Toddler Behavior Help/Reality Check
eliz...@yahoo.com
I have another question about my guy (for those who followed the
earlier thread, we're still working on an earlier allergy appointment
but right now he's on a brief course of an oral steriod, it's helping
bundles).
I'm having a discipline quandary though. I feel like we're doing okay
on stopping inappropriate behavior (remove child, remove misused
object, etc.) and I feel like we're also okay on things where we can
enforce a result (if you refuse to walk to the car, you get carried to
the car, if you refuse to brush your teeth, Mommy brushes them for
you).
My problem is, what do you do about things where the whole point is
that the child must be the one doing the action so you can't easily
step in and remove the choice? For instance, I've seen recommendations
for dealing with behavior like making a mess intentionally by 'having
the child clean up the mess'. How do you 'have' someone clean up a
mess who refuses?
He doesn't view time out as much of a punishment and he's pretty
stubborn. Right now he wears down after a while, but I have this
nightmare vision of having a child who spends years 3-10 sitting in a
corner because he won't pick up his shoes and I've said 'you'll sit in
that corner until those sneakers get put away'. I have no interest in
hitting him for not picking up his shoes (or whatever), and he doesn't
really have all that many privileges to take away. Also, when he gets
in a contrary mood, I don't think telling him that if he doesn't do X
he won't get to watch Sesame Street tonight will make any impression.
I sort of feel like I don't want to make it a choice - pick up or miss
Sesame Street - as I'm NOT equally okay with both options. I want him
to do X or face the consequences! But, er, *what* consequences?
The positive parenting books offer lots of suggestions for keeping from
getting to this point of requesting a behavior and getting point-blank
refused, but very little help on what to do when you do reach this
point. Anyone got any suggestions?
Beth
Beth Kevles
Hi --
Well, first of all, don't get into that situation. :-) If our kids
won't put away their shoes, the shoes get lost. Then when they need
their shoes to go outside (usually a fun thing to do) then it takes
longer to find the shoes, so less outside time.
Toys etc. that don't get put away get a timeout on the top shelf.
If a child ever throws food on the floor on purpose (happened only once)
then that food doesn't get served again (if the child likes it) or gets
served ALL he time (if the child doesn't like it).
You just need to expand your imagination when it comes to natural
consequences. "-)
Good luck,
--Beth Kevles
bethk...@aol.com
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.
NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.
toypup
<eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109181642.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> really have all that many privileges to take away. Also, when he gets
> in a contrary mood, I don't think telling him that if he doesn't do X
> he won't get to watch Sesame Street tonight will make any impression.
> I sort of feel like I don't want to make it a choice - pick up or miss
> Sesame Street - as I'm NOT equally okay with both options. I want him
> to do X or face the consequences! But, er, *what* consequences?
Sometimes, it's hard to come up with a consequence, because we don't really
want to do the consequence. That's where warning after warning after
warning comes in and that's not good. DH does it all the time and it drives
me nuts. A kindy teacher told me once to make it hurt so that he's not
happy, but not so much I don't want to do it. For instance, if he's
misbehaving in the car on the way to the movies, I don't want to miss the
movie by telling him he can't watch the movie. Well, we'll just have to
wait in the car for 5 minutes when we get there. That way we miss some of
the movie, he's not happy, and we still go in. It has worked for me, so
far. Of course, if that doesn't work, you might just have to miss the
movie.
For cleaning up messes, I don't do it like a punishment. He makes a mess,
let's clean up! It takes lots longer, but at least he's doing it. If the
blocks are out, I hand him one at a time to put back in the bin. If Sesame
Street is coming up, lets clean up so we can watch Sesame Street. I'm not
sure what you mean by not being okay with the option. You're not okay with
making him miss Sesame Street or you're not okay with having Sesame Street
as a reward (it's not, it was coming anyway)?
Sometimes, I have to use the stern voice and it gets DS going. Or counting
to 5. I give no consequence for that, just that when I count to 5, whatever
it is I say will happen will happen or I will make it happen. DS wants
control over when and how it happens, so he will start doing whatever when I
get to about 3 and I don't have to finish. In fact, he hates it when I
start counting. I don't know why, no punishment is ever involved, but it
works really well. It gets him to clean up, get out of the tub, start
brushing his teeth. I'm hoping this will work for a few years, and keeping
my fingers crossed that I can find an alternative when it's over.
eliz...@yahoo.com
Beth Kevles wrote:
> Hi --
>
> Well, first of all, don't get into that situation. :-) If our kids
> won't put away their shoes, the shoes get lost. Then when they need
> their shoes to go outside (usually a fun thing to do) then it takes
> longer to find the shoes, so less outside time.
>
> Toys etc. that don't get put away get a timeout on the top shelf.
> If a child ever throws food on the floor on purpose (happened only
once)
> then that food doesn't get served again (if the child likes it) or
gets
> served ALL he time (if the child doesn't like it).
>
> You just need to expand your imagination when it comes to natural
> consequences. "-)
Possibly. So help me out here...
For instance, yesterday he threw all his markers on the floor and
wouldn't pick them up or put the caps on. I scooped them all up and
put them on the counter where he can't get them, saying, "If you can't
clean them up, I'll have to put them away." I could see him thinking,
"Okay Mom, that's fine, the whole reason I threw them on the floor was
because I was done with them anyway." He might not think of them again
for a week or two, especially if they're out of view. When he asks for
them I can tell him they were removed because he couldn't put them
away, but then how much longer after that do I hold onto them given
that it's already been so long since the original offense? I have this
image of winnowing until everything is gone, which seems like more the
sort of thing you do with an out-of-control teen, but maybe that's
where I have to go.
As for the shoes, the problem is that on weekdays *I'm* the one who
wants his shoes on, he'd be totally satisfied to have them stay lost
forever because that would mean no day care. :-)
I don't want to paint a picture of him as totally defiant and unwilling
to pitch in, sometimes I say, "Hey, let's pick up," and he gets right
into it. I'm just trying to figure out what to do when he says, "No,
Mommy, *you* do it."
Beth
rkb...@pacific.net.sg
Or counting
> to 5. I give no consequence for that, just that when I count to 5,
whatever
> it is I say will happen will happen or I will make it happen. DS
wants
> control over when and how it happens, so he will start doing whatever
when I
> get to about 3 and I don't have to finish. In fact, he hates it when
I
> start counting. I don't know why, no punishment is ever involved,
but it
> works really well.
Counting worked for my kids as well, and again no punishment was ever
involved.
And it continued to work well into their tweens.
In retrospect, I think it worked for several reasons: (1) It provided a
concrete sense of *time* -- which my guys, at least, didn't have as
kids. It was like watching sand drop through an hour-glass, except that
it didn't have to be watched. (2) It gave notice that Mom was likely to
be upset at the end of the count -- not a punishment, but something
they wanted to avert if they could, in a friendly sort of way. (3) It
got both of them on the same page, so there was less of "I didn't make
the mess, why should I clean it up" and "he did, no she did, no he
did." (4) It involved me in the process, even if it was just standing
there and counting.
I also found that giving the kids notice when something was about to
change ("10-minute warning, we're leaving in 10 minutes") also made
life a lot easier for them and for me.
Rupa
Rupa
Sue
> My problem is, what do you do about things where the whole point is
> that the child must be the one doing the action so you can't easily
> step in and remove the choice? For instance, I've seen recommendations
> for dealing with behavior like making a mess intentionally by 'having
> the child clean up the mess'. How do you 'have' someone clean up a
> mess who refuses?
Turning into a game in the first place. Giving him plenty of warning before
it's time to clean up. For example, when I set the timer, it's time to clean
up. In 5 minutes, it's time to put your shoes away. Not interrupting an
activity that he is in the middle of. But if he refuses to pick up his
shoes, clean up a mess or put toys away, then you take him by his hand and
physically do what you wanted done with your assistance. Time out probably
will prove unsuccessful for that type of consequence. I don't remember how
old your son is, but physically taking them by the hand and completing the
task is what has been suggested to me and what has worked the most.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)
dragonlady
eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The positive parenting books offer lots of suggestions for keeping from
> getting to this point of requesting a behavior and getting point-blank
> refused, but very little help on what to do when you do reach this
> point. Anyone got any suggestions?
>
> Beth
Sometimes, it's really hard to find appropriate consequences! It has to
be something you are willing to follow through on, and something the
child cares about -- which will vary from child to child.
I tried to think about it in terms of what I could change to make the
child "own" the behavior. In the case of cleaning up, for example, it
might be, "This has to get cleaned up in the next ten minutes. If you
don't do it, I will -- but if *I* have to clean it up, these (toys,
shoes, whatever) are being put away where you can't have them until
(choose a time)." I might even say that if he doesn't pick up the toys,
he can't get any more toys out for the rest of the day, because I don't
want to clean up again today. The end result may be (in the case of the
shoes) that he has to go out wearing last month's shoes, which are too
tight and uncomfortable, or even wearing only socks -- but for most kids
the conseqence of not having something if they refuse to pick it up and
put it away gets their attention, and makes them own the cleaning up,
much better than anything unrealated to the cleaning up.
The other alternative is that they can't do "X" until everything is
cleaned up -- provided there is an "X" they WANT to do badly enough to
do the cleaning first! My biggest problem with that was that, with 3
kids, not doing "X" had the effect of punishing the other two kids, and
sometimes not going out was simply not an option. I did, however, once
make my younger daughter walk to the car in bare feet on snow and ice.
This wasn't realted to cleaning, but to refusing to let me put her shoes
on. She never did that again...
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
eliz...@yahoo.com
toypup wrote:
> For cleaning up messes, I don't do it like a punishment. He makes a
mess,
> let's clean up! It takes lots longer, but at least he's doing it.
If the
> blocks are out, I hand him one at a time to put back in the bin.
Oh, I'm totally fine with that. I'm not interested in punishing him
per se, I just don't want him to get into a groove of making messes and
not participating in clean up. I don't mind helping, or making it into
a game, or whatever, it's just that about half the time he simply
doesn't buy into it. "Okay, honey, all the blocks are out - here, I'll
hand them to you and you put them in the toy box." "No, Mommy, you do
it. I don't want to." "We'll do it quick quick quick, then we'll go
do something fun!" "No Mommy, I don't want to." Et cetera.
> If Sesame
> Street is coming up, lets clean up so we can watch Sesame Street.
I'm not
> sure what you mean by not being okay with the option. You're not
okay with
> making him miss Sesame Street or you're not okay with having Sesame
Street
> as a reward (it's not, it was coming anyway)?
I mean that I'm not really okay with him picking no cleanup/no Sesame
Street. :-) I don't mind *denying* him Sesame Street, but he's so
blase about stuff like this that I can easily see him just shrugging
and saying he'd rather miss Sesame Street than clean up.
> Sometimes, I have to use the stern voice and it gets DS going. Or
counting
> to 5. I give no consequence for that, just that when I count to 5,
whatever
> it is I say will happen will happen or I will make it happen. DS
wants
> control over when and how it happens, so he will start doing whatever
when I
> get to about 3 and I don't have to finish. In fact, he hates it when
I
> start counting. I don't know why, no punishment is ever involved,
but it
> works really well. It gets him to clean up, get out of the tub,
start
> brushing his teeth. I'm hoping this will work for a few years, and
keeping
> my fingers crossed that I can find an alternative when it's over.
Well, that's my problem - I can make getting out of the tub happen, and
I can make brushing teeth happen, but how do I make cleaning up happen?
Beth
Stephanie Stowe
"toypup" <toy...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Q44Td.8665$Pz7....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>
> <eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1109181642.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> really have all that many privileges to take away. Also, when he gets
>> in a contrary mood, I don't think telling him that if he doesn't do X
>> he won't get to watch Sesame Street tonight will make any impression.
>> I sort of feel like I don't want to make it a choice - pick up or miss
>> Sesame Street - as I'm NOT equally okay with both options. I want him
>> to do X or face the consequences! But, er, *what* consequences?
>
> Sometimes, it's hard to come up with a consequence, because we don't
> really want to do the consequence.
This is when I start asking myself is now the time to insist on the
behavior? I have found that in many cases, not all, that the answer is no.
dragonlady
"Sue" <sburk...@wideopenwest.com> wrote:
That approach did NOT work with my most stubborn child. In fact, the
few times I tried it, it just turned into one hell of a physical
struggle. She'd spend the entire time trying to pull away from me and
screaming. I was never successful at turning things into a game with
her, either: she could see through that, and knew that she'd end up
doing something she didn't want to do. I simply had to find ways to
make her own it by using something she wanted badly and which I could
control. Now that she drives, owning the car keys is wonderfully
effective....
Stephanie Stowe
<eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109186346.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> toypup wrote:
>
>> For cleaning up messes, I don't do it like a punishment. He makes a
> mess,
>> let's clean up! It takes lots longer, but at least he's doing it.
> If the
>> blocks are out, I hand him one at a time to put back in the bin.
>
> Oh, I'm totally fine with that. I'm not interested in punishing him
> per se, I just don't want him to get into a groove of making messes and
> not participating in clean up. I don't mind helping, or making it into
> a game, or whatever, it's just that about half the time he simply
> doesn't buy into it. "Okay, honey, all the blocks are out - here, I'll
> hand them to you and you put them in the toy box." "No, Mommy, you do
> it. I don't want to." "We'll do it quick quick quick, then we'll go
> do something fun!" "No Mommy, I don't want to." Et cetera.
>
What I have done is Ok, well if you cannot contribute to cleaning up, then I
will have to put them in the basement until you are ready to help with the
clean up. Sometimes he perks up and gets into the clean up, and sometimes
they get put in the basement. Now, he always helps clean up when I ask him.
We sing the clean up song.
In my opinion, this is a longer term goal than teeth brushing. It is
important that the teeth get brushed *now.* It is less important that he
clean up the toys in this instances, as long as the longer term goal of his
understanding of the relationship between playing with and putting away.
That is why when the putting away responsibility is not done, DS loses the
playing with priveledge. And it does not matter if the lesson takes a time
or two to sink in. This will depend on the age of your toddler though, I
would think.
> Beth
>
dragonlady
eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
> As for the shoes, the problem is that on weekdays *I'm* the one who
> wants his shoes on, he'd be totally satisfied to have them stay lost
> forever because that would mean no day care. :-)
Then you ARE the one that owns getting his shoes picked up. One way to
deal with that would be to have a second pair of shoes that he hates and
is uncomfortable, but which he'll have to wear if he doesn't put his
shoes away. The other is to simply accept that this is something YOU
own, and give up on getting him to pick them up.
eliz...@yahoo.com
Sue wrote:
> <eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > My problem is, what do you do about things where the whole point is
> > that the child must be the one doing the action so you can't easily
> > step in and remove the choice? For instance, I've seen
recommendations
> > for dealing with behavior like making a mess intentionally by
'having
> > the child clean up the mess'. How do you 'have' someone clean up a
> > mess who refuses?
>
> Turning into a game in the first place. Giving him plenty of warning
before
> it's time to clean up. For example, when I set the timer, it's time
to clean
> up. In 5 minutes, it's time to put your shoes away. Not interrupting
an
> activity that he is in the middle of.
Already doing all of this. As I said, sometimes it works, although
sometimes I think the warnings that cleanup is coming only serve to
fuel his will to resistance. :-)
> But if he refuses to pick up his
> shoes, clean up a mess or put toys away, then you take him by his
hand and
> physically do what you wanted done with your assistance. Time out
probably
> will prove unsuccessful for that type of consequence. I don't
remember how
> old your son is, but physically taking them by the hand and
completing the
> task is what has been suggested to me and what has worked the most.
I've tried doing this, maybe I should just be more consistent. It's
physically kind of hard to pick up a toy and put it away while
simultaneously controlling a struggling toddler, so I think I gave it
up because it just seemed kind of unworkable. He definitely hates it,
though, so maybe it would be more motivational than hiding the toys.
Beth
eliz...@yahoo.com
dragonlady wrote:
> That approach did NOT work with my most stubborn child. In fact, the
> few times I tried it, it just turned into one hell of a physical
> struggle. She'd spend the entire time trying to pull away from me
and
> screaming. I was never successful at turning things into a game with
> her, either: she could see through that, and knew that she'd end up
> doing something she didn't want to do. I simply had to find ways to
> make her own it by using something she wanted badly and which I could
> control. Now that she drives, owning the car keys is wonderfully
> effective....
This sounds a lot like how my son reacts. I just don't get it, his
parents are both such pushovers... er, wait. :-) But yeah, the
struggling, the screaming, etc. I wind up feeling like I'm supposed to
be punishing him for other stuff by the time we're done, like trying to
kick me, which takes away from the original question of getting the
toys put away.
Beth
shinypenny
eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Possibly. So help me out here...
>
> For instance, yesterday he threw all his markers on the floor and
> wouldn't pick them up or put the caps on. I scooped them all up and
> put them on the counter where he can't get them, saying, "If you
can't
> clean them up, I'll have to put them away." I could see him
thinking,
> "Okay Mom, that's fine, the whole reason I threw them on the floor
was
> because I was done with them anyway."
<giggle> What a smart little guy you have there!!!
> I have this
> image of winnowing until everything is gone, which seems like more
the
> sort of thing you do with an out-of-control teen, but maybe that's
> where I have to go.
No, I don't think you have to go there.
Obviously, consequences and punishments just aren't working. Have you
thought about trying a reward strategy instead? Catch him in the
behavior you'd like to see more of, reward him for it, and hopefully
the more the desirable behavior breeds, you'll see less and less
nondesirable behavior.
I like the marble jar myself. I've used it with great success at home.
It's a technique I learned from my kids' afterschool teachers. They use
this every day at afterschool also with great success.
Get yourself a jar filled with marbles. Not too small, not too large.
Then sit down with your son and explain to him that you're going to
play a game. You would like to see him master the habit of putting away
his toys after he's finished playing with them. So you're setting up
this challenge: every time he puts away his toys, you'll reward him
with a marble that goes into the jar.
Once the jar is filled, he gets a special treat. Decide together what
that treat should be. We usually decided we'd go to some family event,
like the science museum, bowling, Plaster funtime (I hate that place...
sigh... but my kids have always loved it!). Something he will look
forward to.
Rules are: he can't ask for a marble (no "marble grubbing"). You will
prompt him once to remind him, "Time to clean up your toys," but if any
further nagging is necessary, he doesn't get a marble. If he doesn't
pick up his toys, then no marble, and no punishment either. No biggie -
maybe *next* time he'll get a marble. Emphasis on mastery of new skill,
not on failure. Never, ever take away marbles as punishment; the
consequence of failing to do something just means the marble jar fills
up slower.
> As for the shoes, the problem is that on weekdays *I'm* the one who
> wants his shoes on, he'd be totally satisfied to have them stay lost
> forever because that would mean no day care. :-)
This is a great marble-jar challenge. Add to "picking up toys" the
challenge of "getting dressed by 8:00 AM without mom having to nag." He
gets a marble if he accomplishes this. Since it's a daily event, he'll
fill the marble jar up faster, which is what you want.
Once the new behavior becomes habit, then switch to a new marble jar
challenge. The list is endless.
> I don't want to paint a picture of him as totally defiant and
unwilling
> to pitch in, sometimes I say, "Hey, let's pick up," and he gets right
> into it. I'm just trying to figure out what to do when he says, "No,
> Mommy, *you* do it."
My kids were like that too. I gave up and picked up everything for
them. Then I walked into afterschool one day, and was amazed to find my
DDs happily picking up toys! I had to ask the teachers, "What is your
secret???" and that's when I learned about the marble jar technique!
jen
eliz...@yahoo.com
dragonlady wrote:
> In article <1109185276.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > As for the shoes, the problem is that on weekdays *I'm* the one who
> > wants his shoes on, he'd be totally satisfied to have them stay
lost
> > forever because that would mean no day care. :-)
>
> Then you ARE the one that owns getting his shoes picked up. One way
to
> deal with that would be to have a second pair of shoes that he hates
and
> is uncomfortable, but which he'll have to wear if he doesn't put his
> shoes away. The other is to simply accept that this is something YOU
> own, and give up on getting him to pick them up.
I sort of get what you're saying, but I find this very dissatisfying.
I mean, there are lots of times in adult life that the reason we do
something is not because of an immediate logical consequence to
ourselves if it's not done, but because it irritates other people.
When is it appropriate to enforce, say, putting things away not because
they might 'get lost' but because Mommy will get very irked if she
steps on your Legos and hurts herself?
Or am I living in a dream world here?
Beth
Stephanie Stowe
<eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109187834....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I hear you. But alas, this is more of a teaching empathy and sympathy by
example issue rather than an enforcement issue in my view. She won't have
learned about the because Mommy will get irked anyway, she will have learned
because I will get a time out (or miss Sesame Street or whatever). So while
it would be advantagous to get him to put away his toys, a later time might
be better to get serious about that.
> Or am I living in a dream world here?
>
I don't think so. But even valuable lessons have their day. It is easy to
see that trying to make my 16 mo put away toys is utterly crazy. Not
happening, at least in any consistent sense. But at 2, you have to stop and
ask yourself, is this the right time for this lesson? That's my opinion
anyway.
> Beth
>
Irene
was around 2, iirc), and it had no impact whatsoever. I had to
introduce actual consequences connected to the counting, and follow
through, before he took the counting seriously. And even now (at 3.5
yrs), I always tell him what's going to happen or not happen if I get
to 3. And I haven't had to follow through very often - but it has to
be something I *am* willing and able to follow through on, just in
case!
I don't have any perfect solutions - I'm still working on things on my
end, but I will point out a couple of things I've found helpful. When
it gets to the "battle of wills" stage, you sometimes need to find a
way for him to "save face" so that while he hasn't won the original
battle, he has a way out of the conflict. I wish I could think of an
example, but nothing is coming to mind at the moment.
Irene
Ericka Kammerer
> Hi all,
>
> I have another question about my guy (for those who followed the
> earlier thread, we're still working on an earlier allergy appointment
> but right now he's on a brief course of an oral steriod, it's helping
> bundles).
In all of this, do keep in mind that oral steroids
can make some kids totally whacko, so current behavioral
issues may be somewhat related to that.
> My problem is, what do you do about things where the whole point is
> that the child must be the one doing the action so you can't easily
> step in and remove the choice? For instance, I've seen recommendations
> for dealing with behavior like making a mess intentionally by 'having
> the child clean up the mess'. How do you 'have' someone clean up a
> mess who refuses?
You can't force a child to do something, but you can
not allow them to do anything else until they do the thing
they need to do. So, if a child makes a mess with their toys,
then you don't do anything else fun until the toys are cleaned
up. If you have to run an errand, do it, but the mess is
still waiting when the child gets back. Another alternative
is that if Mommy has to do the cleanup, Mommy is too tired
to do X (something that the child wanted to do that requires
your cooperation).
Of course, I'd recommend all the other tactics first,
like making cleanup a game and that sort of thing (even when
the cleanup is a consequence, it can still be fun).
Also, make sure your expectations are age and ability
appropriate for your child before you go to the mat like this.
Best wishes,
Ericka
eliz...@yahoo.com
shinypenny wrote:
> eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Possibly. So help me out here...
> >
> > For instance, yesterday he threw all his markers on the floor and
> > wouldn't pick them up or put the caps on. I scooped them all up
and
> > put them on the counter where he can't get them, saying, "If you
> can't
> > clean them up, I'll have to put them away." I could see him
> thinking,
> > "Okay Mom, that's fine, the whole reason I threw them on the floor
> was
> > because I was done with them anyway."
>
>
> <giggle> What a smart little guy you have there!!!
*sigh* Yeah, with some of this stuff I have to keep reminding myself
that determination and the ability to think through the situation may
stand him in good stead later. :-)
> > I have this
> > image of winnowing until everything is gone, which seems like more
> the
> > sort of thing you do with an out-of-control teen, but maybe that's
> > where I have to go.
>
> No, I don't think you have to go there.
>
> Obviously, consequences and punishments just aren't working. Have you
> thought about trying a reward strategy instead? Catch him in the
> behavior you'd like to see more of, reward him for it, and hopefully
> the more the desirable behavior breeds, you'll see less and less
> nondesirable behavior.
I've read about sticker charts and such, but this hadn't occurred to me
in our current situation, so thank you, this is exactly the sort of
thing I was hoping someone would point out that I was missing. I want
to get him invested in the process without it being such a battle of
wills and without him calculating exactly what he is and isn't willing
to give up all the time, so maybe a reward system is what we need.
I'll have to think about how to work it.
Beth
Sue
> That approach did NOT work with my most stubborn child. In fact, the
> few times I tried it, it just turned into one hell of a physical
> struggle. She'd spend the entire time trying to pull away from me and
> screaming. I was never successful at turning things into a game with
> her, either: she could see through that, and knew that she'd end up
> doing something she didn't want to do. I simply had to find ways to
> make her own it by using something she wanted badly and which I could
> control. Now that she drives, owning the car keys is wonderfully
> effective....
To each his own. Not everything will work with every child. Everyone else is
giving suggestions and this was my suggestion. I have a strong-willed child
too and she hated this approach and would struggle, but when I started to
get her hands to do, she would concede and start doing the task at hand.
dragonlady
eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
Well, kind of . . .
If you have an easy child, this may well work. However, at this age,
children are natural solopsists: as far as they are concerned, they are
the only reality, and only what touches them matters. For a 2 yo, they
ARE the center of their universe, and how long that takes to shift
varies a great deal from child to child. (Actually, I think I know some
adults who still feel that way..) That is a bit of an extreme statement,
but, developmentally, they really do NOT understand that other people
have a point of view that is different from theirs -- that comes later.
I'm not explaining this very well, but if you read some of the
developmental psychologists -- those working in areas like moral
development -- you will get a better explanation.
They WILL get it as they get older, especially with appropriate modeling
and such -- but, as toddlers, expecting them to do something only
because of the effect on someone else IS kind of a stretch. That's why
I think it's important to find a way to make THEM own the behavior, or
at least to understand who does.
dragonlady
"Sue" <sburk...@wideopenwest.com> wrote:
Actually, that was my point: not everything will work for every child
-- or every parent, for that matter. You just have to keep trying until
you find something that works, and not be upset when what works well for
others does NOT work for you.
For this particular child, any attempt at physical restraint sent her
into an absolutely uncontrollable hysterical fit. The only time I held
her in my arms (trying to keep her from biting herself or throwing
herself into walls) she screamed, fought and kicked for over an hour,
until she was so exhausted she fell asleep. (She also hated car seats
-- she was 12 before I could count on her leaving her seat belt on!)
Stephanie Stowe
"dragonlady" <meh...@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote in message
> In article <2J-dnRlsRca...@wideopenwest.com>,
> "Sue" <sburk...@wideopenwest.com> wrote:
>
>> "dragonlady" <meh...@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote in message
>> > That approach did NOT work with my most stubborn child. In fact, the
>> > few times I tried it, it just turned into one hell of a physical
>> > struggle. She'd spend the entire time trying to pull away from me and
>> > screaming. I was never successful at turning things into a game with
>> > her, either: she could see through that, and knew that she'd end up
>> > doing something she didn't want to do. I simply had to find ways to
>> > make her own it by using something she wanted badly and which I could
>> > control. Now that she drives, owning the car keys is wonderfully
>> > effective....
>>
>> To each his own. Not everything will work with every child. Everyone else
>> is
>> giving suggestions and this was my suggestion. I have a strong-willed
>> child
>> too and she hated this approach and would struggle, but when I started to
>> get her hands to do, she would concede and start doing the task at hand.
>
> Actually, that was my point: not everything will work for every child
> -- or every parent, for that matter.
Yeah, I tried the counting thing. It did not work. I thought to myself, what
am I doing? What is the point of this counting? If *I* could not believe in
it or understand it, abandoning it seemed a good idea.
Nikki
> I have another question about my guy (for those who followed the
> earlier thread, we're still working on an earlier allergy appointment
> but right now he's on a brief course of an oral steroid, it's helping
> bundles).
Hi :-) My neighbors kid was a maniac when he was on oral steroids. That
woman had the patience of a saint :-) If this is something new it might fix
itself when he comes off the meds.
My problem is, what do you do about things where the whole point is
> that the child must be the one doing the action so you can't easily
> step in and remove the choice? For instance, I've seen
> recommendations for dealing with behavior like making a mess
> intentionally by 'having the child clean up the mess'.
Here are some tactics I use. Some are more successful then others and a lot
depends on which kid (mine are quite different) and which age they were at.
I used different ones depending on the mess, the urgency of getting the job
done, what else was going on that day, how desirable the item was to them
etc.
1) Make it a game
2) Share the chore with them
3) Physically help them pick it up hand over hand. I use that one when just
one item needs to be picked up. Luke is bad about throwing things like
napkins down. I don't know if it works but it does bring the situation to
an end quickly. To many items to pick up and the struggle is to great.
4) If xyz doesn't get picked up in 10 minutes *I* will do it. If I do it I
will put it away for a very long time. I take it out of the house to the
garage or the trunk of the car. I don't think they actually miss it because
they don't have 'special' toys but they don't like seeing me take it out of
the house.
5) Nothing else will happen until that is picked up. No snacks, no new
toys, no games, no TV, no nothing. I let them go outside because that is so
nice for me ;-) but when they come back in, same story. They haven't
figured it out yet but I'd let them play in their room all day as well, lol.
I also haven't included meals because Luke gets so mean/awful/out of control
if he was hungry. I use that one for things like coats, shoes, things that
can't really disappear forever, things they don't care about. I also only
do it for things I can ignore because it doesn't work as well if I'm nagging
them. I have to be able to ignore it and just calming remind them when they
ask for or try to get something else out. Me nagging and them refusing is
probably a lot more fun then a new toy, lol. Mine don't have specific TV
shoes or privileges that are important enough to motivate them so I can't do
that.
--
Nikki
LisaBell
What she said! I think the key is different for every child, and I've
needed to use different strategies for each of my two.
I found it best to take an initial stand on those occasions when there
is an easy consequence, like we are about to go somewhere where she
really wants to go, or the toy she won't pick up is her favourite. I
tried to go in sounding absolutely confident and matter of fact that
she will do what I ask, and offered excessive praise for any move in
the right direction. With really stubborn kids (like my youngest :),
you have to be especially consistent and prepared to follow up on any
threat or promise you make.
We also do the counting thing that others have mentioned, with no
punishment following, or just the natural consequence that I have
warned about. When DD knows that I am absolutely serious about taking
her to preschool in her PJ's if she won't get dressed, she does do it.
On many other occasions I have found that a positive reward (even
something simple like going shopping/playing a game with me) works
much better than threat of consequence or punishment.
It is sometimes hard to figure out the appropriate expectations for a
child's age. I don't know many toddlers who willingly put away toys -
none, who do so unassisted. So perhaps you are asking too much, or can
start by requiring just a little help picking up and work up from
that. Since it is more important for your toddler to learn to help
when you ask him to and to heed what you say, it is worth adjusting
expectations to where you can get his attention and his compliance. In
the long run, a pattern of you demanding and him ignoring you will be
much more harmful, IMO.
--Lisa bell
Mom to Gabriella (6.5) and Michaela (5 next week)
shinypenny
Stephanie Stowe wrote:
> Yeah, I tried the counting thing. It did not work. I thought to
myself, what
> am I doing? What is the point of this counting? If *I* could not
believe in
> it or understand it, abandoning it seemed a good idea.
Counting still works with DD10! I'm not sure why it works well with
her, but it does. Especially at bed time or for teeth brushing. "I'm
going to count to 5 and you'd better get in there before I'm done! 1...
2.... 3... " By three she's jumping.
OTOH, counting has never worked with DD12. She just rolls her eyes.
jen
dkhedmo
It worked really well with initial potty training, and works when he
occassionally falls off the wagon, so to speak. Every time he uses the
toilet *before* wetting his pants, he gets a ticket. Today's tickets are
used for tomorrow's tv and computer time.
He can save up 4 tickets to earn a movie (vcr/dvd), a priviledge which
is available two predetermined afternoons a week, provided of course
that the tickets have been earned and saved.
If he's complaining and whining that he wants to watch just one more
show but doesn't have the ticket to pay for it, it's because he peed his
pants yesterday and didn't earn enough tickets. So that's just too bad,
he'd better make sure he gets to the bathroom on time today.
-Karen, mom to Henry 4 1/2 and William 10 months-
Stephanie Stowe
"shinypenny" <shinype...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109191659....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I was not commenting on the usefulness of the technique so much as the
comment that children *and parents* are different. Who knows if my DS would
have gone for it since I definitely did not. It felt unnatural to me.
> jen
>
shinypenny
LisaBell wrote:
> It is sometimes hard to figure out the appropriate expectations for a
> child's age. I don't know many toddlers who willingly put away toys -
> none, who do so unassisted. So perhaps you are asking too much, or
can
> start by requiring just a little help picking up and work up from
> that. Since it is more important for your toddler to learn to help
> when you ask him to and to heed what you say, it is worth adjusting
> expectations to where you can get his attention and his compliance.
In
> the long run, a pattern of you demanding and him ignoring you will be
> much more harmful, IMO.
I think this is excellent advice!
Perhaps start small, say, require your son to pick up three items and
put those away, while you put away the rest? Once he's mastered that
and it's a habit, then challenge him to pick up four items, etc.
jen
Nikki
Every time he uses the
> toilet *before* wetting his pants, he gets a ticket. Today's tickets
> are used for tomorrow's tv and computer time.
That is a new twist on the reward system. I wonder why he hasn't thought to
go pee every 10 minutes. I had one try that ;-) I had to switch and reserve
the reward for poops only, lol.
--
Nikki
Stephanie Stowe
"Nikki" <kava...@iw.net> wrote in message
news:tr6dncsZq61...@prairiewave.com...
My 4yo son who has been potty trained for a coons age 8still* remembers to
ask his grandparents for candy. When is a reward no longer a reward...
Anyway it is not my problem.
> --
> Nikki
>
Nikki
Sorry to follow myself up but I can't remember you son's age. I wanted to
add that before 3 it was rare that either of mine would pick up the whole
mess, or that they'd even do it alone. I almost always had to be involved
and was happy that they made an effort and wasn't so worried that the whole
thing was picked up.
--
Nikki
Kim E
Smart kid! :) What about removing a reward (ticket, marble etc) if
they do wet their pants? I still remember my grandpa helped get me
to stop wetting the bed. I got a dime each time I didn't wet the
bed, but I had to give one back everytime I did. Shows how old i
am that a dime meant something to me! :)
-kim
shinypenny
Stephanie Stowe wrote:
> My 4yo son who has been potty trained for a coons age 8still*
remembers to
> ask his grandparents for candy. When is a reward no longer a
reward...
> Anyway it is not my problem.
That's why it helps to up the ante gradually, once the desired behavior
has been mastered and become routine. Give them a new challenge to
tackle.
When my kids have griped about no longer getting a reward, I sat them
down and explained about how it works in the corporate world. You get
hired at a certain grade level. No one gives you kudos for doing what
is expected of that grade level. It comes with the job, responsibility,
etc.
You only get kudos for going *beyond and above* your current grade
level. Do that often enough, you get a promotion and a raise. :-)
An 8 year old is not too young to receive an allowance. My kids don't
get allowance, they get a salary. The salary is according to "grade
level" and we have reviews each year. They get a raise if they have
consistently operated at the next grade level.
jen
shinypenny
Kim E wrote:
> Smart kid! :) What about removing a reward (ticket, marble etc) if
> they do wet their pants? I still remember my grandpa helped get me
> to stop wetting the bed. I got a dime each time I didn't wet the
> bed, but I had to give one back everytime I did. Shows how old i
> am that a dime meant something to me! :)
I have not had good experience removing rewards when a child
backslides. Maybe my kids are too sensitive, but it seems failure
begets failure. I've learned I'd much rather encourage success to beget
success.
The consequence isn't removal of a reward properly earned; instead, the
consequence is no further reward.
In the real world, when you get a salary, it is unlikely your employer
is going to deduct from your salary. Instead, you just don't get a
raise, you don't move on to the next level.
jen
eliz...@yahoo.com
Sorry, I phrased myself poorly. I agree it would be unrealistic for
me to expect him to be motivated at this point by empathy for me!
I meant... okay, what's a better way to say this? I think there's
a part of me that sees, "You may have to accept that you own putting
away his shoes," and thinks NO WAY. I don't know, I think it's my
dad's voice I hear, saying, "Hah! In my day you can bet we knew how
to get kids to 'own' picking up after themselves." I accept
that he's not going to be spontaneously motivated by my desires,
but I balk at the idea that my desires aren't a good enough
reason for him to do something, if you get the difference. I'm
not sure that's even what you were saying, so my apologies if I've
misinterpreted.
Eh, I'm really not as much of a hardass as that makes me sound by
any means. In a way, I think the fact that I'm pretty easy-going
about picking up makes it even *more* frustrating for me when he
says no - it's like, look, I'm only asking you to throw a few
markers in a box occasionally! It's possible the fact that
my own lack of interest in picking stuff up makes it seem
unreasonable to him when I do announce it's time for cleanup.
Maybe if we institute a more regimented cleanup time it'll be
easier.
Beth
Kim E
<eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote
> For instance, yesterday he threw all his markers on the floor and
> wouldn't pick them up or put the caps on. I scooped them all up
> and
> put them on the counter where he can't get them, saying, "If you
> can't
> clean them up, I'll have to put them away." I could see him
> thinking,
> "Okay Mom, that's fine, the whole reason I threw them on the
> floor was
> again
> for a week or two, especially if they're out of view. When he
> asks for
> them I can tell him they were removed because he couldn't put
> them
> away, but then how much longer after that do I hold onto them
> given
> that it's already been so long since the original offense?
just brainstorming...even if he doesn't think of the markers again
for a while, surely he will want to play with *something* else
sometime soon... and if he keeps refusing to clean anything up,
then one by one the toys get put away until he has nothing to play
with. Perhaps then he will take cleaning up seriously, and you
will be able to work with him. Or not. lol Or perhaps that is too
mean, i don't know! :)
> As for the shoes, the problem is that on weekdays *I'm* the one
> who
> wants his shoes on, he'd be totally satisfied to have them stay
> lost
> forever because that would mean no day care. :-)
Is there something he likes to take to daycare, wear to daycare,
eat at daycare that you send with him? Perhaps that could be
linked to a reward system.
-kim
eliz...@yahoo.com
Again, I know people are reading this thread at different stages, but I
wanted to affirm again that I'm not saying, "Clean up this room!" and
expecting to come in ten minutes later and find it done. :-) I agree
with everyone who says that I shouldn't expect him to do it
independently, or alone, or do the whole thing. I'd be totally happy
with him being willing to take markers I hand to him and drop them in a
box. Just a tiny bit of participation on his part is fine with me.
The situation I'm asking about is when he absolutely refuses to
participate at all.
Beth
Sue
> Yeah, I tried the counting thing. It did not work. I thought to myself,
what
> am I doing? What is the point of this counting? If *I* could not believe
in
> it or understand it, abandoning it seemed a good idea.
See, now the counting thing works for us. It's in a book called 1-2-3 Magic
and you need to read the book in order for it to work properly or understand
it fully.
Irene
I know I've mentioned before the way I got ds to cooperate with getting
dressed & ready to go for daycare, but this is probably a time to
repeat it. Of course, this is based on a habit we already had - I tend
to let him bring a toy in the car as a transition tool. So, when I got
tired of wrestling ds to get dressed, I pointed out that I didn't
*have* to let him bring a toy, and if he wanted a toy in the car, he
would have to cooperate getting dressed. That has worked like a
charm...(often in combination with counting to 3)
Irene
Stephanie Stowe
<eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109194663.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Well I do not know about anyone else, but I am not offering you any advice
on that one because I Just Plain Don't Have Any... Aside from what I already
said about longer term consequences. Put the markers away for like.. ever.
> Beth
>
Stephanie Stowe
Sorry to tag on myself. I remember clearly the first time DS said Mommy, you
do it. I stood there completely flummoxed not having a *clue* how to
respond. I knew I should do *something,* but I did not have the first idea
what it should be.
shinypenny
eliz_r...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The situation I'm asking about is when he absolutely refuses to
> participate at all.
Well, he's two, right? This is the NO age.
Perhaps, as Stephanie suggested, this is just not worth the battle
right now. It wouldn't hurt to wait until he's through this stage. The
last thing you want to do is make a pattern of power struggles,
starting with toy pickup and escalating into battles over everything.
Another idea is to word your requests differently. Instead of, "Pick up
your toys" try "Should I put the marker caps back on, and you put them
back in the package, or do you want to put the caps back on while I put
them back in the package?"
jen
shinypenny
eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
> It's possible the fact that
> my own lack of interest in picking stuff up makes it seem
> unreasonable to him when I do announce it's time for cleanup.
> Maybe if we institute a more regimented cleanup time it'll be
> easier.
Yes. I think that at this age, the single most important thing you can
do is role model the behavior you want to encourage. If he's not seeing
you pick up your things, there's no reason he should be expected to
pick up his. :-)
Try, "Mommy's going to pick up her things in the living room - how
about you pick up yours?"
Or even tease, "Mommy hates picking up her own things. It's no fun.
<insert silly face>. If you pick up my things, I'll pick up yours!"
Or challenge, "How about we *both* get a marble - you for picking up
your stuff, me for picking up mine? Then it'll fill up twice as fast!"
I particularly like this last idea.... even maybe make a deliberate
mess yourself. This would encourage cooperation - you both work
together, and you both end up enjoying a treat when the jar is filled.
jen
eliz...@yahoo.com
shinypenny wrote:
> eliz_r...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > The situation I'm asking about is when he absolutely refuses to
> > participate at all.
>
> Well, he's two, right? This is the NO age.
>
> Perhaps, as Stephanie suggested, this is just not worth the battle
> right now. It wouldn't hurt to wait until he's through this stage.
The
> last thing you want to do is make a pattern of power struggles,
> starting with toy pickup and escalating into battles over everything.
This is actually a big worry of mine. I can tell he's got a stubborn
streak a mile wide, and while I don't want to allow that to push me
into picking up after him for the rest of his life, I also don't
want us to get into a bad pattern.
> Another idea is to word your requests differently. Instead of, "Pick
up
> your toys" try "Should I put the marker caps back on, and you put
them
> back in the package, or do you want to put the caps back on while I
put
> them back in the package?"
The 'giving a choice' thing doesn't work, he sees right through it,
but a number of posters have made comments that have made me aware
that I might be giving him too many signals that 'this is a chore
I'm making you do'.
Beth
eliz...@yahoo.com
shinypenny wrote:
> eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > It's possible the fact that
> > my own lack of interest in picking stuff up makes it seem
> > unreasonable to him when I do announce it's time for cleanup.
> > Maybe if we institute a more regimented cleanup time it'll be
> > easier.
>
> Yes. I think that at this age, the single most important thing you
can
> do is role model the behavior you want to encourage. If he's not
seeing
> you pick up your things, there's no reason he should be expected to
> pick up his. :-)
>
> Try, "Mommy's going to pick up her things in the living room - how
> about you pick up yours?"
Ironically, I *do* clean up stuff, but mostly after he goes to
sleep! He sees me clean the kitchen all the time, but not so much
the den where all of his stuff lives.
> Or even tease, "Mommy hates picking up her own things. It's no fun.
> <insert silly face>. If you pick up my things, I'll pick up yours!"
>
> Or challenge, "How about we *both* get a marble - you for picking up
> your stuff, me for picking up mine? Then it'll fill up twice as
fast!"
> I particularly like this last idea.... even maybe make a deliberate
> mess yourself. This would encourage cooperation - you both work
> together, and you both end up enjoying a treat when the jar is
filled.
I have occasionally used the 'how fast can we do it?' technique
to advantage - it worked really well for getting him to put on his
coat last year. For some reason now he's gotten less susceptible
to these little manipulations. :-)
Beth
toto
>I'm just trying to figure out what to do when he says, "No,
>Mommy, *you* do it."
Do it and make it into a game. Whistle while you work. I bet
he would join in if you just start doing it as a game.
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
toto
>I also found that giving the kids notice when something was about to
>change ("10-minute warning, we're leaving in 10 minutes") also made
>life a lot easier for them and for me.
This is very important. For toddlers, I would say set a kitchen timer
and say *we are leaving in five minutes when the buzzer rings* to give
them a concrete way to know when 5 minutes is up.
toto
>Oh, I'm totally fine with that. I'm not interested in punishing him
>per se, I just don't want him to get into a groove of making messes and
>not participating in clean up. I don't mind helping, or making it into
>a game, or whatever, it's just that about half the time he simply
>doesn't buy into it. "Okay, honey, all the blocks are out - here, I'll
>hand them to you and you put them in the toy box." "No, Mommy, you do
>it. I don't want to." "We'll do it quick quick quick, then we'll go
>do something fun!" "No Mommy, I don't want to." Et cetera.
STOP talking. Start the game yourself and sing or whistle or make it
fun. I will bet he will join the game.
eliz...@yahoo.com
toto wrote:
> On 23 Feb 2005 11:19:06 -0800, eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Oh, I'm totally fine with that. I'm not interested in punishing him
> >per se, I just don't want him to get into a groove of making messes
and
> >not participating in clean up. I don't mind helping, or making it
into
> >a game, or whatever, it's just that about half the time he simply
> >doesn't buy into it. "Okay, honey, all the blocks are out - here,
I'll
> >hand them to you and you put them in the toy box." "No, Mommy, you
do
> >it. I don't want to." "We'll do it quick quick quick, then we'll
go
> >do something fun!" "No Mommy, I don't want to." Et cetera.
>
> STOP talking. Start the game yourself and sing or whistle or make it
> fun. I will bet he will join the game.
I can see that he might, but if he doesn't, wouldn't it look an awful
lot like me simply complying with his order for me to do it? Do you
mean I should just start the game and not ask him to do it at all, and
hope he joins in?
I can see how this might work to get his hands on the objects, but it
seems like this takes even the tiniest amount of responsibility out of
his hands. I'm not expecting him to take *much*, he's two, but 'I
clean up your mess and you join in if I can make it attractive enough,
otherwise not' isn't the message I'm trying to send and that's sort of
how this comes across to me. I'm not trying to diss your advice, I
appreciate it and I'm trying to put my finger on why it makes me
uncomfortable, because the one thing I'm sure of is that our current
path is not working out.
Beth
rkb...@pacific.net.sg
Irene wrote:
> rkb...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> > Counting worked for my kids as well, and again no punishment was
ever
> > involved.
> >
> This depends on the kid. With ds, I tried just counting (back when
he
> was around 2, iirc), and it had no impact whatsoever. I had to
> introduce actual consequences connected to the counting, and follow
> through, before he took the counting seriously.
I don't think I tried it that early. It was more like 3 or 4. My kids
didn't really understand numbers until about that age, I think, so
before that counting would just have been words in a special tone of
voice.
And even now (at 3.5
> yrs), I always tell him what's going to happen or not happen if I get
> to 3. And I haven't had to follow through very often - but it has to
> be something I *am* willing and able to follow through on, just in
> case!
Ah, I think we're talking about fairly different procedures...I would
count to 10 or 20 for them to do something. They'd usually move around
3 to 9, depending on situation and mood.
When
> it gets to the "battle of wills" stage, you sometimes need to find a
> way for him to "save face" so that while he hasn't won the original
> battle, he has a way out of the conflict.
I agree with that. Some kind of a deal.
Rupa
toto
>The situation I'm asking about is when he absolutely refuses to
>participate at all.
I have found with dgd, that she doesn't always comply immediately,
but she wants to help, so she will comply after she protests to show
she doesn't *have* to do it.
Perhaps you can give him some time to come over and help and
see if he might do that in a few minutes.
toto
wrote:
> I don't know many toddlers who willingly put away toys -
>none, who do so unassisted.
Interestingly, dgd sometimes does put her toys away on her
own. Not very often, but once in a while, she uses a favorite
animal to help her put them away and she says *thank you,
penguin* or whatever as each block or toy is put away too.
toto
> Do you mean I should just start the game and not ask
>him to do it at all, and hope he joins in?
Yes.
I think that sometimes we simply talk too much.
toto
>I'm trying to put my finger on why it makes me
>uncomfortable, because the one thing I'm sure of is that our current
>path is not working out.
I understand that.
Actually though, it is a way of modelling the behavior you want him
to do. Kids learn by what you do more than by what you say.
If you want cleaning up to become a habit, make it another pleasant
thing to do rather than something you want him to do because you
want him to do it.
eliz...@yahoo.com
toto wrote:
> On 23 Feb 2005 20:28:49 -0800, eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >I'm trying to put my finger on why it makes me
> >uncomfortable, because the one thing I'm sure of is that our current
> >path is not working out.
>
> I understand that.
>
> Actually though, it is a way of modelling the behavior you want him
> to do. Kids learn by what you do more than by what you say.
>
> If you want cleaning up to become a habit, make it another pleasant
> thing to do rather than something you want him to do because you
> want him to do it.
I guess what I'm struggling with is the difference between modeling
the behavior and simply doing it for him, if there is one. At what
age is it reasonable to start getting across being responsible for
one's own mess?
Beth
enigma
news:hciq115foh916n6f6...@4ax.com:
> On 23 Feb 2005 11:03:42 -0800, rkb...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
>
>>I also found that giving the kids notice when something was
>>about to change ("10-minute warning, we're leaving in 10
>>minutes") also made life a lot easier for them and for me.
>
> This is very important. For toddlers, I would say set a
> kitchen timer and say *we are leaving in five minutes when
> the buzzer rings* to give them a concrete way to know when
> 5 minutes is up.
timers work well. we're up to 3 of them ;) ours are a cat, a
frog & a ladybug. i almost never need more than 2 timers when
cooking, so i still have one i can use for getting the toys
picked up before dinner.
lee
Kim E
"shinypenny" <shinype...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109194191....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Kim E wrote:
>> Smart kid! :) What about removing a reward (ticket, marble etc)
>> if
>> they do wet their pants? I still remember my grandpa helped get
>> me
>> to stop wetting the bed. I got a dime each time I didn't wet
>> the
>> bed, but I had to give one back everytime I did. Shows how old
>> i
>> am that a dime meant something to me! :)
>
> I have not had good experience removing rewards when a child
> backslides. Maybe my kids are too sensitive, but it seems failure
> begets failure. I've learned I'd much rather encourage success to
> beget
> success.
>
> The consequence isn't removal of a reward properly earned;
> instead, the
> consequence is no further reward.
As I recall, I didn't care about not getting a dime 1 or 2 nights a
week, but it killed me to give a dime back, so I guess that's why
it worked for me! :) Just throwing out suggestions, not saying
they will work for everyone.
-kim
Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang
<eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109248114....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I struggle a lot with modeling. But I noticed that the children do mimic at
even a young age. DS (20 months old) doesn't have many words but he says
"thank you" and "please". We don't insist on it although we did teach him
the words and when to use them. We however say these words often and he's
picked up on that. DD did the same when she was a toddler.
Alas, cleaning up is our downfall. We don't. So, the kids don't. They
literally don't know how to clean up and put things away because DH and I
are pretty haphazard in straightening up the house. We do some things
well - the keys always go in one place. Library books have their home. But
we haven't been good about finding "places" for the children's toys and
stuff. No wonder they're not doing this so well. And the children *like*
to clean up. They vacuum' wipe down the counters and kitchen cabinet, mop
the floors. They're very happy campers when we clean up the house.
As for the age, I think that's a YMMV. One acquaintance (who had a much
neater home) had her 18 month old putting toys away without complaint
(although they have to play the "clean up" song). OTOH, my 7 year old needs
reminding every hour.
Jeanne
shinypenny
eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I guess what I'm struggling with is the difference between modeling
> the behavior and simply doing it for him, if there is one. At what
> age is it reasonable to start getting across being responsible for
> one's own mess?
Definetly not at age two. :-)
Reaching the stage where they are responsible and will do it without
prompting is very much a process. I'm afraid you're in this for the
long haul.
Early on, I definetly underestimated role modeling. When I went back to
work, I backslided myself and would be too tired to lift a finger at
the end of the night. Cleaning/pickup waited until the weekend. I
realized it was hard for me to expect the kids to pick up their stuff,
when I didn't bother to pick up my own.
I don't know whether it's nature or nurture, I suspect a combo, but
today DD12 is a highly responsible, organized, tidy kid. She wasn't
always like that - in fact, when she was younger, she was worse than
DD10 about picking up her toys. Today she thrives on having a logical
place to put her things, routines, and good habits. She needs no
prompting to pick up her stuff and put it away, to make her bed, even
to run the vacuum in her room. She is also doing laundry - took that
chore on for the whole family at her own initiative. This kid gets her
motivation from inside herself, and not from any external reason (mom's
approval, mom's disapproval, etc). Her room is impeccably tidy because
she prefers it that way.
DD10 is getting there. She has a bit of a lazy, stubborn streak at
times. She does resist orders and commands. She'd rather do it when
she's good and ready, than when mom says it's time to do it. Also,
she's plain tired by the end of the day. She is high energy all day
long at school, and when she comes home, she just wants to collapse.
Unlike her sister, who routinely sleeps only 6-8 hours a night, DD10
has to have 10-12 or she's a wreck.
Currently with DD10, sometimes she'll pick up, other times she won't.
If she hasn't picked up her things, I go ahead and do it. For one
thing, it's not worth a battle when she's already on her last thread,
but mostly, I do it because I want it done in MY timeframe, not hers.
If I don't pick it up at the end of the evening, she will eventually,
usually the next morning when she's fresh from a good night's sleep.
But I simply don't want to wait until the next morning. That is my
thing, not hers, so I pick up without feeling put out about it.
While I pick up her stuff, I don't put it away for her. All I do is
clear it out of the living areas, where I don't want to see it, and put
it in a basket on the stairs. This is part of my own personal routine
at the end of each night. It is then her responsibility to put it away,
and I really don't care when she does so. That is up to her. This way,
we are both happy. Same goes with laundry (before DD12 took that over):
I fold it, put it in a basket, and it's up to the girls to put it away
in their rooms.
When we first started this, DD10 wasn't very good at putting her stuff
away. She'd take it to her room,then dump it. Her room was like a bomb
went off in it. For the longest time, I would just close the door and
ignore it. It was her room, her responsibility.
Then one day she asked me to help her declutter it. We spent a long
afternoon going through everything. With my guidance, she was ruthless.
We got rid of large amounts of stuff. Pared it all down to only what
could fit neatly in her room, plus a little extra space for future
possession acquisition! Moved the furniture around, taking out extra
pieces to make more space. Installed some organizers. Worked with her
to determine where she wanted things to go, so that everything had a
place that was logical to her (and not just me - I would've chosen to
put my underwear in a different place, but it made sense to her so
that's where it went!).
We did this in September, and wow, what a difference it made! Turns out
she wasn't putting her stuff away because she didn't want to, but
because her room was so packed and crammed, she would get frustrated
and give up. For example, her drawers were so full, even *I* would
avoid the onerous chore of putting my laundry away in them!
Ever since, she's maintained her room this way easily. She is much more
on top of things, and happily grabs the basket and takes it to her
room, putting away her stuff before bedtime. And, she's started making
her bed without any prompting from me.
Upshot? First, don't underestimate role modeling. Second, remember that
this is a long-term process and it's not going to happen overnight.
Third, make sure that what you're requesting is age appropriate. A
two-year old doesn't have the attention span nor the manual dexterity
or maybe even the memory to put certain items away (it's easier at that
age to grab stuffed animals and throw them in a basket, versus putting
caps back on markers and putting the markers back into the package).
Fourth, make sure that your environment is such that it makes it easy
to put things away.
jen
eliz...@yahoo.com
shinypenny wrote:
> eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > I guess what I'm struggling with is the difference between modeling
> > the behavior and simply doing it for him, if there is one. At what
> > age is it reasonable to start getting across being responsible for
> > one's own mess?
>
> Definetly not at age two. :-)
So at age two it's not reasonable to even try to convey the concept?
OK, maybe I am over reaching. By 'being responsible' I swear I really,
really, really don't mean I'm expecting my two-year-old to take
ownership of cleaning up after himself all the time, or to vacuum the
living room, or whatever. I just meant that it didn't seem totally
unreasonable to be able to say, "Okay honey, if you're done with the
markers throw them in the box" rather than just cleaning up the markers
myself and hoping it looked fun enough for him to do it too.
Beth
Ruth Baltopoulos
: So at age two it's not reasonable to even try to convey
the concept?
: OK, maybe I am over reaching. By 'being responsible' I
swear I really,
: really, really don't mean I'm expecting my two-year-old to
take
: ownership of cleaning up after himself all the time, or to
vacuum the
: living room, or whatever. I just meant that it didn't
seem totally
: unreasonable to be able to say, "Okay honey, if you're
done with the
: markers throw them in the box" rather than just cleaning
up the markers
: myself and hoping it looked fun enough for him to do it
too.
I don't think that age 2 is too young at all. When my
children were old enough to pull things out for play, they
were old enough to help put things away. In my group of
children aged just under 2 through 5, I don't do any of the
cleanup; the children sort and put it all away. My only
involvement is to place larger plastic totes of equipment
(if they are too heavy or unwieldy) on shelves (if they are
too high). My own daughters assisted in making their beds
and straightening their rooms from toddlerhood, as well as
joining me in the process of routine household chores.
Dunno; I grew up on a farm, so I might have a different
perspective :) We were doing some pretty serious chores at
a fairly young age...
--
Ruth
Irene
It's certainly a reasonable age at which you can explain that if you
don't put the caps back on the markers, they will dry up and not work
anymore (All gone!). Ds was pretty good about that aspect, once I
explained it to him. Putting things away - well, I'm another one who
doesn't model putting things away very well myself, so I have a hard
time enforcing it with ds!
Irene
Nikki
> So at age two it's not reasonable to even try to convey the concept?
> OK, maybe I am over reaching.
IMO at this age you are instilling a learned behavior, a habit or routine.
A sense for the way things are done. Slowly that turns into 'expectation's
and that is where the consequences that have been mentioned come into play.
From there they learn responsibility.
At two I had my kids help me pick up by just doing it and making it fun and
they'd pitch in. I never asked Luke because he'd have *always* said no. In
that case the learned pattern would have been trying to avoid picking up
just because Luke was very oppositional by nature. When he just helped when
it was fun he was learning a pattern of behavior that things get put back as
a matter of course. While we were picking up I'd say things like "Now we'll
know where to find that next time." "Our house is so cozy and neat." "I
love to read in a clean room." "Our things will last forever if we take
good care of them." Things like that. When I made a huge mess with some
project I might exclaim "What a disaster. I'm going to pick this up before
I go outside"
"Okay honey, if you're
> done with the markers throw them in the box" rather than just
> cleaning up the markers myself and hoping it looked fun enough for
> him to do it too.
What if you didn't mention anything about putting them away. What if you
handed him a marker and asked him if he could toss it in the basket for 2
points. He could do a couple and you could do a couple. When it was all
done...you exclaim "Look - all the markers are picked up! Way to go,
they'll be ready for us next time" There were certainly times mine still
wouldn't have done it but more often then not they would and I'd ignore it
if they didn't. I didn't move to the expectation/consequence stage until
they were closer to 3.5. I do think that you could do it younger but it was
difficult for me to remain calm and patient and I hated the scene so I just
waited until it seemed easier ;-)
They seem to pick up reasonably well now. Average for their age I think.
--
Nikki
shinypenny
eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
> So at age two it's not reasonable to even try to convey the concept?
> OK, maybe I am over reaching. By 'being responsible' I swear I
really,
> really, really don't mean I'm expecting my two-year-old to take
> ownership of cleaning up after himself all the time, or to vacuum the
> living room, or whatever. I just meant that it didn't seem totally
> unreasonable to be able to say, "Okay honey, if you're done with the
> markers throw them in the box" rather than just cleaning up the
markers
> myself and hoping it looked fun enough for him to do it too.
Let me rephrase. I think it's great to *start* the process, as young as
possible, but I would be careful not to have too many expectations for
a two year old, as compared to, say a 4 or 5 year old. A two-year old
simply has so many other things he's trying to master! This would rank
a lower priority, for me at least.
And I can also see how this just may be a matter of my own personal
parenting style.
I would encourage a two-year-old to pitch in, but I would stop short of
punishing him if he did not, but then again, that's my general
parenting approach. I prefer to avoid punishments when at all possible.
I would not expect any sort of consistency on this at that age, and
since two-year-olds are in that "No" stage, I would want to be sure to
pick my battles carefully. This is not one I would personally choose to
pick, but YMM-certainly-V!
Others mentioned consequences, and I agree that can be good, but
personally I learned that I can not enforce consequences such as "We
will not go out to the playground until you finish picking up." That's
because I had two kids, and darnit, I wanted to get out of the house
too.
I would explain until I'm blue in the face, "If you don't put the caps
on the markers, they'll dry out," but at age two, this is a hard
concept to grasp when explained. I found it far more effective to bite
my tongue, let the markers dry out, and *then* explain why and how to
prevent it in the future.
I was also not good with the whole "make it fun" approach. My nanny was
much better at that than I was. I think I was bad at it because frankly
I don't view picking things up as much fun, so it was hard to get
enthused.
So anyway, that's my opinion and personal experience, and as always,
YMMV.
jen
shinypenny
You explained all that much better than I did!
Yeah, what Nikki said. :-)
jen
Ericka Kammerer
> I would not expect any sort of consistency on this at that age, and
> since two-year-olds are in that "No" stage, I would want to be sure to
> pick my battles carefully. This is not one I would personally choose to
> pick, but YMM-certainly-V!
Very true. If you pick a battle, you can't afford to lose.
(You can and should back down and apologize if you discover yourself
to be in the wrong, but you can't lose the battle if it's really
one worth fighting.) Therefore, it's essential that you don't *make*
something into a battle unless it's really worth going to the mat
over. Different folks can believe different things are in that
category, though I'm sure most of us have quite a bit of overlap.
Best wishes,
Ericka
eliz...@yahoo.com
He's pretty observant. Do you think he's going to notice that I've
suddenly stopped picking the battles that were really hard to win last
week? :-)
I was thinking about this today a bit, and re the markers, I may just
put them away for a while. There are some ball point pens on his art
table right now and he seems really happy to draw with those. They
don't dry out when the caps are left off, so I don't care much if they
get left out or cleaned up later. He gets lots of marker/paint/art
time at day care so I'm not depriving him of all opportunity to work
with colors. It may just be easier not to have markers always
available.
Beth
Nikki
> I was thinking about this today a bit, and re the markers, I may just
> put them away for a while.
Another great strategy that I've used from time to time :-)
Cards. Mine love to play with them but they are overwhelming to pick up
there are so many. They can do so now but at 2yo - I learned to put them up
and only bring them down from time to time.
--
Nikki
toypup
<rkb...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
news:1109225902.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Irene wrote:
>> rkb...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
>
>
>> > Counting worked for my kids as well, and again no punishment was
> ever
>> > involved.
>> >
>> This depends on the kid. With ds, I tried just counting (back when
> he
>> was around 2, iirc), and it had no impact whatsoever. I had to
>> introduce actual consequences connected to the counting, and follow
>> through, before he took the counting seriously.
>
> I don't think I tried it that early. It was more like 3 or 4. My kids
> didn't really understand numbers until about that age, I think, so
> before that counting would just have been words in a special tone of
> voice.
Yes, but they catch on to that tone pretty quickly. I started counting when
DS was 1 yo and now DD is 1 yo and I'm starting it with her. He understood
perfectly when 5 was coming, even when he couldn't count to 5.
toypup
<eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109186346.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I mean that I'm not really okay with him picking no cleanup/no Sesame
> Street. :-) I don't mind *denying* him Sesame Street, but he's so
> blase about stuff like this that I can easily see him just shrugging
> and saying he'd rather miss Sesame Street than clean up.
Is he just calling your bluff? Maybe he knows you want him to care about it
and pretends not to care? I did that as a kid. Is there something he
really cares about, has to have, has to do? DS loves his Buzz Lighyear and
DH is having a great time using it as punishment and reward. If he doesn't
behave, Buzz Lightyear gets taken away until after nap or whatever is next.
And he has to behave until then to earn it back.
toto
>So at age two it's not reasonable to even try to convey the concept?
>OK, maybe I am over reaching. By 'being responsible' I swear I really,
>really, really don't mean I'm expecting my two-year-old to take
>ownership of cleaning up after himself all the time, or to vacuum the
>living room, or whatever. I just meant that it didn't seem totally
>unreasonable to be able to say, "Okay honey, if you're done with the
>markers throw them in the box" rather than just cleaning up the markers
>myself and hoping it looked fun enough for him to do it too.
But why do you want it *not* to be fun.
If your attitude toward cleaning up after yourself is positive, then
your son's will be too. But why make it *work* when it can be fun?
Montessori teachers work on this in the following way:
The first undertaking of a Montessori teacher is to set up her
classroom. In Montessori the classroom is called the Prepared
Environment. Parents can also create a Prepared Environment
at home. A Prepared Environment not only includes the physical
materials, it also encompasses the atmosphere and the rules that
govern the environment (home or school).
Quality and beauty of the environment and the books and materials is
very important in attracting, satisfying, and keeping the attention of
the child. If the child is exposed to beautiful rattles and toys, she
will help create a world with the same high standards as an adult.
Toys, rattles, puzzles, tables, and chairs made of wood instead of
plastic develop an appreciation for nature and quality and show a
respect for the child.
Pictures on the wall, hung at the eye-level of the child, can be
beautiful framed art prints or simple posters. Rather than ugly
cartoons, that adults assume are preferred by children, we see that
children are drawn instead to the great art, which has stood the test
of time. Children also enjoy seeing their own artwork framed and
displayed on the wall. The children’s pictures can be changed
frequently, as they create new artwork.
Rather than keeping things in large toy boxes, it is more satisfying
to the child to keep them neatly on shelves, hung on hooks, sorted on
trays, and separated into baskets. This also makes putting things
away much more logical and enjoyable. It is possible to put shelves
in the child’s room, family room, and wherever else the child may
play, before the child is born. Parents can begin immediately to keep
the child’s things on shelves and continually set the example of
putting toys away where they belong when they are not being used.
***************
Here are some things to keep in mind when organizing a child’s
environment:
1) Have a place in each room –the bedroom, the kitchen, dining
room, living room, bathroom, garage, and so forth – for the child’s
few, carefully chosen belongings.
2) Think carefully about family activities and the materials used,
in all areas of the home, and arrange the environment to include the
child.
3) By the front door, have a stool to sit on and a place within
reach to hang coats and put shoes. In the living room, have shelves
for organizing a few of the child’s books, toys, puzzles, or games.
4) Don’t put out too many items at one time. A few baskets or
trays holding tools or toys that are being used at the moment are
sufficient. Don’t put too many items in each basket. IF a child has
100 legos, that is too many for him to manage. Start out with 10 or
15 in the basket. This way he can learn how to completely put away
the legos. As he wants more legos with which to build, more, legos
can be added to the basket. He gradually learns how to manage more
and more legos.
5) It is a good idea to rotate books and toys – taking out those
that have not been chosen lately and removing them to storage for a
time. A monthly rotation works well. An older child can help with
this. This is done after observing what the child is actually using,
and removing those things which are being ignored, or which have been
outgrown. Be sure to leave the favorites!
toto
>I was thinking about this today a bit, and re the markers, I may just
>put them away for a while. There are some ball point pens on his art
>table right now and he seems really happy to draw with those. They
>don't dry out when the caps are left off, so I don't care much if they
>get left out or cleaned up later. He gets lots of marker/paint/art
>time at day care so I'm not depriving him of all opportunity to work
>with colors. It may just be easier not to have markers always
>available.
I would say this is a good idea. Markers are not *necessary* for art
with two year olds (even for older kids, markers are not necessarily
the best choice).
If you want color, try washable crayons or colored pencils or even
colored chalk.
P. Tierney
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:4v9r11du6rp9p7fh6...@4ax.com...
> On 23 Feb 2005 20:28:49 -0800, eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Do you mean I should just start the game and not ask
>>him to do it at all, and hope he joins in?
>
> Yes.
>
> I think that sometimes we simply talk too much.
I've not read all of the rest of this thrad (catching up after a short
vacation), but I agree with the above comment. For some
time, one of my role models as a parent and teacher was
Harpo Marx. When things got a little hectic or disorganized,
getting silent (though with perhaps silly or odd noises to keep
the intrique up) seemed to work a lot better than trying to
find a different way to micromanage.
WWHD? Always a good question to ask. ;-)
P. Tierney
Chookie
eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I don't mind helping, or making it into
> a game, or whatever, it's just that about half the time he simply
> doesn't buy into it. "Okay, honey, all the blocks are out - here, I'll
> hand them to you and you put them in the toy box." "No, Mommy, you do
> it. I don't want to." "We'll do it quick quick quick, then we'll go
> do something fun!" "No Mommy, I don't want to." Et cetera.
Well, one thing I can think of is: some people like the kid to put away
whatever he's finished with before getting anything else out. Others are
happy to put everything away at a specific time (often before meals). If you
are in the former camp, the obvious solution is that no new toys come out
before the old ones are put away, and in the second case, no meal/TV
program/whatever until the toys are put away. The trick is that this should
NOT come across as punitive, but more a part-of-life thing; you want them to
see cleanup as part of the activity, rather than a separate chore. Hence:
"Let's pick these blocks up quickly; we have five minutes before Sesame Street
starts!"
Another thought: make sure things are easy to put away. DS's textas and
crayons live on his easel, so we don't have to put them away. His Thomas
track is in a large shallow wicker basket with no lid -- easy to see the
pieces and easy to put them back. Boxes inside boxes, containers that are
hard to open ,etc, make it harder for kids to be tidy.
Hope this gives you some ideas.
--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)
"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.
Chookie
eliz...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I accept
> that he's not going to be spontaneously motivated by my desires,
> but I balk at the idea that my desires aren't a good enough
> reason for him to do something, if you get the difference.
At two, *he* won't. His desires are all-important, and yours aren't really on
his radar -- at least, that's what I think dragonlady means. He doesn't
really "get" that your desires are as important to you as his to him -- his
thinking isn't that sophisticated. What he will respond to is doing things
out of habit or ritual (first we pick up toys, then we have a bath, then a
story, then bed -- same order, every night) or doing things because they are
fun.
I think you have to distinguish between what you want him to understand in the
long term and what he is capable of understanding now.
Penny Gaines
[snip]
> I've tried doing this, maybe I should just be more consistent. It's
> physically kind of hard to pick up a toy and put it away while
> simultaneously controlling a struggling toddler, so I think I gave it
> up because it just seemed kind of unworkable. He definitely hates it,
> though, so maybe it would be more motivational than hiding the toys.
We used to do this: if it is a set of things that go in a box - like
markers - you can hold the kid on your lap. I would hold the kid's
hand and pick up things in the same hand, moving the kid's hand, as
I put the things away.
I think they were a bit olderwhen I started this - about 3yo.
--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three
Catherine Woodgold
(eliz...@yahoo.com) writes:
> For instance, I've seen recommendations
> for dealing with behavior like making a mess intentionally by 'having
> the child clean up the mess'. How do you 'have' someone clean up a
> mess who refuses?
:-)
I was helped here by the book "Setting Limits:
Raising Responsible Children with Clear Boundaries"
by R. Mackenzie.
Basically, you use backup consequences.
Ask the child to clean up the mess; if they
don't, you apply a consequence that is
something you control, e.g. timeout.
The idea is that if you do this consistently, most of the
time they will clean up the mess
(after they get used to the system),
if other things are going well, e.g. not
too many new rules at once, child understands
reasons for the rules, rules are
seen as fair, etc.
>
> The positive parenting books offer lots of suggestions for keeping from
> getting to this point of requesting a behavior and getting point-blank
> refused, but very little help on what to do when you do reach this
> point. Anyone got any suggestions?
I really think it's importaant to focus most of the effort in this area.
Punishments or "consequences" have their limits. Use them too
much and they don't work well. It's important to do things
like spend quality time together;
have the child have some input into what the rules
are and what the consequences are; etc.
See also suggestions on my parenting site
http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.html
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.