lead paint
Sara
now that Ollie's crawling and picking things up off the floor (and
eating them), I'm concerned. I'm going to talk to his pediatrician
about it this week, but to hold me over until then -- have any of you
had experience with lead paint? What did you have to do to fix it?
We're renters in New York City, by the way, and our building is small
enough that our landlady might not have to obey the regulations a
larger building would be held to. The building is old enough that we
should presume there's lead paint there, and it's peeling in places.
--
Sara, accompanied by the must-crawl-must-crawl-lemme-go barnacle
<< I check this e-mail account infrequently >>
Jennifer
>Somehow I'd managed to not think about the paint in our apartment, but
>now that Ollie's crawling and picking things up off the floor (and
>eating them), I'm concerned. I'm going to talk to his pediatrician
>about it this week, but to hold me over until then -- have any of you
>had experience with lead paint? What did you have to do to fix it?
I live in a 103 year old farmhouse and I know we have lead-based paint too.
There are several areas where it is peeling. It was worse before the baby was
born, I have made my husband work on it, carefully. I actually got a lot of
information by googling misc.kids* from the past few years for lead paint.
There are lots of websites out there that give useful information too.
It depends where you live what you have to do to get rid of the lead-based
paint. It is mostly a problem with peeling paint. If it is in good condition it
is probably best to leave it alone. I live in Iowa and there are no laws or
restrictions on how to get rid of it. I believe in Massachusetts the laws are
strict on lead paint removal and you have to hire certified removers. I don't
know about New York.
Here are some things I have done in my house:
-Buy a good HEPA filtered vacuum cleaner that will not release any lead dust
picked up back into the air.
-Buy a special cleaner for lead dust, chips etc. and clean windowsills and
doorframes with it weekly (ok I'm not doing it weekly yet, but I should be as
my babe is crawling too) (I got mine at http://ledizolv.com).
-Got new carpeting for the house after my husband repainted the living room
where the paint had been peeling (probably not feasible for everyone!)
-Got my son's blood tested for lead at 6 months, just to see. It was fine. The
doctor seemed pretty clueless, even after I told her about my house she didn't
really understand why I wanted to test early (it is usually done at one year,
but from everything I have read you should test at 6 months for high risk
babies).
Here's a couple of websites that seem to have good info:
What Every Parent Should Know About Lead Poisoning:
http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/faq/cdc97a.htm
Alliance to End Childhood Lead Poisoning
http://www.aeclp.org/
Massachusetts Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program
http://www.state.ma.us/dph/clppp/
Hope this helps!
Jennifer
mom to Jacob 9/27/03
Jennifer
>
>Jennifer
>mom to Jacob 9/27/03
Oops..my son was born on 9/27/02, so he is 7.5 months old now, not "not yet
born"! Sorry!
Sara
> I live in a 103 year old farmhouse and I know we have lead-based paint too.
(snip lots of good stuff)
> Hope this helps!
It certainly does. Thanks, Jennifer -- that's loads of useful
information.
--
Sara, accompanied by the baby barnacle
Rosalie B.
>Somehow I'd managed to not think about the paint in our apartment, but
>now that Ollie's crawling and picking things up off the floor (and
>eating them), I'm concerned. I'm going to talk to his pediatrician
>about it this week, but to hold me over until then -- have any of you
>had experience with lead paint? What did you have to do to fix it?
I think you should be able to get the paint tested by HUD or some
other such agency. They should test the dust by doing a wipe test or
a swipe test. For HUD type testing, they use baby wipes but ideally
you shouldn't have to do it yourself.
WIndow sills are the most risky. If you intend to remediate it
yourself, be really careful about getting dust into the air. I saw a
This Old House where they were doing a brownstone apt in NY, and they
replaced the window casings rather than try to remediate them as it
was cheaper. Also keep in mind that if you do any sanding at all, the
dust is going to get into any soft furnishings that you have (it's
unavoidable), and they should all be replaced afterwards. It is also
possible for a person doing the work in a DIY mode to themselves
become lead intoxicated, but it is not as severe a problem in adults
as it is in children. In children the lead goes to the brain and
causes brain damage.
>
>We're renters in New York City, by the way, and our building is small
>enough that our landlady might not have to obey the regulations a
>larger building would be held to. The building is old enough that we
>should presume there's lead paint there, and it's peeling in places.
Don't let them tell you that the blood lead is 'normal' or anything
like that. If there is ANY lead in the blood it's not normal. Lead
is NOT a normal component of blood like iron is.
RosalieAnn Figge Beasley, C.I.H.
retired - formerly MOSHA Consultation
Tina
> Somehow I'd managed to not think about the paint in our apartment, but
> now that Ollie's crawling and picking things up off the floor (and
> eating them), I'm concerned. I'm going to talk to his pediatrician
> about it this week, but to hold me over until then -- have any of you
> had experience with lead paint? What did you have to do to fix it?
>
> We're renters in New York City, by the way, and our building is small
> enough that our landlady might not have to obey the regulations a
> larger building would be held to. The building is old enough that we
> should presume there's lead paint there, and it's peeling in places.
I don't know how much the size of the building matters, but it would
likely be a hardship for you if she were to be required to abate the
lead, because you'd probably have to move, at least for awhile. But
of course if it comes to that, it comes to that!
When my older daughter turned one her blood tested above the limits of
acceptable lead, and I totally freaked out. Luckily she was just over
the limit and we had a neighbor who had just completed the state
course in lead abatement, and he let me borrow his textbooks to look
over.
It's really scary, but in our case, it turned out to be very fixable.
We got a HEPA vac, and I started dusting with trisodium phosphate --
you can buy it in painting stores (i.e. Home Depot) or, some powdered
dishwasher detergent works, too (it's not straight Trisodium
phosphate, but it has enough) -- read the labels. You have to make a
solution of at least 5% of the soap, with water, and use it to
wet-dust your house, especially any painted surfaces.
I did this for a couple of months, and when she was retested, she was
totally fine. This was in 2000 and my neighbor told me they were
dropping the acceptable level to '5' later that year (it was '10). I
don't know if this is federally acceptable or just in Ohio -- in any
case, try to remember that as scary as it sounds if you suspect
there's a problem, my daughter's level was '12', and it dropped to '2'
after the measures I listed above. So she'd even have been fine with
the new numbers. My younger daughter tested at '3', and we haven't
really kept up with the special dusting like we should be. But
anyway, kids come into the hospital with numbers like '80' and '100',
sometimes. They really are intentionally eating a lot of paint. In
most cases, unless you see your child eat a big hunk of paint, it's
probably manageable without tearing the building apart.
Tina.
Rosalie B.
I'm glad that your children's blood leads have dropped. I have to
emphasize though - NO LEVEL OF LEAD IN THE BLOOD IS NORMAL OR ALL
RIGHT. LEAD SHOULD NOT BE PRESENT IN THE BLOOD IN ANY AMOUNT!!!!
If they do chelation or something like that, the lead can be driven
into the bones, where it will lurk until something makes it come back
out.
thumper
DS's blood lead level was 7 at 1yo, with 5 being the number that makes
bells ring. The pedi said if it had been 10 an inspector would be
sent to the house. Being a paranoid mom, I got one anyway. He spent
about 4 hours with me testing the house. The places that came up
positive for me were the window sashes and exterior paint. He told me
that paint in good condition in places that don't get any wear (like a
wall) he wouldn't worry about, but window sashes rub every time they
are raised or lowered. I have all new windows now, LOL. I am sure it
was the windows, as ds loved to pull himself up on the window sills
and could stand there forever looking out.
Some things he told me to do:
-wash the baby's hands a lot.
-don't dust or vacuum the windows dry. He did mention TSP, as did web
sites etc that I found, but he said even using water would be fine.
Also, hepa filtered vacuums are good, but it sounded like a really
good one was really expensive, not the ones you can buy anywhere, so
that the filter surface area would be big enough
-those test kits you can get at home depot are reliable, but he said
people get a positive rxn and don't believe the test. I got a
negative on some peeling paint and didn't believe the test.
My bathtub also tested positive, which he said was common in tubs from
that era painted unusual colors (it's from the 1950s, sort of a
grayish blue). But he wasn't concerned about it, although he
suggested not using any abrasive cleansers. The garage door needs to
be removed as do the shutters and doors leading outside of the house.
Oh, a big thing was some miniblinds that DH had installed about 15
years ago-there was a big deal about that a few years ago, as some
blinds were painted with lead paint that deteriorated in the sun,
leaving lead dust all over them.
I hope I didn't scare you; I think it's great that you're concerned
and thinking about it. Good luck, I hope it turns out nothing to be
worried about. Your landlady may not get off easy even with a small
place, either.
Take care,
Lisa
chiam margalit
> now that Ollie's crawling and picking things up off the floor (and
> eating them), I'm concerned. I'm going to talk to his pediatrician
> about it this week, but to hold me over until then -- have any of you
> had experience with lead paint? What did you have to do to fix it?
I don't rent in NYC so I don't know the laws, but I do know them
intimately in MA, as a former landlord and a former renter who had to
delead my house. It is NOT a small matter and you MUST have
professional deleaders do the work. You cannot do it yourself, by law,
and because it's so dangerous. If your house is older than 1970, you
probably have lead paint on the woodwork. In MA, to delead a home
entails removing *every* bit of woodwork inside a unit and replacing
it with new woodwork, or professionally stripped woodwork. Most people
choose to replace the windows because double-hung sashes are so hard
to delead. It's what I did in my home.
The process usually takes 3-5 days per unit. The family has to move
*everything* to the middle of the room, cover *everything* with tarps,
and then find a place to live while the unit is being deleaded. Just
so you'll be prepared.
My feeling is, MA law is extremely strict, probably moreso than any
other state. Any unit with children under 6 years old MUST be
deleaded. So in essence, landlords will not rent to people with
children or charge a premium to rent deleaded units. It's against the
law not to rent to people with children, but it's almost impossible to
enforce this law since most apartments are in duplexes or triple
deckers, and those are protected by different rental laws than bigger
buildings.
Contact your tenants union (I know NY has a big and active one) and
read the lead paint laws. In MA, your landlord *cannot* evict you for
6 months if you complain to the health department about lead. The
health department will come and test all the surfaces for lead and
will give you, the tenant, a lead report. It will also force the
landlord to delead. But...the corresponding issue is, do you want to
antagonize your landlord? Deleading can cost up to $20K per unit in
older homes with a lot of woodwork. In wooden houses, deleading must
take place both inside and out, and that means cleaning the foundation
dirt around the home. It's a HUGE undertaking, and very costly.
FWIW, my son had a higher lead reading when he was 2-5 years old, at
around 10. Not dangerously high, but higher than it was supposed to
be. Since we deleaded when he was 4 and the lead levels didn't go down
quickly, we suspected lead in the very old pipes. I think we were
right. To avoid lead in your water, use filtration systems but
*always* run the water for about a minute before you fill any glass,
pot, or pan with drinkable water. And never use hot water to cook or
drink with.
Good luck,
Marjorie
Tina
> gob...@aol.com (Tina) wrote:
>
> I'm glad that your children's blood leads have dropped. I have to
> emphasize though - NO LEVEL OF LEAD IN THE BLOOD IS NORMAL OR ALL
> RIGHT. LEAD SHOULD NOT BE PRESENT IN THE BLOOD IN ANY AMOUNT!!!!
>
> If they do chelation or something like that, the lead can be driven
> into the bones, where it will lurk until something makes it come back
> out.
>
I'm not going to shout, like you did, but I really feel like it.
However, I'm going to attempt politeness.
In no way did I indicate that any level of lead in the blood was
normal, or naturally occuring (I may have said my daughters levels
were called 'normal', but that's a nurse or Dr. reading from a lab
report that says either 'normal' or 'abnormal'.) . Certainly, lead
*should* not be present in the blood in any amount. Perhaps you live
in a rural area, but I do not, nor does the original poster.
According to the materials used to teach lead abatement in my state
(copyright 2000), it is not at all unusual for people, especially
those living in urban areas, to have small amounts of lead in their
blood. I noticed (and had removed) a large object with peeling lead
paint at a children's park in my city. It was an antique, and is in
that way also not an unusual occurence (decorative antiques). Paint
in houses is not the only way children are exposed to lead.
People would do very well to realize that in some cases, the price we
pay for living where and how we do is possibly, in some cases, a lead
level of 2 or 3. There was not, as of 2000, any indication in any of
the state published materials or anything I was able to find in
public, showing that levels under 5 do any damage to children
whatsoever.
Chelation therapy is stressful on the body and is no longer done
unless levels are extremely high. Though our Dr. did call us to tell
us about the level, no recommendation was made for any therapies or
drugs, because it wasn't necessary. Of course, she (the Dr.)
understands that levels that low do not indicate a major problem.
Also, my neighbor (the one currently state certified in lead
abatement) looked around our house and advised us against having an
inspector in. Our paint is in good condition, and didn't present a
clear danger to any member of our household, in his well trained
opinion. Additionally, he told us that even if the paint isn't
peeling, if you have a state inspector in and he finds lead based
paint, he could potentially require you to not only abate the lead
paint, but also hire state contractors to do it, pay hazardous waste
disposal fees, move out for several months, replace all your
furniture, and basically render your house unsellable forever -- and
that's even if no one is lead poisoned. There are a lot of ridiculous
things involved in the lead paint abatement situation currently, and
even though lead is not a natural component of our blood, it's also
not one that at the levels I'm talking about, is going to hurt
*anyone*.
Better you save your ire for the parents whose children are eating
lead based paint, who don't get their blood tested and then when they
enter Kindergarten, are found to be non-functional, with lead levels
of 100, rather than me, who did every bit of research she could,
literally the minute my daughter's blood tests came back, and got
things under control very quicly, had her retested at my own request
(the Dr. thought it was unnecessary), and will continue to do so.
Yes, certainly, I'd have abated my house if it was the actual problem
-- but there's no way to know if it was. Sure, I'd have taken my
daughter for Chelation therapy as soon as a medical professional
suggested it would be beneficial -- but in our case (and most others)
it was not. What I would not do is unnecessarily frighten half the
parents in this group with an accusatory post using possibly misstated
information. [No one has suggested that lead is normal in blood -- the
whole point of this thread was, I thought, to talk to people who had
dealt with this situation. The Doctors have a level that they refer
to as 'normal' because anything above that is abnormal. It doesn't
mean natural. Chelation therapy is not reccomended for levels like
we're discussing.]
Tina.
Rosalie B.
>Rosalie B. <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<pjmqbvsjo4h8ls4e0...@4ax.com>...
>> gob...@aol.com (Tina) wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm glad that your children's blood leads have dropped. I have to
>> emphasize though - NO LEVEL OF LEAD IN THE BLOOD IS NORMAL OR ALL
>> RIGHT. LEAD SHOULD NOT BE PRESENT IN THE BLOOD IN ANY AMOUNT!!!!
>>
>> If they do chelation or something like that, the lead can be driven
>> into the bones, where it will lurk until something makes it come back
>> out.
>>
>
>I'm not going to shout, like you did, but I really feel like it.
>However, I'm going to attempt politeness.
>
I was using capitols for emphasis. That is not rude.
>In no way did I indicate that any level of lead in the blood was
>normal, or naturally occuring (I may have said my daughters levels
>were called 'normal', but that's a nurse or Dr. reading from a lab
>report that says either 'normal' or 'abnormal'.) . Certainly, lead
>*should* not be present in the blood in any amount. Perhaps you live
>in a rural area, but I do not, nor does the original poster.
The medical community's way of referring to normal vs abnormal is very
misleading. It ISN'T normal. It is just below levels that are
currently considered acceptable.
I do live in a rural area now, but in a 150 year old house. But I
lived in Baltimore for years and that's where I was born and brought
up. From the time I was in kindergarten to 8th grade I lived in a
house which was at least 100 years old - it was the original farmhouse
of the district.
>According to the materials used to teach lead abatement in my state
>(copyright 2000), it is not at all unusual for people, especially
>those living in urban areas, to have small amounts of lead in their
>blood. I noticed (and had removed) a large object with peeling lead
>paint at a children's park in my city. It was an antique, and is in
>that way also not an unusual occurence (decorative antiques). Paint
>in houses is not the only way children are exposed to lead.
People can be exposed to lead in many ways. Airborne lead in dust
from renovation of old buildings, lead fume from hot work (welding,
brazing, cutting) of lead containing metals, lead in the soil from
having lead bearing paint scraped and the dust and flakes fall into
the soil and be incorporated and perhaps used to grow vegetables,
using or working in a firing range (guns), making leaded glass,
running an old fashioned linotype machine, lead in water from actual
pipes made of lead (like the Romans used to do it) or from lead solder
in copper pipes (all of the schools in Washington DC are supposed to
be using bottled water because the water is lead contaminated),
recycling or repairing automobile radiators, repainting autos or
school buses (the pigment in yellow paint is often lead chromate) --
the list is almost endless.
Interior painting of houses with lead based paints was outlawed in
about 1950, but lead in paint didn't go away magically at that time.
There was too much of the infrastructure that still had lead paint on
it, and it was only interior paint that was affected. I did an
inspection of a paint factory c 1999 and they still were making some
(safety yellow) paint with lead pigment at that time.
I know that amounts of blood in people's blood is not unusual. There
was a study done of the children who lived near the Mystic River
Bridge in CT vs other children who lived 50 blocks farther away at a
time when the bridge was being renovated. Bridges were normally
painted with very heavily leaded paint. Lead in paint being used on
metal has a lot to recommend it from an engineering POV - it expands
and contracts with the underlying metal so is much more likely to
protect the metal and less likely to fail. In any case, the children
who lived and played within a couple of blocks of the bridge were
found to have significantly higher (dangerous) lead levels than the
ones who were 50 blocks away in the same city who did not have any or
had very low lead levels.
>People would do very well to realize that in some cases, the price we
>pay for living where and how we do is possibly, in some cases, a lead
>level of 2 or 3. There was not, as of 2000, any indication in any of
>the state published materials or anything I was able to find in
>public, showing that levels under 5 do any damage to children
>whatsoever.
That's because almost the only kind of studies that can be done of
such a thing are cohort studies. You can't use actual children as
guinea pigs, nor can you divide a child in half and expose only half
of him to lead and use the other half as a control. Even cohort
studies have a difficult time eliminating other factors.
>
>Chelation therapy is stressful on the body and is no longer done
>unless levels are extremely high. Though our Dr. did call us to tell
>us about the level, no recommendation was made for any therapies or
>drugs, because it wasn't necessary. Of course, she (the Dr.)
>understands that levels that low do not indicate a major problem.
>
Chelation is not a good idea IMHO - I know that it is stressful, but
the reason I think it isn't a good idea is that it doesn't work
especially well. It is supposed to 'flush' the lead out of the body.
I think that what it really does is force it into the bones.
>Also, my neighbor (the one currently state certified in lead
>abatement) looked around our house and advised us against having an
>inspector in. Our paint is in good condition, and didn't present a
That's not because you should not have done the lead abatement but
because he didn't want to cause you expense and he probably thought
that if you took steps that you'd be OK.
>clear danger to any member of our household, in his well trained
>opinion. Additionally, he told us that even if the paint isn't
>peeling, if you have a state inspector in and he finds lead based
>paint, he could potentially require you to not only abate the lead
>paint, but also hire state contractors to do it, pay hazardous waste
As they should.
>disposal fees, move out for several months, replace all your
>furniture, and basically render your house unsellable forever -- and
You can not protect soft furnishings from lead contamination in a lead
abatement project. Marjorie is quite right
>that's even if no one is lead poisoned. There are a lot of ridiculous
>things involved in the lead paint abatement situation currently, and
>even though lead is not a natural component of our blood, it's also
>not one that at the levels I'm talking about, is going to hurt
>*anyone*.
I disagree. I did industrial health inspections for 14 years, but I
also am aware of actual cases - a friend of mine, also a CIH, did his
own home renovation fortunately before he moved his wife and children
in. He inadvertently got himself lead intoxicated, and this guy was
someone who SHOULD have known better and actually worked for the
Maryland Department of the Environment (the state EPA organization
which had the oversight of lead abatement contractors).
Also, I've interviewed the guys who are supposed to have gone through
the lead abatement training. I've watched how they fit their
respirators. I know what people actually do when they think they can
get away with it.
>
>Better you save your ire for the parents whose children are eating
>lead based paint, who don't get their blood tested and then when they
>enter Kindergarten, are found to be non-functional, with lead levels
>of 100, rather than me, who did every bit of research she could,
>literally the minute my daughter's blood tests came back, and got
>things under control very quicly, had her retested at my own request
>(the Dr. thought it was unnecessary), and will continue to do so.
I agree that you were very proactive. Unfortunately, the folks who
are the ones like you are talking about are unlikely to be reading
this newsgroup or even be aware that there is a problem. Perhaps
because they were lead poisoned in their youth.
>
>Yes, certainly, I'd have abated my house if it was the actual problem
>-- but there's no way to know if it was. Sure, I'd have taken my
>daughter for Chelation therapy as soon as a medical professional
>suggested it would be beneficial -- but in our case (and most others)
>it was not. What I would not do is unnecessarily frighten half the
Chelation isn't IMHO a good solution as I've said.
>parents in this group with an accusatory post using possibly misstated
>information. [No one has suggested that lead is normal in blood -- the
>whole point of this thread was, I thought, to talk to people who had
>dealt with this situation. The Doctors have a level that they refer
>to as 'normal' because anything above that is abnormal. It doesn't
>mean natural. Chelation therapy is not reccomended for levels like
>we're discussing.]
I was trying to keep people from taking the lead problem lightly. I
had to have my blood lead tested annually as a part of my job. I was
living in the city, in houses that were built well before the lead ban
went into effect for residential construction, I was doing inspections
of work areas where there was a high level of lead contamination (I
was at a bridge job once and when I got home I took a wipe sample on
the hood of my car which was parked several blocks away and it showed
a large amount of lead dust), at the beginning of that time I was
using leaded gasoline in my cars, and yet I never showed any level of
blood lead in my blood.
I applaud the measures you took. Except for doing actual lead
abatement on your house (after moving the furniture first), I think
you did everything right. Your child probably hasn't been harmed in
any measurable way.
But I'm NOT scaremongering and I wasn't being rude.
Hillary Israeli
Sara <que_sa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
*Somehow I'd managed to not think about the paint in our apartment, but
*now that Ollie's crawling and picking things up off the floor (and
*eating them), I'm concerned. I'm going to talk to his pediatrician
*about it this week, but to hold me over until then -- have any of you
*had experience with lead paint? What did you have to do to fix it?
*
*We're renters in New York City, by the way, and our building is small
See http://www.nmic.org/nyccelp/documents/LL38-1pager.pdf
Also http://www.nmic.org/nyccelp.htm
--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net in...@hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)
CBI
"Tina" <gob...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3614c5bc.03051...@posting.google.com...
> pay for living where and how we do is possibly, in some cases, a lead
> level of 2 or 3. There was not, as of 2000, any indication in any of
> the state published materials or anything I was able to find in
> public, showing that levels under 5 do any damage to children
> whatsoever.
Actually there is literature that suggests that there is no threshold effect
(i.e above a certain line starts to affect things) and that the effects are
linear, presumably down to zero. I agree that at 2 or 3 the effects are
likely to be extraordinarily difficult to detect and could reasonably be
seen as the price you pay for where you live.
> Chelation therapy is stressful on the body and is no longer done
> unless levels are extremely high. Though our Dr. did call us to tell
> us about the level, no recommendation was made for any therapies or
> drugs, because it wasn't necessary. Of course, she (the Dr.)
> understands that levels that low do not indicate a major problem.
Mostly the issue is that the lead is stored in bones and other tissues (not
driven into them by the chelation) and so the chelation therapy will not
clear most of it as it only binds to what is floating free in the blood. If
the lead levels are very high it is worth it to try to increase excretion of
it through chelators (the drug binds the lead and then you pee it out) but
even after the levels go down to more "accpetable" levels the blood needs to
be monitored for a rebound due to either incomplete removal from the
environment or leaching from the bones.
> The Doctors have a level that they refer
> to as 'normal' because anything above that is abnormal. It doesn't
> mean natural.
I prefer the term "acceptable" for the reasons you guys cite.
--
CBI
CBI
"Rosalie B." <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:5ddsbvsrc8ki69l9f...@4ax.com...
> The medical community's way of referring to normal vs abnormal is very
> misleading. It ISN'T normal. It is just below levels that are
> currently considered acceptable.
Unfortunately, the lab sheets come preprentied and then the labs are typed
in over them. Most of them have "normal" and "abnormal" columns or flags and
everything gets fit into this no matter what the situation. While the column
that the number appears in may be the normal or abnormal one I don't think
you will find many professionals calling any amount of lead normal.
--
CBI
CBI
"CBI" <00...@mindspring.com *must have "Re:" in subject*> wrote in message
news:b9lje7$hbc$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
>
>
> "Rosalie B." <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:5ddsbvsrc8ki69l9f...@4ax.com...
>
> > The medical community's way of referring to normal vs abnormal is very
> > misleading. It ISN'T normal. It is just below levels that are
> > currently considered acceptable.
>
> Unfortunately, the lab sheets come preprentied
In addition to being preprentied they are also preprinted.
Sara
(lots o' good stuff)
> But...the corresponding issue is, do you want to
> antagonize your landlord?
Sigh. No. We're on good terms and would like to stay that way. I'm
trying to find a way to get the paint dealt with that she can afford.
and not involving the city.
I talked to her about it yesterday and it sounds like she's willing to
get professionals in to handle the places where the paint is peeling,
which -- I believe, correct me if I'm wrong -- should take care of the
problem so long as we keep an eye out for fresh cracks.
Thanks to all who responded!
--
Sara, accompanied by the baby barnacle
Rosalie B.
I know the kind of thing you mean. Thank you for explaining the
chelation thing which I haven't had to do fortunately. Most of my
knowledge about it comes from doing lead training where I tell the
guys not to try to self-chelate.
I read about a child who had one of the highest amounts of lead they
ever saw where the child did not die of it. She was chelated, and
then the medical people lost track of her. They found her again when
she became pregnant at 15. The pregnancy apparently caused the lead
to come out of where it had been stored in her bones. And that
happened again for subsequent children that she had.
My boss's boss had gone to a state police firing range and was invited
to try some of the weapons, which he did. The next day he went to
have his occupational physical, and he showed high blood lead levels
(somewhere IIRC between 25 and 40). He was somewhat embarrassed.
grandma Rosalie
CBI
"Rosalie B." <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:t31tbvkbuobin2brr...@4ax.com...
>
> I read about a child who had one of the highest amounts of lead they
> ever saw where the child did not die of it. She was chelated, and
> then the medical people lost track of her. They found her again when
> she became pregnant at 15. The pregnancy apparently caused the lead
> to come out of where it had been stored in her bones. And that
> happened again for subsequent children that she had.
>
That's what I was talking about. Most of the lead in the body is in the
bones. Chelation only binds the lead in the blood. After chelation therapy
they are supposed to keep rechecking the levels for long periods of time to
make sure that they don't go up. Any stress that increases the turnover of
bone, like providing calcuim during pregnancy, may increase the release of
lead.
--
CBI
Hillary Israeli
Rosalie B. <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
*The medical community's way of referring to normal vs abnormal is very
*misleading. It ISN'T normal. It is just below levels that are
*currently considered acceptable.
In no way do I attempt to speak for the medical community. However, I did
study doctoral level clinical laboratory medicine, and I was instructed
(by various people including the doctor in charge of the clinical lab at
the veterinary hospital at Penn, and the doctor in charge of the clinical
lab at the Hospital of the U of PA, and the director of a nearby
commercial laboratory) that "normal" reference ranges are defined by
taking the mean value +/- 2 standard deviations - so, by definition, 5% of
normal patients are outside the "normal" reference range. Assuming that I
can safely extrapolate to the way the rest of the medical community does
it - I have to say, I don't find it misleading at all.
Irene
> chiam margalit wrote:
>
> (lots o' good stuff)
>
> > But...the corresponding issue is, do you want to
> > antagonize your landlord?
>
> Sigh. No. We're on good terms and would like to stay that way. I'm
> trying to find a way to get the paint dealt with that she can afford.
> and not involving the city.
>
> I talked to her about it yesterday and it sounds like she's willing to
> get professionals in to handle the places where the paint is peeling,
> which -- I believe, correct me if I'm wrong -- should take care of the
> problem so long as we keep an eye out for fresh cracks.
Good luck with all of this. Before I get started, I will mention that
I'm an architect with a Master's specializing in Historic
Preservation. However, since I graduated, I haven't been working in
HP, so much of my information is research-based and I am not up on
current research and/or regulations. So, with that caveat in mind...
One possibility for protecting yourself and baby from peeling lead
paint is to encapsulate it - cover it up with a layer of wallboard, so
you can't get exposed to the paint. This may or may not be practical,
depending on how much area is involved. Eventually someone else may
need to remove it, but as everyone has pointed out, that is a HUGE
job. Remember that just painting over the lead paint is not enough -
especially since any sanding to prep the surface will get lead dust
into the air - precisely what you want to avoid.
(Friends of mine bought an old house, and did major renovations. They
wouldn't let us visit, because they were worried about the peeling
lead paint. Since ds was about 4 months old and not mobile at the
time, I tried to point out that he really wasn't in any danger from a
short visit when I would hold him the entire time. They decided to be
cautious, so I never got to see the 'before'. Oh, well...)
Irene
Mom to Thomas 7/01
CBI
"Hillary Israeli" <hil...@hillary.net> wrote in message
news:slrnbbtnou....@manx.misty.com...
> In <5ddsbvsrc8ki69l9f...@4ax.com>,
> Rosalie B. <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> *The medical community's way of referring to normal vs abnormal is very
> *misleading. It ISN'T normal. It is just below levels that are
> *currently considered acceptable.
>
> In no way do I attempt to speak for the medical community. However, I did
> study doctoral level clinical laboratory medicine, and I was instructed
> (by various people including the doctor in charge of the clinical lab at
> the veterinary hospital at Penn, and the doctor in charge of the clinical
> lab at the Hospital of the U of PA, and the director of a nearby
> commercial laboratory) that "normal" reference ranges are defined by
> taking the mean value +/- 2 standard deviations - so, by definition, 5% of
> normal patients are outside the "normal" reference range. Assuming that I
> can safely extrapolate to the way the rest of the medical community does
> it - I have to say, I don't find it misleading at all.
It also means that at times "normal" (which we now know to mean something
closer to average) can be a moving target, subject to change over time and
location, and is not necessarily ideal. Cholesterol and lead being two
great examples.
What does get confusing is when labs start to substitute
recommended/ideal/desirable ranges for normal without being explicit.
BTW (esoterica that I find interesting) - if there is a 5% chance of each
number being abnormal based on chance alone then if you run 11 tests the
odds are that one will be out of range even if you are totally healthy.
--
CBI
chiam margalit
> Sara <que_sa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<que_sara_sara-417...@news.fu-berlin.de>...
> > chiam margalit wrote:
> >
> > (lots o' good stuff)
> >
> > > But...the corresponding issue is, do you want to
> > > antagonize your landlord?
> >
> > Sigh. No. We're on good terms and would like to stay that way. I'm
> > trying to find a way to get the paint dealt with that she can afford.
> > and not involving the city.
> >
> > I talked to her about it yesterday and it sounds like she's willing to
> > get professionals in to handle the places where the paint is peeling,
> > which -- I believe, correct me if I'm wrong -- should take care of the
> > problem so long as we keep an eye out for fresh cracks.
>
> Good luck with all of this. Before I get started, I will mention that
> I'm an architect with a Master's specializing in Historic
> Preservation. However, since I graduated, I haven't been working in
> HP, so much of my information is research-based and I am not up on
> current research and/or regulations. So, with that caveat in mind...
I'm not an architect but I wish I was. :-) I don't even play one on
TV, either.
But, your idea of encapsulation reminded me of something I hadn't
thought of in years. There used to be an art gallery in a town I used
to live in, housed in a gorgeous 18th century federalist. The house
was completely restored, but the didn't remove the lead. Instead, they
put plexiglass/lucite strips over every single windowsill, which would
be easily wiped down. They also used central air so the windows never
were opened or closed. A friend worked at the gallery and I remember
commenting on what a great idea it was, and how much cheaper it was
than dealing with lead removal.
Just a thought.
Marjorie
Irene
> > I'm an architect with a Master's specializing in Historic
> > Preservation. However, since I graduated, I haven't been working in
> > HP, so much of my information is research-based and I am not up on
> > current research and/or regulations. So, with that caveat in mind...
>
> I'm not an architect but I wish I was. :-) I don't even play one on
> TV, either.
Hee, hee!
>
> But, your idea of encapsulation reminded me of something I hadn't
> thought of in years. There used to be an art gallery in a town I used
> to live in, housed in a gorgeous 18th century federalist. The house
> was completely restored, but the didn't remove the lead. Instead, they
> put plexiglass/lucite strips over every single windowsill, which would
> be easily wiped down. They also used central air so the windows never
> were opened or closed. A friend worked at the gallery and I remember
> commenting on what a great idea it was, and how much cheaper it was
> than dealing with lead removal.
>
The plexiglass idea is great for something that you want to display.
Of course, if you have peeling paint, you may not want to keep it on
display! <g> The point about opening/closing windows is also a good
one, tho if the paint is in good condition, it would seem to be less
of an issue. I used gypsum board as an example mainly because it's
readily available, easy to paint, etc.
Irene