avoid their travel, walking in a safe
manner to avoid any conflict.
Gordon
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C.R. Krieger
news:400A69...@VERIZON.NET...
> Alex Rodriguez wrote:
> >
> > In article <hjh5uvc2hjqam6cmo...@4ax.com>,
unli...@private.com
> > says...
> > >Grocery stores always seem to have at least 3 stop signs out in their
> > >parking lots, near the store front entrances. I have always found
> > >them really annoying. I can see ONE at the main doors, but there are
> > >just too many. However, I stop anyhow since it's the law.
It is *not* 'the law'.
> > >First off, this is private property, can a cop really issue a citation
> > >if someone runs one of them?
No. It is a *private* traffic control device not authorized under law and
is *not* enforceable by city or state law enforcement officers. The only
enforcement available is for the store to tell you not to come back. What
are the odds they'll do that? (I suppose, in an extreme situation, a 'mall
cop' could request local police to cite one for 'disorderly conduct'. I'd
give it a snowball's chance in hell of getting to court without being
dismissed.)
> > > The other thing, what if the store is
> > >closed. Is a driver still required to stop at each one?
If you don't have to stop when it's *open*, I think the answer to this is
pretty obvious.
> > >I often go to Walmart late at night. and think it is just plain
> > >rediculous having to stop at each sign when the grocery store is
> > >closed.
Then don't.
> > >Does anyone know what the legal requirements would be in this case?
Try not to run over the signs as you pass them.
> > >Could I be given a citation if I do not stop during these night hours?
No.
> > >By the way, this store is in Wisconsin.
So is my law office.
> > If the store is closed, I wouldn't worry about. I would also add that
many
> > of the signs are not properly place, usually too low or on the wrong
side
> > of the road, so they are not enforceable.
They are unenforceable regardless of where they're placed.
> In California - stop signs on private property are not legal stop
> signs and stopping thereat is not required or enforceable, but it is
> just courtesy,
It *is* a courtesy to stop for someone who expects it and who could be
harmed or inconvenienced by it. I therefore stop *under those
circumstances*, but not otherwise. As for those self-righteous assholes who
flip me a bird from 100 feet away because I 'ran' the stop sign, if you're
reading this, you may now understand why I laughed at you.
The *better* solution, IMO, is what the local Fleet Farm just put up: "Stop
for pedestrian in crosswalk" signs. Equally unenforceable, but a more
accurate request for what they *want* you to do.
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; done that)