Friend hates my daughter
SRHami
What would you do? I've known for awhile that my friend hates the sight
of my daughter (she's almost 5). This friend cringes whenever I speak of
my daughter (I can hear the cringing over the phone). So far I've just
let it slide but the other day this friend went too far. From now on I'll
refer to her as EX-friend. This EX-friend invited our family to her house
for her daughters 2nd birthday party (her only child and a very sweet
girl). My two girls (my other daughter is 2) were the only children
there other than the birthday girl, the rest were adults , several couples
with no children. While we were having cake and ice cream my daughter
(the 5yr old) was sitting in the kitchen with my EX-friend and some other
adults. She was not doing anything wrong other than babbling (she's quite
the motor mouth). Anyhow, here are the comments that this EX-friend made:
"Shut-up!! Just Shut-up!!"(directed to my daughter) "I'd kill her if she
were mine! I hate that kid! I'd never let her get that way in the first
place!!" (said to the other adults). At that point I walked into the
kitchen, shot her a dirty look, grabbed my daughter and had her sit with
me. When it came time to open presents, my daughter couldn't control
herself....she was so excited and wanted to see the things that the
birthday girl got. It wasn't a well planned moment. The EX-friend wanted
everything to be picture perfect. With all the adults crowded around it
was hard for my daughter to see what was going on so she inevitably
climbed over everyone to get a good view. I kept pulling her back and
telling her "no, wait til she's done". My DH, who was clueless about my
EX-friends anomosity towards our daughter, wasn't much help in holding
back our little rascal. The EX-friend was obviously annoyed.
I've never claimed that my kids were "perfect". My daughter certainly
does have
her faults and we deal with them. As I type this my daughter's room is
empty because we took her toys to the basement for not cleaning her room.
We do indeed dicsipline. Still, she's not a terrible kid. She is hyper
and tends to not listen. I haven't met many 4/5 yr olds that do listen
well. She is however very sweet, caring to other children, uses her
manners well and refers to other adults as Ms, Mrs, or Mr. In other words
she's like every other 4/5 yr old....she has her strong points and also
week ones.
It's a shame that my daughter gave more respect to this EX-friend
than what this EX-friend gave to her. I've never actually seen an adult
act worse than a child until that moment.
So what would you folks do? At the moment I feel like doing something
irrational and let her know that i didn't appreciate the way she talked to
my child. However, I will probably do nothing and hope that I never run
into her again. I'm 100% sure that she will not call to apologize because
I don't think she feels that she mistreated my daughter. If she ever did
call she would surely get an earfull.
Sherri
Sherri
SAHMilitaryM to Lauryn Angela, 4 and Angela Renea, 1 (my two "ANGELas")
Samios
> SRHami wrote:
> > While we were having cake and ice cream my daughter
> > (the 5yr old) was sitting in the kitchen with my EX-friend and some
other
> > adults. She was not doing anything wrong other than babbling (she's
quite
> > the motor mouth). Anyhow, here are the comments that this EX-friend
made:
> > "Shut-up!! Just Shut-up!!"(directed to my daughter) "I'd kill her if
she
> > were mine! I hate that kid! I'd never let her get that way in the
first
> > place!!" (said to the other adults).
> >
> > SAHMilitaryM to Lauryn Angela, 4 and Angela Renea, 1 (my two
"ANGELas")
>
Sherri --
It sounds to me that the only thing that should be done is that you tell
your daughter that this ex-friend of yours should have apologized for her
behavior, then tell your daughter that you're sorry that she was treated
like that.
It sounds to me like you daughter was being an over-excited five year old.
However, even if she really was seriously misbehaving (which I personally
don't think she was), this ex-friend had no right to say such things to her
-- it's called verbal abuse. Lord knows I lose my temper with my daughter,
and have certainly lost my temper with other children, but I have never
told a child "I hate you", and if I ever did, I would be apologizing
afterwards until I was blue in the face.
Let's face it, this ex-friend might not have ever been a friend at all --
how could a friend hate your children?
Mary
Karen Branson
SRHami wrote:
>
> What would you do? I've known for awhile that my friend hates the sight
> of my daughter (she's almost 5). This friend cringes whenever I speak of
> my daughter (I can hear the cringing over the phone). So far I've just
> let it slide but the other day this friend went too far. From now on I'll
> refer to her as EX-friend. This EX-friend invited our family to her house
> for her daughters 2nd birthday party (her only child and a very sweet
> girl). My two girls (my other daughter is 2) were the only children
> there other than the birthday girl, the rest were adults , several couples
> (the 5yr old) was sitting in the kitchen with my EX-friend and some other
> adults. She was not doing anything wrong other than babbling (she's quite
> the motor mouth). Anyhow, here are the comments that this EX-friend made:
> "Shut-up!! Just Shut-up!!"(directed to my daughter) "I'd kill her if she
> were mine! I hate that kid! I'd never let her get that way in the first
> SAHMilitaryM to Lauryn Angela, 4 and Angela Renea, 1 (my two "ANGELas")
In the first place, the moment she shouted "Shut-up" and made the
comment of "I'd kill her...." in front of the child, I would have just
got my daughter and left. That would have been the end of the
friendship then and there. If she really has a problem with your
daughters behaviour, she should speak to you in private about it - NOT
shout nasty comments to a 5 y.o. in front of others (kids or adults). I
wouldn't lose any sleep over this. OTOH, I feel like your friend toward
my neighbor's son - the same age as my son. He is a textbook BRAT! He
doesn't obey (his mother or anyone else), has a very smart mouth, shouts
at adults, has no manners, whines, etc. I cringe when I see him (or
hear him). She thinks he is just a normal child - maybe a little
highstrung! I basically just try to avoid our kids playing together.
However, when they do (I *try* not to influence my son's opinion about
him) I tell him, or now that they are older my son tells him, "at our
house, we don't call names, we don't hit, etc. The rules at your house
may be different, but if you can't follow the rules at ours, you will
have to go back home." Then if he doesn't obey, I walk him home and say
the children were having a hard time playing nicely and needed to be
separated. I usually just leave it at that. I would NOT however,
verbally or physically attack the child. As a matter of fact, I don't
think it is his fault - he just gets no consistent discipline or
boundaries from mom. But, he will eventually have to learn that he will
have to follow rules elsewhere. The situation between you and EX-friend
may be similar, or totally different - BUT there is NO reason to attack
a child. This must have been very hurtful to her, and I'm sure she
didn't understand why.
Alice Maalouf
SRHami wrote:
>
> What would you do? I've known for awhile that my friend hates the sight
> of my daughter (she's almost 5). This friend cringes whenever I speak of
> my daughter (I can hear the cringing over the phone). So far I've just
> let it slide but the other day this friend went too far. From now on I'll
> refer to her as EX-friend. This EX-friend invited our family to her house
> for her daughters 2nd birthday party (her only child and a very sweet
> girl). My two girls (my other daughter is 2) were the only children
> there other than the birthday girl, the rest were adults , several couples
> with no children. While we were having cake and ice cream my daughter
> (the 5yr old) was sitting in the kitchen with my EX-friend and some other
> adults. She was not doing anything wrong other than babbling (she's quite
> the motor mouth). Anyhow, here are the comments that this EX-friend made:
> "Shut-up!! Just Shut-up!!"(directed to my daughter) "I'd kill her if she
> were mine! I hate that kid! I'd never let her get that way in the first
> place!!" (said to the other adults). At that point I walked into the
> kitchen, shot her a dirty look, grabbed my daughter and had her sit with
> me.
Ok, at this point I would have said something very nasty, gathered up my children
and left. I think you have shown enormous restraint but I really don't see why you
would want to have anything more do to with this person.
Alice
mom to Genevieve 9/20/96 and Snowbear 12/25/97
Chris and /or Kevin
SRHami wrote:
>
> What would you do? I've known for awhile that my friend hates the sight
> of my daughter (she's almost 5). This friend cringes whenever I speak of
> my daughter (I can hear the cringing over the phone). So far I've just
> let it slide but the other day this friend went too far. From now on I'll
> refer to her as EX-friend. This EX-friend invited our family to her house
> for her daughters 2nd birthday party (her only child and a very sweet
> girl). My two girls (my other daughter is 2) were the only children
> there other than the birthday girl, the rest were adults , several couples
> with no children. While we were having cake and ice cream my daughter
> (the 5yr old) was sitting in the kitchen with my EX-friend and some other
> adults. She was not doing anything wrong other than babbling (she's quite
> the motor mouth). Anyhow, here are the comments that this EX-friend made:
> "Shut-up!! Just Shut-up!!"(directed to my daughter) "I'd kill her if she
> were mine! I hate that kid! I'd never let her get that way in the first
> place!!" (said to the other adults). At that point I walked into the
> kitchen, shot her a dirty look, grabbed my daughter and had her sit with
Hi,
What your ex-friend did was rude and disrespectful. She is the adult
and should behave that way. Regardless of the behaviour of your child.
I would explain to her that she hurt you by talking to your child like
that,
and if she can't act like a grown-up then you are ending the friendship.
And then wait till her kid is 5 years old -- and does the same
thing.:-).
Two year olds are alot easier to control than 5 year olds -- and she
will
be getting a dose of reality in the near future.
Chris
Mom to Kelsey and John
Susan Brown
SRHami wrote:
(most of the appallling behavior of EX friend snipped!)
> than what this EX-friend gave to her. I've never actually seen an adult
> act worse than a child until that moment.
>
> So what would you folks do? At the moment I feel like doing something
> irrational and let her know that i didn't appreciate the way she talked to
> my child. However, I will probably do nothing and hope that I never run
> into her again. I'm 100% sure that she will not call to apologize because
> I don't think she feels that she mistreated my daughter. If she ever did
> call she would surely get an earfull.
> Sherri
> Sherri
> SAHMilitaryM to Lauryn Angela, 4 and Angela Renea, 1 (my two "ANGELas")
I hardly think that your telling this person that you don't appreciate
the way she spoke to your daughter is "irrational". Seems perfectly
rational to me! The least you can do is speak with her--(one last time!)
and relieve your feelings. What a moron!
I heard somewhere "never criticize a child older than your own".
*Someday* she may understand a typical 4 or 5 year old a little better,
and have the grace to be ashamed of herself.
sjb
Mommy! to Miles, 1/27/94, who gets so excited when people come over he
practically comes right out of his skin! And if *anyone* ever told him
to shut up, I'd have to punch them. Really.
Laura
I would do just what you have done. Just curious (ok nosey!!) - your
child sounds like a nice average kid. Any clues why she's like this?
Does she exhibit similar feelings toward other's children? (struck me as
peculiar to have a child's b-day and invite mostly childless folks..)
Oh well, sorry you had to go through this.
Laura
Sara Easler
|> SRHami wrote:
[snip]
|> "Shut-up!! Just Shut-up!!"(directed to my daughter) "I'd kill her if she
|> were mine! I hate that kid! I'd never let her get that way in the first
|> place!!" (said to the other adults). At that point I walked into the
|> kitchen, shot her a dirty look, grabbed my daughter and had her sit with
|> me.
At this point I would have left too. There's absolutely no excuse for this
womans' behavior. No need to say anything about your daughter, nothing that
you or she could do warrants that.
Find someone else to hang out with and make sure your other friends are
aware that she pulls that kind of crap. Gossip. She deserves it.
I'm sure you and your daughter aren't the only ones she's done this to.
Hopefully someone will have some snappy comeback sometime to make her
realize how hurtful it is to do that to any child, much less a guest.
I'd be fuming.
Sara
Diane
I know I am going to regret sending this, but here is what I thought
when I read this.
I immediately thought of my 4 year old nephew. Well, he is 2 months
shy of 4 , and my daughter turned 4 two months ago (so there are 4
months between them). My nephew and his parents were here visiting us
from way far away. This child makes me feel like how your ex-friend
feels. I would never use those words with him, however. She needs to
learn self-control and there is no excuse for what she said in front
of your daughter.
The mother of my nephew also feels that her son is just a normal 4
year old. But everyone around during their visit was disgusted with
how he acted. Now, he basically seems like a good enough kid. He
isn't openly rude or smart-mouthed. His problem is his parent's
doing. They have turned out a VERY whiney spoiled brat. He won't
feed himself. He screams if he doesn't get his way. He kicks and
smacks his mother when she tries to put him in time-out. He doesn't
do anything unless he is bribed to do it. He pestered my daughter
until she'd complain, then she'd get fussed at because it seemed like
she was just being whiney (but he was puposely pissing her off; you
could see this devilish look in his eyes and he knew very well what he
was doing). I too thought she was just being whiney until I secretly
watched them "play" together and saw what he was doing to her. And
his mother is totally oblivious to this. She just says it's the age
and he is just like any other 4 year old. The kids own grandfather
said that his mother has ruined him, and I could never imagine words
like that coming from his mouth.
I have thought many terrible things about this boy, but I would never
say anything to him that is nasty. I have never in my life thought
that spanking was a good thing, but I wouldn't have flinched a bit if
someone would have smacked his butt. My daughter doesn't even like
him, and she likes every kid. My mother took a picture of him on our
swingset, and I can't even stand to look at it because I think
negative thoughts and I feel incredibly guilty about it. But, I will
continue to keep my mouth shut about him to his parents and in front
of him.
So, I'm not saying that your daughter is the equivalent of my nephew.
Some parents need to realize that not all behavior can be passed off
as normal behavior for the age. If a child is making everyone else
crazy, it is probably not every else's problem. Again, I'm not saying
that your child is doing this. Mostly, I am just venting because I am
still not over this visit and the stress it caused everyone. And your
post reminded me of this. I am not directing this to you personally,
but just because a child says "Mr" and "Mrs" and seems to be polite,
doesn't mean he/she isn't doing something to drive others crazy. And
maybe that behavior *isn't* appropriate just because he/she is a
certain age.
Okay, now that I've probably pissed a lot of people off, I'll go hide
somewhere.
srh...@aol.com (SRHami) proudly proclaimed:
>What would you do? I've known for awhile that my friend hates the sight
>of my daughter (she's almost 5). This friend cringes whenever I speak of
>my daughter (I can hear the cringing over the phone). So far I've just
>let it slide but the other day this friend went too far. From now on I'll
>refer to her as EX-friend. This EX-friend invited our family to her house
>for her daughters 2nd birthday party (her only child and a very sweet
>girl). My two girls (my other daughter is 2) were the only children
>there other than the birthday girl, the rest were adults , several couples
>with no children. While we were having cake and ice cream my daughter
>(the 5yr old) was sitting in the kitchen with my EX-friend and some other
>adults. She was not doing anything wrong other than babbling (she's quite
>the motor mouth). Anyhow, here are the comments that this EX-friend made:
> "Shut-up!! Just Shut-up!!"(directed to my daughter) "I'd kill her if she
>were mine! I hate that kid! I'd never let her get that way in the first
>place!!" (said to the other adults). At that point I walked into the
>kitchen, shot her a dirty look, grabbed my daughter and had her sit with
>me. When it came time to open presents, my daughter couldn't control
>herself....she was so excited and wanted to see the things that the
>birthday girl got. It wasn't a well planned moment. The EX-friend wanted
>everything to be picture perfect. With all the adults crowded around it
>was hard for my daughter to see what was going on so she inevitably
>climbed over everyone to get a good view. I kept pulling her back and
>telling her "no, wait til she's done". My DH, who was clueless about my
>EX-friends anomosity towards our daughter, wasn't much help in holding
>back our little rascal. The EX-friend was obviously annoyed.
>
>I've never claimed that my kids were "perfect". My daughter certainly
>does have
>her faults and we deal with them. As I type this my daughter's room is
>empty because we took her toys to the basement for not cleaning her room.
>We do indeed dicsipline. Still, she's not a terrible kid. She is hyper
>and tends to not listen. I haven't met many 4/5 yr olds that do listen
>well. She is however very sweet, caring to other children, uses her
>manners well and refers to other adults as Ms, Mrs, or Mr. In other words
>she's like every other 4/5 yr old....she has her strong points and also
>week ones.
>
>It's a shame that my daughter gave more respect to this EX-friend
>than what this EX-friend gave to her. I've never actually seen an adult
>act worse than a child until that moment.
>
>So what would you folks do? At the moment I feel like doing something
>irrational and let her know that i didn't appreciate the way she talked to
>my child. However, I will probably do nothing and hope that I never run
>into her again. I'm 100% sure that she will not call to apologize because
>I don't think she feels that she mistreated my daughter. If she ever did
>call she would surely get an earfull.
>Sherri
>Sherri
>SAHMilitaryM to Lauryn Angela, 4 and Angela Renea, 1 (my two "ANGELas")
>
Diane (dia...@geocities.com remove the X to reply via e-mail)
SRHami
Thanks to everyone who responded! I feel much better now. Just writing
it all out was a good way to vent. As far as I'm concerned that
friendship ended when she made those comments. I have no intention of
ever contacting her again but should she ever contact me I will give her a
quick earfull and hang up.
It's a difficult situation because our husbands are friends and work
closely together. This means that I'll have to avoid all the parties or
gatherings so that my daughter isn't subjected to that again. Thank
goodness that we will be moving in less than 6mos!!
Just to clear something up, right after she made the comments I told my
husband that I was ready to go. He knew something was wrong but suggested
that we stay until the presents were opened and then leave without a
scene. I agreed. I wish now that we had left right away so that we could
have avoided my daughter's behavoir while the birthday girl was opening
presents.
>I heard somewhere "never criticize a child older than your own".
This was the best advice that I've ever heard.....thanks!! I'm going to
remember this one and remind myself of it often. All kids deserve some
understanding and respect. I demand respect from other's children but I
can't do that if I don't give it in return.
Thanks again everyone for the support. I'm much wiser now and I'm not
even loosing sleep!!! :-)
Alan McKinnon
>SRHami wrote:
>>
>> What would you do? I've known for awhile that my friend hates the sight
>> of my daughter (she's almost 5).
I have a personal rule of my own: I do not go where my son is not
welcome.
If I were to be in a situation like that, I reckon I would decide that
my son is more important to me than a person such as your ex-friend.
Look at it this way: You have to spend almost every day with your own
kids, you are the one that feeds them at 3 in the mornign and so on
and so on. No-one else does this for you, especially not someone who
says she hates the child. You don't have much of an option in this,
when you signed up for parenthood you signed up for the long haul (I
know I did). On the other hand, the same doesn't apply to friendship -
friendship is something freely given and accepted without qualifiers
or "Yes, but..." attached. Tell your friend (sorry, ex-friend) in
whatever way makes you feel comfortable that you don't appreciate what
she did, and that you think you should go your seperate ways.
If she is truly sorry (and it is possible) she'll want to apologize,
or make up or whatever, then you must decide if you think it will be
worth it. Keeping in mind of course that what your child thinks might
just be more important than what you think.
Best of luck,
lan (father of Connor 15.3.97)
Dylan'sMom
If it were me I would simply dis-associate myself from this person. What
kind of a person who is a mother herself talks about or to a child the way
you have described? As time goes by she may wonder why she hasn't seen or
heard from you. If she calls to ask simply tell her why and wish her a
nice life. Don't subject your daughter to this.
--
TBu...@Netgate.compaq.com
SRHami <srh...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970814055...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> What would you do? I've known for awhile that my friend hates the sight
grandma Rosalie
srh...@aol.com (SRHami) wrote:
>Thanks to everyone who responded!=20
>. I have no intention of
>ever contacting her again but should she ever contact me I will give her=
a
>quick earfull and hang up.=20
IMHO if you give her an earful and then hang up you are also
being rude, and she can feel justified (even tho she is really in
the wrong) in being snitty about it.
It would be far better to explain to her kindly and sweetly and
above all quietly that you don't feel that her behavior in front
of your daughter was either appropriate or kind (you could say
Christian if that would be applicable to either you or your
ex-friend). You could add that you think it better if your
daughter isn't subjected to comments that would tend to reduce
her self esteem (current buzzword), and that although a 2yo such
as her child might not understand what was said, that your
daughter is quite bright and does comprehend, even though the
comments were made to others.
This will hopefully embarrass her. She may even get flustered or
possibly apologized. While she may still think you are a kook,
she will be unable to say that you have behaved badly. And if
you meet her later on when the kids are older, it won't be so
awkward.
>It's a difficult situation because our husbands are friends and work
>closely together. This means that I'll have to avoid all the parties or
>gatherings so that my daughter isn't subjected to that again. Thank
>goodness that we will be moving in less than 6mos!! =20
Could you get a sitter and leave the kids at home? Will a feud
between the wives impact on your husband's career.
I didn't have this problem to much with mine because they were
all girls and small for their ages. We did live in so. Ph illy
for a time and there was a little boy of 4 who made my 5 yo
daughter's life miserable. I told her to deal with it or come
into the house and play. I was not going to get into a fight
with the kid's mother over her kid.
However, I now have 5 grandsons, and one of them is quite large
and strong for his age (He walked at 8 months. At 3 he is 40
inches tall and weighs 40 lbs). He is also coordinated, active,
strong willed and adventurous. (Just like his mother, but she
was a girl, and not so big for her age.)
His 2 cousins who are a year older and 4 months younger are much
smaller, and less adventurous - much sweeter and easier children.
My daughter does pretty well I think. She's had to really refine
her priorities - i.e. define what really can NOT be allowed
(throwing things at people, hitting people), to concentrate on
prohibiting those behaviors, or ensuring that he does the things
that he must do (sit in the car seat), and tries not to waste her
energy on fighting with him on less essential things, such as
playing noisily, sitting nicely at the table to eat, etc. My
mother, who had only two very docile little girls does not
understand this little boy, especially as the other
great-grandsons are so much more quiet and biddable. And her
sister, (and possibly to a lesser extent her sister-in-law)
sometimes gets irritated with him. =20
Now that he is three he is much better. Everything will resolve
itself eventually.
grandma Rosalie
Use your own judgement...then do as I say.
Jane Sampson
I think it is lucky you didn't leave straight away and make a fuss as
your daughter would have realised that she had been the cause of it. If
she does mention it, I would just say how embarassing it is when adults
haven't learnt to behave but that there is nothing to worry about as
long as we have good manners. Jane
Kent Parks
Samios (jsa...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us) wrote:
:
: Let's face it, this ex-friend might not have ever been a friend at all --
: how could a friend hate your children?
It's perfectly logical that a friend of yours may dislike, or even hate,
your child...why is that so hard to believe? It does sound like the
"friend" was out of line in saying "I hate you" to a child, although I do
not believe the apparent current standard of parenting wherein other
adults may NEVER criticize the behavior of others' children, especially in
their own home...when I was young, if I acted up in someone's house and
the "hostess" scolded me for it, I'd get scolded by my mom, too. Nowadays,
the "mom" lashes out at the "scolder", "Don't you dare talk to my
child!"...this teaches children that they don't have to listen to any
adults besides their parents, and when they reach their teens, they will
have no respect for authority figures such as teachers, police, pastors,
etc.
Still, yelling "I hate you" to anyone, child or not, is inexcusable, just
as it would be inexcusable coming FROM a child.
Ann Willey
"Samios" (jsa...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us) writes:
>> SRHami wrote:
>> > While we were having cake and ice cream my daughter
>> > (the 5yr old) was sitting in the kitchen with my EX-friend and some
> other
>> > adults. She was not doing anything wrong other than babbling (she's
> quite
>> > the motor mouth). Anyhow, here are the comments that this EX-friend
> made:
>> > "Shut-up!! Just Shut-up!!"(directed to my daughter) "I'd kill her if
> she
>> > were mine! I hate that kid! I'd never let her get that way in the
> first
>> > place!!" (said to the other adults).
>> >
>> > Sherri
>> > SAHMilitaryM to Lauryn Angela, 4 and Angela Renea, 1 (my two
> "ANGELas")
>>
>
> Sherri --
>
> It sounds to me that the only thing that should be done is that you tell
> your daughter that this ex-friend of yours should have apologized for her
> behavior, then tell your daughter that you're sorry that she was treated
> like that.
>
> It sounds to me like you daughter was being an over-excited five year old.
> However, even if she really was seriously misbehaving (which I personally
> don't think she was), this ex-friend had no right to say such things to her
> -- it's called verbal abuse. Lord knows I lose my temper with my daughter,
> and have certainly lost my temper with other children, but I have never
> told a child "I hate you", and if I ever did, I would be apologizing
> afterwards until I was blue in the face.
>
> Let's face it, this ex-friend might not have ever been a friend at all --
> how could a friend hate your children?
>
> Mary
>
This ex-friend, as as well as not ever being a friend in the first place,
could well be one of these childfree people, who dislike children emencely
(sp?), especialy if the ex-friend as no children of her own and has no
intention of having any.
Ann
--
ao...@freenet.carleton.ca(Ann Willey)
"To thine own self be true"
Ann Willey
Kent Parks (pa...@ils.unc.edu) writes:
> Samios (jsa...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us) wrote:
> :
> : Let's face it, this ex-friend might not have ever been a friend at all --
> : how could a friend hate your children?
>
> It's perfectly logical that a friend of yours may dislike, or even hate,
> your child...why is that so hard to believe? It does sound like the
> "friend" was out of line in saying "I hate you" to a child, although I do
> not believe the apparent current standard of parenting wherein other
> adults may NEVER criticize the behavior of others' children, especially in
> their own home...when I was young, if I acted up in someone's house and
> the "hostess" scolded me for it, I'd get scolded by my mom, too. Nowadays,
> the "mom" lashes out at the "scolder", "Don't you dare talk to my
> child!"...this teaches children that they don't have to listen to any
> adults besides their parents, and when they reach their teens, they will
> have no respect for authority figures such as teachers, police, pastors,
> etc.
If children listern to their parents they, are much more likely to respect
authority figures.
>
> Still, yelling "I hate you" to anyone, child or not, is inexcusable, just
> as it would be inexcusable coming FROM a child.
There are people who do hate children, they dislike them in the extreme, you
Kent should know this from your reading alt.support.childfree.
Darlene Thompson
Ann Willey wrote:
> There are people who do hate children, they dislike them in the extreme, you
> Kent should know this from your reading alt.support.childfree.
>
> Ann
Did you read the whole post before you responded to it? The family was
at the ex-friends home for the ex-friends kids birthday party. The child
behaved in an incorrect manner. No matter how excited a child is, the
child should not climb over people. To her credit, the mother of the
child did the best she could under the circumstances, but I would have
left the instant my so-called friend was so hateful to my child. Some of
my friends do not like my step-son, but I know to keep my step-son away
from those friends. If we are invited to their home, we hire a sitter to
avoid a bad situation. In my opinion, since the poster knew that her
friend did not like her child, she should have said they had prior plans
and sent a small gift. If she felt obligated to go, she should have kept
her child out of the ex-friends way since she knew the friend was not a
fan of the childs. No where in the friendship manual does it say that
all friends must like your children. The ex-friend acted like an
overgrown brat herself and was quite rude. The child is owed an apology,
but the mother needs to realize that she is the only person responsible
for watching her daughter.
I get the feeling you don't like alt.support.childfree very well, but it
is quite rude to talk about a newsgroup on another newsgroup where they
can't tell their side of the story. If you have a beef with them, you
should bring it up there.
Darlene (step-mom to Kyle, Tressa, and Shayna)
John Edens
In article <33FFC4...@nospam.com>,
Darlene Thompson <DTho...@nospam.com> wrote:
>I get the feeling you [Ann] don't like alt.support.childfree very well,
but it
>is quite rude to talk about a newsgroup on another newsgroup where they
>can't tell their side of the story. If you have a beef with them, you
>should bring it up there.
>
>Darlene (step-mom to Kyle, Tressa, and Shayna)
No worries, Darlene, most of us on alt.support.childfree don't like Ann
very much.
And to give Ann a little bit of credit, she did bring up her issues with
the group on a.s.c-f, but her poor grammar, poor spelling, and poorly
organized thoughts made it difficult for us to engage in dialog.
I wonder if the folks on misc.kids and other kid-oriented newsgroups are
more tolerant of the sort of grammar, etc, faults Ann displays than the
folks on a.s.c-f simply because those of you who raise small children go
through years of having to learn how to communicate with your children -
most of whom go through years of poor grammar ;-)
John
"Lurking on misc.kids reinforces my goal to remain child-free. Thanks!"
Ann Willey
Darlene Thompson (DTho...@nospam.com) writes:
> Ann Willey wrote:
>
>> There are people who do hate children, they dislike them in the extreme, you
>> Kent should know this from your reading alt.support.childfree.
>>
>> Ann
>
> I get the feeling you don't like alt.support.childfree very well, but it
> is quite rude to talk about a newsgroup on another newsgroup where they
> can't tell their side of the story. If you have a beef with them, you
> should bring it up there.
>
> Darlene (step-mom to Kyle, Tressa, and Shayna)
You could say that I have a problem with some people on that ng, referring
to people with children and people with large families as breeders. They
lurk around misc.kids for entertainment, laughing at the problems some of
you have posted about. I did bring it up to them on that ng and they were
most insulting about my spelling, my writing abilities and my intelligence,
some of them used foul- language and were vulger.
Agogbuay27
>From: ao...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ann Willey)
>Date: 23 Aug 1997 13:13:29 GMT
>This ex-friend, as as well as not ever being a friend in the first place,
>could well be one of these childfree people, who dislike children
emencely
>(sp?), especialy if the ex-friend as no children of her own and has no
>intention of having any.
Did you even read the original post in this thread or are you simply
looking to exercise a grudge against people who don't have children for
some reason?
Just to let you in on a secret, the original "friend" has children. And
the people I know who don't want to have kids don't dislike children
"emencely" [sic] they just don't want kids. That doesn't automatically
make them kid-haters and they are usually incredibly good with kids
anyway.
Sounds to me (from what you've written and from other's posts) that you
are looking for some excuse to carry a grudge against all people who don't
want to have kids. Don't use this newsgroup for such immature reasons.
That's not its purpose.
bez...@rochelle.net
In article <19970814055...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
Sherri wrote:
>
> What would you do? I've known for awhile that my friend hates the sight
> of my daughter (she's almost 5). This friend cringes whenever I speak of
> my daughter (I can hear the cringing over the phone). So far I've just
> let it slide but the other day this friend went too far.
> (the 5yr old) was sitting in the kitchen with my EX-friend and some other
> adults. She was not doing anything wrong other than babbling (she's quite
> the motor mouth). Anyhow, here are the comments that this EX-friend made:
> "Shut-up!! Just Shut-up!!"(directed to my daughter) "I'd kill her if she
> were mine! I hate that kid! I'd never let her get that way in the first
> kitchen, shot her a dirty look, grabbed my daughter and had her sit with
> me.
Dear Sherri,
I think I would have done what you did. My sil has said some really nasty
things to my kids, though nothing about "hating" or "killing".
For example, while we were at her home for holiday dinner, her three kids
and my two boys were in the basement playing. Her daughter(10y/o)ran to
her, saying my boys were throwing toys around and messing things up. My
sil went BERZERK! and launched into a verbal swearing tantrum at my boys,
saying she would beat their f-ing asses and send them to her own kids
beds because she had busted her ass cleaning the playroom for four hours
yesterday. This was all shouted from the top of the basement stairs.
She didn't go down to see what was happening, nor did she ask her
brother(my husband)or me to check on the kids......and we were right in
the same room with her.
My husband and I went downstairs to settle things, expecting to see the
entire basement playroom trashed, but also wondering how all this
"destruction" could have happened since the only sounds we'd heard coming
from the basement were busy, playful and cooperative sounds.
The basement was in near-perfect shape. Yes! The only toys that were
out were the ones being played with, and they weren't "thrown around". I
stayed in the basement and played with my neice, keeping an eye on the
four boys(my two and sil's two) and making damn sure my sil wouldn't go
nuts again. I didn't say anything to my neice about "tattling" to her
mom or anything.
Later, on the way home, my husband and I mentioned the outburst to our
kids. This isn't the first time my sil has done this sort of thing. Her
family tolerates this stuff from her all the time. But, this was the
last straw for my husband. He's decided not to go to his sister's home
any more. It's sad, but I don't think any amount of talking is going to
change her or make her realize that her temper and tongue-lashing was out
of line, ever.
But, when reading about what the woman said, "I'd kill her if she were
mine!" Made me immediately think that I would have blurted out, "If she
were yours, SHE'D KILL HERSELF!"
BarbarAnn
Mom to: Chris(12y/o)and Doug(9y/o)
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Agogbuay27
>From: ao...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ann Willey)
>Date: 25 Aug 1997 07:55:54 GMT
> If you doubt there are people who hate children, I would be willing
> to back my statements up and e-mail you a copy of the posts from
> my experience, visiting the childfree news group. Maybe you do not
> mind that as a parent they call you breeder, I do mind.
Actually, I searched on your user ID after replying to your post last
night. This is what I found on DejaNews.
You entered the childfree group by posting deliberately inflammatory
material. I believe that in the usenet community, this is called trolling.
Your first posts made ludicrous assumptions and things went downhill from
there.
I also read the childfree group last night. Every last post on my
server.
I don't see an entire group of child haters. I see diverse people who
share
a common desire to not have kids for a variety of reasons. Some don't like
the presence of kids at all (fine by me - I don't think anyone _has_ to
like
children) and most of them loathe being around undisciplined kids,
something
all parents I know hate as well. This group only turns ugly when people
come
in and try to judge these people for feeling this way. I also noted a
cohesive group dynamic among the posters there (sorry, the psychologist in
me
is speaking). It's an unusually close-knit group.
You're right. They used the term "breeder", and clearly define it as
one who is capable of having kids, but is not a good parent. Yes, the
term is offensive, but I believe it was meant to be so. It's very apt and
to the point. We can all "breed" but I think we can all agree that it
takes
a lot more care and effort to be a parent.
I will say that in my humble opinion, having four children is
excessive,
but I also plan to adopt children rather than have any of my own for
personal
reasons. Some posters felt in the childfree group, that because of your
excess, you were a breeder. This may be wrong, but it's certainly their
right to express this opinion in _their_ group. And you definitely did
prolifically procreate.
And I must agree with them that your posts often were difficult to
understand, as key words or grammatical constructs were frequently missing
or in error.
You went in there and berated them. You stereotyped them all as child
haters. You claimed they were afraid of sex and were intolerant. You
refused
to acknowledge that they were families unless they had children. You
implied that they had no right to own decent sized homes. You took a
term that they applied specifically (breeder) and accused them of branding
anyone who had kids with that term. What kind of reaction were you
expecting from them?
I will not say that the childfree people were blameless. They were not
very nice to you. However, you actively brought their anger on yourself
as you started off judging them right out of the gate. Most people will
react aggressively when their belief system is attacked in the manner in
which you attacked theirs. I feel their retaliation was completely
justified.
In closing, I leave you with some of the remarks you made on that
group.
I think most readers here will see why you were unwelcome there. I have
not
crossposted this to that group because they don't seem to want flame wars
any
more than we do, but there are numerous parents there wishing to
understand
childfree people a little better, and they seem to be welcome. If you are
curious, lurk there, but please be aware that these people are tired of
sermons and people telling them how wonderful having kids is and why they
should have them. I think both groups should have a healthy respect for
each
other's opinions, and if you can't support the childfree sentiment, don't
disturb them.
Ann Willey wrote on alt.support.childfree:
:>Some cfc "family" should re evalue the four bedroom they have.
======
:>I get a very interesting picture of those who choose to be childfree!
...
:>There are those who Just are not tolerant of others because of age and
:>weakness (children),
:>There are those who do not wish to share anything of themselves with
young
:>people, either through selfishness or jelousy (and I don't mean genes),
:>There are those who are simply afraid of childbirth and/or sex,
=====
:>So your SO Has a uterus but doesn't use, just as long as you use your
:>spell check.
=====
(Ms. Willey refused to acknowledge that childfree or childless couples
were a
family, even after a dictionary definition was cited, stating otherwise.)
:>the word family implies at least one child unless you are talking about
:>extened family or family of origin.
:>Married people without kids are called couples.
=====
(After childfree-ers explained why they call some people "breeders", she
began accusing them of branding all parents as "breeders".)
:>Mari,Pete or Dan see you in a mall with any child you may adopt they
jump
:>to the conclusion you gave birth and will call you a breeder
:>I merly fail to grasp why people who do want and have kids are called by
:>such words as breeder by some of the people on this ng
:>however I don't think calling those who parent by the term breeders
:>helps your choice of being childfree.
:>This term brings to mind Hitler as his policy to populate the world with
:>only blonde blue eyed people.
=====
(Ms. Willey attempts to attribute the Susan Smith case to a childfree, or
as she put it, "anti child" lifestyle.)
:>Susan Smith murdured her two young son because her boyfriend didn't want
:>kids and the emotional strain that put her under,not because she lost it
:>because of the children or lack of money, he is an example of promoting
an
:>anti child lifestyle.
SRHami
>Kids have their own personalities
That was the only thing that I agreed with. Children come to us in all
sorts of different packages. The world's most perfect parents could not
possibly dictate which child will be a good listener and which will be
hyper. What we CAN do is give positive influence and discipline to all
children. A constant dose of negative influence will corrupt the
self-esteem of any child. For a child who has an intense personality a
negative influence is much more harmfull and could lead to adult violent
behavior. An intense child gives 110% to everything. If that 110% is
directed in a positive manner the outcome can be astounding.
I'm blessed with one hyper child and one laid- back- easy- going child. I
think no more or no less of either. They are who they are and I'm here to
guide them in a positive direction. Having to pick my battles has been a
difficult thing to learn. I don't scold my daughter for simply running her
mouth. If I did I'd be scolding her all day long everyday. I know because
I used to do that. It only made my throat sore. Instead of scolding each
little annoyance I only scold the serious disturbances such as hitting,
saying something/being mean, not using manners, lying, etc....
Bill, I'm not sure if you are a parent but I can only assume that you do
not have a hyper child. Raising a hyper child is a whole different realm
of parenting that can involve embarrasment, hurt feelings, and lots of
symphany for our children. On the whole, most of the hyper children that I
know are smart to the extreme and are also easily bored. When their
boredom is filled with activity lots of interesting and creative things
happen. So the next time you encounter a hyper or misbehaving child why
not give that child some paper and crayons and watch the magic.
Sherri
Mom to Lauryn Angela, almost 5 and Angela Renea, almost 2 (my two "ANGELas")
Poet4610
>I also read the childfree group last night. Every last post on my
>server.
>I don't see an entire group of child haters. I see diverse people who
>share
>a common desire to not have kids for a variety of reasons. Some don't like
>the presence of kids at all (fine by me - I don't think anyone _has_ to
>like
>children) and most of them loathe being around undisciplined kids,
>something
>all parents I know hate as well. This group only turns ugly when people
>come
>in and try to judge these people for feeling this way. I also noted a
>cohesive group dynamic among the posters there (sorry, the psychologist in
>me
>is speaking). It's an unusually close-knit group.
So's the KKK. I lurked there for a while after reading an article about
the group, since I thought the author couldn't possibly be telling the
truth that people there make jokes about SIDs (just an excuse that stressed
out parents use when they smother their kids - a justifiable thing to do,
according to one post).
According to the article and posts that I read myself, folks there are
proud to claim "If I had to choose between my cat and someone esle's kid in
a fire, that kid would be toast!"
While the majority of the crap spewed there is along the lines of claiming
that child-rearing is nothing more than "an expensive hobby", there are
truly scary ones that ask why it isn't legal to shoot misbehaving children
and to assert that the man who killed all those schoolchildren in Scotland
was performing a "public service".
Children are "sprogs" and parents "breeders". While they claim to use that
distinction only to describe "bad parents", their defination of such would
pretty much include anyone raising kids who doesn't require them to be
"seen and not heard." The fact that most of these selfish losers have no
concept of parenting makes it all the more laughable that they consider
themselves able to judge parents.
Are you sure you really read all the posts there? Go back a month or so
and you'll see what I mean.
Robert
Poet4610
>cond...@osu.edu (Colleen Condron) wrote:
>
>>On 29 Aug 1997 21:01:44 GMT, poet...@aol.com (Poet4610) wrote:
>>
>>>So's the KKK. I lurked there for a while after reading an article about
>>>the group, since I thought the author couldn't possibly be telling the
>>>truth that people there make jokes about SIDs (just an excuse that stressed
>>>out parents use when they smother their kids - a justifiable thing to do,
>>>according to one post).
>>>
>>don't ever remember seeing that particular thread.
>
>or this one:
>
>>there are truly scary ones that ask why it isn't legal to shoot misbehaving
>children
>>and to assert that the man who killed all those schoolchildren in Scotland
>>was performing a "public service".
>
>
>
>
Here's the ones I found:
Subject: Re: Parents vs. Breeders
From: pen...@spamblock.vnet.net (Bill)
Date: 14 Jul 1997 23:09:18 GMT
Message-ID: <5qebiu$13m$1...@ralph.vnet.net>
Lady Igraine <spam...@erols.com> writes:
> And all this time I thought babies screamed for hours at a time out of
> sheer vindictiveness....<g>...IMO, the best thing to do about colic is
> to make sure the kid is securely anchored and can't get hurt, then
> *leave the house* before you go crazy from the noise and commit
> murder...or if the weather's bad, get out your old Van Halen, Def
> Leppard, etc. albums and crank them up to the max.
ROTFL....actually, I think SIDS was just invented as a catch-all excuse
for all the thusly-provoked justifiable homicides....is there *any* sound
more hideous than
the relentless crying of a baby? I know if there were one
of those screeching things in my care, I would kill it.
and.....
Subject: Grrr ...
From: cha...@nospam.antipope.org (Charlie Stross)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:13:32 +0100
Message-ID: <slrn5tv83c.np2.charlie@SPAMBLOCKED>
This is ridiculous. Why can't I just shoot the fuckers? Thomas Hamilton
was carrying out a vital public service ...
...ok? I'm also trying to find a copy of the orginal article that called
my attention to this whole thing. The author attempted to post rebuttals to
posts like these but was harassed out of the ng.
Robert
Poet4610
>no, they weren't particularly, but they were obviously intended to be.
>both are clearly off-the-cuff bits of black humor, and hardly the
>serious 'assertions' that you first claimed. and as rebecca points
>out, occasional extreme remarks by two individuals is hardly the same
>thing as a group agenda of wholesale child slaughter (though i'm sure
>ann would like you to think so).
I'm not advocating some of the things that Ann has said and done either.
On the other hand, I guess I'm just a bit too politically correct to
condone or even accept any humor of this kind without an acknowledgement
from the posters that they were truly stupid things to say. I didn't even
attempt to request this based on the way others who have done so were sworn
at and basically harassed there.
I have no problem with a group like ASCF in general, but as a parent I
take offense to someone with no children not acknowledging that they aren't
qualified to say much of anything intelligent about raising children. To
hear someone there call a parent a "breeder" is almost laughable. They
don't know shit from shineola on the subject.
Robert
Livia
Aaron & Rebecca <aco...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Poet4610 wrote:
><previous posts snipped>
>
>> ...ok? I'm also trying to find a copy of the orginal article that called
>> my attention to this whole thing. The author attempted to post rebuttals to
>> posts like these but was harassed out of the ng.
>>
>> Robert
>
>Thank you for posting the articles. My newserver never picked them up
>(thanks again, Prodigy ;-( I don't think it is fair to characterize a
>whole group of people by a couple of posts like that. Even I (childfree
>and proud) don't think they were particularly funny.
no, they weren't particularly, but they were obviously intended to be.
both are clearly off-the-cuff bits of black humor, and hardly the
serious 'assertions' that you first claimed. and as rebecca points
out, occasional extreme remarks by two individuals is hardly the same
thing as a group agenda of wholesale child slaughter (though i'm sure
ann would like you to think so).
i would be very surprised if this group had NEVER seen any examples of
someone taking frustration a bit too far. in fact, i'm fairly sure
that i've seen messages here about killing/castrating pedophiles, etc.
would you then characterize the group as a whole as an advocate of
vigilante 'justice'?
Kent Parks
Poet4610 (poet...@aol.com) wrote:
:
: I have no problem with a group like ASCF in general, but as a parent I
: take offense to someone with no children not acknowledging that they aren't
: qualified to say much of anything intelligent about raising children. To
: hear someone there call a parent a "breeder" is almost laughable. They
: don't know shit from shineola on the subject.
This is not 100% true--many childfree people are teachers, etc., who work
with children and know a darn good deal about raising them. Or, they have
nieces/nephews OR had youngers siblings growing up, whom they raised.
Sometimes these factors are a big part of what MAKES someone wnat to be
childfree. It's pretty darn ARROGANT of you to assume that someone with
know children is "not qualified to say much of anything intelligent about
raising children" when you don't know the circumstances of their
non-childed status. As well, assuming that someone WITH children will
100% of the time "know better" about raising them than someone without is
a crock, too--there are plenty of folks out there with kids who NEVER
should have had them, and a lamppost could tell you that.
The term "breeder" on a.s.c. is SPECIFICALLY used for those with children
who DON'T know how to raise them, not ALL people who have reproduced. We
have several "honorary parents" among us, and THEY use the term "breeder"
in reference to the never-should-have-had-kids types as much or MORE than
the childfree folks do.
And, the "advice" that a.s.c. tends to dole about about childrearing is
generally NOT of the sort like "how to potty train", "how to get them to
go to bed", etc., which of course an actual parent will know better, BUT,
it is more along the lines of "teach the kids that a movie theater is NOT
for the purpose of talking throughout the whole movie or kicking the seat
in front of you", or "a two year old does not belong in a fancy
white-tablecloth restaurant". I think you will agree, whether or not one
has kids is not very relevant in these matters, which are called simple
ETIQUETTE and CONSIDERATION of others.
However, I can tell from your "I have reproduced, therefore I am
a superior being than you" arrogance that nothing I say will convince
you away from your opinion, so there is no need to present any kind of
evidence to you anyway...
Good day
Kent
Sutterkid
On the subject of the childfree being unable to tell parents anything
about parenting:
I've really got to make a comment here. My husband and I are quite happily
chlidfree. He works with inpatient children and adolescents who are
psychiatrically disturbed. The main contributor to psychiatric problems in
children is their parents, believe it or not. Although there are occasional
clients who have problems that are purely, by fluke, physical, the majority
have problems related to:
Drug exposure in utero, sexual abuse (particularly by boyfriends and
stepfathers of the biological mother), physical abuse, and plain old lack
of limit setting. There have been numerous children that come through this
hospital who, once limits are set, become a perfectly manageable child.
When mom and dad (if there is one) refuse to take professional advice (just
fix it, I don't want to make any effort attitude) the child continues to
have problems at home.
Now.....my husband works with these children 5 days a week, 9 hours a day,
sometimes days, sometimes nights, so he deals with a whole variety of
problems. He instructs parents on how to set limits and how to react
appropriately to behaviors. He is darn good at his job. He can take kids
that are completely out of control and have them settled and following
directions within a few days. And, many of the younger children adore him.
Are you telling me, that this man, who is childfree, knows nothing about
children or parenting?
Banty
Kent Parks wrote:
>This is not 100% true--many childfree people are teachers, etc., who work
>with children and know a darn good deal about raising them. Or, they have
>nieces/nephews OR had youngers siblings growing up, whom they raised.
>Sometimes these factors are a big part of what MAKES someone wnat to be
>childfree.
Kent, I completely agree because I know childfree people who are teachers.
They felt that having kids would only take energy and dedication away from
the kids they're teaching, and that they could to a better job and live a
more balanced life if they could dedicate the balance of their lives to
each other. I also know artists who are childless by choice, for similar
reasons.
>
>The term "breeder" on a.s.c. is SPECIFICALLY used for those with children
>who DON'T know how to raise them, not ALL people who have reproduced. We
>have several "honorary parents" among us, and THEY use the term "breeder"
>in reference to the never-should-have-had-kids types as much or MORE than
>the childfree folks do.
Kent, but this is where the rub is. The term "breeder" is clearly
confrontational and inflammatory. And even though I'm basically
sympathetic to the childfree lifestyle, I can't help but wonder by what
criteria a.s.c. folks think that they can delineate ordinary parents (or
whatever ya'll call us) from "breeders". I mean, how many so called
mistakes (and I make some by my definition as all parents do, but I have a
sneaking suspicion I make many many more by a.s.c. definitions) does it
take for me to go from "parent" to "breeder"? And this also smacks of a
desire to limit chidbearing only to those deemed "qualified". You have to
understand that in the 20th century, due to events in mid-century and the
anxiety reflected in such dystopian novels as "Brave New World", this is a
deep, deep fear.
Cheers,
Ba...@aol.com
Banty
Colleen Condron writes:
>Is there some good fairy who
>plonks people on the heads when they become parents and gives them all
>the answer to life, the universe and child rearing? As another poster
>pointed out, lots of us have watched kids, even helped raise younger
>sibs or the children of friends. We do not live in a vacuum. We
>read, we have friends and family. After how many months/years of
>being a parent IS someone "qualified" to say something "intelligent"
>about child rearing?
Well, certainly there's no fairy which told me how to raise my son :-) -
good point there.
I had my son when I was 37. He's my only child. So I was sort of a
temporary CBC for a long time.
One experience I had being a parent that I went from *thinking* I knew how
to handle this or that situation, being the oldest of three and having
baby-sat all through high school, to discovering that I really didn't know
nearly as much as I thought. Experience has a way of doing that, y'know.
>I may not have children, but there are some basics I know that might
>qualify as intellgent. Don't take kids out when they are
>overtired/ill/cranky or hungry...just asking for trouble.
Ah, yes, I *do* remember thinking and saying that! Then, I discovered
that my son gets overtired/ill/cranky and hungry when I'm already out, and
at unexpected times of the day.
> Don't give peanut butter
>to young toddlers...lots of kids w/ peanut allergies.
Huh? Lotsa kids have allergies to milk, but it's not like you *never*
give them milk. You just watch and see if milk is giving them a problem.
(Or shrimp, or whatever.) Colleen - the reason you don't give toddlers
peanut butter is that they can choke on it.
> Benadryl can help them sleep on a plane...check with the doc
>first.
Good grief. I never never considered that *drugging* a kid was the right
thing to do, and I don't now. Whenever you're cranky - do you think people
should expect you to down a coupla Valiums or Prozacs for thier sake??
So, you see, you don't have it all figured out. But that's OK, none of us
parents do, either :-)
But the difference is......we *know* we don't have it all figured out!
Cheers,
Ba...@aol.com
Banty
>Subject: Re: Friend hates my daughter
>Path:
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4.uu.net!199.170.214.67!new
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>From: cat.n...@va.pubnix.com (Cat)
>Newsgroups: misc.kids
>Date: 31 Aug 1997 23:40:20 -0400
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>
>Banty <ba...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Kent, but this is where the rub is. The term "breeder" is clearly
>>confrontational and inflammatory.
>
>breeders. We vent about screaming, disturbing, and ill-mannered
>children who have ruined our days in the CHILDFREE newsgroup!
I've quoted the entire header here to show you've posted this in
misc.kids. Only misc. kids. I never posted on this topic to anything but
misc.kids. AOL doesn't even let me cross-post (why I'm using such an ISP
at present is a whole 'nother story :-)
So what on EARTH are you ranting about to me?
>So what exactly is the problem? This is the place for you to vent
>about people who make your lives difficult as parents. The childfree
>group is a place for us to vent about people who make our lives
>difficult with their kids. (It's also a place for a billion other
>topics of discussion, but those specifics aren't relevant here.)
Excuse me, but you can't say any durned thing you feel like in such a
public forum as a USENET newsgroup and call it your little private place to
vent without any response. Nah-uh. (Besides, again, I never posted over
there.....) You'll have to answer for your terminology wherever you post
in a public forum. If y'all want to say "breeder" in your living rooms
amongst sympathetic friends, go ahead, be my guest. But this teminology
has spread beyond your little circle, and the public forums you seem to
think is your little private place, and folks will speak up about it.
That's a fact of life.
>And yes, many such parents exist. Just ask the childfree person
>who went to a checkout lane and found a "parent" changing their
>child's soiled diapers right there where food is placed. Or the
>childfree person who can't hear a movie they went to see (R-rated
>even) for the screams of the child behind them. Or the childfree
>person trying to eat their meal, being constantly interrupted by
>the ear-splitting screams from the child behind them whose parent
>has not yet taken them out of earshot to calm them down. And I
>KNOW these aren't things that WE are alone in having to contend with.
>What about you? When you leave the child with a sitter and go out
>to dinner and hear high pitched screams, well... aren't you paying
>someone to get away from that kind of thing?
Y'know - I live in the same world you do, and go to at least as many nice
restaurants, etc., as you do. Here and there I find a kid who is out of
control, and I don't like it, and I don't agree with a lot of parents'
childrearing philosophy, but not like you paint it here. Where are you
finding these awful kids in such concentration to be soooo worked up about it?
Also, I leave my son with a babysitter to go HAVE FUN where the
responsiblity of his care would be an impediment. Not to "get away from
that kind of thing" - that's *your* projection. And even if I did, I
wouldn't let some kid's squealing ruin my time for me. Just like I don't
let some stupid driver get me worked up, or a grumpy co-worker, or a rather
shrill newsgroup contributor for that matter.
Cheers,
Ba...@aol.com
Fab4Fan99
>So's the KKK. I lurked there for a while after reading an article about
>the group, since I thought the author couldn't possibly be telling the
>truth that people there make jokes about SIDs (just an excuse that stressed
>out parents use when they smother their kids - a justifiable thing to do,
>according to one post).
>
>proud to claim "If I had to choose between my cat and someone esle's kid in
>a fire, that kid would be toast!"
>
>While the majority of the crap spewed there is along the lines of claiming
>truly scary ones that ask why it isn't legal to shoot misbehaving children
>and to assert that the man who killed all those schoolchildren in Scotland
>was performing a "public service".
>
>distinction only to describe "bad parents", their defination of such would
>pretty much include anyone raising kids who doesn't require them to be
>"seen and not heard." The fact that most of these selfish losers have no
>concept of parenting makes it all the more laughable that they consider
>themselves able to judge parents.
>
>Are you sure you really read all the posts there? Go back a month or so
>and you'll see what I mean.
>
>Robert
I've been hanging out in alt.support.childfree for some time now. I am NOT
childfree, I have a 22-month-old daughter.
It is true that there are some people that just flat-out don't like kids,
but they are a small minority there, from what I can tell (and who ever
said that EVERYONE has to like kids, anyhow?) More to the point, one of the
accepted habits on that newsgroup (since it IS a childfree newsgroup) is
venting about annoying kids. Sometimes the vents get a little over-the-top.
Even though some of the stuff you refer to IS in poor taste, judging an
entire newsgroup by a couple of posts made by a couple of people is rash in
the extreme.
As for the whole "breeder" thing, I have NEVER been called a breeder, not
once, and every single person on the group knows I'm a parent. Of course, I
did not barge in there and try to tell them what's "wrong" with their
lifestyle either, like a certain person did. There IS a difference between
a parent and a breeder, and if you hang out there long enough you figure
out what the difference is right quick. While doing my grocery shopping
yesterday, there were two urchins, about 6 and 4, RUNNING around the store,
screaming, yelling, sliding on their knees (one of the little darlings
almost slid right into my cart) while BOTH parents were there and did
NOTHING. Then we had the boy about my daughters age, SCREAMING at the top
of his lungs, while BOTH parents were there and did NOTHING. Breeders? You
betcha!
As for that old "selfish" canard, it's bunk. Sure, there are people who
chose not to have kids for selfish reasons--actually, "materialistic" might
be a better word. I don't necessarily agree with that, but that's OK--it
takes all types. But, most of the people I know on that newsgroup are
childfree because they made a consious, rational decision that having
children was not for them. I know a pile parents than I can think of that I
wish had made the same decision. But, no, they had kids because it was the
"thing to do" or it was "expected of them" or because they could not figure
out the intricacies of birth control, God help us. Now they are miserable,
the kids are miserable, they are raising havoc in my neighborhood grocery
store through their apathy--and you think CHILDFREE people are "selfish
losers"????? Yeeks.......
Frank
father of Brigid 10/24/95
Beautiful Downtown Beverly, MA KA1WZH
"We have to make sure they have helmets on when they go up there"--Red Sox
manager Jimy Williams, on his pitchers having to bat in National League parks.
"What a gladiatress!"--Dick Button, on Tara Lipinski
Poet4610
>You seemed to get really worked up by what the childfree people said in
>their own newsgroup, did you not?
>
>
Uh, Cat...nobody "owns" a newsgroup - ascf is a public place, just a
restaurant, grocery store etc...you can't segregate any of them.
And I stand by my statement that the vast majority of cbc people are not
qualified to have an intelligent opinion on parenting. Without experience
and the even more important emotional bond, you're on the outside looking
in on something you don't undertsand. That's why your judgemental looks and
words about my "misbehaving" children make me laugh. Get a clue. Be happy
as cbc and stick to that, ok?
Robert
Chris and /or Kevin
Cat wrote:
>
> Poet4610 <poet...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>You seemed to get really worked up by what the childfree people said in
> >>their own newsgroup, did you not?
> >Uh, Cat...nobody "owns" a newsgroup - ascf is a public place, just a
> >restaurant, grocery store etc...you can't segregate any of them.
>
> the group where we discuss these things. We don't spew this stuff in
> here unless you guys start calling us on the carpet for what we say in
> a completely separate group from yours.
>
> >And I stand by my statement that the vast majority of cbc people are not
> >qualified to have an intelligent opinion on parenting. Without experience
> >and the even more important emotional bond, you're on the outside looking
> >in on something you don't undertsand. That's why your judgemental looks and
> >words about my "misbehaving" children make me laugh. Get a clue. Be happy
> >as cbc and stick to that, ok?
>
> people should have an opinion on parenting or not. And laugh all you
> want. I laugh knowing I can just get up and walk away from the screams,
> tantrums, and twenty-plus years of parentsl responsibility.
>
> There, feel better?
If you feel better -- why are you posting in misc.kids? If you are
happy -
terrific. But why do you read misc.kids? If you are not interested in
being a parent -- great -- but why are you arguing with people in this
newsgroup? I missed most of the original arguements but it seems to me
you
just like to argue a point -- and read this newsgroup to do just that.
Now I feel better ;-}
Chris
mom to Kelsey and John
Gary Brainin
In article <19970901023...@ladder02.news.aol.com> ba...@aol.com (Banty) writes:
> Kent Parks wrote:
> >The term "breeder" on a.s.c. is SPECIFICALLY used for those with children
> >who DON'T know how to raise them, not ALL people who have
> >reproduced. [...]
> Kent, but this is where the rub is. The term "breeder" is clearly
> confrontational and inflammatory.
Then it has succeeded in its design. :-)
> And even though I'm basically sympathetic to the childfree
> lifestyle, I can't help but wonder by what criteria a.s.c. folks
> think that they can delineate ordinary parents (or whatever ya'll
> call us) from "breeders".
The term you're looking for is "parents."
And to answer your question . . . well, it depends on the person
using it. And it's open to both interpretation and mistake.
Let me make an analogy: Have you ever been cut off in traffic by
someone swinging across two or three lanes to make a left turn from
the right lane through a red light? Ever told someone about the
experience using terms like "that jerk"? Do you really know how this
person behaves all the time, or are you just extrapolating from the
information you have?
Same concept, here. Using our (imperfect) judgement and
experience, we extrapolate from what we know. Maybe we're wrong in
specific instances, but since we're not in charge of the Ministry of
Reproduction, the worst that can happen is that someone who did at
least one stupid, thoughtless thing will get insulted.
-Gary
--
|Gary Brainin | "...the right to be let alone--the most
|gar...@goonsquad.spies.com | comprehensive of rights and the right most
|Ramblings and PGP public key at: | valued by civilized men." Olmstead v. U.S.
|http://www.spies.com/garygm/ | (Brandeis, J., dissenting)
Banty
>> Kent, but this is where the rub is. The term "breeder" is clearly
>> confrontational and inflammatory.
>
> Then it has succeeded in its design. :-)
Charming ,Gary..
> Let me make an analogy: Have you ever been cut off in traffic by
>someone swinging across two or three lanes to make a left turn from
>the right lane through a red light? Ever told someone about the
>experience using terms like "that jerk"? Do you really know how this
>person behaves all the time, or are you just extrapolating from the
>information you have?
>
>
Gee, I call them "jerks". Not "roadkill" or "subhuman animalistic trash"
or some other term that would be more analogous to "breeders". In other
words, I don't dehumanize them.
> Same concept, here. Using our (imperfect) judgement and
>experience, we extrapolate from what we know.
Not quite the same concept. And not with nearly enough experience.
Speaking about extrapolating from the information we have - one can pick
out parents. They're generally the people with kids with them. And when
they're jerks you could say "breeder" (or I say "what a jerk"). How do I
know that the many many adults who are rude and offensive and just plain
inconsiderate are CBC's? Or parents without their kids, or what?
You see people with kids, already de facto people with responsiblities
for others than themselves, do the job of raising our next generation right
in front of you (well excuuuuuse us!) with all the unexpected difficulties
that entails.
I don't know if the loud people at the next table to me in a cafe or
CBC's, even when one of them pulled out a chair, sat back, and sat right at
my ear, even closer to me than any of his dinner companions.
One time I got off a plane greatly delayed due to weather conditions.
There might be barely enough time to make my next plane if it was delayed
sufficiently by the same weather (turned out it was). As I approached an
agent standing there to help departing passengers, I had to bend down to
take hold of my 3 y/o son's hand, who had just pulled his hand away. At
that moment, a woman travelling alone *pushed* her way past me, ran up to
the agent, and began to monopolize her time by demanding precise and
long-winded directions to her transfer (this is O'Hare - easy to get
around). Was she a CBC? Thought crossed my mind since she was so willing
to take advantage of my having for a brief moment to tend to another
little human being so she could take care of her own little self just
dandy. But I dunno. What *I know* is from what y'all post on USENET and
on AOL.
(BTW, most of which is much differernt from the attitudes expressed by my
CBC friends.)
> Maybe we're wrong in
>specific instances, but since we're not in charge of the Ministry of
>Reproduction, the worst that can happen is that someone who did at
>least one stupid, thoughtless thing will get insulted.
>
> -Gary
>
>
Would you like to see a "Ministry of Reproduction"?? You brought it up.
Cheers,
Ba...@aol.com
Banty
Cat says:
>Because I was responding to this portion of this thread on misc.kids
>where you entered into the debate. I'm trying to explain, in quite
>simple terms (I thought) that childfree people have never come over
>and started labelling you breeders on this newsgroup.
>
>1) You posted complaining about the term "breeders" to misc.kids only.
>2) I responded to your complaint on misc.kids only because that is where
> you made it.
>
>Got it?
The term, like it or not, did get dragged over here. That's what happens
in public discussion.
>
>And I'll call someone a breeder on the childfree group if I feel
>they fit the bill. I will not justify it to you or anyone else.
>If you do not like it, do not read the childfree newsgroup.
>
>How's that for a simple solution? Or would you rather control
>how we feel about parents? I suppose the next step is that we
>all must love and feel a special affinity for children and all
>parents.
>
>Just call me when you're done singing Kumbaya, okay?
>>whew<<, Cat, run along back to your den of wound-up, control-demanding
compatriots. There are some more calm and sane folks for me to discuss
this issue with.
Cheers,
Ba...@aol.com
David Wasser
>In article <19970831151...@ladder01.news.aol.com> poet...@aol.com (Poet4610) writes:
>
>> I have no problem with a group like ASCF in general, but as a parent I
>> take offense to someone with no children not acknowledging that they aren't
>> qualified to say much of anything intelligent about raising children. To
>> hear someone there call a parent a "breeder" is almost laughable. They
>> don't know shit from shineola on the subject.
The opinion stated above is illogical for two reasons:
1. One needn't be a parent to learn about children. One need only observe
children and interact with them to learn about them. I do admit that being a
parent makes it easier to observe them since you won't even have to go out of
the house to observe them. (And you get to see them in their natural habitat.)
2. It is not automatic that folks who have children will learn anything at all
about them. One does need to make the effort.
The fact is that some folks know a lot about kids and some folks don't. And it
isn't directly tied to whether they are parents themselves.
Liza
---
David & Liza Wasser email: DW...@valhalla.rhein-main.de
"Well, Mr. Dallas, we've heard your smut masquerading as songs and we've heard
how teen prostitution, pregnancy, drug use, cults, runaways, suicide and poor
hygiene are sweeping this nation. We thought you might like to share with the
commitee any particular causes you might see for those latter problems."
"I dunno. Maybe the proliferation of narrow, suffocating zealotry masqerading
as parenting in this country."---Berke Breathed, copyright 1987
Banty
>
>>If there's candy by every single durn grocery check out stand
>>(and I betcha we'd both agree on how they should stop that! :-) my son at
>>a certain age will fuss every single time I check out groceries and don't
>>let him have candy, which was every single time. I'm teaching him about
>>not getting his way all the time, yet he was too young not to cry. If the
>>person behind me can't understand that or expects never to hear a child's
>>sound impinge on their ears, I can't *reasonably* be expected to accomodate
>>you as you would require.
>>
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Ba...@aol.com
>
>"Too young not to cry"??? What age is this, exactly? Brigid is 22 months
>old. She has NEVER cried in the supermarket, not once, and I take her
>shopping every single week. No, she is by no means the perfect kid--but she
>knows, even at that age, that crying in a public place is not acceptable.
>At home is a different story :-)
>
>But you are completely missing the point of the people in the childfree
>newsgroup, anyway. It's NOT misbehaving children. I saw a kid acting up in
>a store today--I also saw the parent attempting to take steps to diffuse
>the situation. I've also seen FAR too many kids acting up in the grocery
>store, while the parents are completely oblivious. At least make a blessed
>ATTEMPT at getting the child to stop howling--don't just STAND there.
>That's what drives me nuts--and I think most of my childfree friends would
>agree with that.
>
>This thing about "She's only such-and-such age, she's gonna cry" is a
>cop-out.
>
>Frank
Then we disagree in philosophy, Frank. I think it's a heck of a lot more
important to teach a child he or she can't get his or her way, than to
teach them emotional restraint at the age of 2 or 3. And I personally
would disagree very strongly that it's appropriate to teach a child as
young as 22 months not to cry. You can't even begin to teach a child how
to deal with his or her emotions (later, starting at about 3 - 4) if you've
already taught them as *infants* to limit expressing emotion. So, you
see, we just plain disagree - you with mine and mine with yours - it's not
necessarily a lack of effort at parenting.
You think it's a cop-out, I think there are things more important than
someone wanting peace and calm in every public place they go to.
Same thing with the person who suggested Benadryl (or said somebody's ped
said it was OK) to get kids to sleep on airplanes. I object to drugging
someone or anyone drugging himself in order for him to cope, and I'm not
going to do it to my own kid for people who think they bought an
entertainment-escape package with their airplane ticket. I teach him
restraint in other ways - more and more as he gets older. When he was a
baby, having him tired and hungry when boarding worked very well for him
sleeping through the ascent and descent (nursing on the former, sleeping on
the latter as well as through most of the flight). But that wasn't easy on
me or the patrons at the departing airport before the flight. Well, sorry.
But reach for a DRUG - no way Jose.
Look, I *don't* think little kids belong at weddings, I *do* take the boy
out of earshot when I can, I *do* teach him manners at diners before I ever
take him to a fancy place.
But what you're talking about and what I've seen elsewhere is the old
"children should be seen and not heard" philosophy. Well, high-strung
folks who don't like kids might prefer that philosophy, and parents like
you might prefer that philosophy, but I want to teach my son to respect
others by first having some respect for him and where he is in the path of
develoment. And, at almost 5, it's working beautifully IMO.
Cheers,
Ba...@aol.com
ChrisLerch
I'd just like to comment that everything Robert says is true about his
brief visit to ascf. I popped in there after hearing about the group in
various places, including a web page listing the 'wierdest places on the
web". I can concur on that.
While the cf folks who post on misc.kids have been MUCH more polite than
they are on ascf, you can still see subtle signs in Gary and Cat's posts of
what it's like there for any parent who DARES to offer information that
flies in the face of the ignorant blatherings that go on there concerning
parenting.
My hate-mail barrage started when I offered information to counter a WHINE
about having to stop "at every driveway" for a school buses. I posted
information about how different age children a required to walk a distance
to their bus stop or to school commensurate with their age. Only a
Kindergartener, for example, is picked up at or very close to his/her home.
Of course, I was lambasted and told that I didn't know what I was talking
about...which eventually turned into a rant about why people have to stop
at ALL for buses that carry "breeder's sprogs", of which there are too many
in the first place, etc etc.
When I offered the opinion that children are more important than pets,
things really got ugly. Then came the personal attacks.."fuck you, breeder
asshole, get out of our newsgroup", etc etc.
I stand by the statement that most of the folks in ascf are not qualified
to offer an opinion of a good parent or bad parent, and should respect the
opinions of real parents on the subject. There are bad parents (not
"breeders", though) but Gary and Cat and Kent can't tell the difference.
Chris
http://members.aol.com/chrislerch/main.html
naomi pardue
Colleen Condron (cond...@osu.edu) wrote:
> On 1 Sep 1997 02:49:16 GMT, ba...@aol.com (Banty) wrote:
>
> >Colleen Condron writes:
> >> Don't give peanut butter
> >>to young toddlers...lots of kids w/ peanut allergies.
> >
> >Huh? Lotsa kids have allergies to milk, but it's not like you *never*
> >give them milk. You just watch and see if milk is giving them a problem.
> >(Or shrimp, or whatever.) Colleen - the reason you don't give toddlers
> >peanut butter is that they can choke on it.
> >
> Not according to what my friend's ped told her...I'm not making this
> stuff up out of whole cloth.
No PB for toddlers is a pretty new recommendation. Some doctors may not
be familiar with it, and those of us whose kids were toddlers more than
1-2 years ago may not be familiar with it. (PB CAN, in rare cases, cause
very severe allergies.)
>
> >> Benadryl can help them sleep on a plane...check with the doc
> >>first.
> >
> >Good grief. I never never considered that *drugging* a kid was the right
> >thing to do, and I don't now. Whenever you're cranky - do you think people
> >should expect you to down a coupla Valiums or Prozacs for thier sake??
> >
I wouldn't routinely drug a child on a plane. But if baby is routinely
spending the whole flight screaming, it seems reasonable that a VERY mild
sedative might make EVERYONE happier. (After all, if you are so cranky on
the plane that you are assaulting the flight attendents and storming up
and down the aisle, some valium might be advisible.)
Naomi
Livia
chris...@aol.com (ChrisLerch) wrote:
much like ann, if showing a somewhat better grasp of the english
language, chris came in and proceeded to lecture us on how wrong we
were. for obvious reasons, he is now trying to characterize it as
mere 'offering opinions'.
any name-calling that went on was originated BY chris, whose
definition of an idiot is anyone who doesn't immediately agree with
him, and who sees his own opinions as moral absolutes. he also scores
several degrees up the banty-meter, where parents are granted some
blinding revelation, and rest of us must treat them as minor demigods.
any non-parent who gives a parent so much as a critical glance
deserves to be run over with a stroller.
so how's that book coming along, chris?
Banty
> he also scores
>several degrees up the banty-meter, where parents are granted some
>blinding revelation, and rest of us must treat them as minor demigods.
>any non-parent who gives a parent so much as a critical glance
>deserves to be run over with a stroller.
Wow. I post about how parents don't know it all, and are basically
learning as we go (but most of use know it), and suddenly there's a meter
bearing my moniker about parents are granted a blinding revelation. My
point, I guess you missed it, is that the most important thing experience
teaches one is what one *doesn't* know.
Nice to be famous, though :-)
(Being infamous in certain quarters counts as famous)
I gotta admit some of the colorful rants about being run over with
strollers and singing kumbabaya, etc., are pretty funny and do show some
originality.
Cheers,
Ba...@aol.com
EEISENST
On 2 Sep 1997, naomi pardue wrote:
>
> Colleen Condron (cond...@osu.edu) wrote:
> > On 1 Sep 1997 02:49:16 GMT, ba...@aol.com (Banty) wrote:
> >
> > >Colleen Condron writes:
> > >> Don't give peanut butter
> > >>to young toddlers...lots of kids w/ peanut allergies.
> > >
> > >Huh? Lotsa kids have allergies to milk, but it's not like you *never*
> > >give them milk. You just watch and see if milk is giving them a problem.
> > >(Or shrimp, or whatever.) Colleen - the reason you don't give toddlers
> > >peanut butter is that they can choke on it.
> > >
> > Not according to what my friend's ped told her...I'm not making this
> > stuff up out of whole cloth.
>
>
> No PB for toddlers is a pretty new recommendation. Some doctors may not
> be familiar with it, and those of us whose kids were toddlers more than
> 1-2 years ago may not be familiar with it. (PB CAN, in rare cases, cause
> very severe allergies.)
Peanut allergy is sometimes lethal. It is a sort of "heads up" to others.
Watch your kids and watch what you give other kids (i.e. always ask the
parent if it's ok).
>
> >
> > >> Benadryl can help them sleep on a plane...check with the doc
> > >>first.
> > >
> > >Good grief. I never never considered that *drugging* a kid was the right
> > >thing to do, and I don't now. Whenever you're cranky - do you think people
> > >should expect you to down a coupla Valiums or Prozacs for thier sake??
> > >
> I wouldn't routinely drug a child on a plane. But if baby is routinely
> spending the whole flight screaming, it seems reasonable that a VERY mild
> sedative might make EVERYONE happier. (After all, if you are so cranky on
> the plane that you are assaulting the flight attendents and storming up
> and down the aisle, some valium might be advisible.)
And ask yourself why that baby is screaming. My middle son suffers
terribly on a plane unless he has either Benadryl or another cold and
sinus type medication. Just having him turn to me in absolute tears
because his whole face was hurting was enough for me. He could verbalize
his complaint, infants cannot. Just something to consider.
Gary Brainin
In article <19970902175...@ladder01.news.aol.com> ba...@aol.com (Banty) writes:
> > I do respect the opinions of real parents. Your [ChrisLerch's]
> > opinions, on the other hand . . . .
> An example of circularity (partly implied but complete if taken in context):
Um, nice try but . . . NO.
> * A "real parent" is one who agrees with Gary in childrearing
> philosophies/practices.
Wrong. What, exactly, do you infer this from? Just the fact that
I implied that CL isn't one? I have quite a bit of experience of him
(part of the "context" you conveniently deleted), and make that
assertion based on that knowledge of that specific individual.
Actually, strictly speaking, I didn't state anything about CL's
parenting status, just that I don't respect his opinions. Which I
don't, for the good and sufficient reason that he doesn't respect
mine.
> * A "non-parent" or "breeder" is one who diagrees with Gary in
> childrearing philosophies/practices.
Wrong again. In fact, I have never called anyone "breeder,"
anywhere. All I've ever done is explain how the term is used by
others.
> * Gary respect the opinions of those he agrees with.
Wrong yet again. I neither respect the opinions of only those
people I agree with, nor of all those people I agree with. (Though I
am human, and will therefore tend to give the latter group a bit more
benefit of the doubt.) Prove otherwise, or stop lying about me.
> Ergo, Gary does respect the opinions of real parents.
> Amazing how that works, isn't it.
As you've said yourself:
If you can't quote here where I said [...] that, *YOU'RE way out of
line*.
BTW, false witness is hurtful, and that's what you just did here.
Hypocrite.
Gary Brainin
In article <19970902131...@ladder01.news.aol.com> chris...@aol.com (ChrisLerch) writes:
Chris, Chris, Chris . . . I thought you had left usenet to go
plagiarize^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hwrite a book. How lovely to see you again.
For the benefit of those who don't feel like checking dejanews, Chris
spent his free time a few months back trolling ascf and complaining
about his mistreatment.
> While the cf folks who post on misc.kids have been MUCH more polite than
> they are on ascf, you can still see subtle signs in Gary and Cat's posts of
> what it's like there for any parent who DARES to offer information that
> flies in the face of the ignorant blatherings that go on there concerning
> parenting.
Since you singled me out, would you care to point out exactly what
I've done in this newsgroup which even hints at the sort of irrational
behaviour you claim occurs?
> I stand by the statement that most of the folks in ascf are not qualified
> to offer an opinion of a good parent or bad parent, and should respect the
> opinions of real parents on the subject. There are bad parents (not
> "breeders", though) but Gary and Cat and Kent can't tell the difference.
On what basis do you contend that I can't tell a good parent from a
bad one?
I do respect the opinions of real parents. Your opinions, on the
other hand . . . .
-Gary
Banty
>Gary Brainin
>On what basis do you contend that I can't tell a good parent from a
>bad one?
>
> I do respect the opinions of real parents. Your opinions, on the
>other hand . . . .
An example of circularity (partly implied but complete if taken in context):
* A "real parent" is one who agrees with Gary in childrearing
philosophies/practices.
* A "non-parent" or "breeder" is one who diagrees with Gary in
childrearing philosophies/practices.
* Gary respect the opinions of those he agrees with.
Ergo, Gary does respect the opinions of real parents.
Amazing how that works, isn't it.
Cheers,
Ba...@aol.com
Cathleen
In article <5uhprn$3mv$2...@fddinewz.oit.unc.edu>, jil...@email.unc.edu
(Jill Moore) wrote:
--Colleen Condron (cond...@osu.edu) wrote:
--
--: But there is no reason, save an
--: ill child, that an entire flight should be the screaming baby express.
--
--Heh-heh. This reminds me of my all-time worst parenting-in-public
--nightmare. Overnight flight to London. Bedtime arrives, we read books,
--Helen falls asleep without a sound. Victory! Or so we think . . .
--
--Two hours into the flight Helen's going into a lighter sleep phase (I can
--tell because she's moving a little, adjusting her blanket, etc.) and
--there's an announcement over the PA that wakes her up. She's half-asleep
--and confused as hell about why she isn't home in bed so she starts to cry.
--I talk to her in a soothing voice, tell her it's sleeping time, we're
--sleeping on the plane tonight, mommy and daddy are sleeping, etc. Then
--daddy and I start to role-model sleeping for her. *We know our daughter
--and this is what works for her -- we've done it before.* She *stops*
--crying but starts lulling herself to sleep in her own peculiarly vocal
--way: calling "ay-ay-ay-ay-ay" in a fairly loud voice. *I know my
--daughter so I know she's putting herself to sleep and will stop the
--ay-ay-ay business in five minutes or so if we all continue to act asleep
--and ignore her.* But other passengers start to get annoyed with my
--husband and me for not "doing" anything to stop the child from making
--noise. *In case I haven't made it clear by now, we ARE doing
--something--the thing that we know from experience works.* Unfortunately,
--it doesn't look to other people like we're doing anything. So the flight
--attendant comes up and addresses Helen -- that's right, not the adults,
--but the baby directly -- and says something like, "Oh you poor little
--thing, would you like a sticker." Helen freaks out. It's not time for
--playing with stickers, it's time for sleep, and she knows it. So she
--starts to cry and yell, "crib! crib!" Woman in front of me turns around
--and says, "Can't you do something for that baby?" So, against my better
--judgment, I pick Helen up. Now she freaks out even worse. She doesn't
--like being held when she wants to sleep, she wants to be put down and left
--alone (unusual, perhaps, but that's the way she is). So I "did" something
---- i.e., held her, rocked her, sang songs, etc., for about 45 minutes and
--she cried at the top of her lungs the whole time. Finally, my spine
--returned, and I said, "the hell with all these people who don't know what
--my child needs, I'm putting her back in her seat and telling her it's
--sleeping time and pretending to go to sleep myself." So I did. The
--crying wound down immediately and ceased altogether within 10 minutes.
--
--So that's why my child cried for over an hour on the plane -- because
--other people thought I wasn't "doing" anything and thought they knew what
--she needed better than I did. I could not have prevented the initial
--outburst of tears (about 2 minutes worth) or the 5-10 minutes of ay-ay-ay,
--but I could have prevented an hour's worth of screaming fit if other
--people hadn't interfered (and, admittedly, if I'd had the spine to stand
--up to those folks and do what I knew she needed, even if it did make other
--people glare at me).
--
--I'm sure there were many people on that flight who thought I was a bad
--parent. Oh well, what can you do.
--
--Jill (mom to Helen, 1/25/96)
I think it won't be long before "family flights" and "childfree flights"
are offered by airlines. The parents will feel better knowing their
children's behavior will not inconvenience other parents traveling with
children and those who choose not to be exposed to children crying
(childfree or not) will have that choice.
Chrissy
ChrisLerch wrote
> There's a good example right there, Gary. Ignorant. You're not qualified
> to judge my parenting skills any more than I'm qualified to judge Monet's
> painting skills.
Qualified or not, people judge. It's our nature. You are qualified,
based on your likes, dislikes, and past experience, etc. to judge
Monet's painting. Things hit us at the core as appealling, disgusting,
right or wrong.
But just because you judge something, doesn't mean that your opinion
has to become LAW for everyone. You don't like Monet (let's say), but
that doesn't mean you get to tear his stuff out of museums.
I believe a childfree person can certainly judge and comment on
parenting skills. They will, because it is the nature of people, not
specifically childfree people. Often, people removed from a situation
see things in ways that those entrenched do not.
Yes, we learn by doing, as well. But there is something to be said for
biology. Deep down, at our root, we are instinctive creatures.
Childfree or a Parent. We know how to take care of young. Some do it
better than others.
I judge parents on a number of issues. Ones who don't follow through
with their threats. Ones who let their kid's baby teeth rot out of
their mouths because they've been fed twinkies and soda and never go
to the dentist. Ones who call their five year old daughters "fucking
bitches." I see this day in and day out in my neighborhood. It makes
me sick.
I am childfree. I enjoy that. But I know a good parent when I see one.
I also know a bad one. I am qualified to judge. We all are.
Chrissy
Sally Russell
Although I am new to this ng I don't see how all this bickering and crap
is helping anyone. I am only interested in the origional post as it has
some relivance to me. I would really love to know how "Friend hates my
daughter" is getting on as surely it has been quite some time now.
Sally
Roy
Sally Russell <voo...@xtra.co.nzNOSPAM> wrote:
Forgive us. We are all reliving our childhood.
I think she blew off her friend. Not such a big loss, eh?
Roy mccan...@uthscsa.dcci.com
PC Crash Test Dummy
Roy
cat.n...@va.pubnix.com (Cat) wrote:
>.........
>Then some parents here started judging the childfree group, a group
>that is very near and dear to my heart, and the people on it (most
>of whom I respect greatly) here. I felt the need to respond to
>them and to try to explain some of the things we feel on that group.
>........
Some time ago, when I was new to NGs, I got caught up in crossposts
between childfree and some other groups without quite realizing what
was going on. Like you, I hung around a while. I must say you have
definitely got a "party" group over there. Do you guys serve martinis
or what?
Donna/Michael Metler
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David Wasser wrote:
>
> >In article <19970831151...@ladder01.news.aol.com> poet...@aol.com (Poet4610) writes:
> >
> >> I have no problem with a group like ASCF in general, but as a parent I
> >> take offense to someone with no children not acknowledging that they aren't
> >> qualified to say much of anything intelligent about raising children. To
> >> hear someone there call a parent a "breeder" is almost laughable. They
> >> don't know shit from shineola on the subject.
>
> The opinion stated above is illogical for two reasons:
>
> 1. One needn't be a parent to learn about children. One need only observe
> children and interact with them to learn about them. I do admit that being a
> parent makes it easier to observe them since you won't even have to go out of
> the house to observe them. (And you get to see them in their natural habitat.)
>
> 2. It is not automatic that folks who have children will learn anything at all
> about them. One does need to make the effort.
>
> The fact is that some folks know a lot about kids and some folks don't. And it
> isn't directly tied to whether they are parents themselves.
>
Context also makes a difference. I've been working with children, both
preschoolers and school age for several years (I teach pre-K-6th grade
music currently), and I find that it is much easier to deal with
improper, but normal behavior when they are MY kids (students). Another
single teacher friend of mine commented that when she worked in retail
sales she absolutely hated children and couldn't understand why parents
didn't do something about them. Now that she teaches second grade, she
has a lot more sympathy for parents.
D2M
> Liza
> ---
> David & Liza Wasser email: DW...@valhalla.rhein-main.de
>
> "Well, Mr. Dallas, we've heard your smut masquerading as songs and we've heard
> how teen prostitution, pregnancy, drug use, cults, runaways, suicide and poor
> hygiene are sweeping this nation. We thought you might like to share with the
> commitee any particular causes you might see for those latter problems."
> "I dunno. Maybe the proliferation of narrow, suffocating zealotry masqerading
> as parenting in this country."---Berke Breathed, copyright 1987
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Donna DeVore Metler
Musician and teacher, recently relocated to Memphis TN
All Children Deserve a Special Education
dmme...@bellsouth.net (formerly dmet...@math.ttu.edu)
http://www.math.ttu.edu/~dmettler/
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