Is there anybody still out there? Desperately seeking help....
cjra
any one still out there, I'd love some advice! You all have been so
helpful in the past.
My 3.5 yr old is a "Spirited Child." Definitely. However, her
spiritedness has 99% of the time been of a happy sort. Her default
demeanor was positive, happy. She's just a little hurricane of
activity. She'd been far from perfect and had tested her limits often,
but nothing we couldn't handle with some effort and patience.
That all changed about a month ago. It was rather sudden one day which
makes me worried. It started off with weepiness. She wasn't throwing
tantrums, but just started to cry about everything - very much not
like her. In the past if she cried, it was because she was really
hurt. Then it progressed to major tantrums. We'd had tantrums in the
past, but nothing like this - very aggressive with me and DH, hitting,
pulling, kicking, screaming, totally in hysterics.
I'd lean towards it being a phase, it's just that it was rather
sudden. Her behaviour mirrors that of a friend's kid, whom she spends
a lot of time with. And at first I thought she was just imitating her,
but this has gone on too long for that, and she hasn't spent as much
time with her since this started.
Now, there IS a new baby in the house as of 2 weeks ago, but this
behaviour started a few weeks before that. She's otherwise thrilled
with her baby brother, loves him to pieces and always wants to be with
him. She's had another major change with her daycare closing - she
was at an in home daycare for the past 2.5 years and loved "Nana." As
of last week Nana retired....but then DD has talked for the past few
weeks about starting school, so hasn't seemed too disappointed about
not seeing Nana anymore. And again, this behaviour started weeks
before she even knew about Nana retiring. I do think Nana was a bit
stressed and scolded her a bit more in the final weeks (DD is still
having potty training issues, but was doing well). And DH has been
super stressed for the past month or two about work. And of course new
baby stress (baby is not gaining well and not latching so I'm nursing
every 2 hour for 30 minutes).
I'm trying to spend as much time with her as possible - fortunately
this baby sleeps (unlike her), so I spend all that time he's asleep
focusing on her. But this behaviour is just constant. No more my
laughing singing dancing child, in her place is a mean, unhappy,
aggressive, screaming child. I feel so bad *for* her as well as for
us, because this is so difficult.
I'm at a total loss about what to do.
Any suggestions?
Betsy
> That all changed about a month ago. It was rather sudden one day which
> makes me worried. It started off with weepiness. She wasn't throwing
> tantrums, but just started to cry about everything - very much not
> like her. In the past if she cried, it was because she was really
> hurt. Then it progressed to major tantrums. We'd had tantrums in the
> past, but nothing like this - very aggressive with me and DH, hitting,
> pulling, kicking, screaming, totally in hysterics.
>
> I'd lean towards it being a phase, it's just that it was rather
> sudden. Her behaviour mirrors that of a friend's kid, whom she spends
> a lot of time with. And at first I thought she was just imitating her,
> but this has gone on too long for that, and she hasn't spent as much
> time with her since this started.
>
Even if the behavior started because she was imitating her friend, it
may have become a habit. She may no longer remember that there are
other ways she could be behaving. It might help to suggest other
actions she could take when confronted with an upsetting situation.
> Now, there IS a new baby in the house as of 2 weeks ago, but this
> behaviour started a few weeks before that.
The stress of knowing the baby would be coming soon could have resulted
in behavior changes.
> I'm trying to spend as much time with her as possible - fortunately
> this baby sleeps (unlike her), so I spend all that time he's asleep
> focusing on her. But this behaviour is just constant. No more my
> laughing singing dancing child, in her place is a mean, unhappy,
> aggressive, screaming child. I feel so bad *for* her as well as for
> us, because this is so difficult.
>
With my own spirited child, I have noticed that if I spend too much time
with her, just doing what she wants, it leads to terrible behavior.
Maybe she needs the security of having a more structured situation and
less choices.
Is she between daycares right now because you are home with the baby?
Especially with a new baby, her days may be much less structured than
she is used to.
> I'm at a total loss about what to do.
>
Adding a second child when your first is a spirited child can be very
challenging. Having our 3rd and 4th was much easier than having our second.
--Betsy
cjra
> Even if the behavior started because she was imitating her friend, it
> may have become a habit. She may no longer remember that there are
> other ways she could be behaving. It might help to suggest other
> actions she could take when confronted with an upsetting situation.
Ok, I need to think about what to suggest....I've talked to her about
the behaviour, but it's usually during it, which doesn't help.
She's also incredibly defiant now. If we say to not do something, she
does it 10x over....
>
> > Now, there IS a new baby in the house as of 2 weeks ago, but this
> > behaviour started a few weeks before that.
>
> The stress of knowing the baby would be coming soon could have resulted
> in behavior changes.
>
Probably. We talked a lot about it, and she was very excited, and
participated in my midwife appointments and she was there for the
birth and very into it all.
> > I'm trying to spend as much time with her as possible - fortunately
> > this baby sleeps (unlike her), so I spend all that time he's asleep
> > focusing on her. But this behaviour is just constant. No more my
> > laughing singing dancing child, in her place is a mean, unhappy,
> > aggressive, screaming child. I feel so bad *for* her as well as for
> > us, because this is so difficult.
>
> With my own spirited child, I have noticed that if I spend too much time
> with her, just doing what she wants, it leads to terrible behavior.
>
> Maybe she needs the security of having a more structured situation and
> less choices.
>
> Is she between daycares right now because you are home with the baby?
> Especially with a new baby, her days may be much less structured than
> she is used to.
>
She is between daycares. We're going to start her part time in the new
one after the new year.
> > I'm at a total loss about what to do.
>
> Adding a second child when your first is a spirited child can be very
> challenging. Having our 3rd and 4th was much easier than having our second.
>
> --Betsy
Thanks for the input.
Betsy
> On Dec 23, 10:23 pm, Betsy <be...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
> She's also incredibly defiant now. If we say to not do something, she
> does it 10x over....
>
Handling a defiant older sibling can be extremely difficult when you
have a new baby. Often you are not in a position to do what you need to
do to provide structure and discipline for the older one.
If you are not in a position to be able to keep her from doing whatever
it is, it may be better to avoid telling her not to. If you tell her
not to do something and she gets away with it, it reinforces the defiance.
We have a rule at our house "don't suggest bad things" which means that
we avoid mentioning a bad thing we are worried a child will do. Instead
we try to use redirection and positive suggestions for good activities
before the bad thing has a chance to happen.
>>
>> Is she between daycares right now because you are home with the baby?
>> Especially with a new baby, her days may be much less structured than
>> she is used to.
>>
>
> She is between daycares. We're going to start her part time in the new
> one after the new year.
>
Given the upheaval in her life and probable lack of structure caused by
a new baby, her behavior doesn't seem surprising.
One thing that helped my oldest was to make her a calendar. It had 7
columns for the days of the week. I planned a schedule of daily
activities that repeated weakly and drew pictures for each activity. We
talked about the pictures and I made up or used songs to go with some of
them.
She loved to look at the calendar frequently and know what would be
coming up. It added much needed structure and predictability to her
life and I think it was a large factor in improving her behavior.
With any child, but especially with a spirited child, consistency is
extremely important. Never threaten a consequence that you aren't able
to enforce or won't go through with. It is very important for both
parents to be on the same page on this.
I hope the birth went well. I'm remembering your previous birth story,
though it doesn't seem that long ago.
--Betsy
Rosalie B.
>That all changed about a month ago. It was rather sudden one day which
>makes me worried. It started off with weepiness. She wasn't throwing
>tantrums, but just started to cry about everything - very much not
>like her. In the past if she cried, it was because she was really
>hurt. Then it progressed to major tantrums. We'd had tantrums in the
>past, but nothing like this - very aggressive with me and DH, hitting,
>pulling, kicking, screaming, totally in hysterics.
I had my own spirited child, but she was the second one, and the next
baby was 5 years younger. I do agree that you should pick your
battles, redirect and ignore the bad behavior. It may take some time
to get over this lump.
I'd only offer two pieces of advice. First make sure it isn't
something physical that is the cause.
Second, talk to her sometimes. Tell her the story of her birth. When
mine were pre-verbal but were upset I would tell them the story of
them. Doesn't have to be elaborate.
cjra
> cjra wrote:
> > On Dec 23, 10:23 pm, Betsy <be...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
> > She's also incredibly defiant now. If we say to not do something, she
> > does it 10x over....
>
> Handling a defiant older sibling can be extremely difficult when you
> have a new baby. Often you are not in a position to do what you need to
> do to provide structure and discipline for the older one.
>
> If you are not in a position to be able to keep her from doing whatever
> it is, it may be better to avoid telling her not to. If you tell her
> not to do something and she gets away with it, it reinforces the defiance.
>
> We have a rule at our house "don't suggest bad things" which means that
> we avoid mentioning a bad thing we are worried a child will do. Instead
> we try to use redirection and positive suggestions for good activities
> before the bad thing has a chance to happen.
I'm working on that. But she'll do things like jump on me, "snap" a
blanket at me....potentially dangerous stuff that I need to stop and I
haven't been able to come up with quick re-direction. I'm trying to
convince DH to use re-direction more on other things (since he tends
to focus on the 'stop doing that" for stuff I'd consider easier to re-
direct).
>
>
>
> >> Is she between daycares right now because you are home with the baby?
> >> Especially with a new baby, her days may be much less structured than
> >> she is used to.
>
> > She is between daycares. We're going to start her part time in the new
> > one after the new year.
>
> Given the upheaval in her life and probable lack of structure caused by
> a new baby, her behavior doesn't seem surprising.
>
> One thing that helped my oldest was to make her a calendar. It had 7
> columns for the days of the week. I planned a schedule of daily
> activities that repeated weakly and drew pictures for each activity. We
> talked about the pictures and I made up or used songs to go with some of
> them.
>
> She loved to look at the calendar frequently and know what would be
> coming up. It added much needed structure and predictability to her
> life and I think it was a large factor in improving her behavior.
>
> With any child, but especially with a spirited child, consistency is
> extremely important. Never threaten a consequence that you aren't able
> to enforce or won't go through with. It is very important for both
> parents to be on the same page on this.
>
Good idea, thanks. I'll have to come up with some plan for activities.
Our days really are unstructured (there haven't been many so far, just
last week really), I'm just so focused on trying to get him nursing
and gaining weight....I try to include her by reading to her when I'm
nursing, but that's only worked once.
> I hope the birth went well. I'm remembering your previous birth story,
> though it doesn't seem that long ago.
Thanks. It went great. DD's birth was so traumatic, this was so
peaceful! Still painful, but much nicer. I'll go ahead and post the
birth story.
Cherise
cjra
> cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >That all changed about a month ago. It was rather sudden one day which
> >makes me worried. It started off with weepiness. She wasn't throwing
> >tantrums, but just started to cry about everything - very much not
> >like her. In the past if she cried, it was because she was really
> >hurt. Then it progressed to major tantrums. We'd had tantrums in the
> >past, but nothing like this - very aggressive with me and DH, hitting,
> >pulling, kicking, screaming, totally in hysterics.
>
> I had my own spirited child, but she was the second one, and the next
> baby was 5 years younger. I do agree that you should pick your
> battles, redirect and ignore the bad behavior. It may take some time
> to get over this lump.
>
> I'd only offer two pieces of advice. First make sure it isn't
> something physical that is the cause.
She was a bit sick and had a yeast infection for awhile, but that
seems to have resolved. I do think it's related to all the upheavals
of late.
>
> Second, talk to her sometimes. Tell her the story of her birth. When
> mine were pre-verbal but were upset I would tell them the story of
> them. Doesn't have to be elaborate.
She doesn't *like* her birth story.....I've tried to show her baby
pictures of herself, and she insists that's not her, it's another
baby. However, her birth was very traumatic (severe meconium
aspiration, in NICU not expected to survive....) I don't tell her that
stuff, but she has seen the pictures. She has empathy for the baby in
the pictures - she'll comment "oh, poor baby, she's sick." but will
insist it's not her. Even when I show her other pictures of her after
NICU, she denies any association with them until about 1 yr old, then
she recognizes herself. I've also tried telling her a pretty version
of her birth story, but she doesn't buy that, apparently.
Rosalie B.
>On Dec 25, 9:02锟絘m, Rosalie B. <gmbeas...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >That all changed about a month ago. It was rather sudden one day which
>> >makes me worried. It started off with weepiness. She wasn't throwing
>> >tantrums, but just started to cry about everything - very much not
>> >like her. In the past if she cried, it was because she was really
>> >hurt. Then it progressed to major tantrums. We'd had tantrums in the
>> >past, but nothing like this - very aggressive with me and DH, hitting,
>> >pulling, kicking, screaming, totally in hysterics.
>>
>> I had my own spirited child, but she was the second one, and the next
>> baby was 5 years younger. 锟絀 do agree that you should pick your
>> battles, redirect and ignore the bad behavior. 锟絀t may take some time
>> to get over this lump.
>>
>> I'd only offer two pieces of advice. 锟紽irst make sure it isn't
>> something physical that is the cause.
>
>She was a bit sick and had a yeast infection for awhile, but that
>seems to have resolved. I do think it's related to all the upheavals
>of late.
>
It may take longer to get all the way over it - not sick enough to be
really noticeably sick, but not really well either.
>>
>> Second, talk to her sometimes. 锟絋ell her the story of her birth. When
>> mine were pre-verbal but were upset I would tell them the story of
>> them. 锟紻oesn't have to be elaborate.
>
>She doesn't *like* her birth story.....I've tried to show her baby
>pictures of herself, and she insists that's not her, it's another
>baby. However, her birth was very traumatic (severe meconium
>aspiration, in NICU not expected to survive....) I don't tell her that
>stuff, but she has seen the pictures. She has empathy for the baby in
>the pictures - she'll comment "oh, poor baby, she's sick." but will
>insist it's not her. Even when I show her other pictures of her after
>NICU, she denies any association with them until about 1 yr old, then
>she recognizes herself. I've also tried telling her a pretty version
>of her birth story, but she doesn't buy that, apparently.
I didn't mean to show her pictures!!! She probably does know that it
was a traumatic time for you, and she may be afraid that since the
second one was easier that you will love the baby more and love her
less because she was more trouble for you. It isn't the kind of thing
that she will be able to articulate. I know my son felt that he
wasn't wanted because he overheard us say that he wasn't planned. I
never knew that until he was in his 30s.
Welches
"cjra" <cjro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d427e2ee-b6d9-48e4...@g26g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
but she will have known baby was coming. #2 never used her buggy until I was
about 7 months with #3 when she anounced "that baby isn't using my buggy".
She'd seemed really excited about the new baby, and I think that was the
only negative expressed to me, but she hated going in the buggy, so it
completely took me by surprise.
If baby's crying and you're doing something with #1 then say "no, #2 you'll
have to wait, I'm busy with #1" so that #1 knows they get you when they need
to.
If you're all stressed then she's going to pick that up too.
Agree with pick your battles. I remember ignoring #1 drawing on the wall
when #2 was having a midwife check. Afterwards me and her cleaned it up with
baby wipes, and afterwards I said "what a pity cleaning it took that time
when we could have done something fun". She never did it again, and I didn't
have to tell her off or be cross with her.
I go for one warning, then act. If it's dangerous, then straight to naughty
step/room/ whereever away. If she's having a tantrum then either pick up and
remove if you can, or go away and leave her. Give her a cuddle afterwards.
Maybe she needs sometimes to go out with you on your own. Leave the baby for
40minutes and have a drink at a cafe, or go and buy her a new dress.
I'm not sure how talking about it helps. A child may say "I understand why"
when they're calm and peaceful, but when the flash point comes up they won't
really remember it.
(((hugs)))
Debbie
cjra
wrote:
> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Yeah, It's definitely the baby.....today she told DH (after asking to
hold the baby) "I don't like my baby brother. I want him to go back in
mommy's tummy." Ouch. Breaks my heart. By comparison, the weekend
before he was born, she helped DH put the bassinet together and said
"This is going to be the best baby ever!" and the next morning ran
into the room asking "where's the baby?" So I had been more
hopeful....She's also trying to lay in his bassinet (funny because she
never slept in it herself when she was a baby) and sit in his
maxicosi....She still smothers him with kisses and hugs.
I'm trying to do more one on one stuff with her, but it'll be hard
during the week when I'm on my own. I keep reminding her I love her,
try to be positive with her and focus on re-direction when she does
stuff. I hope this means that it'll pass though.
Betsy
>
> I'm trying to do more one on one stuff with her, but it'll be hard
> during the week when I'm on my own. I keep reminding her I love her,
> try to be positive with her and focus on re-direction when she does
> stuff. I hope this means that it'll pass though.
Have you thought of getting a postpartum doula for a couple hours a day?
It might help with giving you the time to get nursing on track. Some
postpartum doulas are even qualified to offer nursing help suggestions.
I found having a postpartum doula helpful after my last birth. She
worked on household tasks and involved the kids while I was able to
concentrate on my baby. It was good for the kids, my baby, and me.
While she had a policy of not cooking, she could serve food that was
already there, keep kids from destroying the house or each other and
fold all the laundry.
In my area there often are doulas in training who are quite inexpensive
because they are trying to get enough experience to become certified.
--Betsy
dejablues
Yes, it will pass. It's not a bad thing for a first-born child to realize
that they aren't the only star in the universe and that from now on they
will have to share mom and dad's attention, and yes, there won't always be
enough attention to go around. That's the trade-off parents choose and
children must accept when more children are added to the family.
You know that having a sibling is beneficial to her. Don't feel guilty or
try to overcompensate in alleviating her bad feelings. The more you do, the
more you reinforce the idea that the baby is an annoyance and an interloper.
If she wants to help with the baby, let her, but do not force her.
I'm the oldest of four, born within four years. My mother did not have time
to worry about what we all thought about our younger siblings. We're all
very close to this day. My children are 20, 16, and 12, and they are also
close to each other and best friends..not always easy, but I credit my mom
with making me realize that sibling relationships are more important than
parent-child relationships.
cjra
Good points.
We definitely don't push the baby on her. Quite the contrary - she
insists on always holding him, it's an argument for me to take him to
nurse him. She's finally accepted it, but for the first week she kept
saying "No mommy, you have to share the baby. It's my turn to hold
him."
I do feel badly for her though - not so much because her center of the
universe status has been usurped, but because my formerly always happy
child is constantly on the verge of a tantrum and completely
miserable. I also don't want her to resent her brother for taking
mommy away, so clearly need to find a balance. If this is just a phase
and related to the baby, I'm a little less worried, as we can muddle
through. Part of me is worried there's something bigger going on,
because it was so sudden and drastic. Also, we have a friend whose
child behaves similarly, and always has, so I really don't want this
to become permanent!
Pologirl
Hi Cjra,
Congratulations on your new baby!
> That all changed about a month ago. It was rather sudden one day which
> makes me worried. It started off with weepiness.
I too would take her to a pediatrician for a thorough checkup. But
then I am the mother of a child who had a large tumor. Others,
parents and people who suffered from similar tumors when they were
little, have come out of the woodwork to me. A physical cause is
unlikely, but very serious.
> (baby is not gaining well and not latching so I'm nursing
> every 2 hour for 30 minutes).
Oh dear. My first was like that. Fortunately my second had no
feeding problems. Your 3yo must get very bored and cranky, waiting
for the nursling to finish. Between nursing, diaper changing, and
just keeping all heads above water, you can't have much time for
anything else.
> I'm trying to spend as much time with her as possible - fortunately
> this baby sleeps (unlike her), so I spend all that time he's asleep
> focusing on her. But this behaviour is just constant. No more my
> laughing singing dancing child, in her place is a mean, unhappy,
> aggressive, screaming child.
At 3 1/2, she is old enough to understand her behavior is not
acceptable, and that other people don't like it. So it may help to
tell her you don't like it and you are going off by yourself for a
little while until you calm down. Time out for you. You may want to
try this when DH is home, and coach him first about his responses to
her responses to you. DH really needs to stop the "no, stop that"
routine and you need to coach him in detail on how else to respond.
Many children who want attention would rather be scolded than
ignored. I find it effective to ignore the bad behavior and be ready
to reward with my attention even the slightest improvement. You say
she snaps fabric in your face. Yes, this could hurt you and cannot be
ignored. But you can attend to the danger (snapping fabric) rather
than the behavior (demanding your attention). Swiftly confiscate the
offending fabric and put it in time out / in the laundry machine / in
a closet. Say not a word about it to her. If you can manage it,
don't glare, perhaps don't even look at her while you deal directly
with the offending fabric. I am not saying cut her cold, just be
neutral toward her. Make it not about her. If nothing else, you may
find yourself feeling much more in control and calmer. You can
control a piece of fabric in a way that you cannot control a child.
Pologirl
Nikki
popped in and wanted to say congrats and I hope things settle down soon.
IME it is the expected response of a spirited child in her
situation but that doesn't really make it any easier on the parents!!
It is nice to see old familiar names on the thread. One of my 3yo's is
the same way. So busy and ornery. It is exhausting and I don't have
a newborn!
--
Nikki, mama to 4 boys.
cjra
Thanks! It is nice to see some folks around. I feel a little lost
without this group ;)
cjra
On Dec 30 2009, 2:59 pm, Pologirl <polog...@att.net> wrote:
> Hi Cjra,
>
> Congratulations on your new baby!
Thanks! I keep trying to reply and something always stops me, like a
child ;)
>
> > That all changed about a month ago. It was rather sudden one day which
> > makes me worried. It started off with weepiness.
>
> I too would take her to a pediatrician for a thorough checkup. But
> then I am the mother of a child who had a large tumor. Others,
> parents and people who suffered from similar tumors when they were
> little, have come out of the woodwork to me. A physical cause is
> unlikely, but very serious.
Well, she does have RSV at the moment, but that's fairly recent.
Things have settled down a bit, so I'm more inclined to think it's
behavioural rather than physical. I do have some concerns I'll discuss
with pedi next week.
> > (baby is not gaining well and not latching so I'm nursing
> > every 2 hour for 30 minutes).
>
> Oh dear. My first was like that. Fortunately my second had no
> feeding problems. Your 3yo must get very bored and cranky, waiting
> for the nursling to finish. Between nursing, diaper changing, and
> just keeping all heads above water, you can't have much time for
> anything else.
Exactly. I can't blame her. It's not easy with me nursing so much. I
thought he was improving (he is gaining 1 oz/day), but pedi is
concerned he's dropped form 30th% at birth to 3% at 4 weeks, despite
his recent gain. I'm working with the LC still to improve things. My
supply is good, so just getting him to latch and feed completely now.
I try to include her, and sometimes she wants to be nearby, but more
often she's annoyed.
Thanks for this. I've been doing this since you mentioned it (and told
DH to do the same). It really does seem to help. See, normally I like
to give her the "choice" to do the right thing, so I'll tell her to
stop and give her a chance to. Problem is I probably give her too
many chances. So now I've been saying it once and if it doesn't stop,
take away whatever she has immediately and not say another word. I
don't like the "silent treatment," but it seems to work as she's old
enough to understand I already told her no once. If she hits/pulls at
me when I'm nursing, I'll tell her to stop once. If she doesn't, I get
up and leave to another room. Again, I don't like doing this as I
don't like the message, but it seems to be working. She calms down
pretty quickly and her mood changes. Generally, if she's doing these
things, she's not going to just stop when I say to, but now she
doesn't do them as often. I just have to get DH to get there. He tends
to say a lot more and carry it on, which carries on *her* tantrum
longer.
I must admit that I've needed to work on my behaviour as well. I got
*very* upset the other day at DH (he woke me up for a BAD reason when
I was trying to nap after having NO sleep the night before....) and
afterwards I realized I was throwing my own tantrum, so of course I
had modeled poor behaviour. Not to mention DD said I had scared her. :
( So I am a lot more conscious of that now. And DH will not wake me up
if I manage to get a few minutes of sleep now....
We're also going to start her in preschool next week 2x/week. Had
planned to wait until a couple of weeks before I returned to work, as
I feel guilty sending her when I'm home, but we realized that she
needs that social interaction and structure, and DS needs time with me
one on one right now. Part of my problem is feeling like I'm the only
one in the world who can't handle 2 kids....I feel like a bad parent
to DD because I can't give her what she needs and a bad parent to DS
because I can't give him what he needs. I do feel like I've had to
choose him over her, but truly his physical needs are more important
at the moment.
Overall, we're at 4 weeks now since DS was born and things are looking
up with DD. Fewer tantrums, shorter tantrums, and unprompted she said
twice "I love you Mommy." :) We still have issues, but I think we're
moving forward. My Happy Hurricane has shown some signs of returning!
Thanks to all for all the advice, I really appreciate it. I was
feeling pretty despondent there for awhile. Now I feel some hope!
Pologirl
A lot of children do seem to enjoy being nagged, and a lot of parents
do an astounding amount of nagging. It's like, if telling them once
didn't work, do it over and over and over again. That is totally
stuck, you know? Now and then DH or I slip into nagging the kids,
until the other adult calls it to our attention.
A new baby always is a full time job for someone, especially when
nursing is involved because the major job (feeding) cannot be shared.
One thing we did with DS was I made a small stash of BM and when I was
totally exhausted DH fed the baby one feeding while I got a solid 3
hours of sleep. The baby did not much care for the bottle, but would
take it from DH. Of course, if it seems to make nursing more
difficult, don't do that.
Who will take your DD to preschool? Is there any time in your
schedules for parking a small distance from the school, and having a
nice one-on-one conversation while walking between car and school?
Pologirl
cjra
> I am glad things are better for you now, Cjra.
>
> A lot of children do seem to enjoy being nagged, and a lot of parents
> do an astounding amount of nagging. It's like, if telling them once
> didn't work, do it over and over and over again. That is totally
> stuck, you know? Now and then DH or I slip into nagging the kids,
> until the other adult calls it to our attention.
It's hard not too...we have to be conscientious about it.
My mom is here right now which helps a lot, esp. as DH has been on
work travel. DD is improving, as our we.
>
> A new baby always is a full time job for someone, especially when
> nursing is involved because the major job (feeding) cannot be shared.
> One thing we did with DS was I made a small stash of BM and when I was
> totally exhausted DH fed the baby one feeding while I got a solid 3
> hours of sleep. The baby did not much care for the bottle, but would
> take it from DH. Of course, if it seems to make nursing more
> difficult, don't do that.
That's what I've been doing. He takes a bottle ok so I keep one in the
fridge (I usually pump a bit during the night just to relieve
engorgement, so there's a bottle handy). DH will offer it if I'm not
immediately available, or DD can give it, which she loves.
DS is finally gaining very well (gained 10 oz in one week) and now at
6 weeks is a little chubbo, so I'm a bit more relaxed about the
nursing. He tells me often enough he's hungry, whereas before I had
to wake him.
>
> Who will take your DD to preschool? Is there any time in your
> schedules for parking a small distance from the school, and having a
> nice one-on-one conversation while walking between car and school?
If DH is here, he will take her and I pick her up. Unfortunately
there's no place to walk...it's a busy street. The center is placed
back a bit (behind a church), but there's no where to walk except the
parking lot. She loves to take the bus we discovered, so I may try to
take her on a few bus trips when we're home together. We also like to
walk alot, but it's not one on one. Whenever DS is asleep, I try to
give her some one on one attention though.
cjra
I'd try again. DD was doing better, but then DH went away on back to
back business trips. My mom came to help, which distracted DD for the
first week, but the second week was a nightmare. I just read Siblings
without Rivalry and am now reading Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles.
I've gained a lot of ideas and tips on how to deal with DD's issues,
but I've also started wondering if there's a deeper problem, and if
so, should we do anything about it or just work on our parenting
skills.
When DD was young, people did wonder if she was ok - she walked and
talked late (18 months), but is fine now. SHe's also SUPER social. She
craves and needs other kids around her. However, I was looking at the
list of autism signs, and am confused. Many seem like potentially
normal 3 yo behaviour. But the autistic kids I know tend to be more
extreme. She's so social that I never considered it, but many of the
following apply to her. That said, say she was diagnosed with it, it'd
clearly be a very mild, high functioning form, so what good would a
diagnosis be except to label her? Labelling is something I really want
to avoid. I'm willing to seek professional help, but also am a little
nervous to do so, as I don't want to go down a path of medicating. I'm
not even sure I'd tell anyone if she had a diagnosis, because I think
that would put her in a "box" where they treat her a certain way.
So, how much of the following is "normal" and how much is cause for
worry:
* Does not consistently respond to his/her name. - she has
selective hearing. She knows her name very well and does respond to
it, but plenty of times she ignores us completely
* Cannot tell you what he/she wants with words or gestures -
sometimes. She generally communicates ok, but if she's upset she can't
find the words
* Doesn’t follow directions. - well, always...at least with us.
Her DCP said this wasn't an issue for the most part, except DD is
stubborn and independent, but aren't many 3 year olds?
* Seems to be deaf at times. - again, selective hearing
* Seems to hear sometimes, but not others. - ditto. But is this
really a sign of a problem or is it also normal?
* Doesn’t point or wave bye-bye (past 15 months) or use other
gestures such as shaking his head “yes” or “no” appropriately and back
and forth in conversation. - not an issue for DD
* Used to say a few words or babble, but now he/she doesn’t. - not
a problem, she talks in monologues...
* Throws intense or violent tantrums. - definitely!
* Has odd movement patterns such as flapping arms or shaking body,
especially when excited. - no, unless you count her crazy dancing
* Shows other odd visual behaviors such as staring repeatedly at
spinning wheels on a toy or shifting his eyes to the side as he runs.
- I haven't noticed this
* Seems hyperactive much of the time; is always “on the go.” -
ALWAYS, but then so was I as a child
* Is often uncooperative or oppositional during daily routines. -
Usually, at least for us. DCP claims otherwise. My mom who cared for
her a few times also claims otherwise, until the past 2 weeks, but I
was also there this time. In the past, my mom was on her own with DD.
It's not daily, but there are plenty of times she fights teeth
brushing or bath. She always fights hair brushing....I figured it was
just her way to control things.
* Doesn’t know how to play with toys. Might spin or line them up
excessively. - not an issue, though she does find creative ways for
using toys sometimes.
* Doesn’t smile when smiled at. - not an issue, unless she's got
that selective hearing thing going on and isn't looking at you.
* Doesn’t make eye contact. He/she seems to look right through/
past you. - again, not an issue usually, she CAN make eye contact, but
there are times she refuses to. I know she's listening though, because
I can usually see a little smirk on her face
* Gets “stuck” on things over and over and can’t move on to other
things. - not really, though she is persistent
* Seems to prefer to play alone. - not this at all, she's highly
social and always prefers to play with others
* Gets things for him/herself only without asking for help. - yes,
but is this really a sign of a problem? So she figured out how to move
a chair to reach the scissors (and found the higher chair since the
other chair didn't work...). Her pre-K teacher just says she's smart.
* Is very independent for his/her age. - yes, except when it comes
to playing with others (she seems very dependent). But again, is
independence a problem?
* Seems to be in his/her “own world.” - kinda sorta....when she's
doing the selective hearing thing she seems off in another world
* Seems to tune people out. - definitely tunes us out *at times*,
she's also very engaging
* Shows very little interest in other children. - not an
issue,quite the opposite
* Or may interact inappropriately with other children. - not an
issue, I'm pretty sure she interacts well with other kids, though
lately she's gotten a bit more aggressive/selfish. However, her pre-K
teacher just noted that the kids she most quickly befriended (she just
started), were the more aggressive, active boys, because she fits in
with them.
* Walks on his/her toes. - haven't seen this for awhile
* Shows unusual attachments to toys, objects, or schedules (i.e.,
always holding a string or having to put socks on before pants). -
Definitely. She will wear the same clothes for a week if i let her,
and routine is VERY important to her on somethings - i.e. she has 3-4
cereals she likes, they must be placed in the bowl in a certain order,
but it's not the same order every day, she decides then on the order.
Pasta must have sauce first THEN cheese... one day I parked the car in
a different place and she freaked. However that was while DH was gone.
Yesterday I parked it in a different place, merely told her where it
was and she skipped happily to it. Otherwise, she really doesn't like
routines. SHe is attached to certain toys, but that attachment varies.
* Spends a lot of time lining things up or putting things in a
certain order and gets upset if this is disrupted. - Yes, she likes to
line up her cereal boxes and make them just so. Everything in the
house otherwise is totally out of order
* Has delayed speech-language skills when compared to other
children of the same age. - she spoke late, but she also is bilingual,
and seems to be on a par for her age now
* Memorizes and quotes long scripts of favorite TV shows, sing
entire songs, or label lots of objects, but he/she uses very few
“real” or meaningful words to ask for things or participate in
conversation. - haven't seen this yet but she does remember a lot
* Repeats what he/she hears rather than using words on his own. -
no
* Learns to read at age 2 or 3 (or has a very strong interest in
visual symbols such as letters and numbers), but has difficulty
communicating with others in a meaningful way. - not really. She knows
letters and numbers well, but can't make the words yet. But then, is
reading early really a problem?
* Is a very picky eater. May eat only 3 or 4 different foods. -
kind of. She's picky, but will eat just about everything. It's just
that on any given day she may not eat anything....again I think this
is a control issue.
I present this list not so you can diagnose her for me, but to show
how confused I am! So many of those things seem like normal behaviour
to me.
I want to seek medical advice,but at the same time am a bit wary.
While I agree definining/diagnosing a problem is critical to getting
it addressed, it also seems that medical professionals are very quick
to diagnose autism or ADD/ADHD and I just don't want her labelled with
a diagnosis unless it's *real* and that the diagnosis helps us in some
way. If the 'treatment' is to do what we're doing - learn better
parenting skills appropriate to her personality, I'd rather *not* slap
the label on her.
gmbe...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>SInce I saw some signs of life out there (thanks very much!) I thought
>I'd try again. DD was doing better, but then DH went away on back to
>back business trips. My mom came to help, which distracted DD for the
>first week, but the second week was a nightmare. I just read Siblings
>without Rivalry and am now reading Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles.
>I've gained a lot of ideas and tips on how to deal with DD's issues,
>but I've also started wondering if there's a deeper problem, and if
>so, should we do anything about it or just work on our parenting
>skills.
>
>When DD was young, people did wonder if she was ok - she walked and
>talked late (18 months), but is fine now. SHe's also SUPER social. She
>craves and needs other kids around her. However, I was looking at the
>list of autism signs, and am confused. Many seem like potentially
>normal 3 yo behaviour. But the autistic kids I know tend to be more
>extreme. She's so social that I never considered it, but many of the
>following apply to her. That said, say she was diagnosed with it, it'd
>clearly be a very mild, high functioning form, so what good would a
>diagnosis be except to label her? Labelling is something I really want
>to avoid. I'm willing to seek professional help, but also am a little
>nervous to do so, as I don't want to go down a path of medicating. I'm
>not even sure I'd tell anyone if she had a diagnosis, because I think
>that would put her in a "box" where they treat her a certain way.
>
>So, how much of the following is "normal" and how much is cause for
>worry:
Every kid is different. I think it was easier when I was raising kids
as we didn't know as much about autism or dyslexia and I never even
considered it as a possibility. I'm thinking now that I might be a
little dyslexic (can't spell and can't add) and maybe I'm autistic too
as I'm not very social.
My opinion here is that she is so far away from most of these criteria
that you should not be concerned about autism. It seems to me like
you are trying to force her into the box.
I'm reminded of the old joke where the old Quaker says to his wife
"Everyone is crazy but me and thee, and sometimes I wonder about thee"
enigma
news:7c40f1d3-20a7-442f...@o3g2000yqb.googlegroups.c
om:
i don't think you need to worry about autism, but if she has
"selective hearing" you might want to get her checked for an auditory
processing disorder. is she particularly likely to ignore you/not
respond if there are other noises happening at the same time, like tv
or a radio, or a plane flying over?
does she seem to have any other sensory issues? food texture
aversion, need to be touching others, stuff like that?
lee
Welches
<snipped long post>
That's a huge list, and I suspect that most children could tick "yes" on a
selection.
I'll comment on two things.
One is selective deafness. When I was growing up there was a joke about
"male selecive deafness"-they can hear the "dinner time" but not the
"washing up time". #2 (age 6)does that a lot. I get her to repeat back to me
what I've said or else she will say she didn't hear/didn't
understand/forgot. If I get her to repeat back then she almost always knows
exactly what I've said, so it is a "choice" not a hearing problem. She's
worse if she's engrosed in doing something (and I'm asking her to do
something she doesn't want to even worse!)
Other one is the lining up. #3 (age 2) lines up his cars. He'll do a line
one end of the room and then drive them one by one to the other side to
line up then. He'll even line up his sister's doll buggies. We call it the
traffic jam (or the M25) game. He also likes to do it with clothes pegs-all
the same way up, sometimes colour coordinated. He doesn't do it with
anything else.
I think both of these are normal behaviour.
Debbie
toto
wrote:
Girls are much more difficult to diagnose because they pick up some of
the social cues and *want* to socialize, but often have trouble
interpreting things. Also because most of the concentration has been
on boys, docs don't really know a lot about diagnosing girls.
>So, how much of the following is "normal" and how much is cause for
>worry:
>
> * Does not consistently respond to his/her name. - she has
>selective hearing. She knows her name very well and does respond to
>it, but plenty of times she ignores us completely
Could be normal, could be ADD or Asperger's or just plain selective
hearing because she does not want to hear what you are saying to her.
> * Cannot tell you what he/she wants with words or gestures -
>sometimes. She generally communicates ok, but if she's upset she can't
>find the words
This sounds like an executive functioning problem. Might or might not
be autism related. Might have to do with a non-verbal learning
disorder too.
> * Doesn�t follow directions. - well, always...at least with us.
Could easily be normal.
>Her DCP said this wasn't an issue for the most part, except DD is
>stubborn and independent, but aren't many 3 year olds?
> * Seems to be deaf at times. - again, selective hearing
> * Seems to hear sometimes, but not others. - ditto. But is this
>really a sign of a problem or is it also normal?
Really these can be normal or not depending on so many other things.
> * Doesn�t point or wave bye-bye (past 15 months) or use other
>gestures such as shaking his head �yes� or �no� appropriately and back
>and forth in conversation. - not an issue for DD
> * Used to say a few words or babble, but now he/she doesn�t. - not
>a problem, she talks in monologues...
Monologues can be normal or they can be autistic. Does she change
topics or perseverate on a single interest most of the time. The
interests can change, but might go on for a week or more.
> * Throws intense or violent tantrums. - definitely!
Age? At 2 this can be normal because of issues with communication.
At 3 or 4, they should be more able to get the communication going and
be having less tantrums and/or less violent ones, imo. Meltdowns are
different from tantrums and usually seem to happen when a child is
overloaded in a sensory way.
> * Has odd movement patterns such as flapping arms or shaking body,
>especially when excited. - no, unless you count her crazy dancing
> * Shows other odd visual behaviors such as staring repeatedly at
>spinning wheels on a toy or shifting his eyes to the side as he runs.
>- I haven't noticed this
ok
> * Seems hyperactive much of the time; is always �on the go.� -
>ALWAYS, but then so was I as a child
Can be ADHD or autism related. This depends a lot on how much the
activity level keeps a child from learning from the world really.
> * Is often uncooperative or oppositional during daily routines. -
>Usually, at least for us. DCP claims otherwise. My mom who cared for
>her a few times also claims otherwise, until the past 2 weeks, but I
>was also there this time. In the past, my mom was on her own with DD.
>It's not daily, but there are plenty of times she fights teeth
>brushing or bath. She always fights hair brushing....I figured it was
>just her way to control things.
>
Controlling behavior can be autistic or just temperamental. Also many
kids do better with others than they do with parents. They know
parents are going to love them regardless of their behavior, so they
can safely act out with them.
> * Doesn�t know how to play with toys. Might spin or line them up
>excessively. - not an issue, though she does find creative ways for
>using toys sometimes.
> * Doesn�t smile when smiled at. - not an issue, unless she's got
>that selective hearing thing going on and isn't looking at you.
OK
> * Doesn�t make eye contact. He/she seems to look right through/
>past you. - again, not an issue usually, she CAN make eye contact, but
>there are times she refuses to. I know she's listening though, because
>I can usually see a little smirk on her face
Many autistic people say that they listen *better* when they are not
making eye contact. Eye contact can get in the way of paying
attention to the words.
> * Gets �stuck� on things over and over and can�t move on to other
>things. - not really, though she is persistent
> * Seems to prefer to play alone. - not this at all, she's highly
>social and always prefers to play with others
How are her friendships. Does she try to control the activities or
accept input from her friends? Is she flexible about playing with
them or does the play have to go her way? Does she know how to enter
a group? Does she know how to allow others to enter her play and help
them find roles in the play?
> * Gets things for him/herself only without asking for help. - yes,
>but is this really a sign of a problem? So she figured out how to move
>a chair to reach the scissors (and found the higher chair since the
>other chair didn't work...). Her pre-K teacher just says she's smart.
Can be smart, but... it can mean a problem if the child really does
not know how to ask for help or how to accept help.
> * Is very independent for his/her age. - yes, except when it comes
>to playing with others (she seems very dependent). But again, is
>independence a problem?
Not really a problem unless it is so extreme that she cannot play with
you or accept help when it is warranted.
> * Seems to be in his/her �own world.� - kinda sorta....when she's
>doing the selective hearing thing she seems off in another world
Might be ADD or Autism related, but could just be daydreaming and
creative too.
> * Seems to tune people out. - definitely tunes us out *at times*,
>she's also very engaging
> * Shows very little interest in other children. - not an
>issue,quite the opposite
> * Or may interact inappropriately with other children. - not an
>issue, I'm pretty sure she interacts well with other kids, though
>lately she's gotten a bit more aggressive/selfish. However, her pre-K
>teacher just noted that the kids she most quickly befriended (she just
>started), were the more aggressive, active boys, because she fits in
>with them.
Sounds like she is relatively socially appropriate.
> * Walks on his/her toes. - haven't seen this for awhile
ok. Many kids do this for a while early on and then stop.
> * Shows unusual attachments to toys, objects, or schedules (i.e.,
>always holding a string or having to put socks on before pants). -
>Definitely. She will wear the same clothes for a week if i let her,
>and routine is VERY important to her on somethings - i.e. she has 3-4
>cereals she likes, they must be placed in the bowl in a certain order,
>but it's not the same order every day, she decides then on the order.
>Pasta must have sauce first THEN cheese... one day I parked the car in
>a different place and she freaked. However that was while DH was gone.
>Yesterday I parked it in a different place, merely told her where it
>was and she skipped happily to it. Otherwise, she really doesn't like
>routines. SHe is attached to certain toys, but that attachment varies.
This can be autism related.
> * Spends a lot of time lining things up or putting things in a
>certain order and gets upset if this is disrupted. - Yes, she likes to
>line up her cereal boxes and make them just so. Everything in the
>house otherwise is totally out of order
Again, this is an autistic trait, but normal kids may do it as well.
> * Has delayed speech-language skills when compared to other
>children of the same age. - she spoke late, but she also is bilingual,
>and seems to be on a par for her age now
> * Memorizes and quotes long scripts of favorite TV shows, sing
>entire songs, or label lots of objects, but he/she uses very few
>�real� or meaningful words to ask for things or participate in
>conversation. - haven't seen this yet but she does remember a lot
> * Repeats what he/she hears rather than using words on his own. -
>no
Ok
> * Learns to read at age 2 or 3 (or has a very strong interest in
>visual symbols such as letters and numbers), but has difficulty
>communicating with others in a meaningful way. - not really. She knows
>letters and numbers well, but can't make the words yet. But then, is
>reading early really a problem?
It can be a problem *if* the child is reading and not understanding
what they read. That's called hyperlexia. It doesn't sound like she
has that.
> * Is a very picky eater. May eat only 3 or 4 different foods. -
>kind of. She's picky, but will eat just about everything. It's just
>that on any given day she may not eat anything....again I think this
>is a control issue.
Control issues are common with this age and also in autism, so it is a
difficult call.
Picky eating can be related to sensory issues as well. Does she eat
only specific textures? That could be sensory.
Good luck!
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
toto
wrote:
>I want to seek medical advice,but at the same time am a bit wary.
>While I agree definining/diagnosing a problem is critical to getting
>it addressed, it also seems that medical professionals are very quick
>to diagnose autism or ADD/ADHD and I just don't want her labelled with
>a diagnosis unless it's *real* and that the diagnosis helps us in some
>way. If the 'treatment' is to do what we're doing - learn better
>parenting skills appropriate to her personality, I'd rather *not* slap
>the label on her.
Seeking help does not have to mean getting a dx or label.
Btw, you will not find docs who are *quick* to diagnose autism, though
you might find some who are *quick* to diagnose adhd. Most of us who
have children on the autism spectrum found getting the dx to be quite
difficult unless the child was very severe and obvious.
My dgd was just dxed at 7 with asperger's because girls are much more
difficult to dx than boys and because she did not present in the same
way her brother did.
cjra
re: putting her into a box, I'm actually trying to do the opposite.
I'm worried about that happening which is why I'm hesitant about
seeking professional help. At the same time, I don't want to do her a
disservice by ignoring what could be a real problem. I'd rather it was
just a matter of working on my parenting skills than a true disorder
for her.
re: ignoring us - it's not related to other noises. She'll ignore us
if she's focused on something else, or if she's just annoyed with
us...
re: sensory issues - nothing glaring. She really hates when the seam
of her sock isn't on right, but I have the same problem...when she was
younger she was bothered a bit by tags, but not that much. She also
hates wearing 3/4 length sleeves or when long sleeves get caught in
her jacket/sweater, but I have the exact same issues. The difference
is I don't have a meltdown because of it...foodwise, texture isn't a
problem. She's fussy about eating but I do think that's just a control
thing, since she will, at some point, eat anything. Her favourite
right now is smoked salmon. She also loves pate, two things with an
odd texture.
It helps to know her behaviours could be normal. It's really helpful
to hear from others.
I wanted to respond a bit more indepth to Dorothy -
On Feb 4, 12:30 pm, toto <scarec...@wicked.witch> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:25:27 -0800 (PST), cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Girls are much more difficult to diagnose because they pick up some of
> the social cues and *want* to socialize, but often have trouble
> interpreting things. Also because most of the concentration has been
> on boys, docs don't really know a lot about diagnosing girls.
I think DD is just by nature very gregarious. She's been like that
since birth.
>
> > * Does not consistently respond to his/her name. - she has
> >selective hearing. She knows her name very well and does respond to
> >it, but plenty of times she ignores us completely
>
> Could be normal, could be ADD or Asperger's or just plain selective
> hearing because she does not want to hear what you are saying to her.
I wouldn't be shocked by a diagnosis of ADD/ADHD but I do tend to
think she's just ignoring us. I know she often does hear us, because
she'll comment on what we said later or if I force her to listen,
she'll sigh and say "fine!"
> > * Cannot tell you what he/she wants with words or gestures -
> >sometimes. She generally communicates ok, but if she's upset she can't
> >find the words
>
> This sounds like an executive functioning problem. Might or might not
> be autism related. Might have to do with a non-verbal learning
> disorder too.
DH disagreed that she does this. She seems to communicate fine when
she's calm, but not when she's worked up, which isn't surprising. Most
of us have trouble finding the right words when we're upset. Now, that
said, she did speak late (18 months), though she's bilingual so we
weren't too worried.
> > * Doesn’t point or wave bye-bye (past 15 months) or use other
> >gestures such as shaking his head “yes” or “no” appropriately and back
> >and forth in conversation. - not an issue for DD
> > * Used to say a few words or babble, but now he/she doesn’t. - not
> >a problem, she talks in monologues...
>
> Monologues can be normal or they can be autistic. Does she change
> topics or perseverate on a single interest most of the time. The
> interests can change, but might go on for a week or more.
By monologues I just mean she talks a lot. She's usually telling a
story of some sort, and she'll stop. Then start again 2 seconds later.
She doesn't change topics like she's distracted (i.e. running from one
topic to another in mid-stream), she'll generally finish a story, then
move on to something else. However, she does get fixated on things.
Every morning for 6 weeks after we returned from a short holiday she
asked if she could go on an airplane (or "Is today the day we take the
airplane?" "I want to go on an airplane to the beach!") She was
obsessed. It ended when we took another trip and another airplane.
Then she got fixated on school buses. I think that's because she
wanted to go to school to be with the other kids. She can spot them a
mile away and gets so excited when she sees one. I've been taking her
on local buses lately (city bus and a street car) in hopes that would
help curb that obsession.
>
> > * Throws intense or violent tantrums. - definitely!
>
> Age? At 2 this can be normal because of issues with communication.
> At 3 or 4, they should be more able to get the communication going and
> be having less tantrums and/or less violent ones, imo. Meltdowns are
> different from tantrums and usually seem to happen when a child is
> overloaded in a sensory way.
>
She's 3.5. Oddly enough, we didn't really have the terrible twos. She
had the occasional tantrum, but 2 was not too difficult for us. It was
only after 3, and really in the last 2.5 months since just before DS
was born that this has become extreme. I'd say they are more meltdowns
than tantrums and we're working hard at trying to recognize them
before they build up and prevent them from happening, but there are
tantrums too.
> > * Seems hyperactive much of the time; is always “on the go.” -
> >ALWAYS, but then so was I as a child
>
> Can be ADHD or autism related. This depends a lot on how much the
> activity level keeps a child from learning from the world really.
Interesting way to put it. As I said I wouldn't be shocked if she was
diagnosed with ADHD, but at the same time I don't see it as
interfering with how she learns things or interacts. It just means she
runs a mile a minute.
> > * Doesn’t make eye contact. He/she seems to look right through/
> >past you. - again, not an issue usually, she CAN make eye contact, but
> >there are times she refuses to. I know she's listening though, because
> >I can usually see a little smirk on her face
>
> Many autistic people say that they listen *better* when they are not
> making eye contact. Eye contact can get in the way of paying
> attention to the words.
Interesting. She may be listening but she's ignoring me...
>
> > * Gets “stuck” on things over and over and can’t move on to other
> >things. - not really, though she is persistent
> > * Seems to prefer to play alone. - not this at all, she's highly
> >social and always prefers to play with others
>
> How are her friendships. Does she try to control the activities or
> accept input from her friends? Is she flexible about playing with
> them or does the play have to go her way? Does she know how to enter
> a group? Does she know how to allow others to enter her play and help
> them find roles in the play?
>
Hmmm. Until recently I'd say her friendships were great. She was
always willing to go with the flow. Now, she is bossy and always has
been, but for the most part was pretty flexible. However, recently
that's changed, at least with one set of friends. She's always been
devoted to the older one, a boy and he to her. They played together
well and he doted on her. His younger sister, closer in age to DD, had
a totally different personality. She and DD got along, but never
great. Recently, it became a major battle ground with the 3 of them.
the girl didn't like DD taking away her brother. In the past DD didn't
seem to even notice her animosity, but now she does, and DD fought
back. The boy goes between doting on DD to piss his sister off and
getting tired of the whole thing and leaving. There have been times
when both girls pull on his arms in different directions to try to get
him to do what each wants. It was around this time her behaviour
really hit it's bad stride. I don't know if it is in response to this
or this is happening because of her behaviour.
In the past, and it seems still with other kids she is pretty
flexible. And as she does like to direct, helping them find roles to
play is her forte...Now, entering a group is mixed. She just started
pre-K, 10 new kids, and according to the teacher has jumped right in.
(She talks about all her friends and from what I've seen, is very
comfortable with them all). However, I've also seen when we've gone to
a party with a bunch of kids she doesn't know but they all know each
other, and she shies away, becoming introverted. DH and I are kind of
the same way though (I'm pretty extroverted but in some situations
tend to get introverted. DH is introverted who makes an effort to be
extroverted).
> > * Gets things for him/herself only without asking for help. - yes,
> >but is this really a sign of a problem? So she figured out how to move
> >a chair to reach the scissors (and found the higher chair since the
> >other chair didn't work...). Her pre-K teacher just says she's smart.
>
> Can be smart, but... it can mean a problem if the child really does
> not know how to ask for help or how to accept help.
She tries to figure out what to do, and if she can't do it, I hear
"Mommy, you help me!" The stuff she does without asking is usually
stuff she's not supposed to do (like reaching for the scissors we've
specifically placed out of reach). She will often say "No, I do it!"
but doesn't hesitate to ask for help if she can't.
> > * Is very independent for his/her age. - yes, except when it comes
> >to playing with others (she seems very dependent). But again, is
> >independence a problem?
>
> Not really a problem unless it is so extreme that she cannot play with
> you or accept help when it is warranted.
She always wants others to play with her. She's independent only in
that she thinks she can do things without help, and tries them.
> > * Shows unusual attachments to toys, objects, or schedules (i.e.,
> >always holding a string or having to put socks on before pants). -
> >Definitely. She will wear the same clothes for a week if i let her,
> >and routine is VERY important to her on somethings - i.e. she has 3-4
> >cereals she likes, they must be placed in the bowl in a certain order,
> >but it's not the same order every day, she decides then on the order.
> >Pasta must have sauce first THEN cheese... one day I parked the car in
> >a different place and she freaked. However that was while DH was gone.
> >Yesterday I parked it in a different place, merely told her where it
> >was and she skipped happily to it. Otherwise, she really doesn't like
> >routines. SHe is attached to certain toys, but that attachment varies.
>
> This can be autism related.
That was the behaviour that caused me to start looking up symptoms.
Apparently, though, she's only like this with us. At school and at the
daycare before this, it was never an issue.Which makes me question how
we should respond. See, I'm ok with giving her that amount of control,
since I figure at 3 there's so little to control in her life. I'm only
bothered by it if it leads to a tantrum, otherwise, I'll oblige. But
given that we do oblige, when it goes wrong, then what?
> > * Learns to read at age 2 or 3 (or has a very strong interest in
> >visual symbols such as letters and numbers), but has difficulty
> >communicating with others in a meaningful way. - not really. She knows
> >letters and numbers well, but can't make the words yet. But then, is
> >reading early really a problem?
>
> It can be a problem *if* the child is reading and not understanding
> what they read. That's called hyperlexia. It doesn't sound like she
> has that.
No, I don't think she can read yet. She just reads the letters, not
knowing what they say.
>
> > * Is a very picky eater. May eat only 3 or 4 different foods. -
> >kind of. She's picky, but will eat just about everything. It's just
> >that on any given day she may not eat anything....again I think this
> >is a control issue.
>
> Control issues are common with this age and also in autism, so it is a
> difficult call.
>
> Picky eating can be related to sensory issues as well. Does she eat
> only specific textures? That could be sensory.
I looked at that, but as noted above, no. She was late to start solids
- she just wouldn't eat them. Then she did, with gusto, but only
pureed stuff for a very long time. It took awhile for her to go into
finger foods. Eventually she at everything imaginable, all textures,
with a few specific dislikes (meat, avocado). Until she hit about 2.5
then she started being really fussy about eating. Still she'll eat
everything at some point, just never when we want her to...
Thanks for all the guidance. You've given me a lot more to think
about. Her pedi is pretty non-interventionist, so I'm going to try to
discuss it with him without her there, to see if he thinks this
warrants further evaluation with a specialist.
Pologirl
> Her pedi is pretty non-interventionist, so I'm going to try to
> discuss it with him without her there, to see if he thinks this
> warrants further evaluation with a specialist.
So is ours, and also very well informed about a lot of topics. For
years I raised the same list of concerns at every well baby / well
child appointment and got "wait and see". Well, now DS is in public
kindergarden and thriving in some respects but struggling in others.
After I consented to have him receive evaluation and then speech
therapy for a very minor articulation problem, he was "in the system"
with an IEP in place so it was relatively easy for me to request and
promptly get him evaluated for gross motor skills and sensory
integration. The specialists pin-pointed several areas where he has
significant delay. We suspect he may have an obscure hereditary
neurological problem, but before going the route of an MRI of his
brain and extensive testing by a pediatric neurologist, we are trying
a little more wait and see while we take some steps that are
relatively simple to do. We got him a thorough eye exam by a
pediatric opthalmologist, added vitamins to his diet, and started
really digging into family history, and we agreed to him getting
therapy for the delays that have been identified. In some areas I see
progress already and I regret that I did not push harder years ago
when I first became concerned. He loves his therapy; it is delivered
in pull-out classes where he and one or two other children get to play
fun games with the therapist.
The family history has turned up a large cohort of distant cousins
with sensory integration issues (and a support network for me). Many
of these cousins are very bright, but even the brightest ones
developed major problems in school, at least initially. All who had
parents who consented to special ed were helped by special ed; the
sad cases are the children whose parents refused to let them be
helped.
A child with a disability who is "high functioning" is not necessarily
only mildly affected. Some children are severely effected, yet are
not functionally disabled because they find (with help or on their
own) many ways to compensate.
CJRA, the thing of greatest concern to me in what you described is the
inability to use words when upset. This is a skill that comes with
development, and in some children it is delayed. It does sound as if
your DD is delayed in this respect. Delay may be due to nature
(something about her brain) or nurture (something about her
environment). You have basically 3 choices: do nothing and wait to
see if it gets better (often it does), try to help her yourself, or
get professional help. I am increasingly in favor of professional
help, now that I have seen some professionals at work. The fact that
your day care provider does not see what you see worries me. The
provider may be contributing to your DD's delay.
Pologirl
cjra
You make a good point. We've been waffling about seeking professional
help. Discussing it with friends, some whose kids have assorted delays/
behaviour issues/disorders, and they all say *they* don't see anything
unusual in her behaviour. But it's still nagging at me. DH is really
hesitant to seek professional help, just because of the label
thing....
Her previous DCP and now her current (a preschool) both say she
doesn't exhibit the behaviours I see. She's rarely upset there, she
never has tantrums, rarely has to be scolded. She eats everything, she
does whatever is required - as long as we're not there.
I think though, that it's worth a frank discussion with her pedi. In
some ways she seems so advanced for her age, and in other ways, she
seems really behind, particularly in some of her behaviours.
Thanks for the insight. I really appreciate it.