University police questions
Nick Sayer
I was once walking on the quad dialing the autopatch code for a
local amateur radio repeater into my hand-held radio when I
was suddenly accosted by a pair of the local rent-a-cops
who asked all sorts of stupid questions, detained me for five
minutes, then let me go on my way. I wrote a stern letter to
the department and got no response. Anyway, the incident is
ancient history, but I got to thinking and wondered what would
have happened, etc, and have some questions:
1. These folk issue parking tickets that are double (or more)
the price of tickets issued by the local police for the
same violations. For instance, park in a red zone on the
north side of a (east-west) street, the campus fuzz
will issue a $20 ticket. Do the same on the south side,
and the local police will issue a $10 ticket. The mailer
with the ticket from the campus police has the university
address printed on it. The city police tickets are addressed
to city hall. This smacks of unequal protection under the law.
Are these tickets legal? I would just LOVE to be able to pass the
word far and wide that these can be ignored, but I'm not about
to do that sort of thing.
2. These folk also issue moving violations. Same question.
3. If a policeman detains me (NO motor vehicle involved),
what is the minimum amount of information I must give?
4. If I give that minimum amount of information and refuse
to say anything further, and said policeman decides to
haul me in, but I hadn't done anything (last I heard,
a licensed ham using a ham radio isn't a crime), what
recourse do I have against that police department? It's
my understanding that false arrest doesn't apply.
5. Same question applied to kampus kops?
Oddly enough, the campus fuzz drive around in cars
with government-style plates, but it's a private
university. Weird.
Please reply via e-mail, as I may miss a posting.
--
Allen Gwinn
>At a university I recently attended (which will remain nameless),
>I was once walking on the quad dialing the autopatch code for a
>local amateur radio repeater into my hand-held radio when I
>was suddenly accosted by a pair of the local rent-a-cops
>who asked all sorts of stupid questions, detained me for five
>minutes, then let me go on my way.
I can't speak for California (I hope you're talking about CA), but in
Texas, there are strict guidelines for what police officer can do
V.S. a security guard (I guess thats what you're referring to when
you called them "rent-a-cops"). A security guard in Texas may make
an arrest if they witness a felony being committed, or a crime against
themselves or their employer (basically same as any normal citizen).
I was driving through a mall parking lot and did a "Texas stop" at one
of those stop signs that nobody stops for (you know, the kind out in the
middle of the parking lot where nobody ever parks). A mall security
guard wheeled up behind me in his jeep, and curbed my car (damn good
thing he didn't hit me). He got out, walked back, and proceeded to
chew me out for running a stop sign. When there was a break in his
rambling, I simply asked him if traffic stops were part of the authority
given to him by the State Board of Private Investigators and Private
Security Agencies. He responded by walking to his jeep and driving
away :-) I dropped the story on a friend of mine with the PSA, and
he had a "talk" with mall management.
Then there is the issue of amateur radio being involved. Depending
on what you were detained for, the F.C.C. may be very interested in
your story.
>1. These folk issue parking tickets that are double (or more)
>the price of tickets issued by the local police for the
>same violations. For instance, park in a red zone on the
>north side of a (east-west) street, the campus fuzz
>will issue a $20 ticket. Do the same on the south side,
>and the local police will issue a $10 ticket. The mailer
>with the ticket from the campus police has the university
>address printed on it. The city police tickets are addressed
>to city hall. This smacks of unequal protection under the law.
>Are these tickets legal? I would just LOVE to be able to pass the
>word far and wide that these can be ignored, but I'm not about
>to do that sort of thing.
Depends, here again. In Texas, some of our schools are state-run,
and have sworn officers in the department. In some cases, the campus tickets
issued by campus Peace officers are enforceable by the State. Back
in my (not "the") early 20's, I developed a hand-held computer to issue
traffic tickets. Damn things sold like hot-cakes :-) [drop the idea... I
routinely check for mail-bombs and rotten eggs :-)] Without
exception, I never ran across a *private* University who's campus
tickets were anything other than "administrative actions". This means
that the school can bill you, hold transcripts, etc, but if I'm a
visitor and get a ticket, unless I attend the University in question,
they can do nothing to me. Now watch out here, though! The University
that I work for tows cars after 5 or 6 traffic tickets... regardless
of who you are. You may not have to pay the tickets, but I bet you'll
end up paying the towing fee.
Now thats "campus" tickets. The private University that I work for has
sworn police officers (just like many if not most others) that carry
City ticket books as well. They can give you a City ticket for a moving
violation if they decide to.
>3. If a policeman detains me (NO motor vehicle involved),
>what is the minimum amount of information I must give?
A loaded question! It is clear (at least in Texas... I know I talk about
this State alot, but it varies from State to State) that you must provide
identification. Now what you "must" provide and "should" provide becomes
a little bit of a gray area. A Texas Peace Officer can hold a person for
72 hours (or is it 48 now?) without charging him/her pending an investigation.
So if the officer asks you a question about a crime, unless it is self-
incriminating, you might consider cooperating.
>4. If I give that minimum amount of information and refuse
>to say anything further, and said policeman decides to
>haul me in, but I hadn't done anything (last I heard,
>a licensed ham using a ham radio isn't a crime), what
>recourse do I have against that police department? It's
>my understanding that false arrest doesn't apply.
Once again, this is sort of loaded. If I were a police officer and
had been notified that (for instance) there had been a convenience store
robbery (in the vicinity) in which the culprits used hand-held radios,
I might stop you and ask you some questions. If you refused to cooperate,
or told me that you were going to give me some "minimum amount" of
information and nothing more, I'd seriously consider arresting and
detaining you pending an investigation. Under these circumstances,
I don't think that you'd have a prayer of bringing any kind of legal
action.
However, if I was just an overzealous "campus cop" who believed that
nobody other than cops should be able to talk on a hand-held radio, and
asked you what you were doing and your response was similar (and so
was mine), I think that you may *possibly* have some recourse. I think
that a "false arrest" would be valid if what you were doing would not
have been a crime even if you were doing it. ...but as this overzealous
"campus cop", I would probably know this. So I'd stretch the truth (lie)
about what you were doing :-)
I guess that the bottom line is that "you can beat the rap, but you can't
beat the ride". A friend of mine (a Dallas Police officer) told me once
that "more people talk themselves *in* to tickets that out of them" when
if they'd have just kept their mouths shut, he'd have let them go.
Sometimes it may feel a little bit demeaning or invasive to be pressed
to answer questions that you feel shouldn't have even been asked in the
first place, but sometimes it may be a little better than having to
spend the night in jail (or perhaps it wouldn't, I don't know).
Just remember that if the kind of abuse that you're tolerating happens to
enough people, eventually something will be done about it (case in point:
Rodney King). There's another old saying: "What goes around, comes around"
:-)
--
Allen Gwinn (al...@sulaco.lonestar.org)
"If SCO would like to use this server in one of their products they have to
pay $100 for every copy they redistribute, cause I don't like this company
and their braindamaged products." - Thomas Roell on The Santa Cruz Operation
David Feustel
black guy in Santa Monica, CA declaring that citizens had no duty to
identify themselves to police officers making stops of pedestrians
without probable cause.
--
David Feustel, 1930 Curdes Ave, Fort Wayne, IN 46805, (219) 482-9631
EMAIL: feu...@netcom.com
Vote Jesse Jackson for President in '92.
Aids is Nature's antibody against the plague of humanity that is
destroying all other life(excepting rats and cockroaches) on the planet.
Maybe if mankind stops destroying the planet AIDS will stop destroying
us.
Allen Gwinn
>There was a Supreme Court decision a couple of years ago concerning a
>black guy in Santa Monica, CA declaring that citizens had no duty to
>identify themselves to police officers making stops of pedestrians
>without probable cause.
I maintain that no police officer is going to "haul" somebody in and
then openly admit that they were stopped without cause. If I were
an "overzealous" (...I know... I've been using that phrase alot lately)
campus cop, and you refused to give me I.D., I'd probably detain you
for "probable cause"... even if that meant having to make up a good
reason for holding you.
...of course, I'd eventually get caught doing this, but that doesn't do
you any good when you're in jail overnight, does it?
Brett Kottmann
> At a university I recently attended (which will remain nameless),
> I was once walking on the quad dialing the autopatch code for a
> local amateur radio repeater into my hand-held radio when I
> was suddenly accosted by a pair of the local rent-a-cops
> who asked all sorts of stupid questions, detained me for five
> minutes, then let me go on my way. I wrote a stern letter to
> the department and got no response. Anyway, the incident is
> ancient history, but I got to thinking and wondered what would
> have happened, etc, and have some questions:
>
> 1. These folk issue parking tickets that are double (or more)
> the price of tickets issued by the local police for the
> to city hall. This smacks of unequal protection under the law.
> Are these tickets legal? I would just LOVE to be able to pass the
Yes. They are "official" police agencies. Local municipalities (or
univ.) can set their own fees for violations.
>
> 2. These folk also issue moving violations. Same question.
>
Yep.
> 3. If a policeman detains me (NO motor vehicle involved),
> what is the minimum amount of information I must give?
>
Nothing. Be silent. If they get nasty, say only "I want a lawyer".
They cannot ask you anything further until your lawyer is present. (Well they
can ask, but nothing would be admissable in court.)
A caveat here. If there was a crime in the area (say a rape) they have
a legitimate reason to go around asking questions. I'd take the silent
approach only if they were dicks about it.
> 4. If I give that minimum amount of information and refuse
> to say anything further, and said policeman decides to
> haul me in, but I hadn't done anything (last I heard,
> a licensed ham using a ham radio isn't a crime), what
> recourse do I have against that police department? It's
> my understanding that false arrest doesn't apply.
>
Correct. Tell them you want a lawyer. They can hold you up to 24
hours (the whole weekend if on a Friday) without officially charging you with
anything.
> 5. Same question applied to kampus kops?
>
Same thing.
> Oddly enough, the campus fuzz drive around in cars
> with government-style plates, but it's a private
> university. Weird.
>
Probably the Univ. pays the state for police duties.
Brett
=============================OFFICIAL=DISCLAIMER================================
The opinions and views expressed here are strictly my own and do not
necessarily reflect the official position of either the U.S. Air Force
or its contractors.
=====================DO=NOT=REMOVE=TAG=UNDER=PENALTY=OF=LAW===:)================
Gene A. Kennedy
> In article <1991Jul22....@netcom.COM> feu...@netcom.COM (David Feust
>
> >There was a Supreme Court decision a couple of years ago concerning a
> >black guy in Santa Monica, CA declaring that citizens had no duty to
> >identify themselves to police officers making stops of pedestrians
> >without probable cause.
>
> I maintain that no police officer is going to "haul" somebody in and
> then openly admit that they were stopped without cause. If I were
> an "overzealous" (...I know... I've been using that phrase alot lately)
> campus cop, and you refused to give me I.D., I'd probably detain you
> for "probable cause"... even if that meant having to make up a good
> reason for holding you.
>
Well Allen, in Texas, you wouldn't have to be "overzealous", just
"suspicious".
Art 14.03 Authority of peace officers. (a) Any peace officer may
arrest, without warrant:
(1) persons found in suspicious places and under circumstances
which reasonably show that such persons have been guilty of some felony
or breach of the peace, or threaten, or are about to commit some
offense against the law.
This section has not only been upheld many times, but the courts have
also held that what is "suspicious" is based on the *officers*
knowledge and not the "reasonable person" test. In the case being
discussed here, if the campus cops (assuming they are real peace
officers) had prior knowledge of hand held radios being used by
"lookouts" to warn their accomplaces of police presence, a person with
a hand held radio would automatically become "suspicious".
The other interesting point here is that the courts ahve also held
that no "act" is required by the person to be suspicious. Mere presence
in the place doing nothing (just sitting there) may be enough, in some
cases, to make the person "suspicious" and therefore, give probable
cause for arrest.
(Note: this is under Texas law and may not apply in other states.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gene Kennedy - Ham Radio Operator, N5ABI -
g...@n5abi.hou.tx.us
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Francis Stracke
Friend of mine back at Northwestern (in Evanston, IL) told me that, in
'85 (I think), a bunch of people (incl. him) had built a shantytown
among the administrative buildings, protesting NU's investment in
South Africa. Eventually, they were cleared off, and some, again
including him, were arrested. The crime he was charged with was
refusing to obey a police officer.
*That* is scary.
--
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