Chicken Pox Protocol
Delenn
were in [cloth] diapers in the early 90's. Now my kids are ages 14, 12
and 5.
My five year old presented with chicken pox last night. I joyfully
started calling around to arrange playdates - and we can't find anyone
who wants it.
This is really weird to me. Back when my older two were getting it the
shot was looming and no one wanted to give the shot and the word was out
on the street to pass along clothing, set up playdates (if the kid felt
well enough) and have them share sippy cups.
Now everyone I've called acts like I'm some sort of weird mother.
Has the attitude changed so much on this? I recall the consensus being
that the vaccine would need booster shots and it was better to get it
naturally if you could. We held off as long as we could and he's
entering public school next Fall so this feels like the nick of time
(the public school will require vaccination.)
I keep hearing stories about kids vaccinated as toddlers now.
When did this change? I feel so disconnected from this issue.
Delenn
Tori M.
"Delenn" <Del...@whoever.com> wrote in message
news:35i70kF...@individual.net...
> Hi, I'm a lurker these days but used to be a regular when my first two
> were in [cloth] diapers in the early 90's. Now my kids are ages 14, 12
> and 5.
>
> My five year old presented with chicken pox last night. I joyfully
> started calling around to arrange playdates - and we can't find anyone who
> wants it.
>
> This is really weird to me. Back when my older two were getting it the
> shot was looming and no one wanted to give the shot and the word was out
> on the street to pass along clothing, set up playdates (if the kid felt
> well enough) and have them share sippy cups.
>
> Now everyone I've called acts like I'm some sort of weird mother.
>
> Has the attitude changed so much on this? I recall the consensus being
> that the vaccine would need booster shots and it was better to get it
> naturally if you could. We held off as long as we could and he's entering
> public school next Fall so this feels like the nick of time (the public
> school will require vaccination.)
have brought her over.. I will be on search for someone with Chicken Pox
before it is time for Xavier to get vaccinated.. unfortunatly it is hard to
find them these days.
Tori
--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Xavier 10/27/04
Marie
<jeff...@Obliviouslakeland.ws> wrote:
>If I had known someone with chickenpox before Bonnie got her vacine I would
>have brought her over.. I will be on search for someone with Chicken Pox
>before it is time for Xavier to get vaccinated.. unfortunatly it is hard to
>find them these days.
Why get them vaccinated if you want them to catch it?
Marie
Tori M.
"Marie" <annad...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8c28v0dhbgl4c9g8r...@4ax.com...
I did not think that "I dont want X vaccine" would work.. That was before I
started hanging out here;) I supose I COULD let Xavier and future kids get
it naturaly.. hehe I believe MY school policy states that it is not a
neccesary vaccine to attend... hehe... Thank you for making me think.. lol
dragonlady
Delenn <Del...@whoever.com> wrote:
Yes, the attitude appears to have changed.
A couple of years ago, a church member called me to say her two girls
had (finally!) come down with chicken pox, so she wouldn't be able to
teach that Sunday, but she invited me to pass the word along so anyone
who wanted to expose their kids could come over. I posted the
information to the church e-mail list -- and actually caught quite a lot
of flack! I remember working at exposing my kids, and my parents doing
the same thing (especially for one brother who approached his teens
before he came down with them), and I KNOW there are people oppossed to
the vaccines -- so I was pretty surprised to have younger parents upset
with me for merely telling them where they could set up a play date if
they wanted to expose their kids.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
Hillary Israeli
Delenn <Del...@whoever.com> wrote:
*My five year old presented with chicken pox last night. I joyfully
*started calling around to arrange playdates - and we can't find anyone
*who wants it.
I've heard of this whole "chicken pox party" attitude - but I'm shocked
that you experienced it with kids as young as your older ones are! I had
thought it must be a long-lost sort of thing, because I am 34 and when I
had chicken pox myself (I think I was in 3rd grade) my parents were PISSED
OFF at the family of the child who gave me the pox (not that it was their
fault - they didn't know she was going to wake up with the pox the morning
after our sleepover!), and I was kept out of school and away from other
kids, and in fact none of the other neighborhood kids were allowed to be
anywhere near me (by their own parents, not by my parents), and I was
terribly sick for quite some time and can't imagine anyone wishing that
experience on their own child. I couldn't eat and almost required
hospitalization! I remember the whole school was closed for a bit and no
one was allowed to play at anyone else's house until our parents had
confirmed that no one in the house had pox.... there was none of this
"bring Jimmy over to get exposed" stuff going on when I was a kid!!
--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx
Ericka Kammerer
I think many things have changed. I think that more school
districts and child care settings are requiring it. It's on the
standard vaccination schedule pretty early (12 months or so?).
Doctors are feeling more comfortable about recommending it.
Hospitalizations from chicken pox are down significantly, so
people are feeling that maybe the vaccine is better than
getting chicken pox and risking vaccination, plus many people
don't want to accidentally be the one to pass chicken pox on
to someone for whom it *is* a significant danger. All in all,
I think a number of people are thinking the possibility of a
booster shot is more acceptable to them than the risks of
getting chicken pox or passing it on to someone for whom it's
dangerous (even though the risk of those things is quite low).
Plus a lot of people just can't afford to have their kid
down and out with chicken pox, what with having to take off
work and such.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Marie
<jeff...@Obliviouslakeland.ws> wrote:
>I did not think that "I dont want X vaccine" would work.. That was before I
>started hanging out here;) I supose I COULD let Xavier and future kids get
>it naturaly.. hehe I believe MY school policy states that it is not a
>neccesary vaccine to attend... hehe... Thank you for making me think.. lol
>
>Tori
Ok, I was just wondering! I thought your daughter wasn't school-aged
yet but wasn't sure.
I'd rather mine get the pox also but my oldest is 9.5 and hasn't yet!!
They're all at the safest age to get it and I'd hate for them not to
and have to keep getting the vaccine the rest of their lives once
they're teens. (isn't it every ten years?)
Marie
Ericka Kammerer
> I'd rather mine get the pox also but my oldest is 9.5 and hasn't yet!!
> They're all at the safest age to get it and I'd hate for them not to
> and have to keep getting the vaccine the rest of their lives once
> they're teens. (isn't it every ten years?)
Not necessarily. The vaccine has been given in Japan for
25 years and in the US for more than 10 years, and so far, the
study subjects have not shown any weakened immunity.
In addition, some theorize that the frequent re-exposures
of adolescents and adults who'd had chicken pox were helpful in
maintaining lifelong immunity to chicken pox. With so many being
immunized today, those re-exposures are less and less likely,
making it possible that even those who had chicken pox might not
maintain their immunity as well.
Best wishes,
Ericka
dragonlady
hil...@hillary.net (Hillary Israeli) wrote:
My kids are 22 and 19, and it was still fairly common where I lived.
The vaccine hadn't been developed yet, and chicken pox is significantly
more dangerous if you get it after puberty than if you get it before --
plus if you go to chicken pox parties, you MAY have some control over
when your kids get it. (Didn't work for me -- they never picked it up
from deliberate exposure, instead coming down with it the first day of a
week long camp!)
When you were a kid, the only way to develop immunity to chicken pox was
by getting it. There are still folks who believe that the immunity
developed by having the disease is better than the immunity from
vaccines. Given it's dangerousness at older ages, at least until the
vaccine WAS available, I can't imagine NOT trying to make sure your
child caught it younger!
Marie
wrote:
> Not necessarily. The vaccine has been given in Japan for
>25 years and in the US for more than 10 years, and so far, the
>study subjects have not shown any weakened immunity.
> In addition, some theorize that the frequent re-exposures
>of adolescents and adults who'd had chicken pox were helpful in
>maintaining lifelong immunity to chicken pox. With so many being
>immunized today, those re-exposures are less and less likely,
>making it possible that even those who had chicken pox might not
>maintain their immunity as well.
Ok, I guess I had confused the "been here ten years" with whatever it
is that is given every ten years. Ten years really has something to do
with something, it's stuck in my head!
Thanks for the clarification! Very interesting about the re-exposure
helping to keep immunity, I haven't heard that before but I can see
how it would.
Marie
Mary_...@tvo.org
kids. However, had it been available I certainly would have gone for
it. Of my three, the oldest and the youngest had jim dandy cases - they
got quite sick and then looked like they had been chewed by rats for
weeks. It wasn't the very mild no big deal illness advertised, plus the
very long healing time meant they were playground pariahs for an
extended period of time. And the third kid, who had the very mild
case....then turned around and got shingles a couple of years later at
age six or seven, which was also thoroughly unpleasant (its contagious,
its painful, it can take months to completely resolve).
Mary G.
Beth Kevles
Every 10 years is recommended for the tetanus booster. No, you REALLY
don't want to get tetanus! Nasty stuff.
--Beth Kevles
bethk...@aol.com
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.
NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.
toto
Israeli) wrote:
>there was none of this "bring Jimmy over to
>get exposed" stuff going on when I was a kid!!
There was to an extent in the 70s when my kids
were young.
http://dermatology.about.com/cs/chickenpox/a/chickencomp.htm
OTOH, while Chickenpox is typically a benign,
self-limited disease, but serious complications can
arise. About 14,000 people are hospitalized
because of chicken pox and approximately 100
people die of chickenpox every year. The risk of
complications is highest in people with c
ompromised immune systems, newborns, and
adults.
The most common complication of chickenpox is
secondary bacterial infection of the chickenpox
lesions.
The second most common complication of
chickenpox involves the neurological system. One
of these disorders is called acute cerebellar ataxia
which causes progressive irritability, difficulty
walking, difficulty with vision, and speech
disturbances that persist for days or weeks but
normally clear completely over time. Another
neurologic complication is varicella
meningoencephalitis which causes sudden but
transient delirium, seizures, headache, sensitivity
to light, and neck pain. These symptoms usually
resolve after 24 to 72 hours.
The leading cause of varicella-related morbidity
and mortality in adults, pregnant women, and people
with compromised immune systems is varicella
pneumonia. Approximately 1 in 400 adults who
develop chickenpox are hospitalized for varicella
pneumonia. Varicella pneumonia is caused by the
spread of the virus in the bloodstream to the lungs.
Risk factors for developing this complication include:
* Contracting chickenpox at an older age
* A rash that involves a larger number of lesions
* A compromised immune system
* Pregnancy (especially in the third trimester)
* Smoking
* Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)
A common complication of chickenpox is a transient
hepatitis, or inflammation of the liver. This does not
usually cause symptoms and resolves on its own.
However, Reye's syndrome is a life-threatening
condition that causes liver failure in association with
aspirin administration for a viral illness. The incidence
of Reye's syndrome has dramatically decreased as
parents have learned not to give their children aspirin
for a fever.
http://dermatology.about.com/cs/chickenpox/a/chickenvacc.htm
Since wide-spread vaccination began in the mid-1990's,
the incidence of chicken pox has decreased dramatically.
Varivax is the live-virus vaccine that produces persistent
immunity against chicken pox. The virus used for the
vaccine is known as the Oka strain. It is an attenuated
strain meaning it is much weaker than naturally occurring
varicella. This weaker virus infects the cells and replicates
in the bloodstream causing the immune system to develop
antibodies to fight it off. In most cases this infection is
subclinical, meaning it does not produce symptoms. If
a vaccinated person gets chicken pox, the disease is
mild 95% of the time. The length of time these antibodies
stay effective is controversial, but it appears that
vaccination does confer long-lasting immunity.
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
Delenn
My MIL was shocked that I hadn't vaccinated DS. She told me a horror
story about one of her five kids and chickenpox. My best friend has a
horror story, as well. My first two sailed through with two or three
days of viral discomfort managed by OTC meds. I really didn't think it
was any big deal.
DS is sleeping right now with tylenol and benadryl in him, and he has a
cotton puff of Bactine to dab on the ones he says "sting", and I cut his
fingernails and washed them with a fingernail brush before bed. I
offered him an oatmeal bath but he declined.
I'll do this for a few days, I'll miss work, he'll miss school, but
that's no biggy. My *big* problem is that I'm training for an athletic
event and I won't be able to get to the gym since I can't leave him in
the daycare room in his condition! In the scheme of things a few days
of missed work/workouts isn't going to damage me any, though, and being
available to tend a sick kid is a parenting time I sort of like.
Believe me, a cutely five year old who still wants to curl up with his
Mommy is treasured by the mother of a snotty 14 year old daughter. :-(
Delenn
Delenn
> http://dermatology.about.com/cs/chickenpox/a/chickencomp.htm
Thanks for the great (and timely) info.
Delenn
Rosalie B.
Obviously when I got chicken pox it was way before the vaccine was
available, and my mom tried everything to keep my sister from getting
it without success. I had a mild case, my sister had a MUCH more
severe case. It cause my mom to pray that if God let my sister get
well, she'd never complain about doing the dishes again (I guess she
had complained about that just before my sister got sick).
This was quite usual with us - I always got whatever it was first and
didn't have a very severe case, and she got it afterwards and was
really sick. Privately, I thought this was payback because I had
asthma and hay fever and was always wheezing and stuffy - being
allergic to just about everything. Whereas she had none of those
problems and would have the gall to complain that my wheezing was
keeping her awake..
I have also had shingles, but within the past 2 years - way long after
I had the pox originally. It was painful, but it was in the torso
area so at least my face and eyes weren't involved.
I'm pretty sure my two older kids came down with it just about at the
end of vacation bible school. I think they had mild cases. I'm not
sure when the younger ones had it - I don't have access to their baby
books which would tell me because I gave them theirs when they had
their first child.
grandma Rosalie
animzmirot
months old to another misc.kids poster from days of yore. She posted that
her husband (a librarian) and brought home the pox, and her twins had caught
it, and I was over in a flash. I know of plenty of other moms who also
exposed their kids early. I did it because I didn't want them to get it when
they were school aged and miss that much school. The shot was not available
at that time, but was looming, and our ped recommended NOT getting the shot,
as she thought it was going to be ineffectual at best. Turned out that DS
got a very mild case of the pox as a toddler, and then caught it again when
he was 10, also with a fairly light case.
Right now there are discussions on another forum about this very topic and
people with the pox are inviting people who want to expose their kids to
come on over. It's happening a lot nowadays, especially on the left coast
where people are rabidly anti-vaccine. People would rather expose their kids
young and get it over with than use the vaccine which has not proved itself
to be 100% effective or anywhere near that.
animzmirot
"Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1cmdnZynW_y...@comcast.com...
> Delenn wrote:
> I think many things have changed. I think that more school
> districts and child care settings are requiring it. It's on the
> standard vaccination schedule pretty early (12 months or so?).
Nope, you're actually not correct. Schools require either the vaccination OR
exposure to the disease. Even in a very pro-vaccination state like MA, you
only have to show that your child has had the disease or the vaccination for
school enrollment.
> Doctors are feeling more comfortable about recommending it.
Also not always the case. Doctors in some areas are not pro-vaccination at
all, and recommend to their patients to expose their kids for better long
term coverage. This is especially prevalent in the Bay Area and pacific
northwest.
animzmirot
"Tori M." <jeff...@Obliviouslakeland.ws> wrote in message
news:VJednU4Ifs6...@bright.net...
It is in certain circles. Email me and I'll tell you where you can find pox
parties!
Welches
"dragonlady" <meh...@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote in message
news:mehouck-2F353D...@newssvr21-ext.news.prodigy.com...
> In article <slrncv8hhl....@manx.misty.com>,
> hil...@hillary.net (Hillary Israeli) wrote:
>
>> In <35i70kF...@individual.net>,
>> Delenn <Del...@whoever.com> wrote:
>>
>> *My five year old presented with chicken pox last night. I joyfully
>> *started calling around to arrange playdates - and we can't find anyone
>> *who wants it.
>
> by getting it. There are still folks who believe that the immunity
> developed by having the disease is better than the immunity from
> vaccines. Given it's dangerousness at older ages, at least until the
> vaccine WAS available, I can't imagine NOT trying to make sure your
> child caught it younger!
> --
it. Mum thought "get it over with" and got us all playing together. Me and
brother didn't get it. (he was still bf I think so that might explain him).
We both went through many epidemics etc. Eventually we both caught it age
21. What was particularly strange was that no one else at uni had it when I
had it. Poor college nurse-she thought I was going to start an epidemic off!
I'd say if they haven't got it by a certain age (in teens) then vaccine
might be sensible as it is much worse when you're older. I have scars to
prove it!!
However I haven't got to worry about it as both mine had it (#1 mildly, #2
badly) and the vaccine is only just being trialed over here. I just want to
get dh to have him MMR as he hasn't had any! He's worse than the pair of
them about needles/doctors! :-)
Debbie
Sue
But, I am coming from a person that has an immunocompromised daughter and
the chicken pox could have killed her. As it was, she did get the chicken
pox and did very well, but had to take an anti-viral medication along with
it. I am happy that two of my three kids had the chicken pox and one was
vaccinated. So, hopefully I am done with it. They have kept their immunity
to it so far.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)
"Delenn" <Del...@whoever.com> wrote in message
news:35i70kF...@individual.net...
Sue
> that's no biggy.
Maybe not to you, but there are some parents that taking 1-2 weeks off of
work would be a hardship.
toto
wrote:
>Nope, you're actually not correct. Schools require either the vaccination OR
>exposure to the disease. Even in a very pro-vaccination state like MA, you
>only have to show that your child has had the disease or the vaccination for
>school enrollment.
Showing exposure isn't the same as having had the disease. Here you
must have a doctors note that you actually had Chickenpox. You
certainly cannot just say - my child had it or my child was exposed to
it.
Delenn
> "Delenn" <Del...@whoever.com> wrote in message
>
>>I'll do this for a few days, I'll miss work, he'll miss school, but
>>that's no biggy.
>
>
> Maybe not to you, but there are some parents that taking 1-2 weeks off of
> work would be a hardship.
I didn't mean to speak for others. I think this is part of why
attitudes changes so much, though: such a large percentage of families
now have two parents working outside the home and no back-up care.
That was my situation with the first two, but by the time they hit
school age I could no longer work outside the home. It's one of those
little ironies: it's horribly hard to leave a baby in daycare, but it's
at least possible. I was never able to get adequate after-school care
for my first-grader and ended up starting a business I operate from
home. With three kids in three different schools (none of which have
buses) and three sets of after-school activities and three sets of
teacher in-service days and different school vacation schedules and snow
days and sick days... I'd never be at work. I just gave up trying.
Delenn
Delenn
> I would never in a million years purposely expose my kids to any illness.
> But, I am coming from a person that has an immunocompromised daughter and
> the chicken pox could have killed her.
That's exactly why I'm keeping him away from others. On Saturday, just
before his pox erupted (and the blizzard hit), I brought a batch of soup
and bread to a nine-month pregnant friend and a 90-year old shut-in. My
son wasn't with me when I cooked or baked, and he wasn't with me when I
delivered, but I'm still worried about them.
And I wouldn't let him go to the grocery store with me last night nor to
the babysitting room at the Y, because I can't know how another person
would react to being exposed to this [common] viral infection.
Delenn
Delenn
My mindset is the same as yours (though I'm in Massachusetts, the
opposite of the Left Coast). I was one of those misc.kidders of yore.,
even got a couple purple "I'm a misc.kid" t-shirts to prove it.
Apparently we're anachronistic. I cynically wonder if the drug
manufacturers had some little campaign to highlight the horrors of
chicken pox that reached the slightly younger parents.
Delenn
Sue
> school age I could no longer work outside the home. It's one of those
> little ironies: it's horribly hard to leave a baby in daycare, but it's
> at least possible. I was never able to get adequate after-school care
> for my first-grader and ended up starting a business I operate from
> home. With three kids in three different schools (none of which have
> buses) and three sets of after-school activities and three sets of
> teacher in-service days and different school vacation schedules and snow
> days and sick days... I'd never be at work. I just gave up trying.
You sound like me. I do work at home now and it has been a lifesaver for us.
I hear ya on the three schedules and schools. Though right now, it's just
two schools and no buses. With the many many school days the kids have off,
it's a good thing I do work at home. Like you, I would never be at work.
Sue
> before his pox erupted (and the blizzard hit), I brought a batch of soup
> and bread to a nine-month pregnant friend and a 90-year old shut-in. My
> son wasn't with me when I cooked or baked, and he wasn't with me when I
> delivered, but I'm still worried about them.
>
> And I wouldn't let him go to the grocery store with me last night nor to
> the babysitting room at the Y, because I can't know how another person
> would react to being exposed to this [common] viral infection.
Yep. I'm glad you are keeping him from others. I don't think I would view CP
the way I do if I didn't have the situation with my daughter. I am very glad
that the girls did end up with the chicken pox and it's over.
Ericka Kammerer
> animzmirot wrote:
>> People would rather expose
>> their kids
>> young and get it over with than use the vaccine which has not proved
>> itself
>> to be 100% effective or anywhere near that.
>
> Apparently we're anachronistic. I cynically wonder if the drug
> manufacturers had some little campaign to highlight the horrors of
> chicken pox that reached the slightly younger parents.
I dunno. Reasonable people can disagree, as the varicella
vaccine isn't a slam dunk, but there has been a pretty dramatic
reduction in hospitalizations and complications due to chicken
pox as a result of vaccination, and the immunity conferred appears
to be pretty durable. It's not perfect, and there are some studies
that raise some questions, but overall it appears reasonably
effective, and when there is breakthrough disease, it is typically
quite mild by comparison and much less likely to result in
hospitalization or complications.
It's likely a moot point to some degree, as many people
don't really consider the question at all, and vaccinate just
because the vaccine is on the routine vacc. schedule. Of those
who consider the pros and cons, I think vaccine coverage has
increased just because the vaccine is proving itself to be
reasonably safe and effective, not because of any scare tactics.
There are some areas that are underexplored as yet (e.g., whether
it might increase incidence of shingles in current elderly who
have previously had wild chicken pox), but then again, there are
some underexplored areas regarding immunity conferred by wild
virus (e.g., it is beginning to appear that having wild chicken
pox doesn't confer quite the level and duration of immunity that
was originally thought).
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> That's exactly why I'm keeping him away from others. On Saturday, just
> before his pox erupted (and the blizzard hit), I brought a batch of soup
> and bread to a nine-month pregnant friend and a 90-year old shut-in. My
> son wasn't with me when I cooked or baked, and he wasn't with me when I
> delivered, but I'm still worried about them.
This is actually one of the things that mystifies me a bit,
in that there are many who accept the notion that one must
vaccinate for rubella because of the risk of getting it while
pregnant (or giving it to a pregnant woman), but don't accept
the same argument for varicella (which can cause congenital
varicella syndrome in the early trimesters--fortunately, a
nine month pregnant woman wouldn't have that problem if
infected, and faces the lesser risk of transmitting it to
the baby and potentially overwhelming the immune system if
it's a severe case). I understand some wanting to get wild
chicken pox rather than the vaccine, which is easier to do
than with rubella, but it's getting more challenging to acquire
it in the wild and there is some risk (most of the hospitalizations
for chicken pox have been for children under 10, so it's not that
it's a disease that is *only* serious for older kids/adults).
Best wishes,
Ericka
Delenn
> Delenn wrote:
>
>> That's exactly why I'm keeping him away from others. On Saturday,
>> just before his pox erupted (and the blizzard hit), I brought a batch
>> of soup and bread to a nine-month pregnant friend and a 90-year old
>> shut-in. My son wasn't with me when I cooked or baked, and he wasn't
>> with me when I delivered, but I'm still worried about them.
>
>
> This is actually one of the things that mystifies me a bit,
> in that there are many who accept the notion that one must
> vaccinate for rubella because of the risk of getting it while
> pregnant (or giving it to a pregnant woman), but don't accept
> the same argument for varicella (which can cause congenital
> varicella syndrome in the early trimesters--fortunately, a
> nine month pregnant woman wouldn't have that problem if
> infected, and faces the lesser risk of transmitting it to
> the baby and potentially overwhelming the immune system if
> it's a severe case).
I honestly don't know anything about congenital varicella syndrome and
haven't ever heard of anyone who has it. Whereas the dangers of rubella
are better known.
A local woman lost her fetus to whooping cough a few years ago that she
caught from an unimmunized child at a school play. The parents of the
unimmunized child declined the vaccine for religious reasons and another
woman lost her baby. It was bad.
But even in that aftermath I never heard about varicella. Maybe because
at the time the chicken pox vaccine was not yet available.
Delenn
Banty
I haven't heard of a teratogenic effect from the chicken pox, which is one of
the big concerns wiht rubella. But that's not the only concern, as you're
beginning to realize from your visit to a household with people who really
shouldn't be exposed to this kind of illness.
Babies and children still die from pertussis and chicken pox, the chicken pox
due to complications. I do recall that one misc.kids regular some years back
lost her child due to an encephilitis from a wild chicken pox infection.
Think: if that child had been at your chicken pox party....
The vaccine, although not perfect, has benefits which greatly outweigh any
concern - it's a fair amount of protection to those who are older and haven't
gotten the wild disease, it's protection for those in households with
immunocompromised people, those who are pregnancy and those who are elderly.
But a resurgence in the wild chicken pox rate will be a problem for those people
from people who are not in that household.
Do those who plan chicken pox parties, take it upon themselves to notify
susceptible people in their area? What would they say - "stay off our street
we're doing the chicken pox thang, and BTW these are the grocery stores in which
we shop - stay away from those in case one of our accompanying children are
pre-sypmtomatic."??
There is a reason we take steps to stamp out disease. Unfortunately, because of
the very success of vaccines, some have forgotten those reasons.
Banty
Ericka Kammerer
> I honestly don't know anything about congenital varicella syndrome and
> haven't ever heard of anyone who has it. Whereas the dangers of rubella
> are better known.
That may well be, although sounds like it *should* be better
known. In both cases, it's most dangerous in the first half of
pregnancy. The incidence of congenital varicella syndrome in the US is
about 5-10 per 10,000 pregnancies, while the incidence of congenital
rubella syndrome is much lower (about 1-8 per million births)--
primarily due to vaccination. The risk of the baby having
congenital varicella syndrome if the mother has chicken pox is lower
than the risk of the baby getting congenital rubella syndrome if
the mother gets rubella, but many more women get chicken pox
while pregnant. CVS can have some pretty severe outcomes, so
it's nothing to sneeze at.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> I haven't heard of a teratogenic effect from the chicken pox, which is one of
> the big concerns wiht rubella.
Wow, I had thought this was better known. Here are a couple of
websites:
http://my.webmd.com/hw/raising_a_family/nord1099.asp
http://www.pediatriconcall.com/fordoctor/DiseasesandCondition/varicellainfectinpreg.asp
"An excellent review of fetal varicella syndrome (FVS) has been recently
published (16). The syndrome is a consequence of transplacental transfer
of maternal varicella infection occurring during the first 20 weeks of
pregnancy, although a recent report (17) has cited the occurrence of the
syndrome after maternal varicella at 25 weeks of gestation. The
anomalies associated with intrauterine infection with varicella were
first described in 1947 (18) and the existence of a fetal varicella
syndrome was initially postulated in 1974 (19). Low birth weight is an
almost constant feature of the FVS. The other features can be grouped as
dermatological, neurological, ophthalmological, skeletal,
gastrointestinal and genito-urinary abnormalities.
Cicatrical skin lesions with underlying hypoplasia of tissues are
well-recognized manifestations of the syndrome. At birth these areas may
look like area of skin loss that became cicatricial after several weeks.
Characteristically, the skin scars are depressed, pigmented and often
have a zigzag configuration. The neurological abnormalities include
mental retardation, seizures and cortical atrophy. Spinal cord atrophy,
limb paresis and cerebellar aplasia have also been reported. Other
neurological manifestations include hypotonia, hypereflexia,
intermittent myoclonic seizures, dorsal radiculitis, Horner's syndrome,
deafness, developmental delay and learning disabilities.
Ophthalmological abnormalities associated with the syndrome include
chorioretinitis, nystagmus, anisocoria, microphthalmia, cataract,
corneal opacities, squint, hypoplasia of the optic disc and optic
atrophy. The skeletal anomalies include limb hypoplasia, equinovarus,
calcaneovalgus and hypoplasia of mandible, clavicle, scapula, ribs,
fingers and toes. These anomalies arise either directly due to
cicatricial lesions causing reduction abnormalities, or could occur
secondary to denervation of limbs, which leads to diminished muscle mass
and poor growth. Gastrointestinal abnormalities associated with the
syndrome include gastroesophageal reflux, duodenal stenosis, jejunal
dilatation, microcolon and anal sphincter malfunction. These anomalies
probably result due to the damage to the autonomic nervous system and
the spinal cord. Neurogenic bladder has been described with FVS."
Ericka Kammerer
> That may well be, although sounds like it *should* be better
> known. In both cases, it's most dangerous in the first half of
> pregnancy. The incidence of congenital varicella syndrome in the US is
> about 5-10 per 10,000 pregnancies, while the incidence of congenital
> rubella syndrome is much lower (about 1-8 per million births)--
> primarily due to vaccination.
Sorry--in the interests of being accurate, I have to
update this. The incidence of varicella infection in pregnant
women in the US is 5-10 per 10,000 pregnancies. The incidence
of CVS is around .5-1 per 100,000--making it still more common
than CRS, but much less common than 5-10 per 10,000 pregnancies.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Delenn
> Sorry--in the interests of being accurate, I have to
> update this. The incidence of varicella infection in pregnant
> women in the US is 5-10 per 10,000 pregnancies. The incidence
> of CVS is around .5-1 per 100,000--making it still more common
> than CRS, but much less common than 5-10 per 10,000 pregnancies.
If this is primarily a first trimester thing then it raises the question
of how many first trimester miscarriages are as a result of this.
First trimester exposure would be hard to determine, in that I don't
know who is in their first trimester to call them to tell them that DS
was contagious on Friday.
But I called my son's private pre-school/kindergarten to let them know
he was contagious on Friday, and was surprised to discover that they'd
had a case there two weeks ago. Well, one mystery solved. But I'm
troubled that I hadn't heard about it. (That's another issue and
involves my husband's communications skills so I'll stop that line of
discussion right here.)
I'm glad to read more on this subject, because it's coming up a lot. My
clients are calling to schedule appointments with me and I have to
explain to them all that we've got an active case of chicken pox so they
should only come if they don't mind being exposed. It's lead to a lot
of conversation on the subject.
Meanwhile, my small boy is doing well, so all the horror stories aren't
resonating very well. I just keep having an irrational fear of being
pregnant. Both of my other kids got their cases right about the time I
discovered I was pregnant with the next child. It would not be as much
fun to discover this now that we are 40 & 50 years old. :-)
Delenn, the 40 year old
Ericka Kammerer
> If this is primarily a first trimester thing then it raises the question
> of how many first trimester miscarriages are as a result of this.
I *think* that the worst time is 14-20 weeks, IIRC. It
can cause miscarriages.
> Meanwhile, my small boy is doing well, so all the horror stories aren't
> resonating very well.
It's wonderful he's doing well, as do most kids. The severe
cases are by no means common--it's just that one never knows when
they'll strike.
> I just keep having an irrational fear of being
> pregnant. Both of my other kids got their cases right about the time I
> discovered I was pregnant with the next child. It would not be as much
> fun to discover this now that we are 40 & 50 years old. :-)
;-) I'll bet! I'll cross my fingers for you ;-)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Barbara Bomberger
wrote:
>On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 16:12:19 -0600, "Tori M."
><jeff...@Obliviouslakeland.ws> wrote:
>>I did not think that "I dont want X vaccine" would work.. That was before I
>>started hanging out here;) I supose I COULD let Xavier and future kids get
>>it naturaly.. hehe I believe MY school policy states that it is not a
>>neccesary vaccine to attend... hehe... Thank you for making me think.. lol
>>
>>Tori
>
>Ok, I was just wondering! I thought your daughter wasn't school-aged
>yet but wasn't sure.
>I'd rather mine get the pox also but my oldest is 9.5 and hasn't yet!!
>They're all at the safest age to get it and I'd hate for them not to
>and have to keep getting the vaccine the rest of their lives once
>they're teens. (isn't it every ten years?)
>Marie
My son is fifteen and was exposed to siblings with it, day care with
it and God knows who else and still did not get it. And when he had a
titre, he wasnt immune either. so he had the vaccine finally
barb
dragonlady
Banty <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Do those who plan chicken pox parties, take it upon themselves to notify
> susceptible people in their area? What would they say - "stay off our street
> we're doing the chicken pox thang, and BTW these are the grocery stores in
> which
> we shop - stay away from those in case one of our accompanying children are
> pre-sypmtomatic."??
Nothing like this! I kept my kids out of public once I knew they had
chicken pox. And on the (rare) occassion I was able to expose them
deliberately, I did my best to keep them away from other kids or adults
who didn't want to be exposed during the incubation period -- I didn't
take them to church, it was never when they were in school, if anyone
invited us to their house (or asked to come over) I made sure I told
them my kids had been exposed to chicken pox.
Unfortunately, two of them came down with a case the first day of a
camp, and I didn't recognize it (it had been miserably hot, and I
thought they had a heat rash). But a friend recognized it at breakfast,
and they were sent home -- by then they'd exposed a LOT of people, the
night before (when they were asymptomatic) and that morning. I have no
idea where they picked it up.
Remember, my kids predate the time the vaccine was available in this
country -- the ONLY way to get immunity was to have the disease. I have
absolutely no idea what I would do now, and if asked for advice, I
wouldn't give any.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
animzmirot
"Sue" <sburk...@wideopenwest.com> wrote in message
news:eJKdnelpiYm...@wideopenwest.com...
I think most parents are pretty responsible in this day and age about
immunocompromised people being exposed to CP. It's very clearly stated by
pediatricians that you should NOT take your children out as long as they
still have exploding pistules. Once they're crusted over, they're not
contageous any longer, but even so, I think most people err on the side of
caution. When my kids had the CP, I took them to the outdoor sculpture
garden at the DeCordova Museum once they were well crusted over and even
outside in a big park, I got yelled at by another parent who thought I was
being irresponsible. I wasn't, in fact, but it was pretty shocking to me and
we stayed in until everyone was healed completely in order to avoid further
confrontations.
I think most parents who do expose their kids to the disease do so with full
knowledge of what they're doing and the dangers involved.
Welches
to talk/walk etc. again afterwards. It affected her brain. She's okay now.
But it's not just made up!!
Debbie
Welches
> Delenn wrote:
>
>> If this is primarily a first trimester thing then it raises the question
>> of how many first trimester miscarriages are as a result of this.
>
> I *think* that the worst time is 14-20 weeks, IIRC. It
> can cause miscarriages.
>
premature birth, and also the baby can be born with it, which obviously can
be pretty nasty. I think if they've contracted it in utro it can be
particularly bad too.
That's what I was told during pregnancy anyway :-)
Debbie
Ericka Kammerer
Later in pregnancy, the problem isn't congenital varicella
syndrome, it's (as you say) the possibility that the baby will
contract the virus and be overwhelmed by it. Varicella related
pneumonia is also a risk at that stage. This doesn't have the
mortality or morbidity rate of CVS, but it is a significant risk.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Welches
that.
Debbie
Rosalie B.
>In article <ct3a8...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> Banty <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>> Do those who plan chicken pox parties, take it upon themselves to notify
>> susceptible people in their area? What would they say - "stay off our street
>> we're doing the chicken pox thang, and BTW these are the grocery stores in
>> which
>> we shop - stay away from those in case one of our accompanying children are
>> pre-sypmtomatic."??
>
>
>Nothing like this! I kept my kids out of public once I knew they had
>chicken pox. And on the (rare) occassion I was able to expose them
>deliberately, I did my best to keep them away from other kids or adults
>who didn't want to be exposed during the incubation period -- I didn't
>take them to church, it was never when they were in school, if anyone
>invited us to their house (or asked to come over) I made sure I told
>them my kids had been exposed to chicken pox.
>
>Unfortunately, two of them came down with a case the first day of a
>camp, and I didn't recognize it (it had been miserably hot, and I
>thought they had a heat rash). But a friend recognized it at breakfast,
>and they were sent home -- by then they'd exposed a LOT of people, the
>night before (when they were asymptomatic) and that morning. I have no
>idea where they picked it up.
I remember now - my kids came down with it on the LAST day of Vacation
Bible School. I think they must have picked it up in school because
VBS was right after the end of school and was only for a week. I
figured everyone in the VBS had been exposed already, so I sent them
to the last day.
>
>Remember, my kids predate the time the vaccine was available in this
>country -- the ONLY way to get immunity was to have the disease. I have
>absolutely no idea what I would do now, and if asked for advice, I
>wouldn't give any.
Ditto. My kids (the two I'm talking about) are now ages 43 and 41.
grandma Rosalie
Renee
When I was a kid, there was another kid who had to stay at the hospital
for weeks because of the chicken pox. This was in the early 80's.
Renee
lenny fackler
Delenn wrote:
> Hi, I'm a lurker these days but used to be a regular when my first
two
> were in [cloth] diapers in the early 90's. Now my kids are ages 14,
12
> and 5.
>
> My five year old presented with chicken pox last night. I joyfully
> started calling around to arrange playdates - and we can't find
anyone
> who wants it.
>
> This is really weird to me. Back when my older two were getting it
the
> shot was looming and no one wanted to give the shot and the word was
out
> on the street to pass along clothing, set up playdates (if the kid
felt
> well enough) and have them share sippy cups.
>
> Now everyone I've called acts like I'm some sort of weird mother.
>
> Has the attitude changed so much on this? I recall the consensus
being
> that the vaccine would need booster shots and it was better to get it
> naturally if you could. We held off as long as we could and he's
> entering public school next Fall so this feels like the nick of time
> (the public school will require vaccination.)
>
> I keep hearing stories about kids vaccinated as toddlers now.
>
> When did this change? I feel so disconnected from this issue.
>
> Delenn
No offense, but you do sound a bit weird on this issue. At least I
would think so if you called my house excitedly, wanting to expose my
kids to chicken pox.
It's surprising that your pediatrician didn't offer the vaccine for
your 5 year old. Hopefully dealing with the misery of chicken pox is a
thing of the past. If they need a booster in a few years, so what?
It's much better than getting sick.
Delenn
And I know of a kid who was going down the slide in her backyard and the
hood of her jacket caughte on the slide and she was hanged to death
right there with her father and brothers playing in the same yard not
noticing.
I also know of a kid who swallowed a bic pen cap before they had little
holes in them and it got stuck in his airway and he suffocated to death
in front of every EMT in town.
Want more?
The point is that we know gruesome stories of kids dying horribly, but
it isn't common.
Delenn
Delenn
Fair enough.
Delenn
Nan
scribbled:
>And I know of a kid who was going down the slide in her backyard and the
>hood of her jacket caughte on the slide and she was hanged to death
>right there with her father and brothers playing in the same yard not
>noticing.
>
>I also know of a kid who swallowed a bic pen cap before they had little
>holes in them and it got stuck in his airway and he suffocated to death
>in front of every EMT in town.
>
>Want more?
>
>The point is that we know gruesome stories of kids dying horribly, but
>it isn't common.
>
>Delenn
However, your examples are purely accidents, while forced exposure to
a potentially deadly disease, or choosing not to vaccinate, isn't.
Nan
eliz...@yahoo.com
Delenn wrote:
> And I know of a kid who was going down the slide in her backyard and
the
> hood of her jacket caughte on the slide and she was hanged to death
> right there with her father and brothers playing in the same yard not
> noticing.
>
> I also know of a kid who swallowed a bic pen cap before they had
little
> holes in them and it got stuck in his airway and he suffocated to
death
> in front of every EMT in town.
>
> Want more?
>
> The point is that we know gruesome stories of kids dying horribly,
but
> it isn't common.
Sure, these things are rare, but when we know of a way to prevent
even those rare deaths we do it. That's *why* those pen caps have
holes in them now, and that's why hooded sweatshirts for little kids
don't have drawstrings any more (although I don't know if that was
a factor in the death you speak of) and that's why we have a chicken
pox vaccine that many parents would rather their kids get than the
chicken pox. When there's not much of a downside to the risk
prevention, we do it. I sometimes think we don't pay attention
enough to the downside, like lack of exercise for kids because their
parents are worried about child snatchers, but when it comes to
CP vaccine vs. CP I think the vaccine is safer, even if neither risk
is huge.
When chicken pox was all wild, it made sense to expose your kids
because even though there was a small risk to kids there was a much
higher risk to a person who didn't get the virus until adulthood.
Now there's an even lower-risk way to avoid that, so why not take
it?
Beth
Delenn
> When chicken pox was all wild, it made sense to expose your kids
> because even though there was a small risk to kids there was a much
> higher risk to a person who didn't get the virus until adulthood.
> Now there's an even lower-risk way to avoid that, so why not take
> it?
I think it comes down precisely to my concern that the vaccine might
leave my kids vulnerable to a wild case of chicken pox when they're
adults (and is therefore more dangerous.)
I had a disconcerting experience of going to get a wedding license and
being told that my immunization for rubella hadn't lasted and I needed
to be re-immunized before I could marry AND they made me sign a
positively feudal document swearing I wouldn't get pregnant for six
months. I actually had intended to get pregnant (that's why we were
bothering to marry, but that's another story) and being forced to use
birth control for six months because my vaccine wore off is still a
humiliating experience I recall vividly.
My little boy had a mild fever one night. He looks pretty ghastly and I
haven't been able to make my normal rounds to the grocery store, library
and YMCA because he's home with me. I've had to tell all my clients
that they need to know there's chicken pox in the house before they come
over, but this is turning out to be a nearly unnoticeable event.
It still remains to be determined if wild chicken pox in a five year old
still conveys lifelong immunity when he grows up without the constant
immunity challenges of wild chicken pox. It's never been done and we'll
find out. But all in all I'm glad he got them naturally. It made sense
to me from a risk/benefit point of view.
Delenn
eliz...@yahoo.com
Delenn wrote:
> It still remains to be determined if wild chicken pox in a five year
old
> still conveys lifelong immunity when he grows up without the constant
> immunity challenges of wild chicken pox. It's never been done and
we'll
> find out. But all in all I'm glad he got them naturally. It made
sense
> to me from a risk/benefit point of view.
That is, of course, up to you. In my judgement the stats argue against
you, and that may explain why you didn't find any takers.
Beth