When did daycares become "schools"?
P. Tierney
year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"? If so, why? Are
the parents trying to make themselves feel better about where their
kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up in some way?
I don't get it. I've never heard a parent with a similar aged child
at home saying that she/he was "homeschooling" their kid, so I'm
wondering why daycares, or the parents who send them there, do
the same. Or, maybe they don't where you live. But in my mind,
"school" begins at preschool, which is around age four. LMK what
it's like to others. Thx.
P. Tierney
toypup
"P. Tierney" <silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:Dtsgb.510823$Oz4.369466@rwcrnsc54...
Because there is a difference in focus between the two and they do have
preschool for very young kids. My friend took her child out of daycare and
placed her in preschool at 18 months. I think the difference was the
emphasis on academics and learning. The child would come home with finished
art projects and such, but she didn't do the projects herself, obviously.
Mostly, they cut out a shape for her and she scribbled over it or decorated
it with stickers. My friend's reason for doing it was because she wanted
her daughter to be stimulated academically. At the daycare, she was just
playing. There was no attempt at teaching her anything like they would in
preschool. I happen to think kids get a lot out of playing at that age.
Needless to say, DS (2yo) is still in daycare.
Clisby
I don't have the idea that preschool is for 4-year-olds; it's for
children who are "pre-school" age (i.e., younger than 5), and there's
some sort of curriculum/learning plan going on. For example, there is a
Montessori curriculum for children starting at 18 months old, although
it's much more common for children to start a Montessori program at 2.5
- 3.
Also, and this is based just on my experience - the preschools I'm aware
of don't provide day-long care like a daycare center. Typically a
child would go 3-4 hours a day, at most. At the one my son attends, a
1-year-old can go, at most, 3 mornings a week.
Clisby
Donna Metler
they do as "homeschooling"-maybe because there is a strong homeschool group
here, and many of the churches strongly support homeschooling.
I think the change started to happen when kindergarten became an academic
program, and therefore the learning which happened in kindergarten was
pushed lower. At this point, it is expected that a child will come into
kindergarten with group experience, which still seems wrong to me. A child
with only the half-day, three day a week preschool I had as a child would be
seen as being "under-prepared".
>
> P. Tierney
>
>
Banty
Around here many of the larger daycare centers (and even some of the smaller,
like the two-person family care my son went to) do preschool programs as part of
the daycare. It's a good sign actually, a reflection of the Early Childhood
Education degrees of a lot of the people who take this business up.
Banty
Sophie
My son goes to a preschool playgroup at a daycare center 3 mornings a week.
It's easier to tell him "hey you have school today" then "hey you have
preschool playgroup today". Plus his older (by 16 months) sister goes to
school (kindergarten) so he likes to think he goes to school too. I don't
see the harm in it. However if I worked and he was in daycare, I'd call it
daycare.
Technically we don't have preschool here. School's not mandatory I believe
in NC till 1st grade. Elementary schools here (where I live) start with
pre-Kindergarten for 4 yrs olds. They're pretty clear it's pre-K and not
preschool - the words are not interchangeable here for some reason.
Ruth Baltopoulos
"P. Tierney" <silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote:
: Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who
send their 1-3
: year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"? If so,
why? Are
: the parents trying to make themselves feel better about
where their
: kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up
in some way?
Ahhh, the burning question. Being in the family childcare
field, and having examined this question with great
intensity, I have a number of theories :) I can only speak
for the Boston, MA area, which is where I run my business,
and for family child cares as opposed to centers, as that is
my experience. As far as the 'daycares trying to pump
themselves up in some way', why would a child care wish to
do that if not for the parents (and that statement is
somewhat telling, btw <EG>)?
First of all, many of the parents *in my town* feel that
their children *must* be in some type of school by 2.9.
Regardless of the child's best interests, maturity,
happiness in current situation, etc. At 2.9, they will go
to preschool. There is much time spent discussing options,
who goes where and why, and if you are not sending your
child at 2.9, why on earth not?
Secondly, parents like to say that their child is in school.
Many of my clients refer to my program as school, and
encourage their children to call it that as well. Not my
doing, nor could I care in the least. I draw the line at
them referring to me as their teacher, or Miss Ruth :)
Thirdly, licensed family child care situations are expected
to have a schedule which includes age appropriate learning
activities that keep children stimulated and engaged. The
licensing requirements are constantly changing in this
respect, steering the FCCs toward a preschool mold. When
one becomes licensed or applies for relicensing, it is
necessary to outline your 'plan' for your daily program.
Fourthly, when a FCC becomes 'accredited' or 'certified'
with one of the national accreditation programs, you are
basically being forced into emulating a preschool setting in
order to be successful in completing the course. Many
family child care programs are resisting being jammed into
the preschool mold, but if you have any interest in seeking
these optional accreditations and certifications, this is
the direction you are sent in.
Fifthly, in a business sense, since most of the parents are
so school focused, FCC settings need to offer a preschool
component in order to remain competitive. Many of the
preschools are now offering full day programs and accepting
infants. This is cutting into a large segment of the
population of children that would normally go to a FCC.
I believe that most of the above would apply to the larger
daycare centers as well.
: I don't get it. I've never heard a parent with a
similar aged child
: at home saying that she/he was "homeschooling" their kid,
so I'm
: wondering why daycares, or the parents who send them
there, do
: the same. Or, maybe they don't where you live. But in my
mind,
: "school" begins at preschool, which is around age four.
LMK what
: it's like to others. Thx.
Do keep in mind that some of us in the FCC field have
children in our programs until they attend kindergarten.
School begins at 2.9 in my town, so it behooves anyone that
cares for children to include a preschool component in their
program.
Ruth B
Naomi Pardue
>year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"?
At that age, I think it's more for the kids. Little kids like to think
themselves 'grown-up' and 'going to school.'
For the slightely older preschool kids (and would include the 3 years olds, and
probably the older 2's as well), any decent daycare is going to include some
preschool-type curriculum anyway, so the line between a 'daycare' and a
'preschool' once you get past the infant stage is pretty vague.
Naomi
CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator
(either remove spamblock or change address to npa...@indiana.edu to e-mail
reply.)
Naomi Pardue
>"school" begins at preschool, which is around age four. LMK what
>it's like to others. Thx.
Missed this part. The preschools where I sent Shaina all started at 3 or 2
1/2. The preschool where I work takes kids from 18 months. (Though the
curriculum for the youngest kids [the under 2's] is minimal -- lots of free
play and some story time.)
Chookie
"P. Tierney" <silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote:
> Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their 1-3
> year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"?
Are you in the US? I ask because it took years to wean our (American)
minister away from calling University "school". Presumably it's a word that
in American English is increasing in scope to cover any place where you send
your child for education and enrichment.
--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)
"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc
Ruth Baltopoulos
"Donna Metler" <dmme...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:qOwgb.51798$k17....@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
: I think the change started to happen when kindergarten
became an academic
: program, and therefore the learning which happened in
kindergarten was
: pushed lower. At this point, it is expected that a child
will come into
: kindergarten with group experience, which still seems
wrong to me. A child
: with only the half-day, three day a week preschool I had
as a child would be
: seen as being "under-prepared".
I have pondered upon what factors might have precipitated
the push toward schooling at a younger and younger age, and
the above explanation sounds reasonable. There are children
in my town beginning a half-day Kindergarten program with
*three years* of full-day preschool under their belts! It
seems excessive and makes me wonder exactly what might be
new for them in Kindergarten.
When my clients/friends/family ask me about preschools, I
tell them to examine their reasons for making the change.
You would be surprised at the lack of concrete reasoning
behind the impending transition. Many parents don't have
any idea *why* they are putting their children into
preschool at 2.9, other than it has become the norm. This
is the part that I find disturbing, particularly if it is
not a positive or necessary move for the child. Many two
working parent families operate on a certain amount of
guilt, and I feel that this may drive some of the decisions
regarding their children's daily environment. This coupled
with the 'all children should start preschool at 2.9'
mindset............
I put my own two children into a 3 morning a week program
one year prior to Kindergarten because they had such a
difficult time separating from me. I was not necessarily
interested in the curriculum aspect, but felt that they
needed the socialization.
--
Ruth B -- Remove the blinders to send email :)
Stewie (reading the Bible): "My my, what a thumping good
read, lions eating Christians, people nailing each other to
two by fours. I'll say, you won't find that in Winnie the
Pooh."
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date:
10/6/2003
Sue
> year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"? If so, why?
Daycare is merely caring for your child, often times with no structured
activities to learn different skills (playing is learning though). School
otoh, has a structured day, often times have "lessons" that they focus on
and some of them start teaching numbers and ABC's and calendar. Most have
craft projects that they do during the day. Some parents switch over at
around 1-2 years old to start preparing them for real preschool or
kindergarten. I don't think of preschool starting at age four though.
Preschool here can start at 2 years of age. Often times preschool is only
2-3 days a week with only a 2-3 hours at a time. Daycare is more providing
care to those that work and will often times have after 5 o'clock care. And
finally, sometimes kids want to feel big and think that the daycare they go
to is school, so parents call it that. No biggie, imo.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)
I'm Just a Raggedy Ann in a Barbie Doll World...
Nevermind
shopping for care for my infant son, who is now 8. I personally found
it a turn-off.
I suspect that it's a reaction to all the bad press daycare gets,
e.g., "Dr. Laura" calling them "baby kennels." Daycares and parents
who use them feel they need to argue that daycare is somehow not only
acceptable but even beneficial to a child. I did have a friend tell me
that even if she didn't work, she'd put her 3 month old in daycare
anyway because "he needs the socialization." (Of course, 3 MOs do need
"socialization," but not institutional/daycare-style socialization.)
I wish parents could be educated about what children really do need at
the various stages of their development. Though science (including the
social sciences) cannot answer that definitively for all children at
all ages, it certainly can inform society's discussion more than it
currently seems to have. We need better and more easily available info
on what kind of stranger care is best for most kids at 3 months, 12
months, 2 years, etc. You hear that kids do just fine in daycare if
it's "high quality"--what does that mean specifically?
If parents think kids 1 to 3 need a school-type environment all day
long, then they clearly need more guidance when they go looking for
care. I know two different mothers who initially went shopping for
"educational" daycare for their infants who ended up very unhappy with
that model. One switched her child to an in-home care provider; the
other switched to a daycare that emphasized being touchy-feely-lovey
in their infant and toddler rooms. Luckily, these two were awake and
flexible enough to see their error and do what their babies needed.
"P. Tierney" <silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote in message news:<Dtsgb.510823$Oz4.369466@rwcrnsc54>...
Elizabeth Reid
Hmm. I do this, sometimes, and I hadn't really thought about it.
I guess my son's day care seems like a school in many ways - they
have lesson plans for each child, although of course at his age
it's not some sort of rigorous academic program, but more a set
of fun activities that emphasize things he might be ready to
start doing. It's *very* much like a school for the older kids
in the center, and I think that's part of it; it would seem sort
of weird if the same building and program was 'day care' when
you're 1 and then turns magically to 'school' when you're 3-4.
I don't think I'd ever tell another adult that my child's in
'school', though, because they'd probably misunderstand and
think he was older than he is. It's more something I say to
my son, i.e. "Are you ready to go to school and see your
fun teachers now?" Actually, I suspect that I call it school
partially because the folks that take care of the kids are
referred to as 'teachers'; I don't know if there's a friendlier,
less governmental-sounding term than 'day care providers'
that doesn't imply 'school'.
Beth
Sam 8/16/2002
Sue
> I have pondered upon what factors might have precipitated
> the push toward schooling at a younger and younger age, and
> the above explanation sounds reasonable. There are children
> in my town beginning a half-day Kindergarten program with
> *three years* of full-day preschool under their belts! It
> seems excessive and makes me wonder exactly what might be
> new for them in Kindergarten.
It's the parents. Today's parents have to have the smartest, gifted, avid
readers, and know how to read by age two, best kid on the block. Parent's
today can't seem to understand that play is learning. Most parent's push
their kids at an early age to learn and know everything before they even
enter school. Most parents today overschedule their kids, they have to have
piano lessons, soccer, swimming lessons at such an early age to prove that
they have the best kid. It's evidenced even in this newsgroup. The post on
what books to buy my four month old should clue you in that parents today
are pushing their kids. Lots of children are just not ready for it and are
losing out on their childhood because parents have to have the smartest kid.
It's pretty sad, imo.
Ilse Witch
> Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their 1-3
> year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"? If so, why? Are
> the parents trying to make themselves feel better about where their
> kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up in some way?
In our area we have seen a few daycares and a few schools for our DS,
and there was a clear difference. The schools would require even the
youngest children to participate in group activities at certain times,
even if they were not really interested. They had a more defined program
in teaching even the smallest kids math, reading and writing.
The daycares we saw had a daily schedule, but children were free to
play by themselves if they wanted to. They also offered some educational
activities, but on a free basis and not starting before the age of 2.
That's the main reason why we opted for the daycare.
--
-- I
mommy to DS (14m)
guardian of DH
EDD 05-17-2004
War doesn't decide who's right - only who's left
user
> Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their 1-3
> year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"? If so, why? Are
> the parents trying to make themselves feel better about where their
> kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up in some way?
>
We have a few friends who use daycare, and most usually refer
to them as "school", even when there's absolutely no structured
activities beyond snack and nap time. I know that in at least
one case, the parents do so because of their guilt at not being
home with their kids - the mother told me outright that it makes
her feel better. I can't speak for the others.
> I don't get it. I've never heard a parent with a similar aged child
> at home saying that she/he was "homeschooling" their kid, so I'm
> wondering why daycares, or the parents who send them there, do
> the same. Or, maybe they don't where you live. But in my mind,
> "school" begins at preschool, which is around age four. LMK what
> it's like to others. Thx.
One thing I've noticed around here is that nobody seems to use
the term "Nursery School" anymore. ;-) For me, the usual scheme of
things was Nursery School for the 2+ to 4 year old set, then
Preschool at 4+. But with the understanding that Nursery School
is almost strictly a socialization experience, with no academic
overtones. Preschool, on the other hand, would start work
As for home schooling - in practice, the people I know who
do it never actually say "homeschooling". It's always
something along the lines of "teaching my kids at home",
or some such.
Ruth Baltopoulos
: We have a few friends who use daycare, and most usually
refer
: to them as "school", even when there's absolutely no
structured
: activities beyond snack and nap time. I know that in at
least
: one case, the parents do so because of their guilt at not
being
: home with their kids - the mother told me outright that it
makes
: her feel better. I can't speak for the others.
I assume that you are referring to a daycare center? Is it
really possible to entertain a group of children with
absolutely no structure other than snack and naptime? Could
it be possible that the program has a child driven day, with
an underlying structure that is not curriculum based?
Possibly flexible enough that it isn't overtly noticeable?
It would seem to me that any group setting with children and
'absolutely no structured activities' would be an exercise
in chaos :)
I do agree that working parents make certain choices based
on guilt. I am not sure the use of the word school is one
of them :) My feeling is that this usage is based more on
parental peer pressure, and children seeing other young
children going to 'school' and wanting their experience to
feel special. It is also an easier and quicker term than
'family child care' or 'daycare center'.
: One thing I've noticed around here is that nobody seems
to use
: the term "Nursery School" anymore. ;-) For me, the usual
scheme of
: things was Nursery School for the 2+ to 4 year old set,
then
: Preschool at 4+. But with the understanding that Nursery
School
: is almost strictly a socialization experience, with no
academic
: overtones. Preschool, on the other hand, would start work
Nursery School seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.
Everyone that I know refers to 'preschool', and the
experience starts at 2.9 hereabouts.
Banty
>
>I found this attitude in some daycares and parents back when I was
>shopping for care for my infant son, who is now 8. I personally found
>it a turn-off.
>
>I suspect that it's a reaction to all the bad press daycare gets,
>e.g., "Dr. Laura" calling them "baby kennels." Daycares and parents
>who use them feel they need to argue that daycare is somehow not only
>acceptable but even beneficial to a child. I did have a friend tell me
>that even if she didn't work, she'd put her 3 month old in daycare
>anyway because "he needs the socialization." (Of course, 3 MOs do need
>"socialization," but not institutional/daycare-style socialization.)
>
>I wish parents could be educated about what children really do need at
>the various stages of their development. Though science (including the
>social sciences) cannot answer that definitively for all children at
>all ages, it certainly can inform society's discussion more than it
>currently seems to have. We need better and more easily available info
>on what kind of stranger care is best for most kids at 3 months, 12
>months, 2 years, etc. You hear that kids do just fine in daycare if
>it's "high quality"--what does that mean specifically?
Stranger care is an intersting concept. How is it organized? Is there a number
of people lined up as a relay race, such that, as soon as the children and their
parents get acquainted with them, a new person comes in? Do the children go to
a new place every month, or do the new unaquainted people come in? Or does it
differ by stranger-care facility?
Please enlighten me.
Cheers,
Banty
Ruth Baltopoulos
>, Nevermind says...
: > <sniiip> We need better and more easily available info
: >on what kind of stranger care is best for most kids at 3
months, 12
: >months, 2 years, etc. You hear that kids do just fine in
daycare if
: >it's "high quality"--what does that mean specifically?
:
: Stranger care is an intersting concept. How is it
organized? Is there a number
: of people lined up as a relay race, such that, as soon as
the children and their
: parents get acquainted with them, a new person comes in?
Do the children go to
: a new place every month, or do the new unaquainted people
come in? Or does it
: differ by stranger-care facility?
Stranger care; now there is a new and totally tasteless term
for child care :)
user
> "user" <us...@iwantnospam.com> wrote:
>
>: We have a few friends who use daycare, and most usually
> refer
>: to them as "school", even when there's absolutely no
> structured
>: activities beyond snack and nap time. I know that in at
> least
>: one case, the parents do so because of their guilt at not
> being
>: home with their kids - the mother told me outright that it
> makes
>: her feel better. I can't speak for the others.
>
> I assume that you are referring to a daycare center? Is it
> really possible to entertain a group of children with
> absolutely no structure other than snack and naptime? Could
> it be possible that the program has a child driven day, with
> an underlying structure that is not curriculum based?
> Possibly flexible enough that it isn't overtly noticeable?
> It would seem to me that any group setting with children and
> 'absolutely no structured activities' would be an exercise
> in chaos :)
>
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "child driven day",
but if it refers to children wandering around the rooms,
randomly playing with toys, until called to order for
snacks, stories, or naps, then I guess that would cover
it. ;-)
I went to college whose primary purpose was the
education of teachers. As such, there were a half
dozen or so day care, nursery school, and pre-school
groups all in the building where I worked. Personally,
I could never tell the difference between the day care
and nursery schools, other than the length of time the
kids stayed. The preschool kids came into my
computer lab once a week, with worksheets that
described the actions they were to perform with some
of the educational software. I always thought it was
a bit silly to have the kids use a computer program to
help them learn that the same volume of water, for example,
poured into a fat container and a skinny container
would rise to different levels, instead of just
giving them a bucket and a tumbler, and letting them
try it themselves. ;-) But, if nothing else,
the preschool had some level of academic orientation.
> I do agree that working parents make certain choices based
> on guilt. I am not sure the use of the word school is one
> of them :) My feeling is that this usage is based more on
> parental peer pressure, and children seeing other young
> children going to 'school' and wanting their experience to
> feel special. It is also an easier and quicker term than
> 'family child care' or 'daycare center'.
>
>: One thing I've noticed around here is that nobody seems
> to use
>: the term "Nursery School" anymore. ;-) For me, the usual
> scheme of
>: things was Nursery School for the 2+ to 4 year old set,
> then
>: Preschool at 4+. But with the understanding that Nursery
> School
>: is almost strictly a socialization experience, with no
> academic
>: overtones. Preschool, on the other hand, would start work
>
> Nursery School seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.
> Everyone that I know refers to 'preschool', and the
> experience starts at 2.9 hereabouts.
Maybe it's a regional thing. When we were looking
for a place for my almost 3 yr old this year, most of
the groups for his age range advertised themselves as
nursery schools. "Preschools" were invariably
for 4 or 5 year olds.
Banty
>
>"Banty" <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>>, Nevermind says...
>: > <sniiip> We need better and more easily available info
>: >on what kind of stranger care is best for most kids at 3
>months, 12
>: >months, 2 years, etc. You hear that kids do just fine in
>daycare if
>: >it's "high quality"--what does that mean specifically?
>:
>: Stranger care is an intersting concept. How is it
>organized? Is there a number
>: of people lined up as a relay race, such that, as soon as
>the children and their
>: parents get acquainted with them, a new person comes in?
>Do the children go to
>: a new place every month, or do the new unaquainted people
>come in? Or does it
>: differ by stranger-care facility?
>
>Stranger care; now there is a new and totally tasteless term
>for child care :)
>--
>Ruth B -- Remove the blinders to send email :)
Oh, it's been out there for some time from anti-daycare people. "Little Johhhny
should be cared for by a looooving muh-uh->ahem< *parent* instead of
laaanguishing in STRANGER-care."
Banty
P. Tierney
"Donna Metler" <dmme...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> A child
> with only the half-day, three day a week preschool I had as a child would
be
> seen as being "under-prepared".
Gawd, that's scary.
P.
Tierney
P. Tierney
"toypup" <toyp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:oHsgb.696498$Ho3.153580@sccrnsc03...
Interesting. Though I have to wonder, at that age, if how large the
difference is between "teaching" and "playing". When my child does
the type of "art projects" (scribbling, mostly), that's "playing" to me,
even though learning is going on (as it always is).
It would be interesting, to me, to record the actions of the
kids and adults in a two year old "daycare" versus a "school"
and see just how different their days really are.
P.
Tierney
P. Tierney
"Naomi Pardue" <naomi...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20031007084312...@mb-m23.aol.com...
> > Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their 1-3
> >year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"?
>
> At that age, I think it's more for the kids. Little kids like to think
> themselves 'grown-up' and 'going to school.'
>
> For the slightely older preschool kids (and would include the 3 years
olds, and
> probably the older 2's as well), any decent daycare is going to include
some
> preschool-type curriculum anyway, so the line between a 'daycare' and a
> 'preschool' once you get past the infant stage is pretty vague.
That was my assumption about daycares as well. I have no first
hand knowledge, but I always assumed that even an average one
would have developmental toys and adults who interaction with
the kids in a way that isn't all that different, at this age, from
that of a teacher and a student.
P. Tierney
P. Tierney
"Chookie" <ehreb...@foulspambegone.com.au> wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-02745...@news-vip.optusnet.com.au...
> In article <Dtsgb.510823$Oz4.369466@rwcrnsc54>,
> "P. Tierney" <silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
> > Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their 1-3
> > year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"?
>
> Are you in the US?
Yes.
> I ask because it took years to wean our (American)
> minister away from calling University "school". Presumably it's a word
that
> in American English is increasing in scope to cover any place where you
send
> your child for education and enrichment.
Sorry about that! ;-)
P.
Tierney
P. Tierney
"user" <us...@iwantnospam.com> wrote
> >
> > Nursery School seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.
> > Everyone that I know refers to 'preschool', and the
> > experience starts at 2.9 hereabouts.
>
> Maybe it's a regional thing. When we were looking
> for a place for my almost 3 yr old this year, most of
> the groups for his age range advertised themselves as
> nursery schools. "Preschools" were invariably
> for 4 or 5 year olds.
I've not heard it used in my region in some time either.
P. Tierney
user
I've always suspected that upstate NY was in a time
warp, and I guess this confirms it. ;-)
Penny Gaines
<ehrebeniuk-02745...@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>:
> In article <Dtsgb.510823$Oz4.369466@rwcrnsc54>,
> "P. Tierney" <silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>> Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their 1-3
>> year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"?
>
> Are you in the US? I ask because it took years to wean our (American)
> minister away from calling University "school". Presumably it's a word
> that in American English is increasing in scope to cover any place where
> you send your child for education and enrichment.
I find it even wierder when they refer to "McDonalds University" with
a straight face.
--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three
jmorgan
"P. Tierney" wrote:
> Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their 1-3
> year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"? If so, why? Are
> the parents trying to make themselves feel better about where their
> kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up in some way?
>
>
In my area most people who work use a home-care setting for their under 2 or
2.5 year olds and then move them up to a preschool at around 2.5 or 3...in
my opinion from what I've seen, a preschool setting is *way* more preferable
for a 2-3 year old than a home-care setting in which teachers are also
trying to keep track of babies and small toddlers. Besides, many of the
preschools in my area (accredited) have a 'play' curriculum, meaning they
don't overtly introduce reading, writing, numbers, etc at all, its purely
exploratory and they take the kids lead in deciding what to learn about.
Although there are some 'private school prep' preschools that are really
academic and I've heard of parents pulling their 3 year olds out of the
preschool my daughter goes to (play curriculum, which I love and endorse)
because its not academic enough...now *thats* annoying.
cara
thumper
> year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"? If so, why? Are
> the parents trying to make themselves feel better about where their
> kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up in some way?
>
> at home saying that she/he was "homeschooling" their kid, so I'm
> wondering why daycares, or the parents who send them there, do
> the same. Or, maybe they don't where you live. But in my mind,
> "school" begins at preschool, which is around age four. LMK what
> it's like to others. Thx.
>
>
Well I called it "school" even when it was daycare, because it was an
easier word for DS to learn, no more ulterior motive than that! This
fall he started in a pre-school, where the children are 3-"young 5".
Since I work out of the house in the daytime, he is there longer than
a couple hours/day. It is very different from the previous daycare,
and rightly deserves to be called "school".
Take care,
Lisa
K, T, E & N
schools, but my DD's preschool has teachers with master's degrees in early
childhood development. An art major, early instructional P.E., a Spanish
teacher, a French teacher, and a music teacher.
Sounds like a school to me ...
Kim
Bruce and Jeanne
I used the term "school" when DD was in a daycare center not because I
was elevating daycare, but it was just verbal shorthand for a place
where some learning takes place. In my case, we've alway used "school"
to mean that. My father, who was a professor, used to say "I'm going to
school" instead of "I'm going to the university" when he went off to
work. "School" is a much softer and shorter word than "daycare" (or
"university").
That said, using "school" for daycare may mislead the child when they
actually do start preschool. When we switched DD into a Montessori
school when she was almost 3, it was definitely a big change in
environment that I'm not sure she expected.
Jeanne
Michelle Spina
We have one of those kids - who will have 3 years of preschool under
his belt before kindy. His b'day is in December, and the cutoffs have
all been moved to September 1 in our area. Why did we start preschool
at 2.9? Because he was SO very social, and was just dying for more
opportunities to play with other kids. That's it. It was 2 mornings a
week, for 2.5 hours. Hardly stressing in terms of scheduling his life
away. He LOVED it, from day 1. He's in his second year now (up to 3
mornings a week) and still absolutely loves it - it would be terrible
if we *didn't* provide this for him. His preschool is excellent - the
first year is essentially structured play. Some academic concepts were
introduced, but all through play. This year is a bit more academic,
and next year will be more so - it's all very age appropriate.
So not all of us with kids in preschool at 2.9 are as pathetic as you
describe. Some of us listen to our kids and try to determine how we
can best meet their needs and personalities. I thought that was a sign
of a *good* parent, but of course, you are free to feel otherwise. :-)
m.
dragonlady
Banty <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> Stranger care is an intersting concept. How is it organized? Is there a
> number
> of people lined up as a relay race, such that, as soon as the children and
> their
> parents get acquainted with them, a new person comes in? Do the children go
> to
> a new place every month, or do the new unaquainted people come in? Or does
> it
> differ by stranger-care facility?
>
> Please enlighten me.
>
> Cheers,
> Banty
>
It's already been a long week, and I really needed to laugh (especially
as I head out to vote in what has to be one of the more, um, interesting
exercises in democracy in California . . .)
So thanks.
meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
Banty
Hey I resemble that remark!
Ruth Baltopoulos
: In my area most people who work use a home-care setting
for their under 2 or
: 2.5 year olds and then move them up to a preschool at
around 2.5 or 3...in
: my opinion from what I've seen, a preschool setting is
*way* more preferable
: for a 2-3 year old than a home-care setting in which
teachers are also
: trying to keep track of babies and small toddlers.
Besides, many of the
: preschools in my area (accredited) have a 'play'
curriculum, meaning they
: don't overtly introduce reading, writing, numbers, etc at
all, its purely
: exploratory and they take the kids lead in deciding what
to learn about.
You see, this may be the type of stereotypical thinking that
is causing family child care or daycare centers to begin to
bill themselves as a school :) Perhaps the OP can see from
this statement why one would want to use the word school to
make it known that there is a structure and curriculum to
their program. Where once these types of child care
settings would normally have a population of 0 to 4 or 5
years of age, now parents (like this poster) feel that it is
only good for 0 to 2 years of age, and that a preschool is
*way* more preferable. Sweeping generalization that seems
to be more and more commonly accepted, and which possibly
precipitate the need for presenting ones self as a 'school'.
Many family child cares have a program that is almost
exactly like what you would find in any of the good
preschools, but on a smaller scale. What you have described
above pertaining to 'many of the preschools' in your area
describes my program exactly, as well as a goodly number of
my colleagues. Some parents carry on with the outdated
misconception that all FCCs and DCCs are the same, that they
don't provide structure or stimulation, and are only good
for infant through 2. Parents unceremoniously pop their
children out of these programs and hustle them off to
preschool at 2.9. The irony is that many of these children
that are made to endure yet another change in their small
lives were being exposed to basically the same type of
curriculum where they already were.
While there are a fair number of unlicensed (and I am sure
some licensed, to be fair) facilities around that are run by
those who don't mind being thought of as babysitters, most
are run by excellent professionals who strive to provide a
stimulating, happy, learning environment for children ages
0 - 5. BTW, not all preschools are fabulous simply because
they are preschools; just like not all FCCs are fab, or
DCCs, by virtue of being what they are :)
Another misconception is that one cannot run an effective
program for a mixed age group. This is simply not true. It
adds another layer of challenge, but it is not even close to
impossible. There is not a single activity that I do that I
can not adjust for infants, toddlers, preschoolers, and
school age children alike. One of the joys of a mixed age
group setting is helping the children learn to help each
other. There is nothing like watching a mixed age group
working on an activity, and seeing the older children
assisting the younger with the different components.
I have children in my group from 9 months up to about 6 or
7, as some of them join me for a time after their school
day. Many of the older children have been with me since
infancy. I am still in contact with almost all of my
parents that have remained in the area. I still plan
get-togethers with my clients, past and present. My first
full-time toddler client just went off to college. My type
of program is not uncommon in my area :)
: Although there are some 'private school prep' preschools
that are really
: academic and I've heard of parents pulling their 3 year
olds out of the
: preschool my daughter goes to (play curriculum, which I
love and endorse)
: because its not academic enough...now *thats* annoying.
Personally, I find it annoying as well. I still have
children that remain in my program from infancy through
school age, although with less frequency due to the
preschool push. My biggest concern is with parents that
move their children by rote, rather than by reason : )
--
Ruth B -- Remove the blinders to send email :)
Stewie (reading the Bible): "My my, what a thumping good
Banty
says...
>
>In article <blulu...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> Banty <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Stranger care is an intersting concept. How is it organized? Is there a
>> number
>> of people lined up as a relay race, such that, as soon as the children and
>> their
>> parents get acquainted with them, a new person comes in? Do the children go
>> to
>> a new place every month, or do the new unaquainted people come in? Or does
>> it
>> differ by stranger-care facility?
>>
>> Please enlighten me.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Banty
>>
>
>It's already been a long week, and I really needed to laugh (especially
>as I head out to vote in what has to be one of the more, um, interesting
>exercises in democracy in California . . .)
>
>So thanks.
Thank you!
Banty-to-the-rescue
Marty Billingsley
Sophie <Sop...@fakeaddress.com> wrote:
>
>"P. Tierney" <silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>news:Dtsgb.510823$Oz4.369466@rwcrnsc54...
>> Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their 1-3
>> the parents trying to make themselves feel better about where their
>> kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up in some way?
>>
>> I don't get it. I've never heard a parent with a similar aged child
>> at home saying that she/he was "homeschooling" their kid, so I'm
>> wondering why daycares, or the parents who send them there, do
>> the same. Or, maybe they don't where you live. But in my mind,
>> "school" begins at preschool, which is around age four. LMK what
>> it's like to others. Thx.
>>
>
>It's easier to tell him "hey you have school today" then "hey you have
>preschool playgroup today". Plus his older (by 16 months) sister goes to
>school (kindergarten) so he likes to think he goes to school too. I don't
>see the harm in it. However if I worked and he was in daycare, I'd call it
>daycare.
My kids go to "school" too. It's actually a cooperative, with three
groups (or "classes") for 2-year-olds, 3-year-olds, and 4-year-olds.
They point out that 2-year-olds are still toddlers and not preschoolers,
but I still tend to call it preschool rather than daycare. The
people looking after the kids are called "teachers", although the
kids are called "friends" rather than "students".
I'm not sure what goes on in a daycare, but there is a semi-curriculum
in the Explorer's Room (the 2-year-old room). For example, last week
the kids were asked to wear a different color each day (well, the
parents were asked to dress their kids in different colors): red on
monday, blue on tuesday, etc. Each day they talked about the color
of the day, pointed out things of that color, read books relating to
the color (The Big Green Monster, for example), mixed paints to make
a color (orange), etc. Not rocket science, but a nice set of activities
that could be called a curriculum.
To answer the question as to "why", I work full time and so my kids have
to go somewhere. I like this group situation, and it's cheaper than a
full-time nanny (even with two tuitions). In my neighborhood, nursery
school (preschool) starts at age 3 and kindergarten at age 5. I'm
not necessarily trying to make my kids the smartest kids on the block
(they already are :-) but their school does expose them to things that
doesn't occur to me to talk to them about. Variety....it all helps.
- marty
(mom to alex & andie, 2.5+)
Marty Billingsley
Not necessarily. I teach at an N-12 school and our first two
years (3 and 4 years old) are unabashedly called nursery school.
And this is a high-powered academic environment, connected to
the University of Chicago. (Maybe our school is so secure in
its self-image that it doesn't need to change with the times :-)
- marty
(mom to andie & alex, who will be nursery schoolers next year)
Sue
stiff at home. That isn't what I am talking about. I am talking what Ruth
said she doens't understand why the big push in education. Sending your kids
to preschool isn't on my list of pushing a child. All those kids who are
being pushed to read at an early age (who are not interested) and children
who have to have their kids in gifted programs in kindergarten because the
parents have to look good. These are things that I witness here where I
live. Listening to what your child wants to do isn't pushing and not what I
meant.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)
I'm Just a Raggedy Ann in a Barbie Doll World...
Michelle Spina <sp...@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:f1d6a43f.03100...@posting.google.com...
Ruth Baltopoulos
: Michelle Spina <sp...@mit.edu> wrote:
: > We have one of those kids - who will have 3 years of
preschool under
: > his belt before kindy. [..]It was 2 mornings a week, for
2.5 hours. [...]
: > So not all of us with kids in preschool at 2.9 are as
pathetic as you
: > describe. Some of us listen to our kids and try to
determine how we
: > can best meet their needs and personalities. I thought
that was a sign
: > of a *good* parent, but of course, you are free to feel
otherwise. :-)
: I had a child that went to preschool at age three because
she was bored
: stiff at home. That isn't what I am talking about. I am
talking what Ruth
: said she doens't understand why the big push in education.
Sending your kids
: to preschool isn't on my list of pushing a child.[...]
My references were more focused on full day programs, btw.
The original question was why daycares were billing
themselves as schools, and the discussion set off on a
meandering course -- one branch of which involved the
question of why children were being educated earlier and
earlier :) After which it clarified, in my mind, why
daycares and family child cares would feel the need to label
themselves as a school...........
--
Ruth B -- Remove the blinders to send email :)
Stewie (reading the Bible): "My my, what a thumping good
read, lions eating Christians, people nailing each other to
two by fours. I'll say, you won't find that in Winnie the
Pooh."
: --
: Sue (mom to three girls)
: I'm Just a Raggedy Ann in a Barbie Doll World...
:
: news:f1d6a43f.03100...@posting.google.com...
: >
: >
: >
: > m.
:
:
Sophie
> My references were more focused on full day programs, btw.
> The original question was why daycares were billing
> themselves as schools, and the discussion set off on a
> meandering course -- one branch of which involved the
> question of why children were being educated earlier and
> earlier :) After which it clarified, in my mind, why
> daycares and family child cares would feel the need to label
> themselves as a school...........
> --
> Ruth B
My kids' daycare makes a point of the fact that it's a playgroup, not a
learning/school type group. Although kids learn no matter what they're
doing, they're not sitting and being taught letters or numbers as such.
They inadvertently learn it anyway, through play. It's meant for
socialization, they say.
H Schinske
>Around here many of the larger daycare centers (and even some of the smaller,
>like the two-person family care my son went to) do preschool programs as part
>of
>the daycare. It's a good sign actually, a reflection of the Early Childhood
>Education degrees of a lot of the people who take this business up.
The preschool my kids went to did a preschool program as part of a longer day,
so that my daughters were there for the academic part in the morning, but most
of the rest of the kids stayed all afternoon until their parents picked them up
after work. I thought of those kids as being in preschool in the morning and
daycare the rest of the time, really.
I had to pay nearly as much as if I had had my kids there full-time, though :P
--Helen
H Schinske
>>
>> A child
>> with only the half-day, three day a week preschool I had as a child would
>be
>> seen as being "under-prepared".
Not here. My son was in such a program, and he and his preschool classmates
were all perfectly ready for kindergarten as far as I could see. They could
share, they could line up, they'd been exposed to colors and letters and
numbers enough so that those who were ready to learn them did, all of that.
I'll admit he finds full-day kindergarten pretty long some days, but that's
developmental -- he could really use a nap about every other day.
--Helen
H Schinske
>Nursery School seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.
I say "nursery school" about half the time, but then, I still say "icebox"
instead of "refrigerator"!
--Helen (whose father can just remember the iceman coming around)
toypup
I think the difference is the emphasis from the adults' POV. The child
always thinks it's play. Preschool is more structured. They both do art
projects, but the art projects at daycare may be more just throwing out
crayons and letting them color, whereas, in preschool, they teacher would
have in mind teaching them colors or shapes. DS's daycare is more freeplay,
as was my friend's child's previous daycare. Art was just play, no attempt
at teaching involved. They still learn, but on their own terms. No adults
standing there telling them names of this or that or making them sit still
for x amount of time or do this activity vs. that activity. I have no
problem with that, if the child is ready, but if not, it would subtle
pressure, IMO. At DS's daycare, they do go indoors vs. outdoors or have
color time, but they don't have to color, etc. They could play somewhere
else. It's more flexible, not so structured, not so much emphasis on
academic learning. I don't really care if DS knows his colors at this age
or not. He will learn them eventually, just from everyday conversation. If
he doesn't know them by first grade, I'll admit that my approach might not
have been the best.
toypup
"Ilse Witch" <go...@witches.org> wrote in message
news:3F82CD1D...@witches.org...
> P. Tierney wrote:
> > Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their 1-3
> > year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"? If so, why? Are
> > the parents trying to make themselves feel better about where their
> > kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up in some way?
>
> and there was a clear difference. The schools would require even the
> youngest children to participate in group activities at certain times,
> even if they were not really interested. They had a more defined program
> in teaching even the smallest kids math, reading and writing.
>
> The daycares we saw had a daily schedule, but children were free to
> play by themselves if they wanted to. They also offered some educational
> activities, but on a free basis and not starting before the age of 2.
> That's the main reason why we opted for the daycare.
Yes, that's the difference I saw, as well. I like daycares better for the
younger crowd, especially DS. He's not ready for structure.
H Schinske
>news:<Dtsgb.510823$Oz4.369466@rwcrnsc54>...
>> I don't get it. I've never heard a parent with a similar aged child
>> at home saying that she/he was "homeschooling" their kid,
I was asked when my son was no more than three whether I was homeschooling him.
Not would be, but was. I thought it was insane. I'm a stay-at-home-mom. What on
earth would I do differently if I was "homeschooling" my three-year-old versus
"not homeschooling" him? Sure, I taught him things, and tried to find ways he
could teach himself things, and so on, but would I not have done that anyway?
--Helen
P. Tierney
"Penny Gaines" <pe...@gaines.plus.com> wrote in message
news:04nulb...@gaines.plus.com...
McDonald's has a university?
P. Tierney
P. Tierney
> >
> > Interesting. Though I have to wonder, at that age, if how large the
> > difference is between "teaching" and "playing". When my child does
> > the type of "art projects" (scribbling, mostly), that's "playing" to me,
> > even though learning is going on (as it always is).
> >
> > It would be interesting, to me, to record the actions of the
> > kids and adults in a two year old "daycare" versus a "school"
> > and see just how different their days really are.
>
> I think the difference is the emphasis from the adults' POV. The child
> always thinks it's play. Preschool is more structured.
That was, in my head, more or less what my thesis would be were
I to undertake such a project -- that the main difference might be
in the adult's behaviour (how they organize their work, approach the
kids, etc.), and that the kid's activities in (good) daycare vs. "school"
might not be all that different.
P. Tierney
P. Tierney
"H Schinske" <hsch...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031007163737...@mb-m21.aol.com...
I would think so.
One parent that I know, in my opinion, doesn't do enough of
that at home, I think, because her child gets his "schooling" twice a
week at (what I call) daycare. That's likely atypical, I'm sure.
P. Tierney
P. Tierney
news:_rxgb.703986$uu5.115675@sccrnsc04...
>
>
> "P. Tierney" <silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
> : Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who
> send their 1-3
> why? Are
> : the parents trying to make themselves feel better about
> where their
> : kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up
> in some way?
>
And I've held off asking it for months, thinking it might
be too sensitive! But I've learned a great deal in the
thoughtful responses. This was a nice one to read from
one who is on the "inside", and I don't have a response
for all of it, though I appreciate you writing it.
> Being in the family childcare
> field, and having examined this question with great
> intensity, I have a number of theories :) I can only speak
> for the Boston, MA area, which is where I run my business,
> and for family child cares as opposed to centers, as that is
> my experience. As far as the 'daycares trying to pump
> themselves up in some way', why would a child care wish to
> do that if not for the parents (and that statement is
> somewhat telling, btw <EG>)?
I partly thought this because I'm a former teacher in an
area with public school choice. So, schools do their own
type of advertising and promotion that, like all advertising
and promotion, might tend to stretch the truth a bit. Or at
least put appealing labels onto things that don't have a lot
of meaning. Calling a high school "traditional", for example,
without any criteria for what that means, is one thing that
comes to mind. So, I'm a little sensitive to labeling.
> First of all, many of the parents *in my town* feel that
> their children *must* be in some type of school by 2.9.
> Regardless of the child's best interests, maturity,
> happiness in current situation, etc. At 2.9, they will go
> to preschool. There is much time spent discussing options,
> who goes where and why, and if you are not sending your
> child at 2.9, why on earth not?
Mine just turned 21 months, so I guess I'll get asked that
question too exactly one year from now. ;-) One parent
already said "poor thing" to my child because she wasn't
in a group setting a therefore wasn't being exposed to
illnesses, thus making her more likely to be sick later.
I mean, there are a lot of good reasons to go to group
care, but exposure to illness? I'll just her wander
around the hospital if I want to do that. ;-)
Regardless, it's clear that there are a lot more options
out there than I was aware of.
> Do keep in mind that some of us in the FCC field have
> children in our programs until they attend kindergarten.
> School begins at 2.9 in my town, so it behooves anyone that
> cares for children to include a preschool component in their
> program.
How do they go about setting up these "programs"?
As I ninth grade teacher, I had state standards, a school
curriculum, and my own prior and ongoing knowledge
to go by. Do the preschool components have "state
standards", or some common formula to follow?
I've thought, at some point in the distant future,
about looking into the child care business via starting
one up, so I'm curious as to how it all works, knowing
that things differ to a degree from state to state.
P. Tierney
jmorgan
Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
> "jmorgan" <joem...@verizonmail.com> wrote:
>
> Where once these types of child care
> settings would normally have a population of 0 to 4 or 5
> years of age, now parents (like this poster) feel that it is
> only good for 0 to 2 years of age, and that a preschool is
> *way* more preferable. Sweeping generalization that seems
> to be more and more commonly accepted, and which possibly
> precipitate the need for presenting ones self as a 'school'.
>
What I'm going by is observation of the few home daycare settings I saw
- and what I saw was the older toddlers seemed bored and weren't always
getting the attention they needed because there were babies and smaller
kids that needed more. I personally prefer a setting in which my child
is learning socialization skills and having a large variety of age
appropriate activities with children of her own age group. Its not to
say that one way is better or worse than the other, its just a personal
preference.
I'm sure the program you run is exceptional - unfortunately not all home
care providers are willing to do the actual *work* that is involved in
creating a stimulating environment for older kids, they are simply
babysitting.
cara
Nikki
> Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their
in my mind,
> "school" begins at preschool, which is around age four. LMK what
> it's like to others. Thx.
I was a little perplexed at that as well. I've used a family home daycare,
center based daycare, group family daycare, and now preschool. Even though
the center care was very structured and they did projects etc....I
considered it childcare. I *used* it as childcare but if I could I'd just
take Luke there now (we no longer use daycare) because he misses the action
but I'd still call it a playgroup I think.
Perhaps people use the word preschool when they send their kids for the
*kids* benifit and not because they are working? The only thing that
confuses me about that is that I personally don't think the kids need
preschool until they are 4 or very close to it. If they *want* it earlier
then that is fine but if they are crying and not wanting to go I don't see
the value in making them go at under 3.5-4 years old. I do think preschool
is fairly important in being ready for kindergarten but only the first year
before K, not their whole toddler lives, lol. I'm not saying I'm right,
some people think daycare/preschool at 2yo is necessary and I can live with
that ;-) Pre-school is just a seperate entitity in my mind I guess, like
kindergarten or first grade. To me calling a group thing for a 2yo
preschool would be as odd as calling my current preschool or even
kindergarten daycare...even if I was working while they were there!
--
Nikki
Mama to Hunter (4) and Luke (2)
Maryilee
>Needless to say, DS (2yo) is still in daycare.
>
I agree, which is why I don't send my three year old to preschool yet. Her
daycare provider is home based and the kids just play all day. My dd learned
her abc's when she was a toddler, can count objects up to about 8 or so, does
great at matching games and such, draws people with faces, legs, hair,
eyebroys, etc and all of that was learned while playing.
Maryilee
Maggie's Christmas page
http://www.angelfire.com/vi/maggie/christmaspictures.html
Info on hereditary spherocytosis
http://www.angelfire.com/vi/maggie/spherocytosis.html
Hillary Israeli
user <us...@iwantnospam.com> wrote:
* One thing I've noticed around here is that nobody seems to use
*the term "Nursery School" anymore. ;-) For me, the usual scheme of
*things was Nursery School for the 2+ to 4 year old set, then
*Preschool at 4+. But with the understanding that Nursery School
*is almost strictly a socialization experience, with no academic
*overtones. Preschool, on the other hand, would start work
Hmmm. I am the treasurer of our PTO. The name on our bank account is
"[name deleted] Nursery School and Kindergarten PTO." The official school
stationary, some of which I have right here, says "[name deleted] Nursery
School and Kindergarten" on it, too.
--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net in...@hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)
Ruth Baltopoulos
"P. Tierney" <silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote:
: "Ruth Baltopoulos" <rud...@comcast.net> wrote in message
: > Ahhh, the burning question.
: And I've held off asking it for months, thinking it
might
: be too sensitive! But I've learned a great deal in the
: thoughtful responses. This was a nice one to read from
: one who is on the "inside", and I don't have a response
: for all of it, though I appreciate you writing it.
Thanks. I appreciate the question. It brings forth a
multidimensional discussion about changes that I have been
observing with great interest. Being in the business of
child care, I have been known to take exception to the
direction that some parents have been taking with their
children's tender years :)
: I partly thought this because I'm a former teacher in
an
: area with public school choice. So, schools do their own
: type of advertising and promotion that, like all
advertising
: and promotion, might tend to stretch the truth a bit. Or
at
: least put appealing labels onto things that don't have a
lot
: of meaning. Calling a high school "traditional", for
example,
: without any criteria for what that means, is one thing
that
: comes to mind. So, I'm a little sensitive to labeling.
I can certainly empathise with that. As with almost
anything (resumes, applications, business advertisements)
one always tries to make whatever it is they have to offer
as attractive as possible. I do 'get my feathers ruffled'
when sweeping generalizations are made about the area of
child care with which I occupy myself :) It is so very
difficult to be correct in saying that 'family child care'
is such and such, and 'daycare centers' are so and so,
because they are -- each and every one -- *very* different
in what they have to offer. Particularly home-based care :)
Many changes have been made over the years as regards
regulations for child care in general. There are still
situations out there that are less than desireable, but that
applies across the board. The directors of FCCs, DCCs and
Preschools alike are expected to provide a stimulating, age
appropriate learning environment. Sure you can still find
'babysitters', licensed and unlicensed, but there are also
crummy preschools with questionable employees and programs.
It is the parents job to do the investigative work to find
the program that fulfills whatever need it is that they
have. This can vary greatly from one family to the next.
Many FCC Providers are greatly resistant to being forced
into a Preschool mold, but find that if they don't try to at
least meet the expectation half-way, they are losing many
clients at a very young age. Personally, my philosophy is
that children have more than enough school ahead of them.
My aim is to provide a homey, comfortable setting with lots
of varied activities that leave room for spontenaity; one
that emulates an extended family setting. I allow much of
my day to be 'child driven' (in other words, I allow the
children to have a large say in what we will be doing from
one activity to the next). They enjoy having input on our
day's schedule, and it makes for a much more cooperative
effort.
There are a number of parents floating around that, as I
said in a previous post, make decisions based on rote rather
than reason. Some of them don't even know *why* they are
making another change in their child's schedule other than
'this is what everyone is doing, therefore I should do it
too'. And again, I am talking mainly about two working
parent families that have their child(ren) in full day care
of some sort. This situation in and of itself can contain
many complexities due to working parent's guilt, time
constraints, stress, and all sorts of other joyous
components :)
: Mine just turned 21 months, so I guess I'll get asked
that
: question too exactly one year from now. ;-) One parent
: already said "poor thing" to my child because she wasn't
: in a group setting a therefore wasn't being exposed to
: illnesses, thus making her more likely to be sick later.
: I mean, there are a lot of good reasons to go to group
: care, but exposure to illness? I'll just her wander
: around the hospital if I want to do that. ;-)
Of course there is some validity to the group
setting/exposure to illness theory, but silly to think that
this a reason to put your child in care :)
: How do they go about setting up these "programs"?
: As I ninth grade teacher, I had state standards, a school
: curriculum, and my own prior and ongoing knowledge
: to go by. Do the preschool components have "state
: standards", or some common formula to follow?
That varies greatly from program to program. One can easily
access the frameworks that are used for the state of MA, for
instance, if one wanted to follow those guidelines in their
program. I do not follow any particular curriculum
framework, but I do include anything that I think would be
helpful for children when they enter school, such as:
~a generous amount of *supervised* free play (which always
allows for learning) coupled with organized activities
(playdough, cutting and gluing, painting, coloring, etc.)
seasonal/holiday/special day crafts, reading, singing,
manipulatives, puzzles, building blocks, puppet play,
dress-ups, musical instruments, outdoor play, hiking, walks,
field trips, etc etc
~a circle time every day, where each child has an
opportunity to speak, and includes the Daily News, which
covers day, date, season, weather, and we talk about
letters, numbers, colors, shapes, etc etc.
~I take opportunities as they come to talk about manners,
social behaviors, helping others, how to behave when sitting
at the table, why we should set examples for others, why how
we act is important, why we should be careful how we treat
others, how the younger children learn from us, ways to
share so that everyone is happy, how to have conversations,
etc etc Lots of talking; everyone is important; I stress
independence and applaud trying
~I provide an area filled with pillows and books for
children that would rather just relax and/or look at books
~exposure to basic computer use
: I've thought, at some point in the distant future,
: about looking into the child care business via starting
: one up, so I'm curious as to how it all works, knowing
: that things differ to a degree from state to state.
The beauty of the business is that it can be whatever you
want it to be. There are certain requirements, clearly, and
they vary from state to state (probably greatly) but the joy
is that you have plenty of latitude to create an environment
that is based on your individual philosophies. Lovely, that
:)
Ruth B
Sophie
>
> Hmmm. I am the treasurer of our PTO. The name on our bank account is
> "[name deleted] Nursery School and Kindergarten PTO." The official school
> stationary, some of which I have right here, says "[name deleted] Nursery
> School and Kindergarten" on it, too.
>
> --
> hillary
Another question - when and why did the PTA become the PTO?
Nevermind
> In article <_ABgb.705094$uu5.115301@sccrnsc04>, Ruth Baltopoulos says...
> >
> >"Banty" <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >
> >>, Nevermind says...
> >: > <sniiip> We need better and more easily available info
> >: >on what kind of stranger care is best for most kids at 3
> months, 12
> >: >months, 2 years, etc. You hear that kids do just fine in
> daycare if
> >: >it's "high quality"--what does that mean specifically?
> >:
> >: Stranger care is an intersting concept. How is it
> organized? Is there a number
> >: of people lined up as a relay race, such that, as soon as
> the children and their
> >: parents get acquainted with them, a new person comes in?
> Do the children go to
> >: a new place every month, or do the new unaquainted people
> come in? Or does it
> >: differ by stranger-care facility?
> >
> >for child care :)
> >--
> >Ruth B -- Remove the blinders to send email :)
>
> Oh, it's been out there for some time from anti-daycare people. "Little Johhhny
> should be cared for by a looooving muh-uh->ahem< *parent* instead of
> laaanguishing in STRANGER-care."
>
> Banty
Now, do I sound anti-daycare?
I don't know about others, but I use the term as a catch-all one to
encompass all the various forms of care, other than that of their own
family members, that working parents like myself might use. Nannies,
home-based daycares, institutional daycares, babysitters. Of course,
the caregivers aren't strangers for long, but certainly you get the
idea.
Ruth Baltopoulos
"Nevermind" <ohgos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<re: the term 'stranger-care'>
: I don't know about others, but I use the term as a
catch-all one to
: encompass all the various forms of care, other than that
of their own
: family members, that working parents like myself might
use. Nannies,
: home-based daycares, institutional daycares, babysitters.
Of course,
: the caregivers aren't strangers for long, but certainly
you get the
: idea.
I see that you don't mean it in a negative way. But as a
'stranger' that has 'cared' for many children (most of whom
are now, along with their families, like my own extended
family) the phrase has negative, cold implications. Should
I refer to my clients as foreign-families?
Ick. IMO of course :)
Ruth B
Michelle S. Spina
Ah - gotcha. I thought you were upset about the concept of 3 years of
preschool, and I just wanted to clarify that 3 years of preschool wasn't
necessarily the forcing of a kid into a highly structured, all day
thing.
But are kids really being educated earlier? It would be impossible for
our son not to be learning his letters and how to spell simple words. He
is literally *begging* us to teach him how to read. I'm not kidding -
begging. We've never pushed him in the least - he really wants to learn
letters and how to spell, and how to read. I know that he'll be reading
at some point this year, but this will have been completely driven by
his own desire. Is this not typical? I also can't see how you can force
a 2-4 year old to learn anything - on the flip side, if our son
*doesn't* want to do something, no amount of structured learning,
bribing, cajoling, etc. will make him do it. I would think that soon
enough, most parents would realize that their efforts were futile.
m.
Deod
Children's Defense Fund
Visit <A HREF="http://www.zona-pellucida.com">The Art of Parenting through
Art</A> for fine art, stories, essays and quotations about children
Ericka Kammerer
> Another question - when and why did the PTA become the PTO?
It didn't. There are PTAs and PTOs. One is a
national organization (the PTA? I always mix them up),
and if you have one, you have to pay dues into the national
organization and abide by various things that some groups
find objectionable. Those groups form the other sort of
organization instead.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Banty
says...
They'd be "stranger families". Perhaps - "abandoners" :)
Banty
No, I don't 'get the idea'. "Stranger-care" is an insulting, inaccurate term.
Simply "daycare" is enough. "Daycare" isn't applied to family members caring -
that it's hired is implicit.
Banty
JennP
"Hillary Israeli" <hil...@hillary.net> wrote in message
news:slrnbo6obe....@manx.misty.com...
> In <slrnbo5l8...@localhost.localdomain>,
> user <us...@iwantnospam.com> wrote:
>
> * One thing I've noticed around here is that nobody seems to use
> *the term "Nursery School" anymore. ;-) For me, the usual scheme of
> *things was Nursery School for the 2+ to 4 year old set, then
> *Preschool at 4+. But with the understanding that Nursery School
> *is almost strictly a socialization experience, with no academic
> *overtones. Preschool, on the other hand, would start work
>
> Hmmm. I am the treasurer of our PTO. The name on our bank account is
> "[name deleted] Nursery School and Kindergarten PTO." The official school
> stationary, some of which I have right here, says "[name deleted] Nursery
> School and Kindergarten" on it, too.
My ds' school uses the word "nursery" in it's name also.
--
JennP.
mom to Matthew 10/11/00
remove "no........spam" to reply
Nevermind
I have met people who say they've been homeschooling their kids "since
birth". So silly. Most of us just call it "parenting."
However, increasingly, I understand why some term it "homeschooling"
to keep an older "preschool-age child" out of preschool, even though I
would not. 4 YO preschool, and in some groups even 3 YO preschool, is
really considered de rigeur in most places. I think many people think
that kids have to go to preschool to learn stuff like their letters
and numbers, and so, if you don't send your kids to preschool, they
assume that you need to sit them down and teach them their letters and
numbers and colors, like preschool teachers are expected to do.
However, little ones tend to learn this stuff by osmosis as long as
the home environment is rich enough. One needn't "do school" at home
(i.e., "homeschool") to bring up a smart 3 or 4 YO (well, anymore than
you need to approximate school at home to bring up a smart 8 or 9 YO,
for that matter).
chiam margalit
> the parents trying to make themselves feel better about where their
> kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up in some way?
>
> wondering why daycares, or the parents who send them there, do
> "school" begins at preschool, which is around age four. LMK what
> it's like to others. Thx.
>
You must be unfamiliar with the homeschooling term HSB, or
Homeschooling Since Birth. It's one that totally cracks me up every
time I hear it used. Uh, isn't that called PARENTING?
But I know what you mean. A woman I used to work with sent her child
to a daycare centre and she always referred to it as 'school' which
was a tad weird. My kids didn't leave home until they were 2, and then
they attended a combination daycare/preschool. They had actually
classes, but I didn't refer to it as school until they actually hit
the preschool, and then the term was indeed correct. I think people
aren't putting much thought into what terms they use. School is
familiar to everyone, so they use it. With so many of the daycares
combining childcare and preschools, they themselves refer to the
institution as a school, so what's a parent to do?
Marjorie
>
> P. Tierney
chiam margalit
> "Donna Metler" <dmme...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:qOwgb.51798$k17....@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> : I think the change started to happen when kindergarten
> became an academic
> : program, and therefore the learning which happened in
> kindergarten was
> : pushed lower. At this point, it is expected that a child
> will come into
> : kindergarten with group experience, which still seems
> wrong to me. A child
> : with only the half-day, three day a week preschool I had
> as a child would be
> : seen as being "under-prepared".
>
> the push toward schooling at a younger and younger age, and
> the above explanation sounds reasonable. There are children
> in my town beginning a half-day Kindergarten program with
> *three years* of full-day preschool under their belts! It
> seems excessive and makes me wonder exactly what might be
> new for them in Kindergarten.
I don't think it's in the least bit excessive, and my kids did attend
a full three years of preschool/daycare before kindergarten. What I
DID find is that my children were ready for kindergarten at a far
younger age than their age peers who stayed home or only did very part
time preschool. My kids were completely socialized (as socialized as a
newly-minted 5 year old can be) by the time they hit kindergarten, and
they were ready to learn and take on new challanges with more aplomb
than many of their classmates. In fact, one kid in my son's K class
was 7 years old, a full 2 years older then my son, because this kid
not only repeated K, but was redshirted for a year. He was HUGE, but
his parents had kept him home until he started K and he was in shock.
He barely knew the alphabet, whereas the other kids not only knew the
alphabet, but the aleph bet as well (bilingual program), and quite a
few were solid readers.
What was new for my kids in kindergarten was more structure to the
day, with less play and more learning. More 'circle time', more being
read to aloud, more actual school work like writing journals and
reading classes and a bit of math work. Preschool was more
Fun&Learning, whilst kindergarten was more Learning&Fun.
>
> When my clients/friends/family ask me about preschools, I
> tell them to examine their reasons for making the change.
> You would be surprised at the lack of concrete reasoning
> behind the impending transition. Many parents don't have
> any idea *why* they are putting their children into
> preschool at 2.9, other than it has become the norm. This
> is the part that I find disturbing, particularly if it is
> not a positive or necessary move for the child. Many two
> working parent families operate on a certain amount of
> guilt, and I feel that this may drive some of the decisions
> regarding their children's daily environment. This coupled
> with the 'all children should start preschool at 2.9'
> mindset............
My, generalize much? I certainly don't believe that *all* kids should
start preschool at 2.9, but I do believe that if you want your child
to succeed in kindergarten, preschool is a much better building block
than sitting at home with mum watching TV game shows all day long.
SAHM's don't necessarily provide the worlds most stimulating
environment as they clean, cook, do laundry, and go shopping during
the day. And for social issues, well, most kids that stay home until
they're five have a bit of separation issues that other kids may have
long since gotten over.
What I think is, you believe your way is the only right way, and the
rest of us are stupid dolts that push our kids into school with no
rational thought. So here's MY rational thought of why my kids were in
preschool: I wanted them to LEARN about other kids, about other
families, about other cultures, about ways to share, ways to play,
ways to solve problems, ways to be a good friend, ways to love
learning, ways to respect adults... all very valid desires for my
children. That they also learned a ton about their religion, their
culture, their customs and their future possibilities was only
frosting on the cake.
Marjorie
chiam margalit
> > the push toward schooling at a younger and younger age, and
> > the above explanation sounds reasonable. There are children
> > in my town beginning a half-day Kindergarten program with
> > *three years* of full-day preschool under their belts! It
> > seems excessive and makes me wonder exactly what might be
> > new for them in Kindergarten.
>
> readers, and know how to read by age two, best kid on the block. Parent's
> today can't seem to understand that play is learning. Most parent's push
> their kids at an early age to learn and know everything before they even
> enter school. Most parents today overschedule their kids, they have to have
> piano lessons, soccer, swimming lessons at such an early age to prove that
> they have the best kid. It's evidenced even in this newsgroup. The post on
> what books to buy my four month old should clue you in that parents today
> are pushing their kids. Lots of children are just not ready for it and are
> losing out on their childhood because parents have to have the smartest kid.
> It's pretty sad, imo.
I somewhat agree, but I think your use of the word 'smartest' isn't
necessarily fair. I DO have one of the world's smartest kids... I
didn't want it, didn't hope to have it, didn't prep him at all, never
offered specialized tutoring or lessons of any kind other than sport,
but I got a very very gifted child. "Lucky me", she says
sarcastically. HOWEVER, I've found that many other parents to
profoundly gifted kids like mine not only don't push their kid, but
mainly step out of the way and just let them go. My kid is
spectacularly smart, but he doesn't pay a musical instrument (he's
tried, but didn't have the tenacity to practice and the rule in our
house is, no practice, no lessons). He takes absolutly NO academic
extracurricular work. He has, very occasionally, in the past, taken
classes that he really wanted to do including one at our local
community college when he was 9. But for the most part, I don't care
what he does in his spare time as long as he remains on an even keel,
has plenty of exercise, and plenty of rest. Pushy I'm not. Lazy, yes.
But pushy? No way.
I do find that there are a small subset of parents who think having a
very gifted kid is a good thing, and are constantly telling me how
talented their Johnny or Marcia is, like we should compare notes. What
tips me off to bright vs gifted kids is when parents are doing this
kind of comparison. Parents of truely gifted kids mostly don't want to
share because people look at you like you're nuts. ALmost every time I
share anything about my kid that's a bit odd, I get told off for
bragging or lying. So I have learned not to share most of it.
So, using the word 'smart' really pushes a button of mine. I think you
want to maybe rephrase what you said to mean 'successful'. You can't
get smart from tutors or extracurriculars. You're born smart or you're
not.
Marjorie
Ruth Baltopoulos
"chiam margalit" <marg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
: "Ruth Baltopoulos" <rud...@blinderscomcast.net> wrote:
: > I have pondered upon what factors might have
Always good to hear varied opinions, as one ponders 'aloud'
on a subject :) Your example shows children at each end of
the spectrum, which is an interesting comparison. So, it's
better to be overprepared than underprepared? Is there
anything in between? Could your children have been as
prepared by attending three full years in a daycare or
family child care rather than a 'school'?
: > When my clients/friends/family ask me about preschools,
I was careful to use modifiers to indicate that I was
expressing an observation about a trend that is happening
*in my town*. What part do you feel was so terribly general
that it enticed you to attempt sarcasm? Again, your example
seems to go from one extreme to the other; 'sitting home
with Mum watching TV games shows all day long' or
'preschool -- a better building block'. Sorry to be the one
to inform you, but much of the above paragraph consists of
generalizations :)
:
: What I think is, you believe your way is the only right
way, and the
: rest of us are stupid dolts that push our kids into school
with no
: rational thought. So here's MY rational thought of why my
kids were in
: preschool: I wanted them to LEARN about other kids, about
other
: families, about other cultures, about ways to share, ways
to play,
: ways to solve problems, ways to be a good friend, ways to
love
: learning, ways to respect adults... all very valid desires
for my
: children. That they also learned a ton about their
religion, their
: culture, their customs and their future possibilities was
only
: frosting on the cake.
Well, what you think in this particular instance would be
wrong. I would also like to clarify that after reading your
reaction to my post, I think that just *you* are a stupid
dolt :)
BTW, all the reasons that you sent your kids to preschool
can also be learned at home (in between game shows, o'
course) or in a daycare setting (by osmosis, as there is no
structure or learning there).
Peace, love, and understanding :)
Ruth B
P. Tierney
> >
> > I have pondered upon what factors might have precipitated
> > the push toward schooling at a younger and younger age, and
> > the above explanation sounds reasonable. There are children
> > in my town beginning a half-day Kindergarten program with
> > *three years* of full-day preschool under their belts! It
> > seems excessive and makes me wonder exactly what might be
> > new for them in Kindergarten.
>
> I don't think it's in the least bit excessive, and my kids did attend
> a full three years of preschool/daycare before kindergarten. What I
> DID find is that my children were ready for kindergarten at a far
> younger age than their age peers who stayed home or only did very part
> time preschool. My kids were completely socialized (as socialized as a
> newly-minted 5 year old can be) by the time they hit kindergarten, and
> they were ready to learn and take on new challanges with more aplomb
> than many of their classmates. In fact, one kid in my son's K class
> was 7 years old, a full 2 years older then my son, because this kid
> not only repeated K, but was redshirted for a year. He was HUGE, but
> his parents had kept him home until he started K and he was in shock.
> He barely knew the alphabet, whereas the other kids not only knew the
> alphabet, but the aleph bet as well (bilingual program), and quite a
> few were solid readers.
I'm sure that this anecdote is accurate, but I don't think that one
can generalize from it much, as I could give a similar anecdote
regarding my child and come to the opposite conclusion. I'm
sure, however, that there are studies out there that can give
accurate general pictures, but they still wouldn't be directly
applicable to this or that individual kid or parent.
> > When my clients/friends/family ask me about preschools, I
> > tell them to examine their reasons for making the change.
> > You would be surprised at the lack of concrete reasoning
> > behind the impending transition. Many parents don't have
> > any idea *why* they are putting their children into
> > preschool at 2.9, other than it has become the norm. This
> > is the part that I find disturbing, particularly if it is
> > not a positive or necessary move for the child. Many two
> > working parent families operate on a certain amount of
> > guilt, and I feel that this may drive some of the decisions
> > regarding their children's daily environment. This coupled
> > with the 'all children should start preschool at 2.9'
> > mindset............
>
> My, generalize much? I certainly don't believe that *all* kids should
> start preschool at 2.9, but I do believe that if you want your child
> to succeed in kindergarten, preschool is a much better building block
> than sitting at home with mum watching TV game shows all day long.
> SAHM's don't necessarily provide the worlds most stimulating
> environment as they clean, cook, do laundry, and go shopping during
> the day.
For us, we go to the museums, parks, zoo, swimming, other
similar trips, and play with friends. We often cook together,
and my child like to shop. I clean and do laundry after her
bedtime, except when she wants to clean with me during the day,
which we do. I've never watched a full game show during the day,
much less game shows all day long. TV time is limited. Play
time is not.
That's one counterexample.
P. Tierney
P. Tierney
"Ruth Baltopoulos" <rud...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Many FCC Providers
Sorry, I should've asked before, but what exactly is a
"family child care" provider? Is it a catch-all phrase that
includes essentially any non parental adult who is paid
to watch over/sit/teach/etc. kids, or is it something more
specific?
P.
Tierney
Marilyn
do...@imnevereverwrong.com
<silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote:
> Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their 1-3
>year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"? If so, why? Are
>the parents trying to make themselves feel better about where their
>kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up in some way?
We just call daycare "school" because the daycare is situated between
the pre-school and the school, on the same plot of land. My six yr old
goes to school so I guess it's just easier to tell them both that they
both go to "school" rather than try explaining to the 3 yr old that he
goes to daycare rather than "real school".
I don't call daycare "school" in order to make myself feel better
about where my child is. A real "school" would be an horrific place
for *my* 3 yr old! The daycare doesn't call itself a "school" either.
*We* call it school because of where it is and the fact that both
children are at almost the same place for the same number of hours
each day.
H
Ruth Baltopoulos
"P. Tierney" <silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote:
: Sorry, I should've asked before, but what exactly is a
: "family child care" provider? Is it a catch-all phrase
that
: includes essentially any non parental adult who is paid
: to watch over/sit/teach/etc. kids, or is it something more
: specific?
A family child care provider is an adult who is licensed by
the state to care for children in a home space. It is the
'home-based' (vs 'center-based') component of what most
people refer to as 'daycare'.
Ruth B
Penny Gaines
> It's their training program for their managers.
>>
>> McDonald's has a university?
That's the point: over here it would be called "The McDonalds
Mangement training centre", or something similar. To my mind,
universities are serious places where you take degrees that could
lead to research.
--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three
Sophie
news:tqv6ovkomcral2s6q...@4ax.com...
> x-no-archive:yes
> (an association) and pays dues to the national organization and has to
> follow certain guidelines set out by the national organization.
>
> The Parent Teacher Organization (or PTC - Coalition) is an independent
> organization not affiliated with any other organization. They can be
> more flexible because they don't have to follow national guidelines,
> but also don't have a national organization support and guidance.
>
> In practice there's very little difference between them.
>
> grandma Rosalie
Ahh okay, thanks. Charlotte's school is a DoD one and it has a PTO. I was
always curious what the difference was and I just never hear anyone call it
the PTA anymore.
Hillary Israeli
Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
*Sophie wrote:
*
*
*> Another question - when and why did the PTA become the PTO?
*
*
* It didn't. There are PTAs and PTOs. One is a
*national organization (the PTA? I always mix them up),
*and if you have one, you have to pay dues into the national
*organization and abide by various things that some groups
*find objectionable. Those groups form the other sort of
*organization instead.
:)
Our PTO has debated becoming some other thing - PTE? I forget, something
weird that is the new up and coming thing. It was soundly defeated,
though, because people don't see the point in a name change just for the
heck of it. The PTA is the national group, I believe.
Banty
It's the term applied to a daycare which someone sets up in their home. That
person is usually raising her (usually her) kids as well. It could have more
than one adult caretaker if the family care provider hires someone (my family
care actualy had three adults - the provider and two hires of hers, one a
duaghter completing an early childhood education degree. Or it can be one
person taking on, say, three infants.
Though I've always thought that appellation to be an awkward one - not sure what
would be better.
Banty
Banty
That's true over here, too. "McDonald's University" is atypical, and I'd wager
it sounds like so much hyperbole to most American ears as well.
Banty
Cheryl
<silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote:
> Is it just my area, or are more and more parents who send their 1-3
>year olds to daycares refer to them as "schools"? If so, why? Are
>the parents trying to make themselves feel better about where their
>kids are, or are the daycares trying to pump themselves up in some way?
>
> I don't get it. I've never heard a parent with a similar aged child
>at home saying that she/he was "homeschooling" their kid, so I'm
>wondering why daycares, or the parents who send them there, do
>the same. Or, maybe they don't where you live. But in my mind,
>"school" begins at preschool, which is around age four. LMK what
>it's like to others. Thx.
It seems to be a cultural thing. My first son is in proper
pre-school, an organised routine structure that is administered in
most states of Australia by the state Dept of Education. You cannot
start preschool unless you have turned 3 in the year before you start.
Anything before that may have a preschool program but is known as a
daycare centre and usually administered through a different govt dept.
Personally I send one son to daycare, an occasional care centre which
has a structured day and routine but does not claim to prepare
children for school, and one to preschool which runs similar hours to
school and prepares children for school. For which he will be
expected to know nothing except how to recognise his own name and
belongings.
--
Cheryl
Mum to DS#1 (11 Mar 99), DS#2 (4 Oct 00)
and DD (30 Jul 02)
Sue
> preschool, and I just wanted to clarify that 3 years of preschool wasn't
> necessarily the forcing of a kid into a highly structured, all day
> thing.
>
> But are kids really being educated earlier? It would be impossible for
> our son not to be learning his letters and how to spell simple words. He
> is literally *begging* us to teach him how to read. I'm not kidding -
> begging. We've never pushed him in the least - he really wants to learn
> letters and how to spell, and how to read. I know that he'll be reading
> at some point this year, but this will have been completely driven by
> his own desire. Is this not typical? I also can't see how you can force
> a 2-4 year old to learn anything - on the flip side, if our son
> *doesn't* want to do something, no amount of structured learning,
> bribing, cajoling, etc. will make him do it. I would think that soon
> enough, most parents would realize that their efforts were futile.
>
> m.
That is even different from what I am talking about. Sorry, I'm not more
clearer. In the area that I live in, the children are pushed to learn more,
read more and they are trying to have their child the most gifted. I am not
certain that all the children around here are interested in that. It's
parent led and not child led. That is what bothers me with the area I live
in. My kids are not really interested in school and/or learning beyond what
they have to do. It makes me feel bad, but I try to let them lead in what
they are interested in. We have a talented and gifted program in the school
and there is a big fight amongst the parents to get their child in it, even
if they don't belong. I feel bad for the kids really.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)
I'm Just a Raggedy Ann in a Barbie Doll World...
Sue
Michelle for clarification. I am having trouble saying what I really mean.
:o)
--
Sue (mom to three girls)
I'm Just a Raggedy Ann in a Barbie Doll World...
chiam margalit <marg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b8b4d4f7.031...@posting.google.com...
Nevermind
> >
> >I don't know about others, but I use the term as a catch-all one to
> >encompass all the various forms of care, other than that of their own
> >family members, that working parents like myself might use. Nannies,
> >home-based daycares, institutional daycares, babysitters. Of course,
> >the caregivers aren't strangers for long, but certainly you get the
> >idea.
>
>
> No, I don't 'get the idea'.
A bit dense there, eh?
>"Stranger-care" is an insulting, inaccurate term.
> Simply "daycare" is enough. "Daycare" isn't applied to family members caring -
> that it's hired is implicit.
but I was clearly not referring to just daycares, but to all the
various forms of non-family care out there. Geez, in all the years
I've used the term, including the times when my own kids were in three
of the different forms of, um, non-family care, noone ever got
offended. It's a shame you have chosen to get stuck on terminology,
since there are much more important aspects of the whole childcare
issue.
Ruth Baltopoulos
: Banty <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote
: > >I don't know about others, but I use the term as a
catch-all one to
: > >encompass all the various forms of care, other than
that of their own
: > >family members, that working parents like myself might
use. Nannies,
: > >home-based daycares, institutional daycares,
babysitters. Of course,
: > >the caregivers aren't strangers for long, but certainly
you get the
: > >idea.
: > No, I don't 'get the idea'.
: A bit dense there, eh?
Ouch.
: >"Stranger-care" is an insulting, inaccurate term.
: > Simply "daycare" is enough. "Daycare" isn't applied to
family members caring -
: > that it's hired is implicit.
: but I was clearly not referring to just daycares, but to
all the
: various forms of non-family care out there. Geez, in all
the years
: I've used the term, including the times when my own kids
were in three
: of the different forms of, um, non-family care, no one
ever got
: offended. It's a shame you have chosen to get stuck on
terminology,
: since there are much more important aspects of the whole
childcare
: issue.
Speaking for myself, of course, I am definitely stuck on
terminology when it applies to my business. I would not
call my child care clients 'stranger families'. It sounds
odd and insulting, regardless of it's intent as a generic
'catch-all' phrase. Why not stick with something just as
generic and less offensive, like 'child care'? This is just
as appropriate as a term that can apply to all the various
forms of 'non-family care'. Perhaps no one told you they
found the phrase offensive that was providing the 'stranger
care'? Did you refer to them directly as such?
If you don't give a whit how other people react to the
phrase, that's fine, too. But we are entitled to our
opinions on the subject, aren't we?
:)
--
Ruth B -- Remove the blinders to send email :)
Stewie (reading the Bible): "My my, what a thumping good
read, lions eating Christians, people nailing each other to
two by fours. I'll say, you won't find that in Winnie the
Pooh."
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date:
10/6/2003
Sue
> question too exactly one year from now. ;-) One parent
> already said "poor thing" to my child because she wasn't
> in a group setting a therefore wasn't being exposed to
> illnesses, thus making her more likely to be sick later.
> I mean, there are a lot of good reasons to go to group
> care, but exposure to illness? I'll just her wander
> around the hospital if I want to do that. ;-)
Exposing your daughter to illnesses should'nt be your sole reason for your
daughter attending preschool. However, it is a valid thought. If your child
doesn't get into a group setting at an earlier age, then yes she is going to
sick more often and miss a lot of school. Do you want her missing her
classes in kindergarten? They do so much in kindergarten that I feel they
need to go as much as humanly possible.
dragonlady
"Ruth Baltopoulos" <rud...@comcast.net> wrote:
They needn't be licensed to do this, depending upon the state
requirements and how many kids they take in. When my oldest was a baby,
the family child care provider I chose was not licensed: she did not
want to take in more than 3 children, and, in that state, licensing was
not required until you had 4 children. (She did, however, work through
an organization that conducted routine expections and provided support;
she met requirements stricter than the state requirements, but was
afraid if she got licensed she'd be pressured to take in more kids than
she really wanted to take in.)
meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
Sophie
That's called a home daycare provider where I live.
Ruth Baltopoulos
: But are kids really being educated earlier? It would be
impossible for
: our son not to be learning his letters and how to spell
simple words. He
: is literally *begging* us to teach him how to read. I'm
not kidding -
: begging. We've never pushed him in the least - he really
wants to learn
: letters and how to spell, and how to read. I know that
he'll be reading
: at some point this year, but this will have been
completely driven by
: his own desire. Is this not typical? I also can't see how
you can force
: a 2-4 year old to learn anything - on the flip side, if
our son
: *doesn't* want to do something, no amount of structured
learning,
: bribing, cajoling, etc. will make him do it. I would think
that soon
: enough, most parents would realize that their efforts were
futile.
It seems that children are being entered into educational
programs at younger and younger ages. Perhaps saying they
are being educated earlier was a poor way to put it. Most
children get the basics at home or at child care,
regardless, IME.
One of the concerns that I hold is parents changing their
child's setting at 2.9 (again, I am mainly referring to
children in full time child care of some sort) without
really sorting out their reasons for doing so. Clearly,
some here have taken these comments personally, which was
not my intention. However, I have seen this phenomenon
*over and over* *in my town*. I am not imagining it, and
have discussed it with peer directors in all segments of
child care *in my town*.
As for a child begging to learn letters, spell, and learn
how to read (was it age 3?), I would not say that this was
typical. I have had a few children that were really
interested in reading at that age over the years, but it has
not been the norm, nor for my own girls who were always avid
readers. All of the children in my groups love to read, and
we do it often. We also work on the alphabet, sounding out
letters, and figuring out how to spell words. I cannot say
that most of the children are as eager as your son :)
I agree with your comment that you can't force children to
learn, and have not been arguing that preschool is bad, just
pondering the direction that many have taken with their
children in their wee years :)
Ruth Baltopoulos
: [...}4 YO preschool, and in some groups even 3 YO
preschool, is
: really considered de rigeur in most places. I think many
people think
: that kids have to go to preschool to learn stuff like
their letters
: and numbers, and so, if you don't send your kids to
preschool, they
: assume that you need to sit them down and teach them their
letters and
: numbers and colors, like preschool teachers are expected
to do.
: However, little ones tend to learn this stuff by osmosis
as long as
: the home environment is rich enough. One needn't "do
school" at home
: (i.e., "homeschool") to bring up a smart 3 or 4 YO (well,
anymore than
: you need to approximate school at home to bring up a smart
8 or 9 YO,
: for that matter).
Exactly how I feel :)
Ruth Baltopoulos
: > Ruth B wrote:
: > A family child care provider is an adult who is licensed
by
: > the state to care for children in a home space. It is
the
: > 'home-based' (vs 'center-based') component of what most
: > people refer to as 'daycare'.
: That's called a home daycare provider where I live.
Family, home, same diff, no? Or do you use the term Family
Child Care Provider to mean something else?
Ruth Baltopoulos
: What I'm going by is observation of the few home daycare
settings I saw
: - and what I saw was the older toddlers seemed bored and
weren't always
: getting the attention they needed because there were
babies and smaller
: kids that needed more. I personally prefer a setting in
which my child
: is learning socialization skills and having a large
variety of age
: appropriate activities with children of her own age group.
Its not to
: say that one way is better or worse than the other, its
just a personal
: preference.
Right, and one of my points is that it is totally impossible
to generalize within a segment of child care with such
individually run programs :) Everyone has their personal
preferences. As I mentioned previously, I don't take small
infants because I feel that my particular program is best
suited to a bit of an older population. I do take children
beginning at around 9 months, depending on their mobility,
because all of what I do can be adjusted to suit the needs
of a child that age. It is not a problem to have age
appropriate activities for a mixed age group, and you may
have seen some poor examples.
I have interviewed several families that prefer to have
their children with others that are their own age
exclusively. That is not what I offer, nor do I feel that
it is a big deal, but I will steer them toward a group
setting (center) with rooms and programs that are delineated
by age. Generally speaking, that is not how a family or
home daycare will be run, unless they are focusing on
playgroups or a preschool-type environment IME. Different
strokes make the world go 'round :)
: I'm sure the program you run is exceptional -
unfortunately not all home
: care providers are willing to do the actual *work* that is
involved in
: creating a stimulating environment for older kids, they
are simply
: babysitting.
Well, there are also a fair number of folks in the business
that are not interested in creating a preschool or same age
setting, and that's OK, too :) There are plenty of programs
with focus on a true 'at home' environment, which includes
children having to wait while the younger ones are attended
to, and learning to occupy themselves without constant
direction, being involved in the cleaning, cooking,
shopping, errands, etc etc. I think this is awesome as
well, and know parents that seek out this type of situation.
Anyone that is just 'babysitting', this being defined as not
creating a stimulating environment whatever the methods, is
offering a substandard environment regardless of the label,
IMO. I regret using the term babysitting, other than to
indicate someone who is not a professional in the field of
child care. I know many exceptional babysitters, my own
teenage daughters included :)
Banty
>
>Banty <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote
>> >Now, do I sound anti-daycare?
>> >
>> >I don't know about others, but I use the term as a catch-all one to
>> >encompass all the various forms of care, other than that of their own
>> >family members, that working parents like myself might use. Nannies,
>> >home-based daycares, institutional daycares, babysitters. Of course,
>> >the caregivers aren't strangers for long, but certainly you get the
>> >idea.
>>
>>
>> No, I don't 'get the idea'.
>
>A bit dense there, eh?
You're being a rather slow learner here, actually.
>
>>"Stranger-care" is an insulting, inaccurate term.
>>Simply "daycare" is enough. "Daycare" isn't applied to family members caring -
>> that it's hired is implicit.
>
>but I was clearly not referring to just daycares, but to all the
>various forms of non-family care out there. Geez, in all the years
>I've used the term, including the times when my own kids were in three
>of the different forms of, um, non-family care, noone ever got
>offended. It's a shame you have chosen to get stuck on terminology,
>since there are much more important aspects of the whole childcare
>issue.
I'd wager that's because it's not polite to correct impolite behavior, and a lot
of folks kept their feelings to themselves.
"Stranger-care" is an insult and inaccurate. People here are offended and have
told you so. Of course you can continue to use it instead of rather common and
straighforward alternatives - that's your choice. Of course, such a choice will
have a bearing on what I conclude about your character.
Banty
Sophie
>
> Family, home, same diff, no?
Same thing to me.
>Or do you use the term Family
> Child Care Provider to mean something else?
> --
> Ruth B
I had never seen/heard the term before I saw it in your posts :)
Clisby
Nevermind wrote:
>
>
> but I was clearly not referring to just daycares, but to all the
> various forms of non-family care out there. Geez, in all the years
> I've used the term, including the times when my own kids were in three
> of the different forms of, um, non-family care, noone ever got
> offended. It's a shame you have chosen to get stuck on terminology,
> since there are much more important aspects of the whole childcare
> issue.
It still sounds insulting. IMO, anyone who uses the term "stranger
care" should not be surprised if people think he/she is anti-daycare.
Come on now - *stranger care?" I've never left my children with a
stranger, nor would I. Do you really think "stranger" and "non-family"
are synonymous?
Clisby
Ericka Kammerer
> If I were going to put a child in 'school' at such an early age, I
> think I'd try to find a Montessori school (one that really followed
> the principals the Marie Montessori put forth - since I'm a bit
> cynical that some of those schools might be just named Montessori and
> not really be that).
>
> Perhaps I'm just an old Luddite, but I would want to resist
> strenuously the idea that preK children should be in 'school'. Not
> that they shouldn't be learning - just that it shouldn't be in name or
> fact a school. No tests or quizzes. No 'graduation'.
Actually, you don't have to go to Montessori to
get a preschool that isn't heavily focused on academics.
The preschool we used (and will use again, and for which
I sit on the oversight committee) is firmly in the
non-academic camp. They do spend some time in fun
activities that also happen to be educational, but
it's very low key. It's much less academic than most
Montessori schools I know.
Personally, I'm not in favor of highly academic
preschools, though I suppose there are probably certain
kids for whom they're a good idea (people being so
different and all ;-) Maybe the area I'm in is unusual,
but while I could certainly find a heavily academic
preschool if I wanted one, there's no shortage of
non-academic preschools to choose from.
And FWIW on the nomenclature debate, what
I hear most often around here is "daycare" used to
describe care that enables a parent to work (usually
full day, unless the parent is part-time) and "school"
(as in nursery school, preschool, etc.) used to
describe programs that are curriculum driven (whether
the curriculum is academic or not) and of shorter
duration (usually half day a few days a week) for
kids 3yo (or so) and up. The shorter term programs
for 2yos are usually called something like "Parents
Day Out" or "Mothers Day Out" or some such thing.
"Pre-K" is usually a five half-day a week program
for 4yos. Of course, this is complicated by the
fact that some daycares offer a preschool program
part of the day and some preschools offer extended
daycare ;-) I find very little use of "school" as
a oneupsmanship sort of term around here.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Barbara Bomberger
<rud...@blinderscomcast.net> wrote:
>"Sophie" <Sop...@fakeaddress.com> wrote:
>
>: > Ruth B wrote:
>
>: > A family child care provider is an adult who is licensed
>by
>: > the state to care for children in a home space. It is
>the
>: > 'home-based' (vs 'center-based') component of what most
>: > people refer to as 'daycare'.
>
>: That's called a home daycare provider where I live.
>
>Family, home, same diff, no? Or do you use the term Family
>Child Care Provider to mean something else?
Well, in most military places it is called FCC or Family Child care,
certainly in the army it is. Also everywhere in the east coast that I
have been.
barb
Barbara Bomberger
wrote:
Sophie, I know you are marine, right??? Well, most of the rest of DOD
its called Family Child Care when licensed through the government.
Also, most of the upper east coast, and it was when I was in Hawaii.
The parent organization for membership is called that as i recall (its
been three or four years)
Barb
>