Re: JUDGE ORDERS OBAMA TO PRODUCE BIRTH CERTIFICATE
Cary Kittrell
> http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon252.htm
>
>
> By Jon Christian Dryer
>
> October 3, 2008
>
> NewsWithViews.com
>
> On September 29, 2008 US District Court Judge R. Barclay Surrick, the
> federal magistrate for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania ruled in the
> matter of Philip J. Berg vs Barack Hussein Obama, et al as the world was
> distracted by the $700 billion subprime mortgage crisis. Obama signed a
> breathe of relief as the mainstream media chose to ignore the question:
> "Can Senator Barack Hussein Obama legally seek the office of President
> of the United States?"
So, when Obama wins, we'll end up with President Biden?
OK.
-- cary
>
> The flap began in June when National Review's Jim Geraghty raised the
> question and asked the Obama Campaign to release a copy of his birth
> certificate in order to prove that he actually was born in the United
> States. (Reports had previously surfaced claiming that Obama's Kenyan
> grandmother, Sarah Hussein Obama, told reporters that Obama was not born
> in Hawaii, but in Kenya. She reportedly told reporters that when her
> son, Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. returned to Kenya he was accompanied by a
> pregnant white wife who was close to term.)
>
> Obama's family did not take to Stanley Ann Dunham Obama well according
> to Sarah Obama because she was white. Shortly after she arrived in Kenya
> Stanley Ann decided to return to Hawaii because she did not like how
> Muslim men treated their wives in Kenya. However, because she was near
> term the airline would not let her fly until after the birth of her
> baby. Obama's grandmother said the baby was born in Kenya and that
> shortly after Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. was born, Stanley Ann returned
> to Hawaii.
>
> Purportedly, when she arrived back in Hawaii, Stanley Anne registered
> her son's live birth as an event which had just happened�in Hawaii. This
> supposition is based on the appearance, shortly after Nov. 6, 2007, of a
> Hawaiian birth certificate that was issued, as a duplicate birth
> certificate, by the State of Hawaii to a US Senator who requested it.
>
> While the Internet screamed that the birth certificate, which appeared
> on the Obama Campaign's "Fight The Smears" website and was also
> downloaded and used by far left blogger Markos Zuniga on his website,
> Daily Kos, it was not an electronic image concocted by Daily KOs as was
> hypothesized by a self-described cyvbersleuth who uses the cyber
> pseudonym Techdude. It was the real McCoy�even if it was issued as a
> political favor to a prospective Democratic presidential candidate by a
> Democrat official in Hawaii. The county clerk who issued the document,
> which purports to be a copy of an original document, was date stamped
> "Nov. 6, 2007" on the reverse side of the birth certificate in blue ink
> which bled through and is visible on the front of the electronic image.
>
> Attorney Philip J. Berg, the former head of the Montgomery County.
> Pennsylvania Democratic Party and a former member of the Democratic
> State Convention and, reportedly a Hillary Clinton supporter, wanted to
> learn the truth from the myriad of rumors that also suggested that Sen.
> Obama may also have been a citizen of Indonesia. The only consistent
> part of the story was Stanley Ann returning to Hawaii to claim he had
> been in the United States and was a US citizen. In his ruling, Judge
> Surrick noted that the "...cause came before the United States District
> Court Judge, Honorable R. Barclay Surrick on defendant Barack Hussein
> Obama and the Democratic National Committee's motion to dismiss." The
> order continued, "Having reviewed the motion and plaintiff's opposition
> to said motion and for good cause shown, it is hereby ordered that the
> motion to dismiss pursuant to F.R.C.P. 12(b)(1) and 12(b)(6) is denied.
> It is further order of this court that the following discovery is to be
> turned over to plaintiff within three (3) days.
>
> 1. Obama's "vault" version (certified copy of his "original" long
> version) birth certificate; and 2. a certified copy of Obama's
> Certificate of Citizenship; 3. a certified copy of Obama's oath of
> allegiance."
>
> In his original filing, Berg specifically asked for those three items.
> Berg told the court that "...at the time Plaintiff's complaint was
> filed, Plaintiff was requesting protections from the court in order to
> stop Obama from being nominated by the DNC as the Democratic
> Presidential Nominee as Obama is not eligible to serve as President of
> the United States. However, Obama was nominated by the DNC...For that
> reason, Plaintiff must amend his complaint and will be amending this
> complaint to file a First Amendment complaint...."
>
> Berg argued that he felt it was the role of the Federal Election
> Commission to ensure that presidential and congressional candidates are
> eligible to hold the positions for which they were seeking, and that
> those candidates run a fair and legitimate campaign. "In vetting the
> presidential candidate," Berg argued, "the DNC and the FEC are required
> to ensure the eligibility requirements pursuant to our Constitution are
> met and the Presidential nominee, if elected, is qualified and eligible
> to serve pursuant to our United States Constitution. In order to be
> eligible to run for the Office of President of the United States, you
> must be a "natural born" citizen.
>
> "There appears to be no question that Defendant Obama's mother, Stanley
> Ann Dunham, was a US citizen. It is also undisputed, however, that his
> father, Barack Obama, Sr., was a citizen of Kenya. Obama's parents,
> according to divorce recorded, were married on or about February 2,
> 1961.
>
> "Defendant Obama claims he was born in Honolulu, Hawaii. on August 4,
> 1961 and it is uncertain in which hospital he claims to have been born.
> Obama's grandmother on his father's side, his half-brother and
> half-sister all claim Obama was born not in Hawaii but in Kenya. reports
> reflect that Obama's mother traveled to Kenya during her pregnancy;
> however, she was prevented from boarding a flight from Kenya to Hawaii.
> at her late stage of pregnancy (which apparently are normal
> restrictions, to avoid births during flights). By these reports, Stanley
> Ann Dunham Obama gave birth to Obama in Kenya, after which she flew home
> and registered Obama's birth. There are records of a "registry of birth"
> for Obama, on or about August 8, 1961 in the public records office in
> Hawaii."
>
> Berg's investigators revealed that Obama's own half-sister Maya
> Soetoro�with whom he was raised�seemed not to know where her own brother
> was born. In the Nov., 2004 interview by the Rainbow Newsletter Maya
> Soetoro said Obama was born on Aug. 4, 1961 at Queens Medical Center in
> Honolulu, Hawaii. In February, 2008 Maya was interviewed by the Star
> Bulletin. This time she told reporters that Obama was born on August 4,
> 1961 at the Kaliolani Medical Center for Women and Children. On June 9,
> 2008 Wayne Madsen, a journalist with Online Journal published an article
> in which he said a research team went to Mombassa, Kenya and located a
> Certificate registering the live birth of Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. to
> his father, a Kenyan citizen and his mother, a US citizen.
>
> Berg's argument to the court was that under the US Nationality Act of
> 1940, Section 317 (b), a minor child follows the naturalization and
> citizenship status of his or her custodial parent. In Obama's case, Berg
> argued, a minor child follows the naturalization and citizenship status
> of his or her custodial father. Obama's Indonesian stepfather, Lolo
> Soetora signed a statement acknowledging Obama as his son, giving Obama
> natural Indonesian citizenship, which explains the name "Barry Soetoro"
> and his citizenship listed as Indonesian. Loss of US citizenship, under
> US law in effect in 1967 required that foreign citizenship be achieved
> through "application." Which, according to Berg, is precisely what
> happened to Obama when his mother married Soetoro and the family moved
> to Indonesia.
>
> When Obama and his mother moved to Indonesia, Obama had already been
> enrolled in school�something that could not have happened under
> Indonesian law if Soetoro had not signed an acknowledgment (the
> application) affirming that Obama was his son, it deemed his son to an
> Indonesian State citizen. (Citizenship of Republic of Indonesia, Law No.
> 9 of 1992 dated 31 mar. 1992, Indonesia Civil Code): "...State children
> of Indonesia include: (viii) children who are born outside of legal
> marriage from foreign State citizen mother who are acknowledged by
> father who is Indonesian State citizen as his children and that
> acknowledgment is made prior to children reaching 18 years of age or
> prior to marriage; Republic of Indonesia Constitution, 1945."
> Furthermore, under Indonesian law, if a resident Indonesian citizen
> married a foreigner�in this case, Lolo Soetoro marrying Stanley Ann
> Obama�she was required to renounce her US citizenship.
>
> In his lawsuit, Berg demanded a copy of Obama's Certificate of
> Citizenship, a document Obama must have applied for to regain his
> citizenship�which was lost in Indonesia. He will have that document only
> if the proper paperwork was filed with the US State Department when
> Obama returned to Hawaii in 1971 since that is the only way Obama could
> regain his US "natural born" status. Berg is convinced that Obama was
> never naturalized in the United States after his return. Obama returned
> to his maternal grandparents in Hawaii without his mother. Since she is
> the only one who could have filed for the reinstatement of his
> citizenship, it is unlikely it ever happened. If it did, his Certificate
> of Citizenship would affirm his right to seek the office of President.
> Without it, Barack Obama is just another resident alien who can't
> legally hold his seat in the US Senate.
>
>
>
>
>
>
JeePee
> http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon252.htm
>
>
> By Jon Christian Dryer
>
> October 3, 2008
>
> NewsWithViews.com
>
> On September 29, 2008 US District Court Judge R. Barclay Surrick, the
> federal magistrate for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania ruled in the
> matter of Philip J. Berg vs Barack Hussein Obama, et al as the world was
> distracted by the $700 billion subprime mortgage crisis. Obama signed a
> breathe of relief as the mainstream media chose to ignore the question:
> "Can Senator Barack Hussein Obama legally seek the office of President
> of the United States?"
>
> Without it, Barack Obama is just another resident alien who can't
> legally hold his seat in the US Senate.
>
resident - president
It's just one letter. Who cares.
--
JeePee
So when you see your neighbor carryin' somethin',
Help him with his load,
And don't go mistaking Paradise
For that home across the road.
- Bob Dylan -
The New England Patriots - American Football at it's best
http://www.patriots.com/
Husky
As his mother was a US Citizen, he could have been born on Mars and
would still be a US Citizen.
His being born in Hawaii is just icing on the cake.
How do like them apples?
Mark K. Bilbo
> In article <Xns9B2C6241...@62.141.42.83> Hans Der Veiner <han...@derveiner.de> writes:
>> http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon252.htm
>>
>>
>> By Jon Christian Dryer
>>
>> October 3, 2008
>>
>> NewsWithViews.com
>>
>> On September 29, 2008 US District Court Judge R. Barclay Surrick, the
>> federal magistrate for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania ruled in the
>> matter of Philip J. Berg vs Barack Hussein Obama, et al as the world was
>> distracted by the $700 billion subprime mortgage crisis. Obama signed a
>> breathe of relief as the mainstream media chose to ignore the question:
>> "Can Senator Barack Hussein Obama legally seek the office of President
>> of the United States?"
>
> So, when Obama wins, we'll end up with President Biden?
Yes.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.
"Climb out of your holes people!"
- Dr. House, on faith
clouddreamer
It doesn't take a lot of work to find Obama's BC:
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/Polarik/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg
..
--
We must change the way we live,
or the climate will do it for us.
Douglas Berry
<han...@derveiner.de> carved the following into the hard stone of
alt.atheism
>The only consistent
>part of the story was Stanley Ann returning to Hawaii to claim he had
>been in the United States and was a US citizen.
His mother was a US citizen. Therefore, under Federal law, Barack was
a citizen.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
BDK
St...@Cllmate.change.net says...
> Hans Der Veiner wrote: <snip>
>
>
> It doesn't take a lot of work to find Obama's BC:
>
> http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/Polarik/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg
>
> ..
>
>
>
The kooks who think he wasn't born in the US need to read the bottom of
the certificate:
"This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any
court proceeding"
Case closed. Kooktards wrong again. Nothing changes.
--
BDK
BDK Klan leader?
kOOk Magnet!
NJJ CLUB #1
Shillmaster
clouddreamer
> On 03 Oct 2008, clouddreamer <St...@Cllmate.change.net> posted some
> news:iMudnQRknKMfM3vV...@supernews.com:
>> Hans Der Veiner wrote: <snip>
>>
>>
>> It doesn't take a lot of work to find Obama's BC:
>
> with one like that. It's not acceptable to the State Department or the
> Armed Forces. You couldn't adopt a kid using birth certificates of that
> type, I don't care the little legal disclaimer on the bottom says. Most
> courts simply won't accept it, and they will demand a certified FULL
> FORM copy of the original birth certificate from the issuing state.
Picky picky. It's irrelevant anyway. His mother was born in the US. That
makes him a citizen.
If that wasn't the case, then McCain wouldn't be a citizen. He was born
in Panama.
..
--
We must change the way we live
Or the climate will do it for us.
Mark K. Bilbo
> On 03 Oct 2008, clouddreamer <St...@Cllmate.change.net> posted some
> news:iMudnQRknKMfM3vV...@supernews.com:
>
>>
>>
>> It doesn't take a lot of work to find Obama's BC:
>
> with one like that. It's not acceptable to the State Department or the
> Armed Forces. You couldn't adopt a kid using birth certificates of that
> type, I don't care the little legal disclaimer on the bottom says. Most
> courts simply won't accept it, and they will demand a certified FULL
> FORM copy of the original birth certificate from the issuing state.
>
> produce the supporting document for inspection without delay. He is
> campaigning for the highest public office in the USA. There is no
> reason for a citizen in good standing to refuse to provide evidence of
> their initial eligibility.
>
> If he has nothing to hide, he'll produce the full form copy as ordered
> and this will all go away. If he continues to stall, he has a problem,
> a big one.
So, you mean the entire Republican party and the Bush administration has
conspired to cover up that a Democrat isn't legally able to hold office?
Wow. That's impressive...
Mark K. Bilbo
> Hans Der Veiner wrote: <snip>
>
>
> It doesn't take a lot of work to find Obama's BC:
>
> http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/Polarik/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg
Oh no! Don't you get it? The entire Bush administration conspired to
cover up that Obama isn't really a citizen. I think Cheney created the
fake certificate...
Mark K. Bilbo
> On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:39:32 +0000 (UTC) Hans Der Veiner
> <han...@derveiner.de> carved the following into the hard stone of
> alt.atheism
>
>> The only consistent
>> part of the story was Stanley Ann returning to Hawaii to claim he had
>> been in the United States and was a US citizen.
>
> His mother was a US citizen. Therefore, under Federal law, Barack was
> a citizen.
Not to mention being born in the US.
Unlike McCain...
Kent Wills
<pengu...@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:39:32 +0000 (UTC) Hans Der Veiner
><han...@derveiner.de> carved the following into the hard stone of
>alt.atheism
>
>>The only consistent
>>part of the story was Stanley Ann returning to Hawaii to claim he had
>>been in the United States and was a US citizen.
>
>His mother was a US citizen. Therefore, under Federal law, Barack was
>a citizen.
His having been born in the U.S. has even more to do with it.
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons...
for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
The Honorable Dr. Rocky Roads Presiding Judge
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:nokir5-...@blaze.blaze.net...
> Cary Kittrell wrote:
> >
> >
> > So, when Obama wins, we'll end up with President Biden?
>
> Yes.
YHBT
Ken Chaddock
> On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:39:32 +0000 (UTC) Hans Der Veiner
> <han...@derveiner.de> carved the following into the hard stone of
> alt.atheism
>
>
>>The only consistent
>>part of the story was Stanley Ann returning to Hawaii to claim he had
>>been in the United States and was a US citizen.
>
>
> His mother was a US citizen. Therefore, under Federal law, Barack was
> a citizen.
Irrelevant, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a US Citizen and Governor or
California but he IS NOT eligible to become President because he wasn't
BORN in the United States.
If Obama wasn't born in the US, he can't run for President. If his
campaign is illegal, so is Biden's so he probably couldn't become
President either.
I don't know what would happen then, Speaker of the House ?
...Ken
Ken Chaddock
> Hans Der Veiner wrote:
>
>> On 03 Oct 2008, clouddreamer <St...@Cllmate.change.net> posted some
>> news:iMudnQRknKMfM3vV...@supernews.com:
>>
>>> Hans Der Veiner wrote: <snip>
>>>
>>>
>>> It doesn't take a lot of work to find Obama's BC:
>>
>>
>> That is not an acceptable birth certificate. Try getting a passport
>> with one like that. It's not acceptable to the State Department or the
>> Armed Forces. You couldn't adopt a kid using birth certificates of that
>> type, I don't care the little legal disclaimer on the bottom says. Most
>> courts simply won't accept it, and they will demand a certified FULL
>> FORM copy of the original birth certificate from the issuing state.
>
>
> Picky picky. It's irrelevant anyway. His mother was born in the US. That
> makes him a citizen.
Again, that's irrelevant, to be eligible for the Presidency you have
had to be born on US Terrority...the status of your parents is irrelevant.
> If that wasn't the case, then McCain wouldn't be a citizen. He was born
> in Panama.
No McCain was born on US Terrority. The Canal Zone was considered US
Territory.
...Ken
clouddreamer
> clouddreamer wrote:
>
>> Hans Der Veiner wrote:
>>
>>> On 03 Oct 2008, clouddreamer <St...@Cllmate.change.net> posted some
>>> news:iMudnQRknKMfM3vV...@supernews.com:
>>>
>>>> Hans Der Veiner wrote: <snip>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't take a lot of work to find Obama's BC:
>>>
>>>
>>> That is not an acceptable birth certificate. Try getting a passport
>>> with one like that. It's not acceptable to the State Department or the
>>> Armed Forces. You couldn't adopt a kid using birth certificates of that
>>> type, I don't care the little legal disclaimer on the bottom says. Most
>>> courts simply won't accept it, and they will demand a certified FULL
>>> FORM copy of the original birth certificate from the issuing state.
>>
>>
>> Picky picky. It's irrelevant anyway. His mother was born in the US.
>> That makes him a citizen.
>
> Again, that's irrelevant, to be eligible for the Presidency you have
> had to be born on US Terrority...the status of your parents is irrelevant.
He was born in Hawaii.
Trying to say otherwise just shows the desperation of the right. They
can't attack his policies so they attack him. Now you have Palin saying
that Obama is "palling" around with "terrorists." Of course, those in
the know, know that Ayers was never convicted of anything and only had
the odd association with Ayers....like thousands of other Americans. Are
they all "palling" around terrorists too????
Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful.
..
--
We must change the way we live,
or the climate will do it for us.
Free Lunch
<St...@Cllmate.change.net> wrote in alt.atheism:
Republicans have been behaving in that disgraceful manner ever since
they decided to go after the Southern White Racist vote with the
"Southern Strategy". What do they need Lincoln as a hero for any more?
Douglas Berry
<chad...@hfx.eastlink.ca> carved the following into the hard stone of
alt.atheism
>Douglas Berry wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:39:32 +0000 (UTC) Hans Der Veiner
>> <han...@derveiner.de> carved the following into the hard stone of
>> alt.atheism
>>
>>
>>>The only consistent
>>>part of the story was Stanley Ann returning to Hawaii to claim he had
>>>been in the United States and was a US citizen.
>>
>>
>> His mother was a US citizen. Therefore, under Federal law, Barack was
>> a citizen.
>
> Irrelevant, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a US Citizen and Governor or
>California but he IS NOT eligible to become President because he wasn't
>BORN in the United States.
Yup. He was born and raised as a citizen of Austria with Austrian
parents, served briefly in the Austrian Army, and entered the United
States as a resident alien before applying for natualization.
Assume that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. His mother was an American
citizen, a resident of a US state, and was in Kenya on a visit. Barack
Obama would be a US citizen under federal law.
See the difference here?
> If Obama wasn't born in the US, he can't run for President. If his
>campaign is illegal, so is Biden's so he probably couldn't become
>President either.
> I don't know what would happen then, Speaker of the House ?
So, you feel competent to speak on US citizenship laws but don't now
the line of succession? Biden would remain on the ballot. Assuming the
electoral college refused to certify the vote, the Presidency would go
to the Speaker of the House, one Nancy Pelosi.
Douglas Berry
>
>> Hans Der Veiner wrote:
>>
>>> On 03 Oct 2008, clouddreamer <St...@Cllmate.change.net> posted some
>>> news:iMudnQRknKMfM3vV...@supernews.com:
>>>
>>>> Hans Der Veiner wrote: <snip>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't take a lot of work to find Obama's BC:
>>>
>>>
>>> That is not an acceptable birth certificate. Try getting a passport
>>> with one like that. It's not acceptable to the State Department or the
>>> Armed Forces. You couldn't adopt a kid using birth certificates of that
>>> type, I don't care the little legal disclaimer on the bottom says. Most
>>> courts simply won't accept it, and they will demand a certified FULL
>>> FORM copy of the original birth certificate from the issuing state.
>>
>>
>> Picky picky. It's irrelevant anyway. His mother was born in the US. That
>> makes him a citizen.
>
> Again, that's irrelevant, to be eligible for the Presidency you have
>had to be born on US Terrority...the status of your parents is irrelevant.
Wrong.
Article II: "No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of
the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution,
shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person
be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of
thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the
United States."
Natural born citizen includes children born to American citizens
overseas. That's federal law, by the way. In fact, Obama could have
lived in Kenya from birth to 1994 and still be eligable for the office
of President.
The prohibition is against naturalized citizens.
But since Obama was born in Hawai'i, none of this matters.
>> If that wasn't the case, then McCain wouldn't be a citizen. He was born
>> in Panama.
>
> No McCain was born on US Terrority. The Canal Zone was considered US
>Territory.
A question which was settled when Barry Goldwater was running in 1964.
He was born in the Arizona Territory.
Kerry
"clouddreamer" <St...@Cllmate.change.net> wrote in message
news:q5WdndqQBIDyZHrV...@supernews.com...
Hamas Endorses Obama
On Sunday, April 13, 2008, Aaron Klein and John Batchelor interviewed Ahmed
Yousef, chief political adviser to the Prime Minister of Hamas, on WABC
radio. The interview produced a scoop which, for some reason, has not been
widely publicized: Hamas has endorsed Barack Obama for President. Yousef
said, "We like Mr. Obama and we hope he will win the election." Why? "He has
a vision to change America." Maybe Yousef has some insight into what Obama
means by all these vague references to "change."
Of course, Hamas's taste in American presidents is suspect. Yousef also
described Jimmy Carter, who was about to pay a call on Hamas when the
interview was taped, as "this noble man" who "did an excellent job as
President."
Yousef was asked about Obama's condemnation of Carter's visit with Hamas,
but didn't seem troubled by it. Hamas, he says, understands American
politics; this is the election season, and everyone wants to sound like a
friend of Israel. Nevertheless, he hopes that the Democrats will change
American policies when they take office.
duke
Kittrell) wrote:
>In article <Xns9B2C6241...@62.141.42.83> Hans Der Veiner <han...@derveiner.de> writes:
>> http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon252.htm
>>
>>
>> By Jon Christian Dryer
>>
>> October 3, 2008
>>
>> NewsWithViews.com
>>
>> On September 29, 2008 US District Court Judge R. Barclay Surrick, the
>> federal magistrate for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania ruled in the
>> matter of Philip J. Berg vs Barack Hussein Obama, et al as the world was
>> distracted by the $700 billion subprime mortgage crisis. Obama signed a
>> breathe of relief as the mainstream media chose to ignore the question:
>> "Can Senator Barack Hussein Obama legally seek the office of President
>> of the United States?"
>
>So, when Obama wins, we'll end up with President Biden?
>OK.
If he can't produce in the next 30 days, we'll for sure end up with President
McCain.
The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
clouddreamer
Yeah right. Do you really think he got this far into campaign without
providing the necessary paperwork????
Amazing to what lows you'll go to discredit the opposition. Oh
wait...McCain is getting that desperate now too...
Disgraceful. You must be so proud of your electoral system...
--
We must change the way we live
Or the climate will do it for us.
The Honorable Dr. Rocky Roads Presiding Judge
"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:o0ehe49c14q5u3o7p...@4ax.com...
> >In article <Xns9B2C6241...@62.141.42.83> Hans Der Veiner
<han...@derveiner.de> writes:
> >> http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon252.htm
> >>
President
> McCain.
Before you go jumping to conclusions you might want to find out why the page
at the URL above has been removed from the Server.
BTW you can see other pages are still on the Server by going to:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter
And lets say we end up with McCain. McCain's Birth Certificate probably
shows he fought in the Civil War and doesn't have long to live so we could
end up with a winking Pregnant & Pro-life Pentecostal President Palin.
And to think. A lot of us thought Cheney was a joke.
Deadrat
news:ZLRFk.199$Oj.197@edtnps83:
> Douglas Berry wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:39:32 +0000 (UTC) Hans Der Veiner
>> <han...@derveiner.de> carved the following into the hard stone of
>> alt.atheism
>>
>>
>>>The only consistent
>>>part of the story was Stanley Ann returning to Hawaii to claim he had
>>>been in the United States and was a US citizen.
>>
>>
>> His mother was a US citizen. Therefore, under Federal law, Barack was
>> a citizen.
>
> Irrelevant, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a US Citizen and Governor or
> California but he IS NOT eligible to become President because he
> wasn't BORN in the United States.
> If Obama wasn't born in the US, he can't run for President.
Please provide evidence for this statement. If Obama isn't a "natural
born" citizen, then he cannot legally take office as President. Where
does it say he can't run for President?
> If his campaign is illegal, so is Biden's so he probably couldn't
> become President either.
Even assuming his campaign is "illegal," how does that affect Biden's
qualifications to become President?
> I don't know
I think you can stop right there.
Deadrat
No, it wasn't. You can pretty much tell because we gave it back. It was
territory in which a treaty granted us sovereign powers. That's probably
enough, but the Supreme Court would have to say one way or the other for
us to be sure.
> ...Ken
>
Deadrat
news:b10ge4dpdhvuafsrf...@4ax.com:
> On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 22:04:41 GMT Ken Chaddock
> <chad...@hfx.eastlink.ca> carved the following into the hard stone of
> alt.atheism
>>Douglas Berry wrote:
>>> On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:39:32 +0000 (UTC) Hans Der Veiner
>>> <han...@derveiner.de> carved the following into the hard stone of
>>> alt.atheism
>>>
>>>
>>>>The only consistent
>>>>part of the story was Stanley Ann returning to Hawaii to claim he had
>>>>been in the United States and was a US citizen.
>>>
>>>
>>> His mother was a US citizen. Therefore, under Federal law, Barack was
>>> a citizen.
>>
>> Irrelevant, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a US Citizen and Governor or
>>California but he IS NOT eligible to become President because he wasn't
>>BORN in the United States.
>
> Yup. He was born and raised as a citizen of Austria with Austrian
> parents, served briefly in the Austrian Army, and entered the United
> States as a resident alien before applying for natualization.
>
> Assume that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. His mother was an American
> citizen, a resident of a US state, and was in Kenya on a visit. Barack
> Obama would be a US citizen under federal law.
It is annoyingly difficult to tell in these cases. One must consider the
following factors to determine whether a child born abroad is a citizen:
- the national status of the parents
(citizen, national non-citizen, alien),
- the marital status of the parents,
- the military service status of the parents,
- the date the child was born, and
- where the child was born.
For purposes of this example, the claim is that Barack Obama was born in
Kenya in 1961 to a married couple, a US mother and a Kenyan father. In
this case, for Barack to have acquired derivative citizenship, Barack's
mother must have lived in the US for ten years, five of which were after
her fourteenth birthday.
So from the biographical details we're told, your conclusion is correct:
Barack Obama is a US citizen.
> See the difference here?
This is a difference without a distinction. Both Ahnold and Barack under
the fantasy hypothetical are naturalized citizens, i.e., citizens by
federal law. Neither would be eligible to be President since neither
would be natural born or non-naturalized, i.e., citizens by the 14th
Amendment to the Constitution.
Of course, Obama was born in Hawaii, so all this is moot.
>> If Obama wasn't born in the US, he can't run for President. If his
>>campaign is illegal, so is Biden's so he probably couldn't become
>>President either.
>> I don't know what would happen then, Speaker of the House ?
>
> So, you feel competent to speak on US citizenship laws but don't now
> the line of succession? Biden would remain on the ballot. Assuming the
> electoral college refused to certify the vote, the Presidency would go
> to the Speaker of the House, one Nancy Pelosi.
Careful. Let's assume the hypothetically ineligile Obama obtains a
majority of the electors, and McCain has the rest. The electoral college
would almost certainly certify their vote. The electors are partisans of
the candidates. The electoral college results would go to the new
Congress, which would disqualify the Obama electors by majority vote of
each house *assuming they acted with regard to their oath to uphold the
Constitution.* Now no candidate now has a majority, since only McCain is
left, and the House of Representatives decides.
The House decides by having each state delegation vote. A quorum is 2/3
of the state delgations, and the winner needs a majority of the quorum.
Presumably, state delegations vote amongst themselves, and any state with
a delegation with a majority of Republican reps would vote for McCain,
and state delegations with a majority of Democratic reps wouldn't vote.
That's not certain, of course. A particular rep is free to vote for the
candidate who won his state or his district or anyone from the list from
the electoral college (just McCain in this scenario), even if the rep is
from the other party. I've read that the Democrats have a majority in 26
delegations, and that number is not likely to decrease. So let's assume
that they have a majority. Their problem is they don't have anyone to
vote for.
So the Democratic majority delegations either don't report a vote at all
(as though they were tied) and McCain doesn't get a majority or they
absent themselves so a quorum isn't present. So there's no President.
But the electors have also voted for Vice President, and in this
scenario, Biden has the majority. So by the 12th Amendment, Biden
becomes President.
This assumes that Congress may challenge an elector's vote for President
while accepting that elector's vote for Vice President. If the elector
is challenged and neither of his votes counts, then the Senate would have
to choose the VP, with a quorum being 2/3 and a majority of the quorum
required. They could vote only for Palin, however. Let's assume, as
seems likely, that the Democrats will have a majority of the new Senate.
Democratic Senators can refuse to vote or absent themselves, blocking the
election of a VP.
The Presidential Succession Act then takes over. Nancy Pelosi as Speaker
would be next in line. Of course, the House can choose to elect Joe
Biden as Speaker, making him President. In all likelihood, Pelosi would
simply decline to serve, making the Senate's President pro tempore the
President. Presumably, the Senate would have chosen Joe Biden for this
post.
<snip/>
Deadrat
Sorry, but children born to American citizens are naturalized, i.e., they
obtain their citizenship by federal law, not through the Constitution.
Congress cannot define the Constitutional term "natural born." Only the
Supreme Court can clarify what that means. We know from the 14th
Amendment, that natural born (as opposed to naturalized) includes all
citizens born in a state (and subject to US law).
Presumably, you're a natural born citizen if you're born in territory
over which the US is sovereign. This would include DC, incorporated
territories (we don't have any of those now), US coastal areas, US
embassies, US ships in international waters, and US planes in
international air space. But we don't really know.
How about territory that isn't sovereign US soil but over which the US
exercises sovereign power, like the former Canal Zone or Guantanamo? We
don't know that either.
> The prohibition is against naturalized citizens.
>
> But since Obama was born in Hawai'i, none of this matters.
>
>>> If that wasn't the case, then McCain wouldn't be a citizen. He was
>>> born in Panama.
>>
>> No McCain was born on US Terrority. The Canal Zone was considered
>> US Territory.
The Canal Zone was never considered US territory. It was an area in
which a treaty granted us sovereign powers.
> A question which was settled when Barry Goldwater was running in 1964.
> He was born in the Arizona Territory.
When and how was this "settled"?
<snip/>
johnv...@gmail.com
> As his mother was a US Citizen, he could have been born on Mars and
> would still be a US Citizen.
> His being born in Hawaii is just icing on the cake.
> How do like them apples?
Furthermore, under Indonesian law, if a resident Indonesian citizen
married a foreigner in this case, Lolo Soetoro marrying Stanley Ann
Obama she was required to renounce her US citizenship.
Deadrat
5b2154...@l76g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
Indonesian law don't mean squat.
Under *US* law, someone wishing to renounce US law must sign a very
particular oath of renunciation in a foreign country before a US diplomatic
official. In any case, no one may renounce the US citizenship of their
minor children.
Try again.
ne...@millions.com
The parent did not speak for the child when it came to US citizenship
in this case.
Douglas Berry
following into the hard stone of alt.atheism
>news:3d0ge4th24dg9ipug...@4ax.com:
>> A question which was settled when Barry Goldwater was running in 1964.
>> He was born in the Arizona Territory.
>
>When and how was this "settled"?
1964. Since he was born in a US territory, he was considered to be
qualified.
Deadrat
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 06:06:38 GMT Deadrat <a...@b.com> carved the
> following into the hard stone of alt.atheism
>>Douglas Berry <pengu...@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in
>>news:3d0ge4th24dg9ipug...@4ax.com:
>
>
>>> A question which was settled when Barry Goldwater was running in 1964.
>>> He was born in the Arizona Territory.
>>
>>When and how was this "settled"?
>
> 1964. Since he was born in a US territory, he was considered to be
> qualified.
I happen to agree with you. Arizona was an incorporated territory when
Goldwater was born there. (We don't have any more of those. Incorporated
territories, I mean.) The only thing we know for sure is that if you're
born in a state, then you're a natural born citizen, courtesty of the 14th
Amendment. It seems reasonable that if you're born on *any* sovereign US
territory, then you're also a natural born citizen. But that's not
"settled."
> Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
<snip/>
Ken Chaddock
> Ken Chaddock wrote:
>
>> clouddreamer wrote:
>>
>>> Hans Der Veiner wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03 Oct 2008, clouddreamer <St...@Cllmate.change.net> posted some
>>>> news:iMudnQRknKMfM3vV...@supernews.com:
>>>>
>>>>> Hans Der Veiner wrote: <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't take a lot of work to find Obama's BC:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is not an acceptable birth certificate. Try getting a passport
>>>> with one like that. It's not acceptable to the State Department or the
>>>> Armed Forces. You couldn't adopt a kid using birth certificates of
>>>> that
>>>> type, I don't care the little legal disclaimer on the bottom says.
>>>> Most
>>>> courts simply won't accept it, and they will demand a certified FULL
>>>> FORM copy of the original birth certificate from the issuing state.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Picky picky. It's irrelevant anyway. His mother was born in the US.
>>> That makes him a citizen.
>>
>>
>> Again, that's irrelevant, to be eligible for the Presidency you
>> have had to be born on US Terrority...the status of your parents is
>> irrelevant.
>
>
> He was born in Hawaii.
Not according to his (paternal) Grandmother and two (half) brothers...
But if he truly was born in Hawaii, he'll be able to produce an
official, full form birth certificate from the State of
Hawaii...something he has been reluctant to do ;-)
...Ken
Ken Chaddock
ne...@millions.com
Can you tell me your secret means of finding non-existent facts and
then attempting tp spread more bullshit about a subject you know
little?
DCI
Ken Chaddock
> On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 22:04:41 GMT Ken Chaddock
> <chad...@hfx.eastlink.ca> carved the following into the hard stone of
> alt.atheism
>
>>Douglas Berry wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:39:32 +0000 (UTC) Hans Der Veiner
>>><han...@derveiner.de> carved the following into the hard stone of
>>>alt.atheism
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>The only consistent
>>>>part of the story was Stanley Ann returning to Hawaii to claim he had
>>>>been in the United States and was a US citizen.
>>>
>>>
>>>His mother was a US citizen. Therefore, under Federal law, Barack was
>>>a citizen.
>>
>> Irrelevant, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a US Citizen and Governor or
>>California but he IS NOT eligible to become President because he wasn't
>>BORN in the United States.
>
>
> Yup. He was born and raised as a citizen of Austria with Austrian
> parents, served briefly in the Austrian Army, and entered the United
> States as a resident alien before applying for natualization.
>
> Assume that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. His mother was an American
> citizen, a resident of a US state, and was in Kenya on a visit. Barack
> Obama would be a US citizen under federal law.
>
> See the difference here?
There is no difference from the perspective of the Constitutional
requirement to have been born on US Territory. If he was born in Kenya
he was not born on US Terrority.
Also, the story I've read is that his mother wasn't "on a visit" she
had moved to Kenya with her husband, Obama's father, but returned to the
US because of racial hostility toward her from her husband's black family.
>> If Obama wasn't born in the US, he can't run for President. If his
>>campaign is illegal, so is Biden's so he probably couldn't become
>>President either.
>> I don't know what would happen then, Speaker of the House ?
>
>
> So, you feel competent to speak on US citizenship laws but don't now
> the line of succession?
I didn't speak on US citizenship laws, I spoke on the Constitutional
requirement that a President must have been born on US Terrority.
> Biden would remain on the ballot.
Really ? I didn't know someone could run for Vice President if there
was no legimate Presidential candidate...how would that work ?
> Assuming the electoral college refused to certify the vote, the Presidency
> would go to the Speaker of the House, one Nancy Pelosi.
I know the Line of Succession, the question becomes, is the "Line of
Succession" a valid instrument in this case ? Also, what would the
Electorial College DO ?
Theoritically they could give the Presidency to any "eligible" person
(which would be pretty much any US born citizen with a clear criminal
record who isn't a past, two term president). But theoritically, lets
say they did "elect" Pelosi, would she be entitled to a full term or
would a second Presidential Election have to be held ASAP ? I think this
would present a significant constitutional issue either way.
...Ken
Ken Chaddock
Since you've responded I do not have to answer Douglas, thanks.
> Presumably, you're a natural born citizen if you're born in territory
> over which the US is sovereign. This would include DC, incorporated
> territories (we don't have any of those now), US coastal areas, US
> embassies, US ships in international waters, and US planes in
> international air space. But we don't really know.
>
> How about territory that isn't sovereign US soil but over which the US
> exercises sovereign power, like the former Canal Zone or Guantanamo? We
> don't know that either.
Some of these issues are indeed "up in the air" (no pun intended).
>>The prohibition is against naturalized citizens.
>>
>>But since Obama was born in Hawai'i, none of this matters.
Only according to his mother, according to his Grandmother and two half
brothers, he was born in Kenya.
>>>>If that wasn't the case, then McCain wouldn't be a citizen. He was
>>>>born in Panama.
>>>
>>> No McCain was born on US Terrority. The Canal Zone was considered
>>> US Territory.
> The Canal Zone was never considered US territory. It was an area in
> which a treaty granted us sovereign powers.
My wording was a bit misleading I'll agree, the Canal Zone wasn't "US
Terrority" in the same way Alaska is but I've read that the Canal Zone
held a status that was analogus to an Embassy...while it was the
terrority of the country in which it is located, by international treaty
and law it was considered soverign terrority of the nation of the
Embassy...in this case trhe US.
...Ken
Deadrat
I suspect you're just making this up or repeating something you heard.
Barack Obama has seven living half-siblings. Only two were born before
him, and one of those is a half-*sister*. I also understand that his
paternal grandmother is dead, and the woman whom he call grandmother is the
second wife of his grandfather.
Please provide cites for your claims.
> But if he truly was born in Hawaii, he'll be able to produce an
> official, full form birth certificate from the State of
> Hawaii...something he has been reluctant to do ;-)
He's produced a certified copy of his birth certificate. This is a legal
document, set with the state seal and signed by the appropriate state
official that testifies to the state having a record of his birth. There
isn't anything more "official," and there isn't a "full form" or a "half-
empty" form.
> ...Ken
>
Deadrat
The Constitutional requirement is to be "natural born," i.e., not
naturalized by law. Per the 14th Amendment, if you're born in a state,
then you're natural born. No one really knows what happens if you're not
born in a state but under US jurisdiction.
> If he was born in Kenya he was not born on US Terrority.
True, but he was born in Hawaii.
> Also, the story I've read is that his mother wasn't "on a visit"
> she
> had moved to Kenya with her husband, Obama's father, but returned to
> the US because of racial hostility toward her from her husband's black
> family.
Thanks for sharing.
>>> If Obama wasn't born in the US, he can't run for President. If
>>> his
>>>campaign is illegal, so is Biden's so he probably couldn't become
>>>President either.
>>> I don't know what would happen then, Speaker of the House ?
>>
>>
>> So, you feel competent to speak on US citizenship laws but don't now
>> the line of succession?
>
> I didn't speak on US citizenship laws, I spoke on the
> Constitutional
> requirement that a President must have been born on US Terrority.
But that's not the Constitutional requirement. See above.
>> Biden would remain on the ballot.
>
> Really ? I didn't know someone could run for Vice President if
> there
> was no legimate Presidential candidate...how would that work ?
The electoral college votes for each office separately. That's how.
>> Assuming the electoral college refused to certify the vote, the
>> Presidency
> > would go to the Speaker of the House, one Nancy Pelosi.
>
> I know the Line of Succession, the question becomes, is the "Line
> of Succession" a valid instrument in this case ?
Yes, the 20th Amendment allows the Congress to make such a law. But it
wouldn't come to that. There's no problem electing a Vice President in
this case.
> Also, what would the Electorial College DO ?
The electors are partisans. They would vote for their candidate. It
would be up to Congress to reject their votes.
> Theoritically they could give the Presidency to any "eligible"
> person
> (which would be pretty much any US born citizen with a clear criminal
> record who isn't a past, two term president).
Where do you get "clear criminal record"? (I assume you mean someone
without a criminal record.)
> But theoritically, lets
> say they did "elect" Pelosi, would she be entitled to a full term or
> would a second Presidential Election have to be held ASAP ?
The 20th Amendment says she would act until a President or Vice President
qualify. After the national election, it's all up to Congress. There is
no provision for a re-vote.
> I think
> this would present a significant constitutional issue either way.
I'm sure you do. But you're an ignoramus.
> ...Ken
Deadrat
and the state of Hawaii. And the contemporaneous local paper that
printed his birth announcement from information received from the Hawaii
Department of Vital Statistics.
> according to his Grandmother and two half
> brothers, he was born in Kenya.
The relevant (paternal) grandmother is dead. The current grandmother is
the second wife of the grandfather. There's only one half-brother who
was born before Barack. Where are you getting your information?
>
>>>>>If that wasn't the case, then McCain wouldn't be a citizen. He was
>>>>>born in Panama.
>>>>
>>>> No McCain was born on US Terrority. The Canal Zone was
>>>> considered US Territory.
>
>> The Canal Zone was never considered US territory. It was an area in
>> which a treaty granted us sovereign powers.
>
> My wording was a bit misleading I'll agree, the Canal Zone wasn't
> "US
> Terrority" in the same way Alaska is but I've read that the Canal Zone
> held a status that was analogus to an Embassy...while it was the
> terrority of the country in which it is located, by international
> treaty and law it was considered soverign terrority of the nation of
> the Embassy...in this case trhe US.
Where did you read that? An embassy is by international law the
sovereign territory of the country that owns it. The Panama Canal Zone
was territory in which the US operated with significant powers granted by
treaty.
> ...Ken
Mark K. Bilbo
Isn't that nice?
Now, what does that have to do with *our* laws?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.
"Climb out of your holes people!"
- Dr. House, on faith
clouddreamer
> johnv...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Oct 3, 6:55 pm, Husky <Cyns...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> As his mother was a US Citizen, he could have been born on Mars and
>>> would still be a US Citizen.
>>> His being born in Hawaii is just icing on the cake.
>>> How do like them apples?
>>
>> Furthermore, under Indonesian law, if a resident Indonesian citizen
>> married a foreigner in this case, Lolo Soetoro marrying Stanley Ann
>> Obama she was required to renounce her US citizenship.
>
> Isn't that nice?
>
> Now, what does that have to do with *our* laws?
>
And even if she renounced her citizenship, there would be a record of
her declaration that had to be made at the closest consulate or embassy.
Irregardless of that, she could NOT renounce Obama's citizenship as he
was much too young (~6) and he would not have been permitted to do so
himself as a six year old cannot comprehend the nature of that action.
(Just as a six year old cannot be prosecuted for murder if they borrow
daddy's gun and shoot the neighbourhood bully).
Obama returned to the US a few years later (he was around 10), so his
citizenship is not in question.
marty.theg...@gmail.com
> Ken Chaddock <chadd...@hfx.eastlink.ca> wrote innews:MPRFk.204$Oj.145@edtnps83:
>
>
>
>
>
> > clouddreamer wrote:
>
> >> Hans Der Veiner wrote:
>
> >>>news:iMudnQRknKMfM3vV...@supernews.com:
>
> >>>> Hans Der Veiner wrote: <snip>
>
> >>>> It doesn't take a lot of work to find Obama's BC:
>
> >>> That is not an acceptable birth certificate. Try getting a passport
> >>> with one like that. It's not acceptable to the State Department or
> >>> the Armed Forces. You couldn't adopt a kid using birth certificates
> >>> of that type, I don't care the little legal disclaimer on the bottom
> >>> says. Most courts simply won't accept it, and they will demand a
> >>> certified FULL FORM copy of the original birth certificate from the
> >>> issuing state.
>
> >> Picky picky. It's irrelevant anyway. His mother was born in the US.
> >> That makes him a citizen.
>
> > Again, that's irrelevant, to be eligible for the Presidency you
> > have
> > had to be born on US Terrority...the status of your parents is
> > irrelevant.
>
> >> If that wasn't the case, then McCain wouldn't be a citizen. He was
> >> born in Panama.
>
> > No McCain was born on US Terrority. The Canal Zone was considered
> > US Territory.
>
> No, it wasn't. You can pretty much tell because we gave it back. It was
> territory in which a treaty granted us sovereign powers. That's probably
> enough, but the Supreme Court would have to say one way or the other for
> us to be sure.
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Too bad he is a socialist, and is going to ruin what is left of this
country as our founding fathers viewed it.
Corporations do not pay taxes, they pass it on to the consumer! What
fool doesn't get that? Obama for 1!
ne...@millions.com
Buy stock in the corporation.
Deadrat
news:b2a51b3b-6503-4933...@d31g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
> Too bad he is a socialist,
You don't even know what a socialist is.
> and is going to ruin what is left of this
> country as our founding fathers viewed it.
Our founding fathers allowed slavery and exluded women from voting.
We've moved on. Get used to it.
> Corporations do not pay taxes, they pass it on to the consumer!
Only if they can. Harder to do in a global marketplace.
> What fool doesn't get that? Obama for 1!
Most corporations don't pay tax at all. But Exxon-Mobil? Why don't you
think it should pay taxes?
pdl...@gmail.com
Kenya and that the airline that Obama's mother was going to take from
Kenya to Hawaii stopped her from boarding the plane because she was in
a late-term pregnancy.
Oh, and the democratic party has yet to put forth a valid BC, and that
they went OUT OF THEIR WAY to forge a birth certificate to put on
Obama's campaign site.
Deadrat
@j68g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
> What I find interesting is that Obama's father claimed he was born in
> Kenya and that the airline that Obama's mother was going to take from
> Kenya to Hawaii stopped her from boarding the plane because she was in
> a late-term pregnancy.
You're thinking of Sarah Palin.
> Oh, and the democratic party has yet to put forth a valid BC,
The Democratic Party isn't required to do anything. And neither is Obama.
> and that
> they went OUT OF THEIR WAY to forge a birth certificate to put on
> Obama's campaign site.
FactCheck.org has seen the document and has attested to the seal and
signature (stamp) on the document. It's not forged; it's what Hawaii
issues.
Sorry, rightard.
Try again.
While you're at it, think on this. There is a contemporaneous birth
announcement for Obama in a local Hawaiian paper. They got their
information from the state Bureau of Vital Statistics. You think someone
planted the announcement in case the kid ran for President 47 years later?
clouddreamer
> By Jon Christian Dryer
>
> October 3, 2008
>
> NewsWithViews.com
>
> On September 29, 2008 US District Court Judge R. Barclay Surrick, the
> federal magistrate for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania ruled in the
> matter of Philip J. Berg vs Barack Hussein Obama, et al as the world was
> distracted by the $700 billion subprime mortgage crisis. Obama signed a
> breathe of relief as the mainstream media chose to ignore the question:
> "Can Senator Barack Hussein Obama legally seek the office of President
> of the United States?"
<snip>
So much for that frivolous lawsuit...and the so-called "October surprise."
LOL
Dave
> So much for that frivolous lawsuit...and the so-called "October surprise."
>
> http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20081025_Judge_rejects_Montco_lawyer_s_bid_to_have_Obama_removed_from_ballot.html
>
> LOL
>
If you read that article carefully, you will note the reason that the
lawsuit was thrown out. No ruling has been made on Constitutional grounds.
The only reason the suit was tossed is that the judge ruled that Berg had no
standing to bring the case.
In other words, it's still a good case, now we just need to figure out who
should file the complaint, as Berg isn't the proper person to do it. Gotta
give Berg credit for trying though. -Dave
BDK
says...
The judge should have given Berg a nice 21 day vacation where he can be
evaluated and diagnosed with whatever the hell is wrong with him.
--
BDK
BDK Klan leader?
kOOk Magnet!
NJJ CLUB #1
Shillmaster
Deadrat
news:ge05hp$kkm$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
>
>> So much for that frivolous lawsuit...and the so-called "October
>> surprise."
>>
>> http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20081025_Judge_rejects_Montco_la
>> wyer_s_bid_to_have_Obama_removed_from_ballot.html
>>
>> LOL
>>
>
> If you read that article carefully, you will note the reason that the
> lawsuit was thrown out. No ruling has been made on Constitutional
> grounds. The only reason the suit was tossed is that the judge ruled
> that Berg had no standing to bring the case.
>
> In other words, it's still a good case,
How do you figure that, Sparky?
> now we just need to figure out who should file the complaint, as Berg
> isn't the proper person to do it.
So if Berg has no standing, who does? Let us know when you "figure out"
who.
> Gotta give Berg credit for trying though.
Yeah. Heckuva job, Bergie.
> . -Dave
Dave
> evaluated and diagnosed with whatever the hell is wrong with him.
> --
No, Berg's heart is in the right place. Obama might or might not have been
born in Kenya, (probably not), but it is indisputed that Obama was a citizen
of Indonesia. And, as Obama never applied to be a U.S. citizen after his
U.S. citizenry was denounced, that would make Obama currently a ?????
Only term I can think of rhymes with "illegal alien". :)
-Dave
clouddreamer
>> The judge should have given Berg a nice 21 day vacation where he can be
>> evaluated and diagnosed with whatever the hell is wrong with him.
>> --
>
>
> No, Berg's heart is in the right place.
No. Berg looks for reasons to file frivolous lawsuits looking to be
famous. Only a fool would think that Obama would get this far into the
campaign without having been properly vetted.
Unlike the Repugs, the Democrats wouldn't have let something so dumb
slip through. D'uh.
..
--
We must change the way we live,
or the climate will do it for us.
BDK
says...
Please, put down the crack pipe, the bottle, and get some help.
Crazy aint no way to live.
Deadrat
news:ge0cll$j72$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
OK, Sparky, I'll go over this one more time.
If you're born in the United States (as in Hawaii), you're automatically a
US citizen. It is almost impossible to renounce (not denounce) US
citizenship, especially if you're not in the US. Parents cannot renounce
citizenship for their children.
Dave
been
> > born in Kenya, (probably not), but it is indisputed that Obama was a
citizen
> > of Indonesia. And, as Obama never applied to be a U.S. citizen after
his
> > U.S. citizenry was denounced, that would make Obama currently a ?????
> >
> > Only term I can think of rhymes with "illegal alien". :)
> >
> >
> > -Dave
> >
> >
> >
>
> Please, put down the crack pipe, the bottle, and get some help.
>
> Crazy aint no way to live.
> --
> BDK
You think I'm crazy? Prove that Obama applied to be a U.S. citizen after he
WAS a citizen of Indonesia (where you can not hold dual citizenship). If
you come up with the proof to show that Obama became naturalized as a U.S.
citizen after leaving Indonesia, I will concede the point that I might be
crazy.
OH, but OTOH, a naturalized citizen isn't even qualified to run for
President here in the U.S. So if you prove that I'm crazy, you'll prove my
point for me. I win either way. :) -Dave
Matadder
"Dave" <now...@noway2.not> wrote in message
news:ge20o8$sm0$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
(sigh) Tell me that you don't, even for one second, believe this. Tell me
there's not someone out there who actually believes that one of the major
political parties would nominate someone who is not eligible to be
President. Tell me that there's not someone who believes that somehow, that
Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world's biggest job,
involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of
lies. Every single independent reviewer of this smear has come out with the
exact same conclusion as "FactCheck.org," which is that Obama was born in
Hawaii, making him a native US citizen, and never lost that citizenship.
As "Politifact" said in their article on this nonsense, "There is not one
shred of evidence to disprove PolitiFact's conclusion that the candidate's
name is Barack Hussein Obama, or to support allegations that the birth
certificate he released isn't authentic. And that's true no matter how many
people cling to some hint of doubt and use the Internet to fuel their innate
sense of distrust."
BDK
says...
> > > No, Berg's heart is in the right place. Obama might or might not have
> been
> > > born in Kenya, (probably not), but it is indisputed that Obama was a
> citizen
> > > of Indonesia. And, as Obama never applied to be a U.S. citizen after
> his
> > > U.S. citizenry was denounced, that would make Obama currently a ?????
> > >
> > > Only term I can think of rhymes with "illegal alien". :)
> > >
> > >
> > > -Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Please, put down the crack pipe, the bottle, and get some help.
> >
> > Crazy aint no way to live.
> > --
> > BDK
>
> You think I'm crazy? Prove that Obama applied to be a U.S. citizen after he
> WAS a citizen of Indonesia (where you can not hold dual citizenship). If
> you come up with the proof to show that Obama became naturalized as a U.S.
> citizen after leaving Indonesia, I will concede the point that I might be
> crazy.
It's really not a question at this point.
>
> OH, but OTOH, a naturalized citizen isn't even qualified to run for
> President here in the U.S. So if you prove that I'm crazy, you'll prove my
> point for me. I win either way. :) -Dave
>
>
>
The only thing you win is a certificate of delusionary thinking.
Deadrat
news:ge20o8$sm0$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
>> > No, Berg's heart is in the right place. Obama might or might not
>> > have
> been
>> > born in Kenya, (probably not), but it is indisputed that Obama was
>> > a
> citizen
>> > of Indonesia. And, as Obama never applied to be a U.S. citizen
>> > after
> his
>> > U.S. citizenry was denounced, that would make Obama currently a
>> > ?????
>> >
>> > Only term I can think of rhymes with "illegal alien". :)
>> >
>> >
>> > -Dave
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Please, put down the crack pipe, the bottle, and get some help.
>>
>> Crazy aint no way to live.
>> --
>> BDK
>
> You think I'm crazy? Prove that Obama applied to be a U.S. citizen
> after he WAS a citizen of Indonesia (where you can not hold dual
> citizenship)
You think American law takes any notice of Indonesian law? Indonesia can
declare anything it wants; that makes no difference in the citizenship of
an American. Suppose I get the Indoneian legistlature to declare you an
Indonesian citizen. Do you think that would abrogate your US
citizenship?
> If you come up with the proof to show that Obama became
> naturalized as a U.S. citizen after leaving Indonesia, I will concede
> the point that I might be crazy.
Obama was born in Hawaii, and courtesy of the 14th Amendment he never had
to be natrualized.
> OH, but OTOH, a naturalized citizen isn't even qualified to run for
> President here in the U.S.
This is unclear. McCain is a naturalized citizen.
> So if you prove that I'm crazy,
You're not crazy, just ignorant.
> you'll prove my point for me. I win either way. :) -Dave
You couldn't win an argument that the sun rises in the east.
Deadrat
news:tKmdnWr1V7TNDpnU...@giganews.com:
It's certainly possible that the Republicans have.
<snip/>
Dave
>> President here in the U.S. So if you prove that I'm crazy, you'll prove
>> my
>> point for me. I win either way. :) -Dave
>>
>>
>>
>
> The only thing you win is a certificate of delusionary thinking.
> --
I'm delusional????
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States,
at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the
Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who
shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen
Years a Resident within the United States."
OK, I believe Obama wasn't even born when the Constitution was written. Am
I delusional on that? So he can't use the loophole of being a citizen at
the time that the Constitution was adopted.
If someone is a citizen of another country like Indonesia, then you can't be
a Citizen (natural born or otherwise) of the U.S. Perhaps you think THAT is
delusional thinking? I think our founding fathers would disagree with you,
if so...
So who is delusional? -Dave
DanielSan
Have you ever heard of "dual citizenship"?
--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* It has been said that Jesus died on a Friday and *
* was resurrected on a Sunday. It is not so much *
* that Jesus died for our sins, as he had a very *
* bad weekend for them. *
******************************************************
clouddreamer
Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia. He was six years old when he
moved there. As a six year old, he cannot renounce his US citizenship
and his mother isn't allowed to. If she renounced her own citizenship,
there would be a record.
Obama moved back to the US by the time he was ten.
..
--
We must change the way we live,
or the climate will do it for us.
Dave
> (sigh) Tell me that you don't, even for one second, believe this. Tell
> me
> there's not someone out there who actually believes that one of the major
> political parties would nominate someone who is not eligible to be
> President.
Don't be so close-minded. I know it's UNLIKELY that it would happen that a
major political party would nominate someone who is ineligible.
However, if you look at the facts with an open mind, you have to conclude
that Obama was indeed a citizen of Indonesia.
Fact: When Obama went to school in Indonesia, ONLY citizens of Indonesia
could go to school in Indonesia.
Fact: At the time Obama was a citizen of Indonesia, you could not be a
citizen of Indonesia AND some other country
Fact: At some time in his past, Obama was a citizen of Indonesia and ONLY
Indonesia.
The rest is speculation.
Speculation: Did Obama ever apply to become a U.S. citizen after leaving
Indonesia?
Speculation: If so, is Obama now a "naturalized" U.S. citizen?
Speculation: If not, then just what the heck IS the citizenship status of
Obama?
Speculation: Obama might not be qualified to run for President.
Speculation: If you look a this issue with an open mind, it is MORE LIKELY
THAN NOT that Obama is not qualified to run for President of the U.S.
Note the "more likely than not" aspect.
I can't say with 100% certainty that Obama is qualified to run for
President. And neither can you. You'd like to think that a major political
party wouldn't goof that bad. (so would I) But it appears that they did
indeed goof that bad. I'd like to be proven wrong. But the only proof I
would accept, and the only proof YOU should accept, is documentation showing
that Obama is NOW a citizen of the United States (but in any case, no longer
a natural born citizen).
The truly ironic part of this is, even if Obama could establish his current
citizen status, the "natural born" part would trip him up. I believe he was
probably born in Hawaii. So if he never became a citizen of Indonesia, he
MIGHT be qualified to run for President. -Dave
Dave
>> be a Citizen (natural born or otherwise) of the U.S. Perhaps you think
>> THAT is delusional thinking? I think our founding fathers would disagree
>> with you, if so...
>
> Have you ever heard of "dual citizenship"?
Yes, and Indonesia specifically prohibited it, when Obama was a citizen of
Indonesia. -Dave
clouddreamer
>> (sigh) Tell me that you don't, even for one second, believe this. Tell
>> me
>> there's not someone out there who actually believes that one of the major
>> political parties would nominate someone who is not eligible to be
>> President.
>
> Don't be so close-minded. I know it's UNLIKELY that it would happen that a
> major political party would nominate someone who is ineligible.
>
> However, if you look at the facts with an open mind, you have to conclude
> that Obama was indeed a citizen of Indonesia.
No. It was not possible. A six year old cannot give up their citizenship
and his mother cannot. If she gave up her own citizenship, there would
be a record. Where is it?
..
--
We must change the way we live,
or the climate will do it for us.
DanielSan
>> (sigh) Tell me that you don't, even for one second, believe this. Tell
>> me
>> there's not someone out there who actually believes that one of the major
>> political parties would nominate someone who is not eligible to be
>> President.
>
> Don't be so close-minded. I know it's UNLIKELY that it would happen that a
> major political party would nominate someone who is ineligible.
>
> However, if you look at the facts with an open mind, you have to conclude
> that Obama was indeed a citizen of Indonesia.
> Fact: When Obama went to school in Indonesia, ONLY citizens of Indonesia
> could go to school in Indonesia.
You'll have to provide citations for that. Indonesian law experts said
that it was "extremely difficult" to register a non-citizen. Note:
"extremely difficult" is VASTLY different from "impossible".
> Fact: At the time Obama was a citizen of Indonesia, you could not be a
> citizen of Indonesia AND some other country
According to INDONESIAN law. He was still recognized as a US Citizen
according to US law.
> Fact: At some time in his past, Obama was a citizen of Indonesia and ONLY
> Indonesia.
And for that.
>
> The rest is speculation.
>
> Speculation: Did Obama ever apply to become a U.S. citizen after leaving
> Indonesia?
He didn't have to. He's ALWAYS been a US citizen.
> Speculation: If so, is Obama now a "naturalized" U.S. citizen?
Not applicable.
> Speculation: If not, then just what the heck IS the citizenship status of
> Obama?
Natural Born United States Citizen.
>
> Speculation: Obama might not be qualified to run for President.
No one is "qualified" to run for president except for incumbents.
>
> Speculation: If you look a this issue with an open mind, it is MORE LIKELY
> THAN NOT that Obama is not qualified to run for President of the U.S.
If by "open mind" you mean, brains spilling onto the floor, then yes.
>
> Note the "more likely than not" aspect.
>
> I can't say with 100% certainty that Obama is qualified to run for
> President. And neither can you.
Actually, he passes all the qualifications.
>You'd like to think that a major political
> party wouldn't goof that bad. (so would I) But it appears that they did
> indeed goof that bad. I'd like to be proven wrong. But the only proof I
> would accept, and the only proof YOU should accept, is documentation showing
> that Obama is NOW a citizen of the United States (but in any case, no longer
> a natural born citizen).
>
> The truly ironic part of this is, even if Obama could establish his current
> citizen status, the "natural born" part would trip him up. I believe he was
> probably born in Hawaii. So if he never became a citizen of Indonesia, he
> MIGHT be qualified to run for President. -Dave
He is as qualified as anyone running for President that isn't an incumbent.
DanielSan
So what?
Dave
> Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia.
If that was true, then Obama would never have gone to school in Indonesia.
> He was six years old when he moved there.
OK.
> As a six year old, he cannot renounce his US citizenship and his mother
> isn't allowed to.
Well regardless of how it happened, Obama became a citizen of Indonesia (and
ONLY Indonesia). OR, he did NOT go to school in Indonesia. Only one of
those statements is true. It's generally accepted that Obama did go to
school in Indonesia...
> If she renounced her own citizenship, there would be a record.
A record where? Indonesia didn't allow dual citizenship at the time. If
you applied to become a citizen of Indonesia, would they force you to travel
back to the U.S. first to denounce your U.S. citizenship status? Unlikely.
>
> Obama moved back to the US by the time he was ten.
>
And what was his citizenship status at the time? That is the question that
needs to be answered. How did he legally move back to the U.S., seeing that
he was a citizen of Indonesia? If you can answer that IN OBAMA'S FAVOR,
then "natural born" goes out the door... -Dave
clouddreamer
>> Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia.
>
> If that was true, then Obama would never have gone to school in Indonesia.
>
>
>> He was six years old when he moved there.
>
> OK.
>
>
>> As a six year old, he cannot renounce his US citizenship and his mother
>> isn't allowed to.
>
> Well regardless of how it happened, Obama became a citizen of Indonesia (and
> ONLY Indonesia). OR, he did NOT go to school in Indonesia. Only one of
> those statements is true. It's generally accepted that Obama did go to
> school in Indonesia...
It has already been pointed out to you that going to school in Indonesia
is difficult, not impossible for a non-citizen. That argument is moot.
>
>> If she renounced her own citizenship, there would be a record.
>
> A record where? Indonesia didn't allow dual citizenship at the time. If
> you applied to become a citizen of Indonesia, would they force you to travel
> back to the U.S. first to denounce your U.S. citizenship status? Unlikely.
A record at the consulate/embassy in Indonesia. She can renounce her own
citizenship. SHE CANNOT RENOUNCE the citizenship of her minor children.
>
>> Obama moved back to the US by the time he was ten.
>>
>
> And what was his citizenship status at the time? That is the question that
> needs to be answered. How did he legally move back to the U.S., seeing that
> he was a citizen of Indonesia? If you can answer that IN OBAMA'S FAVOR,
> then "natural born" goes out the door... -Dave
HE WAS NOT a citizen of Indonesia. Your school excuse means nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
Deadrat
news:ge2fqv$b45$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
>>> OH, but OTOH, a naturalized citizen isn't even qualified to run for
>>> President here in the U.S. So if you prove that I'm crazy, you'll
>>> prove my
>>> point for me. I win either way. :) -Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The only thing you win is a certificate of delusionary thinking.
>> --
>
> I'm delusional????
>
> "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United
> States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be
> eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be
> eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of
> thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the
> United States."
>
> OK, I believe Obama wasn't even born when the Constitution was
> written. Am I delusional on that? So he can't use the loophole of
> being a citizen at the time that the Constitution was adopted.
>
> If someone is a citizen of another country like Indonesia, then you
> can't be a Citizen (natural born or otherwise) of the U.S.
This is simply incorrect. US citizenship rules take no cognizance of the
laws of other countries.
> Perhaps you think THAT is delusional thinking?
No, it's just bone-deep igorance.
> I think our founding fathers would disagree with you,
You think? Precious little evidence of that, Sparky.
> if so... So who is delusional? -Dave
If so? If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. Obama is a natural born
citizen since he was born in Hawaii. No one in Indonesia can change
that.
You can't either.
Deadrat
news:ge2gdu$ege$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
>
>> (sigh) Tell me that you don't, even for one second, believe this.
>> Tell me
>> there's not someone out there who actually believes that one of the
>> major political parties would nominate someone who is not eligible to
>> be President.
>
> Don't be so close-minded. I know it's UNLIKELY that it would happen
> that a major political party would nominate someone who is ineligible.
>
> However, if you look at the facts with an open mind, you have to
> conclude that Obama was indeed a citizen of Indonesia.
OK. Let's look at Indonesian law. Do you have a cite?
> Fact: When Obama went to school in Indonesia, ONLY citizens of
> Indonesia could go to school in Indonesia.
I don't believe you. Please provide a cite.
> Fact: At the time Obama was a citizen of Indonesia, you could not be
> a citizen of Indonesia AND some other country
Perhaps according to Indonesian law. Please provide a cite, even though
Indonesian law can have no effect on an American's citizenship.
> Fact: At some time in his past, Obama was a citizen of Indonesia and
> ONLY Indonesia.
Please provide the required documentation for this "fact."
>
> The rest is speculation.
>
> Speculation: Did Obama ever apply to become a U.S. citizen after
> leaving Indonesia?
He would never need to. It is almost impossible to lose one's US
citizenship outside the US. Impossible for a child in any case.
> Speculation: If so, is Obama now a "naturalized" U.S. citizen?
Nope. 14th Amendment makes him a natural born citizen.
> Speculation: If not, then just what the heck IS the citizenship
> status of Obama?
Natural born citizen courtesy of his birth in Hawaii and the 14th
Amendment.
>
> Speculation: Obama might not be qualified to run for President.
Nope.
> Speculation: If you look a this issue with an open mind, it is MORE
> LIKELY THAN NOT that Obama is not qualified to run for President of
> the U.S.
>
> Note the "more likely than not" aspect.
>
> I can't say with 100% certainty that Obama is qualified to run for
> President. And neither can you.
Few things are 100% certain. But given Obama's birth in Hawaii and the
14th Amendment, he's qualified.
> You'd like to think that a major
> political party wouldn't goof that bad. (so would I) But it appears
> that they did indeed goof that bad.
The only goof here is you.
> I'd like to be proven wrong. But
> the only proof I would accept, and the only proof YOU should accept,
> is documentation showing that Obama is NOW a citizen of the United
> States (but in any case, no longer a natural born citizen).
If you accept Hawaii's certification of this birth (and everyone but some
rightard kooks have), then you have to accept that Obama is a natural
born citizen.
>
> The truly ironic part of this is, even if Obama could establish his
> current citizen status, the "natural born" part would trip him up.
Nope. He was born in Hawaii, remember?
> I believe he was probably born in Hawaii.
If so, then he's a natural born citizen by definition.
> So if he never became a
> citizen of Indonesia, he MIGHT be qualified to run for President.
It wouldn't matter if he became a citizen of Mars. He was born in the
US; he's a natural born citizen. What's so hard about that?
And why are you whinging about McCain?
> -Dave
>
>
>
Paige Matthews
>Don't be so close-minded. I know it's UNLIKELY that it would happen that a
>major political party would nominate someone who is ineligible.
>
No party would nominate someone who who was ineligible for the
presidency, especially one who was born in the Panama Canal before
legislation gave them US citizenship.
Deadrat
news:ge2gon$gjl$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
Who cares what Indonesia did or didn't prohibit? Their law cannot trump US
law concerning US citizenship. What's so hard about that?
And why aren't you whinging about McCain?
Deadrat
news:ge2h3g$j2g$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
>>
>> Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia.
>
> If that was true, then Obama would never have gone to school in
> Indonesia.
I don't believe you. Cite the Indonesian law at the time. Do you suppose
that even if you're right, Obama could have attended school "illegally"?
>> He was six years old when he moved there.
>
> OK.
>
>> As a six year old, he cannot renounce his US citizenship and his
>> mother isn't allowed to.
>
> Well regardless of how it happened, Obama became a citizen of
> Indonesia
Cite to Indonesian law, please.
> (and ONLY Indonesia).
Cite to US law, please. No one cares what Indonesia says about the status
of an American's US citizenship.
> OR, he did NOT go to school in Indonesia.
"OR" nobody enforced this "law" that you can't cite.
> Only one of those statements is true. It's generally
> accepted that Obama did go to school in Indonesia...
Going to school in a foreign country cannot invalidate US citizenship no
matter what the foreign country says. Do you understand this yet?
>> If she renounced her own citizenship, there would be a record.
>
> A record where? Indonesia didn't allow dual citizenship at the time.
Cite to Indonesian law, please. Even though it's irrelevant.
> If you applied to become a citizen of Indonesia, would they force you
> to travel back to the U.S. first to denounce your U.S. citizenship
> status? Unlikely.
>
>>
>> Obama moved back to the US by the time he was ten.
>>
>
> And what was his citizenship status at the time?
Natural born citizen.
> That is the question that needs to be answered.
Asked and answered.
> How did he legally move back to the U.S.,
> seeing that he was a citizen of Indonesia?
Because even if he were a citizen of Indonesia, he was a citizen of the US.
< If you can answer that IN OBAMA'S FAVOR,
Done.
> then "natural born" goes out the door... -Dave
Sorry, but Indonesian law cannot trump US law concerning US citizenship.
Dave
>> that Obama was indeed a citizen of Indonesia.
>
> No. It was not possible. A six year old cannot give up their citizenship
> and his mother cannot.
But that statement, if true, is in direct conflict with the fact that ONLY
citizens of Indonesia could go to school there at the time and you could not
hold "dual" citizenship in Indonesia at the time. So, did Obama go to
school in Indonesia, OR was Obama a citizen of the U.S.? One OR the other
was true, not both.
> If she gave up her own citizenship, there would be a record. Where is it?
>
Why ask me? Seems Obama should be answering these questions. -Dave
Dave
>>
>> Yes, and Indonesia specifically prohibited it, when Obama was a citizen
>> of Indonesia. -Dave
>
> So what?
If I am a citizen of Indonesia and ONLY Indonesia today, I can not tomorrow,
or at any time in the future, be a natural born citizen of the U.S. THAT is
so what. -Dave
DanielSan
Provide citation.
DanielSan
>>> However, if you look at the facts with an open mind, you have to conclude
>>> that Obama was indeed a citizen of Indonesia.
>> No. It was not possible. A six year old cannot give up their citizenship
>> and his mother cannot.
>
> But that statement, if true, is in direct conflict with the fact that ONLY
> citizens of Indonesia could go to school there at the time and you could not
> hold "dual" citizenship in Indonesia at the time. So, did Obama go to
> school in Indonesia, OR was Obama a citizen of the U.S.? One OR the other
> was true, not both.
Or there's a third option (or fourth or fifth, but let's concentrate on
option three):
He was not recognized by Indonesia as a US Citizen. This is irrelevant
to how the US recognizes him.
>
>> If she gave up her own citizenship, there would be a record. Where is it?
>>
>
> Why ask me? Seems Obama should be answering these questions.
Why should Obama answer to every silly non-evidenced notion?
clouddreamer
>>> However, if you look at the facts with an open mind, you have to conclude
>>> that Obama was indeed a citizen of Indonesia.
>> No. It was not possible. A six year old cannot give up their citizenship
>> and his mother cannot.
>
> But that statement, if true, is in direct conflict with the fact that ONLY
> citizens of Indonesia could go to school there at the time and you could not
> hold "dual" citizenship in Indonesia at the time. So, did Obama go to
> school in Indonesia, OR was Obama a citizen of the U.S.? One OR the other
> was true, not both.
>
<sigh> For the last time, it has been pointed out to you that a
non-citizen CAN GO TO SCHOOL in Indonesia. Difficult is NOT impossible.
The fact that he went to school DOES NOT PRECLUDE THE FACT that as a six
year old, HE DID NOT LOSE his citizenship. He has to renounce it and US
law will not let a six year old do so.
Given that, the only conclusion is that he went to school despite the
fact that he was a US citizen.
The fact that you're harping on this point just proves you have nothing.
If Indonesia required ALL kids to be citizens to go to school there,
they would have NO FOREIGN investment in their country. What company is
going to have people go there to live knowing they would have to
renounce their citizenship. Ridiculous.
>> If she gave up her own citizenship, there would be a record. Where is it?
>>
>
> Why ask me? Seems Obama should be answering these questions. -Dave
You're the one who seems convinced that she did. If she did, don't you
think someone like Berg would have dug that up?????
If she didn't renounce her citizenship then it's obvious that Obama had
no problem going to school as a US citizen.
What's even more foolish is that you think he could get this close to
the presidency without the Democratic party having confirmed his
citizenship.
He was born in Hawaii.
UNDER US LAW, Obama could not renounce his citizenship. His mother could
not do it. Indonesia could not do it.
IT DID NOT HAPPEN.
Clear????
<sheesh>
..
--
We must change the way we live
Or the climate will do it for us.
Dave
> that it was "extremely difficult" to register a non-citizen. Note:
> "extremely difficult" is VASTLY different from "impossible".
OK, so Obama would need to prove that he was an exception, rather than the
rule.
>
>> Fact: At the time Obama was a citizen of Indonesia, you could not be a
>> citizen of Indonesia AND some other country
>
> According to INDONESIAN law. He was still recognized as a US Citizen
> according to US law.
Are you SURE of that? I ask, because the future of our country depends on
the answer. If someone told me that they were a citizen of Indonesia and no
other country, I would be pretty certain that they were not a U.S. citizen.
Is there some loophole that you are aware of that I am not?
>
>> Fact: At some time in his past, Obama was a citizen of Indonesia and
>> ONLY Indonesia.
>
> And for that.
>
>>
>> The rest is speculation.
>>
>> Speculation: Did Obama ever apply to become a U.S. citizen after leaving
>> Indonesia?
>
> He didn't have to. He's ALWAYS been a US citizen.
That statement is speculation, pure and simple. The question has not been
answered, either way.
>
>> Speculation: If so, is Obama now a "naturalized" U.S. citizen?
>
> Not applicable.
It most certainly is applicable. We don't have an amnesty program yet. I
hope we never do. But in any case, it wouldn't apply to Presidential
candidates, I'm sure of that.
>
>> Speculation: If not, then just what the heck IS the citizenship status
>> of Obama?
>
> Natural Born United States Citizen.
Only if he was never a citizen of Indonesia. But the evidence suggests that
it's more likely than not that he was a citizen of Indonesia.
>
>>
>> Speculation: Obama might not be qualified to run for President.
>
> No one is "qualified" to run for president except for incumbents.
Well if you want to get philosophical, I would suggest that the only people
truly qualified to run for President are those who would never run for
President.
>
>>
>> Speculation: If you look a this issue with an open mind, it is MORE
>> LIKELY THAN NOT that Obama is not qualified to run for President of the
>> U.S.
>
> If by "open mind" you mean, brains spilling onto the floor, then yes.
Oh come on now, it is logical to think (in fact it is a great possibility)
that Obama was a citizen of Indonesia at some point. To NOT wonder about
Obama's -current- citizenship status therefore requires brains spilling onto
the floor.
>
>>
>> Note the "more likely than not" aspect.
>>
>> I can't say with 100% certainty that Obama is qualified to run for
>> President. And neither can you.
>
> Actually, he passes all the qualifications.
Only if he was never a citizen of Indonesia. But he probably was. -Dave
Dave
> Going to school in a foreign country cannot invalidate US citizenship no
> matter what the foreign country says. Do you understand this yet?
Yes, but being a citizen of Indonesia, when Indonesia does not allow dual
citizenship, does call into question Obama's current citizenship status.
> And why aren't you whinging about McCain?
>
I hate McCain. But I can't whine about his citizenship status, as he
(McCain) was never a citizen of Indonesia. -Dave
Dave
> HE WAS NOT a citizen of Indonesia. Your school excuse means nothing.
> Absolutely nothing.
>
Y'know what puzzles me is, the best evidence seems to suggest that Obama is
not qualified to be a candidate for President. Yet so many people are
willing to state with absolute certainty that Obama IS qualified, in spite
of good, credible evidence to the contrary. This question needs to be
answered. Obama is not applying to be school janitor, for Christ's
ake. -Dave
DanielSan
>> You'll have to provide citations for that. Indonesian law experts said
>> that it was "extremely difficult" to register a non-citizen. Note:
>> "extremely difficult" is VASTLY different from "impossible".
>
> OK, so Obama would need to prove that he was an exception, rather than the
> rule.
No. You do.
>
>
>>> Fact: At the time Obama was a citizen of Indonesia, you could not be a
>>> citizen of Indonesia AND some other country
>> According to INDONESIAN law. He was still recognized as a US Citizen
>> according to US law.
>
> Are you SURE of that? I ask, because the future of our country depends on
> the answer. If someone told me that they were a citizen of Indonesia and no
> other country, I would be pretty certain that they were not a U.S. citizen.
> Is there some loophole that you are aware of that I am not?
Yes. You need to renounce your citizenship in order to lose your
citizenship.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1481.html
>
>
>>> Fact: At some time in his past, Obama was a citizen of Indonesia and
>>> ONLY Indonesia.
>> And for that.
>>
>>> The rest is speculation.
>>>
>>> Speculation: Did Obama ever apply to become a U.S. citizen after leaving
>>> Indonesia?
>> He didn't have to. He's ALWAYS been a US citizen.
>
> That statement is speculation, pure and simple. The question has not been
> answered, either way.
Actually, it has.
>
>
>
>>> Speculation: If so, is Obama now a "naturalized" U.S. citizen?
>> Not applicable.
>
> It most certainly is applicable.
No. It's not applicable because he has ALWAYS been a natural born citizen.
> We don't have an amnesty program yet. I
> hope we never do. But in any case, it wouldn't apply to Presidential
> candidates, I'm sure of that.
>
>
>>> Speculation: If not, then just what the heck IS the citizenship status
>>> of Obama?
>> Natural Born United States Citizen.
>
> Only if he was never a citizen of Indonesia. But the evidence suggests that
> it's more likely than not that he was a citizen of Indonesia.
Irrelevant. You need to voluntarily renounce your citizenship to lose
your citizenship status with the United States. Indonesia has no
jurisdiction on that.
>
>
>>> Speculation: Obama might not be qualified to run for President.
>> No one is "qualified" to run for president except for incumbents.
>
> Well if you want to get philosophical, I would suggest that the only people
> truly qualified to run for President are those who would never run for
> President.
Yes. So, cut this "unqualified" shit.
>
>
>>> Speculation: If you look a this issue with an open mind, it is MORE
>>> LIKELY THAN NOT that Obama is not qualified to run for President of the
>>> U.S.
>> If by "open mind" you mean, brains spilling onto the floor, then yes.
>
> Oh come on now, it is logical to think (in fact it is a great possibility)
> that Obama was a citizen of Indonesia at some point. To NOT wonder about
> Obama's -current- citizenship status therefore requires brains spilling onto
> the floor.
Actually, only those that wonder, WITHOUT EVIDENCE, that Obama is not a
US Citizen when all evidence points to the contrary is a sign of a
deranged mind.
>
>
>>> Note the "more likely than not" aspect.
>>>
>>> I can't say with 100% certainty that Obama is qualified to run for
>>> President. And neither can you.
>> Actually, he passes all the qualifications.
>
> Only if he was never a citizen of Indonesia. But he probably was.
What does Indonesia have to do with anything? Please cite the US law
that states that being a citizen of Indonesia immediately revokes your
US Citizenship. Don't cite Indonesian law. Cite US law.
DanielSan
>> HE WAS NOT a citizen of Indonesia. Your school excuse means nothing.
>> Absolutely nothing.
>>
>
> Y'know what puzzles me is, the best evidence seems to suggest that Obama is
> not qualified to be a candidate for President. Yet so many people are
> willing to state with absolute certainty that Obama IS qualified, in spite
> of good, credible evidence to the contrary.
There is NO evidence to the contrary because none has ever been provided.
> This question needs to be
> answered.
And has been.
clouddreamer
Non-answer noted.
Using some obscure belief that he couldn't be an American citizen
because he went to public school in Indonesia and that that means he's
not qualified to be president has to be the most idiotic thing I've read
in a while.
He is a vastly superior candidate to McCain in so many ways. It's sad
that your ideology is clouding your common sense.
In 8 days, give-r-take, it's going to be President Obama.
Repeat after me...."President Obama."
Get over it.
<plonk>
..
--
We must change the way we live
Or the climate will do it for us.
Douglas Berry
the following into the hard stone of alt.atheism
>>> President here in the U.S. So if you prove that I'm crazy, you'll prove
>>> my
>>> point for me. I win either way. :) -Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The only thing you win is a certificate of delusionary thinking.
>> --
>
>I'm delusional????
>
>"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States,
>at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the
>Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who
>shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen
>Years a Resident within the United States."
>
>OK, I believe Obama wasn't even born when the Constitution was written. Am
>I delusional on that? So he can't use the loophole of being a citizen at
>the time that the Constitution was adopted.
>
>a Citizen (natural born or otherwise) of the U.S. Perhaps you think THAT is
>delusional thinking? I think our founding fathers would disagree with you,
>if so...
>
You are. He was born in Hawai'i.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Douglas Berry
the following into the hard stone of alt.atheism
>>
>
>If that was true, then Obama would never have gone to school in Indonesia.
He was a resident alien. They are allowed to attend school.
>> As a six year old, he cannot renounce his US citizenship and his mother
>> isn't allowed to.
>
>Well regardless of how it happened, Obama became a citizen of Indonesia (and
>ONLY Indonesia). OR, he did NOT go to school in Indonesia. Only one of
>those statements is true. It's generally accepted that Obama did go to
>school in Indonesia...
Cite that Indonesian schools are only open to citizens of that
country?
>> If she renounced her own citizenship, there would be a record.
>
>A record where? Indonesia didn't allow dual citizenship at the time. If
>you applied to become a citizen of Indonesia, would they force you to travel
>back to the U.S. first to denounce your U.S. citizenship status? Unlikely.
You file at the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta that you are accepting
Indonesian citizenship and as such are renouncing your U.S.
citizenship. There would be records all over the place about that.
>> Obama moved back to the US by the time he was ten.
>
>And what was his citizenship status at the time? That is the question that
>needs to be answered. How did he legally move back to the U.S., seeing that
>he was a citizen of Indonesia? If you can answer that IN OBAMA'S FAVOR,
>then "natural born" goes out the door... -Dave
He wasn't a citizen of Indonesia.
alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots and misc.transport.trucking
snipped.
Douglas Berry
the following into the hard stone of alt.atheism
>>> that Obama was indeed a citizen of Indonesia.
>>
>> No. It was not possible. A six year old cannot give up their citizenship
>> and his mother cannot.
>
>But that statement, if true, is in direct conflict with the fact that ONLY
>citizens of Indonesia could go to school there at the time and you could not
>hold "dual" citizenship in Indonesia at the time. So, did Obama go to
>school in Indonesia, OR was Obama a citizen of the U.S.? One OR the other
>was true, not both.
You keep making this claim, and it seems to have no evidence to back
it up. Please cite your evidence that in the late sixties Indonesian
public schools were closed to resident aliens.
>> If she gave up her own citizenship, there would be a record. Where is it?
>
>Why ask me? Seems Obama should be answering these questions. -Dave
We're asking you because you are the one making the claims.
Deadrat
news:ge2kd4$66u$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
What makes you "ONLY" a citizen of Indonesia today? If the answer is that
Indonesia says you're "ONLY" a citizen of Indonesia, then that answer isn't
sufficient to cancel US citizenship.
Get it now?
Why aren't you whinging about McCain's citizenship problem?
clouddreamer
> clouddreamer <Cl...@te.Change.is.real.ca> wrote in
> news:X5CdnYPZ8bC_RJnU...@supernews.com:
>> Dave wrote:
>>>> HE WAS NOT a citizen of Indonesia. Your school excuse means nothing.
>>>> Absolutely nothing.
>>>>
>>> Y'know what puzzles me is, the best evidence seems to suggest that
>>> Obama is not qualified to be a candidate for President. Yet so many
>>> people are willing to state with absolute certainty that Obama IS
>>> qualified, in spite of good, credible evidence to the contrary. This
>>> question needs to be answered. Obama is not applying to be school
>>> janitor, for Christ's ake. -Dave
>>>
>>>
>> Non-answer noted.
>>
>>
>> Using some obscure belief that he couldn't be an American citizen
>> because he went to public school in Indonesia and that that means he's
>> not qualified to be president has to be the most idiotic thing I've
>> read in a while.
>>
>> He is a vastly superior candidate to McCain in so many ways. It's sad
>> that your ideology is clouding your common sense.
>>
>> In 8 days, give-r-take, it's going to be President Obama.
>
>
> When the Electoral College votes he'll be the designated President-elect.
>
> When Congress counts the Electoral College vote, he'll be the President-
> elect.
>
> When his term starts on 1/20/09, he'll be the President.
>
> <snip/>
>
>
Semantics.
Bill
Fact: Obama was born in Hawaii, making him a natural born U.S. Citizen,
therefore able to serve as President. Photos of his birth certificate
as well as the newspaper announcement for his birth can be seen at
factcheck.org
Fact: When he was adopted by his stepfather, by law he became an
Indonesian citizen, therefore he was able to attend school in that country.
Fact: Indonesia does not recognize duel citizenship, so the Government
of Indonesia did not recognize his U.S. citizenship. However, this fact
did not change the status of Obama's U.S. citizenship, which can only be
changed by renunciation.
Fact: "Parents cannot renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their minor
children. Before an oath of renunciation will be administered under
Section 349(a)(5) of the INA, a person under the age of eighteen must
convince a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer that he/she fully
understands the nature and consequences of the oath of renunciation, is
not subject to duress or undue influence, and is voluntarily seeking to
renounce his/her U.S. citizenship."
Source: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
Therefore, Obama's mother or stepfather could not be the one to renounce
his citizenship and since it's doubtful that a six year old Obama would
have been able to "convince a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer that
he/she fully understands the nature and consequences of the oath of
renunciation", then his U.S. citizenship was never renounced, therefore
he is able to serve as President.
Anyone who continues to claim different is either a) ignorant b) a troll
c) all of the above
Time to move on
Bill
Deadrat
news:ge2l0u$9m3$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
>> You'll have to provide citations for that. Indonesian law experts
>> said that it was "extremely difficult" to register a non-citizen.
>> Note: "extremely difficult" is VASTLY different from "impossible".
>
> OK, so Obama would need to prove that he was an exception, rather than
> the rule.
Why? Indonesian law is irrelevant to US law.
>>> Fact: At the time Obama was a citizen of Indonesia, you could not
>>> be a citizen of Indonesia AND some other country
>>
>> According to INDONESIAN law. He was still recognized as a US Citizen
>> according to US law.
>
> Are you SURE of that?
Absolutely. Anyone born in a state is a natural-born citizen. It is
almost impossible to give up US citizenship. A child cannot do it.
> I ask, because the future of our country
> depends on the answer. If someone told me that they were a citizen of
> Indonesia and no other country, I would be pretty certain that they
> were not a U.S. citizen. Is there some loophole that you are aware of
> that I am not?
Condition contrary to fact. No matter what Indonesia says, a US citizen
remains a US citizen.
>>> Fact: At some time in his past, Obama was a citizen of Indonesia
>>> and ONLY Indonesia.
>>
>> And for that.
>>
>>>
>>> The rest is speculation.
>>>
>>> Speculation: Did Obama ever apply to become a U.S. citizen after
>>> leaving Indonesia?
>>
>> He didn't have to. He's ALWAYS been a US citizen.
>
> That statement is speculation, pure and simple. The question has not
> been answered, either way.
What would convince you? The 14th Amendment and 3USC settle it.
>
>
>
>>
>>> Speculation: If so, is Obama now a "naturalized" U.S. citizen?
>>
>> Not applicable.
>
> It most certainly is applicable. We don't have an amnesty program
> yet. I hope we never do. But in any case, it wouldn't apply to
> Presidential candidates, I'm sure of that.
It's irrelevant. Obama has always been a citizen.
>
>
>>
>>> Speculation: If not, then just what the heck IS the citizenship
>>> status of Obama?
>>
>> Natural Born United States Citizen.
>
> Only if he was never a citizen of Indonesia.
Again. This is wrong. US citizenship not affected by the laws of any
other country.
> But the evidence
> suggests that it's more likely than not that he was a citizen of
> Indonesia.
Machs nicht.
<snip/>
>>> Speculation: If you look a this issue with an open mind, it is MORE
>>> LIKELY THAN NOT that Obama is not qualified to run for President of
>>> the U.S.
>>
>> If by "open mind" you mean, brains spilling onto the floor, then yes.
>
> Oh come on now, it is logical to think (in fact it is a great
> possibility) that Obama was a citizen of Indonesia at some point. To
> NOT wonder about Obama's -current- citizenship status therefore
> requires brains spilling onto the floor.
Obama could have had Martian citizenship. It wouldn't cancel his US
citizenship.
>>> Note the "more likely than not" aspect.
>>>
>>> I can't say with 100% certainty that Obama is qualified to run for
>>> President. And neither can you.
>>
>> Actually, he passes all the qualifications.
>
> Only if he was never a citizen of Indonesia.
Please provide a cite to *US* law that says this.
> But he probably was.
Machs nicht.
> -Dave
>
>
>
Deadrat
> Dave wrote:
>>> HE WAS NOT a citizen of Indonesia. Your school excuse means nothing.
>>> Absolutely nothing.
>>>
>>
>> Y'know what puzzles me is, the best evidence seems to suggest that
>> Obama is not qualified to be a candidate for President. Yet so many
>> people are willing to state with absolute certainty that Obama IS
>> qualified, in spite of good, credible evidence to the contrary. This
>> question needs to be answered. Obama is not applying to be school
>> janitor, for Christ's ake. -Dave
>>
>>
>
> Non-answer noted.
>
>
> Using some obscure belief that he couldn't be an American citizen
> because he went to public school in Indonesia and that that means he's
> not qualified to be president has to be the most idiotic thing I've
> read in a while.
>
> He is a vastly superior candidate to McCain in so many ways. It's sad
> that your ideology is clouding your common sense.
>
> In 8 days, give-r-take, it's going to be President Obama.
No, he'll be the presumptive designated President-elect.
Deadrat
news:ge2l7c$atq$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
>>
>> HE WAS NOT a citizen of Indonesia. Your school excuse means nothing.
>> Absolutely nothing.
>>
>
> Y'know what puzzles me is, the best evidence seems to suggest that
> Obama is not qualified to be a candidate for President.
There is no such evidence.
> Yet so many
> people are willing to state with absolute certainty that Obama IS
> qualified, in spite of good, credible evidence to the contrary.
There is no such evidence. People like me who state that Obama is a
citizen do so because we understand the law. As long as Obama was born in
Hawaii (and Hawaii actually certifies this), then he's a US citizen.
> This question needs to be answered.
It's been answered. You jsut don't like the answer.
> Obama is not applying to be school janitor, for Christ's ake.
Then relax. Your job is safe.
-Dave
Deadrat
news:ge2lct$bin$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
>
>> Going to school in a foreign country cannot invalidate US citizenship
>> no matter what the foreign country says. Do you understand this yet?
>
> Yes, but being a citizen of Indonesia, when Indonesia does not allow
> dual citizenship, does call into question Obama's current citizenship
> status.
No, it doesn't. US law does not take foreign law into account. Look it up
in the United States Code if you don't believe me.
>
>> And why aren't you whinging about McCain?
>>
>
> I hate McCain. But I can't whine about his citizenship status, as he
> (McCain) was never a citizen of Indonesia. -Dave
But he was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which was never incorporated US
territory. He was naturalized by an act of Congress a year after his
birth.
Anthony Williams
>> Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia.
>
> If that was true, then Obama would never have gone to school in Indonesia.
>
>
>
> OK.
>
>
>> isn't allowed to.
>
> Well regardless of how it happened, Obama became a citizen of Indonesia (and
> ONLY Indonesia). OR, he did NOT go to school in Indonesia. Only one of
> those statements is true. It's generally accepted that Obama did go to
> school in Indonesia...
Ever hear of the fallacy of bifurcation? You should take the time to
look it up.
>
>> If she renounced her own citizenship, there would be a record.
>
> A record where? Indonesia didn't allow dual citizenship at the time. If
> you applied to become a citizen of Indonesia, would they force you to travel
> back to the U.S. first to denounce your U.S. citizenship status? Unlikely.
>
Deadrat
news:O_idnc3vgp7VcZnU...@supernews.com:
Yeah, let's not let *meaning* enter the discussion.