Kumon math
Rosalie B.
way ahead of his class in math.
grandma Rosalie
H Schinske
>way ahead of his class in math.
>
>grandma Rosalie
I've certainly heard of it, but more often for remedial work than advanced
work. I imagine the benefit either way is mostly from the one-on-one attention
and not so much their methods (which I have not heard anything very great or
very terrible about).
--Helen
Sue
nothing but good things about the program.
--
Sue
mom to three girls
"Rosalie B." <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:g7h84v0r8a9mncvr7...@4ax.com...
Rosalie B.
I think that the advantages (from what I've seen of it) is both the
individual attention and the careful building on previous skills with
interesting drills.
My dd was concerned that her ds was not paying enough attention to his
homework, so she started this system with him. He's in 3rd grade, and
his class is just doing times tables, and he's already doing division
with remainders.
grandma Rosalie
toto
I haven't seen the materials although I have heard of it.
I don't see it as a program for acceleration though since it
concentrates on the basic skills from what I have seen.
A quote from another forum about it says that it is a linear
mastery learning approach to the basic calculation skills
:Kumon utilizes a linear, rather than spiral, approach to
:teaching its curriculum. This means that each student
:must master one concept before moving on to another.
:No student gets to fractions without having mastered
:addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. And no
:student leaves fractions without a complete and thorough
:understanding of them.
Since Kumon schools are franchised, I would expect results
to be somewhat uneven depending on the quality of the
instructors.
It is entirely worksheet based which does not necessarily
develop mathematical intuition and concepts. It does start
students with success by making sure they are able to
complete their first worksheets consistently in the given
time frame.
Dorothy
--
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
source unknown
H Schinske
>A quote from another forum about it says that it is a linear
>mastery learning approach to the basic calculation skills
>
>:Kumon utilizes a linear, rather than spiral, approach to
>:teaching its curriculum. This means that each student
>:must master one concept before moving on to another.
>:No student gets to fractions without having mastered
>:addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. And no
>:student leaves fractions without a complete and thorough
>:understanding of them.
I can see how this might be useful for some kids, but I think it would be
maddening to others. I find basic operations with fractions much simpler than
long division, for instance, and it seems to me to make sense to introduce
fractions alongside of simple division. That's how the curriculum my daughters
are using does it. It's a stranded curriculum and I find it sometimes a little
"bitty," particularly the logic and set theory, which aren't really connected
to the other portions, but the geometry is quite fun.
--Helen
Bruce and Jeanne
> way ahead of his class in math.
>
> grandma Rosalie
It's pretty popular here in my neck of the woods (where the parents seem to
strive for overachieving children). I've seen the materials and I'm not
impressed. It's basically worksheets that you can find in any math
workbook. But having said that, it could be the one-on-one attention and
how they use the worksheets that makes the difference. If my child has
problems with math, I might consider paying the money to help her (it's
very expensive from what I hear). I'm not sure about using it for
advancement although that's how I see many parents using it.
Because my dad was a mathematician, we had math workbooks lying around the
house (other people have novels...). What I liked were books (not
workbooks) with logic problems and riddles - they seemed to be more fun and
helped with reasoning.
Jeanne
Sue
to get her where she needs to be. We have tried everything with her and are
at the last straw. She is doing very poorly in math. She is in 4th grade,
but only has a limited 1st grade knowledge of what she is doing. It didn't
seem expensive to me at all. The price I was quoted was $80 a month, with
two sessions for class and there was the work sheet every night.
--
Sue
mom to three girls
"Bruce and Jeanne" <bridge...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hpScnaFKkvO...@comcast.com...
Beth Kevles
Hi -
In our house, we've been teaching math the same way we've been teaching
language and reading. That is, we incorporate numeracy into most of the
things we do. For example, when I need the kids to hurry, I tell them
they have until I count to 100 to finish what they need to do. And then
I count by 5's, or 2's or whatever. When they were little (up to about
age 5) we would count the stairs whenever we had steps to climb. And
we'd count by 1's, by 2's, in English, in French, by elements (from the
periodic table) etc. All of these things gave them a very deep sense of
number and of sequence.
When we moved on to simple addition ("I don't have as many M&M's as my
brother. OK. How many more do you need?") we had them use their
fingers to add. And then toes. We use our extensive supply of Legos as
"math manipulatives", and don't hesitate to work on math at the supper
table, on long drives in the car, etc.
(We did much the same with reading, but that's a different discussion.)
It helps that my husband and I both use math a lot in our work, so we're
both very familiar and comfortable with it. But the result of OUR
enjoyment of math is that the kids (now 5 and 7) love math too, and are
good at it.
I'd love to hear ways that other parents have incorporated math into the
routine of living in ways that their young children enjoy.
--Beth Kevles
bethk...@aol.com
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.
Sharon Fitzgerald
What the the advantage in being accelerated in math (or anything) in
third grade?
In my experience, it wasn't positive because at some point I ended up
repeating work. I moved and changed schools between fifth and sixth
grade and went from the top school in Queens to a middling one. Most of
the work I did in sixth was a complete repeat of what I had already
done, and the clearest memory of this was in math. The teacher and the
other kids knew I had done the material and I wasn't much liked for
being a "ringer". The teacher rarely called on me because his job was
to teach the other kids new material. The next year I went to junior
high in a special progress (SP) program and it again became challenging.
It seems to me that unless you can maintain the acceleration, there's no
advantage.
And on the issue of tutors, I know that other kids in my girls' class
and kids in our neighborhood who go to other schools have private
tutors. I know this because that's the reason given when they can't
play after school. Since its unlikely that all these kids are having
remedial work, I assume the tutors are to accelerate them. But at least
in one case, the parents are very wealthy, both have careers in
advertising and live on the nicest property I have seen in the San
Juan-Guaynabo area by far, and the tutor is there to help the kid do her
homework.
If there was a point, I would hire a tutor. But if the homework stays
under an hour, I really don't mind helping them. After all day at
school and work, I miss them!
sharon, momma to savannah and willow (11/11/94)
Ericka Kammerer
> I'd love to hear ways that other parents have incorporated math into the
> routine of living in ways that their young children enjoy.
We do a reasonable amount of that. The kids have a very
good grasp of math concepts. I'm not sure how much impact it
had, though. I mean, I'm sure it didn't hurt, but they both
seem naturally inclined in that direction, so I'm not sure
whether the chicken came first, or the egg ;-) We found that
an abacus was utterly fascinating to them (Russian to start
with).
Best wishes,
Ericka
Bruce and Jeanne
"Sharon Fitzgerald" <saf...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3E450482...@attglobal.net...
>
> What the the advantage in being accelerated in math (or anything) in
> third grade?
>
>
> advantage.
>
That was my sister's experience as well. Being accelerated in elementary
school seems to alienate the child from his classmates more than anything
else. My nephew is pretty gifted in math. When he was in 1st grade, my
sister had him tested and he got into the John Hopkins program, so she got
him the CD classes. He loved it. And eventually found himself two grades
above his peers. Well, then it became harder to get him motivated (what's
the point?). She stopped the program because she realized the more he was
in it, the farther ahead he pulled and that was creating a problem.
So, he's still two classes ahead of his peers. For math, he gets pulled
out of his classroom and sent to the class two grades ahead. Ugh. Luckily,
there's another boy in his grade in the same situation, so my nephew isn't
the *only* one.
Jeanne
Bruce and Jeanne
"Sue" <sburke...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:C-mcnWQrK8R...@comcast.com...
> I personally won't be using it as to advance my daughter. Well,
advancement
> to get her where she needs to be. We have tried everything with her and
are
> at the last straw. She is doing very poorly in math. She is in 4th grade,
> but only has a limited 1st grade knowledge of what she is doing. It didn't
> seem expensive to me at all. The price I was quoted was $80 a month, with
> two sessions for class and there was the work sheet every night.
> --
> Sue
> mom to three girls
>
Is that two sessions a week or two sessions a month? If it's two sessions a
week, then I agree, it's not very expensive. But at two sessions a month,
that comes out to $40 a session. Is that really the going rate for math
tutors? Does tutoring really cost that much?
Also, if your daughter is really doing that poorly wouldn't she need to meet
with her tutor / have sessions more often? When I tutored in high school
and college, I would meet with my tutorees (tutees?) once a week for an
hour.
Jeanne
Rosalie B.
>"Rosalie B." wrote:
>>
>> hsch...@aol.com (H Schinske) wrote:
>>
>> >>Has anyone heard of this? - one of my grandsons is doing it, and he's
>> >>way ahead of his class in math.
>> >>
>> >>grandma Rosalie
>> >
>> >I've certainly heard of it, but more often for remedial work than advanced
>> >work. I imagine the benefit either way is mostly from the one-on-one attention
>> >and not so much their methods (which I have not heard anything very great or
>> >very terrible about).
>>
>> I think that the advantages (from what I've seen of it) is both the
>> individual attention and the careful building on previous skills with
>> interesting drills.
>>
>> My dd was concerned that her ds was not paying enough attention to his
>> homework, so she started this system with him. He's in 3rd grade, and
>> his class is just doing times tables, and he's already doing division
>> with remainders.
>
>What the the advantage in being accelerated in math (or anything) in
>third grade?
>
>In my experience, it wasn't positive because at some point I ended up
>repeating work. I moved and changed schools between fifth and sixth
>grade and went from the top school in Queens to a middling one. Most of
>the work I did in sixth was a complete repeat of what I had already
>done, and the clearest memory of this was in math. The teacher and the
The same thing happened to me when I was given Algebra in 8th grade
(which was much less common then - this was back in 1950 and we didn't
even have calculus in HS), and repeated it in the 9th grade in a
different school system. Since the 9th grade teacher was a washout, I
was only one of three people in the class that passed the test to take
Alg II in the 10th grade. One of those was a guy who was a ham radio
operator, and the other was the son of the county health officer
(maybe he had a tutor). But then I got off to a poor start in Alg II
(found I could get a C without doing my homework, so I didn't) and
then had to switch teachers, and found I totally didn't know what I
was doing and had to have a tutor to pass.
DD#2 took calculus in college instead of HS in her senior year. Then
she retook it in college, and this was an easy course for her so she
could concentrate on the other things that were harder.
>other kids knew I had done the material and I wasn't much liked for
>being a "ringer". The teacher rarely called on me because his job was
>to teach the other kids new material. The next year I went to junior
>high in a special progress (SP) program and it again became challenging.
I was like that all through school, but particularly in 6th grade I
rarely got called on because the teacher knew that I knew the
material. I took the opportunity to read under the desk.
In our county the kids who are accelerated in math (for instance
they've had Alg II in the 7th grade) go to the high school for math
classes when they are in 8th grade middle school. (It's right next
door.)
>It seems to me that unless you can maintain the acceleration, there's no
>advantage.
>
The examples above show that this is a very much YMMV proposition.
My dd and my grandson are both very competitive people. I think she
did this because he was giving her a lot of grief about practicing the
skills enough in order to get good at them. And she didn't have the
skills or (quite frankly) the patience to figure out how to do it so
that it was fun or interesting for him. It sounds to me it isn't
about acceleration so much as it is practice at a mental skill. It
doesn't seem to me to be especially working on concepts - more about
the process.
>And on the issue of tutors, I know that other kids in my girls' class
>and kids in our neighborhood who go to other schools have private
>tutors. I know this because that's the reason given when they can't
>play after school. Since its unlikely that all these kids are having
>remedial work, I assume the tutors are to accelerate them. But at least
>in one case, the parents are very wealthy, both have careers in
>advertising and live on the nicest property I have seen in the San
>Juan-Guaynabo area by far, and the tutor is there to help the kid do her
>homework.
My dd has had tutors of some type for her kids right along, if you
include athletic skills - her son has regular batting practice, and
now a pitching tutor. (I'm not counting the classes for gymnastics,
tennis etc that they've been in, or things like football and
basketball teams, or swimming lessons.)
I've had a tutor myself in math and in languages especially in HS. In
some cases the tutor was my mom. In math it was to catch me up in
algebra, and in language it was to accelerate so that I could go into
Intermediate French in college with only one year of HS French.
Turned out to be a bad idea, but that's another story.
>If there was a point, I would hire a tutor. But if the homework stays
>under an hour, I really don't mind helping them. After all day at
>school and work, I miss them!
>
>sharon, momma to savannah and willow (11/11/94)
grandma Rosalie
Clisby Williams
Bruce and Jeanne wrote:
>
>
>So, he's still two classes ahead of his peers. For math, he gets pulled
>out of his classroom and sent to the class two grades ahead. Ugh. Luckily,
>there's another boy in his grade in the same situation, so my nephew isn't
>the *only* one.
>
>Jeanne
>
>
>
Why "ugh"? That sounds great to me.
Clisby
>
>
Wordy One
> Is that two sessions a week or two sessions a month? If it's two sessions a
> week, then I agree, it's not very expensive. But at two sessions a month,
> that comes out to $40 a session. Is that really the going rate for math
> tutors? Does tutoring really cost that much?
>
> Also, if your daughter is really doing that poorly wouldn't she need to meet
> with her tutor / have sessions more often? When I tutored in high school
> and college, I would meet with my tutorees (tutees?) once a week for an
> hour.
>
> Jeanne
>
I tutored math in New York City last year (not Kumon, just regular
tutoring) and I made $50 an hour. Admittedly, NYC prices may be
inflated compared to the rest of the country. They had tried to hire
tutors at $25 and got no takers so they upped the pay to $50.
>
toto
Well, my son's experience was good because he loved math and science
and wanted to learn more. He was bored with the math in the traditional
classes. He was always cross-teamed and there were several other children
in his classes who were on this level.
Of course, we didn't move so the acceleration was maintained throughout
his school days. My dd also loved reading and the Great Books program
pulled kids from various age groups for discussions of that.
I don't believe we should keep kids from learning and accelerating if they
want to do it, but I don't believe we should push them into it if they are not
interested.
toto
<bridge...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Because my dad was a mathematician, we had math workbooks lying around the
>house (other people have novels...). What I liked were books (not
>workbooks) with logic problems and riddles - they seemed to be more fun and
>helped with reasoning.
>
>Jeanne
We always had math books around our house too and my kids both enjoyed
looking through them. We never excluded them from any book they wanted
to read and it seems to have paid off with both kids in terms of interest in
learning all kinds of things.
toto
>I personally won't be using it as to advance my daughter. Well, advancement
>to get her where she needs to be. We have tried everything with her and are
>at the last straw. She is doing very poorly in math. She is in 4th grade,
>but only has a limited 1st grade knowledge of what she is doing. It didn't
>seem expensive to me at all. The price I was quoted was $80 a month, with
>two sessions for class and there was the work sheet every night.
>--
>Sue
>mom to three girls
But worksheets are drill and don't bring much understanding.
You might want to look into getting a set of cuisenaire rods and
helping her work with them if she is a tactile and concrete learner.
toto
>
>Hi -
>
>In our house, we've been teaching math the same way we've been teaching
>language and reading. That is, we incorporate numeracy into most of the
>things we do. For example, when I need the kids to hurry, I tell them
>they have until I count to 100 to finish what they need to do. And then
>I count by 5's, or 2's or whatever. When they were little (up to about
>age 5) we would count the stairs whenever we had steps to climb. And
>we'd count by 1's, by 2's, in English, in French, by elements (from the
>periodic table) etc. All of these things gave them a very deep sense of
>number and of sequence.
>
We counted the stairs as we went up and down.
We also had hundreds charts with counting, addition and muliplication
on the walls. My son claims he fell asleep looking at the patterns and
thinking about how they happened when he was quite young.
>When we moved on to simple addition ("I don't have as many M&M's as my
>brother. OK. How many more do you need?") we had them use their
>fingers to add. And then toes. We use our extensive supply of Legos as
>"math manipulatives", and don't hesitate to work on math at the supper
>table, on long drives in the car, etc.
>
You can do this with blocks too. Very young children can see how many
more blocks they need to make the tower high enough to be up to their
chin or their head.
Many activities we do all the time lend themselves to math concepts
Setting the table gives a feel for one to one correspondence.
If you sew or cook or bake, measuring, perimeter, area, volume, etc.
come in naturally. So does multiplication or division if you need to
change a recipe.
If you play with sand or water and various containers, the idea of
conservation of volume is used especially if you talk about how
the tall thin cup holds the same amount as the short fat one.
>(We did much the same with reading, but that's a different discussion.)
>
>It helps that my husband and I both use math a lot in our work, so we're
>both very familiar and comfortable with it. But the result of OUR
>enjoyment of math is that the kids (now 5 and 7) love math too, and are
>good at it.
>
>I'd love to hear ways that other parents have incorporated math into the
>routine of living in ways that their young children enjoy.
>
When we went shopping, the kids often picked out various foods and
compared prices for the lowest price. That meant they had to see if the
unit price was more or less on different packages too.
Since kids like to help, anything you do where you let them make decisions
is a fun thing for them.
We also had them figure out the change due when we paid for things at
a restaurant or store.
>--Beth Kevles
> bethk...@aol.com
> http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
> Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
> advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.
Dorothy
H Schinske
>I tutored math in New York City last year (not Kumon, just regular
>tutoring) and I made $50 an hour. Admittedly, NYC prices may be
>inflated compared to the rest of the country. They had tried to hire
>tutors at $25 and got no takers so they upped the pay to $50.
Geez, maybe I should try that!
--Helen
H Schinske
>> third grade?
To maintain interest. Math is like music, you have to do it at the right tempo
or it gets much harder. Sitting through classes that are below your level is
stultifying and teaches you to tune out and hate the subject. Then when they
finally get around to teaching you something interesting, your brain won't move
any longer. I've been through that experience, and it was horrible. I don't
want my daughters (or my son, but he isn't old enough to worry about yet) to
have to go through that. I want math to stay easy and natural for them.
--Helen
Sharon Fitzgerald
Right. My question was in reference to people who accelerate their kid
for the sake of it.
sharon
Sue
--
Sue
mom to three girls
"Bruce and Jeanne" <bridge...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:v7SdnaABofM...@comcast.com...
Irene
> I'd love to hear ways that other parents have incorporated math into the
> routine of living in ways that their young children enjoy.
Well, so far it's pretty basic, since ds is only 18 (almost 19!)
months old. But, I've always counted his arms when getting him
dressed (here's the first arm. Here's the second arm.) and count
things like how many scoops of coffee go in the coffeemaker. I guess
it's paying off - a couple days ago, I offered him a cookie. His
response? "Two??" "No, just one" "ok" So, I guess he's figured out
one and two!
Irene
Mom to Thomas 7/10/01
Bruce and Jeanne
"H Schinske" <hsch...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030208171743...@mb-bk.aol.com...
That's what I was thinking!
Jeanne
Bruce and Jeanne
"Clisby Williams" <cli...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E4530B7...@mindspring.com...
proud of him. But socially it can be a negative. In a G/T school, he's
known as a nerd and a human computer. (where as one mother said, "all the
kids would be labeled nerds in non-GT schools") It's also intimidating for
a younger student to walk into a classroom of older students for one class,
in which he almost inevitably outscores them. Quite frankly, I wouldn't
want to be in his shoes (and for the first month, he didn't want to be in
them either - it was just the math that kept him going). Next year, he'll
have to go to the middle school for math class and that's already has
everyone thinking about how he will get from the elementary school to the
middle school and back again (no public or public school transportation,
obviously).
While I agree with everyone else that you want to foster a child's interest
in a particular subject, especially if they're good at it, at some point it
can become problematic - when the child is singled out in a negative way,
being mocked for his abilities. It's a balancing act. My sister and BIL
seem to be doing a good job.
My nephew is lucky in that he knows he comes from a family of math "nerds"
(on my side, 3 mathematicians, all his uncles and aunts were either math or
math/physics or physics majors) and on his father's side (3 engineers). So,
he has a lot of family support in his academic endeavors.
FWIW we also cheer any literary accomplishments (maybe because they were so
rare among our generation).
Jeanne
Bruce and Jeanne
> It's two sessions a week, with worksheet/homework every night.
> --
> Sue
> mom to three girls
>
I agree it's a good price then. I wonder why the parents in my area say
it's expensive? I haven't looked into it because my daughter's only in
kindergarten and she seems to be on grade-level with her peers. But some of
these parents have already enrolled their kindergarteners into Kumon and
there's been no sign of any learning problems in school. I guess it's a
high price when there's no learning disability.
Thanks,
Jeanne
toto
<bridge...@comcast.net> wrote:
>It's also intimidating for a younger student to walk
>into a classroom of older students for one class,
>in which he almost inevitably outscores them.
This is one reason why it helps to have peers of the
same age who are on his level, I suppose.
In my son's high school, there were enough kids who
did well in math for example to have a class of 6th, 7th
and 8th graders taking honors geometry and then to
continue these kids at the high school together in the
next honors and AP math classes. The kids who completed
high school courses (multivariate Calculus was the highest
one offered) could take further math at the local Community
college or at Northwestern free until they graduated.
The biggest problem with this though was that the 10th
graders who took honors geometry were a bit upset that
the younger kids set the curve on the final exam. They
always scored higher than the sophomores and freshman
who took the exam which was standardized across the
math department.
H Schinske
>The biggest problem with this though was that the 10th
>graders who took honors geometry were a bit upset that
>the younger kids set the curve on the final exam. They
>always scored higher than the sophomores and freshman
>who took the exam which was standardized across the
>math department.
That implies a social culture in which exam results are constantly discussed
and ranked. When I was taking honors geometry in 10th grade, I don't remember
anybody doing that (good thing, too, I was not doing terribly well in that
course as I recall). Grades were essentially between you and your teacher and
your parents. People may have jumped up and down a little over getting an A,
but it was the A they cared about, not getting a better score than Joe Blow.
Anyway it's that culture that is the problem, seems to me, not that individuals
can usually do a lot about it.
--Helen
Robyn Kozierok
Clisby Williams <cli...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Bruce and Jeanne wrote:
>
>>So, he's still two classes ahead of his peers. For math, he gets pulled
>>out of his classroom and sent to the class two grades ahead. Ugh. Luckily,
>>there's another boy in his grade in the same situation, so my nephew isn't
>>the *only* one.
>>
>
In my experience, (both as a child and a parent) there are a lot of
"ugh" issues with this type of setup.
In the short-term there are logistical issues -- first they have to find
a class of the appropriate grade having math at the same time your child's
class is. And then there frequently seem to be issues with one or the
other classes' schedules being rearranged for special events, assemblies,
standardized testing etc.
In the longer-term there are issues of continuity. Will a class whose
timing matches up be found the next year? What happens when the child
needs to go to a grade that is not present at the same school? What
happens when the child moves to another school that is less willing to
continue the acceleration, etc....
That's not to say that I'd prefer letting a child suffer in boredom in
a class where they're not learning, but just that most school setups make
this kind of thing non-trivial.
--Robyn
toto
>Dorothy (scar...@wicked.witch) wrote:
>
>>The biggest problem with this though was that the 10th
>>graders who took honors geometry were a bit upset that
>>the younger kids set the curve on the final exam. They
>>always scored higher than the sophomores and freshman
>>who took the exam which was standardized across the
>>math department.
>
>That implies a social culture in which exam results are constantly
>discussed and ranked.
No, not at all. But the exam grades were posted in the classrooms
by ID number as they often are in colleges. So the kids did know
which classes were getting better grades on the exam itself.
>When I was taking honors geometry in 10th grade, I don't
>remember anybody doing that (good thing, too, I was not doing
>terribly well in that course as I recall). Grades were essentially
>between you and your teacher and your parents. People may
>have jumped up and down a little over getting an A, but it was
>the A they cared about, not getting a better score than Joe Blow.
I agree that this is as it should be, but kids in our honors classes
did know that the younger kids were the ones who did the best.
Actually, grades should not even matter, since grades are ranking
kids. It's the learning that matters, but that is not the culture of
any school nowadays.
>Anyway it's that culture that is the problem, seems to me, not that
>individuals can usually do a lot about it.
>
>--Helen
Dorothy
H Schinske
>>That implies a social culture in which exam results are constantly
>>discussed and ranked.
and Dorothy (scar...@wicked.witch) responded:
>
>No, not at all. But the exam grades were posted in the classrooms
>by ID number as they often are in colleges. So the kids did know
>which classes were getting better grades on the exam itself.
But why were they posted at all? Why was rank order considered important? We
were just given our graded tests back, and not told anything about how others
had done unless there was something particular to be done about it -- e.g., "It
seems there was a question on the test that nearly all of you misunderstood, so
I'll go over it again today."
It just seems very odd to me to make a big deal out of it. I can't see how
competitiveness can be particularly good for learning, except in occasional,
not-too-serious small doses (over a game or something).
--Helen
Rosalie B.
>I wrote:
>
>>>That implies a social culture in which exam results are constantly
>>>discussed and ranked.
>
>and Dorothy (scar...@wicked.witch) responded:
>>
>>No, not at all. But the exam grades were posted in the classrooms
>>by ID number as they often are in colleges. So the kids did know
>>which classes were getting better grades on the exam itself.
>
>But why were they posted at all? Why was rank order considered important? We
>were just given our graded tests back, and not told anything about how others
>had done unless there was something particular to be done about it -- e.g., "It
>seems there was a question on the test that nearly all of you misunderstood, so
>I'll go over it again today."
Sometimes the tests are not given back. I often had tests where they
were done on scantron strips, and there was no real reason to give
them back - they didn't say anything - just a bunch of numbers and
letters.
>It just seems very odd to me to make a big deal out of it. I can't see how
>competitiveness can be particularly good for learning, except in occasional,
>not-too-serious small doses (over a game or something).
>
The kids make a big deal of it. They will know or find out what the
top score is. Even if the teacher just gives the tests back and
doesn't comment about the grades.
This depends a bit on what level they are at - I would suspect there's
less in grade school maybe. But some kid will comment (crow), "I got
an A (or 89 or B or only missed one)" and someone will chime in if
they did better. Mostly this is the kids who do well - the ones who
don't are quiet.
And some kids are just super competitive from the git-go. I was
talking to dd#1 on Sunday. She was comparing (I know, I know) her
three children and her siblings and sister #2 's children as far as
determination and competiveness.
She said her oldest would believe you you told him that he couldn't do
something, and would then not try. We kind of felt that my ds was
also somewhat that way.
Her second one she said, you might beat her at something once, but
you'd better believe that she would practice at whatever it was until
she could beat you. She felt that her oldest was much more capable
than her middle one, but he dropped out of college because there was
too much pressure and too much work, whereas she has a scholarship and
is succeeding well.
She said her sister's dd was much more competitive than her older
brother or her mom (which I find very hard to believe) and that when
she decides that she wants to do something, it's Katy Bar the Door -
she WILL do it. (This is a child that is 3 and has not had any school
to speak of)
Her mom (DD#2) was also competitive, but was as apt to psych herself
out of doing well as she was to do the opposite. DD#2's main
objective in HS was to graduate with a higher rank in class than dd#1
- which she did dd#1 was 7th and dd#2 was 3rd.
DD#1 is determined to put her youngest son into 3rd grade when she
gets back to the states this summer because she fears that her son has
missed so much of the required curriculum here in MD by going to
school in England that he will get discouraged and lose self esteem.
She feels that he is behind where his cousin in FL (both cousins are
close in age although her child is 3 months younger, and they are both
currently in 3rd grade) is in Math (he hasn't yet done two number
addition or subtraction whereas his cousin is up to multiplication),
in writing (he's not writing cursive yet), and of course he hasn't had
any US history or anything of that nature. Plus there will be the
problem of his accent and vocabulary of course.
grandma Rosalie
toto
>I wrote:
>
>>>That implies a social culture in which exam results are constantly
>>>discussed and ranked.
>
>and Dorothy (scar...@wicked.witch) responded:
>>
>>No, not at all. But the exam grades were posted in the classrooms
>>by ID number as they often are in colleges. So the kids did know
>>which classes were getting better grades on the exam itself.
>
>But why were they posted at all? Why was rank order considered
>important? We were just given our graded tests back, and not told
>anything about how others had done unless there was something
>particular to be done about it -- e.g., "It seems there was a question
>on the test that nearly all of you misunderstood, so I'll go over it again
>today."
>
That was true of other exams, but not the departmental final.
Perhaps because it was a final that was taken by all students in the
course no matter what teacher they had and no matter what grade
they were actually in. It was more similar to the way my college
worked than to anything else.
>It just seems very odd to me to make a big deal out of it. I can't
>see how competitiveness can be particularly good for learning,
>except in occasional, not-too-serious small doses (over a game or
>something).
>
I didn't say it was good. And the teachers did not make a big
deal out of it. It was more of a passing comment thing for most
of the kids - you know- those nerdy little middle schoolers.. that
kind of thing. OTOH, grades are ranking devices. They are
generally not indicators solely of how well *you* did, but of how
well you did in relation to others in your class. Otherwise, why
have a valedictorian, for example, yet I don't know of any high
schools that don't have them.
I also know that on college applications, rank in class counted.
Of course rank in class for sophomores was not really effected
by the grades of the younger or older kids in terms of overall
gpas anyway. This was only on the final exams for a specific
course where kids of various ages were taking the same material.
Now, while I don't think that it is that important, I do think that kids
are very aware of how they stack up compared to others even in
elementary school. When the reading groups were called Bluebirds
and Cardinals, etc., you can still bet that kids know what group is
the advanced one and which is the low one. It's simply a fact of life.
>--Helen
Dorothy
--
toto
wrote:
>That's not to say that I'd prefer letting a child suffer in boredom in
>a class where they're not learning, but just that most school setups
>make this kind of thing non-trivial.
>
>--Robyn
Which is why the school setups need to be changed, imo.
I think we need multiage classrooms where older children
can help younger ones with some skills and younger children
who are ready to progress academically can do so at a faster
pace.
I think that children should move on to new material as they
master old material not because they have gotten older or
gotten a grade of C or better in some subjects but not all of
the things they need.
I think that the curriculum should be assigned depending on
subject matter so that each child's strengths and weaknesses
are attended to. A child who is good at mathematics should
be advanced in that subject, yet stay at a lower level in reading
if he is not ready to advance in that area. The same would be
true of a child who is good at English or art or music or history
or any other subject.
I think that teachers should stay with their grade school students
for several years so that they get to know them well and can
accomodate their special styles of learning and their abilities.
I think that subjects should be integrated into project based
learning as children have the skills they need to go into depth.
I think these projects should come from the interests of the
students and should be facilitated by teachers but planned
and executed almost entirely by the students involved in them.
These projects can be organized and planned the way groups
like Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts plan and execute their various
projects and badges.
Distance learning and computer learning also has a place in
this. When there are only a few children at a certain level, we
can use distance learning to get them a group of peers of their
own age or close in age to work with on particular subjects or
projects.
I know this is optimistic, but I think that we need to think about
how our schools should change now that we are no longer
a manufacturing based society.
Dorothy
H Schinske
>OTOH, grades are ranking devices. They are
>generally not indicators solely of how well *you* did, but of how
>well you did in relation to others in your class. Otherwise, why
>have a valedictorian, for example, yet I don't know of any high
>schools that don't have them.
Ours didn't. We had a student who spoke at graduation, but that honor wasn't
chosen by highest grades. I forget if other students voted or if it was teacher
nomination or what, but they chose strictly according to speaking ability.
There was a Scholarship Cup awarded for best all-around student, which didn't
necessarily go to the student with the absolute highest GPA either, as far as I
know, and it was awarded *at* graduation, so it didn't get the student any
brownie points for college.
>
>I also know that on college applications, rank in class counted.
Didn't have that either. Nor honor roll. Wow, my conservative prep school is
looking practically radical now :-)
--Helen
Bruce and Jeanne
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:t0kg4vsds4qdnvf0h...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:44:38 GMT, rob...@nautilus.shore.net (Robyn
Kozierok)
> wrote:
>
> >That's not to say that I'd prefer letting a child suffer in boredom in
> >a class where they're not learning, but just that most school setups
> >make this kind of thing non-trivial.
> >
> >--Robyn
>
> Which is why the school setups need to be changed, imo.
>
> I think we need multiage classrooms where older children
> can help younger ones with some skills and younger children
> who are ready to progress academically can do so at a faster
> pace.
>
> I think that children should move on to new material as they
> master old material not because they have gotten older or
> gotten a grade of C or better in some subjects but not all of
> the things they need.
>
> I think that the curriculum should be assigned depending on
> subject matter so that each child's strengths and weaknesses
> are attended to. A child who is good at mathematics should
> be advanced in that subject, yet stay at a lower level in reading
> if he is not ready to advance in that area. The same would be
> true of a child who is good at English or art or music or history
> or any other subject.
>
Well, you've just convinced me to keep my daughter in her Montessori school
(and pay the tuition). That's how the Montessori schools are run.
Thanks,
Jeanne
Bruce and Jeanne
> I wrote:
>
> >>That implies a social culture in which exam results are constantly
> >>discussed and ranked.
>
> and Dorothy (scar...@wicked.witch) responded:
> >
> >No, not at all. But the exam grades were posted in the classrooms
> >by ID number as they often are in colleges. So the kids did know
> >which classes were getting better grades on the exam itself.
>
> But why were they posted at all? Why was rank order considered important?
We
> were just given our graded tests back, and not told anything about how
others
> had done unless there was something particular to be done about it --
e.g., "It
> seems there was a question on the test that nearly all of you
misunderstood, so
> I'll go over it again today."
>
I agree that posting grades in high school is not a good idea, but did
people in school (middle school, high school) ever ask one another, "so, how
did you do on the test?" It can be an innocent question or it can be
competitive in tone.
> It just seems very odd to me to make a big deal out of it. I can't see how
> competitiveness can be particularly good for learning, except in
occasional,
> not-too-serious small doses (over a game or something).
>
Maybe competition seems odd, but it's also human nature.
Jeanne
Heather W.
>Dorothy (scar...@wicked.witch) wrote:
>
>>OTOH, grades are ranking devices. They are
>>generally not indicators solely of how well *you* did, but of how
>>well you did in relation to others in your class. Otherwise, why
>>have a valedictorian, for example, yet I don't know of any high
>>schools that don't have them.
>
>Ours didn't. We had a student who spoke at graduation, but that honor wasn't
>chosen by highest grades.
Same here - our graduation speaker was voted on by the class, and I
believe a second speaker was chosen by the faculty, but not based on
rank (at least officially ;-)).
>>I also know that on college applications, rank in class counted.
>
>Didn't have that either. Nor honor roll. Wow, my conservative prep school is
>looking practically radical now :-)
Yeah, I did the all-girls' Catholic school thing here, and we were the
same. It was a "non-competative" school (which is bull, it was
highly competitive, but it wasn't sanctioned by the school [and not
all the competition was academic ;-) ]). They did let the top 10% of
the class know they were in the top 10% (in our class, that was six
students), but I don't believe they told them the order, and it wasn't
something that was made common knowledge.
*shrug* I was a lousy student in high school, anyhow, because I just
didn't care. I could chug along for a low-mid B average without
exuding much effort and I did. Much to my parents' dismay.
Heather W
Policy Board member for the proposed group misc.kids.family-life
--
My real address is heather @ operamail dot com.
I very rarely read the one shown as a reply to/from address ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Much madness is divinest sense | Mommy to Rowan Justina (11/6/97)
To a discerning eye -Dickinson | Woman of many talents to myself.
Robyn Kozierok
toto <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:44:38 GMT, rob...@nautilus.shore.net (Robyn Kozierok)
>wrote:
>
>>That's not to say that I'd prefer letting a child suffer in boredom in
>>a class where they're not learning, but just that most school setups
>>make this kind of thing non-trivial.
>>
>>--Robyn
>
>Which is why the school setups need to be changed, imo.
>
>I think we need multiage classrooms where older children
>can help younger ones with some skills and younger children
>who are ready to progress academically can do so at a faster
>pace.
This is essentially where my children are now :) Their school is
a small ungraded school for kids of elementary and middle-school ages.
The entire school is on the same schedule for math and kids are
grouped solely by ability. The reading programs are individualized for
each student. Every student, from the 5yos on up, does an independent
research project on a topic of their own choosing.
It's a great place for kids to learn and grow and become confident
young learners. We're incredibly lucky to have found it.
--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)
toto
<bridge...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Well, you've just convinced me to keep my daughter in her Montessori school
>(and pay the tuition). That's how the Montessori schools are run.
>
>Thanks,
>Jeanne
Some Montessori schools are run this way, but... they lack group work
and social skills so I don't think they do everything I would want to see.
I do think that Montessori schools can be good for some children, but
the fact was that there was not much creativity in the ones I observed
and while I think my son would have thrived, my dd would have hated
it.