Potheads of the 70's Raising Kids
nancy.l.colucci
>
>The one that I find amusing is past drug use. Bill Clinton has nothing
>on the parents of today. Many parents have "re-written history" on
>this subject - people who were serious dope smokers in the 70s will
>tell their kids that they never touched drugs.
And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would be
open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
be as eager to experiment.
That is, of course, provided that the kids being told are of an age
where they can understand, and have a good relationship with their
parents bvased on honesty.
In my experience, parents who try to make themselves seem all-knowing
and holy only harbor resentment in their kids.
--
-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+
Nance Colucci att!ihlpl!colucci
"I'm a writer. Be nice, or you'll wake up one day and be a story."
-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+
Steve Carnes
>And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would be
>open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
>stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
>or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
>be as eager to experiment.
The dilemma is what to tell them if the from-a-life-long-ago drug experiences
were basically good and pleasant and contained nothing horrible. Like most
parents, I still don't want my kids to experiment, but if somebody asks, "Dad,
did you ever smoke {hash, marijuana, banana peels, etc.}?", should I lie and
say "Yes, but standing on a stage, playing music before 80-some thousand
people, ripped out of my gourd, was a major downer, and I don't want you ever
to have to go through that! Now be a good girl, and go get your old Dad a
large White Horse on the rocks!"
--
Steve Carnes car...@ico.isc.com uucp: {ncar,nbires}!ico!carnes
"Rock gives reality to the otherwise abstract notion of transhuman
time." - Edward Abbey
Andy Lowry
> In article <C0uv4...@agora.rain.com> ri...@agora.rain.com (Rick Coates) writes:
> >
> >The one that I find amusing is past drug use. Bill Clinton has
> >nothing on the parents of today. Many parents have "re-written
> >history" on this subject - people who were serious dope smokers in
> >the 70s will tell their kids that they never touched drugs.
>
> And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would be
> open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
> stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
> or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
> be as eager to experiment.
I saw a news report about some parents in California who started doing
just what you described. It was just a handful of parents who had
been heavily into drugs as teenagers and in college years, and they
decided among themselves that it would help for their teenage children
to hear about some of the bad experiences they had gone through or
witnessed. So they started having informal group discussions about
it. The kids were interviewed and basically said they thought it was
useful and gave them a new perspective from which to think about these
issues. They didn't appear to feel uneasy about hearing that their
parents were less than perfect citizens. The kids all appeared to be
about high-school age. I think, but I'm not certain, that this was
part of a larger report (48-hours or some similar format program)
about the reemergence of LSD as a popular recreational drug.
It was just a small group, and there was certainly nothing in the
report on which one could draw conclusions as to the effectiveness of
this technique, but it seems appealing on a number of levels. For one
thing, personal experiences related by someone you know and trust can
have a far bigger impact than abstract warnings and stories about
total strangers. Second, I expect it can reduce the extent to which
drug use might appeal to kids as a means of rebelling against their
parents. And perhaps as significant as any other reason, it can help
us parents remember what it's really like to be a teenager or young
adult, and help us see things from our children's point of view. I
would expect the latter to be a big part of any effective approach to
helping our children with issues like this.
--
Andy Lowry, lo...@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7925
IBM Research, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
Eber Lambert
>In article <C0uv4...@agora.rain.com> ri...@agora.rain.com (Rick Coates) writes:
>>
>>The one that I find amusing is past drug use. Bill Clinton has nothing
>>on the parents of today. Many parents have "re-written history" on
>>this subject - people who were serious dope smokers in the 70s will
>>tell their kids that they never touched drugs.
>And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would be
>open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
>stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
>or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
>be as eager to experiment.
Actually for some people the problem is different. We certainly
dont want to encourage drug/alcohol abuse but we drink and justify it
by explaining that moderate use of alcohol is ok. I personally think
the same thing is true for most "drugs" but cant say that to my kids
for fear of sending the wrong message and undermining the DARE
brainwashing et al. My wife and I still havent gotten the "Have you ever
tried drugs" question (aside from the dancing around the alcohol question).
My wife is going to deny it I think. I will wing it when the time comes
with lots of "it was different back then" smoke screens etc. Not sure
about the horror stories though... The problem is most of the experiences
were great and a hell of a lot of fun. Its the moderation thing again.
Currently schools are teaching that ALL drug use is bad and that alcohol
is a drug hence social drinking parents do the dance. How do we deal
with the fact that in many cases recreational use of some drugs isnt all
that bad either? Equating drug use with drug addiction is that same as
equating drinking with alcoholism. Kids are going to figure this out .
I also have a feeling that for me this issue is about to surface with my
10YO very soon. I'm surprised it hasnt yet.
el
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Lee on Mandatory Drug Testing: "I've tested lots of drugs but
I dont think it should be mandatory!"
_____________________________________________________________________
Geoffrey Kuenning
> And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would be
> open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
> stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
> or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
> be as eager to experiment.
Horror stories? You're joking, right? If drugs reliably produced
horrible experiences, people wouldn't use them. And trying to keep
kids from experimenting, while otherwise denying the parameters of the
responsible use of intoxicants, is a good way to get them to hide
their experimentation and go way off the deep end.
--
Geoff Kuenning ge...@maui.cs.ucla.edu ge...@ITcorp.com
nancy.l.colucci
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bill Lee on Mandatory Drug Testing: "I've tested lots of drugs but
>I dont think it should be mandatory!"
>_____________________________________________________________________
Nancy Colucci on mandatory drug testing in schools: "Fine, if they start
with the faculty, school board, and PTA."
marxhausen paul
ended up as teetotalers, kind of by default rather than by any ideology,
and neither of us smokes anymore. However, when Anne comments about
someone who smokes or drinks in uninhibitedly negative tones, I try to
make remarks along the lines of, "Well, yes, drinking too much can be
bad / makes it impossible to drive /etc." or "Yeah, smoking isn't good
for you," but try to temper that with the thought that alcohol can be
used in moderate amounts; and more importantly, that someone who does
smoke or drink is _not_ of necessity a Bad Person. One way to get this
point across _is_ to point out that both her Mom and I used to smoke
(not heavily, but that's not the point), or that we may have a drink
once in a great while. I just don't want her giving anybody a hard time
about this.
--
paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ ..........
.. . . . . . university of nebraska - lincoln . . . .. . . .. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . grace . . . .
. . . . . . . . happens .
Ramon Dominguez
=>The dilemma is what to tell them if the from-a-life-long-ago drug experiences
=>were basically good and pleasant and contained nothing horrible.
I am concerned that when the kids finally do experiment with drugs, they will
see that it isn't at all the way they were taught in school. Then they will
disbelieve everything they were taught. It's the Reefer Madness syndrome.
The way that kids are taught about drugs really doesn't make sense, because it's
dishonest. The one thing they never, ever discuss is why people take drugs in
the first place if it's so awful. There's this substance that they are told
will make them sick, make them an addict, a social outcast, ruin their life,
etc., and they know that many people still voluntarily take the stuff and get
addicted. Why? It doesn't make sense on the face of it.
I decided to tell the truth about drugs, especially since kids like being told
when they're being lied to in school. I certainly knew when I was lied to and
appreciated when someone took the time to enlighten me to the way things were.
What I told my stepdaughter is that there is something that they are afraid to
tell you in school. That is that drugs are *fun*. Taking drugs is the most
fun thing in the world to do, and that is what makes them dangerous. It's so
much fun taking drugs that after you've done it, nothing else is fun anymore
except taking more drugs. That's what addiction really is. You take something
like crack, and *everything* is great; music is great, food is great, sex is
great, breathing is great, any joke becomes the funniest thing you've ever
heard in your life. For about fifteen minutes. Then, by comparison, nothing
is fun, nothing is important, nothing tastes or smells good, nothing is inter-
esting, and you just can't be bothered with anything except getting more crack.
Who needs to take a bath, when there's crack? Who needs to eat, when there's
crack? Who needs to waste their time in school or work, when they could be
smoking crack instead?
I believe that this very honest approach is far more likely to keep kids from
wanting to try drugs. When their friends tell her that it isn't really the
way they were taught in school, that drugs are actually a lot of fun, I hope
that she'll say, "Yeah, I know. No, thanks."
________________________________________________________________________________
WARNING: This article may be harmful or fatal if swallowed. Do not insert this
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--ramon (not)
--
Ramon Dominguez | "Work is the curse of the drinking class"
Convex Computer Corporation | --Oscar Wilde
ra...@convex.com | "Ceci n'est pas une .signature file"
Laura Floom
>>
>>The one that I find amusing is past drug use. Bill Clinton has nothing
>>on the parents of today. Many parents have "re-written history" on
>>this subject - people who were serious dope smokers in the 70s will
>>tell their kids that they never touched drugs.
>
>And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would be
>open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
>stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
>or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
>be as eager to experiment.
>
>That is, of course, provided that the kids being told are of an age
>where they can understand, and have a good relationship with their
>parents bvased on honesty.
>
>In my experience, parents who try to make themselves seem all-knowing
>and holy only harbor resentment in their kids.
Oh my, this will cause a problem for me. I only ever used Marajuana, but I
used a lot of it. I started when I was about 16, smoking occasionally. In
college I dated a guy who was really big on pot, and we smoked about 3 times
a day for about a year (then we broke up). After thet my usage remained
fairly heavy (several times a week) for about 3-4 years. Then it dropped into
occasional use (0-5 times a month). This continued until about 4 months before
I conceived Jeffrey (about 4 years ago).
Anyway, if I tell Jeffrey about the evils of drugs, it is going to be a short
discussion. I enjoyed them, and I am hardly an example of someone who messed
up thier live. My husband will have a similar problem. He didnt use them as
much as I did, but he went for a much larger variety, and he too enjoyed them.
Neither of us use drugs anymore, we just outgrew it, along with going to
parties, and all that. I suppose if Ihadnt outgrown it before I became a
parent, I would have stopped then, because one really needs to be on call
24 hours a day.
Most people I know that used drugs also enjoyed them. I do know so people
who messed up thier lives (or ended them prematurely :-( ) because of drugs,
but to be honest, I am not sure if drugs were the cause of the effect of their
problems.
One must be careful in discussing the evils of drugs with children. I
remember seeing a lot of movies in JR High and High Scool. They were
designed to scare us off drugs. They told us that if we tried them we would
end up in the gutter somewhere. They told us that experimenting with MJ
would certainly lead to harder stuff, and eventually Heroine. It didnt take
much observation to see that it just wasnt true. I am certainly proof that
using Marajuana will *not* lead on to anything else, since I decided early
on that marajuana would be fine for me, but nothing else would. Other people
used other stuff, without any problems. Anyway, if you exagerate the
problems when discussing it with kids, you run the risk of them discounting
everything you have to say.
If I were to discuss drugs with a teenager today, I would start by describing
how drugs were used/bought/sold in the 60s/70s, and how they are dealt with
today. There was an innocence to the drug scene back then, that just doesnt
exist today. Now we have gangs, the war on drugs, and all that. I wouldnt
want to be part of that.
Laura Floom
p.s. I bet I have changed my net.image today!
Sandy A
: In article <C0uv4...@agora.rain.com> ri...@agora.rain.com (Rick Coates) writes:
: >
: >The one that I find amusing is past drug use. Bill Clinton has nothing
: >on the parents of today. Many parents have "re-written history" on
: >this subject - people who were serious dope smokers in the 70s will
: >tell their kids that they never touched drugs.
: And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would be
: open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
: stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
: or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
: be as eager to experiment.
But if the "serious dope smoking" parents were truly open and honest,
they wouldn't be telling only horror stories. I doubt parents are
going to sit down with the teens and tell them about the great time
they had getting stoned at Woodstock, or how fun it was to sneak a
joint in the parking lot during school, or how much they enjoyed
tripping on mushrooms on Halloween.
Really, if every drug experience was bad, the "casual user" (which I think
is what we're talking about here) wouldn't do them over and over, would they?
I also think teens are notoriously good at *not* learning from other
people's mistakes. They also have a limited sense of their own mortality,
and lots of curiosity. Which could lead to:
"My dad tried x drug in the sixties. He said he hallucinated for three
days, threw up four times, and thought he would die."
"Cool! Where can we get some?"
DISCLAIMER: I am not advocating lying to children or promoting dishonesty
as the solution to the drug problem. I'm merely humbly offering another
viewpoint.
Sandy
Carol Conell
mainly pertaining to older/read elementary and up/age children,
for those who wanted one.
I have thought about the issue of how to tell my kids what I did
and why I discourage their acting in exactly the same way although
more with regard to sex than drugs.
The truth is that I'm naturally pretty abstemious, neither my husband
nor I drinks or drugs--although we certainly know people who do, and
our drug history looks a lot like what Clinton repesents his as being
--sure we did a bit, but not enough to make much difference, because
we never really found it attractive. Consequently, I find his current
version pretty easy to believe.
So what's in "my guilty past" that I don't want emulated.
I started living with my husband unofficially at 17 and officially
--i.e., we told all the parents--at 18.
My oldest daughter is rapidly approaching 9 and if you think I want
her having sex or falling in love either at 16,17,18 or any sooner
than absolutely necessary guess again.
Even ignoring AIDS, there are all my feminist principles.
I'd love to hear what other people have done. So far it turns out
that we just tell the truth--we haven't quite reached the stage of
being asked why and for recommendations. We're betting on openness/
honesty as paying off, but the proof of the pudding is still a few
years away--I hope a lot.
--
Carol Conell; Sociology; Reed College; Portland, OR 97202 (503) 771-1112
Steven King
|> Anyway, if I tell Jeffrey about the evils of drugs, it is going to be a short
|> discussion. I enjoyed them, and I am hardly an example of someone who messed
|> up thier live. My husband will have a similar problem. He didnt use them as
|> much as I did, but he went for a much larger variety, and he too enjoyed them.
:
:
|> Most people I know that used drugs also enjoyed them. I do know so people
|> who messed up thier lives (or ended them prematurely :-( ) because of drugs,
|> but to be honest, I am not sure if drugs were the cause of the effect of their
|> problems.
The only problem is that a sample-size of a few dozen people does not a study
make. Tobacco has just been declared as harmful as asbestos, yet fourty years
ago everyone thought it was just great. M.D.s even recommended it's use by
pregnant women to reduce birth weight! We cannot predict what the studies will
show regarding the long-term effects of drug usage. It is also difficult to
predict who will become addicted to drugs (e.g. crack) and who will use them
"recreationally." Rather like the difference between enjoying an occasional
beer and _needing_ a fifth of Chevis per day. I doubt that the studies will
deem recreational drug usage as perfectly safe. Some may be more harmful
than others, but why take a chance?
My stance is to tell our children that we used drugs, that we didn't die,
that it wasn't THAT much fun, and why we regret the decision in retrospect.
I will also personally relate that I found much more pleasure in twice
finishing the Ironman, and that working towards positive goals can be much
more satisfying than the use of a substance to get high. I think that they
will be able to relate to that kind of honesty, and perhaps it will prompt
them to think more about the possible long-term health consequences. They
may not accept the insight as valid, but at least I'll be honest about both
sides of the issue.
|> One must be careful in discussing the evils of drugs with children.
:
:
|> Anyway, if you exagerate the
|> problems when discussing it with kids, you run the risk of them discounting
|> everything you have to say.
True. But should I tell our children that I drove like a maniac (I did) in
High-school but lived to tell about it? It WAS fun at the time. Or, should
I tell him how lucky I was since I didn't run over some child when ripping
around a residential area at 50 MPH?
|> If I were to discuss drugs with a teenager today, I would start by describing
|> how drugs were used/bought/sold in the 60s/70s, and how they are dealt with
|> today. There was an innocence to the drug scene back then, that just doesnt
|> exist today. Now we have gangs, the war on drugs, and all that. I wouldnt
|> want to be part of that.
Good point.
|> p.s. I bet I have changed my net.image today!
Haven't we all?
Steven (s...@strl.labs.tek.com)
"Sometimes if you have a cappuccino and then try again it will work OK."
(Dr. Brian Reid) "Sometimes one cappuccino isn't enough." (Marcus Ranum)
"A double vanilla latte always works." (Me)
Pete Lancashire
>In article <C0uv4...@agora.rain.com> ri...@agora.rain.com (Rick Coates) writes:
>>
>>The one that I find amusing is past drug use. Bill Clinton has nothing
>>on the parents of today. Many parents have "re-written history" on
>>this subject - people who were serious dope smokers in the 70s will
>>tell their kids that they never touched drugs.
>And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would be
>open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
>stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
>or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
>be as eager to experiment.
>That is, of course, provided that the kids being told are of an age
>where they can understand, and have a good relationship with their
>parents bvased on honesty.
>In my experience, parents who try to make themselves seem all-knowing
>and holy only harbor resentment in their kids.
One of the kids I worked with who just turned 12, had been in trouble
for smoking pot. I asked him why ? Because his parents gave him
'if you do we will kill you' line, guess what, He had over heard his
mother talking to an old friend about the 'good weed' they had grown in
college. He just wanted to get back at his mother.
I know this is just part of the this kids family problems but.....
-pete
Pete Lancashire
pe...@sequent.com
Keith E Gatling
> And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would
> be open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the
> horror stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or
> tripping or whatever, or while watching others do same, their
> kids might not be as eager to experiment.
> That is, of course, provided that the kids being told are of an
> age where they can understand, and have a good relationship with
> their parents bvased on honesty.
> In my experience, parents who try to make themselves seem
> all-knowing and holy only harbor resentment in their kids.
Actually, although our own kid isn't due for another three weeks, my wife
and I do have a very good relationship with a 14 year old we know from
church, and I have told her point blank that when I was in college I did
pot. I also told her that things were different back then, that people
honestly thought that the laws should be and were going to be changed, since
the stuff was "no worse than alcohol," but that things have changed since
then...that the strength of the drug has changed, and we have also taken a
much different view of just how "harmless" alcohol is. For the record, she
thinks I was a very stupid college student...and I'm glad she does.
Oh yeah...and I have *no* horror stories either, since I did my research and
deicded that anything further up the food chain from pot was a stupid move.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Keith E Gatling kgat...@mailbox.syr.edu *
* Opinions? I've got plenty of them. Just ask my wife! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
D. C. Sessions
#
# In article <1993Jan15....@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> na...@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (nancy.l.colucci) writes:
#
# > And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would be
# > open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
# > stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
# > or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
# > be as eager to experiment.
#
# Horror stories? You're joking, right? If drugs reliably produced
# horrible experiences, people wouldn't use them. And trying to keep
# kids from experimenting, while otherwise denying the parameters of the
# responsible use of intoxicants, is a good way to get them to hide
# their experimentation and go way off the deep end.
Ever noticed that drugs go in and out of fashion? It's because kids
don't believe second-hand wisdom. One generation does a fairly
good job of keeping clean, so their kids have nothing but parental
I-say-so to keep them out of trouble. Then they go out and find out
the hard way. The witnesses are SERIOUSLY anti-drug. (Try staying
up with a friend all night just trying to keep him breathing!)
Then, of course, the cycle starts all over again.
BTW, anyone noticed that a lot of kids have been told this-and-that
about "drugs" but don't have a clue what they ARE? We had a hard
time explaining to ours but finally drilled in that they are
"chemicals that change the way your body works."
Yes, that includes the wine we have on Friday night. It also
includes the bronchodilators that the boys take for their asthma.
Does that mean that these aren't DANGEROUS? Hell, NO! Which is
why we drill in that they NEVER take even their asthma meds
without parental supervision. Baruch HaShem, they've got it.
I'm more than willing to get up at 0200 to watch a boy who is
scared stiff (ever had a bad asthma attack?) take his own
meds even though he doesn't need any help from me. And HE
waits for me to get up even though he is scared and doesn't
need me for anything except permission.
(Now that they can read we have them read the inserts that come
with their meds. The "adverse effects" section is scary, folks.
Then we point out that this is the stuff that is safe enough to
be LEGAL.)
--- D. C. Sessions Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address: d...@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail (DOS mail/news shell) ---
marxhausen paul
limited depth: but I've been a youth advisor in a Lutheran church for sev-
eral years and so I've had several runs at how to discuss this with my
friends there - and that's how these teenagers are to me, I consider them
my friends.
I'm not feeding them any "horror stories", since my seriously scary times
are limited to a handful of panic attacks while doped up, but I do tell them:
I really enjoyed dope for a while, but over time it "wasted" a number of
important experiences that would otherwise would have been enjoyable.
A live concert that had me extremely excited, reduced to muddled impressions;
my piano jury finals, smooth in practice, punted away due to previous nights
indulgence; and so it goes. In many ways our experiences were fun,
innocuous, silly...but so much of it was just a waste. Sooner or later,
almost everyone I knew in that scene came to this realization, but I run
into adults who, while harmless, are basically have made their lives into
mellow, insignificant, directionless backwaters through substance abuse.
So it's not the catastrophic, barrel-bottom experiences that I consider
the most significant; it's the possibility of becoming comfortable in a
trivial and sedated existence.
Brighid
Just to add my data point to this discussion. While I won't be a Mom
until May, my husband and I did have his 17 year old sister as a
summer-long guest last year. (A small try at being parents to a teenager.)
:)
My husband's family is very non-traditional. His mother is still a
very strong holdover from the 60's and 70's; Dad somewhat less so.
I believe that the younger kids (now 17, 18 and 19) have seen what
the combination of long term recreational drug use plus a living only
in the present viewpoint can do for one's long term happiness. (Mom
is not the most happy person in the world.)
We simply told Phaedra when she came to visit "Don't do anything illegal.
And we don't think you'd be happy being pregnant, so we'd rather you
didn't get pregnant. Please don't get AIDS, we love you too much. Please
let us know if you've gone out and about when to expect you back." Those
were our house rules and, for the summer, they worked out fine.
We put in the "don't do anything illegal" because we live in a small
town (apprx 1500 people) and any time anyone does anything, everyone
knows about it. We have very little crime as a result. (If you get
caught skipping school, it usually shows up in the paper. :) ) If she
had decided to drink or do drugs to any extent, we would have known
about it. While we don't particularly disapprove, I don't think she'd
enjoy the legal issues.
I just hope that our town will be as quiet and safe in 13 years from
now when our child is a teenager...
Brighid
bri...@bass.lkw.com
David Kassover
>dont want to encourage drug/alcohol abuse but we drink and justify it
>by explaining that moderate use of alcohol is ok. I personally think
>the same thing is true for most "drugs" but cant say that to my kids
>for fear of sending the wrong message and undermining the DARE
>brainwashing et al.
The DARE agenda, as I understand it to be practiced, is most
deserving of undermining.
>Currently schools are teaching that ALL drug use is bad and that alcohol
>is a drug hence social drinking parents do the dance. How do we deal
>with the fact that in many cases recreational use of some drugs isnt all
>that bad either? Equating drug use with drug addiction is that same as
>equating drinking with alcoholism. Kids are going to figure this out .
Don't believe everything that is taught in school. Teach your
children to be discriminating.
--
David Kassover "Proper technique helps protect you against
uupsi!khazad!kassover sharp weapons and dull judges."
kass...@aule-tek.com F. Collins
kass...@ra.crd.ge.com
uxg...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
using days... Dont you think quite a few of these children will
have an attitude of, 'well mom and dad did it, so they cant say
anything if I do it'?
Of course these are probably the same kids who would have done it
one way or another.
Craig Becker
kass...@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) writes:
> elam...@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Eber Lambert) writes:
...
> >Currently schools are teaching that ALL drug use is bad and that alcohol
> >is a drug hence social drinking parents do the dance. How do we deal
> >with the fact that in many cases recreational use of some drugs isnt all
>
> Don't believe everything that is taught in school. Teach your
> children to be discriminating.
BZZZZT! Sorry Eber! Recreational use of drugs _is_ bad! Think
about what happens if you get arrested for it. Think about what
happens if your _kid_ gets arrested for it.
Craig
--
-- "You will have the tallest, Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
-- darkest leading man in Internet: jlpi...@austin.ibm.com --
-- Hollywood." IBM TR: jlpi...@woofer.austin.ibm.com --
-- - Merian C. Cooper to Fay Wray VNET: JLPICARD at AUSVM1 --
Laura Floom
>In reading the discussion on telling your children about your drug
>using days... Dont you think quite a few of these children will
>have an attitude of, 'well mom and dad did it, so they cant say
>anything if I do it'?
of course many of us had parents that *never* did it. In fact, most of us.
Meanwhile my parents did a lot of bad things to their bodies that I chose not
to do - like smoking.
>
>Of course these are probably the same kids who would have done it
>one way or another.
and I am sure that lots of kids out there sho's parents can say they never
tried it will also try it. I am not sure what point you are trying to make.
I guess the best thing we can do is rear our kids to be responsible adults who
will make the correct decisions for them, and not just do things because
everyone else is doing it.
Laura Floom
Eber Lambert
>...
>> >Currently schools are teaching that ALL drug use is bad and that alcohol
>> >is a drug hence social drinking parents do the dance. How do we deal
>> >with the fact that in many cases recreational use of some drugs isnt all
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >that bad either? Equating drug use with drug addiction is that same as
> ^^^^^^^^
>> >equating drinking with alcoholism. Kids are going to figure this out .
>>
>BZZZZT! Sorry Eber! Recreational use of drugs _is_ bad! Think
>about what happens if you get arrested for it. Think about what
>happens if your _kid_ gets arrested for it.
Judges? No! Sorry Craig, this line only encourages the abuse of alcohol
in my book.
I am more concerned about the health and principles surrounding the issue
rather than the (arbitrary) laws making some drugs legal and others not.
As a matter of fact its that hypocrisy which makes the whole discussion
of drug use with kids that much more difficult. Kids are experts at
picking up on hypocrisy (real or perceived) and using it to justify
an action which is in the hazy area of right and wrong . They
(at least my two) do this from a very young age. The questioning of
authority is also a cornerstone of adolescence ... telling them not
to do something just because its against the rules isnt going to work.
In fact it will possibly do just the opposite, enabling the "Taboo"
mechanism which is another key element in the adolescent thought
process.
el
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ever notice how sex and drugs are slowly becoming the same thing?"
- Norman Humal
_______________________________________________________________________
Laura E. Floom
>In article <1j7c76...@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>, lau...@classy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Laura Floom) writes:
>|> Anyway, if I tell Jeffrey about the evils of drugs, it is going to be a short
>|> discussion. I enjoyed them, and I am hardly an example of someone who messed
>|> up thier live. My husband will have a similar problem. He didnt use them as
>|> much as I did, but he went for a much larger variety, and he too enjoyed them.
>:
>:
>|> Most people I know that used drugs also enjoyed them. I do know so people
>|> who messed up thier lives (or ended them prematurely :-( ) because of drugs,
>|> but to be honest, I am not sure if drugs were the cause of the effect of their
>|> problems.
>The only problem is that a sample-size of a few dozen people does not a study
>make. Tobacco has just been declared as harmful as asbestos, yet fourty years
>ago everyone thought it was just great. M.D.s even recommended it's use by
>pregnant women to reduce birth weight! We cannot predict what the studies will
>show regarding the long-term effects of drug usage. It is also difficult to
True, of course that wasnt the point of this thread. The point was Nancy's
suggestion that we tell our kids about our bad experiences with drugs, yet,
for many people, there werent any bad experiences. Nancy seems to think we
all had bad trips.
>|> One must be careful in discussing the evils of drugs with children.
>:
>:
>|> Anyway, if you exagerate the
>|> problems when discussing it with kids, you run the risk of them discounting
>|> everything you have to say.
>True. But should I tell our children that I drove like a maniac (I did) in
>High-school but lived to tell about it? It WAS fun at the time. Or, should
>I tell him how lucky I was since I didn't run over some child when ripping
>around a residential area at 50 MPH?
Or should you lie and tell them it was no fun at all? That is analogous with
what we were talking about. You have to realize that teens are notorious
in assuming that bad things wont happen to them. If your parents had a similar
discussion with you as a teen about the evils of driving dangerously, would
you have listened?
Inevitably teens are going to make big mistakes in their lives. Hopefully
none of them will have lasting repercussions. I just dont think telling
teens that they cant do something because it is evil|dangerous|illegal|etc
is going to work. You have to make sure your kids have the self confidence
and common sense to make the right decision. BTW, I didnt drive like a maniac,
because it seemed really dumb to me. I didnt drink cause I dont like the
feeling. I didnt use any drugs because I sensed ti wouldnt be the right for
me. I didnt drive when stoned. I smoked a lot of pot. Compared to alot of
teens, I did ok, and came out OK. You wont be able to give your kids a
check list of things they can or cannot do, becuase you will have no idea
what they will come up with. You cannot expect your kids to only try things
that you did, and later realized it was a bad idea. You certainly cant lie
to your kids about questionable things you did, and still dont regret. I
think you need to work with your kids on a more basic level.
I worked with a just out of college student, who clearly thought a coworker
and I were scum because we used drugs and they are illegal. She goes out
drinking most weekends, and brags about how drunk she was. I am sure she
drank before the legal age, and also she seems to have driven drunk. I
think the DARE program (or whatever) turned her into a anti-drug twit who
just spouts propaganda, but cant apply it to her life. What ever progam
she went through failed, BIGTIME!
Laura Floom
Craig Becker
elam...@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Eber Lambert) writes:
> jlpi...@austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker) writes:
>
> >...
> >> >Currently schools are teaching that ALL drug use is bad and that alcohol
> >> >is a drug hence social drinking parents do the dance. How do we deal
> >> >with the fact that in many cases recreational use of some drugs isnt all
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >that bad either? Equating drug use with drug addiction is that same as
> > ^^^^^^^^
> >> >equating drinking with alcoholism. Kids are going to figure this out .
> >>
>
> >BZZZZT! Sorry Eber! Recreational use of drugs _is_ bad! Think
> >about what happens if you get arrested for it. Think about what
> >happens if your _kid_ gets arrested for it.
>
> Judges? No! Sorry Craig, this line only encourages the abuse of alcohol
> in my book.
Sorry, Eber...it was an attempt at sarcasm. Altho I'm not sure how it
encourages alcohol abuse...
> I am more concerned about the health and principles surrounding the issue
> rather than the (arbitrary) laws making some drugs legal and others not.
> As a matter of fact its that hypocrisy which makes the whole discussion
> of drug use with kids that much more difficult. Kids are experts at
> picking up on hypocrisy (real or perceived) and using it to justify
> an action which is in the hazy area of right and wrong . They
> (at least my two) do this from a very young age. The questioning of
> authority is also a cornerstone of adolescence ... telling them not
> to do something just because its against the rules isnt going to work.
> In fact it will possibly do just the opposite, enabling the "Taboo"
> mechanism which is another key element in the adolescent thought
> process.
Yes, I agree with you completely. However, I think it's important
that kids realize the, how to put this?, "non-physical" damage that
can result from drug use...a 17 year old, otherwise healthy,
intelligent, college-bound kid who gets busted for drug possession
can see their whole life go down the tubes. Just another reason to
despise the current anti-drug hysteria in this country.
Hmmm...this is be a bit off the subject, but I'd suggest that parents
(and schools), if they're really interested in helping a child make it
in life, teach how to handle themselves if they get busted (for anything,
not just drugs).
Also, has anyone out there seen the current state of "drug education"
(and I use the term loosely) in school? Does it still consist of the
gym coach showing bad movies in health class? Or have they gotten more
sophisticated in their brainwash^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H education efforts?
Craig
_Definitely_ not the opinion of my employer.
nancy.l.colucci
Yeah, horror stories and no, I'm NOT kidding. Yes getting high was a
riot, makes for some great dorm room discussions and fabulous sex. But
do you also remember that time Sheila freaked out and you had to keep
her from calling her parents (this was the 70's, remember) asking for help
with her bad high? Or what about the time you got so wasted at the concert
that you had to have people help you get back to your room because you didn't
know who you were?
Or the time you and your roommate made those Alice B's and your
high hit you bigtime right in the middle of an anthropology lecture when
the instructor called on you for a response?
Or better yet, that party you went to where they had to get you up and
walking around before your ten BIG lines of coke completely did you in?
And the heavy blues afterward when you almost killed yourself?
*Those* horror stories, man. And stuff like coke DOES reliably produce
horror stories. Part of the real shit behind that drug is the way it
fools the brain into thinking it's the greatest substance on the planet.
Maybe using it isn't a horrible experience my friend, but quitting certainly
is.
Share that stuff with your kids, when the time is right. If they trust you,
there is a good chance they'll listen.
nancy.l.colucci
>
>True, of course that wasnt the point of this thread. The point was Nancy's
>suggestion that we tell our kids about our bad experiences with drugs, yet,
>for many people, there werent any bad experiences. Nancy seems to think we
>all had bad trips.
Nancy just remembers not only one or two of her own, but also what she
saw happen to others. Yes I ran with the crowd in college, out of college,
and I still know where they play today if I wanted to find them. But the
bad stuff I saw made enough of an impression on me that I chose to aviod
certain substances that can cost me my life. I see no problem with sharing
that with my son should he ask, thank you very much Laura Floom.
If that didn't happen to you, then this thread doesn't apply does it?
Laura Floom
>
>If that didn't happen to you, then this thread doesn't apply does it?
>--
Why not? I am, by your terminology, a Pothead of the 70's, and
I am rearing children. I think it is an important discussion. I dont
know why you brought it up if you didnt expect people to have opposing
views/experiences.
I sure hope this isnt main tactic for keeping your childen drug free,
but if it is, you will need an answer for:
"If drugs are so awful/unpleasant then why do so many people
do them?"
I remember grappling with that one, and finding out for myself that it
really isnt so awful, infact it was rather fun. I am sure at some time
in my childhood I was told something like "dont hit your head with a
hammer, it will hurt", if I had looked around to see lots of people
hitting thier heads with hammers, I would have thought maybe it is
worth trying. (stupid example, but the best I could come up with) Kids
are going to want to learn things for themselves, and the best you can do
for them is give them the sense of selfworth and responsibilty to be
able to deal with it.
You dont seem to like me saying this. Too bad!
Laura Floom
Lynn Gazis
I want to discourage my children from doing, but I can't
think how I would talk to them about it.
1. I rode in cars driven by people who were high. I *really*
want my children not to do this. The problem is, I also *really*
didn't want to do this at the time I did it; I just was incapable
of detecting whether people were high or drunk until well after
they were beyond the point where they should be driving. I
didn't realize until after I had gotten in the car that they
were high. So I am not sure how I would ensure that my children
wouldn't do this.
2. Sex. I made an effort to be responsible about this, as I
understood it: I made sure to avoid any unwanted pregnancy by
only having intercourse with one man before I met my husband,
and being on the pill at the time. The thing I regret is,
I wasn't assertive enough with men who wanted to pursue me
when I wasn't interested. I waited too long to be firm in
telling them no, I gave explanations when asked for them and
then got arguments, when I should have just told them not to
bother arguing, and I sometimes allowed things I didn't really
want. I'm not sure how best to talk to kids about that. I'm
also not sure how to best strike a balance in discussing the
dangers and pleasures of sex (I want to encourage responsibility
without sounding as if I think sex is a bad thing).
As for drugs, I can't honestly say I really do regret my experiences
with drugs. I smoked pot about once a week for about a year,
tried cocaine once and mushrooms once, and then gave it all
up because computers were more interesting. I used to drink
about half a glass of wine a month and then gave it up because
I didn't like it that much. None of it was that risky, and
I was careful about the amount and circumstances I used. Neither
was it all that fun. If I had it to do over, I would skip the
cocaine. On the other hand, I'd probably be happier to have
my kids skip all of it, since you never know for certain who
will be able to handle it and who will turn out to be an addict.
And I also am not really sure how I would discuss my drug
experience with my kids. It seems to me that my drug experience
would only encourage them to go ahead. Some of my friends'
drug experiences, on the other hand, were more disturbing
(and one reason for my avoiding drugs now - the other is just
that time on drugs would be time I couldn't spend doing a lot
of other things which interest me, and which take too much
concentration to do on drugs).
Lynn Gazis-Sax
civ...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
>
>>> >with the fact that in many cases recreational use of some drugs isnt all
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >that bad either? Equating drug use with drug addiction is that same as
> ^^^^^^^^
>>
> about what happens if you get arrested for it. Think about what
> happens if your _kid_ gets arrested for it.
>
> Craig
> --
That does not make drug-use bad per se. It might make it risky but
risky does not mean bad.
In any case there a many drugs that one can use recreationally which are legal
so risk of arrest is not an issue.
If this is your main worry about "drugs", have you considered standing up
and trying to restore a bit of freedom to your society. Stop the war on
selected drugs. Relegalise them.
--
Brandon Hutchison,University of Canterbury,Christchurch
New Zealand
civ...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
>> >> >is a drug hence social drinking parents do the dance. How do we deal
>> >> >with the fact that in many cases recreational use of some drugs isnt all
>> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >> >that bad either?
It could be beneficial in fact. See this study from the "National Bureau of
Economic Research.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the "New Internationalist" December 1992
Drug Users defy Stereotype
The presumption is this: drugs lead to addiction.Addiction leads to
desperation.Desperation leads to crime.People who use drugs are doomed to
failure.These are the messages behind the official anti-drugs campaigns.
Yet there is growing evidence that such campaigns don't work because they are
not true.
Most startling is the relationship between drugs and wages. Young cocaine
and marijuana users actually earn higher salaries than non-users, according to
a long-term study conducted by the National Bureau of Economic Research in
New York. The drug-use habits of 5000 young adults were compared across the
US. The survey was first done in 1984 and repeated in 1989 to the same group
of people, with an average age of 24 and then 27. It shows drug users do not
drop out of the workforce quicker than drug-free employees. In fact they are
often the most inquisitive and talented people at the workplace.
(from the Pacific News Service,August 1992
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Marshall Manning
>>True, of course that wasnt the point of this thread. The point was Nancy's
>>suggestion that we tell our kids about our bad experiences with drugs, yet,
>>for many people, there werent any bad experiences. Nancy seems to think we
>>all had bad trips.
na...@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (nancy.l.colucci) writes:
>Nancy just remembers not only one or two of her own, but also what she
^^^^^^^^^^
>saw happen to others. Yes I ran with the crowd in college, out of college,
>and I still know where they play today if I wanted to find them. But the
If Nancy had more than one (1) bad experience before she quit for
good then she may not be as bright as she'd like us to think.
Certainly we must doubt the idea that second and third hand stories
of bad experiences will dissuade experimentation if actually having
the experiences doesn't?
>bad stuff I saw made enough of an impression on me that I chose to aviod
>certain substances that can cost me my life. I see no problem with sharing
>that with my son should he ask, thank you very much Laura Floom.
>If that didn't happen to you, then this thread doesn't apply does it?
Problem is, it doesn't seem to apply to much of anyone but you.
It sounds like you're just floating what you think might be a swell
idea but even you've never yet tried to put it into practice.
Please drop me a line when you've successfully reared a housefull of
children past young adulthood without them showing the signs of
acute lack of common sense you did. If you still consider
discussions of your drug experiences an important part of that
success at the time I'll be interested. Me, I'm betting on teaching
mine to think and not reminiscing too much about my overwhelmingly
positive experiences with drugs...
<<<<<<<<<< Evan M. Manning ======= man...@alumni.caltech.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>
Your eyes are weary from staring at the CRT. You feel sleepy. Notice how
restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions
stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
Elise Wade
>>
>>The one that I find amusing is past drug use. Bill Clinton has nothing
>>on the parents of today. Many parents have "re-written history" on
>>this subject - people who were serious dope smokers in the 70s will
>>tell their kids that they never touched drugs.
>
>open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
>stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
>or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
>be as eager to experiment.
>
>where they can understand, and have a good relationship with their
>parents bvased on honesty.
>
>In my experience, parents who try to make themselves seem all-knowing
>and holy only harbor resentment in their kids.
>-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+
>Nance Colucci att!ihlpl!colucci
>"I'm a writer. Be nice, or you'll wake up one day and be a story."
>-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+
Not that I'd avocate being dishonest with your children (a very
bad policy) but I'd think that going out of your way to talk
about the horrors of drug use might have the opposite affect.
After all the parent survived just fine, so it must be OK?
Forensic pathologist generally restrict distribution of suicide
photos because they've got some very convincing evidence that
such photos and other details of a suicide actually *encourage*
more like attempts. Similarly some of the programs where former
convicts come and talk to high school kids were discontinued
because the kids were deciding that crime was quite doable,
prision wasn't so bad, and everything would work out because
the ex-cons who talked to them did well.
Anyway, I think caution is called for -- role models aren't
always estabilished with any logic.
Elise.
diane.e.pedersen
The point about drugs (esp. marijuana) I'd like to make to my
kids when the time comes is the Erosion Effect. That's when
each individual usage seems pretty harmless in itself, but
taken as a sum over time, there is an erosian of your life
potential. You're not learning as well in school, you're
not doing anything constructive in the time spent intoxicated . . .
In the long-run, drug use can determine whether you end up
with a first-rate, second-rate, or third-rate career.
Just like erosion -- you can't see each day's wear-and-tear, but
you can sure see a few years' erosion.
--
Diane Pedersen
AT&T Bell Laboratories
Naperville, Illinois
att!ihlpe!elonich
Brent S Noorda
children. This fills our lives because it gives us someone to have
control over. And after giving up pot we forget that a life can be
complete even when we're not controlling someone.
Now that I've had experience with both pot and children, I prefer pot.
Alan Harder
>kass...@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) writes:
>> elam...@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Eber Lambert) writes:
>...
>> >Currently schools are teaching that ALL drug use is bad and that alcohol
>> >is a drug hence social drinking parents do the dance. How do we deal
>> >with the fact that in many cases recreational use of some drugs isnt all
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >that bad either? Equating drug use with drug addiction is that same as
> ^^^^^^^^
>> >equating drinking with alcoholism. Kids are going to figure this out .
>>
>> Don't believe everything that is taught in school. Teach your
>> children to be discriminating.
>BZZZZT! Sorry Eber! Recreational use of drugs _is_ bad! Think
>about what happens if you get arrested for it. Think about what
>happens if your _kid_ gets arrested for it.
So, in your opinion, if something is *illegal*, and it has harsh
penalties for being caught, it is "bad"? If everyone thought this
way, we'd still be a colony of the British Empire! The unfortunate
thing about this is that some of the same people that feel this way
about illegal drug use are the same people who are illegally filling
out fraudelent tax returns and illegally blockading abortion clinics.
I will certainly point out to my children that getting caught doing
illegal drugs would be a "bad" experience!
It has long been known that teaching a child that something is "bad"
just because it is illegal doesn't work too well. Discussing the pros
and cons of illegal and legal drug use with your child will not leave
them feeling like they have just received an order, but have been
allowed to make their own informed decision. A much better strategy,
in my opinion. This, unfortunately, is contrary to the DARE way of
brainwashing. Relating to your child the reasons for your past drug
use, and the reasons for quitting may just give your child the
knowledge and confidence it takes to resist peer pressure to do drugs.
-Alan Harder
a...@math.ams.org
nancy.l.colucci
>In article <1993Jan19....@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> na...@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (nancy.l.colucci) writes:
>>
>>If that didn't happen to you, then this thread doesn't apply does it?
>I am rearing children. I think it is an important discussion. I dont
>know why you brought it up if you didnt expect people to have opposing
>views/experiences.
My point was that it might be a good idea to share some of the horror
stories you had with drugs, with your kids. If you don't agree with my
suggestion/opinion/directive/edict/whatever-you-name-it, then by all means
post if you wish. If I don't agree/strongly agree/etc. ad nauseum, you
might see a response from me to that. Thus begins the usenet cycle of life.
Yes? Problem??
Now. Suppose we were discussing safe driving habits, and someone suggested
you be honest with your kids about traffic tickets you received. If you
never got any, then that wouldn't apply. Same with the horror stories I
referenced. I hope that clears this up.
>
>I sure hope this isnt main tactic for keeping your childen drug free,
>but if it is, you will need an answer for:
(Hope WHAT isn't the main tactic?)
>
>I remember grappling with that one, and finding out for myself that it
>really isnt so awful, infact it was rather fun.
The more I think about the possibility of my kid experimenting with drugs
and compare it to my own experiences, there are places in his life where
he and I won't see eye-to-eye and he will go his own way, as did I when
I was younger. Being honest and raising him in a home where mutual
respect abounds is the best I can do, and I hope the results are the same
(or better) than mine. I seem to have done just fine - there are things
I wish someone could have warned me about but I doubt I'd have listened.
It may have been nice to hear them, though, from someone I respected and
unfortunately my parents didn't cut it in that area.
We had people come and talk to us in high school - representatives
from Alcoholics Anonymous, Gamblers Anonymous, and one ex-junkie I
remember - and their true life experiences DID sink in. They came
across as older versions of what we could become if we weren't careful.
Some listened; some didn't.
>
>You dont seem to like me saying this. Too bad!
That's just NOT the issue. Not at all. Reducing my disagreement with
you to a personal level won't get ANY point across.
--
-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+-+*+
Nance Colucci att!ihlpl!colucci
"I'm not asking a question; I'm making a statement. Let me finish
and then you can answer it." Dan Quayle to Al Gore, 10-13-92
Judi Mancuso
>>>The one that I find amusing is past drug use. Bill Clinton has nothing
>>>on the parents of today. Many parents have "re-written history" on
>>>this subject - people who were serious dope smokers in the 70s will
>>>tell their kids that they never touched drugs.
>>
>>And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would be
>>open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
>>stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
>>or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
>>be as eager to experiment.
>>
>>That is, of course, provided that the kids being told are of an age
>>where they can understand, and have a good relationship with their
>>parents bvased on honesty.
>>
>>In my experience, parents who try to make themselves seem all-knowing
>>and holy only harbor resentment in their kids.
I have thought about this quite often because my husband and I were real
big pot smokers from the age of about 18 until around 25. I quit right
before I conceived, he quit right after our son was born (8 years
ago)--and our quitting was not this big deal--in fact, if his job would
not be in jeporady because of it (mandatory unannounced drug tests)--we
would probably use it recreationally here and there (although I would
not have the slightest idea of where to get it now). We experimented
with qualudes, hash and speed a few times but we did not have the money
or interest to continue. Like some other posters, we did not have any
BAD experiences with the stuff. Now, we are not advocating that we tell
our kids that "hey, we had a great time with it, try it" or "we loved it
but you should not do it" but I think there is a decent balance. I
doubt that I would say "No, I never tried it". One interesting point
here that my husband and I feel very uncomfortable with is *what* our
son is learning about smoking and alcohol. We realize that drugs,
cigarettes and alcohol are hurtful and dangerous when they are being
abused--but to equate them all together is wrong. We drink socially--and
it is not uncommon for us to have a wine or beer in the evening--or even
have a bottle of wine with us while we watch TV or play games on the
weekend. I was a smoker up until I conceived my daughter. Some of the
most important people in our lives are smokers--they dearly love my
children and they are special, wonderful people and they smoke. We
allow smoking in our home--although we do not encourage it--sometimes my
son's behavior while these people are smoking is terrible--"you are
taking drugs", "cigarettes will kill you", "you are killing me"--while
none of these are wrong (except the one about cigarettes being
drugs)--what messages is he hearing himself here? That people he loves
and who love him will knowingly and recklessly kill themselves or kill
him? And, if these people can use "drugs" then it is okay for him to do
drugs too? Although he is not as verbal about alcohol, he does recite
similiar things when we or others are drinking in his presence. I am
not really upset about the embarrassment he causes these people or
myself--afterall, we are the adults here. But, I am deeply troubled by
the messages being sent to him. I feel it is a little irrational to ban
drinking and smoking (although I do encourage people not to smoke around
the baby) around my son just so that we are not feeding into these
messages that he is hearing from school. Now, I am by no means saying
that there is this constant stream of smoking going on--because this is
not the case at all--nor am I saying that drinking is abused in any way
in our home----but it does go on occasionally and many times people we
love dearly and people he loves dearly are doing it---enough said.
As for the marijuana issue--I am sure we will have to face it one of
these days. I do not want to be dishonest or hypocritical-- so I will
probably handle it with a respect for what exactly he is asking and what
level of understanding he has at that time. I have the same awful
feeling about discussing premarital sex with my kids---hey, I did it,
enjoyed it and can't really say that it ruined my life in any way---then
again, AIDS wasn't really an issue and I had healthy relationships that
included sex. I better not leave the subject here--it can really tie
your stomach in knots just thinking about all the complex things we, as
parents, can and will deal with as we move along this journey of
parenthood. That is why this board is so fabulous---we are all moving
along together. Judi Mancuso
Judy Tryer
applies to both those parents who have and those who have not used or abused
drugs.
People have different body chemistries and what is enjoyable to one person
may be completely unpleasant to another. However, I believe that there is
some drug that will be pleasant to each person, so pleasant that having once
experienced the drug, that person will have a problem with craving that
drug for the rest of his or her life. For some it is alcohol, for others
barbiturates. Some are perscription drugs, some are legal drugs, and some are
on the forbidden list. But I don't think that matters as much as what will
happen if you sample a drug which is the right chemical balance for your
system.
Do you want to risk the possibility of doing battle with a drug for the rest
of your life? Do you want to either be high all day, want to be high all
day, or be in rehab trying not to want to be high all day? Listening to
those in this situation makes it sound like a very unpleasant experience.
I don't think the drug itself is the risk. It is the addiction to the drug
that is the danger and here lots of drugs, including lots of pharmeceuticals,
have that potential. Watch what your doctor gives you, not just what you
can pick up at the corner dealer.
--
Judy Leedom Tyrer
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" - William Blake
Laura Floom
>
>People have different body chemistries and what is enjoyable to one person
>may be completely unpleasant to another. However, I believe that there is
>some drug that will be pleasant to each person, so pleasant that having once
>experienced the drug, that person will have a problem with craving that
>drug for the rest of his or her life. For some it is alcohol, for others
There is some truth in what you are saying but only if the person has an
addictive personality. I knew someone who had a major problem with coke.
I heard stories from te first (of several) rehabs she went thru. Basically,
the patients were strongly encouraged to give up all other drugs (alcohol
being the biggie) because it is common of addictive personalities to trade
one drug for another. They didnt particarly address tabacco, so that by the
end of the rehab most of the people were practically chain smokers. I have
heard that most AA meetings are one big cloud of smoke.
The counselor from the rehab said that addictive personalities tend to be
genetic. The woman had two kids (early teen and mid teen), and was encouraged
to seek counseling for both kids. It was felt that it is possible to determine
if a child exhibits the traits that make them suseptible to addictions. Her
daughter was considered a low risk, and her son a high risk.
I think we all know people who wouldnt dream of touching alcohol because they
grew up with an alcoholic, and was afraid of turning out the same way. I
think if someone had a history of drug addiction (or alcohol) in thier family
it would be well worth making sure the children realize there is a genetic
predispostion. In anycase addiction is something that all kids need to
understand, but like all other evils-of-drugs stories, kids may not necessarily
think it applies to them.
On the other hand, many of us did have pleasant experienses with drugs and
did not get addicted, or even close. This wouldnt work as a blanket
argument, because teens are going to realize that.
Laura Floom
MICHELLE MADER
This sounds like the most incredible bull to me. First of all, most
drug use is illegal and you are going to have a hard time finding
people who will tell you the truth about theirs, especially at work.
How many unemployed people were included in this study?
I am acquainted with many people in their 30's & 40's who use pot.
They have little or no drive and initiative. When I saw the recent
TV commercial where two grown men are smoking (pot) at home, mom comes
home and asks if they've looked for a job, and they state as they're
frantically fanning smoke out the window, "I've been smoking for
years and nothings ever happened to me!" I could have sworn they'd
interviewed some of the people I know.
Stephen R. Savitzky
sometimes my
son's behavior while these people are smoking is terrible--"you are
taking drugs", "cigarettes will kill you", "you are killing me"--while
none of these are wrong (except the one about cigarettes being
drugs)
That's right, too -- nicotine is more addictive than heroin, and worse
for your health. I'm trying to teach my kids that some drugs that are
good for you, and some that are bad (and that even the good ones are
good only if you need them -- I don't want them gulping a bottle of
aspirin any more than I want them hooked on something illegal).
--
\ --Steve Savitzky-- \ 343 Leigh Ave \ REAL HACKERS USE AN AXE!
\ st...@crc.ricoh.COM \ San Jose, CA 95128 \ Free Cyberia!
\ w: 415-496-5710 \ h:408-294-6492 \
\_________________________________________________________________________
ahel...@umiami.ir.miami.edu
> I've thought about this issue long and hard and I think the answer I have
> applies to both those parents who have and those who have not used or abused
> drugs.
>
> People have different body chemistries and what is enjoyable to one person
> may be completely unpleasant to another. However, I believe that there is
> some drug that will be pleasant to each person, so pleasant that having once
> experienced the drug, that person will have a problem with craving that
> drug for the rest of his or her life. For some it is alcohol, for others
> barbiturates. Some are perscription drugs, some are legal drugs, and some are
> on the forbidden list. But I don't think that matters as much as what will
> happen if you sample a drug which is the right chemical balance for your
> system.
I know you mean well, but this is so stupid! Are you saying that for each and
every one of us there is some chemical substance somewhere--could be pot, could
be a camel dung/qat mixture from Saudi Arabia--that will turn each and every
one of us into something out of a Hogarth lithograph??? (As in lying in the
middle of the street drooling) Or that if we cannot get this substance we will
spend the rest of our lives twitching at our desks, snapping pencils and
sweating???
Sorry, but I'd have to give this JLT-theory the big *BRRZZZ* [WRONG!]
Ann Helmers
ahel...@umiami.ir.miami.edu
>
> There is some truth in what you are saying but only if the person has an
> addictive personality. I knew someone who had a major problem with coke.
> I heard stories from te first (of several) rehabs she went thru. Basically,
> the patients were strongly encouraged to give up all other drugs (alcohol
> being the biggie) because it is common of addictive personalities to trade
> one drug for another.
>They didnt particarly address tabacco, so that by the
> end of the rehab most of the people were practically chain smokers. I have
> heard that most AA meetings are one big cloud of smoke.
I can vouch for smoking among recovering addicts/alcoholics. When one of my
sisters was doing inpatient rehab, it was truly astonishing to notice that
EVERY patient was an intense smoker. And I remember going to her
one-year-of-sobriety AA meeting...I was a couple of months pregnant, the
meeting was held in one of those windowless meeting halls and I didn't make it
longer than a few minutes. I was worried the fetus wasn't getting any
oxygen--I know *I* sure wasn't!
My husband has always wondered how come smoking is considered acceptable for a
recovering addict/alcoholic when they go the extreme of refusing to take an
aspirin, or to have novacaine for a tooth filling (true cases). But meanwhile
they are puffing away like chimneys.
Ann Helmers
well, it started out as relevant to the discussion...
civ...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
> In article <1993Jan20...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>, civ...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz writes...
>>>> >> >Currently schools are teaching that ALL drug use is bad and that alcohol
>>>> >> >is a drug hence social drinking parents do the dance. How do we deal
>>>> >> >with the fact that in many cases recreational use of some drugs isnt all
>>>> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> >> >that bad either?
>>
>>It could be beneficial in fact. See this study from the "National Bureau of
>>Economic Research.
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>From the "New Internationalist" December 1992
>>
>> Drug Users defy Stereotype
>>
>>a long-term study conducted by the National Bureau of Economic Research in
>>New York. The drug-use habits of 5000 young adults were compared across the
>>US. The survey was first done in 1984 and repeated in 1989 to the same group
>>of people, with an average age of 24 and then 27. It shows drug users do not
>>drop out of the workforce quicker than drug-free employees. In fact they are
>>often the most inquisitive and talented people at the workplace.
>> (from the Pacific News Service,August 1992
>
>
> This sounds like the most incredible bull to me. First of all, most
> drug use is illegal and you are going to have a hard time finding
> people who will tell you the truth about theirs, especially at work.
This is a major problem with any study of illicit drug use. If drug use
is underestimated because of the reticence of people to tell the truth
then this makes the conclusion of the research cited above even stronger.
> I am acquainted with many people in their 30's & 40's who use pot.
> They have little or no drive and initiative.
I am acquainted with quite few people in their 30's 40's 50's who use pot.
They are very successful and have exceptional drive and initiative, though
all tend to be a bit flamboyant.
This does not a study make, and neither does your experience.
My feeling is that the pot doesn't cause any of these things - it may be used
by those with no drive or initiative, as a quick way of getting a purpose,
or by those with lots of initiative, to satisfy their curiosity or whatever.
David Kassover
>In article <1993Jan22.0...@locus.com>, ju...@locus.com (Judy Tryer) writes:
>> People have different body chemistries and what is enjoyable to one person
>> may be completely unpleasant to another. However, I believe that there is
>> some drug that will be pleasant to each person, so pleasant that having once
>> experienced the drug, that person will have a problem with craving that
>> drug for the rest of his or her life.
>I know you mean well, but this is so stupid! Are you saying that for each and
>every one of us there is some chemical substance somewhere--could be pot, could
>be a camel dung/qat mixture from Saudi Arabia--that will turn each and every
>one of us into something out of a Hogarth lithograph??? (As in lying in the
>middle of the street drooling) Or that if we cannot get this substance we will
>spend the rest of our lives twitching at our desks, snapping pencils and
>sweating???
>
>Sorry, but I'd have to give this JLT-theory the big *BRRZZZ* [WRONG!]
Don't think so. Orwell (_1984_) and Burgess (_A Clockwork
Orange_) believed so, to the extent of writing about the dangers
of allowing a government to come to this realization and
acheiving the means to put it into practice. I seem to recall
that a large part of their writing was based on sound
psychological research.
The stimulus need not be strictly external chemical; If I recall
properly, Winston Smith was controlled because of a deepseated
irrational fear of rats. Burgess's hero, who's name I cannot
recall was conditioned into "acceptable" behavior by playing on
his love of classical music.
Pick any random 5 people reading this newsgroup, and
disconnect them from netnews; see what kind of behavior changes
you get...
--
David Kassover "Proper technique helps protect you against
uupsi!khazad!kassover sharp weapons and dull judges."
kass...@aule-tek.com F. Collins
kass...@ra.crd.ge.com
David Kassover
...
>
>I am acquainted with many people in their 30's & 40's who use pot.
>They have little or no drive and initiative. When I saw the recent
>TV commercial where two grown men are smoking (pot) at home, mom comes
>home and asks if they've looked for a job, and they state as they're
>frantically fanning smoke out the window, "I've been smoking for
>years and nothings ever happened to me!" I could have sworn they'd
>interviewed some of the people I know.
Doesn't sound any different from those who use alcohol.
As near as I can tell, beer and marijuana are equivalent. Except
that most of the potheads I know are horrified at the idea of
driving or operating power equipment under the influence.
Reactions to alcohol and THC vary with the individual user. But
I've never found someone who became aggressive from THC, even
those who combined their use with caffiene or other forms of
stimulants.
I know a man who tried cocaine a couple of times. He said it was
the only thing that took the pain out of his knees without
dulling his senses. Such freedom could certainly result in
heightened productivity, creative or otherwise. This person has
never acheived the finances necessary to keep him in supply, so
he limps along with things like salicylates, acetaminophen and
such.
Drugs? Of course he does drugs. If he didn't, he'd be on the
welfare rolls.
Carol Conell
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon
One interesting
issue you raise that I too am trying to wrestle with concerns
the fact that, being realistic, most kids--including the kids those of
us who are now parents were--do lots of dangerous stuff, and most
of the time nothing bad comes out of it but occasionally it wrecks your
life. (Driving with intoxicated people or even
just people who aren't good drivers is a clear example,
that I was guilty of myriads of times.)
We continue doing this somewhat even in adulthood, but in
general most of us find ourselves more prepared to look for
risks and avoid them as we get older.
What I want to say to my kids, among other things,
about driving with intoxicated drivers, drugs, smoking and a lot
of things is that most people most of the time will do it with
impunity, so that probabilistically maybe the payoff makes sense
depending on how much you enjoy the results (for me and I suspect
many kids the intoxicated driver problem is associated with
not wanting to appear uncool) but as a parent I can't stand
the thought of their doing it because in the 1/100,1/1000 or even
1/1000,000 chance that the resulting tragedy hits them, they're
my only kids and they're gone permanently. Incidentally, with
drugs I'm much less worried about addiction than about accidents
while intoxicated, overdoses etc.
One problem is that what I want to say to my kids seems
pretty similar to what I remember my parents saying to me
and it didn't effectively prevent my engaging in risky behavior.
Consequently, I suspect my advice won't work either--or not
as well as my parental heart wants.
Do people who didn't drive with intoxicated drivers, etc,
remember what your parents said--if anything, or why you didn't.
Maybe that would help those of us who want are kids to be safer than we
were. A guilt ridden and hence fearful parent.
--
Carol Conell; Sociology; Reed College; Portland, OR 97202 (503) 771-1112
Donn Pedro
>
>kass...@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) writes:
>> elam...@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Eber Lambert) writes:
>...
>> >is a drug hence social drinking parents do the dance. How do we deal
>> >with the fact that in many cases recreational use of some drugs isnt all
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ^^^^^^^^
>
>about what happens if you get arrested for it. Think about what
>happens if your _kid_ gets arrested for it.
I love it when a buzzer goes off without preperation.
His point was that the actual act, in many cases, wasn't bad.
And in many cases he is right.
Here -- this may explain a little.
Oral sex _is_ bad! Think about what happens if you get arrested
for it.
Things change ...
Donn Pedro ....................a.k.a. do...@brat.wa.com
"You talk the talk. Do you walk the walk?"
There are no ordinary moments.
Elise Wade
>In <1993Jan15.1...@cs.ucla.edu>, ge...@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Geoffrey Kuenning) wrote:
>#
># In article <1993Jan15....@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> na...@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (nancy.l.colucci) writes:
>#
># > And that's too damn bad, as well. If those same parents would be
># > open and honest with their kids and tell them some of the horror
># > stories and experiences they may have had while stoned or tripping
># > or whatever, or while watching others do same, their kids might not
># > be as eager to experiment.
>#
># Horror stories? You're joking, right? If drugs reliably produced
># horrible experiences, people wouldn't use them. And trying to keep
># kids from experimenting, while otherwise denying the parameters of the
># responsible use of intoxicants, is a good way to get them to hide
># their experimentation and go way off the deep end.
>
> Ever noticed that drugs go in and out of fashion? It's because kids
> don't believe second-hand wisdom. One generation does a fairly
Well, then perhaps you could talk about how tobacco fits into the
picture. Its a highly addicting drug (nicotine) which has always
been legal. As the evidence has accumulated (hard evidence) that
it is really a very hazardous thing to do, more and more folks
have quit. Its not socially gamorous anymore, in fact, its not
really socially acceptable in most circles. The use pattern
doesn't follow the generational pattern. Interesting, no?
Elise.
Reid Kneeland
>In article <C12DB...@austin.ibm.com> jlpi...@austin.ibm.com writes:
>>BZZZZT! Sorry Eber! Recreational use of drugs _is_ bad! Think
>>about what happens if you get arrested for it. Think about what
>>happens if your _kid_ gets arrested for it.
>Oral sex _is_ bad! Think about what happens if you get arrested
>for it.
>
>Things change ...
Not much, though. It was only four or five years ago that the
US Supreme Court upheld the conviction of a gay man by the state of
Georgia for the crime of fellatio. The law under which he was
prosecuted does not specify the genders of the perpetrators; it wasn't
an anti-gay law, it was an anti oral-sex law, and our highest court
said it was OK for states to jail people for doing that.
=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
re...@tti.com
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...
Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
Lynn Gazis
>Nancy just remembers not only one or two of her own, but also what she
>and I still know where they play today if I wanted to find them. But the
>certain substances that can cost me my life. I see no problem with sharing
>that with my son should he ask, thank you very much Laura Floom.
>
But it does apply to us. Like you, we used drugs when we were younger.
Like you, we want our children to not use them destructively.
I didn't have that experience getting wasted at the concert and needing
to be taken home by friends, because I smoked pot in moderation, with
friends at my dorm. I didn't have that experience getting called on
by my anthropology professor when I was high in class, because I didn't
get high in class (or when I had homework to do, or when I was going to
have to drive, or do anything else which required I still have normal
use of my brain). I didn't have the problem after doing four big lines
of cocaine, because I didn't do four big lines of cocaine. Ever. I
did one small line of cocaine, once, and then I said to myself, that
was sort of fun, but not near worth the price, and never did it
again (though I got offered plenty of free lines by friends who assured
me I just hadn't had enough to appreciate it, and if I tried it a
few more times I would realize how fun it was).
I do, however, have *plenty* of second hand horror stories. Like
the kid I knew since nursery school, my brother's best friend while
we were growing up. Dead, while in college, riding home from a party
with a friend who had been drinking. And my college boy friend, killed
while he was out riding his bike, by some young man who had been
drinking and driving. Or the blind man I read for, blinded in a car
accident - also because he had been drinking. Plus the people I knew
in the street ministry I volunteered for who are now dead of heroine
overdoses, and the various people I knew who lost jobs, flunked out
of school, lost relationships, and ran into various other kinds of
trouble on a variety of recreational drugs. So I am concerned that
if I just relate my own positive experiences with drugs and alcohol,
I don't tell the whole story.
Part of the reason I stayed out of trouble is surely that I followed
certain sensible rules. Don't drink or use and drive. Don't combine
drugs. Don't drink or use when you need to be doing schoolwork. Don't
drink or use when you're depressed, so you aren't tempted to overdo.
These rules worked for me. But I suspect another part of the reason
may be that some people may be biologically predisposed to addiction,
and I wasn't. So maybe in that sense I was just lucky.
What I get from this thread is a variety of things I can honestly
say to my children, to be sure I've fairly presented the negative
side of using drugs. Like Keith Gatling, I get more pleasure out
of positive accomplishments than I ever got out of being high.
I appreciated Paul Marxhausen's remark about the ways in which
time spent getting high can be time lost out from other things (even
for people who don't get into serious trouble). I thought Laura
Floom might have a good point when she mentioned the ways in which
the drug scene had gotten worse since her time. And I certainly
am interested in hearing any ideas on how to encourage my children
to grow up into the kind of teenagers who don't use drugs. Part
of which involves not having them read too much of a green light
from my own experiences (yes, my experience and that of many other
people I know show that it is possible to drink and smoke pot
without getting into trouble, but it is also possible to get into
a great deal of trouble with either one, and I want them to fully
appreciate the risks involved.
Lynn Gazis-Sax
Mary Curtis
Carol asks what other parents of teens did to keep their children from
riding with intoxicated or otherwise dangerous drivers. Here's what
my folks did -
They gave me the car. I drove my friends everywhere. But, I knew
that if I was ever caught with the slightest hint of alcohol on my
breath not only would I never drive the car again, I would not be let
out of the house except for school again.
I'm serious, I knew they were serious, not a single doubt. Before
the term designated driver was popular, that's what I was. I didn't
even taste alcohol at parties. I helped a lot of drunk/sick friends
out in those days and thought boy, this sure is "fun" puking all over
the place, feeling dizzy, passing out.
I had a steady boyfriend in high school who was two years older than
I. I don't remember the talk they gave him or when it was, but he
knew for a fact that they would never let him date me again if he
drank and then drove me around. He believed them and cared enough
about me he wasn't willing to take the chance.
Two comments. This only works if the child, like me, has the utmost
respect for the parents' authority and the knowledge that the
punishment would be followed through. And, yes I did eventually have
some drunks, I was away at college then. I went to school in a
typical small college town (any Univ Wisc River Falls people out
there?) and we could walk to bars and crawl home if necessary. I was
mature enough by college to realize the danger drinking and driving
could create and glad my parents had taught me well.
It's a tough subject and just like with baby problems, what works for
one child/teen won't necessarily work for another. Good luck!
Mary Curtis
Steven King
|> My husband has always wondered how come smoking is considered acceptable for a
|> recovering addict/alcoholic when they go the extreme of refusing to take an
|> aspirin, or to have novacaine for a tooth filling (true cases). But meanwhile
|> they are puffing away like chimneys.
As I understand it (from both recovering drug addicts and alchoholics),
the people running the programs feel that the recoveree should NOT give up
all vices simultaneously. The theory is that quitting everything cold turkey
will lead to an increased chance of failure.
That's the rational. I don't know if it's backed by studies, statistics,
etc.
Steven (s...@strl.labs.tek.com)
"Sometimes if you have a cappuccino and then try again it will work OK."
(Dr. Brian Reid) "Sometimes one cappuccino isn't enough." (Marcus Ranum)
"A double vanilla latte always works." (Me)
Dorothy Neville
Let's see if I can recap some of the arguments of this thread. First
someone (Laura?) said that she had a great time doing drugs, and
wonders how she can tell her child about that and also keep them from
doing drugs. Then Nancy said to talk about the bad experiences as
well, and tells of a couple of her own, and some stories of friends
who had some bad times with drugs. Then someone flamed Nancy and said
if she had more than one bad experience then she is stupid and no one
should listen to her. And a whole host of folks reiterated that drugs
were all fun for them, no problems. (then why are you trying to keep
your kids from having the same fun?)
OK, first a comment to whoever flamed Nancy for being stupid for
having more than one scary experience. All I can say is that if you
use that same attitude with your teenager, you are not going to get
anywhere. They are more likely to pick up on the attitude you
demonstrate by deciding that no one should listen to Nancy, just
because you thought she did something stupid. If I were your teen, I
would use that as an excuse not to listen to you, who of course is
going to do something I think stupid, that's the definition of parent
from a teen perspective.
Teenagers do not have a sense of mortality. I reckon that
the things Nancy (and others -- she is certainly not alone) realise
now were scary and bad times were not considered that risky or
horrible back then. As parents and other people who work with
teenagers, we have to take that into consideration.
Now here's my 2 cents on what to tell kids. (I think that this is in
the same category as being sexually active, so will include that.)
Sex and drugs can be very pleasurable. But both activities can
involve some physical, emotional, legal and financial risk. I am sure
that anyone of us could come up with a fairly objective list of what
those risks are. And one main point I would try to make is that one
of the best things they can do to reduce the risk is to delay
experimenting with either sex or drugs until they are older. Just
being older won't make all the risks go away, but being out of
puberty, adolescence, with the growth spurts and hormone rushes
associated with it might mean that they are better able to make
educated decisions about their bodies and what they want to do with
them and who you want to do it with. Now as I look at what I wrote, I
think I am being hopelessly naive, how many teens want to hear that
they should wait for anything? And how many of them believe that they
are vulnerable to risks, which by their nature are probabilistic? But
at least I think this is an honest approach.
Dorothy Neville
Mike Wheaton
doesn't seem to like many of the "brand-name" baby foods because most of the
meat-veggie combinations contain carrots.
mike
Andy Lowry
One of Lindsay's favorite foods is a Chinese dish called "jook"
(rhymes with "book"). I've seen it called "congee" as well.
Basically, it's rice cooked much longer than it has any business being
cooked. It ends up being sort of the consistency of oatmeal, or it
can be served a bit watered down and it's like a thick soup. You can
add just about anything you can think of to it for flavoring...
ground/shredded/sliced meat, fish, vegetables, ginger, garlic, etc.
For Lindsay, so far we have generally been keeping it pretty bland,
but recently she's started showing an interest in spicier foods so
maybe we'll start adding ginger or something.
Anyway, the general recipe is to just put some rice and about three
times as much water as you would normally use in a saucepan, bring it
to a boil, and then simmmer it until it becomes thick. In the late
stages you can throw in ground meat (uncooked) or vegetables or
whatever, and let it cook during the remaining simmering time. If
you're going to add spices, you may want to add them earlier.
We usually make a batch and then freeze it in an ice-cube tray, then
pop the cubes into a freezer bag and microwave two cubes at mealtime.
One of the nice things for Lindsay is that the jook is sticky enough
that pretty early on she could manage to scoop up a spoonful and get
it to her mouth without dropping it, even though on the way to her
mouth the spoon would be upside-down or vertical or whatever.
--
Andy Lowry, lo...@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7925
IBM Research, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
Paula Burch
I saw a couple of baby recipe books in a book store, but they were
stupid. Lots of complex things that include all sorts of ingredients and
take loads of time to make...if I'm going to cook, I'm going to make
enough for everybody! Plus they contain things I was wanting to hold off
on until the baby's a year old--my list is wheat, all dairy products, egg
whites, nuts, and citrus. (Recommendations for GOOD baby recipe books
hereby requested....)
Will is really into baby mush these days. At least he eats it faster
than he used to, so it's not as frustrating as it was. Here are my
current favorite recipes:
Mushed Peas
------ ----
Microwave half of a 20 ounce bag of frozen peas five mintues on high with
a half cup of water. Stir, and microwave another 4 or 5 minutes. Put in
food processor and puree until there are no more lumps. Put today's peas
in a bowl and put the rest into an ice cube tray. A standard ice cube
tray holds one pint--16 ounces--and, conveniently, usually has 16 cubes
in it. Cool in the refrigerator first before freezing. I microwave two
frozen cubes for 50 seconds, then stir until VERY well mixed and test by
sticking my finger into it. Experiment with your microwave times and the
amount of water you add--you may want to add more in the processor.
Jarred baby peas taste like canned peas, and I'd rather give yummy
frozen peas to my baby. He seems to appreciate them more, and the
almost fluorescent bright green color is fun.
Mushed Sweet Potatoes
------ ----- --------
Peel one huge sweet potato and cut into 1 inch chunks. Microwave five
minutes with half a cup of water. Stick it with a fork. If it's not soft
yet, repeat with additional two minute intervals in the microwave. When
it's soft, mush in the processor and freeze as for the peas.
Mushed Beef
------ ----
Buy one pound of well-trimmed stew beef (I bought "all-natural" stuff
from the health food store); brown a little bit in a non-stick pan, then
add a cup of water and cook gently until soft enough to cut with a wooden
spoon--about two hours. Treat as above, but then be sure to mix with
something cohesive such as brown rice cereal (which I prepare with
mother's milk) or with mushed peas--the meat is a little hard to swallow,
straight. Makes enough for one tray plus a little bowl to keep unfrozen.
Mushed Turkey
------ ------
I microwaved this, but it was less successful. Will will not accept it
unless it's mixed with at least twice as many cubes of peas. I think
dark meat would have been more acceptable, treated as for beef, above, to
break down the connective tissue. The gelatin content would make it
gooey-er and therefore better in the baby's opinion.
Mushed Egg Yolk
------ --- ----
Egg yolk mushes better with a fork when it's boiled before separating
than when you separate it and then microwave it. Will likes it a lot,
mixed with a bit of mother's milk.
Will loves carrots, but I haven't given him any since his nose turned
yellow. I wonder if I was feeding him too much beta-carotene, or if
it was coming from my diet, since I eat a lot of carrots. I still feed him
sweet potatoes, though, as they're his favorite, and he seems to be getting
less yellow. (He's certainly not jaundiced.)
Is anyone else appalled that the baby rice cereal in the grocery stores
is made from refined white rice? You have to go to a health food store
to buy whole grains for babies. Ridiculous.
Paula Burch
pbu...@bcm.tmc.edu
Evan Marshall Manning
nev...@cs.washington.edu (Dorothy Neville) writes:
>Let's see if I can recap some of the arguments of this thread.
Apparently not ;-) The order in which things were said really
matters...
>First
>someone (Laura?) said that she had a great time doing drugs, and
I do not know who, but it was certainly not Laura (my wife, BTW.
She's not on the net today, but of course I have full authority to
speak for her ;-)).
>wonders how she can tell her child about that and also keep them from
>doing drugs. Then Nancy said to talk about the bad experiences as
>well, and tells of a couple of her own, and some stories of friends
She did not say "as well", she wrote as if all drug experiences are
horror stories. In fact she suggested that we share "some of" our
horror stories, implying we all have many!
>who had some bad times with drugs. Then someone flamed Nancy and said
>if she had more than one bad experience then she is stupid and no one
>should listen to her. And a whole host of folks reiterated that drugs
>were all fun for them, no problems.
Backwards! Lots of folks responded to Nancy's suggestion that we
tell our kids horror stories by saying they had no such horror
stories. Of these posts Nancy chose Laura's seemingly at random
(maybe the first to reach her site?) and flamed her, saying that if
she had no horror stories then she had no business posting on this
thread.
*Then* I flamed Nancy, pointing out that by her standard none of us
had any business posting on her thread because to my memory no one
but Nancy has yet come forward with horror stories. (Not that I
have any real doubt that there are one or two more to be found.)
I did say that if she had more than one horror story then she was
perhaps not as smart as she'd like us to think, and here I did cross
the line and I'm sorry. The correct word would really be
"rational", not "smart" and the proper comparison is her level of
rationality as a teenager vs. the level of rationality her scheme
requires of current teenagers. If she did not learn anything from
having bad experiences herself, how can she expect her kids to learn
from being told about them?
>(then why are you trying to keep your kids from having the same fun?)
Well, for starters saying that we had no real horror stories is not
the same thing as saying that we only enjoyed life while tripping!
Beyond that, drugs are more dangerous just now than they were then.
>OK, first a comment to whoever flamed Nancy for being stupid for
>having more than one scary experience. All I can say is that if you
I flamed Nancy for flaming Laura. I'm really quite forgiving of
stupidity when it is not actively nasty.
>use that same attitude with your teenager, you are not going to get
>anywhere. They are more likely to pick up on the attitude you
>demonstrate by deciding that no one should listen to Nancy, just
>because you thought she did something stupid. If I were your teen, I
>would use that as an excuse not to listen to you, who of course is
>going to do something I think stupid, that's the definition of parent
>from a teen perspective.
>Teenagers do not have a sense of mortality. I reckon that
>the things Nancy (and others -- she is certainly not alone) realise
>now were scary and bad times were not considered that risky or
>horrible back then. As parents and other people who work with
>teenagers, we have to take that into consideration.
Also do remember that both drugs and sex were objectively less risky
back then.
>Now here's my 2 cents on what to tell kids. (I think that this is in
>the same category as being sexually active, so will include that.)
>Sex and drugs can be very pleasurable. But both activities can
>involve some physical, emotional, legal and financial risk. I am sure
>that anyone of us could come up with a fairly objective list of what
>those risks are. And one main point I would try to make is that one
>of the best things they can do to reduce the risk is to delay
>experimenting with either sex or drugs until they are older. Just
>being older won't make all the risks go away, but being out of
>puberty, adolescence, with the growth spurts and hormone rushes
>associated with it might mean that they are better able to make
>educated decisions about their bodies and what they want to do with
>them and who you want to do it with. Now as I look at what I wrote, I
>think I am being hopelessly naive, how many teens want to hear that
>they should wait for anything? And how many of them believe that they
>are vulnerable to risks, which by their nature are probabilistic? But
>at least I think this is an honest approach.
Sounds good to me. I especially like mentioning that drugs can be
pleasurable. I think I tried drugs partly just because I knew that
what I was told in school about them couldn't be the whole story
because then nobody would be using them. I was somewhat surprised
to find that drugs are FUN. Perhaps I was not too smart back then
either.
<<<<<<<<<< Evan M. Manning ======= man...@alumni.caltech.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>
Your eyes are weary from staring at the CRT. You feel sleepy. Notice how
restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions
stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
Mark Meyer
> Pick any random 5 people reading this newsgroup, and disconnect them
> from netnews; see what kind of behavior changes you get...
No! NO! NOOOOOOOOOO! :-)
--
Mark Meyer | mme...@dseg.ti.com |
Texas Instruments, Inc., Plano TX +--------------------+
Every day, Jerry Junkins is grateful that I don't speak for TI.
"Chaos - is - not - helpful!"
Judy Tryer
number of times I did things in my life that other people doing exactly the
same things ended up dead. The number was something like 7. It was a lot.
Some of the things ended up being mistakes, other things were just frivolous
and slightly dangerous. Now, one would think that I would want my children
to not make these same mistakes. One would be wrong.
As I hit 40 this year I have discovered that one of my greatest fears is
that now that I'm "older and wiser" I won't have any more adventures. I
will never again do something so stupid I could get killed. While this seems
like a good thing, it really frightens me. I have picked my 65 birthday as
the day I jump out of an airplane with a parachute, but that's just Mickey
Mouse stuff.
I want to encourage my children to take chances, to try the difficult and
perhaps even dangerous. I love adventures and curiosity and exploration.
But I want to teach them to be prepared for the unexpected, to know what
dangers you are trying to avoid, etc. I don't want them paralyzed by fear,
but energized by it. Sex and drugs are just two topics that fit in this
long list. They are big topics right now because our society is so warped,
but there are a lot of other things.
Better a life of reckless danger than of quiet desperation. Better yet is
not so reckless danger, a lot of fun, and some valuable learning experiences.
Grace Sylvan
cooked it very well (perhaps overcooked it) and then thrown it into
the blender and kept adding water until it could be processed.
Then put the glop into ice cube trays, and you're set for quick meals.
Some other veggies to try are squash, zucchini, yams (sweet potatoes),
avocado (don't cook, just use ripe ones), bananna, apple sauce, tofu,
spinach (I actually mixed the tofu and spinach together). I've gotten
rolled barley and rolled oats and quick cooking whole grain rice
cereal (costs less than the instant baby rice cereal) at the health
food store. When Robin didn't like his oatmeal and barley too lumpy, I
put the rolled oats and COLD water planned for cooking into my blender
and let it all whirl around chopping up the oats before I cooked it.
That made the oat lumps much smaller.
You might find that your fussy eater likes cooked fresh carrots -
experiment with it sometime.... It isn't necessary to start infants on
meats, so if your baby doesn't like them, it's not a big deal.
Actually, if your baby doesn't like to eat lots of 'food', it's not
*necessarily* a big deal, so long as you're not limiting their intake of
breastmilk/formula. My daughter primarily breastfed and ate bits of
finger foods when we had meals, and one meal a day of whole grain rice
cereal and applesauce up through her first birthday. Then as a
toddler, she began eating more food and nursing less. My son took to
eating well when he was 7 mo old, and so now at 11 months, he mostly
eats food during the day, and nurses in the morning and night, and
sometimes before his naps during the day. But before 7 months old (I
started offering at 5 months) he was just not interested at all!
Does your 'fussy eater' try and feed himself? Perhaps he'd like some
frozen veggies well cooked and mashed/cut up very small on this tray
intead of babyfood mush? (My daughter was not a mushyfood baby, my son
likes it).
The other handy thing about making cubes (and then storing them frozen
in containers or ziploc freezer bags) is that I can make up
combinations that cater to whatever other foods Robin has gotten in
the last 24 hours - so if we were out and he got lots of carbs but not
enough veggies, I can make a straight veggie mix - if it's late and
night and I want his food to stick to his ribs, I can make a veggie
and grain mix or fruit and grain mix. And if I notice there's a veggie
that he likes less, I can mix it with a couple that he does like and
he'll usually be fine with eating it.
I hope this was helpful!
--
Tigger (Grace Sylvan) Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tig...@satyr.sylvan.com Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
Robin Gregory born 2/28/92
"It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
children become humane and strong."
- Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish