OT: What airlines can and can't do w.r.t. one parent traveling internationally with kids
lizzard woman
too much fun fishing with his buddies.
Anyway, I am making my connection through the unholy O'Hare and the counter
agent calls everyone to check boarding passes and passports. He finds that
I am traveling to Canada with two children who have a different last name as
me although I am clearly identified as the mother on their birth
certificates (complete with raised seal). I correctly state I'm their
mother and we are returning home.
The guy asks me for a letter from "the father" saying is was "okay" for me
to take the children out of the US(!).
I said I was never told I needed such a letter and why wasn't I told I
needed such a letter by the airline (N.B. This is Canada Air, the worst
airline in the world just to orient you. It is no coincidence that they are
in bankruptcy protection.... I hope they dissolve in a painful corporate
death.) The guy tells me... brace yourself... "it's not the airline's
responsibility to tell me I need the letter." I guess I'm supposed to
divine that.
I said he was driving to Minnesota but had a cell phone and restate the fact
that I'm the mother. In the mean time he is making calls to his supervisor
and constantly asking me for a letter from my husband or if he could fax him
a letter stating it was okay for me to take the children out of the US.
Then he asks for a marriage license which I happened to have in my papers (I
still can't believe I had that.) Still not enough. I show him our visas
with the cover letter showing that my husband in fact applied for them and
that we all live in Canada but my husband is still in the States. No go.
I found a business card for my husband with his Canadian work address and
cell phone number and he calls it but gets the answering service (husband
starting early on having too much fun).
Now I'm getting worried that they would not let me board and I would be
trapped at worse-than-hell O'Hare and that I was going to raise my voice.
One of my kids asked me if we would be able to get on the plane and I said I
didn't know. So then the guy says... brace yourself... "I didn't say I
would deny you boarding."
I said nothing. I thought "Well WTF are we discussing this shit for
then?!?!?!!?"
They kept calling him and left a message. My husband called back and said
it was okay. But now I have the guy's name and phone number. His
supervisor is going to get a dissertation from me.
What if I was a widow? Do I have to carry around his death certificate the
rest of my life for international travel?
What if I didn't produce the business card w/ the cell phone number?
Are they allowed to ask me to carry a letter from "the father" giving me
"permission" to travel internationally with my own kids?
Would they have been able to deny me boarding without it?
What if I had a bunch of bogus business cards printed up with the phone
number of my brother who was instructed to say it was okay? How the hell
would they know the difference?
What if I drafted a letter and signed it myself with my husband's name and
produced that? How the hell would they know it wasn't my husband's
signature?
So many questions, such a shit airline.
This is the same airline who bumped us off our return flight this spring
back into Canada although we checked in 6 hours early and were the first to
do so. As far as I could determine from talking with the people, all of the
bumped people were non-Canadians. Hmmmmm.
I hope Canada Air goes under. The sooner the better. Bastardos.
Thanks in advance,
--
sharon, momma to savannah and willow
lizzard woman
here. Lo siento.
sharon
enigma
news:8o3Ic.1000739$Pk3.653891@pd7tw1no:
> I just returned with my kids from the States. My husband
> stayed on to have too much fun fishing with his buddies.
>
> Anyway, I am making my connection through the unholy O'Hare
> and the counter agent calls everyone to check boarding
> passes and passports. He finds that I am traveling to
> Canada with two children who have a different last name as
> me although I am clearly identified as the mother on their
> birth certificates (complete with raised seal). I
> correctly state I'm their mother and we are returning home.
>
> The guy asks me for a letter from "the father" saying is
> was "okay" for me to take the children out of the US(!).
>
> I said I was never told I needed such a letter and why
> wasn't I told I needed such a letter by the airline (N.B.
well, it *isn't* the airlines responsibility to tell you. FWIW,
you would have had as much, if not more, hassle over this if you
were driving back over the border. it has been a policy for at
least 8 years (although it's been more strictly enforced in the
past 5).
the reason they want/need that paperwork is due to the large
number of children that were being taken to Canada/Mexico by
non-custodial parents, who then took the kids to a country where
extradition was near impossible by the custodial parent.
while it probably was very frustrating & annoying, it really
does have a good purpose.
lee
lizzard woman
news:Xns9523522AEC98...@199.125.85.9...
| "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in
(snip)
| > I said I was never told I needed such a letter and why
| > wasn't I told I needed such a letter by the airline (N.B.
|
| well, it *isn't* the airlines responsibility to tell you. FWIW,
| you would have had as much, if not more, hassle over this if you
| were driving back over the border. it has been a policy for at
| least 8 years (although it's been more strictly enforced in the
| past 5).
If this paperwork is as required as a passport, why do they tell you clearly
on the itinerary that you need a passport but fail to tell you that you need
the parental permission? And the passport is far more obvious that the
parental permission. Do they flip a coin to decide which piece of essential
required paperwork they will tell you that you need?
Care to field any of the questions I posed which have the bottom line that
this permission is easily gotten irrespective of the other parent's wishes?
It's not in the same category as a passport and when it's that easy to
thwart, it's a joke waste of time.
--
love,
la mangosteena
cara
>>The guy asks me for a letter from "the father" saying is
>>was "okay" for me to take the children out of the US(!).
>>
>>I said I was never told I needed such a letter and why
>>wasn't I told I needed such a letter by the airline (N.B.
>>
>>
>
> well, it *isn't* the airlines responsibility to tell you. FWIW,
>you would have had as much, if not more, hassle over this if you
>were driving back over the border. it has been a policy for at
>least 8 years (although it's been more strictly enforced in the
>past 5).
> the reason they want/need that paperwork is due to the large
>number of children that were being taken to Canada/Mexico by
>non-custodial parents, who then took the kids to a country where
>extradition was near impossible by the custodial parent.
> while it probably was very frustrating & annoying, it really
>does have a good purpose.
>lee
>
I can see their purpose, however, is the airline accountable or in any
way responsible for commission of a custodial (or non for that matter)
kidnapping? It seems arbitrary to me to be so difficult when she had
ID, birth certificates, etc. That a 'letter' from the father would
clinch the deal...anyone could pen a letter authorizing such travel and
sign it, how would the guy at the desk be any wiser? If the airline is
concerned about liability, passengers (esp. parents traveling with
children) need to have it clearly stated the documentation they'll need
to get on the plane. I would be annoyed!
cara
Rosalie B.
I understand that you are upset, but I don't think you should be upset
with the airline, although the individual gate agent does seem to have
been a prick (if you will pardon my French). The person you should be
angry with is your husband for not thinking that you might need the
authorization and yourself for not getting one from him.
I would think it would be a no-brainer if you were traveling as a solo
parent internationally with children, particularly if they had a
different last name than you have, that you have some kind of
authorization to take them into/out of the country. Have you not ever
heard of some parent kidnapping their child and taking them somewhere
out of the reach of extradition?
I gave my mom an authorization when she took each of my children on a
trip (Australia, East Germany, Red China and Kenya) and she never
needed it, but she had it in case she did. I also gave her a document
to allow her to get medical treatment for them although that isn't
quite the same thing.
grandma Rosalie
lizzard woman
"Rosalie B." <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8mv2f0pcou6do33nu...@4ax.com...
| "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
(snip)
| I would think it would be a no-brainer if you were traveling as a solo
| parent internationally with children, particularly if they had a
| different last name than you have, that you have some kind of
| authorization to take them into/out of the country.
I travelled Calgary-NYC-Calgary last summer with my kids and sans husband
and nobody asked for a letter. But I'll have one next month when we go to
NYC again.
| Have you not ever
| heard of some parent kidnapping their child and taking them somewhere
| out of the reach of extradition?
Of course I've heard of it. But unless the requirement is a notarized
letter, the present paperwork amounts to little more than screwing around.
I could draft and sign the letter myself and they wold never know the
difference. They could have unwittingly been getting permission over the
phone from my brother instead of my husband. Moreover, I'm not convinced
that they only bother women with different last name's from teh children.
If that's the case, it's totally screwy, irrespective of the nobility of
their purpose.
sharon
Rosalie B.
>
>"Rosalie B." <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:8mv2f0pcou6do33nu...@4ax.com...
>| "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>(snip)
>
>| I would think it would be a no-brainer if you were traveling as a solo
>| parent internationally with children, particularly if they had a
>| different last name than you have, that you have some kind of
>| authorization to take them into/out of the country.
>
>I travelled Calgary-NYC-Calgary last summer with my kids and sans husband
>and nobody asked for a letter. But I'll have one next month when we go to
>NYC again.
Nine times out of 10 you won't need it.
>
>| Have you not ever
>| heard of some parent kidnapping their child and taking them somewhere
>| out of the reach of extradition?
>
>Of course I've heard of it. But unless the requirement is a notarized
>letter, the present paperwork amounts to little more than screwing around.
That's what I gave my mom (starting in 1974), and that's what I'd get
from your husband.
>I could draft and sign the letter myself and they wold never know the
>difference. They could have unwittingly been getting permission over the
>phone from my brother instead of my husband. Moreover, I'm not convinced
>that they only bother women with different last name's from teh children.
>If that's the case, it's totally screwy, irrespective of the nobility of
>their purpose.
It's just like a lot of that kind of stuff - good intentions - crappy
implementation.
grandma Rosalie
ChocolateTruffles
> I hope Canada Air goes under. The sooner the better. Bastardos.
LOL! Welcome to monopolies. ;-) I agree about Air Canada.
--
Brigitte aa #2145
http://ca.geocities.com/bironmonger/
Please excuse the quality. It is under construction and I am still
learning. :-)
"To repeat what others have said, requires education; to challenge it,
requires brains."
~ Mary Pettibone Poole
Rosenugga
DD and myself) tried to travel to Canada to look at some land. I felt that the
real estate agent should have mentioned that we might need a birth certificate
for our daughter. They accepted our licenses as proof of ID for us but all we
had was her SS card. We had a very anxious hour while the Canada side decided
they wouldn't let us in and then had the same trouble coming through the US
side even though we never left the country. It was my first time traveling
outside the country and DH had always been in the military when he had traveled
internationally. Needless to say it did not leave us with a vary favorable
impression of Canadaian border guards. For a long time DD would say Canada
doesn't like me, they wouldn't let me in.
Rose
Mamma to Caity Feb 13 1999 ( Daddy's best birthday present)
eggs
"lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:czfIc.1005016$Pk3.418657@pd7tw1no...
>
> "Rosalie B." <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:8mv2f0pcou6do33nu...@4ax.com...
> | "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> (snip)
> | Have you not ever
> | heard of some parent kidnapping their child and taking them
somewhere
> | out of the reach of extradition?
>
> Of course I've heard of it. But unless the requirement is a notarized
> letter, the present paperwork amounts to little more than screwing
around.
> I could draft and sign the letter myself and they wold never know the
> difference. They could have unwittingly been getting permission over
the
> phone from my brother instead of my husband. Moreover, I'm not
convinced
> that they only bother women with different last name's from teh
children.
> If that's the case, it's totally screwy, irrespective of the nobility
of
> their purpose.
>
> sharon
>
I have the same last name as my husband and kids and I always carry a
'permission' note from my husband when I travel internationally with the
kids. I don't know how often it would be requested, because I always
just slap it on the counter with the passports when I check in. I don't
think it's screwy, or even an imposition it's an accepted norm. A quick
check at the Canadian passport office before you left would have told
you that you needed one of these
http://www.ppt.gc.ca/travel_tips/with_child_e.asp
I can see why you might find it an imposition, as most people who have a
serious concern about a spouse absconding internationally with their
kids have the kids' passports red flagged with immigration in whatever
country they live in, so even a forged note wouldn't be much use.
Forging permission in the ways that you suggest would be a criminal
offence and, although many countries will not extradite over child
custody issues, this criminal offense could then be used as the basis of
extradition. It's just another, sharper hook to catch the absconders
on.
Try to think of it this way - the small imposition placed upon you could
help a parent find their their kidnapped child. Surely worth the
imposition?
eggs.
Denise Anderson
> I just returned with my kids from the States. My husband stayed on to
have
> too much fun fishing with his buddies.
>
> Anyway, I am making my connection through the unholy O'Hare and the
counter
> agent calls everyone to check boarding passes and passports. He finds
that
> I am traveling to Canada with two children who have a different last name
as
> me although I am clearly identified as the mother on their birth
> certificates (complete with raised seal). I correctly state I'm their
> mother and we are returning home.
I don't know if its an airline thing, so much as a Canadian thing right now.
We're preparing for a trip with my husband's ship to Victoria next weekend.
Sometime in the last week, Canadian officials decided to tell the US Navy
officials that all the children who will be travelling with one parent for
the cruise on the ship (and that's all of them, since one parent is clearly
ON the ship) need to have a birth certificate and a special power of
attorney to travel across the border. Needless to say, DSD won't be able to
make the trip because while I have a POA and a military ID card, I don't
have a special (not just a general) POA or her birth certificate stating I
am her mom, because well.. she's my SD darn it.
Denise
eggs
"cara" <nos...@earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:pefIc.13541$oD3....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> enigma wrote:
>
> >>The guy asks me for a letter from "the father" saying is
> >>was "okay" for me to take the children out of the US(!).
> >>
> I can see their purpose, however, is the airline accountable or in any
> way responsible for commission of a custodial (or non for that matter)
> kidnapping? It seems arbitrary to me to be so difficult when she had
> ID, birth certificates, etc. That a 'letter' from the father would
> clinch the deal...anyone could pen a letter authorizing such travel
and
> sign it, how would the guy at the desk be any wiser? If the airline
is
> concerned about liability, passengers (esp. parents traveling with
> children) need to have it clearly stated the documentation they'll
need
> to get on the plane. I would be annoyed!
>
> cara
>
Just about every 'before you travel' government website let's you know
that you may need one of these. It was even printed on my kids'
passport application forms that the passport alone would not necessarily
enable my kids to travel with only one parent. The fact that it would
be so 'easy' to committ the crime of forgery doesn't mean that most
people would do it. I mean, it's pretty easy to put a ski mask on and
rob a liquor store too, but most of us wouldn't even consider doing it!
I don't think the legal requirement has anything to do with the
establishment of airline liability, it has to do with establishing the
history of criminal behaviour that is needed to extradite child
kidnappers.
eggs.
eggs
"ChocolateTruffles" <ChocolateTruf...@bonbon.net> wrote in
message news:oZhIc.73695$WB5.54646@pd7tw2no...
> lizzard woman wrote:
>
> > I hope Canada Air goes under. The sooner the better. Bastardos.
>
> LOL! Welcome to monopolies. ;-) I agree about Air Canada.
>
> --
I agree that Air Canada are bastards. I'd rather walk!
Where they really dropped the ball was in letting the OP board on the
outbound leg of travel without letting her know she was missing this
document. The OP could have just as easily been kidnapping the kids on
the outbound trip as the inbound one. There wouldn't be so much trouble
enforcing these requirements if the airlines would actually enforce them
in a uniform manner.
eggs.
enigma
news:k2lIc.90310$sj4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
except her husband was with her on the outbound leg, so it
wasn't an issue.
i haven't travelled internationally with Boo yet, but i knew
about needing the letter if traveling with kids sans
spouse/other parent. i kinda felt it was one of those "known"
travelling paperwork things: passport, ID, birth certificates
for the kids & acknoledgement/permission letter from other
parent.<shrug>
lee
me
>
> I don't know if its an airline thing, so much as a Canadian thing right now.
> We're preparing for a trip with my husband's ship to Victoria next weekend.
> Sometime in the last week, Canadian officials decided to tell the US Navy
> officials that all the children who will be travelling with one parent for
> the cruise on the ship (and that's all of them, since one parent is clearly
> ON the ship) need to have a birth certificate and a special power of
> attorney to travel across the border. Needless to say, DSD won't be able to
> make the trip because while I have a POA and a military ID card, I don't
> have a special (not just a general) POA or her birth certificate stating I
> am her mom, because well.. she's my SD darn it.
Actually, the same thing happens when going from Canada to the US. I fly
out of Buffalo occasionally as it is the easiest airport to use for flying
to some of the US destinations. DH has to leave the kids at Grandma's on
the way to the border to go accross to pick me up at the airport as he
can't get across with the kids without a notarized note from me.
My cousin (before she started carrying a note from her DH) who is a
Canadian citizen married to a US citizen and living in the US had the
worst border crossing trying to get back to the US with her kids after
visiting their Canadian grandparents. Eventually her DH had to drive to
the border to get them!
Mexico, AFAIK has always been really picky - my first ever trip to a
lawyer was to get a notorized note from my father to travel there with a
church group when I was a teen.
lizzard woman
| "eggs" <segg...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in
| news:k2lIc.90310$sj4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
|
||
|| "ChocolateTruffles"
|| <ChocolateTruf...@bonbon.net> wrote in message
|| news:oZhIc.73695$WB5.54646@pd7tw2no...
||| lizzard woman wrote:
|||
|||| I hope Canada Air goes under. The sooner the better.
|||| Bastardos.
|||
||| LOL! Welcome to monopolies. ;-) I agree about Air
||| Canada.
|||
||| --
||
|| I agree that Air Canada are bastards. I'd rather walk!
||
|| Where they really dropped the ball was in letting the OP
|| board on the outbound leg of travel without letting her
|| know she was missing this document. The OP could have just
|| as easily been kidnapping the kids on the outbound trip as
|| the inbound one. There wouldn't be so much trouble
|| enforcing these requirements if the airlines would actually
|| enforce them in a uniform manner.
|
| except her husband was with her on the outbound leg, so it
| wasn't an issue.
Correct.
| i haven't travelled internationally with Boo yet, but i knew
| about needing the letter if traveling with kids sans
| spouse/other parent. i kinda felt it was one of those "known"
| travelling paperwork things: passport, ID, birth certificates
| for the kids & acknoledgement/permission letter from other
| parent.<shrug>
I'm still not clear on how that wold be "known" to me.
They clearly printed on the itinerary that a passport would be required.
Why wouldn't they also state that a permission letter is required for the
return flight?
I travelled to NYC from Canada and back last August with just my girls and
nobody asked me for a letter.
How long has this been a "known" for you?
sharon
Iuil
I'm reading all these replies and I can fully understand the reasoning
behind necessity for such a letter.
Yet, I travelled from Ireland to England last week with my 2 year old DD.
Her surname is partially different to mine (she has both my and DH's
surnames). I carried my passport and my driving license, both of which are
acceptable ID for an Irish citizen entering the UK (officially no ID is
necessary but the airlines say that you must have one or the other). DD
does not yet have a passport nor is she on mine. I carried her birth
certificate with me, in case it was needed.
On neither leg of the journey was I asked to even produce her birth cert nor
any other proof that she was the person in whose name the ticket was issued
let alone proof that I had the necessary permission from DH to bring her to
another jurisdiction! In Dublin, the check-in clerk took it when I offered
it, in Birmingham it was waved away. I was totally amazed at the laissez
faire attitude.
Jean
dragonlady
enigma <eni...@empire.net> wrote:
I used to drive from Massachusetts to Minnesota and back each year,
driving through Ontario. I traveled with my kids, without my partner.
I never carried ANY paperwork -- just my own driver's license. It was
never a problem. (This was not a bazillion years ago -- but the last
time was about 11 years ago.)
So I didn't realize that things had changed -- my kids are old enough
now so it's a non-issue (my babies are now 18), but if I'd been asked by
someone with younger children, it wouldn't have occurred to me to
suggest they have any special paperwork for travelling to and from
Canada.
meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
dragonlady
"eggs" <segg...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
To be clear, when I was travelling through Canada, NONE of us had
passports -- not me, not my mom (who sometimes drove with us) and
certainly not my kids. I'd never had a passport until last year, when
we travelled to Mexico for my brother's wedding. So there was no
passport application to refer to.
We were always by car. (Though I've also been to Canada by canoe; no
checkpoints at all there...)
Donna Metler
parent (or a parent with a different last name) when entering Canada from
the US a few years back-it was on the list of required documentation. I also
believe it was on the list required for the cruise to Mexico.
Rupa Bose
>
> I would think it would be a no-brainer if you were traveling as a solo
> parent internationally with children, particularly if they had a
> different last name than you have, that you have some kind of
> authorization to take them into/out of the country. Have you not ever
> heard of some parent kidnapping their child and taking them somewhere
> out of the reach of extradition?
I don't get why it would be a no brainer.
Our children don't have my name, or their dad's. We've travelled all
over the world with them (including entering and leaving the US many
times), individually. The kids have travelled on their own, as
unaccompanied minors. Never once, in any country, has anyone asked
about authorization from their parent/s. Until I read this thread, it
would not have occurred to me. And we've been travelling for nearly 20
years.
The only place I've heard of permission requirements is some countries
in the Middle East, where the father is the children's natural
guardian, and a mother needs permission to take them overseas. In some
countries, even the mother needs her husband's permission to travel.
This is the first time I've heard of it in the US.
Rupa
lizzard woman
| I don't get why it would be a no brainer.
|
| Our children don't have my name, or their dad's. We've travelled all
| over the world with them (including entering and leaving the US many
| times), individually. The kids have travelled on their own, as
| unaccompanied minors. Never once, in any country, has anyone asked
| about authorization from their parent/s. Until I read this thread, it
| would not have occurred to me. And we've been travelling for nearly 20
| years.
|
| The only place I've heard of permission requirements is some countries
| in the Middle East, where the father is the children's natural
| guardian, and a mother needs permission to take them overseas. In some
| countries, even the mother needs her husband's permission to travel.
| This is the first time I've heard of it in the US.
I agree that these people who label this a "known", a "no-brainer", etc.
seem to have a line to the bureaucracy that I don't.
As I've stated at least a few times, I traveled with my kids btw Canada and
the US only last summer and wasn't asked for a letter on either the
departure or the return.
Perhaps they spun up a lot of bureaucary in the last 11 months.
sharon
ChocolateTruffles
> A quick
> check at the Canadian passport office before you left would have told
> you that you needed one of these
> http://www.ppt.gc.ca/travel_tips/with_child_e.asp
Ah, but she is an Amercian expat.
Rosalie B.
That's why many of you can give all kinds of examples of having
traveled before and not needing this documentation.
It doesn't make any difference.
It's completely irrelevant whether you traveled before and haven't
needed it or not because it CAN be required and obviously sometimes it
IS required. And I think anyone who travels internationally with a
child if they aren't with both parents should have this documentation.
SOMEONE should have thought about it. It's NOT a new thing. It has
NOT changed. I was making a notarized statement for my mom in 1975.
She never needed it, but she had it.
And I don't particularly agree that the airline would be responsible
for telling the traveler, especially as they didn't need it on the
outbound trip because the dad was with them. That's where they
usually catch these things - before you leave. Because if the
traveler gets to a country and the country won't let him in, the
airline is going to have to fly him home without getting any
compensation for it, and they don't like to have to do that.
People have asked on various newsgroups about this and the answer has
always been - get some documentation. I don't remember whether it has
ever been asked here, but I tend to think it has, and it has certainly
been asked in the rec.travel groups.
I personally think that someone (maybe Sharon) irritated the gate
agent and he got back at her this passive aggressive way just because
he could. It was more fun for him because he got a rise out of her.
dragonlady <meh...@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote:
>In article <Xns9523D427C87E...@199.125.85.9>,
> enigma <eni...@empire.net> wrote:
>
>> "eggs" <segg...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in
>> news:k2lIc.90310$sj4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
>>
>> > "ChocolateTruffles"
>> > <ChocolateTruf...@bonbon.net> wrote in message
>> > news:oZhIc.73695$WB5.54646@pd7tw2no...
>> >> lizzard woman wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I hope Canada Air goes under. The sooner the better.
>> >> > Bastardos.
>> >>
>> >> LOL! Welcome to monopolies. ;-) I agree about Air
>> >> Canada.
>> >>
grandma Rosalie
Lil Nicky's Mom
on travelling by air anywhere with my son soon, we are planning on driving
down to the States next weekend with just me, my son, my mom and my
brothers. Is it the same kind of hassle if we're crossing the border by car?
Thanks in advance,
Bessie
"lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:8o3Ic.1000739$Pk3.653891@pd7tw1no...
Buzzy Bee
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
> passport, ID, birth certificates
>for the kids & acknoledgement/permission letter from other
>parent.<shrug>
Why on earth do you need the kids' birth certificates. I've travelled
for years and no one has ever asked me for my birth certificate
(though I've once been asked for a marriage certificate to enable me
to share a room with my then fiance, in Japan). I just carry
passports and thats that (I also have my drivers license as I'm
usually planning on driving). In fact right now I have no idea where
my birth certificate even is, as its 5 years since I last needed it
(to get my marriage license). Must apply for a duplicate I guess...
Megan
--
Seoras David Montgomery, 7 May 2003, 17 hours: sunrise to sunset (homebirth)
To e-mail use: megan at farr-montgomery dot com
Buzzy Bee
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>any other proof that she was the person in whose name the ticket was issued
>let alone proof that I had the necessary permission from DH to bring her to
>another jurisdiction! In Dublin, the check-in clerk took it when I offered
>it, in Birmingham it was waved away. I was totally amazed at the laissez
>faire attitude.
I've always been amazed at how lax that particular border is though.
It makes a joke of Briton's objections to Shengen really, since really
it operates much like a Shengen border would. I've yet to be asked
for *any* ID on that trip, no matter how I was travelling, either by
airline/ferry operator or by immigration (who I've never even seen).
At EMA, the Dublin flight came into the domestic portion of the
terminal, so there were no facilities for either immigration or
customs at all (that was the time we were home 90 minutes after we
left the coffee shop at Dublin airport, despite a 40 minute drive back
from the airport).
enigma
> I travelled to NYC from Canada and back last August with
> just my girls and nobody asked me for a letter.
>
> How long has this been a "known" for you?
hmm, since before Boo was born, so slightly longer than 4
years. i don't know if it's because i live in a border state
or i saw it discussed somewhere, but i filed away in the
memory that taking a child over the border requires a
noterized letter from the absent parent (or parents, if it's
another relative traveling with the kids). i do remember
wondering what if one is a single parent...
as with anything regarding the border though, i think the
amount of hassle you get depends almost entirely on the
attitude of the person you're stuck dealing with. if they
happen to be a jerk or having a bad day, they will start
looking for the pickiest things & if they're in a good mood
you can sail right by just waving a driver's license...
lee
enigma
news:mui4f0dom3b63mu37...@4ax.com:
> On 12 Jul 2004 00:51:21 GMT, enigma <eni...@empire.net>
> wrote:
> but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as
> usual!
>> passport, ID, birth certificates
>>for the kids & acknoledgement/permission letter from other
>>parent.<shrug>
>
> Why on earth do you need the kids' birth certificates.
> I've travelled for years and no one has ever asked me for
> my birth certificate (though I've once been asked for a
> marriage certificate to enable me to share a room with my
> then fiance, in Japan). I just carry passports and thats
> that (I also have my drivers license as I'm usually
> planning on driving). In fact right now I have no idea
> where my birth certificate even is, as its 5 years since I
> last needed it (to get my marriage license). Must apply
> for a duplicate I guess...
the kid's birth certificates are needed if they don't have
passports yet. americans don't need passports to travel to
canada or mexaco (yet... although they may need the passports
to get back into the US), so it's pretty common to go to
either border country with the kids & no passports, just
drivers license or state issued picture ID for the adults &
birth certificates for the kids. no big deal if both parents
go &/or the border guard you get isn't being a jerk.
i've been told that *flying* from Canada back into the US is
not going to happen if you don't have a passport now, even if
you don't need it to get *into* Canada. apparently driving
isn't quite as big a problem(probably because there are still
plenty of unmanned crossing points).
lee
enigma
news:JErIc.77165$P7.48093@pd7tw3no:
> After reading this posting, I'm kind of worried. Although
> I'm not planning on travelling by air anywhere with my son
> soon, we are planning on driving down to the States next
> weekend with just me, my son, my mom and my brothers. Is it
> the same kind of hassle if we're crossing the border by
> car?
it can be. if at all possible take along a notarized note
from the child's father and the child's birth certificate. if
you aren't sure what you need to take, i'm sure Canada has a
website somewhere listing paperwork necessary. i'd also
specificly ask the border patrol what they will be looking for
on your return before i left the country.
i've had far less border problems driving than flying though.
lee
Hillary Israeli
lizzard woman <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
*agent calls everyone to check boarding passes and passports. He finds that
*I am traveling to Canada with two children who have a different last name as
*me although I am clearly identified as the mother on their birth
*certificates (complete with raised seal). I correctly state I'm their
*mother and we are returning home.
*The guy asks me for a letter from "the father" saying is was "okay" for me
*to take the children out of the US(!).
*I said I was never told I needed such a letter and why wasn't I told I
*needed such a letter by the airline (N.B. This is Canada Air, the worst
Wow.
My husband, children, and I all share the same last name. However, when I
applied for the kids' passports (his in 2000, hers in 2002 or 2003, I
don't recall) I was told over and over by multiple passport-office staff
people, that if my husband or I should ever be travelling with one or both
of the kids internationally, without the other parent, we would need a
letter from the at-home parent giving permission to take the kids out of
the country, or we would run into problems. This was repeated so many
times - maybe it's just a relatively recent development? I mean, it's
clearly pre-9/11 since my son's passport came before that, but, your kids
are quite a bit older right, so maybe it's just a new thing and somehow
you didn't know...???
*Are they allowed to ask me to carry a letter from "the father" giving me
*"permission" to travel internationally with my own kids?
Honestly I have no real idea, but the people at the US Passport Office in
Norristown, PA seem to think it's a pretty common thing to happen, and
that you could get stuck unable to leave the country without it!
h.
--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net in...@hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)
lizzard woman
news:slrncf4vjj....@manx.misty.com...
(snip)
| My husband, children, and I all share the same last name. However, when I
| applied for the kids' passports (his in 2000, hers in 2002 or 2003, I
| don't recall) I was told over and over by multiple passport-office staff
| people, that if my husband or I should ever be travelling with one or both
| of the kids internationally, without the other parent, we would need a
| letter from the at-home parent giving permission to take the kids out of
| the country, or we would run into problems. This was repeated so many
| times - maybe it's just a relatively recent development? I mean, it's
| clearly pre-9/11 since my son's passport came before that, but, your kids
| are quite a bit older right, so maybe it's just a new thing and somehow
| you didn't know...???
They are nine. It's new to me in the last 11 months. Never heard of the
requirement before two days ago despite traveling alone with my kids
internationally in the recent past.
sharon
LisaBell
It's not that new. Dates back to 2001 IIRC, when it appeared on Dept
of State website as a general instruction for sole parents travelling
with child outside the US - especially to Canada or Mexico. Be
forewarned that if you travel to Mexico you need a *notarized* letter
of permission, or you will be refused entry.
Btw, new rules (this year) regarding issue/renewal of US passports to
minors require that the child appear in person at the passport office.
--Lisa bell
Mom to Gabriella (5.5) and Michaela (4)
Mary Ann Tuli
enigma wrote:
I have only ever heard of this through this newsgroup.
I have travelled many times, both around Europe and trans Atlantic
(UK-US) with my son and without my DH. My passport still has my maiden
name. I have never been asked anything about his relationship to me.
I have only ever needed a passport.
Mary Ann
Rosalie B.
>In <8o3Ic.1000739$Pk3.653891@pd7tw1no>,
>lizzard woman <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>*agent calls everyone to check boarding passes and passports. He finds that
>*I am traveling to Canada with two children who have a different last name as
>*me although I am clearly identified as the mother on their birth
>*certificates (complete with raised seal). I correctly state I'm their
>*mother and we are returning home.
>*The guy asks me for a letter from "the father" saying is was "okay" for me
>*to take the children out of the US(!).
>*I said I was never told I needed such a letter and why wasn't I told I
>*needed such a letter by the airline (N.B. This is Canada Air, the worst
I think part of the problem is that you were from the US with US
passport (I presume) and the children have US birth certificates but
don't have the same name as you (one possible red flag) and you were
taking them from the US without the husband/father. (second possible
red flag) Then you stated to the gate agent that you were "returning
home". But obviously you are from the US and you are going to Canada
which wouldn't be 'home'. So that's another red flag.
>
>Wow.
>
>My husband, children, and I all share the same last name. However, when I
>applied for the kids' passports (his in 2000, hers in 2002 or 2003, I
>don't recall) I was told over and over by multiple passport-office staff
>people, that if my husband or I should ever be travelling with one or both
>of the kids internationally, without the other parent, we would need a
>letter from the at-home parent giving permission to take the kids out of
>the country, or we would run into problems. This was repeated so many
>times - maybe it's just a relatively recent development? I mean, it's
>clearly pre-9/11 since my son's passport came before that, but, your kids
>are quite a bit older right, so maybe it's just a new thing and somehow
>you didn't know...???
>
>*Are they allowed to ask me to carry a letter from "the father" giving me
>*"permission" to travel internationally with my own kids?
>
>Honestly I have no real idea, but the people at the US Passport Office in
>Norristown, PA seem to think it's a pretty common thing to happen, and
>that you could get stuck unable to leave the country without it!
>
>h.
grandma Rosalie
GoofeeGyrl
for years and no one has ever asked me for my birth certificate >>
We flew (within the US) less than two weeks ago. DD#2 is still under one year
and we decided to fly without purchasing a seat for her and taking the chance
that they would have a seat open. (With DD#1, we always purchased her a seat
of her own but this was a trip with a tight budget.) On the flight out, there
was no room, but on the flight back there was, and they asked for her birth
certificate. I did not have it and it was no big deal, but she suggested that
when traveling with an infant, you should always bring their BC with you. In
fact, it was also rcommended by the agent on the phone when my DH made our
reservations. This was on JetBlue--which by the way, I HIGHLY reccommend for
travelling with kids, they have tv screens in every seatback with DirecTV.
Linda
Mommy to Sophie, 3 years
and Eva, 10 months
Hillary Israeli
LisaBell <lisab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
*Btw, new rules (this year) regarding issue/renewal of US passports to
*minors require that the child appear in person at the passport office.
Oh - when we got our son's passport, they said both parents had to be
there at the time of application, OR we could do it with one parent and a
notarized statement from the other parent. FWIW. This was in 2000.
Cathy Kearns
"enigma" <eni...@empire.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95245042BB58...@199.125.85.9...
From the US gov't website (http://travel.state.gov/tips_canada.html):
Due to international concern over child abduction, single parents,
grandparents, or guardians traveling with children often need proof of
custody or notarized letters from the other parent authorizing travel. (This
is in addition to proof of citizenship as explained above.) Any person under
the age of 18 and traveling alone should carry a letter from his/her parent
or guardian authorizing the trip. Travelers without such documentation may
experience delays at the port of entry.
The Canadian gov't website
(http://www.ppt.gc.ca/travel_tips/with_child_e.asp) also has a list of what
is needed to travel with children outside of Canada. Included is the
authorization letter if traveling without both parents.
jenn
> "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:czfIc.1005016$Pk3.418657@pd7tw1no...
>
>>"Rosalie B." <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>>news:8mv2f0pcou6do33nu...@4ax.com...
>>| "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>(snip)
>
>
>>| Have you not ever
>>| heard of some parent kidnapping their child and taking them
>
> somewhere
>
>>| out of the reach of extradition?
>>
>>Of course I've heard of it. But unless the requirement is a notarized
>>letter, the present paperwork amounts to little more than screwing
>
> around.
>
>>I could draft and sign the letter myself and they wold never know the
>>difference. They could have unwittingly been getting permission over
>
> the
>
>>phone from my brother instead of my husband. Moreover, I'm not
>
> convinced
>
>>that they only bother women with different last name's from teh
>
> children.
>
>>If that's the case, it's totally screwy, irrespective of the nobility
>
> of
>
>>their purpose.
>>
>>sharon
>>
>
>
>
> I have the same last name as my husband and kids and I always carry a
> 'permission' note from my husband when I travel internationally with the
> kids. I don't know how often it would be requested, because I always
> just slap it on the counter with the passports when I check in. I don't
> think it's screwy, or even an imposition it's an accepted norm. A quick
> check at the Canadian passport office before you left would have told
> you that you needed one of these
> http://www.ppt.gc.ca/travel_tips/with_child_e.asp
>
> I can see why you might find it an imposition, as most people who have a
> serious concern about a spouse absconding internationally with their
> kids have the kids' passports red flagged with immigration in whatever
> country they live in, so even a forged note wouldn't be much use.
> Forging permission in the ways that you suggest would be a criminal
> offence and, although many countries will not extradite over child
> custody issues, this criminal offense could then be used as the basis of
> extradition. It's just another, sharper hook to catch the absconders
> on.
>
> Try to think of it this way - the small imposition placed upon you could
> help a parent find their their kidnapped child. Surely worth the
> imposition?
>
> eggs.
>
>
actually such letters ARE supposed to be notarized
jenn
why is it someone else's responsibilty for you to know the rules for
travel?
Buzzy Bee
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>the kid's birth certificates are needed if they don't have
>passports yet.
Ah, see its completely alien to me not to ensure everyone in the
family has at least one valid passport at all times. Ours are renewed
6 months before expiry and I got very jittery for the two weeks mine
was away being renewed last time.
For any "need official ID" situation, not just travelling, a passport
is my automatic choice.
Buzzy Bee
<cathy_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>the age of 18 and traveling alone should carry a letter from his/her parent
>or guardian authorizing the trip.
Wow! I travelled quite extensively in Europe and passed through the
US at 16/17 and only ever had my passport with me. Hrmm.
Megan M
LisaBell
Israeli) wrote:
>In <tn95f09rk13bg99hm...@4ax.com>,
>LisaBell <lisab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>*Btw, new rules (this year) regarding issue/renewal of US passports to
>*minors require that the child appear in person at the passport office.
>
>Oh - when we got our son's passport, they said both parents had to be
>there at the time of application, OR we could do it with one parent and a
>notarized statement from the other parent. FWIW. This was in 2000.
I know. This is the way it used to be. Recently friends of ours were
denied a renewal of their daughter's passport until they brought her
down to the consulate. This is a new rule, as of Feb 2004 - which is
why I mention it.
See: http://travel.state.gov/pam_notice.html
" Important Notice
U.S. Department of State
Bureau of Consular Affairs
Passport Services
New
U.S. Passport Requirement
All Minors Must Appear in Person
To enhance the accurate identification of passport applicants and aid
in the prevention of international child
abduction and trafficking, the Department of State’s Bureau of
Consular Affairs has begun requiring the personal
appearance of all minors applying for U.S. passports.
This applies to all regular, official and diplomatic passports for
children under the age of 14, even if the child has
previously been issued a passport. Prior to the introduction of this
requirement, parents were not routinely required
to bring a child under the age of 14 with them when they applied on
the child’s behalf. Now, when applying for a passport
on behalf of a minor under the age of 14, parents are required to have
their child present and submit documentation of
parental relationship and consent, as well as comply with all other
documentation requirements for the issuance of a passport.
The personal appearance requirement for all minors is a further step
towards ensuring the integrity of the passport application
process. This change will help to verify the identity of minor
applicants and aid in the prevention of international child abduction
and trafficking. "
toto
<revers...@yremogtnom-rraf.com> wrote:
>On 12 Jul 2004 11:45:01 GMT, enigma <eni...@empire.net> wrote:
> but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>
>>the kid's birth certificates are needed if they don't have
>>passports yet.
>
>Ah, see its completely alien to me not to ensure everyone in the
>family has at least one valid passport at all times. Ours are renewed
>6 months before expiry and I got very jittery for the two weeks mine
>was away being renewed last time.
>
Well, I never had a passport until I was over 50. We didn't travel
out of the US, except to Canada and no one needed a passport
to travel to Canada in my day.
I would never have even thought about having a passport when I was
growing up. We never had the money to travel very far from home
and didn't really fly anywhere even inside the US.
>For any "need official ID" situation, not just travelling, a passport
>is my automatic choice.
>
Now that I have travelled a few places, I would think a passport is a
good thing, but prior to my 50s, I never had any need for one.
Drivers licences and birth certificates were enough.
>Megan
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
user
In this case at least, I think it's more a matter that the requirement for a letter not only goes beyond what is normally required elsewhere in the world for travel with children, but that enforcement is extremely spotty - so it's awfully easy to be able to do the "wrong" thing for years, before it becomes an issue.
Seriously - how many people know every rule about immigration/customs regulations, beyond the typical passport/visa/declaration requirements?
--
Rich Mulvey
ri...@mulveyfamily.com
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam <IMG SRC="http://www.mulveyfamily.com/photos/trebuchet.jpg" ALIGN="top" ALT="" BORDER="0">
Hillary Israeli
LisaBell <lisab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
*On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:07:48 +0000 (UTC), hil...@hillary.net (Hillary
*Israeli) wrote:
*
*>In <tn95f09rk13bg99hm...@4ax.com>,
*>LisaBell <lisab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
*>
*>*Btw, new rules (this year) regarding issue/renewal of US passports to
*>*minors require that the child appear in person at the passport office.
*>
*>Oh - when we got our son's passport, they said both parents had to be
*>there at the time of application, OR we could do it with one parent and a
*>notarized statement from the other parent. FWIW. This was in 2000.
*
*
*I know. This is the way it used to be. Recently friends of ours were
It's still that way isn't it? I was unaware of them removing that
requirement, anyway. I wouldn't have known either way about the additional
new requirement you mentioned, about having to have the kid with you. I
was, I supposed rather obviously, bringing my son with me to the passport
office because he was a nursing infant at the time - I think he was about
a month old.
I'm spurred to wondering, though - given that the passport offices are
generally only open for a piddling few hours during the week - worse than
banks, at least around here - is this going to be an excused school
absence, or what? Can I write a note to the teacher that says "J couldn't
come to school - we had to go to the passport office?"
:)
Rosalie B.
>On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:21:13 GMT, Buzzy Bee
><revers...@yremogtnom-rraf.com> wrote:
>
>>On 12 Jul 2004 11:45:01 GMT, enigma <eni...@empire.net> wrote:
>> but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>>
>>>the kid's birth certificates are needed if they don't have
>>>passports yet.
>>
>>Ah, see its completely alien to me not to ensure everyone in the
>>family has at least one valid passport at all times. Ours are renewed
>>6 months before expiry and I got very jittery for the two weeks mine
>>was away being renewed last time.
>>
>Well, I never had a passport until I was over 50. We didn't travel
>out of the US, except to Canada and no one needed a passport
>to travel to Canada in my day.
We didn't have much money either as my dad was a college assistant
professor. But we did travel a lot - not to Canada or Mexico, but my
dad worked two jobs and took us all to Europe when I was 12. In order
to save money, my mom and dad put my sister and me on my mom's
passport with her. This is probably a bad idea nowadays, and it
wasn't such a good idea even then.
In any case, in those days children didn't get ss#s right away either.
Since my children traveled with their grandmother at between 6th and
8th grade, they all got passports. I understand why people in the US
might not have them, but I think it is shortsighted if you are going
to travel at all.
>I would never have even thought about having a passport when I was
>growing up. We never had the money to travel very far from home
>and didn't really fly anywhere even inside the US.
>
>>For any "need official ID" situation, not just travelling, a passport
>>is my automatic choice.
>>
>Now that I have travelled a few places, I would think a passport is a
>good thing, but prior to my 50s, I never had any need for one.
>Drivers licences and birth certificates were enough.
>
>>Megan
grandma Rosalie
toto
<gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I understand why people in the US might not have
>them, but I think it is shortsighted if you are going
>to travel at all.
Well, you get them when you plan to travel. Why do
it years ahead of time?
Cathy Kearns
"Buzzy Bee" <revers...@yremogtnom-rraf.com> wrote in message
news:67i5f0d26poadd609...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:14:31 GMT, "Cathy Kearns"
> <cathy_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
> > Any person under
> >the age of 18 and traveling alone should carry a letter from his/her
parent
> >or guardian authorizing the trip.
>
> Wow! I travelled quite extensively in Europe and passed through the
> US at 16/17 and only ever had my passport with me. Hrmm.
Which is right in step with the following line you deleted:
"Travelers without such documentation may experience delays at the port of
entry."
Note they didn't say "will experience delays" they said "may experience
delays." Just because some people won't ever need them does not mean
no one will ever need one. And the website doesn't even tell you which
category you fall into to.
dragonlady
jenn <je...@hmplc.com> wrote:
> lizzard woman wrote:
> > I'm still not clear on how that wold be "known" to me.
> >
> > They clearly printed on the itinerary that a passport would be required.
> > Why wouldn't they also state that a permission letter is required for the
> > return flight?
> >
> > I travelled to NYC from Canada and back last August with just my girls and
> > nobody asked me for a letter.
> >
> > How long has this been a "known" for you?
> >
> > sharon
> >
>
> why is it someone else's responsibilty for you to know the rules for
> travel?
The problem is knowing what questions to ask, and of whom to ask them.
Sometimes, you KNOW you don't know something -- other times you don't
know what you don't know.
When I was driving back and forth between the US and Canada, it never
would have occurred to me that I'd need anything.
So while adding information for anyone flying internationally might not
be REQUIRED -- it would sure be a nice thing for the airlines to have
done!
meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
lizzard woman
Moreover, they apparently pick and choose what to print on the itineraries,
in this case just the (obvious to me) need for a passport. Yet they don't
print anything about the parental letter.
This preserves the right of the counter agents to be gratuitously and
obnoxiously officious.
sharon
Katie
<euni@NO_SPAM_PLEASE.com> wrote:
>After reading this posting, I'm kind of worried. Although I'm not planning
>on travelling by air anywhere with my son soon, we are planning on driving
>down to the States next weekend with just me, my son, my mom and my
>brothers. Is it the same kind of hassle if we're crossing the border by car?
>Thanks in advance,
>Bessie
I live in Vancouver and recently drove across the border to Bellingham
with my DS (8 months old). DH didn't go. I phoned US customs ahead
of time to find out if we needed anything special and I was told to
bring DS's birth certificate and a letter from DH stating that it was
okay to take DS across the border. The border guy on the phone said
that the letter is more important for an infant (since they can't
talk) than for an older child who could, presumably, be questioned
separately from the parent.
We didn't have any trouble at the border, either going or coming. We
did have to park and go into the customs office to show them our ID
and letter but other than that it was no hassle. They just asked a
few questions about why DH wasn't with us, where he was, where he
worked, etc.
Katie
Sara
> I live in Vancouver and recently drove across the border to Bellingham
> with my DS (8 months old). DH didn't go. I phoned US customs ahead
> of time to find out if we needed anything special and I was told to
> bring DS's birth certificate and a letter from DH stating that it was
> okay to take DS across the border.
Did the letter have to be notarized?
--
Sara, accompanied by the toddling barnacle
Phoebe & Allyson
> We flew (within the US) less than two weeks ago. DD#2 is still under
> one year and we decided to fly without purchasing a seat for her and
> taking the chance that they would have a seat open. (With DD#1, we
> always purchased her a seat of her own but this was a trip with a
> tight budget.) On the flight out, there was no room, but on the
> flight back there was, and they asked for her birth certificate.
I was told to bring Caterpillar's birth certificate when she flew as a lap
baby, because they needed proof that she was under 2 years (and therefore
not required to have her own paid seat). One direction, they wanted to see
it; the other way they didn't. A photocopy was acceptable (I asked in
advance).
Phoebe :)
--
yahoo address is unread; substitute mailbolt
Rosalie B.
>On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:37:46 GMT, Rosalie B.
><gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>I understand why people in the US might not have
>>them, but I think it is shortsighted if you are going
>>to travel at all.
>
>Well, you get them when you plan to travel. Why do
>it years ahead of time?
You don't have to do it years ahead of time, but, in the case of my
niece, she was born in Germany so she had to get a passport right
away. And my dd#2 is a pilot and flies internationally for the
airlines so she can take her kids overseas with very little cost to
her if she has passports. Her older sister (dd#1) has worked overseas
and her children all needed passports too.
So if your family circumstances are such that you might want to
travel, it would be better IMHO to get the passports before you need
them so that you can travel without having to worry about getting the
kids passports back in time.
And even if you just go to Mexico, it's a whole lot easier to have
passports for the kids than to have to carry their birth certificates
around.
grandma Rosalie
Katie
><< Why on earth do you need the kids' birth certificates. I've travelled
>for years and no one has ever asked me for my birth certificate >>
>
>
>We flew (within the US) less than two weeks ago. DD#2 is still under one year
>and we decided to fly without purchasing a seat for her and taking the chance
>that they would have a seat open. (With DD#1, we always purchased her a seat
>of her own but this was a trip with a tight budget.) On the flight out, there
>was no room, but on the flight back there was, and they asked for her birth
>certificate.
<snip>
I've flown twice within Canada with DS (now 8 months old) and both
times on both the out-going and return flights we had to show DS's
birth certificate at check-in and also at the gate when boarding the
plane. They were very adamant about it (and we had to show our
picture ID as well). On both trips, we didn't have a seat for DS. He
was shown on our itineraries as an infant without a seat. Maybe
Canadian airlines are more strict about it.
Katie
Katie
wrote:
>Katie wrote:
>
>> I live in Vancouver and recently drove across the border to Bellingham
>> with my DS (8 months old). DH didn't go. I phoned US customs ahead
>> of time to find out if we needed anything special and I was told to
>> bring DS's birth certificate and a letter from DH stating that it was
>> okay to take DS across the border.
>
>Did the letter have to be notarized?
Nope. Just signed and dated. DH also put his daytime work phone
number on it in case they wanted to call him - but they didn't.
Katie
eggs
"jenn" <je...@hmplc.com> wrote in message
news:blzIc.66280$w56....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> eggs wrote:
>
> >
> > I have the same last name as my husband and kids and I always carry
a
> > 'permission' note from my husband when I travel internationally with
the
> > kids. I don't know how often it would be requested, because I
always
> > just slap it on the counter with the passports when I check in. I
don't
> > think it's screwy, or even an imposition it's an accepted norm. A
quick
>
> actually such letters ARE supposed to be notarized
Huh. Well, there you go. I've only ever used a regular letter. I
haven't been doing much travelling in the lst 12 months though, so I'm
probably way out of date. Thanks for the heads up.
eggs.
eggs
"dragonlady" <meh...@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote in message
news:mehouck-86F3C9...@news.SF.sbcglobal.net...
>
> To be clear, when I was travelling through Canada, NONE of us had
> passports -- not me, not my mom (who sometimes drove with us) and
> certainly not my kids. I'd never had a passport until last year, when
> we travelled to Mexico for my brother's wedding. So there was no
> passport application to refer to.
>
> We were always by car. (Though I've also been to Canada by canoe; no
> checkpoints at all there...)
I think the requirement for all US/Canadian citizens to use a passport
when crossing the border is a post September 11 requirement. Before
then I think you needed either a drivers licence or a birth certificate.
I know we used to cross the border with a drivers license and a
greencard.
eggs.
eggs
> > board on the outbound leg of travel without letting her
> > know she was missing this document. The OP could have just
> > as easily been kidnapping the kids on the outbound trip as
> > the inbound one. There wouldn't be so much trouble
> > enforcing these requirements if the airlines would actually
> > enforce them in a uniform manner.
>
> except her husband was with her on the outbound leg, so it
> wasn't an issue.
>
Doh! I missed this part of the post. Suddenly, things make much more
sense.
eggs (must buy special usenet glasses ...)
eggs
> enigma wrote:
> | "eggs" <segg...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in
> | news:k2lIc.90310$sj4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
> |
>
> I'm still not clear on how that wold be "known" to me.
>
> They clearly printed on the itinerary that a passport would be
required.
> Why wouldn't they also state that a permission letter is required for
the
> return flight?
Because they are sloppy. Ultimately, it is the passengers
responsibility to check all of these things but, if you are useing a
full agent service to buy your tickets then they certainly should have
made you aware of this.
>
> I travelled to NYC from Canada and back last August with just my girls
and
> nobody asked me for a letter.
>
> How long has this been a "known" for you?
>
> sharon
>
I'm not really sure. I know that it has been a requirement for
Australian travellers for a long time (it was the Australian passport
application that stated I would need DH's permission for international
travel with the kids). I took DS from NJ to Australia when he ws 3
months old (back in 2001) and I know they asked for the letter then.
Now that I think about it, the airline for that trip was Air New
Zealand, so maybe it was a NZ requirement before a US one?
eggs.
Buzzy Bee
wrote:
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
><gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>I understand why people in the US might not have
>>them, but I think it is shortsighted if you are going
>>to travel at all.
>
>Well, you get them when you plan to travel. Why do
>it years ahead of time?
In case you have to travel urgently for family reasons. I once had to
arrange to get a new passport for my grandmother on Christmas day when
my Aunt (who was in Australia at the time) was killed in a car crash.
It can be done, believe it or not, but I'd kind of prefer not to deal
with it.
Travel these days is hardly expensive. We paid less than $500 for
*both* of us to fly to the US in the spring, including taxes. To pop
over to Europe can costs us less than $100 each, we should do it more
than the once a year we do, really.
I regularly get e-mails from American Airlines for very good deals at
those sort of prices from all over the US to the Carribean or central
American. Are Americans so insular that they don't take advantage of
these deals?
Ericka Kammerer
> I regularly get e-mails from American Airlines for very good deals at
> those sort of prices from all over the US to the Carribean or central
> American. Are Americans so insular that they don't take advantage of
> these deals?
I have in the past. The biggest issue there is
the passport--if you don't already have one, you may not
be able to take advantage of a good fare when it crops
up. On the other hand, since getting a passport is a
pain, you aren't necessarily motivated to get one until/
unless you need it. Once you have it, though, it's
much the same as anything else, except for language
issues (and Americans do tend to be less likely to
know another language and more likely to allow not
knowing the language to dissuade them from travelling
somewhere).
Right now, however, I find it's mostly our stage
of life that makes me not do much out of country travel.
With young children and a normally hectic life, when
I can take a vacation, I want to spend as little time
getting there as possible and I usually don't feel up
to a lot of touristing. Right now, I'd rather drive a
few hours and stay somewhere I can do nothing (doing
nothing is a huge luxury to me right now ;-) than
go somewhere amazing and see all sorts of cool sights.
Sad, but true ;-) And also, of course, our relatively
meager travel budget doesn't extend a whole lot beyond
the obligatory family visits, and we don't have any
near family outside the US. I think the last time
I *did* travel where it wasn't to visit family
(or our biennial trip to visit friends who might as
well be family) was to Paris for a long weekend with
my mother and sister (taking advantage of one of those
cheap fares)--but that way way back in 2000!
Best wishes,
Ericka
toto
<revers...@yremogtnom-rraf.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:04:43 -0500, toto <scar...@wicked.witch>
>wrote:
> but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>>On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:37:46 GMT, Rosalie B.
>><gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I understand why people in the US might not have
>>>them, but I think it is shortsighted if you are going
>>>to travel at all.
>>
>>Well, you get them when you plan to travel. Why do
>>it years ahead of time?
>
>In case you have to travel urgently for family reasons. I once had to
>arrange to get a new passport for my grandmother on Christmas day when
>my Aunt (who was in Australia at the time) was killed in a car crash.
>It can be done, believe it or not, but I'd kind of prefer not to deal
>with it.
>
My circumstances when I was young made that quite unlikely.
All my relatives lived within a few miles of my parents and most
of them, like my parents didn't travel overseas. They were all
out of the military by the time I was born.
Even today, many Americans never have a *need* to travel outside
the US.
>Travel these days is hardly expensive. We paid less than $500 for
>*both* of us to fly to the US in the spring, including taxes. To pop
>over to Europe can costs us less than $100 each, we should do it more
>than the once a year we do, really.
>
$500 would have been out of reach for my parents (hell, $100 would
have been out of reach back then). But that isn't today, so I can't
say if anyone is in those circumstances now. But *popping* over to
Europe just isn't a priority for me even now. We've been to Chile,
Venezuela, Canada, Egypt and England in the past 10 years, but we
simply don't have a wish to do that much travelling. When we went
we were visiting my son and dil for most of those trips. The one to
England was with my dd and the one to Canada was to visit a friend.
Perhaps I just don't have so much wanderlust because there is so
much to do in Chicago and much that I still haven't seen even though
we are moving away from the city I love.
>I regularly get e-mails from American Airlines for very good deals at
>those sort of prices from all over the US to the Carribean or central
>American. Are Americans so insular that they don't take advantage of
>these deals?
>
It's not a matter of insular. It is a matter of priorities. Travel
was not cheap when I was raising my children. And so, we
rarely travelled except to see their grandparents. When we
did it was within the US border.
The money we saved went to their college accounts. They
never had to worry about finances for college, it was paid
for in full.
>Megan
Donna Metler
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:2jk7f0drovl2oh29b...@4ax.com...
are closed, which means the expensive times of the year. I get the e-mails
with cheap airfares, but it is not feasible to fly to Europe for a weekend.
My husband is more flexible, but must give several weeks notice before using
vacation leave. We've done spur of the moment trips, but always one we
could get to in a few hours from Memphis, which means domestic.
toto
Agreed. We could only travel in the summer once the kids were in
school and we couldn't just take off any old time on vacation since
with hubby's job there was a certain amount of notice that had to be
given to take his vacations as well.
Our spur of the moment weekend trips were also things we could
get too in a few hours so that we didn't spend a lot of time on the
actual travel and more on the activities at the vacation spot.
XOR
> We didn't have much money either as my dad was a college assistant
> professor. But we did travel a lot - not to Canada or Mexico, but my
> dad worked two jobs and took us all to Europe when I was 12. In order
> to save money, my mom and dad put my sister and me on my mom's
> passport with her. This is probably a bad idea nowadays, and it
> wasn't such a good idea even then.
You can't do that anymore. Even a newborn needs his own passport. The
younger the child, the shorter the time it's valid (and it's cheaper).
In the US this has been the case for at least the past 14 years or so,
maybe longer but that was the first time I'd heard of it.
IMO, having a passport is the *best* most official form of ID, even if
you don't travel much. They are much harder to fake than a driver's
license. However, unfortunately in some places people are clueless and
have no idea what a passport looks like....
XOR
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:37:46 GMT, Rosalie B.
> <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >I understand why people in the US might not have
> >them, but I think it is shortsighted if you are going
> >to travel at all.
>
> Well, you get them when you plan to travel. Why do
> it years ahead of time?
It's the most official form of ID there is. It's extremely hard for
the average person to make a fake passport, whilst there are tons of
people who can make fake driver's licenses.
XOR
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:14:31 GMT, "Cathy Kearns"
> >the age of 18 and traveling alone should carry a letter from his/her parent
> >or guardian authorizing the trip.
>
> Wow! I travelled quite extensively in Europe and passed through the
> US at 16/17 and only ever had my passport with me. Hrmm.
>
This has gotten much more strict in recent years. I am not sure when
the policies were first enacted, but certainly they've been made known
in travel guides and such in the last few years (pre-2001, but late
90s maybe).
I travelled on my own internationally at 17 with no problems, but that
was 1987.
Iuil
"Donna Metler" wrote
> It's also time. My work schedule is such that I can only travel when
schools
> are closed, which means the expensive times of the year. I get the
e-mails
> with cheap airfares, but it is not feasible to fly to Europe for a
weekend.
I've flown to New York for a weekend. Twice. Both times during school term
(I'm also a teacher). Yes you won't see everything but you'll fit the
priorities in.
> My husband is more flexible, but must give several weeks notice before
using
> vacation leave. We've done spur of the moment trips, but always one we
> could get to in a few hours from Memphis, which means domestic.
>
Well, Memphis not being a hub would be a drawback. But you can get to
Ireland or the UK in a matter of hours from Atlanta (or New York or Boston
or Chicago etc).
Jean
Mary W.
And for us, when we travel as a family, we usually like to go see family,
since our relatives are spread about the US. Which means we go
to California, Wisconsin and Arizona alot (from Georgia).
DD (age 3) does have a passport, because we had planned to take
her to Mexico (I had a conference). But as it turned out, flights never
got below about $350 for the dates I needed to be there, so we didn't
go. DH and I did travel to Europe a couple of times before DD was
born, and as the kids get older we will probably go again. Or
we may just go to Utah to ski :)
Mary
enigma
news:slrncf60pv....@manx.misty.com:
> I'm spurred to wondering, though - given that the passport
> offices are generally only open for a piddling few hours
> during the week - worse than banks, at least around here -
> is this going to be an excused school absence, or what? Can
> I write a note to the teacher that says "J couldn't come to
> school - we had to go to the passport office?"
it should be. when i was between 3rd grade & 6th grade, my dad
used to take my brother & me to the NEERAM shows in Boston.
those were 3 days one week per year out of school. he took us
to the show as employees & we did "work" the booth somewhat,
but mostly it was lots of fun playing with all the nifty new
electronic inventions at the show. AFAIK, the school didn't
have any complaints about that (or the week in February when
we went diving in the caribbean, although we did have to take
schoolwork on those trips too. February was when dad could
take a vacation).
i'd say a trip to the passport office is educational in a
dealing with beuracracy sort of way ;)
lee
--
It is paradoxical that many educators and parents still
differentiate
between a time for learning and a time for play without seeing
the vital
connection between them. -Leo Buscaglia, author (1924-1998)
Ericka Kammerer
> hil...@hillary.net (Hillary Israeli) wrote in
> news:slrncf60pv....@manx.misty.com:
>
>>I'm spurred to wondering, though - given that the passport
>>offices are generally only open for a piddling few hours
>>during the week - worse than banks, at least around here -
>>is this going to be an excused school absence, or what? Can
>>I write a note to the teacher that says "J couldn't come to
>>school - we had to go to the passport office?"
>
>
> it should be. when i was between 3rd grade & 6th grade, my dad
> used to take my brother & me to the NEERAM shows in Boston.
> those were 3 days one week per year out of school. he took us
> to the show as employees & we did "work" the booth somewhat,
> but mostly it was lots of fun playing with all the nifty new
> electronic inventions at the show. AFAIK, the school didn't
> have any complaints about that (or the week in February when
> we went diving in the caribbean, although we did have to take
> schoolwork on those trips too. February was when dad could
> take a vacation).
> i'd say a trip to the passport office is educational in a
> dealing with beuracracy sort of way ;)
Times have changed. Thanks to "No Child Left
Behind" many school districts have implemented draconian
attendance policies. At some schools, eight days of
unexcused absences could get you failed anymore. Ridiculous,
I know, but it happens.
Best wishes,
Ericka
dragonlady
"Mary W." <mbwa...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I've never been off the continent (North America, that is) and have no
burning desire to do so. There's so much more HERE that I'd still like
to see! And, like you, with relatives spread all over (in our case, the
six of us sibs live in Alaska, California, Nevada, Iowa, Minnesota, and
Massachusetts; my parents live on wheels, but summer mostly in
Wisconsin and winter in Texas and California) when I CAN break out the
time and money to travel, I want to see relatives.
Of course, we've had almost no "vacation" types of vacations. Maybe
that will change in the future, but for now, this life is OK.
Hillary Israeli
enigma <eni...@empire.net> wrote:
*hil...@hillary.net (Hillary Israeli) wrote in
*news:slrncf60pv....@manx.misty.com:
*> I'm spurred to wondering, though - given that the passport
*> offices are generally only open for a piddling few hours
*> during the week - worse than banks, at least around here -
*> is this going to be an excused school absence, or what? Can
*> I write a note to the teacher that says "J couldn't come to
*> school - we had to go to the passport office?"
*
*it should be. when i was between 3rd grade & 6th grade, my dad
*used to take my brother & me to the NEERAM shows in Boston.
Should be !=is. I don't know what NEERAM shows are, but most of the
schools around here are NOT so lenient as to let kids be excused for
family vacations at off times and such anymore.
--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net in...@hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)
Phoebe & Allyson
> Are Americans so insular that they don't take advantage of
> these deals?
Yep. :) Having never been to the Caribbean or Central America, I can't
imagine why I'd want to go there. There are never special deals to fly to
Yellowstone(no airport close), and I'd love to go there on the spur of the
moment.
Tracey
> I regularly get e-mails from American Airlines for very good deals at
> those sort of prices from all over the US to the Carribean or central
> American. Are Americans so insular that they don't take advantage of
> these deals?
There are a few things at play here that keep many Americans from
traveling internationally.
You have to consider that the USA is so big compared to European
countries. Most of us don't feel a need to travel outside of the US because
there is so many different things here (beach, mountains, warm climate, cold
climate, etc) and the country is so big that we don't even have much
opportunity to know our own country, let alone other countries. My husband
and I travel a lot, we go on a lot of trips, but we haven't even managed to
make it from the East Coast (where we live) to the West Coast because its
just too far for us to go during most of our vacations. Distance and travel
time, is a HUGE consideration for most of us. If one lives in Europe,
hopping on a plane or a train to go from London to Paris is a short trip
that you can do in a weekend, for us, a trip to Paris isn't worthwhile
unless you can go for a week or more.
Frankly, longer trips are impossible for most of us here in the USA
because we almost universally lack the paid vacation time that the Europeans
enjoy. Two weeks vacation is standard, you only get up to 3 or 4 weeks
vacation after many years in the same job, and most of us only get about
8-10 other single paid holidays (Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, etc).
If my husband had 6-8 weeks of paid vacation time, I am sure we would do a
lot more traveling than we do, but without all that paid vacation, we are
limited to a few long weekend type trips and one or two one week vacations
per year, most of which we end up using to visit family and friends we don't
see that often. Its just different, and our travel patterns reflect it, I
think.
Tracey
Hillary Israeli
XOR <xo...@netscape.net> wrote:
*toto <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message news:<e766f010mjsjd0ic3...@4ax.com>...
*> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:37:46 GMT, Rosalie B.
*> <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
*>
*> >I understand why people in the US might not have
*> >them, but I think it is shortsighted if you are going
*> >to travel at all.
*>
*> Well, you get them when you plan to travel. Why do
*> it years ahead of time?
*
*It's the most official form of ID there is. It's extremely hard for
*the average person to make a fake passport, whilst there are tons of
*people who can make fake driver's licenses.
But there are a LOT of bars who won't accept passports as proof of ID. At
least, in my experience, there are plenty of bars in Philadelphia, San
Francisco, Berkeley, Boston, Providence, and DC which will not accept
passports. I may be simply extremely unlucky but I would kind of doubt I
could be THAT unlucky...
Karen
> these deals?
>
> Megan
It's not insular, it's economics. After the flight there is still the
expense of accomodations, car rental (if you don't go to an area with
reliable public transportation), food etc..... Add children to the mix
and it gets exponentially more expensive. The american dollar is weak
against the Euro right now making it even more expensive for Americans
to travel to much of Europe. Sure, one could go for a short time
period but not many people are willing to sit on a plane for 8 hours
only to stay one or two nights
My dh is currently planning a trip to Prague in October. He is taking
his father. They will be flying on frequent flyer miles, only paying
tax on their tickets, staying in the cheapest hotel they can that
still fits the minimum requirements-it must have an elevator for fil
for example-only renting a car for a couple days to go to some towns
outside of Prague and only staying for 6 days. Fil is paying for
himself and dh is paying for his expenses and I estimate this trip
will still cost us at least $800 when all is said and done. That's a
lot of money and that is just one person travelling, not a family.
We won't even get into the current work environment in many businesses
in the US now. It's not uncommon for employees to be afraid to take
vacation for fear of it looking like they aren't 'dedicated' enough
and eventually losing out on promotions or possibly their job
altogether. That is a whole other can of worms.
Karen
Banty
>
>In <nmn5f0hp005stuj9t...@4ax.com>,
>LisaBell <lisab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>*On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:07:48 +0000 (UTC), hil...@hillary.net (Hillary
>*Israeli) wrote:
>*
>*>In <tn95f09rk13bg99hm...@4ax.com>,
>*>LisaBell <lisab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>*>
>*>*Btw, new rules (this year) regarding issue/renewal of US passports to
>*>*minors require that the child appear in person at the passport office.
>*>
>*>Oh - when we got our son's passport, they said both parents had to be
>*>there at the time of application, OR we could do it with one parent and a
>*>notarized statement from the other parent. FWIW. This was in 2000.
>*
>*
>*I know. This is the way it used to be. Recently friends of ours were
>
>It's still that way isn't it? I was unaware of them removing that
>requirement, anyway. I wouldn't have known either way about the additional
>new requirement you mentioned, about having to have the kid with you. I
>was, I supposed rather obviously, bringing my son with me to the passport
>office because he was a nursing infant at the time - I think he was about
>a month old.
>
>I'm spurred to wondering, though - given that the passport offices are
>generally only open for a piddling few hours during the week - worse than
>banks, at least around here - is this going to be an excused school
>absence, or what? Can I write a note to the teacher that says "J couldn't
>come to school - we had to go to the passport office?"
I didn't have that problem. There's spring break, school administrator days
(whatever they do during those days) and various teacher training days. And all
summer. Since the passport needs to be applied for in advance anyway (unless
one expedites - but that's another fee and more nail-biting if plan tickets
abroad have been bought), one plans for one of those days when school isn't in
session, but the rest of the world is.
Banty
Hillary Israeli
Banty <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
*>I'm spurred to wondering, though - given that the passport offices are
*>generally only open for a piddling few hours during the week - worse than
*>banks, at least around here - is this going to be an excused school
*>absence, or what? Can I write a note to the teacher that says "J couldn't
*>come to school - we had to go to the passport office?"
*
*I didn't have that problem. There's spring break, school administrator days
*(whatever they do during those days) and various teacher training days. And all
*summer. Since the passport needs to be applied for in advance anyway (unless
I guess that's true. I wasn't thinking of that. :)
thumper
> Buzzy Bee <revers...@yremogtnom-rraf.com> wrote in
> news:mui4f0dom3b63mu37...@4ax.com:
> > Why on earth do you need the kids' birth certificates.
>
> the kid's birth certificates are needed if they don't have
> passports yet. americans don't need passports to travel to
> canada or mexaco (yet... although they may need the passports
> to get back into the US), so it's pretty common to go to
> either border country with the kids & no passports, just
> drivers license or state issued picture ID for the adults &
> birth certificates for the kids. no big deal if both parents
> go &/or the border guard you get isn't being a jerk.
Even with passports, a birth certificate may be needed. My friends
took their son to Mexico (from US) a few years ago, everyone had
passports. Then the gate agent asked where the baby's mother was.
She was standing right there, but has a different name than her
husband and baby, and couldn't prove the baby was hers. So, they had
to go home to get the birth certificate, missing their flights, before
they were able to board. Fortunately it was on the outbound leg of
the trip.
Another friend and her husband had a similar problem driving to
Canada, crossing at Niagara Falls. They had two small children and
needed proof that the children were theirs before they could cross the
border. Both parents were there, but they had no id for the kids.
Eventually they separated the children from the parents-took them
aside in the same room, and asked who their mommy and daddy were, and
fortunately the little girl (6ish at the time) didn't get upset.
Take care,
Lisa
Donna Metler
"Hillary Israeli" <hil...@hillary.net> wrote in message
news:slrncf8gkf....@manx.misty.com...
> In <cd1di...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> Banty <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> *>I'm spurred to wondering, though - given that the passport offices are
> *>generally only open for a piddling few hours during the week - worse
than
> *>banks, at least around here - is this going to be an excused school
> *>absence, or what? Can I write a note to the teacher that says "J
couldn't
> *>come to school - we had to go to the passport office?"
> *
> *I didn't have that problem. There's spring break, school administrator
days
> *(whatever they do during those days) and various teacher training days.
And all
> *summer. Since the passport needs to be applied for in advance anyway
(unless
>
> I guess that's true. I wasn't thinking of that. :)
>
outside of direct teaching-setting up the classroom in the fall, grading,
parent conferences, packing in the spring. The other days are training-and
are usually quite useless.
Mary W.
thumper wrote:
> enigma <eni...@empire.net> wrote in message news:<Xns95244ED6FA69...@199.125.85.9>...
>
> > Buzzy Bee <revers...@yremogtnom-rraf.com> wrote in
> > news:mui4f0dom3b63mu37...@4ax.com:
>
> > > Why on earth do you need the kids' birth certificates.
> >
> > the kid's birth certificates are needed if they don't have
> > passports yet. americans don't need passports to travel to
> > canada or mexaco (yet... although they may need the passports
> > to get back into the US), so it's pretty common to go to
> > either border country with the kids & no passports, just
> > drivers license or state issued picture ID for the adults &
> > birth certificates for the kids. no big deal if both parents
> > go &/or the border guard you get isn't being a jerk.
>
> Even with passports, a birth certificate may be needed. My friends
> took their son to Mexico (from US) a few years ago, everyone had
> passports. Then the gate agent asked where the baby's mother was.
> She was standing right there, but has a different name than her
> husband and baby, and couldn't prove the baby was hers. So, they had
> to go home to get the birth certificate, missing their flights, before
> they were able to board. Fortunately it was on the outbound leg of
> the trip.
Wow. That's good to know, it wouldn't have even occurred to
me to take DD's birth certificate if we had her passport (her
name is different than mine, same as her dad's).
Mary
XOR
> I regularly get e-mails from American Airlines for very good deals at
> those sort of prices from all over the US to the Carribean or central
> American. Are Americans so insular that they don't take advantage of
> these deals?
Pretty much, yeah. Unfortunately it explains much of the current
American thinking. :(
Add into that only 2 weeks vacation time.
That said, we've decided that as long as we live in the US we'll focus
our travel on the Americas (North and South), and once we move to
Europe we'll focus on the rest of the world. Of course we also have
obligatory holidays to visit family, which stinks. Well, I like seeing
family, just stinks that we have to use up precious vacation time to
do it.
XOR
> I regularly get e-mails from American Airlines for very good deals at
> those sort of prices from all over the US to the Carribean or central
> American. Are Americans so insular that they don't take advantage of
> these deals?
Yup. That's pretty much it. But you knew that.
Unfortunately it explains current American foreign policy as well.
That said, we've decided to focus our travel on the Americas as long
as we're living in the US, so Peru is next on the list. When we move
back to Europe we'll focus on the rest of the world. Unfortunately,
with only 2 weeks holiday time per year, that limits us. And of course
there are the obligatory family visits.
XOR
> "Donna Metler" wrote
> > My husband is more flexible, but must give several weeks notice before
> using
> > vacation leave. We've done spur of the moment trips, but always one we
> > could get to in a few hours from Memphis, which means domestic.
> >
>
> Well, Memphis not being a hub would be a drawback. But you can get to
> Ireland or the UK in a matter of hours from Atlanta (or New York or Boston
> or Chicago etc).
Actually, Memphis is a hub for Northwest. They have regular direct
flights to Amsterdam from there.
But as you know that's not really relevant. Most Americans have no
desire to leave the country.
Donna Metler
"XOR" <xo...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:a893915f.04071...@posting.google.com...
> "Iuil" <iui...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<2li7qtF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> > "Donna Metler" wrote
>
> > > My husband is more flexible, but must give several weeks notice before
> > using
> > > vacation leave. We've done spur of the moment trips, but always one
we
> > > could get to in a few hours from Memphis, which means domestic.
> > >
> >
> > Well, Memphis not being a hub would be a drawback. But you can get to
> > Ireland or the UK in a matter of hours from Atlanta (or New York or
Boston
> > or Chicago etc).
>
>
> Actually, Memphis is a hub for Northwest. They have regular direct
> flights to Amsterdam from there.
>
compared to the mailings I get from American or US Air. And it's hard to
justify spending 2 hours in an airport, 6 hours or more each way in the air,
for a 3 day weekend. Over Christmas, Spring Break, and in the summer, a lot
of the flights are more expensive.
So, right now, we're sticking mostly in the Americas as well-we spent last
Christmas break in Puerto Rico, and the one before that in Mexico. And I
wouldn't want to do either of those flights over a weekend, either.
> But as you know that's not really relevant. Most Americans have no
> desire to leave the country.
I have a long list of places I want to visit-but right now time and money
are both issues-and I suspect that once Baby arrives in December, vacation
time will be spent doing the grandparent shuffle.
My parents finally went to Africa this past year-but it took until they were
semi-retired to have the time to do a month long trip.
Iuil
"Mary W." wrote
>
> Wow. That's good to know, it wouldn't have even occurred to
> me to take DD's birth certificate if we had her passport (her
> name is different than mine, same as her dad's).
That's one of the reasons I insisted that DD have both our surnames. I
didn't want to run into people who thought that I couldn't travel with her
or give consent for medical treatment.
Jean
Rosalie B.
>
>"dragonlady" <meh...@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote in message
>news:mehouck-86F3C9...@news.SF.sbcglobal.net...
>>
>> To be clear, when I was travelling through Canada, NONE of us had
>> passports -- not me, not my mom (who sometimes drove with us) and
>> certainly not my kids. I'd never had a passport until last year, when
>> we travelled to Mexico for my brother's wedding. So there was no
>> passport application to refer to.
>>
>> We were always by car. (Though I've also been to Canada by canoe; no
>> checkpoints at all there...)
>
>I think the requirement for all US/Canadian citizens to use a passport
>when crossing the border is a post September 11 requirement. Before
>then I think you needed either a drivers licence or a birth certificate.
>I know we used to cross the border with a drivers license and a
>greencard.
>
There is some kind of new regulation (within a year) that people that
are permanent Canadian residents but not Canadian citizens have to
have some kind of special document before they leave Canada, or they
won't be able to go back to Canada.
grandma Rosalie
Nancy P
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:e766f010mjsjd0ic3...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:37:46 GMT, Rosalie B.
> <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >I understand why people in the US might not have
>
> Well, you get them when you plan to travel. Why do
>
I met someone in college who had many family members perish in the
holocaust, and blamed it in part on not being able to get passports by the
time they wanted them. This particular woman and her family always kept
their passports current and had a small bag packed in case they ever needed
to take off. At the time I thought it was a bit of an overreaction, but it
also makes sense. The government can change on a dime on many issues. That
being said, DH's and my passports have either expired or are about to, and
we don't have them for our children. I think I'll get them.
Nancy
Rosalie B.
>On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:52:30 GMT, Buzzy Bee
><revers...@yremogtnom-rraf.com> wrote:
>
>It's not a matter of insular. It is a matter of priorities. Travel
>was not cheap when I was raising my children. And so, we
>rarely travelled except to see their grandparents. When we
>did it was within the US border.
>
>The money we saved went to their college accounts. They
>never had to worry about finances for college, it was paid
>for in full.
While I agree that those people who can't afford to travel and have no
relatives that travel or are likely to travel don't need to get
passports, I disagree that you should restrict travel because you want
to save money for college. IMHO travel is more valuable than money.
Even if you can only travel in your home country and can't go more
than a day away from home.
We had kids from the local school who had never seen elevators or
escalators - there were none in our county in those days. So when we
went on a field trip to the Smithsonian in 7th grade, we had to
restrict the number of times they could ride the escalator or that's
all they would have done. And when the band kids went to the band
festival at the state university, they spend their time riding up and
down in the elevator.
College can always be managed if you want it enough by borrowing,
working etc. I do not regard having saved enough money for college
for ones children to be a primary goal. In some cases (and my ds, one
SIL and one of my grandsons are examples), college that is fully paid
for by parents is not properly appreciated. In those cases, it was
necessary for them to WANT college enough to figure out how to do it
on their own because they screwed it up the first time they tried it
which would be a complete waste of the parent's money.
grandma Rosalie
Rosalie B.
>Buzzy Bee <revers...@yremogtnom-rraf.com> wrote in message Are Americans so insular that they don't take advantage of
>> these deals?
>>
>> Megan
>
>It's not insular, it's economics. After the flight there is still the
>expense of accomodations, car rental (if you don't go to an area with
>reliable public transportation), food etc..... Add children to the mix
>and it gets exponentially more expensive. The american dollar is weak
>against the Euro right now making it even more expensive for Americans
a) the dollar hasn't always been weak against the Euro - that's very
recent.
b) you don't have to travel to Europe to need a passport
c) there are cheaper places to go than Europe
d) most places outside the US have reliable public transportation
e) all of those things (rental car, accommodation cost, flight cost)
except the dollar being weak apply for any vacation anywhere even
within the US.
f) children make it more expensive to do anything.
>to travel to much of Europe. Sure, one could go for a short time
>period but not many people are willing to sit on a plane for 8 hours
>only to stay one or two nights
>My dh is currently planning a trip to Prague in October. He is taking
>his father. They will be flying on frequent flyer miles, only paying
>tax on their tickets, staying in the cheapest hotel they can that
>still fits the minimum requirements-it must have an elevator for fil
>for example-only renting a car for a couple days to go to some towns
>outside of Prague and only staying for 6 days. Fil is paying for
Cheaper air fare if you stay over Saturday night or more than a week.
>himself and dh is paying for his expenses and I estimate this trip
>will still cost us at least $800 when all is said and done. That's a
>lot of money and that is just one person travelling, not a family.
>We won't even get into the current work environment in many businesses
>in the US now. It's not uncommon for employees to be afraid to take
>vacation for fear of it looking like they aren't 'dedicated' enough
>and eventually losing out on promotions or possibly their job
>altogether. That is a whole other can of worms.
>
>Karen
grandma Rosalie
lizzard woman
| While I agree that those people who can't afford to travel and have no
| relatives that travel or are likely to travel don't need to get
| passports, I disagree that you should restrict travel because you want
| to save money for college. IMHO travel is more valuable than money.
| Even if you can only travel in your home country and can't go more
| than a day away from home.
As someone whose children have been old enough to have experienced living in
Florida, Puerto Rico, and Canada, and visiting several islands in the
Caribbean and Hawai'i, I'm going to say that money for college is more
valuable that travel in my experience and opinion. Mayeb if the list was
longer of places we have lived, I'd agree. But also, the amount of money
required for travel is relatively low compared to financing a college
education such that it is mostly in the noise and that this is a false
dichotomy.
(snip)
| College can always be managed if you want it enough by borrowing,
| working etc. I do not regard having saved enough money for college
| for ones children to be a primary goal. In some cases (and my ds, one
| SIL and one of my grandsons are examples), college that is fully paid
| for by parents is not properly appreciated. In those cases, it was
| necessary for them to WANT college enough to figure out how to do it
| on their own because they screwed it up the first time they tried it
| which would be a complete waste of the parent's money.
This has not been the experience with my three brothers and I. We all were
financed through college and grad school and we all have very nice careers.
You can make a kid want to go to college while still financing them. My
folks figured that one out and I am doing the same with my daughters. I
suspect there might be something else going on with your examples beyond
being financed.
sharon
dragonlady
"lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Rosalie B. wrote:
>
>
> | College can always be managed if you want it enough by borrowing,
> | working etc. I do not regard having saved enough money for college
> | for ones children to be a primary goal. In some cases (and my ds, one
> | SIL and one of my grandsons are examples), college that is fully paid
> | for by parents is not properly appreciated. In those cases, it was
> | necessary for them to WANT college enough to figure out how to do it
> | on their own because they screwed it up the first time they tried it
> | which would be a complete waste of the parent's money.
>
> This has not been the experience with my three brothers and I. We all were
> financed through college and grad school and we all have very nice careers.
> You can make a kid want to go to college while still financing them. My
> folks figured that one out and I am doing the same with my daughters. I
> suspect there might be something else going on with your examples beyond
> being financed.
>
OK -- I'll bite -- how?
Right now, all my kids are enrolled in community college in the fall,
but in at least one case, I'm pretty sure it's just because she knows if
she is NOT in school, she'll have to start paying rent.
Assuming the logical arguments about the need to be able to make enough
money to support yourself are ineffective, how, exactly, to you MAKE a
kid want to go to college?
Cathy Weeks
> I regularly get e-mails from American Airlines for very good deals at
> those sort of prices from all over the US to the Carribean or central
> American. Are Americans so insular that they don't take advantage of
> these deals?
Well... yes. But you've got to understand, that the US is a really
big country. Not as big as Russia, China, or Canada (we're 4th largest
if I remember correctly), and there's a lot to see right here at home.
So if we do break routine and actually go somewhere, there's a lot
here. (That's not to say that people aren't insular ... I make jokes
about people here in New Jersey - they make fun of midwestern areas
like Missouri where I'm from, claiming that there's nothing to do -
but nobody in NJ actually does anything other than go to work or
school, or to the movies, which is essentially what people in Missouri
do, too)
Not only that, but when we do go somewhere other than Canada or
Mexico, it's a LONG trip, and even those countries are a long way away
from many of us. We're probably 5-6 hours by car from the nearest
Canadian border, and probably 30 hours from Mexico.
It's a bit of a paradigm shift - someone once told me that there's
nowhere in the British Iles that is more than 75 miles from an ocean,
and that seems so strange to me. Here... well, I'm only 50 miles from
the Atlantic as the crow flies, but most of my life, I was more than
1000 miles from ANY ocean, and many hundreds of miles from any foreign
border.
Then there's expense. We looked into visiting Germany a few years ago,
and yes, I found cheap tickets - maybe $400 USD for each of us, but a
week in Germany would have cost us more than $3000 in food, travel and
lodging. I've never really had that kind of money to spare. We could
go for shorter, but then you're dealing with jet lag the whole time,
and things are so different that we wouldn't want to go for shorter.
Sort of a vicious circle.
Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01
lizzard woman
| In article <a%%Ic.10734$Mr4.6741@pd7tw1no>,
| "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
(snip)
|| This has not been the experience with my three brothers and I. We
|| all were financed through college and grad school and we all have
|| very nice careers. You can make a kid want to go to college while
|| still financing them. My folks figured that one out and I am doing
|| the same with my daughters. I suspect there might be something else
|| going on with your examples beyond being financed.
||
| OK -- I'll bite -- how?
My parents simply assumed that we would all go to college and hopefully
graduate school and that was true for every single conversation on the
matter that I remember. This was assumed. Although my parents only had a
few years of college between tem and no degrees, it was not obvious to me
growing up that all kids *didn't* go to college in my generation. Indeed,
99.999% of my graduating HS class attended college.
| Right now, all my kids are enrolled in community college in the fall,
| but in at least one case, I'm pretty sure it's just because she knows
| if she is NOT in school, she'll have to start paying rent.
No that's a fine reason in my opinion. I tell my girls that college and
grad school are easier and more fun than working a job (as opposed to a
career) and that they need college/grad school to get a career. Bribery is
fine is my book and I intend to use it if necessary. Any port in a storm.
| Assuming the logical arguments about the need to be able to make
| enough money to support yourself are ineffective, how, exactly, to
| you MAKE a kid want to go to college?
I think you just raise them to assume they will go to college. It worked
for my brothers and I and I expect it will work for my kids. We routinely
discuss various jobs and careers and how enjoyable each might be and how
much money can be expected as salary. It is never too early to think about
these things.
Now it is certainly possible (though not very likely) that one or both of my
girls would choose a job and not a career. In that case, I think I would
encourage them to get any and every cetificate or other credential as
possible. But they know very well that they can't count on us to subsidize
their lifestyle if they choose that route. In contrast, they will get help
past college/grad school for buying a house or whatever if they go to
college. Any port in a storm. I want to enjoy my retirement and not have
to worry about them perhaps relying on another person when they didn't want
to or living in poverty.
sharon
Rosalie B.
>dragonlady wrote:
>| In article <a%%Ic.10734$Mr4.6741@pd7tw1no>,
>| "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>(snip)
>
>|| This has not been the experience with my three brothers and I. We
>|| all were financed through college and grad school and we all have
>|| very nice careers. You can make a kid want to go to college while
>|| still financing them. My folks figured that one out and I am doing
>|| the same with my daughters. I suspect there might be something else
>|| going on with your examples beyond being financed.
>||
>| OK -- I'll bite -- how?
>
>My parents simply assumed that we would all go to college and hopefully
>graduate school and that was true for every single conversation on the
>matter that I remember. This was assumed. Although my parents only had a
>few years of college between tem and no degrees, it was not obvious to me
>growing up that all kids *didn't* go to college in my generation. Indeed,
>99.999% of my graduating HS class attended college.
I think you are being naive if you think this will do it. My dd#1
told me that she really wasn't sure that she wanted to go to college,
but it was easier to go than to try to explain to me why she didn't
want to. And in fact, she got pg in her freshman year and got
married, and had two children, so it took her 7 years to get through
college (on her own nickel because once she got married she wasn't our
responsibility any more). She now has a masters in math.
>
>| Right now, all my kids are enrolled in community college in the fall,
>| but in at least one case, I'm pretty sure it's just because she knows
>| if she is NOT in school, she'll have to start paying rent.
>
>No that's a fine reason in my opinion. I tell my girls that college and
>grad school are easier and more fun than working a job (as opposed to a
>career) and that they need college/grad school to get a career. Bribery is
>fine is my book and I intend to use it if necessary. Any port in a storm.
>
It didn't work for my grandson - he dropped out of college because he
thought it was too much work. He had to pay him mom rent, and he
didn't have a car and didn't have a driver's license. He's only now
(at age 23) gone back to try again (on his own nickel)
>| Assuming the logical arguments about the need to be able to make
>| enough money to support yourself are ineffective, how, exactly, to
>| you MAKE a kid want to go to college?
>
>I think you just raise them to assume they will go to college. It worked
>for my brothers and I and I expect it will work for my kids. We routinely
>discuss various jobs and careers and how enjoyable each might be and how
>much money can be expected as salary. It is never too early to think about
>these things.
My ds was way more interested in working and earning money than he was
in school. And he did very well and earns good money without a
college degree of any kind. Because he was a good employee and
learned quickly and advanced. He wanted to drive a vehicle for a
living. It wasn't until he was working for UPS that he suddenly had
an epiphany about the need for college.
>
>Now it is certainly possible (though not very likely) that one or both of my
>girls would choose a job and not a career. In that case, I think I would
>encourage them to get any and every cetificate or other credential as
>possible. But they know very well that they can't count on us to subsidize
>their lifestyle if they choose that route. In contrast, they will get help
>past college/grad school for buying a house or whatever if they go to
>college. Any port in a storm. I want to enjoy my retirement and not have
>to worry about them perhaps relying on another person when they didn't want
>to or living in poverty.
>
My ds makes as much money without a college degree as I did with one.
Career vs job does not mean well paid vs poorly paid.
grandma Rosalie
lizzard woman
| "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
|
|| dragonlady wrote:
||| In article <a%%Ic.10734$Mr4.6741@pd7tw1no>,
||| "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
||
|| (snip)
||
|||| This has not been the experience with my three brothers and I. We
|||| all were financed through college and grad school and we all have
|||| very nice careers. You can make a kid want to go to college while
|||| still financing them. My folks figured that one out and I am doing
|||| the same with my daughters. I suspect there might be something
|||| else going on with your examples beyond being financed.
||||
||| OK -- I'll bite -- how?
||
|| My parents simply assumed that we would all go to college and
|| hopefully graduate school and that was true for every single
|| conversation on the matter that I remember. This was assumed.
|| Although my parents only had a few years of college between tem and
|| no degrees, it was not obvious to me growing up that all kids
|| *didn't* go to college in my generation. Indeed,
|| 99.999% of my graduating HS class attended college.
|
| I think you are being naive if you think this will do it.
I think each of us only has our empirical evidence from our own families
with very small sample sizes.
That said, my parents batted 1000 with their approach and I will be doing my
level best to equal their record.
sharon