Patience level hit rock bottom
Janejane26
terrible on me. We seem to spend most of the day fighting each other over what
she wants to do and what I'll let her do. The tears switch on about every ten
minutes it seems like. I used to be able to redirect, but that doesn't seem to
be working as well, and now I guess she's starting to test me. It's working.
I'm becoming very testy.
Ex: Eating yogurt. She starts to smear it on the furniture. I tell her not to
do that and that she needs to eat it. It'll make a mess of the furniture, etc.
Cute child peers out of corner of her eyes and does it again. I reiterate.
Please don't do that Sarah. I'll have to take it away from you if you're just
going to play with it. You know what happens next. I end up taking it away
and we have the tears.
It seems to be constant all day long with everything she touches. Picks up my
coke can. Terrorizes the yorkshire terrier. Throws food on the floor. Starts
playing in the toilet. Reading books has turned into a nightmare. Her
patience level for doing anything for an extended period of time has
disappeared. She's gotten all bossy suddenly and is telling me what to do.
I'm finding myself staying up late to have some quiet time so I can recover,
but all I'm doing is making myself tired for the next day, but I can't make
myself go to bed. What's wrong with me? When is this going to get better?
Help? Any advice?
Jane
rebecca didt
Janejane26 wrote:
> I've been lucky up to now with the twos but I think they've just turned
> terrible on me. We seem to spend most of the day fighting each other over what
> she wants to do and what I'll let her do. The tears switch on about every ten
> minutes it seems like. I used to be able to redirect, but that doesn't seem to
> be working as well,
Distraction only works till a certain age.
> and now I guess she's starting to test me. It's working.
> I'm becoming very testy.
I know that feeling.
> Ex: Eating yogurt. She starts to smear it on the furniture.
Take it away *instantly* without saying *anything*. She already knows why you don't
want her to do this. Don't waste your breath/time.
> I tell her not to
> do that and that she needs to eat it. It'll make a mess of the furniture, etc.
> Cute child peers out of corner of her eyes and does it again. I reiterate.
> Please don't do that Sarah. I'll have to take it away from you if you're just
> going to play with it. You know what happens next. I end up taking it away
> and we have the tears.
You might get the tears, but you'll avoid the in-between pantomime, and she'll
learn that you have zero-tolerance for that wind-up.
> It seems to be constant all day long with everything she touches. Picks up my
> coke can.
Keep it out of her reach.
> Terrorizes the yorkshire terrier.
Don't know about this; we have no pets...just kids :-).
> Throws food on the floor.
Meal is over as soon as she starts.
> Starts
> playing in the toilet.
Keep the door closed (!?) or get a lock for the lid.
> Reading books has turned into a nightmare. Her
> patience level for doing anything for an extended period of time has
> disappeared. She's gotten all bossy suddenly and is telling me what to do.
Go out. Pack up the kid, dog, toys, tricycle, sand toys.... take a picnic (get her
to help you make it up/stick things in a bag) and just go. Park, zoo, whatever. Run
her ragged. She'll be hungry; throwing food won't seem nearly as interesting as
eating it. She'll be tired; she'll go to bed earlier and sleep better. She'll be
stomping on grass/concrete and not your furniture, she'll be playing with the dog
rather than making his life hell. Hopefully. It's probably worth a shot. - Rebecca
Laura
<<One helluva great post!!!!>>
Where the heck were you when Melissa was two???
To Jane:
FWIW, Melissa was the EXACT SAME WAY when she was two and three. I learned
that consistency and firmness made a world of difference. She has since
outgrown that behavior {3.5 years of age, and is a joy now {well most of the
time anyway!}
Good luck
Laura
--- Wicked Witch of the Net
--- A true friend stabs you in the front-- Oscar Wilde
--- Mother to Melissa (age 4.5) Alex (4 months old) and Meowmee to
Geoffery,Precious,Punaan, and Little One, Wife to John and owner of JLMA
productions
Wal...@dnvn.com
janej...@aol.com (Janejane26) wrote:
> I've been lucky up to now with the twos but I think they've just turned
> terrible on me. We seem to spend most of the day fighting each other
over what
> she wants to do and what I'll let her do. The tears switch on about every ten
> minutes it seems like. I used to be able to redirect, but that doesn't
seem to
> be working as well, and now I guess she's starting to test me. It's working.
> I'm becoming very testy.
>
> Ex: Eating yogurt. She starts to smear it on the furniture. I tell her
not to
> do that and that she needs to eat it. It'll make a mess of the
furniture, etc.
> Cute child peers out of corner of her eyes and does it again. I reiterate.
> Please don't do that Sarah. I'll have to take it away from you if you're just
> going to play with it. You know what happens next. I end up taking it away
> and we have the tears.
Is she seated in her high chair or her regular place at the dinner table
or do you allow her to wander around the house eating? If so, this doubles
the discipline problem with food smearing. But your method of taking it
away will work just fine -- except, don't 'reiterate' -- she knows the rule-
just take it away when she abuses it. The more warnings the more whinings.
Act don't talk.
>
> It seems to be constant all day long with everything she touches. Picks up my
> coke can. Terrorizes the yorkshire terrier. Throws food on the floor.
Starts
> playing in the toilet. Reading books has turned into a nightmare. Her
> patience level for doing anything for an extended period of time has
> disappeared. She's gotten all bossy suddenly and is telling me what to do.
>
> I'm finding myself staying up late to have some quiet time so I can recover,
> but all I'm doing is making myself tired for the next day, but I can't make
> myself go to bed. What's wrong with me? When is this going to get better?
> Help? Any advice?
>
> Jane
What worked for us when our kids would get into this sort of thing was to
start paying close attention to the sequences of events in the child's
day -- with our first, we actually wrote it down -- so we could see in
black and white the patterns that led to this sort of behavior.
Then we tried to institute some changes to break these patterns. Two year
olds are making the transition from baby to child -- so it is appropriate
to begin to do things differently. Find ways to structure her time differently
- we found annoying behavior tended to follow lots of aimless time -- free
time is great if productive -- but if it is the trigger for annoying
behavior, then reducing the unstructured time for awhile may help.
And just when you get this under control she will develop into a new
stage and new challenges. :)
Nick Mitchell
>I've been lucky up to now with the twos but I think they've just turned
>terrible on me. We seem to spend most of the day fighting each
other over what
>she wants to do and what I'll let her do.
This is a common problem... and I'm afraid... it doesn't stop for many years
to come.
>The tears switch on about every ten
>minutes it seems like.
Ah yes... the tears. You soon get to know at this stage which tears are
'real' and which are 'faked'. When they fall over and hurt themselves
quite badly... then you get 'real' tears. When they want something, and
don't get it, you get the 'faked' tears. Childern are not stupid... their
cheeky smiles, sad faces, and tears are all designed to get us adults to
give in - DON'T... worse mistake you can make. You need to pick your
battles with care... you need to win some, and your children need to win
some - but generally, you need to win more - or they will think you are a
push over, and keep pushing for more, and more, and more.
>I used to be able to redirect, but that doesn't seem to
>be working as well, and now I guess she's starting to test me.
Sounds like it to me. Have you tried ignoring her? I care for a 2.5
year old at the moment, and when he really wants something, and just can't
have it... he will sulk, cry, and do whatever it takes to get it. I just
'try' to ignore it. He does get the message eventually!
>It's working.
>I'm becoming very testy.
As I mentioned earlier... now is the time to start deciding which battles
are worth fighting and which are not. If you don't have some house rules
alreay, decide on some... then you can stick to the rules. Consistancy
with young children is vital. If one day you give in to the "I want ice
cream", then the next day your child will expect you to give in just as
easily.
>Ex: Eating yogurt. She starts to smear it on the furniture.
Yes... food glorious food.... nothing wrecks the furniture quite like it!
>I tell her not to do that and that she needs to eat it.
Good... give warning... instruct on what to do with it...
>It'll make a mess of the furniture, etc.
> Cute child peers out of corner of her eyes and does it again.
Then... remove yogart... wipe child, and furtniture, and tea time is over!
>I reiterate.
>Please don't do that Sarah. I'll have to take it away from you if you're
just going to play with it.
Too soft... give one warning... then remove.
>You know what happens next. I end up taking it away
>and we have the tears.
Yes... but they do learn... food is for eating, not for playing with.
You just need to start being a little firm, and be consistant.
>It seems to be constant all day long with everything she touches.
>Picks up my coke can. Terrorizes the yorkshire terrier. Throws food on
the floor. Starts playing in the toilet.
Usual stuff then... just be consistant... let her know what she can and
can't do. Guide her to activities she can do... and be firm when she
disobeys.
>Reading books has turned into a nightmare. Her
>patience level for doing anything for an extended period of time has
>disappeared.
Books need to be short, lots of pictures and activities. There are some
great lift-up flap books, and tactile books around these days. Books need
to be shared... you need to read with her - and don't expect her to be
interested for more than a few minutes.
>She's gotten all bossy suddenly and is telling me what to do.
Typical 2+ year old. They think they rule the world!
>I'm finding myself staying up late to have some quiet time so I can
recover,
>but all I'm doing is making myself tired for the next day, but I can't make
>myself go to bed. What's wrong with me? When is this going to get better?
>Help? Any advice?
It will only get better, when you adopt a consistant attitude. You need to
decide what the rules will be and stick with them. Once she learns that
there are rules and that she does need to obey them, or face a consequence -
play with yougart... don't get to eat yougart... then life gets easier for
both of you.
Nick Mitchell NNEB
---------------------------------
Statements made are my personal opinion, and not of the company for which I
work: Rainbow Play Systems Ltd - UK/Europe distributors of wooden
children's play equipment - http://www.rainbowplay.co.uk
Jim
>I've been lucky up to now with the twos but I think they've just turned
>terrible on me. We seem to spend most of the day fighting each other over what
>she wants to do and what I'll let her do. The tears switch on about every ten
>minutes it seems like. I used to be able to redirect, but that doesn't seem to
>be working as well, and now I guess she's starting to test me. It's working.
>I'm becoming very testy.
You've gotten good replies. I'd only note to give her choices, limit
your battles to an absolute minimum, explain why, stick unwaveringly
to the ones you pick, and try and learn to ignore the tears. They are
truly irrelevant (except for obvious painful cries.) Easier said than
done . . . .
>myself go to bed. What's wrong with me? When is this going to get better?
Nothing's wrong. It may get better overnight. Everything changes.
--
Jim
dpeb...@webtv.net
same things. Tough isn't it? Wish I knew how to handle it too. :-) I
take breaks from her when daddy gets home.
I'll usually go off by myself for a short while. That helps me out
somewhat. Hopefully it passes soon though!!! lol
-Dawn
Angi Long
> You need to pick your
> battles with care... you need to win some, and your children need to
win
> some - but generally, you need to win more - or they will think you
are a
> push over, and keep pushing for more, and more, and more.
Well, at least you say the children do need to win some. But I would
say that you need to stop seeing it as a battle. You have wants, and
the child has wants, but you both care about each other, so you're
both on the same side. It's not "them" against "us." The goal is to
find a way to make both you *and* the child happy.
That might mean that sometimes the child gets what they wanted, when
you reconsider how important it is to you. Is it *really* such a big
deal to wipe up yogurt off the table after lunch, or sweep the floor?
If you just limit the messiest foods to the times you feel energetic
enough to clean up a bigger mess, then can you just be happy with
counting on having a mess to clean up after meals? If you can be
happy with a little clean-up, then good; kid's happy, you're happy,
everybody's happy. If that kind of clean-up really makes you
miserable (why? maybe you do need more sleep?), then maybe you can
just avoid feeding messier foods at all for a while.
Usually, consensus -- a solution that makes *everyone* happy -- means
coming up with a solution that neither of you had thought of at first,
but that both of you like just as well as your original wants. Put
down newspapers to make clean-up easier? Have the child eat in the
bathtub? Have you considered giving the child a time and place when
she can play with yogurt, when you really wouldn't mind? Taking a
plastic table outside and letting her finger-paint it with yogurt?
Letting her finger-paint the bathtub with yogurt? How about eating
outside as much as possible? Giving her things which you're happy
with her throwing, and making a deal that she won't throw her food,
but will get beanbag-throwing time right afterwards?
It doesn't matter what the particular solution is. What matters is
that you find one that makes both you *and* the child happy. Be
creative, and be willing to reconsider what you really want out of the
situation. Be willing to revise your expectations.
-- Angi Long of House Windstalker
R. B.
Your problem is that she's moved on to the next stage, and you are
still stuck in the last one. You are too patient. Don't be so
patient, and don't feel the least bit guilty about it. She doesn't
need patience now, she needs brisk and firm. You will be doing her a
disservice to stay patient. Since she isn't responding it makes you
resentful and uptight, and that is why you can't get to bed in a
timely manner.
Do not explain something but once. Then don't repeat the next time it
happens. For the yoghurt - as soon as inappropriate behavior starts,
whisk it away with a cheerful "I guess you are not hungry anymore",
and ignore the behavior that follows. The same if she throws food on
the floor.
You've gotten other really good advice, but pick your battles and
don't sweat the small stuff. If you keep the toilet flushed, playing
in the toilet isn't such a big deal. Wash her hands afterwards. Stop
drinking coke or put the can out of reach. If she can't sit still for
reading, then don't do it, or make it a special treat.
If she tells you what to do, just laugh - my mother used to say to me
"Who died and left you boss?" Which I didn't really understand, so I
couldn't answer it very well. Don't take the bossiness to heart. You
are the mother - you don't have to do what she says.
There'a a book by Peg Bracken ..probably the "I Hate to Housekeep"
book which was my bible ;-) .. where she tells of overhearing a mother
saying to her child .. "Don't run your tricycle into mommy, it hurts
her and she doesn't like it". And the child totally ignored the
mother and kept doing it. So sweet reason doesn't work at that age.
I used to have to take one of my kids for a walk every evening after
dinner to keep her from tearing up the house. This tired her out and
got us both out in the fresh air (depending on where you live) and was
relaxing.
grandma Rosalie
Jeff Ganson
<OFop3.8$XS....@newsfeed.slurp.net>:
>Nick Mitchell <in...@rainbowplay.co.uk> wrote:
>> You need to pick your
>> battles with care... you need to win some, and your children need to
>> win some - but generally, you need to win more - or they will think
>> you are a push over, and keep pushing for more, and more, and more.
>Well, at least you say the children do need to win some. But I would
>say that you need to stop seeing it as a battle.
I think you're reading too literally. I just knew someone would jump
down Nick's throat for that one, while completely missing the point.
>You have wants, and the child has wants, but you both care about each
>other, so you're both on the same side. It's not "them" against "us."
Much of childrearing DOES involve "one or the other" decisions.
Recognizing that fact doesn't mean you don't love your kid or you're not
all on the "same side". Sheesh. But kids need parents to guide them. My
son may want very badly to go running out in the street, and whine
terribly when I don't let him, but that is a battle I MUST "win" -- for
both of our sake. But until he understands why, he sees not being able
to run out in the street as "losing", i.e. he didn't get his way.
>The goal is to find a way to make both you *and* the child happy.
Okay, but sometimes that's just not possible. See above.
>That might mean that sometimes the child gets what they wanted, when
>you reconsider how important it is to you.
Of course. It may be a constant battle to keep your child from getting
into things that you don't want them to get into. With the less
important ones, you give in.
>Is it *really* such a big deal to wipe up yogurt off the table after
>lunch, or sweep the floor?
How far are you willing to take that approach? At some point parents are
SUPPOSED to teach their kids how to function in "society", whether that
means not flinging food all over or not hitting, etc. Yes, kids have to
"get away with" some stuff -- they have to have fun, after all -- but
they also need limits. That's what we're talking about here, and that's part
of each parent's role.
>Usually, consensus -- a solution that makes *everyone* happy --
I can't believe you're using the word "consensus" when we're talking
about toddlers! Are you serious? How do you arrive at consensus with a
toddler? Talk over the merits of running out into the street, and then
agree to let her run just partway into the street? Sometimes, what the
parent says just has to be LAW. You CANNOT always please your child! Yet
that seems to be the motivation behind so many permissive parents --
they seem to be afraid of upsetting the child, afraid that the child
won't love them if they don't always let the child get her way. I'm not
saying parents need to be uncaring, overly-strict dictators; but I think
parents DO have a responsibility to exercise their authority to raise
children who behave.
>Put down newspapers to make clean-up easier? Have the child eat in the
>bathtub? Have you considered giving the child a time and place when
>she can play with yogurt, when you really wouldn't mind? Taking a
>plastic table outside and letting her finger-paint it with yogurt?
>Letting her finger-paint the bathtub with yogurt? How about eating
>outside as much as possible?
All of this to accommodate behavior that is not acceptable, and which
the child has been TOLD is not acceptable. WHY?! Yogurt is for eating,
not finger painting!
>It doesn't matter what the particular solution is. What matters is
>that you find one that makes both you *and* the child happy.
For a responsible parent, this is not always possible. For quite awhile,
my son hated his car seat, no matter what we did to help. I'm sorry, but
not riding in the car seat was not an option. I don't see why the
approach should be any different when a parent is trying to teach the
child how to behave.
Jeff Ganson
<37aa1aa2...@news.mindspring.com>:
>You are the mother - you don't have to do what she says.
A point so many seem to miss, expressed so simply and clearly.
Angi Long
each
> >other, so you're both on the same side. It's not "them" against
"us."
> Much of childrearing DOES involve "one or the other" decisions.
No, it doesn't. That way of thinking comes from a lifetime of being
taught that everything is a competition, and that consensus isn't
possible. It comes from lack of imagination, and lack of practice
with consensus-finding. In reality, "one or the other" decisions are
rare. In reality, there are never just two choices, in fact there are
as many choices as you can take time to think up, and somewhere in
that infinity of choices, there is virtually always one that will
satisfy everyone.
> Recognizing that fact doesn't mean you don't love your kid or you're
not
> all on the "same side". Sheesh. But kids need parents to guide them.
Kids need parents to teach them how to reach consensus with other
people. To teach them how to meet their own needs and wants *without*
compromising others'.
> My
> son may want very badly to go running out in the street, and whine
> terribly when I don't let him, but that is a battle I MUST "win"
Why? Is every street, everywhere, all the time, unsafe? Does the
child really want only to "go running out in the street," and nowhere
else? Maybe you and he would *both* be happy if you found a driveway
or other paved area he could safely run in. Maybe you'd both be happy
if you walked him safely across the street, so he could see whatever
he was trying to get at on the other side. Maybe he'd be happy at
being distracted from the street by something more fun or yummy. This
is by no means a "battle" you must "win" at his expense.
> >The goal is to find a way to make both you *and* the child happy.
> Okay, but sometimes that's just not possible. See above.
Rarely.
> >Is it *really* such a big deal to wipe up yogurt off the table
after
> >lunch, or sweep the floor?
> How far are you willing to take that approach? At some point parents
are
> SUPPOSED to teach their kids how to function in "society", whether
that
> means not flinging food all over or not hitting, etc.
All children will learn how to function in "society" when the time is
right. By teaching children how to reach consensus, you *are*
teaching then how to function in society -- consensus is what
functioning in society is all about. Consensus is the process by
which your child *and* those around him (family now, society later)
can *all* get their needs and wants met at the same time.
> I can't believe you're using the word "consensus" when we're talking
> about toddlers! Are you serious? How do you arrive at consensus with
a
> toddler? Talk over the merits of running out into the street, and
then
> agree to let her run just partway into the street?
What you suggest sounds like a compromise, NOT a consensus. Consensus
means *all* parties wind up *totally* satisfied, not that each gives
up something in exchange for being *partly* satisfied.
How you reach consensus with a toddler is by trial and error, usually.
Since the toddler isn't very verbal yet and doesn't have much
experience with brainstorming and problem-solving, the parent has to
do most of the brainstorming, suggesting, and trying. You try things
until you find something that makes everybody happy.
When the child tries to run out into a busy street, of course you grab
them before they can get hurt. Then you try asking whether they'd
like you to take them across the street, or whether they'd like to run
in the driveway, or whether they'd like a popsicle. If they're too
young to understand what you're asking, you just try things -- take
them across the street so they can see what's there, take them to a
safe driveway for running, give them a treat and see if they're happy
with the distraction.
> >Put down newspapers to make clean-up easier? Have the child eat in
the
> >bathtub? Have you considered giving the child a time and place
when
> >she can play with yogurt, when you really wouldn't mind? Taking a
> >plastic table outside and letting her finger-paint it with yogurt?
> >Letting her finger-paint the bathtub with yogurt? How about eating
> >outside as much as possible?
> All of this to accommodate behavior that is not acceptable, and
which
> the child has been TOLD is not acceptable. WHY?! Yogurt is for
eating,
> not finger painting!
Why is painting with yogurt not acceptable? What a stuck-in-the-mud
attitude! I've done yogurt and pudding fingerpainting with daycare
and preschool children, and it's great fun! What's *wrong* with it???
Why would a parent consider it SO "unacceptable" that they're willing
to make their child unhappy over it? Yogurt painting doesn't hurt
anybody. If it's not done on an expensive piece of furniture that
will be impossible to clean, it's very cheap. All it costs is a very
small amount of the parent's time in clean-up. And if that's such a
big deal, there are plenty of ways to make clean-up easier -- I listed
some above. Why would you want to deprive your child of this fun
activity, which they've even had the creativity to discover all on
their own? The only challenge is finding a *way* it can be done which
makes both the parent and the child happy.
> >It doesn't matter what the particular solution is. What matters is
> >that you find one that makes both you *and* the child happy.
> For a responsible parent, this is not always possible. For quite
awhile,
> my son hated his car seat, no matter what we did to help. I'm sorry,
but
> not riding in the car seat was not an option.
Why not? For a while when she was an infant, my youngest hated the
carseat, so we rarely went anywhere, and when we did, the trip was as
brief as possible. Once I felt her older sisters were competent to
watch her for brief periods, I left her with them, or later with her
father (she didn't meet him until she was 8 months old), when I went
to run errands. We did as much as possible by foot or by bus. I
bussed to school and work with her. There are many options to making
a baby miserable in a carseat they hate.
> I don't see why the
> approach should be any different when a parent is trying to teach
the
> child how to behave.
The (major!) difference is that there's no clear and immediate danger
from painting with yogurt as there is from riding without a carseat.
In fact I can't see that there's *any* danger at all (unless maybe the
kid is allergic to milk). When there's no danger to the child or to
anyone else, there's absolutely no need to coerce the child.
Jim
>Nick Mitchell <in...@rainbowplay.co.uk> wrote:
>> You need to pick your
>> battles with care... you need to win some, and your children need to
>win
>> some - but generally, you need to win more - or they will think you
>are a
>> push over, and keep pushing for more, and more, and more.
>
>Well, at least you say the children do need to win some.
I'll say it ;-) There are a few differing definitions to deal with,
but an issue that reaches my def of the "battle" stage (very rare -
yogurt being spread on furniture in this case) must be "won" by the
parent 100 percent of the time. IMO, you can offer finger paints
after lunch or other alternatives, but you simply can't tell a kid to
stop painting the couch with food and then let them continue. . . .
--
Jim
rebecca didt
Angi Long wrote:
> Is it *really* such a big
> deal to wipe up yogurt off the table after lunch, or sweep the floor?
Nope, but the original poster was talking about yoghurt on the furniture.
For most people, washing the sofa after every meal would probably be a bit
much, even in the name of keeping the peace.
> If you just limit the messiest foods to the times you feel energetic
> enough to clean up a bigger mess, then can you just be happy with
> counting on having a mess to clean up after meals?
I can see absolutely no good reason that a two year old needs to
*deliberately* smear/throw food. Getting a rise out of mum is not a good
reason. Nor are artistic feelings.
> If you can be
> happy with a little clean-up, then good; kid's happy, you're happy,
> everybody's happy. If that kind of clean-up really makes you
> miserable (why? maybe you do need more sleep?),
Spending half an hour cleaning up after a ten minute snack is not
reasonable. Yoghurt on the furniture would take a while; it's sticky,
greasy and if you leave any, it smells.
> then maybe you can
> just avoid feeding messier foods at all for a while.
No, just ask the child to exercise a little self control. A two year old
should be able to manage this much.
> Usually, consensus -- a solution that makes *everyone* happy -- means
> coming up with a solution that neither of you had thought of at first,
> but that both of you like just as well as your original wants. Put
> down newspapers to make clean-up easier?
We're not talking about a messy eater - all kids are messy eaters; it's
part of the job description - the child in question was using food
smearing as a way of winding up her mother. Not the same thing
> Have the child eat in the
> bathtub? Have you considered giving the child a time and place when
> she can play with yogurt, when you really wouldn't mind? Taking a
> plastic table outside and letting her finger-paint it with yogurt?
> Letting her finger-paint the bathtub with yogurt?
What's wrong with finger painting with *paint*? The colours are better
anyway. and you can put the end product on the wall without worrying about
attracting flies. The child in question wasn't being artistic, she was
trying it on.
> How about eating
> outside as much as possible? Giving her things which you're happy
> with her throwing, and making a deal that she won't throw her food,
> but will get beanbag-throwing time right afterwards?
Sounds awfully reasonable. My kids at two (well, my middle one, anyway)
would probably not have been able to resist the choice..."Bugger the bean
bag, I'll throw the food!" I like this choice better.."Throw the food OR
eat it".
rebecca didt
Laura wrote:
> Rebecca wrote:
>
> <<One helluva great post!!!!>>
Gosh thanks! :-)
> Where the heck were you when Melissa was two???
Right here! Doing battle royal with my (then) two year old, Ozzie.
> To Jane:
>
> FWIW, Melissa was the EXACT SAME WAY when she was two and three. I learned
> that consistency and firmness made a world of difference.
Can I third that? No substitute for it. - Rebecca
Jeff Ganson
>Jeff Ganson <jga...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>> angi...@wport.com (Angi Long) wrote in
>> >You have wants, and the child has wants, but you both care about
>each
>> >other, so you're both on the same side. It's not "them" against
>"us."
>
>> Much of childrearing DOES involve "one or the other" decisions.
>
>No, it doesn't. That way of thinking comes from a lifetime of being
>taught that everything is a competition, and that consensus isn't
>possible.
Who mentioned "competition"?
>> Recognizing that fact doesn't mean you don't love your kid or you're
>not
>> all on the "same side". Sheesh. But kids need parents to guide them.
>
>Kids need parents to teach them how to reach consensus with other
>people.
Again, I can't believe you're talking about consensus with toddlers.
>> My
>> son may want very badly to go running out in the street, and whine
>> terribly when I don't let him, but that is a battle I MUST "win"
>
>Why?
SPLAT! That's why!
>Is every street, everywhere, all the time, unsafe?
Yes, at 15 months, they all are. The one in front of our place certainly
is.
>Does the child really want only to "go running out in the street," and
>nowhere else? Maybe you and he would *both* be happy if you found a
>driveway or other paved area he could safely run in. Maybe you'd both
>be happy if you walked him safely across the street, so he could see
>whatever he was trying to get at on the other side. Maybe he'd be
>happy at being distracted from the street by something more fun or
>yummy.
Well, when he's running out into a street that cars drive on frequently, I
don't really have time to sit down, put my hand on my chin and ponder the
possibilities. There are no two ways about it -- he CANNOT go into the street.
>This is by no means a "battle" you must "win" at his expense.
Here it is. I think you're the one who sees it as a competition. How is it "at
his expense" for me to insist on what's good for him, when he doesn't know
what's good for him (in this case) because he's 15 months old?
>> >The goal is to find a way to make both you *and* the child happy.
>
>> Okay, but sometimes that's just not possible. See above.
>
>Rarely.
I suppose you're right. It would actually be quite easy to simply let your
kids do whatever the hell they want. If you accepted that, then maybe you
could be happy (if totally irresponsible). Want candy for dinner? Gonna cry if
you don't get your way? Okay, here's the candy -- you're happy because you got
candy, I'm happy because you're not crying. I don't think that's the
definition of parenting.
>All children will learn how to function in "society" when the time is
>right.
For many youths, the time seems to be the day they're committed to prison. No,
I'm not saying your kids will go to prison, but I also DO NOT accept your
apparent argument that kids should dictate when they learn to function in
society. That falls under the parent's, not the child's, list of
responsibilities. "Person that makes me happy 100% of the time" is no
definition of "parent" I've ever seen.
>By teaching children how to reach consensus, you *are*
>teaching then how to function in society -- consensus is what
>functioning in society is all about. Consensus is the process by
>which your child *and* those around him (family now, society later)
>can *all* get their needs and wants met at the same time.
What planet do you live on? Do you live in a country that's governed
(politically, economically, OR socially) by CONSENSUS? I doubt it. Why teach
kids something that has no basis in reality? It's fine to STRIVE for
consensus, but it is not always possible to achieve. Frankly, I'd hate to live
in a society that WAS governed by consensus -- nothing would EVER get
accomplished. How unrealistic.
>> I can't believe you're using the word "consensus" when we're talking
>> about toddlers! Are you serious? How do you arrive at consensus with
>a
>> toddler? Talk over the merits of running out into the street, and
>then
>> agree to let her run just partway into the street?
>
>How you reach consensus with a toddler is by trial and error, usually.
Well, YOU let YOUR toddler run out into a busy street. I'm not willing to
experiment that way -- I KNOW it's "error".
>You try things until you find something that makes everybody happy.
Are you advocating shielding children from ALL unhappiness? WHY?! Unhappiness
and disappointment and compromise are part of life. Not getting one's way is
part of life. How prepared will such a child be for the real world?
>When the child tries to run out into a busy street, of course you grab
>them before they can get hurt. Then you try asking whether they'd
>like you to take them across the street, or whether they'd like to run
>in the driveway, or whether they'd like a popsicle.
Or you do the things you HAVE to do, like putting the groceries away.
Sometimes in real life play has to wait. I know, that will just crush the
kid's self-esteem. Right.
>> All of this to accommodate behavior that is not acceptable, and
>which
>> the child has been TOLD is not acceptable. WHY?! Yogurt is for
>eating,
>> not finger painting!
>
>Why is painting with yogurt not acceptable? What a stuck-in-the-mud
>attitude! I've done yogurt and pudding fingerpainting with daycare
>and preschool children, and it's great fun! What's *wrong* with it???
>Why would a parent consider it SO "unacceptable" that they're willing
>to make their child unhappy over it?
Perhaps the parent feels that it is morally wrong to waste food when others
are starving? Or that they simply can't afford to waste food? The WHY doesn't
matter -- the parent has the right (and, I assert, responsibility), as parent,
to make reasonable rules.
>Why would you want to deprive your child of this fun
>activity, which they've even had the creativity to discover all on
>their own?
Perhaps because the parent has already bought finger paint for that purpose,
and will provide the child with an opportunity, but only when prepared
(newspaper on the floor, grubbly clothes on)? Perhaps because they want the
child to know the difference between yogurt and finger paint -- that one is
for eating, and one is for painting? Are you seriously saying that not letting
the child paint with food (as opposed to paint) somehow "deprives" the child?
Ridiculous. Just because I don't let my son waste food and ruin the place
doesn't mean he doesn't have ample opportunities to be creative.
>> For a responsible parent, this is not always possible. For quite
>awhile,
>> my son hated his car seat, no matter what we did to help. I'm sorry,
>but
>> not riding in the car seat was not an option.
>
>Why not? For a while when she was an infant, my youngest hated the
>carseat, so we rarely went anywhere,
Well, once again, your words speak for themselves. How can I argue with that?
Kid doesn't like car seat, so we don't go anywhere. You DO let the kids make
ALL the decisions, don't you?
>The (major!) difference is that there's no clear and immediate danger
>from painting with yogurt as there is from riding without a carseat.
>In fact I can't see that there's *any* danger at all (unless maybe the
>kid is allergic to milk). When there's no danger to the child or to
>anyone else, there's absolutely no need to coerce the child.
What about the danger that the child will never learn appropriate behavior?
Would you let your child fling food around a restaurant, or a friend's house?
I know, your answer will be no, we don't go anywhere. Well, great. Some of us
like to keep in mind the fact that there is a real world out there that does
actually have behavioral expectations (very reasonable ones, I might add). We
feel a responsibility to prepare our kids to enter that world -- whether it be
simply playing with friends, or going to school, or going to work. So we teach
them to behave.
Nyoka Koleda
wrote:
>> My
>> son may want very badly to go running out in the street, and whine
>> terribly when I don't let him, but that is a battle I MUST "win"
>
>Why? Is every street, everywhere, all the time, unsafe? Does the
>child really want only to "go running out in the street," and nowhere
>else? Maybe you and he would *both* be happy if you found a driveway
>or other paved area he could safely run in. Maybe you'd both be happy
>if you walked him safely across the street, so he could see whatever
>he was trying to get at on the other side. Maybe he'd be happy at
>being distracted from the street by something more fun or yummy. This
>is by no means a "battle" you must "win" at his expense.
I understand completely what you are saying here. For instance, my
son (nearly four <sob>) is not allowed in our street. the teens (and
there are a lot of them) around here drive way too fast and you *know
they're not paying as much attention as they could. No, way, no how
is he allowed in the street (although other 4 yo were allowed to).
My SIL lives on a very quiet (total of 3 houses) cul-de-sac. Trevor
was allowed to play in the street while we were there. He understands
that our street is unsafe and Aunt J's street is safe.
Even when I give him permission to go into the street (to retrieve a
ball or whatever) he still won't do it.
Nyoka
(mom to Trevor (3)
and Lauren 10/11/98
make money surfing the web - ask me how.
(reply to wannabelc at mediaone dot net)
Janejane26
Through reading the posts, I can see I've been too soft on her. I've taken
these posts to heart and changed the way I'm doing things with her. No chances
with yogurt (by the way she was making pretty patterns with it on my computer
chair). She knows right from wrong and and one smear is one too many.
I have to say with doing it differently for a few days it's already gotten
easier for me. We've had less of the tears and tantrums. It works so much
better eliminating the problem immediately with a correction. She isn't as
upset as she was when she "wound me up" as someone so correctly said. The
quicker the decision is made, the quicker she gets over it.
Of course I'll still give her one chance with things she's never been warned
about before, but when she knows she's not behaving appropriately ahead of time
then there's no need for a warning.
You are all so right. I guess I was trying to be a nineties mom or something.
I was trying to reach a concensus so nobody would get upset, but what happened
was she'd wind me up, I'd get upset and then she'd get upset with me because I
wouldn't let her have her way anymore. A concensus doesn't work when two
forces are diametrically opposed.
I can't let her pull the dogs hair a little bit. She can't pull it period.
We're still working on that problem. I don't really want to throw him in a
closet lol.
Again, thank you all very much for your advice.
Jane
Jeff Ganson
janej...@aol.com (Janejane26) wrote in
<19990803191415...@ng-xc1.aol.com>:
>You are all so right. I guess I was trying to be a nineties mom or
>something. I was trying to reach a concensus so nobody would get upset,
>but what happened was she'd wind me up, I'd get upset and then she'd
>get upset with me because I wouldn't let her have her way anymore. A
>concensus doesn't work when two forces are diametrically opposed.
I think you'll catch hell from one contributor here, who will tell you
that you are being "competitive" and will object to your "diametrically
opposed" characterization. Good for you; ignore her, stick to your guns.
Good luck!
Janejane26
>I think you'll catch hell from one contributor here, who will tell you
>that you are being "competitive"
It's not much of a competition with a two year old. Let's face it, I have all
the power and I can decide whether to let her get her own way or not. Where's
the competition in that lol?
Jane
Banty
> What you suggest sounds like a compromise, NOT a consensus. Consensus
> means *all* parties wind up *totally* satisfied, not that each gives
> up something in exchange for being *partly* satisfied.
Um, no.
If there were a solution that meant *all* parties were to be *totally*
satisfied, there would be no need to reach a consensus. Consensus
simply means that all parties find the solution *acceptable*. But
acceptable is a far cry from "totally satisfied". And acceptable often
means compromise from the ideal (what would totally satisfy).
Banty
Banty
>
> > All of this to accommodate behavior that is not acceptable, and
> which
> > the child has been TOLD is not acceptable. WHY?! Yogurt is for
> eating,
> > not finger painting!
>
> Why is painting with yogurt not acceptable? What a stuck-in-the-mud
> attitude! I've done yogurt and pudding fingerpainting with daycare
> and preschool children, and it's great fun! What's *wrong* with it???
> Why would a parent consider it SO "unacceptable" that they're willing
> to make their child unhappy over it? Yogurt painting doesn't hurt
> anybody. If it's not done on an expensive piece of furniture that
> will be impossible to clean, it's very cheap. All it costs is a very
> small amount of the parent's time in clean-up. And if that's such a
> big deal, there are plenty of ways to make clean-up easier -- I listed
> some above. Why would you want to deprive your child of this fun
> activity, which they've even had the creativity to discover all on
> their own? The only challenge is finding a *way* it can be done which
> makes both the parent and the child happy.
Well, count me as another stick-in-the-mud, then. Why not take out good
ol' finger paints and point the child to an acceptable place to paint
and an acceptable medium to paint on?? Do you get some kind of cosmic
free-spirited-and-creative brownie points for painting with food?
It's appropriate to let a kid go with finger paints, but at the same
time it's appropriate to start to teach the toddler that there are some
things that aren't good to do. And things with certain purposes. That's
when kids start to learn respect for the people and things around them.
Yes - I would *want* my child to feel free to paint wiht a medium I
provide him, while at the same time feel constrained from smearing
everything and anything with whatever strikes his fancy. I kinda would
like to have him think of eating when he sees food, not where else he
could put it.
When do you propose starting to raise a child to be civilized??
Banty
Banty
> Effective People." Covey advocates thinking beyond a traditional win-loss setup
> to one in which both parties end up totally satisfied -- a win-win. He
> differentiates that from a compromise -- in which both parties give up
> something.
>
> Covey described an outlook in which parties look try to really understand the
> situation from the other person's viewpoint, in order to help brainstorm
> solutions both will feel wonderful about (an ideal, as you put it, but his
> thinking is that there are many possibilities instead of just two), instead of
> the traditional adversarial outlook that usually ends up with both feeling
> slightly resentful about what they've given up to reach compromise. That
> process involves a lot of out of the box thinking similar to what I saw in
> Angi's post.
I'm familliar with Covey and his "win-win or no deal" approach. But
that doesn' change the definition of "consensus".
Banty
Hedgehog42
I'm not sure I would feel great about many of the potential solutions Angi
proposed, but I'm pretty sure I recognized the thought process.
Lori
Christopher Biow
>> >> What you suggest sounds like a compromise, NOT a consensus. Consensus
>> >> means *all* parties wind up *totally* satisfied, not that each gives
>> >> up something in exchange for being *partly* satisfied.
AFAICS, "consensus" does not specify the degree of satisfaction of the
parties. My Merriam-Webster gives the primary definition as merely "general
agreement". Particular uses of the word cover the gamut, from compromise-
through-exhaustion, to brainstorming a better solution than anyone had
started with.
>> >Um, no.
>> >If there were a solution that meant *all* parties were to be *totally*
>> >satisfied, there would be no need to reach a consensus. Consensus
>> >simply means that all parties find the solution *acceptable*. But
>> >acceptable is a far cry from "totally satisfied". And acceptable often
>> >means compromise from the ideal (what would totally satisfy).
I don't see that particular case being specified by the word, either.
>> No, I think Angi is using terminology from Covey's "Seven Habits of Highly
>> Effective People." Covey advocates thinking beyond a traditional win-loss setup
>> to one in which both parties end up totally satisfied -- a win-win. He
>> differentiates that from a compromise -- in which both parties give up
>> something.
In a particular context, with clear definitions, that's fine. But one
cannot use such a peculiar definition (*especially* if it's the current fad
in business-management newspeak) to try to misinterpret another's use of
the common English meaning.
>> Covey described an outlook in which parties look try to really understand the
>> situation from the other person's viewpoint, in order to help brainstorm
>> solutions...
I'll agree that in such situations, a better solution may arise than either
party had conceived before the brainstorming. OTOH, one party may also be
manipulated by the other into an outright concession, in the name of
"consensus". Also, I'd assert that consensus of this sort presupposes a
degree of equality of status among the participants.
>I'm familliar with Covey and his "win-win or no deal" approach. But
>that doesn' change the definition of "consensus".
Right, any more than the latest atrocity concerning the overuse of the word
"solution" in business redefines it.
Where is Cindy Kandolf when we need her?
Alan Monro
rebecca didt <pge9...@studserv.uni-leipzig.de> wrote in message
news:37A574DE...@studserv.uni-leipzig.de...
>
>
> Janejane26 wrote:
>
> > I've been lucky up to now with the twos but I think they've just turned
> > terrible on me. We seem to spend most of the day fighting each other
over what
> > she wants to do and what I'll let her do. The tears switch on about
every ten
> > minutes it seems like. I used to be able to redirect, but that doesn't
seem to
> > be working as well,
>
>
> > I'm becoming very testy.
>
>
> > Ex: Eating yogurt. She starts to smear it on the furniture.
>
you don't
> want her to do this. Don't waste your breath/time.
>
furniture, etc.
> > Cute child peers out of corner of her eyes and does it again. I
reiterate.
> > Please don't do that Sarah. I'll have to take it away from you if
you're just
away
> > and we have the tears.
>
she'll
> learn that you have zero-tolerance for that wind-up.
>
up my
> > coke can.
>
>
> > Terrorizes the yorkshire terrier.
>
> Don't know about this; we have no pets...just kids :-).
>
>
>
> > playing in the toilet.
>
>
> > patience level for doing anything for an extended period of time has
do.
>
> Go out. Pack up the kid, dog, toys, tricycle, sand toys.... take a picnic
(get her
> to help you make it up/stick things in a bag) and just go. Park, zoo,
whatever. Run
> her ragged. She'll be hungry; throwing food won't seem nearly as
interesting as
> eating it. She'll be tired; she'll go to bed earlier and sleep better.
She'll be
> stomping on grass/concrete and not your furniture, she'll be playing with
the dog
> rather than making his life hell. Hopefully. It's probably worth a
>
> >
> > I'm finding myself staying up late to have some quiet time so I can
recover,
> > but all I'm doing is making myself tired for the next day, but I can't
make
better?
> >
> > Jane
>
>
>