I feel vindicated
Tess
little comments about how Michael (who is 8 1/2 months old) wasn't
crawling. He rolled around to get what he wanted instead, and it
didn't bother me in the least, but she kept on about how he was
"slow" to start crawling, etc. Any reminders that each baby is
unique and will progress at the pace that is right for them was met
with a muttered comment and shake of her head. Y'see, my SIL's baby
was an early crawler, so any babies who don't nail this milestone as
quickly are inferior in her mind.
**History lesson: We've clashed before, over breastfeeding, when he
should start solids, and other issues, and the only thing she's
responded to is being told to step back and shut up. Subtle and
polite do *not* work on this woman.)**
Anyway, Michael started rocking back and forth on his hands and
knees last Saturday, then crawled for the first time on Monday. He's
now using the sofa to pull himself up onto his knees on a regular
basis, and has managed to get his feet under him once today. So
much for slow, eh? He was just waiting for the right moment.
Anyway, I just wanted to brag on the little guy. He took his time
getting there, but he made it! I can't wait for her next comment
about how he needs to be seen by a doctor because of his "slow
progress".
~Tess
Cheryl S.
> Anyway, I just wanted to brag on the little guy. He took his time
> getting there, but he made it! I can't wait for her next comment
> about how he needs to be seen by a doctor because of his "slow
> progress".
Yay for Michael! I can sympathize - I have a SIL with a baby 15 days
older than mine, who has been unbelievably early at everything, while my
DD was dead-on average for everything. My niece was walking by the time
my DD could crawl. Fortunately all my ILs are *much* nicer than your
MIL sounds, and never make comments.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 15 months
"I believe in the sun even when it does not shine.
I believe in love even when I do not feel it.
I believe in G-d even when He is silent."
-- Inscription on the walls of a cellar in Cologne,
Germany, where Jews hid from the Nazis during W.W.II
Tess
"Cheryl S." <spamf...@address.com> wrote :
> Tess wrote:
> > Anyway, I just wanted to brag on the little guy. He took his
time
> > getting there, but he made it! I can't wait for her next comment
> > about how he needs to be seen by a doctor because of his "slow
> > progress".
>
> Yay for Michael! I can sympathize - I have a SIL with a baby 15
days
> older than mine, who has been unbelievably early at everything,
while my
> DD was dead-on average for everything. My niece was walking by
the time
> my DD could crawl. Fortunately all my ILs are *much* nicer than
your
> MIL sounds, and never make comments.
It's funny how "average" is such a common word when people talk
about babies, yet so many of them have their own idea of what it
means.
I want to think that my MIL actually means well, in her own warped
way, she is just convinced that she is the ultimate source of baby
wisdom, and her way is the only correct way. She started nagging us
about giving Michael rice cereal to help him sleep at 6 weeks old,
and had a fit when we didn't start solids promptly at four months
old. My SIL has done everything she has suggested, so it really
gripes her that we choose not to follow her advice on everything. I
tried the nod-smile-ignore response with her, but it wasn't enough,
so we've had some pretty nasty exchanges =(
Anyway, hopefully she'll ease up before things get really strained
between us and visits taper off to nothing. I'd like Michael to grow
up knowing all of his grandparents.
Banty
>
>Up until this last week, my harpy of a MIL has been making catty
>little comments about how Michael (who is 8 1/2 months old) wasn't
>crawling. He rolled around to get what he wanted instead, and it
>didn't bother me in the least, but she kept on about how he was
>"slow" to start crawling, etc. Any reminders that each baby is
>unique and will progress at the pace that is right for them was met
>with a muttered comment and shake of her head. Y'see, my SIL's baby
>was an early crawler, so any babies who don't nail this milestone as
>quickly are inferior in her mind.
>
>**History lesson: We've clashed before, over breastfeeding, when he
>should start solids, and other issues, and the only thing she's
>responded to is being told to step back and shut up. Subtle and
>polite do *not* work on this woman.)**
>
>Anyway, Michael started rocking back and forth on his hands and
>knees last Saturday, then crawled for the first time on Monday. He's
>now using the sofa to pull himself up onto his knees on a regular
>basis, and has managed to get his feet under him once today. So
>much for slow, eh? He was just waiting for the right moment.
>
> Anyway, I just wanted to brag on the little guy.
Naw - you also wanted to rag on your MIL.
But that's OK :-)
Banty
animzmirot
"Tess" <te...@tampabay.appendix.rr.com> wrote in message
news:20IU8.149451$db.21...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
A piece of unsolicited advice. Every time your MIL makes a comment, sigh
heavily and say "Yes, I know what you mean, but her pediatrician has been so
sure Michael is on target for X milestone and has encouraged me to try Y
(with Y being whatever YOU want to do) and I've agreed to follow the
pediatrician's orders. This validates your MIL's stupid suggestions and
gripes, completely and totally takes the onus off of you, the new mom, and
dumps it squarely on your pediatrician, who she isn't going to be
complaining to.
Marjorie
>
Kmquinn2000
:)
Your MIL would hate me ... lol ... My DD NEVER did crawl. She rolled to where
ever she needed to go and then walked. (at 14 months!)
Now she is 3 and RUNS everywhere!
~Kat
Glen Appleby
<vze4...@verizon.net> wrote:
>A piece of unsolicited advice. Every time your MIL makes a comment, sigh
>heavily and say "Yes, I know what you mean, but her pediatrician has been so
>sure Michael is on target for X milestone and has encouraged me to try Y
>(with Y being whatever YOU want to do) and I've agreed to follow the
>pediatrician's orders. This validates your MIL's stupid suggestions and
>gripes, completely and totally takes the onus off of you, the new mom, and
>dumps it squarely on your pediatrician, who she isn't going to be
>complaining to.
Good suggestion.
If I might, I'd like to lay out another option: Next time she
starts in on you, pull out yer .357 and place a piece of lead
squarely between her eyes. When hubbie comes home, say "She made
me do it!"
You'd be right of course (on both counts), but just try to
convince *him*.
OK, best stick with Marjorie's suggestion.
"Who we are and who we become depends, in part, on whom we love."
-- "A General Theory Of Love" Thanks, Mom
______________________________________________________________
Glen Appleby gl...@armory.com <HTTP://www.armory.com/~glena/>
CN Haynes
> Up until this last week, my harpy of a MIL has been making catty
> little comments about how Michael (who is 8 1/2 months old) wasn't
Our first two kids started to crawl at 8 months and walk at 13 months (oh
and run at 14 months)... all within the range for normal development.
Number 3 child crawled at 4 months and walked at 10 months! You'd think
we'd be delighteed... but we weren't. That meant that the safety gates had
to go up early... and that her motor skill milestones were ahead of
intellectual milestone --- it was more work for the PARENTS (also with
reminding of older kids to close gates)... the kids who started to be mobile
later had 4 more months worth of mental development to work with.
Sharon L Bailey
(my brother included) who never crawled - went straight from rolling
around to standing, cruising, and walking.
Sharon
Mom to James 6.2.00
Rosalie B.
>"Tess" <te...@tampabay.appendix.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:ADHU8.149313$db.21...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>> Up until this last week, my harpy of a MIL has been making catty
>> little comments about how Michael (who is 8 1/2 months old) wasn't
>> crawling. ...
>
your relationship to think of her that way. It's OK to disagree with her
POV without being insulting. Isn't that what we want our kids to do?
She may also be of an age to remember a time when reading problems were
linked to lack of crawling. Those studies are (I'm told) discredited now,
but people in our day sometimes made heroic efforts to 'reprogram' kids
that were considered not to have crawling time.
>Our first two kids started to crawl at 8 months and walk at 13 months (oh
>and run at 14 months)... all within the range for normal development.
>
>Number 3 child crawled at 4 months and walked at 10 months! You'd think
>we'd be delighteed... but we weren't. That meant that the safety gates had
>to go up early... and that her motor skill milestones were ahead of
>intellectual milestone --- it was more work for the PARENTS (also with
>reminding of older kids to close gates)... the kids who started to be mobile
>later had 4 more months worth of mental development to work with.
My #1 and #3 stood up and walked at almost exactly a year. #2 was climbing
out of pens and walking by 8 months - a really stressful time as you've
said. I'm not sure exactly when #4 started. I thought he started walking
about 9 months, but his #2 sister may have helped him along.
grandma Rosalie
CBI
"Tess" <te...@tampabay.appendix.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ADHU8.149313$db.21...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> Up until this last week, my harpy of a MIL has been making catty
> little comments about how Michael (who is 8 1/2 months old) wasn't
> crawling.
My favorite response to this type of thing is to just ask her exactly what
she thinks you should do about it. Even of the kid is a bit slow (and I am
not saying he is) there really is not much to be done.
> He rolled around to get what he wanted instead, and it
> didn't bother me in the least,
Im convinced that kids tend to be slow to develop other methods of
locomotion if the are getting where they need to go. My doughter was quick
to crawl (I think because she was so small) and quick to pull up and cruise
but then halted. She took forever to learn to walk (I think) because she was
so darn fast at crawling. She would take one or two steps, get frustrated,
and intentionally get down on all fours and get there faster. Maybe Michael
was doing the same thing with his rolling.
> I can't wait for her next comment
> about how he needs to be seen by a doctor because of his "slow
> progress".
Just tell her he has been and the doc is not concerned. Then if she has any
reservations invite her to contact him (or her) directly to discuss it. If
she takes you up on it you will have won the argument but possibly lost a
doctor :-)
--
CBI
fuzzymum1
> locomotion if the are getting where they need to go. My doughter was quick
> to crawl (I think because she was so small) and quick to pull up and
cruise
> but then halted. She took forever to learn to walk (I think) because she
was
> so darn fast at crawling. She would take one or two steps, get frustrated,
> and intentionally get down on all fours and get there faster. Maybe
Michael
> was doing the same thing with his rolling.
This is what we believe too, both of our sons were slow to walk, both
crawled at around 8-9 months and were very efficient crawlers. #1 walked at
17 months and #2 walked at 18months. They didn't seem to see the need to
walk, when crawling was perfectly ok.
Jane
enigma
$db.21...@twister.tampabay.rr.com:
> Up until this last week, my harpy of a MIL has been making catty
> little comments about how Michael (who is 8 1/2 months old) wasn't
> crawling. He rolled around to get what he wanted instead, and it
> didn't bother me in the least, but she kept on about how he was
> "slow" to start crawling, etc. Any reminders that each baby is
> unique and will progress at the pace that is right for them was met
> with a muttered comment and shake of her head. Y'see, my SIL's baby
> was an early crawler, so any babies who don't nail this milestone as
> quickly are inferior in her mind.
>
> **History lesson: We've clashed before, over breastfeeding, when he
> should start solids, and other issues, and the only thing she's
> responded to is being told to step back and shut up. Subtle and
> polite do *not* work on this woman.)**
congrats to Michael!
in a way you're lucky your MIL is just verbally comparing. my SIL & BIL
have a daughter 6 months younger than my son. because Boo was walking at
8 months they were trying to make thier poor child walk at 4 months...
she could barely support her own head & they'd hold her up & let go.
BTW, she started crawling at just about a year & is walking now at 14
months. i don't know *what* they were thinking when she was younger (i
got my MIL to talk to them before the kid got hurt). baby developmental
milestones isn't a competition.
lee <who's kid doesn't talk yet, but his cousin never shuts up (g)>
--
The most effective kind of education is that a child should play amongst
lovely things. -Plato, philosopher (427-347 BCE)
CPPfister
>linked to lack of crawling. Those studies are (I'm told) discredited now,
>but people in our day sometimes made heroic efforts to 'reprogram' kids
>that were considered not to have crawling time.
Which brings up a question I have. I overheard an acquaintance talking about
his baby to another member of the choir. He said the baby will pull up and
then walk wherever they want to go. The dad said that they would take the
baby back and make him crawl instead. The other choir member (an older
woman) nodded understandingly. When I asked why on earth they would
do that, the woman turned to me and said, "Babies need to crawl to get
the left-right motion down. It makes them more coordinated." Now, I had
never heard that a baby who can already walk should be forced to crawl,
but I didn't say anything because I thought maybe they knew something
I didn't.
How about it? Is there a problem with babies that don't crawl before
walking?
Caroline
Roseann
"CPPfister" <cppf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020704102331...@mb-mj.aol.com...
I sure hope not, cos Michael *never* crawled. He walked at 9 months, after
having done very little in terms of movement. He is now a typical 5 year old
and I don't know that he is any more or less coordinated as any other 5 year
old.
--
Roseann
see us at
http://www.picturetrail.com/wittemom
or
http://photos.yahoo.com/wittemom
Mrs. Zebra
> Up until this last week, my harpy of a MIL has been making catty
> little comments about how Michael (who is 8 1/2 months old) wasn't
> crawling.
I know lots of babies who didfn't crawl until 10-12 months old. Michael
actually rates as about perfectly average IME.
I wonder when your MIL will expect him to start walking, talking &
counting! -j
Richard Steven Walz
Some advantages have been seen in kids who crawl first, but there has NEVER
been a study that shows you can CAUSE that by trying to COMPEL crawling.
A few older kids and adults have corrected some interesting problems by
going back to crawling, but that's a bit of an apocryphal psych anecdote
that has an uncertain meaning.
Steve
Alison Tooth
> Which brings up a question I have. I overheard an acquaintance talking about
> his baby to another member of the choir. He said the baby will pull up and
> then walk wherever they want to go. The dad said that they would take the
> baby back and make him crawl instead. The other choir member (an older
> woman) nodded understandingly. When I asked why on earth they would
> do that, the woman turned to me and said, "Babies need to crawl to get
> the left-right motion down. It makes them more coordinated." Now, I had
> never heard that a baby who can already walk should be forced to crawl,
> but I didn't say anything because I thought maybe they knew something
> I didn't.
>
> How about it? Is there a problem with babies that don't crawl before
> walking?
Sounds weird!
Anecdotal evidence only:
My son hated crawling. He did it, as little as possible, for about a
month, and hardly ever did it 'properly' - he would generally have one
leg up, one knee down. He walked just after 9 months, and now at almost
21 months is IMO *very* well-coordinated - climbs everywhere, can catch
a (easy) ball, has a great throw, etc.
My daughter who crawled for the longest (4 and a bit months) is
average-to-reasonably-well-coordinated, I'd say, and the one who crawled
for the median length is the least well-coordinated out of my 3. (But
she has known her left and right for quite a few months now, which
impresses me about a just-turned 4 yo!)
--
Alison
http://www.theportico.co.uk
Welches
> How about it? Is there a problem with babies that don't crawl before
> walking?
>
mild dyslexia.
The person that told me hadn't crawled as a child, and thought they had
this. However, if this is true, I don't see how making a child crawl would
remove the dyslexia.
I know there is a theoretical link between being ambidextrous and dyslexia
(again mild) I may have this-I use either hand for most things, having a
slight right dominance, but only in certain things, and I can't spell
(hurrah for spell check). But I crawled fine, as far as I am aware. But this
sounds as though it could be similar.
I'm not sure I agree with the theory, but I thought I would throw it in as a
suggestion.
Debbie
Mummy to Rachel (27/10/00)
Sharon L Bailey
> How about it? Is there a problem with babies that don't crawl before
> walking?
>
> Caroline
>
My younger brother never crawled, and now he is a successful teacher, who
recently earned an M.A., so I don't think the lack of crawling hurt him!
I have never seen conclusive studies that associate lack of crawling to
other developmental/learning problems down the road. And as I mentioned
in an earlier post, crawling is not considered a milestone, like rolling
over or walking is.
Qarin Van Brink
>>She may also be of an age to remember a time when reading problems were
>>linked to lack of crawling. Those studies are (I'm told) discredited now,
>>but people in our day sometimes made heroic efforts to 'reprogram' kids
>>that were considered not to have crawling time.
>
>Which brings up a question I have. I overheard an acquaintance talking about
>his baby to another member of the choir. He said the baby will pull up and
>then walk wherever they want to go. The dad said that they would take the
>baby back and make him crawl instead.
I don't know about this *helping* anything, but I can certainly imagine
it leading to other pyschological and trust issues. Even IF crawling was
somehow necessary or better and its advantages could be conferred
without it being the natural progression of that particular child,
making a baby retrace his steps after he's walked somewhere? Thanks,
Dad, for making me do this the *right* way! Blech.
-----
Qarin
Mom to Amelia (working on crawling herself), b.11.13.01
CBI
> walking?
>
No.
--
CBI
Tess
"Banty" <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote :
<snip>
> > Anyway, I just wanted to brag on the little guy.
>
> Naw - you also wanted to rag on your MIL.
Yeah, that too =)
It just gets a bit old taking the little catty remarks and trying
to stay civil.
Tess
"Rosalie B." <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote :
> Of course you MIL may really be a harpy, but it's probably not
helpful to
> your relationship to think of her that way. It's OK to disagree
with her
> POV without being insulting. Isn't that what we want our kids to
do?
I'm civil to her, which is as much as she'll get out of me at this
point =)
I've vowed to never say anything negative about her in front of my
son, and I go out of my way to keep my mouth shut most of the time,
but every now and then, I just need to blow off steam.
> She may also be of an age to remember a time when reading problems
were
> linked to lack of crawling. Those studies are (I'm told)
discredited now,
> but people in our day sometimes made heroic efforts to 'reprogram'
kids
> that were considered not to have crawling time.
There's a long, nasty history between us, and the crawling thing is
merely the most recent. I think the most diplomatic way to put it is
that she, um... like to stir things up. It's really the only *nice*
way to put it.
Tess
"Mrs. Zebra" <mama....@ntlworld.com> wrote :
> I know lots of babies who didfn't crawl until 10-12 months old.
Michael
> actually rates as about perfectly average IME.
>
> I wonder when your MIL will expect him to start walking, talking &
> counting! -j
Dunno, but she swears her kids were toilet trained before they were
a year old, so that may turn into another nagging point =(
Tess
"enigma" <eni...@empire.net> wrote :
> congrats to Michael!
> in a way you're lucky your MIL is just verbally comparing. my SIL
& BIL
> have a daughter 6 months younger than my son. because Boo was
walking at
> 8 months they were trying to make thier poor child walk at 4
months...
> she could barely support her own head & they'd hold her up & let
go.
> BTW, she started crawling at just about a year & is walking now at
14
> months. i don't know *what* they were thinking when she was
younger (i
> got my MIL to talk to them before the kid got hurt). baby
developmental
> milestones isn't a competition.
> lee <who's kid doesn't talk yet, but his cousin never shuts up
(g)>
Yeesh, who started the whole Baby Olympic competitions anyway? My
SIL's daughter didn't start talking "on schedule", so they started
freaking out over it and wondering if there was something wrong with
her. I thought it was more likely she just didn't have anything to
say yet. She's healthy, and seems happy, but they had to make sure
she didn't lag behind the friends' kids. *pfeh*
Tess
"fuzzymum1" <ne...@janeLEGlangdon.co.uk> wrote :
I'm all for whatever works for the baby and makes them happy. If
they were still not walking when it was time for them to start
school, that would be a bit different, but my mom says that my
sisters and I were all *very* different when it came to which skills
we developed first and at what age. We all learned to walk and talk
eventually, so everybody is happy.
Tess
"CBI" <00...@mindspring.com> wrote :
>
>
> "Tess" <te...@tampabay.appendix.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:ADHU8.149313$db.21...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> > Up until this last week, my harpy of a MIL has been making catty
> > little comments about how Michael (who is 8 1/2 months old)
wasn't
> > crawling.
>
> My favorite response to this type of thing is to just ask her
exactly what
> she thinks you should do about it. Even of the kid is a bit slow
(and I am
> not saying he is) there really is not much to be done.
Exactly my point. He'll learn new things as he's ready and able, so
I'm not about to try to push him to learn tricks to amuse company.
> > He rolled around to get what he wanted instead, and it
> > didn't bother me in the least,
>
> Im convinced that kids tend to be slow to develop other methods of
> locomotion if the are getting where they need to go. My doughter
was quick
> to crawl (I think because she was so small) and quick to pull up
and cruise
> but then halted. She took forever to learn to walk (I think)
because she was
> so darn fast at crawling. She would take one or two steps, get
frustrated,
> and intentionally get down on all fours and get there faster.
Maybe Michael
> was doing the same thing with his rolling.
I think you're right, rolling was a quick and easy way to get where
he wanted, and his first couple of attempts to crawl weren't fun for
him. Poor kid, he was introduced to gravity in a rude way.
My youngest sister did this weird scooting thing on her butt and
hands for quite a while before she walked, and seemed quite content
with it. Some of the relatives were concerned about it, but her ped
said that as long as she was using both sides of her body equally
and getting herself where she wanted to be, it wasn't a big deal.
> > I can't wait for her next comment
> > about how he needs to be seen by a doctor because of his "slow
> > progress".
>
> Just tell her he has been and the doc is not concerned. Then if
she has any
> reservations invite her to contact him (or her) directly to
discuss it. If
> she takes you up on it you will have won the argument but possibly
lost a
> doctor :-)
Yeek! I like our ped too much to do that.
Tess
[piggybacking, due to rr's outstanding *cough* newsfeed]
> On Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:11:47 GMT, in misc.kids,"animzmirot"
> <vze4...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >A piece of unsolicited advice. Every time your MIL makes a
comment, sigh
> >heavily and say "Yes, I know what you mean, but her pediatrician
has been so
> >sure Michael is on target for X milestone and has encouraged me
to try Y
> >(with Y being whatever YOU want to do) and I've agreed to follow
the
> >pediatrician's orders. This validates your MIL's stupid
suggestions and
> >gripes, completely and totally takes the onus off of you, the new
mom, and
> >dumps it squarely on your pediatrician, who she isn't going to be
> >complaining to.
She responds with, "Those doctors don't know anything." It's great
advice, and would probably work with most folks, but..... <sigh>
When Michael was 6 weeks old, we had a "discussion" about me
spoiling him by picking him up when he cried, rather than letting
him cry for precisely 25 minutes first. The reason for letting him
cry was to allow him to exercise his lungs. When asked about where
she'd heard that, she exclaimed that everyone knew that, it was just
common sense that babies need to scream to work their lungs for at
least a couple of hours per day. Guess I don't have any common sense
=)
That's just how she is, and I don't think she'll ever change. Oh
well, <shrug> I can be civil and deal with her for our short visits,
as long as we don't get started again on the rule about no smoking
in our house.
Tess
"Kmquinn2000" <kmqui...@cs.com> wrote:
> Congratulations!
> :)
> Your MIL would hate me ... lol ... My DD NEVER did crawl. She
rolled to where
> ever she needed to go and then walked. (at 14 months!)
> Now she is 3 and RUNS everywhere!
I'm thinking that when he starts walking and running, I'll need
rollerblades to keep up with him =) He's quite curious, and I
imagine there will be a lot of chasing and distracting once he's
fully mobile.
Tess
"CN Haynes" <CN_H...@my-deja.com> wrote :
> Our first two kids started to crawl at 8 months and walk at 13
months (oh
> and run at 14 months)... all within the range for normal
development.
>
> Number 3 child crawled at 4 months and walked at 10 months! You'd
think
> we'd be delighteed... but we weren't. That meant that the safety
gates had
> to go up early... and that her motor skill milestones were ahead
of
> intellectual milestone --- it was more work for the PARENTS (also
with
> reminding of older kids to close gates)... the kids who started to
be mobile
> later had 4 more months worth of mental development to work with.
It's odd just how far the word "normal" has to stretch to cover all
the kids who really *are* normal. My middle sister hit 5'11" at 11
years old, and was always expected (by strangers, anyway) to act as
big as she looked. It was really rough on her, so I understand what
you mean about the physical getting ahead of the mental.
Nancy P.
>
>
> When Michael was 6 weeks old, we had a "discussion" about me
> spoiling him by picking him up when he cried, rather than letting
> him cry for precisely 25 minutes first. The reason for letting him
> cry was to allow him to exercise his lungs. When asked about where
> she'd heard that, she exclaimed that everyone knew that, it was just
> common sense that babies need to scream to work their lungs for at
> least a couple of hours per day. Guess I don't have any common sense
> =)
>
OMG! I have to jump in here. I had the exact same conversation with my
MIL, a few days after giving birth. She said her pediatrician had told her
this (about the lung exercise), so it was 32 years ago. Sounded like a pile
of bull to me though. I asked my DD's pediatrician about it (so I could
confirm that the advice was wrong) and the pediatrician laughed at the
notion! We've also had the picking the baby up/spoiling issue.
Ugh. Hang in there, and good for you (and Michael) about the crawling.
Nancy
N
>
Rosalie B.
It used to be thought that kids with (I think) reading problems had the
problem because they did not crawl, and never got that alternate hand foot
thing ingrained into their coordination memory. Someone who was a victim
of that program posted a lot of information about it but I no longer
remember who. If I have time I'll do a google search.
grandma Rosalie
toto
I don't have a clue about any studies or resarch, but this page
has walking before crawling as one of the warning signs of dyslexia.
None of this is proven, so take things with a grain of salt, but
it's worth thinking about.
Apparently walking before crawling od becoming more common
according to many pediatricians. This may have something to do
with babies sleeping on their backs now instead of their stomachs
and is part of why pediatricians have been recommending tummy
time while babies are awake.
However, the textbook definition of crawling may not be the only
one that works (crawling on hands and knees). Scooting on the
belly or scooting in some other coordinated way may also produce
the connections that are needed. Also any coordinated activity
children do like gymnastics or swimming probably create the same
effect.
I do like that this page treats dyslexia as a hidden talent and not
a disability
http://expage.com/page/dyslexia1
What is dyslexia?
:As parents we often get upset or worry when our children aren't
:doing well in school. Especially when the child seems bright,
:creative, witty and has a way of looking at life differently. I have
:a child who is dyslexic.
:
:We have come a long way since first finding out about his special
:talent. I do tell my son often that he has a talent and will be able to
:do things that alot of people will not be able to do. I did not know
:at the time how true this statement will be.
:
:What is dyslexia? Most people think it is seeing backwards but it
:has nothing to do with the eyes. It is an auditory problem. Dr.
:Samuel Torrey Orton defined dyslexia as "cross lateraizaton of
:the brain." Which means that the left side of the brain was doing
:what the the right side was normally suppose to do, and the right
:side was doing the job of the left side. Later, he developed the
:term "mixed hemispheric dominance." This means that SOMETIMES
:the right side of the brain was doing what the left side was suppose
:to, and vice versa. There are alot of studies being done regarding
:the brain. Scientists are discovering the link of the fingers to the
:brain.
:
*****
:WARNING SIGNS
:
: DELAYED SPEECH (USUALLY TALKING BY 1st BIRTHDAY)
:
: WALKING BEFORE CRAWLING
:
: CONFUSION OF RIGHT & LEFT
:
: CAN'T MASTER TIEING SHOES BY AGE 5/6
:
: INABLITY TO RHYME WORDS BY AGE 4
:
: DIFFICULTY OF LEARNING NAMES OF PERSONS, PLACES,
:AND THINGS
:
: INABLITY TO CORRECTLY COMPLETE PHOEMIC AWARNESS
:
: SLOW, LABORED, INACURATE READING OF SINGLE WORDS
:IN ISOLATION
:
: "I FORGET" A DYSLEXIC CAN NOT LEARN AND REMEMBER
:WHOLE WORDS BY SIGHT THEREFORE, THEY GET THEM
:TWISTED. EXAMPLE: "B" FOR "D"
:
: OFFEN THEY CAN NOT CALL UP THE WORDS THEY WANTS
:TO SAY, "THE THING YOU WRITE WITH", USE YESTERDAY
:FOR TOMORROW OR CONFUSES ABOVE FOR BELOW
:
: SPELLING/WRITES "P" FOR "B", "WAS" FOR "SAY"; "LEFT"
:FOR "FELT"; JUST THINK "NUCLEAR" MAY BE "UNCLEAR"
:TO THEM
:
: MAY BE CLUMSY
:
: HAND WRITING IS HARD AND AKWARD
:
: MATH/NUMBER REVERSAL
:
: A DYSLEXIC FINDS ORGANIZATION HARD. THEIR POSSESIONS,
:HOMEWORK INSTRUCTIONS, DIRECTION, AND TIME MAY OFFEN
:GET CONFUSED
:
: MEMORIZING NON-MEANINGFUL FACTS IS EXTREMELY
:DIFFICULT.
:
:1. MULTIPLICATION TABLE
:
:2. SCIENCE FACTS- WATER BOILS AT 212f
:
:3. HISTORY FACTS; DATES, NAMES, PLACES. DYSLEXIC STUDENTS
:DO WELL IN HISTORY CLASSES THAT EMPHASIZE WHY SOME EVENT
:HAPPENED, AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT EVENT, RATHER
:THAN ROTE, MEMORIZATION OF DATES AND NAMES.
:
: TELLING TIME USING ANALOG CLOCK (CLOCK WITH HANDS)
:"WHICH WAYS DO THE HANDS GO" LIKE BEFORE OR AFTER ARE
:AGAIN DIRECTIONAL ISSUES.
Some other pages:
http://www.sharpermindcenters.com/causes.htm
http://neuro-www.mgh.harvard.edu/forum_2/ChildNeurologyF/Crawling.Dyslexia.html
This one has an interesting result, but no cite - it is from memory.
:There was a study- read it in college. Don't remember enough to
:quote it, but from what I do remember the correlation had to do
:with the development of motor neuron pathways. The coordination
:required/ developed while crawling resulted in the development of
:motor neuron pathways in the brain. One interesting fact of the
:study was that adults with dyslexia who did not crawl, did not know
:HOW to crawl as adults. They thought they did, but when put to the
:test they didn't know what to do- they just sat there on all four's
:trying to figure out what to do next. Obviously motor neuron pathways
:can be developed other ways than crawling- which explains the kids
:who don't crawl and don't have dyslexia. Gymnastics is supposed to
:be great for developing motor neuron pathways, as I would imagine
:most physical activity requiring coordination would be.
Glenn Doman who has been discredited for the most part, used to
do patterning with children to teach them how to crawl and the
motion was supposed to change their brains. But ask Donna Metler
about how that actually did more harm then good in her case.
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
source unknown
Slinky Malinky
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
> >How about it? Is there a problem with babies that don't crawl before
> >walking?
> >
> >Caroline
>
> I don't have a clue about any studies or resarch, but this page
> has walking before crawling as one of the warning signs of dyslexia.
My eldest sone walked before he crawled, in fact he never crawled. He's not
dyslexic though, he does have a few of the traits you mentioned but I doubt
they are because he walked before crwling.
> :
> : DELAYED SPEECH (USUALLY TALKING BY 1st BIRTHDAY)
He had this but then he he deaf in his left ear (cochleal nerve doesn't
work) so this is why. His speach was very muddy right up to age 4 or 5.
> : WALKING BEFORE CRAWLING
Yup
> : CONFUSION OF RIGHT & LEFT
He is left handed, but doesn't get them confussed.
--
Andrea
Mum to...
Rhys (14) Jayden (12) Tessa (10)
Tyler (9) Paige (8) Grace (6)
Zachary (4) Rose (2) Amelia (2)
and Seth Liam (7 mths)
~"How can you have too many babies?
That's like having too many flowers." ~Mother Theresa
See us at...
http://www.picturetrail.com/koedijk_family
Rosalie B.
You were the one that started with the nasty remarks, about someone who
probably isn't reading them and can't defend herself. Banty was clearly
teasing you a little bit.
grandma Rosalie
toto
Your mil was trained not the kids, but it was done that way back in
the 40s. My hubby was *trained* and so where all his siblings
before they could walk. (Meaning mom carried them to the potty
and put them on - which worked for kids who had regular BMs
in particular, but doesn't mean the kids were trained, only the mom)
Rosalie B.
>
>"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
>
>> >How about it? Is there a problem with babies that don't crawl before
>> >walking?
>> >
>> >Caroline
Is the google link to the thread which was Subject: Re: Doman Patterning
Therapy (Donna Mettler please answer this)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Date: 2001-11-02 20:20:49 PST
Donna gives a very good description of the technique and several others
(Dorothy, Aula, Christopher) give citations which explain why the theory is
basically wrong.
grandma Rosalie
toto
The key word is Doman and he is still practicing, but not sure if he
changed the patterning component.
Glenn Doman is the *Teach your Baby to Read* guy.
Ms Poopei Pe Leah Pants Teh teh Hawaiirn Tropic Version 3.1a
I have a question. What about children who can't sit up by themselves. I saw
child once who was about 9 months old who wasn't really crawling but scooting
and then when you tried to sit him up on the floor, he would just flop over.
I had never seen this before.
Loev,
Ms Pants
usenet philosopher
***********************
Read my latest book: Change Your Pants, Change Your Life
It's a dead man's party, who could ask for more.
***********************
Be normal and the crowd will accept you.
Be deranged and they will make you their leader.
--Christopher Titus
Merle Finch
>From: Rosalie B. gmbe...@mindspring.com
>>She may also be of an age to remember a time when reading problems were
>>linked to lack of crawling. Those studies are (I'm told) discredited now,
>>but people in our day sometimes made heroic efforts to 'reprogram' kids
>>that were considered not to have crawling time.
>
>Which brings up a question I have. I overheard an acquaintance talking about
>his baby to another member of the choir. He said the baby will pull up and
>then walk wherever they want to go. The dad said that they would take the
>baby back and make him crawl instead. The other choir member (an older
>woman) nodded understandingly. When I asked why on earth they would
>do that, the woman turned to me and said, "Babies need to crawl to get
>the left-right motion down. It makes them more coordinated." Now, I had
>never heard that a baby who can already walk should be forced to crawl,
>but I didn't say anything because I thought maybe they knew something
>I didn't.
>
>How about it? Is there a problem with babies that don't crawl before
>walking?
>
>Caroline
I doubt it. My daughter went from sitting to walking. Never crawled.
She's perfectly coordinated and an honor roll student throughout
school (she's in college now). Kids are just different. Some never
crawl, but fortunately most walk...sometime. ;-)
---
Merle Finch SAS Institute, Inc. Cary NC USA
Opinions expressed probably never reflect those of SAS Institute.
Donna Metler
think I end up posting it about yearly or so.
Glenn Doman, a physical therapist, got the idea after working with WWII
veterans, that children with brain injuries should be able to recover from
these injuries as well, by going through a forced "patterning" of body
movements. He tried this on a few children, and it seemed to work, which led
to the Institute for the Advancement of Human Potential. The theories were
refined through the work of Carl Delacato, who believed that this could have
application to children with Downs, Autism, and similar conditions. This was
later applied to students with learning disabilities, students who were
"slow learners", and, eventually, to just plain normal kids who the parents
wanted to make smarter.
Later on, in response to his book "How to Help Your Brain Injured Child",
Doman wrote several other books, which still exist in pretty much their
original form, including "How to teach your baby to read", "How to teach
your baby math" and"Give your child universal intelligence". Summaries of
these books were printed in Women's magazines, and many of the reviews seem
to almost have the attitude that "if you don't do this, you're a bad
parent".
All of Doman's methods have the same basic features in common. They all are
very rigid and segmented, and take a huge amount of parent/adult time. The
physical patterning requires five people to move the child's body for him
for some of the activities. The child has no choice, no volition, and no
control. Since at the time this was started, students with disabilities
weren't welcome in many public school classrooms, the goal was to
"normalize" the child and hide the disability. It was a high stress activity
both for the parents and the child, and the term "plateau panic" was coined
to describe the situation where the child stops improving. The parents were
cautioned not to stop the program if the child fought it, because, like
eating vegetables, it was to help the child.
Two accounts written of Doman families are
"A boy called hopeless" and "No time for Jello"
Both have positive outcomes, but show the stress this placed on the family.
In the 60's and 70's, thousands of children went through the IAHP, first
those who had definite disabilities, and later, those who had parents who
just were willing to spend a lot of money and time to make their child
"better." Doman only took those who he considered able to be helped, with
the result that the deck was stacked to children who had developmental
disabilities which would improve with time, or just plain intelligent
children who already were above average and would be a success for the
program.
By the mid/late 80's, there were starting to be long-term studies of the
"Doman Babies". These children were now in their teens and college years,
and certain commonalities had begun to emerge.
1. Most of these children had a very low tolerance for personal failure, and
were generally unable to accept that any situation did not have its roots in
them personally-a very high internal locus of control. While some of this is
desirable, these children, as teens and adults tend to be very prone to
severe depression and suicide attempts, because when they run into things
they can't control, they simply can't deal with the situation. A bad work
situation or a just plain unfair situation is next to impossible for one of
these individuals to handle emotionally, because they automatically accept
blame.
Girls, especially, who went through the Doman programs, have a high
frequency of ending up in abusive relationships and not getting out of them,
because this self-blame and internal locus of control feeds the tendencies
of an abusive personality.
This has been attributed to both the lack of control in the early years and
the high level of parental stress. Other studies have shown similar effects
in children who have experienced extreme situations, such as severe abuse by
a parent, living in a war zone, etc.
2. Many of these students were later diagnosed with some rather unusual
learning disabilities, especially those related to spacial perception and
perceptual motor skills, and usually only found in children who were unable
to develop movements naturally. This is believed to be because, while the
patterning attempted to create a normal development cycle, it effectively
meant that the child didn't develop at the time the child needed to develop.
While the child was being taught to crawl, he/she missed out on what he
would have been doing at the time. While the child was being given eye
exercises to speed reading, he/she wasn't developing the visual skills
naturally.
3. Many of these individuals have significant difficulties socially, and, as
children, were unable to interact with other children. In adulthood, these
individuals have difficulty making social relationships, and often seem
rather "cold" or "aloof". This is probably a combination of a lack of social
interaction with children and also a body language issue, because the body
movements taught tend to come off as hostile.
4. Some of the Doman covering techniques, designed to make a disability less
obvious, actually cause physical damage in the long term. Other children,
especially children with Downs, were subjected to facial plastic surgery,
which, because of their young age at the time, has sometimes caused problems
and required further surgeries later. In addition, the child was sometimes
forced to lie and hear their parents lying about their abilities and
disabilities for years at a time, which wasn't exactly good psychologically
for the child.
I, unfortunately, know too well these traits. I was a Doman baby (born with
cerebral palsy). While the Doman methods may have increased my physical
abilities, and made me "acceptable" to enter school, I have also paid the
price. I was fortunate in that one of my college psychology professors (Dr.
Michael Shaugnessy, who has done some of the long-term studies on Doman
Babies) recognized the traits in me and asked about my history, which let me
both have access to the data and see that I wasn't alone, and led me to get
therapy to help with the emotional and social ramifestations.
Nothing makes up for the physical, though. I have a severe visual-spacial
cognitive disorder, which basically gives me very little depth perception,
and tends to scramble things which have both a vertical and horizontal
component. Driving, or even riding in a car, is terrifying for me, although
I've learned to judge it, because I can't judge the amount of space around
me as well, and even when my intellectual mind knows that I'm safe, my
visual senses tell me otherwise. I don't handle crowds of humans well for
the same reason.
I also have wearing of my joints and arthritis, which has been attributed to
my being taught to keep a rigid posture and closed in body position to hide
the muscle movements typical of CP. This didn't stop the movements, but what
it did do was put the strain on my body. As a result, my bones and joints
are aging at about 2 times my chronological age, and I will be much less
mobile over the long term because of this. I also deal with pain daily
because of this.
I am actually better off than many of the Doman children, because I only
went through the program for 2 years. Some children went through this for as
long as 10, and often were homeschooled or tutored to allow time for the
program, which meant that the child had almost no social interaction.
While it is much harder to study children who were exposed to the Doman
methods at home, since for several years the books were extremely popular,
teens and adults who appear with similar symptoms can often recollect the
activities which were listed there, when asked about their pre-school years.
While the newer editions of the books look to be a bit "softer"-they give
time limits and talk of the importance of social interaction with other
children, the original umpteen printings are still on library shelves all
over the world.
Robert Doman (Glenn's son) is still continuing to work with developmental
disabilities, however the methods are now much softer and more
developmentally appropriate, and the therapies are now limited only to
disabled children. Many of the techniques pioneered by Doman and Delacato
are still used in early intervention programs-just in less stringent and
structured ways. There is no denying that this work really pushed early
intervention, but like many experiments, it had consequences not expected.
I don't blame my parents for deciding to do the program-at the time, it was
the best option out there for helping a child with a disability. I do hope
that my experiences have helped make it better for children now.
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:8ibaiuc6j7pkre7ja...@4ax.com...
Tess
"Rosalie B." <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote :
*ahem* The nasty remarks I was referring to are the ones from my
MIL. I was well aware that I was being teased in the above post.
Tess
"Nancy P." <nancy...@yahoo.com> wrote :
> OMG! I have to jump in here. I had the exact same conversation
with my
> MIL, a few days after giving birth. She said her pediatrician had
told her
> this (about the lung exercise), so it was 32 years ago. Sounded
like a pile
> of bull to me though. I asked my DD's pediatrician about it
(so I could
> confirm that the advice was wrong) and the pediatrician laughed at
the
> notion! We've also had the picking the baby up/spoiling issue.
Heh, at least mine isn't the only one who thought this was true.
> Ugh. Hang in there, and good for you (and Michael) about the
crawling.
Thanks, I'm pretty proud of the little guy, no matter what learning
schedule anyone thinks he should be on.
Tess
CPPfister
>veterans, that children with brain injuries should be able to recover from
>these injuries as well, by going through a forced "patterning" of body
>movements. He tried this on a few children, and it seemed to work, which led
>to the Institute for the Advancement of Human Potential. The theories were
>refined through the work of Carl Delacato, who believed that this could have
>application to children with Downs, Autism, and similar conditions. This was
>later applied to students with learning disabilities, students who were
>"slow learners", and, eventually, to just plain normal kids who the parents
>wanted to make smarter.
Thanks for the great info Donna! My nephew has CP as well, and though
he did undergo physical therapy when he was younger, it was nothing at
all like you describe. Despite the problems related to his disability (mostly
weakness on his left side and occasional seizures), he seems to be
developing into a normal, happy child.
Caroline
CPPfister
>spoiling him by picking him up when he cried, rather than letting
>him cry for precisely 25 minutes first. The reason for letting him
>cry was to allow him to exercise his lungs. When asked about where
>she'd heard that, she exclaimed that everyone knew that, it was just
>common sense that babies need to scream to work their lungs for at
>least a couple of hours per day. Guess I don't have any common sense
>=)
That is similar to what my mom told me -- not that they needed to cry,
but that I was spoiling my daughter by holding her too much. She
even told me once that I told my daughter I loved her too much! She
contended that I was going to end up with a clingy dependant daughter.
Unfortunately, her prediction turned out to be pretty much true! My
daughter was shy, clingy, and *very* "mommy dependant" as a
toddler. Her "stanger phase" lasted pretty much from birth through
about age 3, and even now at almost 7 turns to me for most everything.
Even now I don't think that holding her and saying "I love you" *caused*
her clinginess, but still, it would have been nice to be able to say, "I
told you so!" to my mom.
Caroline
Nan
"CPPfister" <cppf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020706000428...@mb-fy.aol.com...
My answer would be: "gee, if she's a little clingy now, I'd sure hate to
see how bad she'd be if I *hadn't* met her needs when she was little" ;-)
~Nan~
Tess
"CPPfister" <cppf...@aol.com> wrote :
> That is similar to what my mom told me -- not that they needed to
cry,
> but that I was spoiling my daughter by holding her too much. She
> even told me once that I told my daughter I loved her too much!
She
> contended that I was going to end up with a clingy dependant
daughter.
> Unfortunately, her prediction turned out to be pretty much true!
My
> daughter was shy, clingy, and *very* "mommy dependant" as a
> toddler. Her "stanger phase" lasted pretty much from birth
through
> about age 3, and even now at almost 7 turns to me for most
everything.
>
> Even now I don't think that holding her and saying "I love you"
*caused*
> her clinginess, but still, it would have been nice to be able to
say, "I
> told you so!" to my mom.
Eh, your daughter very well may have been just as shy and clingy if
you'd followed your mother's advice, if not more so. I was horribly
shy as a kid, and it wasn't due to my mother "spoiling" me or giving
me too much attention, it was just me.
I really don't see how it's possible to tell your kids that you
love them too often, and if it *is* possible, I'll do it too much
anyway =)
hamilton
cppf...@aol.com (CPPfister) wrote:
my mother was involved with a patterning project with a severely retarded
as well as CP child years ago -- they spend literally years going to this
kid's house several times a day to put her through the doman/delgado sp?
patterning exercises. I am sure some kids benefited from the attention --
but this child made no improvement whatsoever. The idea was that somehow
by physically positioning the child, it would 'rewire' the brain. There
is no experimental evidence to sugget that this is actually the case.
LisaBell
wrote:
>my mother was involved with a patterning project with a severely retarded
>as well as CP child years ago -- they spend literally years going to this
>kid's house several times a day to put her through the doman/delgado sp?
>patterning exercises. I am sure some kids benefited from the attention --
>but this child made no improvement whatsoever. The idea was that somehow
>by physically positioning the child, it would 'rewire' the brain. There
>is no experimental evidence to sugget that this is actually the case.
It sounds to me like you're talking about a child who was physically
manipulated into exercises he could not perform (either physically or
mentally), which I don't think is what Doman patterning is about -- at
least not the kind Donna referred to (that was eventually applied to
normal children). The fact is that patterning *does* enable kids to do
things they otherwise could not, even normal kids. Anyone who has seen
a Doman "Better Babies" tape knows those kids would never have learned
all that stuff by age 3 without it . It's just that the long term
effects are uncertain, and some serious side-effects have been seen
following patterning.
--LisaBell
Michelle J. Haines
te...@tampabay.appendix.rr.com says...
>
> She responds with, "Those doctors don't know anything." It's great
> advice, and would probably work with most folks, but..... <sigh>
My GMIL is the same way. She's always right, I'm always wrong, and
if I drag doctors into it they are either changing their minds all
the time or she gives the heavy sign and "Gee, I did everything
wrong; it's a wonder my kids lived." song and dance.
I did finally tell my MIL, "Look, at some point we're going to have
to agree to disagree about the homeschooling, because we can't spend
the next 18 years fighting about it." She agreed, and hopefully got
the hint.
Michelle
Flutist
--
But when the morning comes, And the sun begins to rise, I will lose
you
Because it's just a dream, When I open up my eyes, I will lose you
I used to believe in forever, But forever's too good to be true
I've hung a wish on every star, It hasn't done much good so far
I don't know what else to do, Except to try to dream of you
And wonder if you are dreaming too, Wherever you are
-- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99]
Michelle J. Haines
te...@tampabay.appendix.rr.com says...
>
> "Nancy P." <nancy...@yahoo.com> wrote :
>
> > OMG! I have to jump in here. I had the exact same conversation
> with my
> > MIL, a few days after giving birth. She said her pediatrician had
> told her
> > this (about the lung exercise), so it was 32 years ago. Sounded
> like a pile
> > of bull to me though. I asked my DD's pediatrician about it
> (so I could
> > confirm that the advice was wrong) and the pediatrician laughed at
> the
> > notion! We've also had the picking the baby up/spoiling issue.
>
> Heh, at least mine isn't the only one who thought this was true.
My GPIL have said the same thing.
Donna Metler
"LisaBell" <lisab...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nmqeiu4jbbirmcmar...@4ax.com...
Usually, though, the sequence was to "train the child" via moving the
child's body for them, then have the child do it themselves, or to have the
child do it from the beginning.
The IAHP set up programs for students at all ability levels, including some
very low functioning children, and, indeed, it usually was the parents of
the lower functioning children who paid to have these programs done and
recruited teams to help. The easier programs, and the ones in the books,
didn't require the extra people.
>