Ornaments
LADM
year old could make?
Thanks
Lauré
Please post and e-mail your answers, I have a major
problem with my server picking up all messages and
this is the only way I can check.
So many interests, so little time.
All opinions welcome, even opposing opinions
Rosalie B.
Plaster casts of their hands, or other objects which they could finger
paint?
Que...@A.mail.hub.infoave.net (LADM) wrote:
grandma Rosalie
Kimberly Weiss
(LADM) wrote:
>Does anybody have any suggestions for Christmas tree ornaments a 2
>year old could make?
>
>Thanks
>
>Lauré
>
>Please post and e-mail your answers, I have a major
>problem with my server picking up all messages and
>this is the only way I can check.
Dough ornaments. There's a recipe out there somewhere for ornaments
that are made with very salty dough, with the consistency of
playdough. After you make the ornament, you can bake it and paint it.
Kim
MarjiG
<kaw...@indiana.edu> writes:
>Dough ornaments. There's a recipe out there somewhere for ornaments
>that are made with very salty dough, with the consistency of
>playdough. After you make the ornament, you can bake it and paint it.
>
Does anyone have the recipe for the applesauce and cinnamon ornaments?
-Marjorie
Mom to Sarah (8) and Carys (5.5)
Jill
ornaments, we are going to cut out pictures of the kids at daycare and then let
the 2 year olds fill them with Christmas ribbon and stuff, then we'll add a
hook and send them home as gifts for the parents......
another thing I have done is make an ornament out of popsicle sticks, the kids
glue them into a square (with help) then I let them paint them and glitter
them and then we fill with a picture and tie on some yarn to hang it, really
cute!
Jill........
"To really communicate with
someone, we have to allow ourselves, just for a moment, to
become that other person. When we do this, we begin to be
able to see beyond the masks that hide what another person
is really feeling."
T68b
Cinnamon, with just enough applesauce added to make a dough. Roll out, poke
hole in the top and bake on low.
Simple, and smells great!!!!
Jill
>hole in the top and bake on low.
>Simple, and smells great!!!!
>
>
our girl scout leader added a bit of glue to this mixture, too, i wonder if its
to help witht he crumbling?
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> My daycare partner and I went out and got a bunch of those clear plastic
> ornaments, we are going to cut out pictures of the kids at daycare and then let
> the 2 year olds fill them with Christmas ribbon and stuff, then we'll add a
> hook and send them home as gifts for the parents......
> another thing I have done is make an ornament out of popsicle sticks, the kids
> glue them into a square (with help) then I let them paint them and glitter
> them and then we fill with a picture and tie on some yarn to hang it, really
> cute!
I hope there are no non-Christian children at your daycare.
Naomi
Bob
As the parent of a non-Christian child, I appreciate the thought, but
Christmas is actually a fairly secular holiday, so we don't mind having
a cute ornament coming home from daycare.
The modern, family-oriented, holiday we know as Christmas was invented
as a way to tone down the revelers who where treating it as an excuse
to go out drinking. When the holiday caught on as a commercial success,
the Church joined the bandwagon a bit grudgingly.
Just don't try to teach him the Christian top-ten list.
Marion Baumgarten
>
> I hope there are no non-Christian children at your daycare.
>
> Naomi
Or maybe it's a daycare at a church or a home daycare that is explictly
religious. Though I'm not sure a popsicle stick picture frame with your
child's picture in it counts as specifically Christian.
--
Marion Betor Baumgarten- Mother to die Wunderkinder
-Martha (11) Peter (8)
St. John's College, Annapolis, 1982
Naomi Lynne Pardue
>>Jill <happ...@aol.comedy> wrote:
>>> My daycare partner and I went out and got a bunch of those clear plastic
>>>ornaments, we are going to cut out pictures of the kids at daycare and then let
>>> the 2 year olds fill them with Christmas ribbon and stuff, then we'll add a
>>> hook and send them home as gifts for the parents......
>>
>>>another thing I have done is make an ornament out of popsicle sticks, the kids
>>> glue them into a square (with help) then I let them paint them and glitter
>>> them and then we fill with a picture and tie on some yarn to hang it, really
>>> cute!
>>
>>
>>Naomi
> As the parent of a non-Christian child, I appreciate the thought, but
> Christmas is actually a fairly secular holiday, so we don't mind having
> a cute ornament coming home from daycare.
As another parent of a non-Christian child I disagree that Christmas is a
secular holiday. (WE don't celebrate the birth of Jesus, which IS what
Christmas is primarily about.)
> The modern, family-oriented, holiday we know as Christmas was invented
> as a way to tone down the revelers who where treating it as an excuse
> to go out drinking. When the holiday caught on as a commercial success,
> the Church joined the bandwagon a bit grudgingly.
I WOULD be very upset if my child's daycare or school sent home a
christmas ornament as a project. A picture frame would not a a problem,
but the 'Christmas ribbon' part would be.
This is just a gentle reminder to caregivers that not all children are
Christian, not all families consider Christmas to be a secular holiday
that is nothing but an excuse for revelry, and that that are MANY
winter-oriented crafts projects that would be appropriate for children of
ALL religious beliefs.
Naomi
Naomi Lynne Pardue
Marion Baumgarten <mari...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I hope there are no non-Christian children at your daycare.
>>
>> Naomi
> Or maybe it's a daycare at a church or a home daycare that is explictly
> religious. Though I'm not sure a popsicle stick picture frame with your
> child's picture in it counts as specifically Christian.
Yes, of course it may be. If it is, then the project is not problematic.
If it is a general daycare, then it would be considerate to take into
account the needs of all the children there.
Naomi
(Who had a VERY hard time making her child's daycare teacher understand,
some years back, why a Christmas play about Santa and his reindeer and
songs about Christmas trees were troubling to me.)
Bob
>
>Bob <remov...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>Jill <happ...@aol.comedy> wrote:
>>>> My daycare partner and I went out and got a bunch of those clear plastic
>>>>ornaments, we are going to cut out pictures of the kids at daycare and then let
>>>> the 2 year olds fill them with Christmas ribbon and stuff, then we'll add a
>>>> hook and send them home as gifts for the parents......
>>>
>>>>another thing I have done is make an ornament out of popsicle sticks, the kids
>>>> glue them into a square (with help) then I let them paint them and glitter
>>>>them and then we fill with a picture and tie on some yarn to hang it, really
>>>> cute!
>>>
>>>
>>>Naomi
>
>> Christmas is actually a fairly secular holiday, so we don't mind having
>> a cute ornament coming home from daycare.
>
>As another parent of a non-Christian child I disagree that Christmas is a
>secular holiday. (WE don't celebrate the birth of Jesus, which IS what
>Christmas is primarily about.)
Christmas is about whatever you decide it's about. I was in Christmas
programs in school. We've always had a Christmas tree and lights on
the house. We waited for Santa Claus. We gave gifts to friends and
family and to charity (even the year that most of our toys came from
charity), but I am not a Christian.
The Biblical story that has been twisted and bent to fit this winter
holiday (and provide its current name) is just another Yuletide custom
that some families buy into and others don't, like hanging stockings,
caroling, etc. It's not at all "the reason for the season".
We don't believe that snowmen come to life, but we don't object to
the story of Frosty the Snowman.
LADM
I think you need to explain this to me too because I don't understand
it. Santa and his reindeer and Christmas trees are not Christian in
origin.
Lauré
Please post and e-mail your answers, I have a major
problem with my server picking up all messages and
this is the only way I can check.
So many interests, so little time.
Naomi Lynne Pardue
>>As another parent of a non-Christian child I disagree that Christmas is a
>>secular holiday. (WE don't celebrate the birth of Jesus, which IS what
>>Christmas is primarily about.)
> Christmas is about whatever you decide it's about.
Indeed. And I believe it is about Jesus and Christianity, and therefore I
am very troubled by the assumption that is made too often that trees and
wreaths and Santa are totally secular and should therefore be acceptable
to everyone.
I was in Christmas
> programs in school. We've always had a Christmas tree and lights on
> the house. We waited for Santa Claus. We gave gifts to friends and
> family and to charity (even the year that most of our toys came from
> charity), but I am not a Christian.
I don't know what faith you profess, but most people who believe sincerely
in another faith will NOT put up Christmas trees and wait for Santa Claus.
Naomi
Claire Petersky
Different religions have different attitudes about taking on customs and
rituals of other religions. What one non-Christian may choose to do may be
different than another.
Because in Europe and America Jews have lived among Christians for
centuries (and not always treated well over those centuries), I think Jews
are particularly concerned about not doing anything Christian in form or
content. Because Christmas is so incredibly pervasive -- you have to
practically barracade yourself in your house to avoid it -- Jews will feel
particularly under attack during this time of year.
In our family, there have been lots of interfaith marriages. I feel like
I have made my peace with Santa, the tree, and whatnot. But this has taken
some bit of personal work on my part. Within the context of a Jewish
community group I lead discussion groups on interfaith/intercultural
families. In the last discussion group two weeks ago, Jewish people
expressed pretty strong feelings about Christmas symbols and rituals. The
tree was a lighting rod (so to speak) for many.
Sure, Santa doesn't have much to do with the birth of Jesus. But he comes
at Christmas. If you think it would feel silly to have kids, let's say,
draw stockings or Santa in February, this should tell you that Santa and
stockings are not winter symbols, but Christmas ones.
I think it is out of place for any organization serving youth to do
anything related to a particular holiday from the viewpoint of "This is
Our Holiday" unless it truly is. Ie, it's okay, certainly, for a Christian
Day Care to do Xmas stuff. It's okay for a US Boy Scout Troop to
participate in a Fourth of July parade. But it makes me deeply
uncomfortable when we assume that all kids participate in something that
is not necessarily theirs as if it was.
It was a-ok with me when the Korean-born moms at my daughter's school did
a big thing at the school for the Korean harvest festival (which, for our
Jewish readers, was the same day as Sukkot -- also based on the lunar
calendar). That all the kids did something put on by the Korean families
was a nice sharing. In the Camp Fire group I lead, we'll decorate the
Green family Christmas Tree at one of our meetings -- the Green family
thought it would be fun to have the kids participate in one of their
family traditions. This is also ok with me. The attitude is, "we do this
in our family, and we'd like show you how and why".
But the assumption that we all do Xmas when clearly there's a number of
people who aren't Christian in this country is insensitive. Sprinkling in
something about Chanuka only (a) inflates a minor Jewish holiday that just
happens to occur sometime near Xmas and (b) doesn't help the other
religious minorities -- there's as many Muslims in the US as Jews
nowadays, for example, and in our neighborhood, the biggest non-Christian
group is probably Buddhists, because of the number of Asian immigrants.
And surely, don't Christians, at least some of them, support this? They
don't want their sacred day cheapened by all the stuff not related to
Jesus and their scriptures, do they? Do they really want non-believers
unwillingly participating in their rituals?
Hope this sheds light, and not heat,
--
Claire Petersky (pete...@halcyon.com)
under construction: http://www.halcyon.com/petersky
S Maharaj Staff
Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
|
| I don't know what faith you profess, but most people who believe sincerely
| in another faith will NOT put up Christmas trees and wait for Santa Claus.
|
|
Just one data point to contradict this: I grew up in a devout Hindu
household: my father was even a Hindu pundit (ie "priest"). I don't
think you could find two more sincere Hindus than my parents. Yet we
always had a Christmas tree and presents from Santa, because my parents
were really into the fun of it all. (We had fun at Divali too, as do
many non-Hindus in my home country.)
Savi
--
Savitri Maharaj, Department of Computing and Mathematics,
Stirling University, Stirling FK9 4LA, Scotland
Office: 4B68, Cottrell Bldg Tel: +44 1786 467431 Fax: +44 1786 464551
Email: sa...@cs.stir.ac.uk URL: http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~sma/
Jim
>Bob <remov...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>As another parent of a non-Christian child I disagree that Christmas is a
>>>secular holiday. (WE don't celebrate the birth of Jesus, which IS what
>>>Christmas is primarily about.)
>
>> Christmas is about whatever you decide it's about.
>
>Indeed. And I believe it is about Jesus and Christianity, and therefore I
>am very troubled by the assumption that is made too often that trees and
>wreaths and Santa are totally secular and should therefore be acceptable
>to everyone.
Relax. Your assumptions aside, I assure you that *as* a Christian
parent I find trees, wreaths and Santa totally secular. Of course
I've been here before and have no doubt that you'll feel comfortable
telling me what my religious symbols are.
--
Jim
Bob
>
>Bob <remov...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>As another parent of a non-Christian child I disagree that Christmas is a
>>>secular holiday. (WE don't celebrate the birth of Jesus, which IS what
>>>Christmas is primarily about.)
>
>> Christmas is about whatever you decide it's about.
>
>Indeed. And I believe it is about Jesus and Christianity,
>
>
>I don't know what faith you profess, but most people who believe sincerely
>in another faith will NOT put up Christmas trees and wait for Santa Claus.
If you believe that Christmas is about Jesus, then it may makes sense
for you to object to your children being involved.
You should try to understand, however, that to people who see it as
a secular holiday, with only an arbitrary connection to Jesus, there
is little or no conflict.
Maybe if you read up on the origins of the holiday, you'll come to see
it as almost a joke on the Christians, rather than as a threat to your
faith.
If the Christians decided to start celebrating July 4 as the day baby
Jesus took his first steps, should non-Christian Americans avoid the
fireworks displays?
Avery Ke
view points there are about this holiday. To get back to the original
point, perhaps the daycare owners should get information on the families'
cultures and viewpoints.
In our (Christian) family, we try to emphasize the religious aspect, and
downplay the commercial, but it is an uphill battle.
It's hard to avoid Christmas when even cruise ships in Israel have
Christmas trees, but this is a good time of year to be sensitive to each
family's preferences, from the family who has nothing to do with
Christmas, to another who has a smorgesbord of traditions. After all,
"goodwill to all" is useful year-round, and perhaps the best way to show
our goodwill is to enjoy our own way of getting through the winter without
expecting or assuming that our way is a general tradition.
jmtcw,
Avery
Christopher Biow
> Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
>| I don't know what faith you profess, but most people who believe sincerely
>| in another faith will NOT put up Christmas trees and wait for Santa Claus.
>Just one data point to contradict this: I grew up in a devout Hindu
>household: my father was even a Hindu pundit (ie "priest"). I don't
>think you could find two more sincere Hindus than my parents. Yet we
>always had a Christmas tree and presents from Santa, because my parents
>were really into the fun of it all. (We had fun at Divali too, as do
>many non-Hindus in my home country.)
I've even seen a Hindu family altar with Mickey Mouse added by the
children, for good measure, just down and to the left of Ganesha! It's us
monotheists who tend to get our knickers most in a twist over the intrusion
of things associated with other religions.
We do have something of a legal and social consensus here in the US that
secular environments, particularly for children, should not communicate
explicitly religious messages. A secular preschool should not involve the
children in constructing a crucifix or a mezuzah. Part of that consensus,
as reflected unevenly in legal decisions on church/state issues, is that
there are both secular and religious components to Christmas, Easter and
Halloween. Santa and trees mostly fall on the secular side.
So I'd expect that a secular preschool would avoid crossing over this line,
such as with reference to Jesus' birth, unless in a fairly evenhanded
attempt to present religious holidays of its members or the local
population. For those whose religious sensitivities extend beyond this
consensus, their cases IMO should be treated as special requests,
equivalent to "Our religion prohibits our child from being present in the
room when rutabagas are served for lunch--could you accommodate this,
either by avoiding rutabagas or providing him with an alternative room in
which to eat a bagged lunch?" Absent such an advance request and its
approval by the school, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a secular
preschool to refrain from all use of secular Christmas symbols.
Claire Petersky <pete...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>But the assumption that we all do Xmas when clearly there's a number of
>people who aren't Christian in this country is insensitive.
Agreed, but reference to the secular elements of Christmas involves no such
assumption, any more than "How 'bout them 49'ers" assumes that we all
follow football. They're both merely common to more than 90% of the
population.
>Sprinkling in
>something about Chanuka only (a) inflates a minor Jewish holiday that just
>happens to occur sometime near Xmas...
That works both ways. Religiously, Christmas is a minor Christian holiday.
We don't even know the right date, except that it's probably not in
December. Feasts commemorating the incarnation, epiphany, death, and
resurrection are the ones that are theologically and pedagogically
important. Christmas has mostly provided the same excuse as the pagan feast
from which it was renamed, for general midwinter revelry. Perhaps a bit of
pedagogical value was salvaged by St. Francis in communicating to children
our doctrine of Full Humanity--the creche scene is a real, religious
expression, even if it can be faulted as a mishmash of Matthean and Lukan
infancy narratives.
>... and (b) doesn't help the other
>religious minorities -- there's as many Muslims in the US as Jews
>nowadays, for example...
I do see attempts to bring in Ramadan and Kwanzaa as well. The four
together probably do cover winter holidays celebrated by about 99% of US
families.
>, and in our neighborhood, the biggest non-Christian
>group is probably Buddhists, because of the number of Asian immigrants.
See <http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html> (very useful site!) for the
statistics, but Muslims are probably a tad higher and tend to be much more
insistent concerning faith-related holiday practice. And their approach to
monotheism and religious purity makes even that of Judaism vague by
comparison!
Naomi Lynne Pardue
Jim <ji...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>am very troubled by the assumption that is made too often that trees and
>>wreaths and Santa are totally secular and should therefore be acceptable
>>to everyone.
> Relax. Your assumptions aside, I assure you that *as* a Christian
> parent I find trees, wreaths and Santa totally secular. Of course
> I've been here before and have no doubt that you'll feel comfortable
> telling me what my religious symbols are.
They may be secular to YOU. They are religious to ME. Therefore, my
child's teachers (and my workplace ... I'm still giggling over the
poitsetta plant sent to me by our Moslem department chairman...)
should take OUR feelings into account and not force such
symbols on our family.
Naomi
hamilton
Que...@A.mail.hub.infoave.net (LADM) wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:24:00 EST, Naomi Lynne Pardue
> <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>
> >Naomi
> >(Who had a VERY hard time making her child's daycare teacher understand,
> >some years back, why a Christmas play about Santa and his reindeer and
> >songs about Christmas trees were troubling to me.)
>
> I think you need to explain this to me too because I don't understand
> it. Santa and his reindeer and Christmas trees are not Christian in
> origin.
>
>
> Lauré
for God's sake -- CHRIST mas as in Jesus Christ. To pretend that if it
is commercial or involves santa [that would be CHRISTIAN Saint Nick] of is
about decorating a CHRISTmas tree or singing CHRISTmas caroles that it
is not Christian and shouldn't be viewed as religious by non Christian
kids is either arrogant, dense or cruel.
Some non Christian families don't care -- but lots do. It doesn't take a
lot of effort to design holiday activities with some options for kids who
are not Christian and it does Christian kids no favor to allow them to
believe that everyone in the world is just like them and shares the
beliefs of their family.
When I was a scout leader, we made sure that we knew enough about the
girls in our troop not to inadvertantly put them in an awkward position
with holiday
based activities.
Naomi Lynne Pardue
>>I don't know what faith you profess, but most people who believe sincerely
>>in another faith will NOT put up Christmas trees and wait for Santa Claus.
> If you believe that Christmas is about Jesus, then it may makes sense
> for you to object to your children being involved.
> You should try to understand, however, that to people who see it as
> a secular holiday, with only an arbitrary connection to Jesus, there
> is little or no conflict.
And that is fine. THEY are more than welcome to celebrate the holiday in
THEIR homes, as they see fit. But the holiday and its symbols should not
be forced upon those who do NOT see it as a secular holiday.
I don't know what religion you are. But, as Claire noted, for American
Jews, it DOES get very tiresom to have to virtually barricade ourselves in
our homes for 6 weeks or so to avoid being constantly barraged with
Christmas stuff. Where I used to work, we always had an 'end of semester'
lunchean for the students. This 'end of semester lunchean' invovled Santa
Claus salt and pepper shakers, table cloths decorated with holly branch
prints, a Christmas tree, and Christmas music played in the background all
afternoon. (And when I asked one year if we could just have general,
non-holiday music, I was assured that nothing offensive would be played
... and the first song off the tape deck was "God Rest Ye Merry
Gentlemen." End of semester? Yeah, right.)
And I really don't think it is TERRIBLY unreasonable to expect a school
or daycare serving a varied population to avoid holiday celebrations. The
kids can celebrate their own holidays at home.
> Maybe if you read up on the origins of the holiday, you'll come to see
> it as almost a joke on the Christians, rather than as a threat to your
> faith.
I am very familiar with the origens of the holiday. And I am less
interseted in the 'origins' than in the meaning today. ANd the meaning
today is, regardless of when Jesus was actually born, a celebration of the
birth of Jesus. The fact that most otherwise-non-observent Christians, and
some people of other faith personally choose to adopt several aspects of
the holiday doesn't change the inherant meaning. (And, in response to
people who say "But Christmas trees aren't Christain, they are PAGAN", my
standard response is "Fine, but I'm not pagan either."
> If the Christians decided to start celebrating July 4 as the day baby
> Jesus took his first steps, should non-Christian Americans avoid the
> fireworks displays?
No, because TODAY, fireworks are shot off to celebrate our nation's
birthday. But if Christians decidided to add to the celebration ... oh...
hanging baby-shoes from their flag poles, *I* would not do that, and I
would expect that schools and other secular organizations would not decide
that shoes on flag-poles were suddenly a secular, American symbol.
(Hint, December 25th has NO particular meaning to Jew ... July 4th DOES
have a particular meaning to Jews who live in America.)
Naomi
MRSAC2538
and cutting out stars,circles,trees,and people and letting the child color them
and then put some string through the top and put them on the tree. You could
even get some glitter and put on them.
Hope that helps ya a little.
Have fun
Blessings
Amanda
Christopher Biow
>Que...@A.mail.hub.infoave.net (LADM) wrote:
>> I think you need to explain this to me too because I don't understand
>> it. Santa and his reindeer and Christmas trees are not Christian in
>> origin.
None of these are absolutely Christian, pagan, or secular. Each have some
explicitly Christian, religious aspects and history. Each of them have some
pagan history. Each of them have some secular aspects and history.
>for God's sake -- CHRIST mas as in Jesus Christ...
Etymology is not semantics. The etymology of the words HOLi[Y]-DAY and
GO[o]D-Be-withYE betrays their explicitly religious origins, but if a child
were taught to take offense at being wished "Goodbye and happy holidays",
he'd have a rather tough time functioning in the general society.
> To pretend that if it
>is commercial or involves santa [that would be CHRISTIAN Saint Nick] of is
>about decorating a CHRISTmas tree or singing CHRISTmas caroles that it
>is not Christian and shouldn't be viewed as religious by non Christian
>kids is either arrogant, dense or cruel.
As with very nearly everything in secular 'Murkin society, there are
religious aspects and influences. With a population that is over 90%
religious and a history that is even more deeply influenced by religion, we
and our children are going to be exposed to a great deal of religious
content in everything from coins to sports events. There is no clear, easy
dividing line.
>Some non Christian families don't care -- but lots do. It doesn't take a
>lot of effort to design holiday activities with some options for kids who
>are not Christian and it does Christian kids no favor to allow them to
>believe that everyone in the world is just like them and shares the
>beliefs of their family.
Neither does it make sense to produce an artificial, hermetically sealed
world for children, just because somebody's parent might object to
something. There can be a happy medium, here, between proselytization and
the banning of all vaguely religious content.
>When I was a scout leader, we made sure that we knew enough about the
>girls in our troop not to inadvertantly put them in an awkward position
>with holiday based activities.
That seems reasonable.
On the one hand, an effort to anticipate and respect sensitivities is
warranted. On the other, we should teach our children not to be
oversensitive and to accept all good wishes and holiday cheer as they are
intended. Put another way, we should endeavor not to give offense, within
reason. But neither should we walk around with highly sensitive antennae
extending for fifty feet in all directions, twitching in anguish at every
failure of others to properly genuflect as we pass.
Lynn GAzis-SAx
>Relax. Your assumptions aside, I assure you that *as* a Christian
>parent I find trees, wreaths and Santa totally secular. Of course
>I've been here before and have no doubt that you'll feel comfortable
>telling me what my religious symbols are.
>
I don't see it that way. *As* a Christian, I want to be able to decide for
myself what varieties of religious syncretism are acceptable to me, and what
ones I feel would compromise my Christian faith. I wouldn't appreciate a
Wiccan or a Hindu telling me to "relax" if I expressed a desire not to
participate. Whether the relatively secular trappings of another faith's
religious holiday come too close to violating "Thou shalt have no other god"
seems to me a question for Jews to settle for themselves. Just as it would be
for me to decide for myself, and not for someone who doesn't share my
religion, whether to consider astrology light-hearted entertainment not to be
taken seriously, or an unacceptable involvement in fortune-telling (I could
easily find Christians who would treat it either way).
Christopher Biow makes some reasonable points in his post about balancing
religious sensitivities. OK, so maybe a secular preschool shouldn't be
expected to entirely avoid the secular trappings of Christmas. But at least
one should listen, in making the accomodation, not just brush aside the
concern. In particular, I'd want to avoid situations which would put pressure
on a child to participate in something, however secularized, which might be
taken (or, at least, that you've already been told *would* be taken) as
unacceptable involvement in another religion - making ornaments, or singing
"Santa Claus is Coming to Town," or whatever. (On the other hand, having a
few different craft things to do, not all of them having anything to do with
Christmas or Chanukkah, might be reasonable.)
Lynn Gazis-Sax
Naomi Lynne Pardue
LADM <Que...@A.mail.hub.infoave.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:24:00 EST, Naomi Lynne Pardue
> <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>Naomi
>>(Who had a VERY hard time making her child's daycare teacher understand,
>>some years back, why a Christmas play about Santa and his reindeer and
>>songs about Christmas trees were troubling to me.)
> I think you need to explain this to me too because I don't understand
> it. Santa and his reindeer and Christmas trees are not Christian in
> origin.
They are not Christian in origin. (Though St. Nicolas was CERTAINLY
a Christian saint.) They ar Christian NOW, because they are symbols of
a CHRISTIAN holiday.
(The following year the play the preschool put on was perfect. It was
about a holiday celebrated by forest animals to pick their favorite tree.
It was very sweet, and except for the precense of a (non-decorated) fir
tree, was TOTALLY without Christmas references.)
Naomi
cu...@op.net
institutions as well as individuals should be more sensitive
about this issue. No, non-Christian kids should not be asked to,
say, perform in Christmas plays. However, these days, many
schools are doing "holiday plays" where the kids sing songs about
ramadan, hanukah, christmas, etc. etc. etc. Fine. Forced, but
fine. All the kids sing all the songs--my son came home the other
week and asked what we were doing for hanukah. I was perfectly
happy for the opp. to explain that "we're not jewish, but here's
what that holiday is about...."
However, is it so terrible to recognize that America is, at least
for now, a predominantly Christian country--culturally? (I'm not
a practicing anything, mind you.) So, should a non-Jew be
offended if bombarded by, I don't know, Passover celebrations if
she/he lived in Israel?
That said, the "problem" with the overdoing of Christmas may well
be as offensive to Christians as to non-Christians. I am
disgusted by seeing tinsel and wreaths on on Nov. 1, for example.
It isn't just non-Christians who want to barricade themselves
inside for 6 weeks! ho ho ho. Beth G.
Robin Merica
Naomi Lynne Pardue wrote:
>
> (The following year the play the preschool put on was perfect. It was about
> a holiday celebrated by forest animals to pick their favorite tree. It was
> very sweet, and except for the precense of a (non-decorated) fir tree, was
> TOTALLY without Christmas references.)
I'm not trying to be argumentative (or deliberately dense) here, but how is a
nondecorated fir tree a Christmas reference?
Robin
Jim
>In article <385609fc...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, ji...@ix.netcom.com (Jim) wrote:
>
>>Relax. Your assumptions aside, I assure you that *as* a Christian
>>parent I find trees, wreaths and Santa totally secular. Of course
>>I've been here before and have no doubt that you'll feel comfortable
>>telling me what my religious symbols are.
>>
>
>I don't see it that way. *As* a Christian, I want to be able to decide for
>myself what varieties of religious syncretism are acceptable to me, and what
>ones I feel would compromise my Christian faith.
But I agree. Regardless of what others want to tell me about my
religious symbols, Santa just isn't it. Ironically, among most that
share my faith, he's grown in stature to be considered up there with
the anti-Christ ;-)
Santa, trees and wreaths made in preschool are secular trappings of a
holiday - not my religious symbols.
> I wouldn't appreciate a
>Wiccan or a Hindu telling me to "relax" if I expressed a desire not to
>participate.
This isn't my point. It's simply that I wouldn't dare tell a Hindu
what their religious symbols are and it would be extremely arrogant of
me (and silly) to actually engage in an argument over them.
> OK, so maybe a secular preschool shouldn't be
>expected to entirely avoid the secular trappings of Christmas. But at least
>one should listen, in making the accomodation, not just brush aside the
>concern.
I agree that a secular preschool shouldn't ignore the biggest holiday
of the year practiced by over 150 million Americans. It also
shouldn't "ignore" strongly held holidays of any class member but find
some way to incorporate that into the class.
> In particular, I'd want to avoid situations which would put pressure
>on a child to participate in something, however secularized, which might be
>taken (or, at least, that you've already been told *would* be taken) as
>unacceptable involvement in another religion - making ornaments, or singing
>"Santa Claus is Coming to Town," or whatever.
I'll go out on a limb and speak for all Christians . . . we do not
worship or symbolize Santa, trees or wreaths. These simply are not
representative of our faith, but are a secular trapping of a holy day.
In contrast, manger scenes with a baby Jesus *are* religious.
I'm trying to be sensitive to other's faiths but can't see what's to
be gained in demonizing trees to young children. Personally I'd take
the time to explain a Jewish symbol made in school rather than work to
abolish its making . . . but then I don't go through life looking for
ways to be offended.
--
Jim
Naomi Lynne Pardue
Robin Merica <rme...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Sorry, I guess I didn't word that clearly enough. The tree was only a most
peripheral holiday reference, enough to make the play 'Christmasy' for
those who were looking for something for Christmas, while being fine for
the handful of students who in the preschool who were not Christian.
Naomi
cu...@op.net
1. I don't think it's fair to ask that no christian imagery
be used publicly, any more than that no other religion's
imagery be used. Finding the symbols of others' religions
disgusting or annoying would seem to me to indicate some
simple prejudice, and just because the prejudice is against
the dominant religion doesn't make it any less problematic.
2. The fact that we are all bombarded with everything
christmas for 6 weeks every fall/winter has nothing at all
to with religion, and everything to do with capitalism.
My son's preschool has a few summer camp sessions, each
with its own "theme," every summer. Last summer, one
was "Fun with Disney." Suffice it to say that he didn't
attend that one. This disney-as-our-shared-religion is as
offensive to me as the overdoing of Christmas.
3. *As a (cultural) christian* I don't see anything even
vaguely religious, or even "christmasy" about a lot of the
symbols we're bombarded with at this time of year. Frosty
the Snowman? This was once a "winter" holiday, which got
attached to a religious holiday--one that deserves as much
respect as Hanukah or any other religious holiday, I might
add. But many of the symbols still celebrate winter, not
the birth of Jesus. Why not allow yourself to see them that
way? Fewer opportunities for being offended is a good thing!
4. IMO, many of the "christmas lessons" are universal.
I have watched and listened to passover programs and been
uplifted and touched by some of them. I cannot imagine anyone
in the world avoiding, say, The Christmas Carol, just because
it is set during Christmas in a Christian country. Beth G.
Jim
>
>Jim <ji...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>>>am very troubled by the assumption that is made too often that trees and
>>>wreaths and Santa are totally secular and should therefore be acceptable
>>>to everyone.
>
>> Relax. Your assumptions aside, I assure you that *as* a Christian
>> parent I find trees, wreaths and Santa totally secular. Of course
>> I've been here before and have no doubt that you'll feel comfortable
>> telling me what my religious symbols are.
>
>They may be secular to YOU. They are religious to ME.
A paper Santa made by a preschooler is a religious symbol to you?!
Perhaps a branch of Judaism with which I'm not familiar ;-)
--
Jim
Naomi Lynne Pardue
Jim <ji...@nospam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> But I agree. Regardless of what others want to tell me about my
> religious symbols, Santa just isn't it. Ironically, among most that
> share my faith, he's grown in stature to be considered up there with
> the anti-Christ ;-)
Santa may not be a RELIGIOUS symbol as such. But he IS a symbol of
CHRISTMAS, which is a religious holiday celebrated by Christians. It is
NOT a symbol that has any meaning for ME, or for MY family.
> This isn't my point. It's simply that I wouldn't dare tell a Hindu
> what their religious symbols are and it would be extremely arrogant of
> me (and silly) to actually engage in an argument over them.
But you would certainly feel correct, surely, in objecting, if that Hindu
tried to tell you that you had to enjoy HIS religious symbolism, whether
you felt comfortable with it or not.
Look, I can go to a museum and look at, and enjoy beautiful pictures of
the madonna and child. In fact, on my bookshelf you will find many art
books containing such pictures. I can also go to a museum and look at, and
enjoy statues of Shiva. I would love to go to Europe and visit the
Cathedral at Chartres. I can go to concerts and listen to religious
music.
But I will NOT hang a madonna and child in my
living room, or a put a statue of Shiva on my mantel, or pray at Chartres.
And I should not have ANY of those things forced on me against my will,
nor should my child have them forced on her. At work today we had a
'holiday lunch'. And after the 5th repetition of "Silent Night" on the
boombox, I took my plate and went back to my desk.
I do find it ironic that, 10 1/2 months of the year, nobody would DREAM of
forcing this stuff on me, but from mid October to late December, it is
suddenly assumed that everyone in America is Christian. (Which may well
be WHY I find lovely pictures of the madonna and child enjoyable in July,
but can't bear to even go to the grocery store by about Dec. 15th, because
the 500th repetition of "Jingle Bell Rock" on the muzak makes me want
to scream.
> I agree that a secular preschool shouldn't ignore the biggest holiday
> of the year practiced by over 150 million Americans. It also
Why not? The fact that it is practiced by MOST Americans doesn't mean
that ALL Americans must be obligated to practice it, whether that practice
involves a midnight mass on Christmas eve ... or coloring pictures of
decorated trees in preschool. (Or, as Shaina just told me they are doing
in HER 2nd grade class, writing letters to Santa ... and yes, *I* will
be writing a note to her teacher Monday morning.)
> I'll go out on a limb and speak for all Christians . . . we do not
> worship or symbolize Santa, trees or wreaths. These simply are not
> representative of our faith, but are a secular trapping of a holy day.
> In contrast, manger scenes with a baby Jesus *are* religious.
But the point of SYMBOLS is that they have no INHERANT meaning, but mean
what they have come to mean. A big golden letter M doesn't MEAN
hamburgers, but 99% of Americans would understand that meaning. The star I
wear around my neck on a chain, and the cross that many Christians wear
around their necks have no inherant meaning, but I would not want to
wear a cross any more than I would expect you to wear a star. And
why do little dolls and toy animals arranged around a toy manger have any
more 'religious' meaning than a man in a red suit bringing gifts, or
a tree with lights and decorations on it? ALL of those are symbols of
a Christian holiday.
> I'm trying to be sensitive to other's faiths but can't see what's to
> be gained in demonizing trees to young children.
Nobody is trying to demonize trees. I AM saying that trees with
decorations on them, while 100% appropriate and correct for OTHER people's
faiths, are not part of OURS. And for a teacher to assume that they
are something that everyone should enjoy is just plain WRONG. If we want
to enjoy Christmas trees, we can drive down the street and look in other
people's windows. That is enough for us.
Christian children (and adults ... I'm remembering a co-worker of mine
basically saying that she HAS to have Christmas decorations up at work or
she can't get into the Christmas spirtir...) have ample opportunities
to enjoy THEIR holidays in their own homes, just as we enjoy OUR holidays
in OUR homes. In a few minutes I will be going to light candles for the
last night on Hanukkah. I NEVER for a moment felt the slighest need to
put a menorah on my desk at work, or felt troubled that Shaina did not
bring home a paper dreydl that she made in school.
Naomi
Ross Schennum
>
> On Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:24:00 EST, Naomi Lynne Pardue
> <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> >Naomi
> >(Who had a VERY hard time making her child's daycare teacher understand,
> >some years back, why a Christmas play about Santa and his reindeer and
> >songs about Christmas trees were troubling to me.)
>
> I think you need to explain this to me too because I don't understand
> it. Santa and his reindeer and Christmas trees are not Christian in
> origin.
>
>
>
Let's take a quick simple look at the Santa myth. On Christmas eve
Santa flies around the world and gives presents to all of the good
children. Generally only Christian children get presents, Jewish
children, Muslim children, Hindu children, and even the children of some
atheists do not. How is this myth supposed to look to those children
who Santa does not visit?? It explicitly says that they are not good.
For this reason, I believe that Santa has no place in a school for young
children unless all of the students celebrate christmas with gifts. The
Santa myth is about as exclusive as a story can get, and schools have a
responsability to make their students feel included in the school's
community. Promulgating a story that implies that some of the students
are "bad" because of their or their parent's religous beliefs or holiday
traditions is wrong.
Animzmirot
>As the parent of a non-Christian child, I appreciate the thought, but
>Christmas is actually a fairly secular holiday, so we don't mind having
>a cute ornament coming home from daycare.
Christmas is not a secular holiday. It is a holiday that celebrates the birth
of Jesus, and is the second most religious holiday in the Xtain calendar,
second only to Easter.
It has never been a secular holiday, it will never be a secular holiday.
I certainly do not know what your religion (if you practice one) is, but as the
parent of non-Xtain children I would be HIGHLY upset if my children were made
to celebrate in any way an Xtain holiday. It is against our religion to
celebrate any other religious practices.
Because it would be so against our religion, we circumvent the issue by sending
our children to a private day school for our religion.
Might I suggest that those folks who believe Xmas is a secular holiday please
get to the library to read about World Religions. Look up Xtainity and I'm SURE
you'll find that Xmas is, and always was, a religious holiday in the Xtain
religion. Please don't try to make it what it isn't. That insults those of us
trying to raise our non-Xtain children in our own religion.
Naomi Lynne Pardue
>>> Relax. Your assumptions aside, I assure you that *as* a Christian
>>> parent I find trees, wreaths and Santa totally secular. Of course
>>> I've been here before and have no doubt that you'll feel comfortable
>>> telling me what my religious symbols are.
>>
>>They may be secular to YOU. They are religious to ME.
> A paper Santa made by a preschooler is a religious symbol to you?!
> Perhaps a branch of Judaism with which I'm not familiar ;-)
And let me ask YOU this. What educational benefit, or social benefit is
there in having preschoolers color paper santas. What benefit is there
beyond, say, learning to color inside the lines ... a benefit that could
be JUST as easily attained by coloring flowers, trees, turkeys, or any
other image.
Frankly, I am MUCH more comfortable with having high schoolers study
medieval art (which generally is religious in tone) or singing masses than
I am with having preschoolers deal with Christmas imagry. Becauase there
is clear educational benefit in the former (you can't study history, much
less the history of art or music without dealing with certain religious
issues), and none in the latter. (Though obviously such study of art and
music should take place without any direct prostelytizing. i.e., the class
should discuss how medieval folks viewed religion, and why Raphael chose
to paint what he did, and NOT discuss why Jesus is the messiah.)
Naomi
Bob
>
>Let's take a quick simple look at the Santa myth. On Christmas eve
>Santa flies around the world and gives presents to all of the good
>children. Generally only Christian children get presents, Jewish
>children, Muslim children, Hindu children, and even the children of some
>atheists do not. How is this myth supposed to look to those children
>who Santa does not visit?? It explicitly says that they are not good.
>For this reason, I believe that Santa has no place in a school for young
>children unless all of the students celebrate christmas with gifts. The
>Santa myth is about as exclusive as a story can get, and schools have a
>responsability to make their students feel included in the school's
>community. Promulgating a story that implies that some of the students
>are "bad" because of their or their parent's religous beliefs or holiday
>traditions is wrong.
Unless you barricade yourself and your children away for 6 weeks every
year, they are going to be exposed to Santa Claus. You can let them
believe that he doesn't visit your home because they aren't good, or
you can tell them that Santa Claus is a lie and all of their friends
who believe in him are foolish and the adults who spread the lie are
being disrespectful, or you can explain that different people believe
different things and have different customs, and that we should try to
understand and be tolerant.
LADM
<cohens...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>LADM wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:24:00 EST, Naomi Lynne Pardue
>> <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >Naomi
>> >(Who had a VERY hard time making her child's daycare teacher understand,
>> >some years back, why a Christmas play about Santa and his reindeer and
>> >songs about Christmas trees were troubling to me.)
>>
>> I think you need to explain this to me too because I don't understand
>> it. Santa and his reindeer and Christmas trees are not Christian in
>> origin.
>>
>> Lauré
>>
>>
>Let's take a quick simple look at the Santa myth. On Christmas eve
>Santa flies around the world and gives presents to all of the good
>children. Generally only Christian children get presents, Jewish
>children, Muslim children, Hindu children, and even the children of some
>atheists do not. How is this myth supposed to look to those children
>who Santa does not visit?? It explicitly says that they are not good.
>For this reason, I believe that Santa has no place in a school for young
>children unless all of the students celebrate christmas with gifts. The
>Santa myth is about as exclusive as a story can get, and schools have a
>responsability to make their students feel included in the school's
>community. Promulgating a story that implies that some of the students
>are "bad" because of their or their parent's religous beliefs or holiday
>traditions is wrong.
I have to disagree on this. The Santa story I know says Santa gives
toys to *all* good little boys and girls, not just to Christian ones.
If other children don't get toys from Santa that is their parents
choice, not the story's. The *man* who was sainted by the Christian
church for his deeds, gave toys to *all* children (within his reach),
not just Christian children.
Lauré
Please post and e-mail your answers, I have a major
problem with my server picking up all messages and
this is the only way I can check.
So many interests, so little time.
All opinions welcome, even opposing opinions
LADM
Actually, the winter solstice, a pagan holiday, was appropriated by
the Christian church. They said to celebrate the birth of Christ,
which actually was not in the winter, actually in an effort to stop
them from practicing their religion. Maybe you should do a little
more research into the holiday. I was raised Christian, my husband is
not, we will have a tree, exchange presents and talk about Santa to
our son. My husband would like to refer to the day as Santa Claus
day. He obviously does not think Santa is a Christian symbol and
neither do I.
Noreen Cooper
: Let's take a quick simple look at the Santa myth. On Christmas eve
: Santa flies around the world and gives presents to all of the good
: children. Generally only Christian children get presents, Jewish
: children, Muslim children, Hindu children, and even the children of some
: atheists do not. How is this myth supposed to look to those children
: who Santa does not visit?? It explicitly says that they are not good.
: For this reason, I believe that Santa has no place in a school for young
: Santa myth is about as exclusive as a story can get, and schools have a
: community. Promulgating a story that implies that some of the students
: traditions is wrong.
Santa is a mitzvah; he goes around doing good deeds. There's a
retrospective on Christianity in LIFE this month, marking it as *the* most
popular religion in the world today with over 22,000 different
denominations. In fact, one of the most remarkable events of the
millennium, according to some Christian scholars, is that Christianity
even survived, not that it has thrived.
So how did this happen? Good marketing. Christian missionaries blended
traditions to appeal to potential converts. Santa is just another
marketing coup that happens to add a certain magic that children are more
apt to appreciate.
I don't stress the "naughty or nice" part of Santa. Santa serves a higher
purpose as a doer of good deeds who brings gifts anonymously to little
children who believe in all-things-magical. I see Santa as a symbol of
charity and good will, and you don't have to be Christian to appreciate
him.
My father was raised Orthodox Jew and my mother was Catholic. My father
never converted to Christianity but he enjoyed Christmas and perpetuating
the Santa myth and taking first pick out of his kids' Halloween treat bag.
I know two inter-faith couples and both of them have Christmas trees and
send their kids trick-or-treating. Why? Because it is *FUN* to believe
in Santa, give presents, get candy from your neighbors; and I really
wonder sometimes what drives some Jewish hard-liners in rejecting what I
see as larger cultural symbols (such as Santa and Halloween) by demonizing
those same symbols in a "It's-Us-Against-Them" kind of mentality.
I really question Naomi's quest to rid Santa from public schools. Is that
going to keep her daughter away from the Santa myth? I doubt it. It is
only going to piss off the Christian majority and cause ill will. I'm not
Catholic but I have really admired the Pope. His most recent adjudication
is for Christians to put away their ill will toward the Jews. I do not
see the good will in ridding the schools of Christian imagery. Now, I
know many people, both Christian and Jew, who would love to see Christmas
decommercialized. I'd rather see a joint effort between the two religions
with a mass movement to picket stores who put decorations up the day after
Halloween than efforts to abolish all things Christian in public schools.
By doing so, you will just make more enemies than you would want.
Noreen Cooper Heavlin
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> 1. I don't think it's fair to ask that no christian imagery
> be used publicly, any more than that no other religion's
> imagery be used. Finding the symbols of others' religions
> disgusting
I don't think I said they were disgusting.
or annoying would seem to me to indicate some
> simple prejudice, and just because the prejudice is against
> the dominant religion doesn't make it any less problematic.
They are annoying because they are being forced upon those who do not wish
to partake. I honestly don't see how it is 'prejudiced' of me to not want
to have to listen to Christmas music on my lunch hour, see Santa Claus
when I go to the drug store to get a prescription filled, and, in general,
be unable to escape the constant barrage for several months out of every
year. Again, if YOU want to decorate YOUR home with Christmas decorations,
that is YOUR choice, and I will not object. But when it becomes a public
thing (esp. in settings where there cannot possibly be any 'commercial'
motivation), it is troubling to me.
> 2. The fact that we are all bombarded with everything
> christmas for 6 weeks every fall/winter has nothing at all
> to with religion, and everything to do with capitalism.
For the stores yes. I don't work in a store. I work for a state-run
organization, and there is no reason to have decorations. (And I would
have much rather seen a bonus in my paycheck than a pointsettia plant from
the department head....)
> My son's preschool has a few summer camp sessions, each
> with its own "theme," every summer. Last summer, one
> was "Fun with Disney." Suffice it to say that he didn't
> attend that one. This disney-as-our-shared-religion is as
> offensive to me as the overdoing of Christmas.
Uhhh.... last I checked, Disney was NOT a religion. If you don't enjoy it,
that's fine, but it has NOTHING to do with religion.
> 3. *As a (cultural) christian* I don't see anything even
> vaguely religious, or even "christmasy" about a lot of the
> symbols we're bombarded with at this time of year. Frosty
> the Snowman?
Frosty is fine. Snowmen are purely winter symbols. Candy canes are fine. I
think somebody noted that a good test was "Is this something you would
feel comfortable doing/displaying/seeing at some other time of year?" (And
I'm not talkinga bout people who just don't get around to taking their
Christmas decorations down until March...) Snowmen and candy canes are
fine. Tinsel and evergreen wreaths and decorated trees and fat men in red
suits have a VERY clear connection with that certain time of year, whether
or not they are outwardly 'religious.' (And I will note that, as you say
yourself, you are a cultural Christian. That makes your take on these
things VERY different from those of us who are not Christian in any way.)
This was once a "winter" holiday, which got
> attached to a religious holiday--one that deserves as much
> respect as Hanukah or any other religious holiday, I might
> add. But many of the symbols still celebrate winter, not
> the birth of Jesus. Why not allow yourself to see them that
> way? Fewer opportunities for being offended is a good thing!
Then why don't WE put up tinsel and trees on Hanukkah? If they are purely
winter symbols, they should have been adopted by ALL the winter holidays,
and they were not. And why are they done on Christmas only, and not on
Martin Luther King Day, or Valentines Day, or Purim?
> 4. IMO, many of the "christmas lessons" are universal.
> I have watched and listened to passover programs and been
> uplifted and touched by some of them. I cannot imagine anyone
> in the world avoiding, say, The Christmas Carol, just because
> it is set during Christmas in a Christian country. Beth G.
Of course being good and kind and generous is not a Christmas thing only,
and is definitely not a Christian thing only.
But then, *I* try to be good and kind and generous all year around, not
only during December.
And, as noted, we are back to CHOICE. I may well CHOOSE to see a well done
production of "A Christmas Carol", just as I will CHOOSE to look at
religious art or listen to religious music. But it should not be forced
upon me. (And, frankly, "A Christmas Carol" is, to me NOT a Christmas
thing in the way that, say, Santa Claus is. It is, as you note, a story
that happens to be set at Christmas time, involving characters who are
Christian. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. That is what Dickens
chose for his story. I will just as happily read that as I will read
stories set in ANY culture of which I am not a part.)
Naomi
Marion Baumgarten
> Marion Baumgarten <mari...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> I hope there are no non-Christian children at your daycare.
> >>
> >> Naomi
>
> > Or maybe it's a daycare at a church or a home daycare that is explictly
> > religious. Though I'm not sure a popsicle stick picture frame with your
> > child's picture in it counts as specifically Christian.
>
> Yes, of course it may be. If it is, then the project is not problematic.
> If it is a general daycare, then it would be considerate to take into
> account the needs of all the children there.
>
> Naomi
> (Who had a VERY hard time making her child's daycare teacher understand,
> some years back, why a Christmas play about Santa and his reindeer and
> songs about Christmas trees were troubling to me.)
I don't understand why you think a private daycare or preschool, which
most are, can't do what you define as a "Christian things", If you don't
like the cirriculum, send your child elsewhere. Maybe I'm looking for a
daycare where they have plays about Santa and reindeer. Do I lose that
choice because you don't like it?
--
Marion Betor Baumgarten- Mother to die Wunderkinder
-Martha (11) Peter (8)
St. John's College, Annapolis, 1982
Animzmirot
>Christmas is about whatever you decide it's about. I was in Christmas
>programs in school. We've always had a Christmas tree and lights on
>the house. We waited for Santa Claus. We gave gifts to friends and
>family and to charity (even the year that most of our toys came from
>charity), but I am not a Christian.
Bob, you don't say what religion you are, but regardless, you appear to not
understand the basic tenants of Xtianity if you actually believe that Xmas is
NOT a Xtain holiday. Xmas celebrates the birth of Jesus. Regardless of how your
family celebrated this day, that doesn't mean that other non-Xtain families who
are comfortable in their own religious practices should copy you. Your family
sounds as if it didn't really have the knowledge to understand what Xmas was
really about. Unfortunately, that happens a lot in families that are ignorant
of their own religious practices. I certainly see it with marginal Jewish
families, who have never been taught the religion, and know little about the
culture. It is easy to claim Xmas is a secular holiday if you don't KNOW what
it is about or about your own religious beliefs.
But in the Jewish religion, it is absolutely forbidden celebrate a holiday like
Xmas.
As to your comment on Frosty the Snowman, I DO object to the story, which is
again based on Xmas. I don't allow my children to watch ANY of the 'winter
holiday' specials on TV because they are all based upon Xmas themes.
I'm very clear what my religion accepts and does not. Are you as clear about
your own religion, whatever it may be?
>
>The Biblical story that has been twisted and bent to fit this winter
>holiday (and provide its current name) is just another Yuletide custom
>that some families buy into and others don't, like hanging stockings,
>caroling, etc. It's not at all "the reason for the season".
>
>We don't believe that snowmen come to life, but we don't object to
>the story of Frosty the Snowman.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Animzmirot
This is one of those classic posts, that if one substituted another ethnic
group, say African American, for non-Xtains, would show the complete lack of
understanding of the problem.
Chris, it's apparent that you don't understand what the non-Xtains are talking
about. You can't understand because you're not in their shoes. Just like I
can't understand the tragedy of the Armenians because I'm not Armenian. But the
difference is, I don't speak for the Armenians, and I'd appreciate it if you
didn't speak for the non-Xtains either. I think they're doing a fine job of
standing up for themselves without your comments, especially when they haven't
been accurate or particularly empathetic.
Banty
>
> Naomi said:
> >
> >Bob <remov...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >>>As another parent of a non-Christian child I disagree that Christmas is a
> >>>secular holiday. (WE don't celebrate the birth of Jesus, which IS what
> >>>Christmas is primarily about.)
> >
> >> Christmas is about whatever you decide it's about.
> >
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >I don't know what faith you profess, but most people who believe sincerely
> >in another faith will NOT put up Christmas trees and wait for Santa Claus.
>
> If you believe that Christmas is about Jesus, then it may makes sense
> for you to object to your children being involved.
>
> You should try to understand, however, that to people who see it as
> a secular holiday, with only an arbitrary connection to Jesus, there
> is little or no conflict.
>
> it as almost a joke on the Christians, rather than as a threat to your
> faith.
>
As secular person, I celebrate Christmas in the secular way, and I see
the Christianization of the Yule as something of an assault on the
traditions I came from. The old faiths were suppressed violently by an
imported religion from the Middle East and southern Europe, and the old
traditions either wiped out and reviled, or coopted. Christmas (as well
as Easter) is a coopted celebration. I do resent the "reason for the
season" propaganda. For someone of yet another faith to reject the
midwinter solstice holiday because of the associations that Christians
have overlaid upon it is yet another layer of insult!
So how's that for another opinion :-)
Really, I think the only useful way to look at Christmas is that it is a
major celebration in the American culture, and it's lubricious, at least
impractical to either expect it to be purified to some narrow religious
component, or to ask the entire culture to water it down, wash it out,
and apologize for it merely because it may remind some that those who
want to "purify" it ever had anything to do with it.
Cheers,
Banty
Naomi Lynne Pardue
>>> Relax. Your assumptions aside, I assure you that *as* a Christian
>>> parent I find trees, wreaths and Santa totally secular. Of course
>>> I've been here before and have no doubt that you'll feel comfortable
>>> telling me what my religious symbols are.
>>
>>They may be secular to YOU. They are religious to ME.
> A paper Santa made by a preschooler is a religious symbol to you?!
> Perhaps a branch of Judaism with which I'm not familiar ;-)
Yes, the branch of Judaism (all of them) which don't use Christian saints,
including St. Nicholas.
Naomi
Rosalie B.
each classroom each morning. This consisted of a pledge to the flag
and a Bible reading. Each student had to take a turn leading the
exercises. We were instructed to read only from the old testament,
and that was the extent of any attempt at inclusiveness. (Most people
chose to read from the Psalms, and almost everyone read the shortest
one. I didn't.)
I had my consciousness raised when I went to summer language school as
a freshman in college. Many of the students were from Philadelphia
and NYC and were Jewish. When it was suggested at some point that we
sing, what they eventually suggested were songs like Jingle Bells. It
felt really weird to sing Christmas songs in the middle of July in
Maine. That was the first time I realized that the Christmas stuff
really had no significance or attachments for them - just some songs
that they thought everyone would know.
While the US does not have a state religion like Israel, it was
founded by various sorts of Christians, and has a Christian basis in
its tradition. The majority of the citizens are Christian. Because
of the current political correctness thing (and I personally deplore
Kwanza because I think it is a made-up holiday with little historical
basis), our schools in general have even less instruction in various
religions than they used to.
So part of the problem with the differing views expressed here is that
many Christians really have no idea what other religions are, and how
any overt Christmas celebrations could be offensive to them.
Plus they themselves have very strong emotional attachments to the
songs and celebrations associated with Christmas. They just love to
sing carols, and are decorate Christmas trees, and shop for presents,
and fail to see that such a happy time, that they have so much time
and energy invested in, could be a bummer for someone else.
While a lot of the statements in this thread are perfectly valid and
correct (Christmas WAS originally a pagan holiday- starting to
decorate stores for Christmas before Halloween IS definitely too much
commercialism, etc.), they have nothing to do with the situation
really.
What is necessary is for the non-Christians to try to educate without
being too confrontational in order that the Christians can (in true
Christian spirit) try to understand and accommodate the non-Christian
without having to get too defensive because they perceive that they
are being attacked.
This is going to be hard for the non-Christian because they are
outnumbered, and they have to keep explaining it over and over again.
It's not fair. But if you make people defensive and antagonistic you
are not going to get anywhere.
grandma Rosalie
Melody
<snip>
>
> Yes, the branch of Judaism (all of them) which don't use Christian saints,
> including St. Nicholas.
>
> Naomi
So I'm assuming you have a problem with paper hearts, green clovers,
leprechans, and rainbows with pots of gold as well?
Just because Christians consider a person a saint doesn't mean that you
should regard them as "Christian symbols". That would be like me
refusing to look at candles because I'm not Jewish.
MY local drug store has NO Santa Claus & has just as many Chanukah &
Kwanza items as Christmas things. If it offends you so greatly perhaps
you should go elsewhere?
People all over the world have different cultures & celebrations. What's
wrong with children learing about ALL of them & deciding for themselves
what they wish to believe & observe?? Santa Claus is not a "bad" person,
he repesents the spirit of giving, is something wrong with giving???!?!
I somehow doubt that your daughter's teacher is forcing her to color
Santa's against her will. I imagine that if your daughter politely
explains that she doesn't celebrate Christmas that her teacher would
find something else for her to work on.
I cannot imagine how you can possibly consider a plant (Poinsettia) as
being a religous symbol either?!?!
Lots of people LIKE decorating for the holidays, I doubt anyone would
have a problem with YOUR decorations if you chose to put them up, would
they?
I'm a board member on my Homeowners Assoc. & at our last meeting it was
brought up that we had wreath's at the entrances to our subdivision
although we have Jewish people living here...so...we went out & bought
Chanukah decorations as well. NOT ONE person in our neighborhood had a
problem with that!
I guess I just don't understand why people can't LEARN from each others
cultures, no one is asking you to celebrate anything you don't want to.
So, really, what's the problem?
Preschool is optional & it's up to you where you wish to send your
child, if you don't like this one then send her to a different place!
And I agree that it would be nice not to have to see things we don't
want to see... I'd prefer not to see half the things I have to look at
on a daily basis... but does it hurt anything? No.
You're actually incorrect about candy canes, as they ARE intended to be
a Christian symbol.
"Unquestionably, its beginnings are Christian. The shape is
intentionally that of a shepherd's crook, and this tasty treat's most
likely origin was as a reward for children who had learned their
prayers."
A symbol only means what you read in to it or BELIEVE it means. Period.
Melody
cu...@op.net
> But in the Jewish religion, it is absolutely forbidden
> celebrate a holiday like Xmas. As to your comment on Frosty
> the Snowman, I DO object to the story, which is again based
> on Xmas. I don't allow my children to watch ANY of the 'winter
> holiday' specials on TV because they are all based upon Xmas
> themes.
OK; here's the crux of my problem with this issue. I agree
entirely that public schools should not be having kids celebrate
Christmas in any way, e.g., by having them write letters to
Santa. But having your kids *watch* X-mas specials is not
the same as celebrating the holiday. Not that your or my kids
need to watch them, but the "hiding away" mentality is
worrisome to me. I've watched and listened (on radio) to
Passover specials. Does that mean I'm celebrating the holiday?
Hardly! I'm broadening my horizons (and enjoying myself, with
the better programs). And my kids are learning something (and
enjoying themselves, with the better programs). Now,
admittedly, Jews don't need to try to learn about Xianity--
it's everywhere and unavoidable, as the dominant religion and
tradition. But to take a "see no evil" approach to other
religions and their traditions teaches our kids all the wrong
lessons, IMO. Beth G.
cu...@op.net
>
> > 2. The fact that we are all bombarded with everything
> > christmas for 6 weeks every fall/winter has nothing at all
> > to with religion, and everything to do with capitalism.
>
> For the stores yes. I don't work in a store. I work for a
> state-run organization, and there is no reason to have
> decorations. (And I would have much rather seen a bonus in
> my paycheck than a pointsettia plant from
> the department head....)
What I was getting at was that the religious celebration of
the holiday does not require the kind of over-the-top and
6-week-long buying and decrating spree that the entire
culture indulges in. Business requires it.
> > My son's preschool has a few summer camp sessions, each
> > with its own "theme," every summer. Last summer, one
> > was "Fun with Disney." Suffice it to say that he didn't
> > attend that one. This disney-as-our-shared-religion is as
> > offensive to me as the overdoing of Christmas.
>
> Uhhh.... last I checked, Disney was NOT a religion. If you
> don't enjoy it, that's fine, but it has NOTHING to do with
> religion.
But it has the kind of worship I associate with religion, and
my experience is that people make a lot of assumptions about
the fact that we all "buy in," just as you're experiencing
people assuming that even tho, you're Jewish, you're buying
into X-mas. Around here, there is an assumption that you will
get your kids to Disney once in their childhoods. It's not
"Do you want to go there?" It's "when will you guys go?"
or "How will we afford to get them there?" It's like a trip
to Mecca. My point? Our culture "worships" many things that
are not religious. Christmas as we know it is one of those
things. Is it at heart a religious holiday? of course.
That's the best of it, perhaps the part that you would be
able to relate to as a religious person yourself, and
as a good person. The rest of it is just cultural,
and reflects some of more unseemly aspects of our
culture, IMO. Beth G.
Naomi Lynne Pardue
Marion Baumgarten <mari...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>> Yes, of course it may be. If it is, then the project is not problematic.
>> If it is a general daycare, then it would be considerate to take into
>> account the needs of all the children there.
>>
>> Naomi
> I don't understand why you think a private daycare or preschool, which
> most are, can't do what you define as a "Christian things", If you don't
> like the cirriculum, send your child elsewhere.
If every daycare has them, I don't have much choice, do I?
Maybe I'm looking for a
> daycare where they have plays about Santa and reindeer. Do I lose that
> choice because you don't like it?
Most communities have Christian daycares. Most do not have Jewish ones.
Those families that feel a strong need to have Christian observence
in their daycares usually have options.
Naomi
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:26:10 EST, animz...@aol.comspamfree
> (Animzmirot) wrote:
>>Might I suggest that those folks who believe Xmas is a secular holiday please
>>get to the library to read about World Religions. Look up Xtainity and I'm SURE
>>you'll find that Xmas is, and always was, a religious holiday in the Xtain
>>religion. Please don't try to make it what it isn't. That insults those of us
>>trying to raise our non-Xtain children in our own religion.
>>
> Actually, the winter solstice, a pagan holiday, was appropriated by
> the Christian church. They said to celebrate the birth of Christ,
> which actually was not in the winter, actually in an effort to stop
> them from practicing their religion. Maybe you should do a little
> more research into the holiday. I was raised Christian, my husband is
> not, we will have a tree, exchange presents and talk about Santa to
> our son. My husband would like to refer to the day as Santa Claus
> day. He obviously does not think Santa is a Christian symbol and
> neither do I.
The time of year may have been appropriated by Christianity for the
celebration of the birth of Jesus. However, the holiday itself is a
Christian one.
(And I am VERY sure that the vast majority of people who celebrate the
'secular' version of Christmas aren't Pagan's either ... so to say that
it's ok since it isn't 'really' Christian' makes little sense. And, of
course, since *I* am not a Pagan, there is no reason for ME to be
putting up 'solstice trees' either....
Naomi
lc...@my-deja.com
> I don't understand why you think a private daycare or preschool, which
> most are, can't do what you define as a "Christian things", If you
don't
> like the cirriculum, send your child elsewhere. Maybe I'm looking for
a
> daycare where they have plays about Santa and reindeer. Do I lose that
> choice because you don't like it?
>
> --
> Marion Betor Baumgarten- Mother to die Wunderkinder
> -Martha (11) Peter (8)
> St. John's College, Annapolis, 1982
Marion-
I can't believe I'm posting to this thread, but I really have to
reply to this one.
If you really want your child to go to a daycare where they have
plays about Santa and reindeer, there are plenty of Christian
religously-affiliated daycares that you can send him/her. No one
will complain about Santa there. You will never lose the choice of
having your child surrounded by the trappings of Christianity in
this country with a Christian majority.
Lots of private schools loudly advertise themselves as "secular" in
order to attract non-Christian families. They then deluge everyone
with the trappings of Christmas and profess confusion when these
families object to these supposedly "secular" celebrations. If they
were honest, they would tell non-Christian families that "we celebrate
Christmas (and maybe Easter etc..) in our school" before they enrolled.
A good precaution for non-Christian families is to ask supposedly
"secular" schools how they mark major Christian holidays before they
enroll their children if they are senstitive to this issue. Christian
families (like Marion's) who want to make sure that Christian holidays
are celebrated in school can do the same. Marion- you only have
the risk of Christmas not being celebrated in school if you send your
child to a Jewish or
Muslim preschool, or if you don't ask this question of a very
strictly secular school. C'mon, Christmas is just not gonna go away
in America because minorities are sensitive about it- have no fear!
Lisa
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Cissy . Thorpe
On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Melody wrote:
> I cannot imagine how you can possibly consider a plant (Poinsettia) as
> being a religous symbol either?!?!
If you know the origin of the plant, and the story surrounding it, it is
real easy to consider the plant a religious symbol.
Quick synopsis: boy going to Christmas Mass has no gift for the baby
Jesus (Mexican, Catholic) and picks a nice looking plant. Sometime
between the picking and the presenting the flower miraculously turns a
beautiful crimson color and is the centerpiece of the gift offerings.
Sounds religious to me.
> I guess I just don't understand why people can't LEARN from each others
> cultures, no one is asking you to celebrate anything you don't want to.
> So, really, what's the problem?
>
> A symbol only means what you read in to it or BELIEVE it means. Period.
>
> Melody
...best to take your own advise and learn about what it means. I cannot
agree with the meaning being individually read into a custom or belief.
There are reasons, and to learn those reasons would serve us all well.
I don't often agree with Naomi, but in this case, I do. It is a very "in
your face" time of year.
My 2p
Cissy
MarjiG
<npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
>The fact that it is practiced by MOST Americans doesn't mean
>that ALL Americans must be obligated to practice it, whether that practice
>involves a midnight mass on Christmas eve ... or coloring pictures of
>decorated trees in preschool. (Or, as Shaina just told me they are doing
>in HER 2nd grade class, writing letters to Santa ...
Why is it so wrong for your kids to color pictures of decorated trees, when
mine color pictures of menorahs and Kwanzaa kinara? This seems to be a bit
one-sided. The kids who celebrate Christmas have to be taught about every other
celebration out there, in the name of diversity, but at the same time you're
telling me you don't want your kids to learn about my celebration.
-Marjorie
Mom to Sarah (8) and Carys (5.5)
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>As secular person, I celebrate Christmas in the secular way, and I see
>the Christianization of the Yule as something of an assault on the
>traditions I came from.
And how do you feel about the probability that your traditions borrowed
those traditions from yet other religions?
[]
>Christmas (as well as Easter) is a coopted celebration.
No, there are some parts of the celebration of Christmas and Easter
that were coopted from other sources.
>I do resent the "reason for the season" propaganda.
I haven't seen much of it but I don't recall it being difficult
to decide the reason for the season is to love our fellows.
If you are feeling particularly cynical you can look into the making
of Christmas into a major celebration in the 1800s.
>Cheers,
>Banty
Christopher Biow
animz...@aol.comspamfree (Animzmirot) wrote:
>Christopher Biow <bi...@ezmort.com> wrote:
>>hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton) wrote:
>>>When I was a scout leader, we made sure that we knew enough about the
>>>girls in our troop not to inadvertantly put them in an awkward position
>>>with holiday based activities.
>>That seems reasonable.
>>On the one hand, an effort to anticipate and respect sensitivities is
>>warranted. On the other, we should teach our children not to be
>>oversensitive and to accept all good wishes and holiday cheer as they are
>>intended.
This I'll reiterate, as a matter of basic etiquette in which children
should be instructed. It's one thing to reply to a "Merry Christmas" with
"Happy Hannakuh", "Have a good day", or even perhaps "Thanks, but we don't
celebrate Christmas." It's quite another to take umbrage.
>>Put another way, we should endeavor not to give offense, within
>>reason. But neither should we walk around with highly sensitive antennae
>>extending for fifty feet in all directions, twitching in anguish at every
>>failure of others to properly genuflect as we pass.
>This is one of those classic posts, that if one substituted another ethnic
>group, say African American, for non-Xtains, would show the complete lack of
>understanding of the problem.
Let's try it. We'll substitute Kwanzaa for Christmas.
If I were to object strenuously to any usage of symbols such as the Kinara
and Mazao in my child's preschool, due to their derivation from Jewish and
African religious traditions that had been synthesized into Kwanzaa, I
would be displaying oversensitivity, to the point of sheer insensitivity.
If my religious beliefs indeed demanded isolation of my children from such
influence of the general culture, the onus would be upon me to isolate
them. I might expect strongly negative reactions if I complained to my
private preschool's administration about these symbols.
In government-related US environments, we have a standard, created largely
in modern case law, that sets a boundary far short of Naomi's example of
Santa and reindeer. Particularly where children are in a situation of being
captive subjects, such as in public schools, explicitly religious
depictions, such as manger scenes, may not be imposed by the teachers.
But Christmas itself remains a federable holiday. General Christmas
symbology, such as trees, wreaths, presents, and Santa are usually
permitted. The Supreme Court's series of decisions in the 1990s,
culminating in the overturning of the RFRA, have established that the
Constitution does not require, and the US Congress may not even mandate,
special consideration of religious sensitivities of individual children.
In non-government environments, the First Amendment's reach essentially
allows free play. In our context of a secular public school administration,
they may set virtually any standard they want, barring certain types of
religious discrimination. In practice, the standard typically gets drawn
close to that for government-sponsored environments, and I consider this a
good and reasonable solution.
>Chris, it's apparent that you don't understand what the non-Xtains are talking
>about. You can't understand because you're not in their shoes...
This, of course, applies to all sides. I make no claim of perfect
objectivity as a basis for some sort of argument from my own authority.
Rather, I prefer to discuss what can objectively be understood. You'll note
that I've refrained from ad_hominem speculation about anyone's motivation
or rationale for advocacy on this issue. I'm interested only in finding a
reasonable standard for secular environments.
>...But the difference is, I don't speak for the Armenians, and I'd appreciate
>it if you didn't speak for the non-Xtains either.
I do not presume to speak for non-Christians or even for Christians. I'll
not accuse those asking for the suppression of Santa of presuming to speak
for Christians. I have not stated whether your particular flavor of Judaism
should or should not object to its children's exposure to Santa, wreaths,
or the Great Chocolate Bunny at preschool. I have suggested what I feel is
a reasonable middle ground for US children.
I have suggested that if your religious beliefs requires the isolation of
your children from such symbols at preschool, you should state that
peculiar requirement in advance of their enrollment and should expect that
you'd probably get a negative answer. Legally, you would be in the same
class as a Fundamentalist Christian parent who wanted his child isolated
from mention of the common English days of the week, due to their naming
after the names of Norse gods (e.g. Tiw, Woden, Thor, Freya). Practically,
you are well in that same direction.
>I think they're doing a fine job of
>standing up for themselves without your comments, especially when they haven't
>been accurate ...
If you find a comment of mine inaccurate, please state specifically what it
is and how it is inaccurate. One of the great virtues of Usenet is that
I've learned a lot by having netters refute inaccuracies that I've posted.
I've also learned to disregard vague claims of inaccuracy or insensitivity.
>...or particularly empathetic.
I'm sorry if you find my posts less than empathetic. I don't necessarily
feel empathy toward some opinions that I regard as extreme and unreasonable
attempts to make our secular society conform to someone's religious
sensitivity.
--
The bunny, the bunny, oh, I ate the bunny
I didn't eat my soup or my bread, just the bunny
I didn't eat my salad, I didn't eat my steak
I had too much candy, got a tummy ache!
Elizabeth Gardner
<npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> Marion Baumgarten <mari...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> >> Yes, of course it may be. If it is, then the project is not problematic.
> >> If it is a general daycare, then it would be considerate to take into
> >> account the needs of all the children there.
> >>
> >> Naomi
>
> > I don't understand why you think a private daycare or preschool, which
> > most are, can't do what you define as a "Christian things", If you don't
> > like the cirriculum, send your child elsewhere.
>
> If every daycare has them, I don't have much choice, do I?
>
> Maybe I'm looking for a
> > daycare where they have plays about Santa and reindeer. Do I lose that
> > choice because you don't like it?
>
> Most communities have Christian daycares. Most do not have Jewish ones.
> Those families that feel a strong need to have Christian observence
> in their daycares usually have options.
>
Our Montessori preschool/daycare doesn't celebrate Christmas per se, but
does have a decorated tree for their winter "celebration of light."
They've made ornaments that are snowmen, gingerbread men, and little
trees, and also did a very elaborate decorated tree for our local zoo that
featured animals, flags, and other symbols for every continent of the
world.
They're going to attend a production of "Babes in Toyland" next week, and
their teacher has been reading the story aloud.
The whole thing is outwardly rather Christmas-y in aesthetics, but there's
no religious or Santa content that I've been able to determine. Hard to
say how a non-Christian family might interpret it. As far as I know,
there are none in my daughter's class, which kind of surprised me. Maybe
if there were, the approach would have been different.
They don't do Halloween either--instead, they have a "harvest festival"
party (not to be confused with the full Thanksgiving dinner they have for
lunch on the day before TG).
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> <snip>
>>
>> Yes, the branch of Judaism (all of them) which don't use Christian saints,
>> including St. Nicholas.
>>
>> Naomi
> So I'm assuming you have a problem with paper hearts, green clovers,
> leprechans, and rainbows with pots of gold as well?
Hmmm... interesting ideas. I WILL say that Valentines day HAS become a
completely secular holiday, with no religious content at all. (Unlike
Christmas which is STILL a religious holiday for most people who choose
to observe it.) And yes, I do think that schools have better things to do
with their time than have kids hand out valentines.
And as for St. Patricks day, I don't make a point to wear green on that
day. I don't buy cards for my friends and relatives. Schools do little
or nothing about it. VERY different issue. (And clovers grow all year
round, NOT just on March 17th.)
> Just because Christians consider a person a saint doesn't mean that you
> should regard them as "Christian symbols". That would be like me
> refusing to look at candles because I'm not Jewish.
Look again at the issue at hand. Candles are used all year around by
many different religious .. and non-religious groups. Candles, in and
of themselves, have no relgiious meaning. Santa is pretty much restricted
to Christmas, and the weeks immediately preceeding it. Surely you'd find
it pretty odd if your child's school/daycare started doing Santa Claus art
projects, or stores had Santa out, in ... oh ... April?
> MY local drug store has NO Santa Claus & has just as many Chanukah &
> Kwanza items as Christmas things. If it offends you so greatly perhaps
> you should go elsewhere?
Are we talking about items for sale, or items decorating the store itself?
I am NOT offended by Christmas items being sold for those who choose to
buy them!
> People all over the world have different cultures & celebrations. What's
> wrong with children learing about ALL of them & deciding for themselves
> what they wish to believe & observe?? Santa Claus is not a "bad" person,
> he repesents the spirit of giving, is something wrong with giving???!?!
Nothing wrong with LEARNING about them. However, are you REALLY saying
that kids need to be coloring Santas in order to learn how Christians
celebrate a particular holiday that happens to fall in December?
> I somehow doubt that your daughter's teacher is forcing her to color
> Santa's against her will. I imagine that if your daughter politely
> explains that she doesn't celebrate Christmas that her teacher would
> find something else for her to work on.
And you really expect 3 year olds to speak up about such things?
> I cannot imagine how you can possibly consider a plant (Poinsettia) as
> being a religous symbol either?!?!
Do stores sell pointsettias in July? Didn't think so? (It is certainly a
borderline holiday symbol, and I was not offended by it. However, it
was not 100% appropriate eitehr.)
> Lots of people LIKE decorating for the holidays, I doubt anyone would
> have a problem with YOUR decorations if you chose to put them up, would
> they?
No. They wouldn't. As long as I was decorating my personal workspace with
my personal possessions. And I don't' object to co-workers decorating
THEIR personal workspaces with THEIR personal possessions.
> I guess I just don't understand why people can't LEARN from each others
> cultures, no one is asking you to celebrate anything you don't want to.
> So, really, what's the problem?
They ARE asking me to celebrate things I don't want to celebrate.
And I assure you that I know a great deal about Christianity, and will not
be learning anything new by looking at a Christmas tree. (I assure you too
that I already know MUCH more about Christianity than the vast majoirty of
Christians know about Judaism or Islam or Hinduism. When I gave my annual
"Hannukah talk" to Shaina's Brownie troop, the adults present knew almost
NOTHING about Hanukkah, and even less about Judaism. (One of them couldn't
understand how Jews could not believe Jesus was the Messiah.) If this is
TRULY supposed to be an educational issue, then surely it should be MORE
important to be educating the majority groups about the minorities,
because the minorities cannot HELP learning about the majority.
> Preschool is optional & it's up to you where you wish to send your
> child, if you don't like this one then send her to a different place!
Yes, I guess we could go hungry so I could be a SAH mom so my daughter
would not be forced to celebrate Christmas....
> You're actually incorrect about candy canes, as they ARE intended to be
> a Christian symbol.
> "Unquestionably, its beginnings are Christian. The shape is
> intentionally that of a shepherd's crook, and this tasty treat's most
> likely origin was as a reward for children who had learned their
> prayers."
It is an example of a religious symbol that HAS become secular. (Hint...
you can buy candy canes all year round. Nobody thinks it is strange to eat
candy canes in July.)
> A symbol only means what you read in to it or BELIEVE it means. Period.
And *I* believe that Santa Claus is a religious symbol of a religion I do
not profess. So why am I wrong?
Naomi
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> This I'll reiterate, as a matter of basic etiquette in which children
> should be instructed. It's one thing to reply to a "Merry Christmas" with
> "Happy Hannakuh", "Have a good day", or even perhaps "Thanks, but we don't
> celebrate Christmas." It's quite another to take umbrage.
I agree. And I would never tell my child to be rude, nor would I be rude
myself. (In fact, quite the reverse. In Real Life, I'm perhaps too much of
a doormat. When, at our "Holiday" luncheon last Friday, somebody's boombox
was playing endless repetitions of "Silent Night", my supervisor asked me
if I wanted her to see to it that the music was changed. I said no, that
it was ok, and I simply ate my meal quickly, then returned to my desk.)
> Let's try it. We'll substitute Kwanzaa for Christmas.
> If I were to object strenuously to any usage of symbols such as the Kinara
> and Mazao in my child's preschool, due to their derivation from Jewish and
> African religious traditions that had been synthesized into Kwanzaa, I
> would be displaying oversensitivity, to the point of sheer insensitivity.
> If my religious beliefs indeed demanded isolation of my children from such
> influence of the general culture, the onus would be upon me to isolate
> them. I might expect strongly negative reactions if I complained to my
> private preschool's administration about these symbols.
Actually, this is an excellent example. As a caucasion American in a city
with a low African-American population, I know VERY little about Kwanzaa.
I would not be at ALL upset if my child's school included a study of
Kwanzaa. (And, in fact, I think it does.) I would also be very interested
in learning about Kwanzaa myself. However, learning about the celebration
(which I will note is, I believe, a purely secular one, and does not
fall under the catagory of separating church and state and, as a cultural
rather than religious celebration, is far less troubling to me that
Christmas.) is not the same thing as participating in it. And simply
putting up symbols of Kwanzaa is unlikely to educate me in any way about
the celebration except to teach me certain basics ... like that it
involves candles and that many families like to dress in African-style
clothing.
> In government-related US environments, we have a standard, created largely
> in modern case law, that sets a boundary far short of Naomi's example of
> Santa and reindeer. Particularly where children are in a situation of being
> captive subjects, such as in public schools, explicitly religious
> depictions, such as manger scenes, may not be imposed by the teachers.
> But Christmas itself remains a federable holiday. General Christmas
> symbology, such as trees, wreaths, presents, and Santa are usually
> permitted. The Supreme Court's series of decisions in the 1990s,
> culminating in the overturning of the RFRA, have established that the
> Constitution does not require, and the US Congress may not even mandate,
> special consideration of religious sensitivities of individual children.
All very true. However, the fact that something is LEGAL does not mean
that it is thoughtful or correct. It is LEGAL for me to ... oh ... drape
my house in glow-in-the-dark purple fabric with yellow polka dots and
play bag-pipe music out of open windows 24 hours a day. (Just as long
as the decible levels are not high enough to affect noise-regulations.)
However, I should not be at ALL surprised if my neighbors took offense at
my behavior.
> This, of course, applies to all sides. I make no claim of perfect
> objectivity as a basis for some sort of argument from my own authority.
> Rather, I prefer to discuss what can objectively be understood. You'll note
> that I've refrained from ad_hominem speculation about anyone's motivation
> or rationale for advocacy on this issue. I'm interested only in finding a
> reasonable standard for secular environments.
Given your name, I am making the assumption that you are Christian, at
least by birth and culture. I will gently note that, laws aside, your
birth and cultural background makes it very diffucult for you to
understand what those of use WITHOUT that birth and cultural background
experience this time of year.
> I do not presume to speak for non-Christians or even for Christians. I'll
> not accuse those asking for the suppression of Santa of presuming to speak
> for Christians. I have not stated whether your particular flavor of Judaism
> should or should not object to its children's exposure to Santa, wreaths,
> or the Great Chocolate Bunny at preschool. I have suggested what I feel is
> a reasonable middle ground for US children.
And *I* feel that an even more reasonable middle ground is to eliminate
ALL religious symbols from secular environments. If a Christian family
wants to celebrate Christmas, why can they not do it in their own home?
(Seeing as I have to take unpaid days off from work to celebrate MY
holidays, but have no choice but to sit at home and twiddle my thumbs
every Christmas, it's hardly an unreasonable request.)
> I'm sorry if you find my posts less than empathetic. I don't necessarily
> feel empathy toward some opinions that I regard as extreme and unreasonable
> attempts to make our secular society conform to someone's religious
> sensitivity.
Again, please explain to me how Christmas symbols are an inherant part of
a 'secular' society?
Naomi
Banty
>
> Banty <ba...@banet.net> writes:
>
> >As secular person, I celebrate Christmas in the secular way, and I see
> >the Christianization of the Yule as something of an assault on the
> >traditions I came from.
>
> And how do you feel about the probability that your traditions borrowed
> those traditions from yet other religions?
>
I have no problem whatsoever with it. There are few pure traditions.
> []
> >Christmas (as well as Easter) is a coopted celebration.
>
> No, there are some parts of the celebration of Christmas and Easter
> that were coopted from other sources.
And so, as you see here, for many inextricably associated with the
Christian beliefs.
>
> >I do resent the "reason for the season" propaganda.
>
> I haven't seen much of it but I don't recall it being difficult
> to decide the reason for the season is to love our fellows.
When I've seen it, it's to emphasize the Jesus birthday thing.
>
> If you are feeling particularly cynical you can look into the making
> of Christmas into a major celebration in the 1800s.
That wouldn't surprise me.
Banty
John Hascall
>Marion Baumgarten <mari...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>> Yes, of course it may be. If it is, then the project is not problematic.
>>> If it is a general daycare, then it would be considerate to take into
>>> account the needs of all the children there.
>> I don't understand why you think a private daycare or preschool, which
>> most are, can't do what you define as a "Christian things", If you don't
>> like the cirriculum, send your child elsewhere.
>If every daycare has them, I don't have much choice, do I?
Of course you have a choice. In fact, you have several.
Two which come immediately to mind are:
1) start one
2) relocate to a community with one
> Maybe I'm looking for a
>> daycare where they have plays about Santa and reindeer. Do I lose that
>> choice because you don't like it?
>Most communities have Christian daycares. Most do not have Jewish ones.
>Those families that feel a strong need to have Christian observence
>in their daycares usually have options.
First, the two sets: (Christian) and (Jewish) do not encompass everyone.
They don't even encompass everyone who likes plays about Santa and reindeer.
Second, you stepped around the question -- does your
objection to "plays about Santa and reindeer" mean
others lose that choice? Because if it can get
blanded-out of one, it can get blanded-out of all.
I, for one, am thrilled that our son's (public) school
has the cojones to say we won't go down that road of
lowest common denominator blandness. So he learns
about Christmas and Chanukkah and Ramadan and Kwanza
and ...
As I see it, the more cultures he learns about the better.
There are six billion people in this world, and the less
time you spend thinking they're all like me, the better.
John
--
John Hascall (__) Shut up, be happy.
Software Engineer, ,------(oo) The conveniences you demanded
Acropolis Project Manager, / |Moo U|\/ are now mandatory.
ISU Computation Center * ||----|| -- Jello Biafra
Naomi Lynne Pardue
Ummmm.... if your kids are coloring equal numbers of Hanukkah pictures and
Christmas pictures, I will be very surprised indeed. FAR more common is to
either ignore the other holidays completely, include one 'token' Hanukkah
item (usually without explanation), or have a Jewish parent come in to
give the annual talk about the 'other' holidays. (Talks that have little
impact. At least 2 kids in Shaina's brownie troop, when asked to tell me
ONE thing they knew about Hanukkah, said "It's the Jewish Christmas" or
"It's what Jews celebrate instead of Christmas" (And two other girls knew
nothing at all.)
And as, I've said, I am not at ALL opposed to children learning about
other faiths and other types of celebrations in school. However, I
seriously doubt that these kinds of crafts projects have, or are INTENDED
to have, any educational meaning at all. They are simply "It's Christmas
time, so we need to do Christmas things and ... oh oh ... I think there's
a Jewish Kid in the class this year, so I'd better find a picture of a
dreydl that they can color so I can prove that I'm being inclusive."
If the educational lesson is 'coloring in the lines' there are many ways
to teach that lesson that do not involve holiday pictures. And if the
educational lesson is 'learning about other faiths and celebrations' there
are MANY ways to teach that lesson that are far more educational and
appropriate.
I have never attempted to shield Shaina from other religions. She is free
to watch all the holiday specials she wants on tv. We drive down the
street and see other homes decked out for the holidays. She does NOT need
to learn this stuff by writing letters to Santa Claus in a public school
class! (Or playing a flying reindeer in a preschool play.)
Naomi
MarjiG
around the world, like my 2nd grader's class.) I am a Christian, and I still
think the school has crossed the line of what should be taught in school. For
one thing, they are using way too much time doing it.
(Just for the record, from a religious point of view Christmas is actually 3rd
most important holiday celebrated by most Christian denominations. Pentacost
has more religious significance, but not nearly the shopping.)
In any case, today she learned about Christmas in Germany, and came home
singing, "Oh Cannon-Bomb! Oh Cannon-Bomb"
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
<cth...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> wrote:
>> I cannot imagine how you can possibly consider a plant (Poinsettia) as
>> being a religous symbol either?!?!
>
>real easy to consider the plant a religious symbol.
>
>Quick synopsis: boy going to Christmas Mass has no gift for the baby
>Jesus (Mexican, Catholic) and picks a nice looking plant. Sometime
>between the picking and the presenting the flower miraculously turns a
>beautiful crimson color and is the centerpiece of the gift offerings.
Scratch out, umm, bread, wine, fish, woodworking (nooooo), and just
about everything from life then.
Get real, folks. Next thing you want to outlaw NFL football because of
the obvious Christians-against-the-lions implications.
Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos http://home.att.net/~strianta/
At home in Carmel, IN stri...@worldnet.att.net
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
<npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>And *I* feel that an even more reasonable middle ground is to eliminate
>ALL religious symbols from secular environments. If a Christian family
>wants to celebrate Christmas, why can they not do it in their own home?
>(Seeing as I have to take unpaid days off from work to celebrate MY
>holidays, but have no choice but to sit at home and twiddle my thumbs
>every Christmas, it's hardly an unreasonable request.)
Just like I do every Eastern Orthodox Easter, all Greek holidays, etc.
Maybe my wife would like to celebrate New Year around the end of
March, too (Persian New Year). Maybe we should ALL switch to their
calendar (no Y2K for another 600 years :-) :-) :-)
MarjiG
<npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
>Ummmm.... if your kids are coloring equal numbers of Hanukkah pictures and
>Christmas pictures, I will be very surprised indeed. FAR more common is to
>either ignore the other holidays completely, include one 'token' Hanukkah
>item (usually without explanation), or have a Jewish parent come in to
>give the annual talk about the 'other' holidays. (Talks that have little
>impact. At least 2 kids in Shaina's brownie troop, when asked to tell me
>ONE thing they knew about Hanukkah, said "It's the Jewish Christmas" or
>"It's what Jews celebrate instead of Christmas" (And two other girls knew
>nothing at all.)
I don't have all her papers handy, but I know she did a logic problem based on
the Kwanzaa kinara where she had to figure out which candle was which. I know
that her spelling list included Hannukkah and Kwanzaa and I think menorah and
kinara. And she seems to have acquired a dreydl and knows how the game is
played.
Oh, and today they lit a Hannukkah candle, a Kwanzaa candle and an Advent
candle, and "connected them all together" (Sort of equal-opportunity
offensiveness, I guess.) I am fairly sure Ramadan never got a mention.
I'm a little surprised that you can't find a pre-school that doesn't do
holidays, Sarah went to one that didn't mention them at all. Carys went to a
Christian pre-school, so naturally Christian holidays were celebrated there.
>I have never attempted to shield Shaina from other religions. She is free
>to watch all the holiday specials she wants on tv. We drive down the
>street and see other homes decked out for the holidays. She does NOT need
>to learn this stuff by writing letters to Santa Claus in a public school
>class! (Or playing a flying reindeer in a preschool play.)
>
I'm curious, how did your 2nd-grader handle the letters to Santa? I know mine
is perfectly willing to voice her opinion on such things. Was she
allowed/offered the choice to write to someone else? How would you feel if the
assignment was to write to say, Cinderella? Or to write to the actual
Nicholas, without considering the saint part. He was a real person, after all,
and not even all Christians recognise Sainthood as defined by the Catholic
church.
Marion Baumgarten
> Marion Baumgarten <mari...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> >> Yes, of course it may be. If it is, then the project is not problematic.
> >> If it is a general daycare, then it would be considerate to take into
> >> account the needs of all the children there.
> >>
> >> Naomi
>
> > I don't understand why you think a private daycare or preschool, which
> > most are, can't do what you define as a "Christian things", If you don't
> > like the cirriculum, send your child elsewhere.
>
> If every daycare has them, I don't have much choice, do I?
>
No one promised you it would be easy. Sorry, that's not my job. You can
start your own daycare, hire an in home provider or arrange you and your
husband's schedules so that you don't need daycare.
I'm on the board of the only licensed daycare in my village. It's a not
for profit institution. We get no tax money. Our job is to serve the
community. We do a "all holidays theme" with reindeer and Santa and
Hanukah and Kwanzaa and whatever else anybody wants to bring in.
> Maybe I'm looking for a
> > daycare where they have plays about Santa and reindeer. Do I lose that
> > choice because you don't like it?
>
> Most communities have Christian daycares. Most do not have Jewish ones.
> Those families that feel a strong need to have Christian observence
> in their daycares usually have options.
>
> Naomi
Sorry, there's no Christian daycare right in my area. (They are
Christian preschools in the next town, but no daycares). There is a
Jewish preschool. Should I have the right to make them have a Santa?
Does your daughter's school celebrate children's birthdays? Did her
daycare? Did you know that Jehovah's witnesses don't celebrate any
holidays? Even birthdays?
You daughter's school sponsors a brownie troop? Did you know that
Wisconsin synod Lutheran children aren't permitted to join scouts?
We have freedom of religion in this country. We also have separation of
church and state. That means the state cannot advocate any particular
religion. It doesn't mean you have the right never to be exposed to
anything you don't personally like. If you had a coworker who wore a
cross and you had to look at ot when you spoke to her, is that being
forced to participate in her religion? I decorate my workspace at work
with my own money (consisting of a garland and a 99 cent Christmas
stocking.) Unless I am dropping religious tracts on your desk, I don't
consider that forcing my religion.
I am 100% against children being forced to pray or participate in
religious observances in public school because it is a public school, an
arm of the state. Outside of that, however, we all have the right to
practice our religion and express our culture, even if it is offensive
to others. In Egypt, most of the Christian minority are shopkeepers.
It's customary to have an icon (Christian religious picture) behind the
counter. Now Muslim brotherhood members pay a little visit to the
storekeeper and "suggest" that it might not be prudent to have the icon
displayed. I think of that when I go to our local liquor store, run by
Arabs and see their icon behind the counter. Maybe in there home country
they aren't allowed to express their religion. I walk in Lincoln park in
Chiacgo and on nice day it's not unusual for me to see Orthodox jews,
Muslims women in either a scarf or even a full chador, Sikh men in
turbans, Hindi women in saris, Mennonites and sometimes even Amish. All
these people are displaying visible signs of their faith. A lot of it I
don't agree with, but I am always glad that in America, we have more
freedom of religion than anyplace else in the world.
Marion Baumgarten
>
>
> Let's try it. We'll substitute Kwanzaa for Christmas.
>
> If I were to object strenuously to any usage of symbols such as the Kinara
> and Mazao in my child's preschool, due to their derivation from Jewish and
> African religious traditions that had been synthesized into Kwanzaa, I
> would be displaying oversensitivity, to the point of sheer insensitivity.
> If my religious beliefs indeed demanded isolation of my children from such
> influence of the general culture, the onus would be upon me to isolate
> them. I might expect strongly negative reactions if I complained to my
> private preschool's administration about these symbols.
>
Does anyone have any statistics about what percentage of African
Americans actually celebrate Kwanzaa? My teeth were really set on edge
last year when my son, who attends a largely white public school came
home telling me that Christmas is for white people and Kwanzaa is for
black people. And this is from a kid who has an black African priest!
(Uhm Peter what do think Father Mensah celebrates? And all those black
kids in your Sunday school class and that you're in choir with?).
Tonight at my daughter's school winter concert we had an
African-American spiritual and that was introduced as being in honor of
Kwanzaa. Funny, I thought traditional African-American spirituals were
Christian in origin.
Shannon and Mike
I
>
> Lots of private schools loudly advertise themselves as "secular" in
> order to attract non-Christian families. They then deluge everyone
> with the trappings of Christmas and profess confusion when these
> families object to these supposedly "secular" celebrations. If they
> were honest, they would tell non-Christian families that "we celebrate
> Christmas (and maybe Easter etc..) in our school" before they enrolled.
Indeed. My mom taught at such a school (K-12). The city's other prominent
private schools were specifially associated with churches (Catholic and
Episopal, I think). She figures that they wanted to "market" themselves as
secular to attract all the non-Christians, and the school did actually have
a sizeable Jewish population, and a few Muslims. They handed out Bibles to
all 5th graders. She got flak for suggesting that in a Dante-related
project, the students not reserve a circle of hell for non-Christans, since
that would include some classmates. The school had a speaker at honors day
who told the students not to listen if the teachers told them things
contrary to the Bible (evolution, basically).
A private school certainly has every right to do these things, but it
strikes me (and it struck her, which is why she was glad to leave) as
deceptive to do these things and NOT present itself as a Christian school.
And as a non-Christian parent, I would not have been happy had my child been
in a school like that. OTOH, if I thought the educational advantages were
worth it, I'd consider putting my child in a Christian school. I just want
to know what I'm in for.
--
Shannon
sha...@home.com
remove "nospam" when replying
Lynn GAzis-SAx
[snipped]
>more research into the holiday. I was raised Christian, my husband is
>not, we will have a tree, exchange presents and talk about Santa to
>our son. My husband would like to refer to the day as Santa Claus
>day. He obviously does not think Santa is a Christian symbol and
>neither do I.
>
>
>
Santa is *both* a Christian and a secular symbol, or a
semi-Christian/semi-secular symbol, if you will. He is Christian, relative
to, say, winter scenes of snowmen (which where I live should probably be
replaced by winter scenes of people going out to the backyard to pick some
grapefruit :-)) because:
a) Santa and his accompanying mythology are used by most Christians in this
culture in close temporal conjunction with one of the most widely celebrated
Christian holidays. (Sure, no one worships him, but no one worships the bits
of ash that certain Christian denominations put on their heads on Ash
Wednesday, either.) A significant number of non-Christians, on the other
hand, have nothing to do with him.
b) He bears the name of a Christian saint (although bearing rather little
resemblance to the real life saint).
He's secular, relative to, say, creche scenes, because:
a) The thing he is supposed to represent (a sort of generalized spirit of
generosity) isn't so specifically Christian as the thing that the creches are
supposed to represent (the Incarnation).
b) His current "season" only imperfectly coincides with the
traditional Christian calendar (in which Advent starts four Sundays before
Christmas, by which time the Santa decorations have long been up, and
Christmas lasts from December 25 till January 6).
c) Many people with little or no belief in Christianity, for a rather long
time, have nevertheless been doing Santa.
I don't imagine we'll reach agreement any time soon as to exactly to what
degree Santa is religious, and to what degree secular. In any case, there's
lots of other factors to consider, in how public schools or professedly
secular preschools (only the former under a legal obligation, but both perhaps
with some concerns about tact) should approach seasonal activities. There's
several other questions one could ask:
1) What educational function is served by this activity? My high school
chorus (in a school with a sizeable Jewish population) sang various pieces
which included some religious pieces (e.g. parts of the Mass set to music) by
classical composers; at around Christmas time we sang some music from Handel's
Messiah. This is a lot more explicitly religious than the average Santa
scene, but it also arguably has educational value.
2) To what extent are people being asked to actively do things which may be
contrary to family religious beliefs? A school which, say, put up Halloween
decorations which included witches might get complaints either from Wiccans
who feel the decorations stereotype them, or from Christians who think they
smack of the occult, but a school art class which hands each child a witch to
color could be fairly sure of asking at least one child to do something the
family would find religiously inappropriate; this seems to me worse, somehow,
than being surrounded by decorations other people have put up. Of course, if
a religion is offended by something which ought to be part of a standard
education (such as, say, the teaching of evolution), then one doesn't remove
it from the curriculum, but the hypothetical "color in a witch for Halloween"
assignment could easily be replaced.
3) Could the assignment be equally well replaced by a more inclusive one? It
seems to me that a writing assignment of "Tell about a holiday celebration
which your family does" would give just as much opportunity for harnessing
children's excitement over Christmas as Shaina's second grade class's "Let's
all write a letter to Santa Claus" assignment, without requiring Shaina to
give a recognition to Santa which goes counter to her family's beliefs.
Lynn Gazis-Sax
Melody
"Cissy . Thorpe" wrote:
>
> On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Melody wrote:
>
> > I cannot imagine how you can possibly consider a plant (Poinsettia) as
> > being a religous symbol either?!?!
>
> If you know the origin of the plant, and the story surrounding it, it is
> real easy to consider the plant a religious symbol.
>
> Quick synopsis: boy going to Christmas Mass has no gift for the baby
> Jesus (Mexican, Catholic) and picks a nice looking plant. Sometime
> between the picking and the presenting the flower miraculously turns a
> beautiful crimson color and is the centerpiece of the gift offerings.
>
> Sounds religious to me.
It's a PLANT! If you look at everything mentioned in the bible as a
religous symbol then you're going to have some serious problems!
I have never HEARD that story in my ENTIRE LIFE. Mexican Catholics
aren't exactly in the majority in the U.S. either yanno.
>
> > I guess I just don't understand why people can't LEARN from each others
> > cultures, no one is asking you to celebrate anything you don't want to.
> > So, really, what's the problem?
> >
> > A symbol only means what you read in to it or BELIEVE it means. Period.
> >
> > Melody
>
> ...best to take your own advise and learn about what it means. I cannot
> agree with the meaning being individually read into a custom or belief.
> There are reasons, and to learn those reasons would serve us all well.
>
Nothing means anything if you don't want it to.
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> In article <83446u$1l8$2...@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>, Naomi Lynne Pardue
> <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
> I don't have all her papers handy, but I know she did a logic problem based on
> the Kwanzaa kinara where she had to figure out which candle was which. I know
> that her spelling list included Hannukkah and Kwanzaa and I think menorah and
> kinara. And she seems to have acquired a dreydl and knows how the game is
> played.
> Oh, and today they lit a Hannukkah candle, a Kwanzaa candle and an Advent
> candle, and "connected them all together" (Sort of equal-opportunity
> offensiveness, I guess.) I am fairly sure Ramadan never got a mention.
Probably because either there are no Moslem children in the school, or
because Ramadan moves in relation to our calendar, and NEXT year it will
fall in November.
> I'm a little surprised that you can't find a pre-school that doesn't do
> holidays, Sarah went to one that didn't mention them at all. Carys went to a
> Christian pre-school, so naturally Christian holidays were celebrated there.
Perhaps I could have if I'd hunted hard enough, but PROBABLY not, and I
probably could not have found one that met my other needs at the time.
(Part time program, affordable rates, openings at the time, certified
teachers, etc.)
Now, I don't know where you live. But from what you write, it sounds like
you live in a community that it quite multicultural. Ours is not. Except
for the kids of some foreign students, it is MOSTLY (I'd guess 95%+) white
and Christian. Our synagogue did discuss starting a preschool program, but
there weren't enough kids to make it finacially feasible.
>>I have never attempted to shield Shaina from other religions. She is free
>>to watch all the holiday specials she wants on tv. We drive down the
>>street and see other homes decked out for the holidays. She does NOT need
>>to learn this stuff by writing letters to Santa Claus in a public school
>>class! (Or playing a flying reindeer in a preschool play.)
>>
> I'm curious, how did your 2nd-grader handle the letters to Santa? I know mine
> is perfectly willing to voice her opinion on such things. Was she
> allowed/offered the choice to write to someone else? How would you feel if the
> assignment was to write to say, Cinderella? Or to write to the actual
> Nicholas, without considering the saint part. He was a real person, after all,
> and not even all Christians recognise Sainthood as defined by the Catholic
> church.
To be honest, I'm not sure. I suspect she wrote the letter and that was
that. (She was sick yesterday when I wrote the letter for her to bring to
her teacher, so I'm not sure yet what teacher's response will be.) I will
ask her tonight.
Naomi
Naomi Lynne Pardue
>>> I don't understand why you think a private daycare or preschool, which
>>> most are, can't do what you define as a "Christian things", If you don't
>>> like the cirriculum, send your child elsewhere.
>>If every daycare has them, I don't have much choice, do I?
> Of course you have a choice. In fact, you have several.
> Two which come immediately to mind are:
> 1) start one
Neither my education nor my interest extends to running daycares.
> 2) relocate to a community with one
Ah, so I'm supposed to MOVE to avoid this kind of thing... Uhh... last
I checked, the entire United States had something in its constitution
that is generally interpreted to mean 'freedom of religion.'
>> Maybe I'm looking for a
>>> daycare where they have plays about Santa and reindeer. Do I lose that
>>> choice because you don't like it?
>>Most communities have Christian daycares. Most do not have Jewish ones.
>>Those families that feel a strong need to have Christian observence
>>in their daycares usually have options.
> First, the two sets: (Christian) and (Jewish) do not encompass everyone.
Very true. How about "of a religion which feels that Christian
celebrations in daycares are of vital importance" and "of religions that
do not."
> They don't even encompass everyone who likes plays about Santa and reindeer.
Perhaps I'm not understanding why a non-Christian family would insist on
having a daycare which included Christmas plays in its curriculum. Do
explain why this is something that would be important to many
non-Christian families?
> Second, you stepped around the question -- does your
> objection to "plays about Santa and reindeer" mean
> others lose that choice? Because if it can get
> blanded-out of one, it can get blanded-out of all.
No. The choice is to enroll the child in a CHRISTIAN daycare, which would
very likely have Christmas plays, or to enroll the child in a SECULAR
daycare, which would not have them.
> I, for one, am thrilled that our son's (public) school
> has the cojones to say we won't go down that road of
> lowest common denominator blandness. So he learns
> about Christmas and Chanukkah and Ramadan and Kwanza
> and ...
Again, LEARNING about these things is very different from particating
in the celebrations/observences.
If your child's public school decided that the
students would have to 'learn about' Ramadan by fasting for the next
month, would you be ok with that?
Naomi
Elizabeth Gardner
stri...@worldnet.att.net (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:13:37 EST, Naomi Lynne Pardue
> <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> >And *I* feel that an even more reasonable middle ground is to eliminate
> >ALL religious symbols from secular environments. If a Christian family
> >wants to celebrate Christmas, why can they not do it in their own home?
> >(Seeing as I have to take unpaid days off from work to celebrate MY
> >holidays, but have no choice but to sit at home and twiddle my thumbs
> >every Christmas, it's hardly an unreasonable request.)
>
> Just like I do every Eastern Orthodox Easter, all Greek holidays, etc.
> Maybe my wife would like to celebrate New Year around the end of
> March, too (Persian New Year). Maybe we should ALL switch to their
> calendar (no Y2K for another 600 years :-) :-) :-)
>
If you think it's bad in the U.S., you should try living in a country
where there is a state Christian church. When we lived in Sweden, it
seemed like every other week there was some religious occasion requiring
everything to shut down, even though relatively few people actually
practice Christianity. I think that in comparison, having one federal
holiday geared to the vast-majority religion and culture isn't so bad,
considering that everything would pretty much grind to a halt anyway. The
consensus among my Jewish friends is that Christmas is a terrific day to
go to the movies.
I'm curious, Naomi--would you feel the same way about Christmas
observations in preschool if, when spring rolled around, they gave the
same star treatment to Passover, a Jewish holiday of actual significance?
Not that it's likely to happen except in places with a very dense Jewish
population, but I'm just wondering.
Spiros, you and others in computer-related fields may be amused by:
http://www.fnwire.com/news/hearoisr.html
Melody
Naomi Lynne Pardue wrote:
>
> Melody <wik...@cdc.net> wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> >>
> >> Yes, the branch of Judaism (all of them) which don't use Christian saints,
> >> including St. Nicholas.
> >>
> > Just because Christians consider a person a saint doesn't mean that you
> > should regard them as "Christian symbols". That would be like me
> > refusing to look at candles because I'm not Jewish.
>
> Look again at the issue at hand. Candles are used all year around by
> many different religious .. and non-religious groups. Candles, in and
> of themselves, have no relgiious meaning. Santa is pretty much restricted
> to Christmas, and the weeks immediately preceeding it. Surely you'd find
> it pretty odd if your child's school/daycare started doing Santa Claus art
> projects, or stores had Santa out, in ... oh ... April?
>
Point taken. But how about the Star of David?
> > MY local drug store has NO Santa Claus & has just as many Chanukah &
> > Kwanza items as Christmas things. If it offends you so greatly perhaps
> > you should go elsewhere?
>
> Are we talking about items for sale, or items decorating the store itself?
> I am NOT offended by Christmas items being sold for those who choose to
> buy them!
The store isn't decorated at all. All of the items are for sale.
Most of the stores here that are decorated are decorated for BOTH
holidays.
It may not be like that everywhere, I know. There are a lot more Jewish
families around where I live than in most places in this city.
> > People all over the world have different cultures & celebrations. What's
> > wrong with children learing about ALL of them & deciding for themselves
> > what they wish to believe & observe?? Santa Claus is not a "bad" person,
> > he repesents the spirit of giving, is something wrong with giving???!?!
>
> Nothing wrong with LEARNING about them. However, are you REALLY saying
> that kids need to be coloring Santas in order to learn how Christians
> celebrate a particular holiday that happens to fall in December?
>
Absolutley, coloring is a great way to learn about creativity, stories,
as well as hand-eye coordination. I also think they should color
Menorah's & anything else that they can learn something from.
> > I somehow doubt that your daughter's teacher is forcing her to color
> > Santa's against her will. I imagine that if your daughter politely
> > explains that she doesn't celebrate Christmas that her teacher would
> > find something else for her to work on.
>
> And you really expect 3 year olds to speak up about such things?
I apologize, I had no idea she was only 3. But I do imagine the teacher
would find something else for her if you asked her to.
>
> > I cannot imagine how you can possibly consider a plant (Poinsettia) as
> > being a religous symbol either?!?!
>
> Do stores sell pointsettias in July? Didn't think so? (It is certainly a
> borderline holiday symbol, and I was not offended by it. However, it
> was not 100% appropriate eitehr.)
>
Poinsettas are sold in the winter months because they only bloom in
winter. In spring, summer, & fall they're nothing but an ugly leafy
thing that I imagine not many people would purchase. However in winter
(around Christmastime) they do bloom in to the beautiful plant you see
on your desk.
> > Lots of people LIKE decorating for the holidays, I doubt anyone would
> > have a problem with YOUR decorations if you chose to put them up, would
> > they?
>
> No. They wouldn't. As long as I was decorating my personal workspace with
> my personal possessions. And I don't' object to co-workers decorating
> THEIR personal workspaces with THEIR personal possessions.
>
> > I guess I just don't understand why people can't LEARN from each others
> > cultures, no one is asking you to celebrate anything you don't want to.
> > So, really, what's the problem?
>
> They ARE asking me to celebrate things I don't want to celebrate.
> And I assure you that I know a great deal about Christianity, and will not
> be learning anything new by looking at a Christmas tree. (I assure you too
> that I already know MUCH more about Christianity than the vast majoirty of
> Christians know about Judaism or Islam or Hinduism. When I gave my annual
> "Hannukah talk" to Shaina's Brownie troop, the adults present knew almost
> NOTHING about Hanukkah, and even less about Judaism. (One of them couldn't
> understand how Jews could not believe Jesus was the Messiah.) If this is
> TRULY supposed to be an educational issue, then surely it should be MORE
> important to be educating the majority groups about the minorities,
> because the minorities cannot HELP learning about the majority.
Perhaps it's because not many people in the US know enough about Judaism
to teach it. If more Jews felt like educating people on thier beliefs it
might not be that way. I personally would LOVE to know more about ALL
religions than I do now.
>
> > Preschool is optional & it's up to you where you wish to send your
> > child, if you don't like this one then send her to a different place!
>
> Yes, I guess we could go hungry so I could be a SAH mom so my daughter
> would not be forced to celebrate Christmas....
Surly there are some schools around you that don't celebrate Christmas.
Even if there aren't there's always the option of in-home daycares. If
you're truly unhappy with the school she goes to I'm sure there have to
be other options.
>
> > You're actually incorrect about candy canes, as they ARE intended to be
> > a Christian symbol.
> > "Unquestionably, its beginnings are Christian. The shape is
> > intentionally that of a shepherd's crook, and this tasty treat's most
> > likely origin was as a reward for children who had learned their
> > prayers."
>
> It is an example of a religious symbol that HAS become secular. (Hint...
> you can buy candy canes all year round. Nobody thinks it is strange to eat
> candy canes in July.)
>
Maybe so, but I honestly can't recall seeing a candy cane at any time
other than Christmas. I see the sticks all the time, but I can't recall
seeing a candy cane.
> > A symbol only means what you read in to it or BELIEVE it means. Period.
>
> And *I* believe that Santa Claus is a religious symbol of a religion I do
> not profess. So why am I wrong?
You aren't "wrong", no ones opinion or feelings are "wrong". Life is
just all about how you look at it. I can look at (this is just an
example) a swastica & think "bad, nazi, evil, hatred, murder, etc..." or
I can look at it & see "a few lines on a piece of paper (the same thing
someone would think if they had no idea what one was)". I choose to see
lines on paper, it makes my life less full of hate & sorrow.
There's no sense in adding more stress to our lives than there already
is, know what I mean?
Melody
>Naomi
Banty
>
> lc...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I
>
> >
> > Lots of private schools loudly advertise themselves as "secular" in
> > order to attract non-Christian families. They then deluge everyone
> > with the trappings of Christmas and profess confusion when these
> > families object to these supposedly "secular" celebrations. If they
> > were honest, they would tell non-Christian families that "we celebrate
> > Christmas (and maybe Easter etc..) in our school" before they enrolled.
>
> Indeed. My mom taught at such a school (K-12). The city's other prominent
> private schools were specifially associated with churches (Catholic and
> Episopal, I think). She figures that they wanted to "market" themselves as
> secular to attract all the non-Christians, and the school did actually have
> a sizeable Jewish population, and a few Muslims. They handed out Bibles to
> all 5th graders. She got flak for suggesting that in a Dante-related
> project, the students not reserve a circle of hell for non-Christans, since
> that would include some classmates. The school had a speaker at honors day
> who told the students not to listen if the teachers told them things
> contrary to the Bible (evolution, basically).
>
I haven't seen this since my local public elementary school in Texas in
the '60s went ahead and studied some Bible despite the church-state
separation. I'd agree that this is far and away beyond what's
acceptable, and what would be considered acceptable by most.
Banty
Naomi Lynne Pardue
Actually, I would prefer for the secular world to give minimal attention
to ANY religious holiday of ANY religion. I would, of course, like to see
some basic consideration given to all religions, whether that means
letting a Moslem employee take a few minutes to pray at appropriate times
of day, giving Christians Christmas Day off from work, or giving ME Yom
Kippur/Pesach/Rosh HaShana off from work. (I never have any trouble taking
the days, but when I got paid time off, I had to use it, and now that I
don't get any paid time off, I just have to take the days without pay.)
Naomi
(Who packs lunches for Shaina on Pesach...)
Naomi Lynne Pardue
Melody <wik...@cdc.net> wrote:
> Naomi Lynne Pardue wrote:
>> Look again at the issue at hand. Candles are used all year around by
>> many different religious .. and non-religious groups. Candles, in and
>> of themselves, have no relgiious meaning. Santa is pretty much restricted
>> to Christmas, and the weeks immediately preceeding it. Surely you'd find
>> it pretty odd if your child's school/daycare started doing Santa Claus art
>> projects, or stores had Santa out, in ... oh ... April?
>>
> Point taken. But how about the Star of David?
How about it? I'm still not getting your point. I don't refuse to look at
Christmas trees. You should not refuse to look at a 6 pointed star. But
there would be no reason for a school or workplace
to hang Stars of Davidin the
windows, and there is no reason for them to put up Christmas decorations.
>> > MY local drug store has NO Santa Claus & has just as many Chanukah &
>> > Kwanza items as Christmas things. If it offends you so greatly perhaps
>> > you should go elsewhere?
>>
>> Are we talking about items for sale, or items decorating the store itself?
>> I am NOT offended by Christmas items being sold for those who choose to
>> buy them!
> The store isn't decorated at all. All of the items are for sale.
> Most of the stores here that are decorated are decorated for BOTH
> holidays.
> It may not be like that everywhere, I know. There are a lot more Jewish
> families around where I live than in most places in this city.
>
And that is probably why they feel the need to decorate for both holidays.
In my town, it also depends on where you live. The east
side of town tends to have a larger Jewish population, so you are more
likely to see some basic attempts to cater to their needs and wishes. I
live on the west side. (But even on the east side, recognition of cultural
diversity is pretty minimal.)
>> > People all over the world have different cultures & celebrations. What's
>> > wrong with children learing about ALL of them & deciding for themselves
>> > what they wish to believe & observe?? Santa Claus is not a "bad" person,
>> > he repesents the spirit of giving, is something wrong with giving???!?!
>>
>> Nothing wrong with LEARNING about them. However, are you REALLY saying
>> that kids need to be coloring Santas in order to learn how Christians
>> celebrate a particular holiday that happens to fall in December?
>>
> Absolutley, coloring is a great way to learn about creativity, stories,
> as well as hand-eye coordination. I also think they should color
> Menorah's & anything else that they can learn something from.
Ok, but then the question becomes, is there any actual LESSON going along
with those pictures of Santa ... or Menorah. Does the teacher sit down and
teach the class, and discuss with the class the origins of Santa Claus
(either his religious origin in St. Nick, or his cultural origins in 19th
century artwork?), or does she simply ASSUME that everyone in that
preschool knows who Santa is, and just hand out the papers?
>>
>> And you really expect 3 year olds to speak up about such things?
> I apologize, I had no idea she was only 3. But I do imagine the teacher
> would find something else for her if you asked her to.
Sorry, we're talking about hypotheticals, past experiences and current
experiences. Shaina is now 8. When she was 3-5, she attended preschool and
we had a lot of trouble with "It isn't religious, it's just Santa Claus"
explanations from her teachers. This year she is in 2nd grade, and we are
STILL running into problems; in this case a class assignment to write
letters to Santa Claus.
>> Do stores sell pointsettias in July? Didn't think so? (It is certainly a
>> borderline holiday symbol, and I was not offended by it. However, it
>> was not 100% appropriate eitehr.)
> Poinsettas are sold in the winter months because they only bloom in
> winter. In spring, summer, & fall they're nothing but an ugly leafy
> thing that I imagine not many people would purchase. However in winter
> (around Christmastime) they do bloom in to the beautiful plant you see
> on your desk.
If we can get strawberries in January, we can get Pointsettas in July.
(Maybe grown in Australia?)
>> They ARE asking me to celebrate things I don't want to celebrate.
>> And I assure you that I know a great deal about Christianity, and will not
>> be learning anything new by looking at a Christmas tree. (I assure you too
>> that I already know MUCH more about Christianity than the vast majoirty of
>> Christians know about Judaism or Islam or Hinduism. When I gave my annual
>> "Hannukah talk" to Shaina's Brownie troop, the adults present knew almost
>> NOTHING about Hanukkah, and even less about Judaism. (One of them couldn't
>> understand how Jews could not believe Jesus was the Messiah.) If this is
>> TRULY supposed to be an educational issue, then surely it should be MORE
>> important to be educating the majority groups about the minorities,
>> because the minorities cannot HELP learning about the majority.
> Perhaps it's because not many people in the US know enough about Judaism
> to teach it. If more Jews felt like educating people on thier beliefs it
> might not be that way. I personally would LOVE to know more about ALL
> religions than I do now.
And how is this problem solved by having Christian teachers teaching
their classes about Christmas? I think that if a teacher does not feel
able to teach about other faiths, it is that teacher's RESPONSIBILTY to
educate herself about it, and then teach. (Shaina's teacher had Shaina
bring in a book about Hanukkah that she could read to the class. The book
described the historical origins of the holiday, and discussed some of the
ways Jews currently celebrate it. This was all well and good, but she did
NOT, so far as I know, follow up the lesson with having the kids light
candles. And so this does not correlate with this week's lesson to write
letters to Santa.) Saying, "I don't know anything about it, so I'll just
stick to what I DO know" is a cop-out."
Oh, and I'll add that, after my annual "Hanukkah talk" to Shaina's girl
scout troop, I make potato pancakes for the kids. This meets my criteria
for 'is it something anyone would do, and is it something people do all
year round?'
>> > Preschool is optional & it's up to you where you wish to send your
>> > child, if you don't like this one then send her to a different place!
>>
>> Yes, I guess we could go hungry so I could be a SAH mom so my daughter
>> would not be forced to celebrate Christmas....
> Surly there are some schools around you that don't celebrate Christmas.
> Even if there aren't there's always the option of in-home daycares. If
> you're truly unhappy with the school she goes to I'm sure there have to
> be other options.
I suspect that inhome daycares would have even MORE holiday content, since
there would be the decorations put up by the family for their own
celebrations.
I will admit that I did not research every daycare and preschool in town
when I was looking for one. But my impression is that ALL of them included
holiday celebrations in December. (And the first one I had her enrolled in
was run by the city park's department, and so SHOULD have had no holiday
content, from a legal standpoint. And I guarantee that she brought home
her fair share of Santas and Christmas trees that year.)
>> And *I* believe that Santa Claus is a religious symbol of a religion I do
>> not profess. So why am I wrong?
> You aren't "wrong", no ones opinion or feelings are "wrong". Life is
> just all about how you look at it. I can look at (this is just an
> example) a swastica & think "bad, nazi, evil, hatred, murder, etc..." or
> I can look at it & see "a few lines on a piece of paper (the same thing
> someone would think if they had no idea what one was)". I choose to see
> lines on paper, it makes my life less full of hate & sorrow.
> There's no sense in adding more stress to our lives than there already
> is, know what I mean?
So you are saying that if you saw somebody with a Swastica tatooed on his
arm, you would not make any assumptions about him? That you would figure
that the symbol was selected because he liked the pattern?
Now *I'm* not saying that people who think Christmas celebrations belong
in schools and daycares are evil, or are trying to convert me. I DO think
they are, very often, being thoughtless. THEY can't understand why some
people are bothered, so THEY assume that we are WRONG to be bothered.
(Note how quickly my description of being 'annoyed' or 'bothered' was
changed by other posters into 'I think Christmas trees are digusting' and
'I don't want my child to ever learn anything about other faiths.')
Naomi
Banty
>
> Christopher Biow <bi...@ezmort.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Let's try it. We'll substitute Kwanzaa for Christmas.
> >
> > If I were to object strenuously to any usage of symbols such as the Kinara
> > and Mazao in my child's preschool, due to their derivation from Jewish and
> > African religious traditions that had been synthesized into Kwanzaa, I
> > would be displaying oversensitivity, to the point of sheer insensitivity.
> > If my religious beliefs indeed demanded isolation of my children from such
> > influence of the general culture, the onus would be upon me to isolate
> > them. I might expect strongly negative reactions if I complained to my
> > private preschool's administration about these symbols.
> >
>
> Americans actually celebrate Kwanzaa? My teeth were really set on edge
> last year when my son, who attends a largely white public school came
> home telling me that Christmas is for white people and Kwanzaa is for
> black people. And this is from a kid who has an black African priest!
> (Uhm Peter what do think Father Mensah celebrates? And all those black
> kids in your Sunday school class and that you're in choir with?).
> Tonight at my daughter's school winter concert we had an
> African-American spiritual and that was introduced as being in honor of
> Kwanzaa. Funny, I thought traditional African-American spirituals were
> Christian in origin.
>
Yeah, I have mixed feelings about Kwanzaa, too. Taken as a new
tradition that *some* black families have undertaken to celebrate their
African background I think it's great, and it's interesting. And that
it's newly instituted doesn't bother me - celebrations get started
somehow, right? (Think Thanksgiving.) And I would consider it a
positive thing if it were to become established.
But it *is* presented in the schools as a jewel in their
Christmas-Kwanzaa-Hannukah "diversity" necklace, and the impression *is*
given that Kwanzaa is the black Christmas, when all black families that
I know who celebrated Christmas in the past celebrate Christmas now, and
Kwanzaa hasn't really propogated through to everyone who might be
expected to celebrate it. So it's really a misrepresentation of black
culture as it is today. I suspect that Kwanzaa in the schools is part
of the advocacy to institute it, actually.
For students who are black or who have a lot of exposure to black
Americans, like your son and mine (through long established friendships
of mine), it's apparent that Christmas is also celebrated by black
Americans of Christian background, and that Kwanzaa is something new
that may or may not catch on. But for students in mostly white schools,
like my son's, it becomes part of a fairly artificial, fabricated
"Puzzle Place" approach to diversity, and I don't really like it.
Banty
Banty
> Mom to Sarah (8) and Carys (5.5)
I think part of the problem, and what gives rise to irritation on all
sides is that way too much time has been taken out for holiday
celebrations and projects in school. And that the season has spilled
forward even far earlier than Thanksgiving due to commercial greed.
When I went to public school in the '60s, apart from (highly inappriate)
Bible mentions throughout the school year, holiday celebration was
minimal simply because it wasn't considered part of the heavily 3R
oriented cirriculum. Parties weren't had, charities weren't arranged
(charities can be problematic, too, BTW, as to which is appropriate). We
did have a Christmas concert, though. Halloween costumes weren't a
problem (there's been some controversy in some schools locally) because
there was no Halloween party, and the costumes did not conform to the
school dress code. There would be *some* Christmas and Halloween crafts,
as for other holidays, enough to decorate the classroom, but to nowhere
near the extent that my son takes home from his 2nd grade today. When
kids got home, of course the Halloween trick or treating could
enthusiastically begin, the Christmas decorations and activites would be
undertaken (which in those days didn't really gear up until Dec 15 or
so).
I think all around benefit could be obtained if, without constraining
the festive aspect of Christmas, which by nature can't be expected to
happen only in one's home, by popular consensus and feedback to
merchants, etc., we could return Christmas to December, which IMO would
make the Christmas season special again, and emphasize cirriculum in the
schools, and keep the school observances to a point that goes along with
acknoweldges the holidays, without all the extensive actitivies. Then,
kids will learn more, and even the most offended members of our society
would be able to get out, say, all but three or four weeks of the year
instead of six or eight. :-)
Banty
Elizabeth Gardner
<npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
When I lived in NYC, I worked for a few months (as the token Gentile,
maybe?) at a magazine for Jewish readers. Everyone but me got to leave
early Friday afternoon so that they could get home before dark, and my
boss (quite a jerk) was very close to not giving me Christmas off, had I
not raised the specter of religious discrimination (since the rest of the
staff was excused with pay on all the days you mention above, while I had
to be in the office to answer the phone). Fortunately, the staff
sentiment was against him on that one.
I never felt insulted when someone said "Shabbat shalom" to me on their
way out, though that might have been because I knew all I had to do was
step out on the street to resume my place in the majority. But even if
briefly, I did find out how it feels to be a religious minority.
I don't want schools (pre- or otherwise) to _observe_ religious holidays
(unless they're religious schools, of course), but I would like the kids
to be able to study religions and their holidays so they won't be complete
ignoramuses about one of the most central influences in human history. I
remember in high school singing Benjamin Britten's "Saint Nicolas" and the
Bach Christmas Oratorio for our school choir's Christmas concerts. While
I don't think it needs to be called a "Christmas" concert, I think it
would be a great pity if the kids don't get to sing those types of works
these days out of fear of religious content. Restricting a choral music
program to the secular is the same as gutting it. Same with history, art
history, and literature.
Ross Schennum
> > > Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Naomi
> >
> > > Or maybe it's a daycare at a church or a home daycare that is explictly
> > > religious. Though I'm not sure a popsicle stick picture frame with your
> > > child's picture in it counts as specifically Christian.
> >
> > Yes, of course it may be. If it is, then the project is not problematic.
> > If it is a general daycare, then it would be considerate to take into
> > account the needs of all the children there.
> >
> > Naomi
> > some years back, why a Christmas play about Santa and his reindeer and
> > songs about Christmas trees were troubling to me.)
>
> I don't understand why you think a private daycare or preschool, which
> most are, can't do what you define as a "Christian things", If you don't
> daycare where they have plays about Santa and reindeer. Do I lose that
> choice because you don't like it?
>
> Marion Betor Baumgarten- Mother to die Wunderkinder
> -Martha (11) Peter (8)
> St. John's College, Annapolis, 1982
but a daycare that knowingly teaches things that are offensive to some
of its students parents, or worse, hurtful to the children is a BAD day
care. Anyone who is not aware enough of diversity in America to make
the religous practices of their daycare known to prospective clients is
not sensetive enough to hold such an important job. Once a child is in
a preschool or a day care, it is the responsability of the school to
make the child part of its community. Exclusive religous practices that
make some children feel bad or left out are insensative, mean spirited,
and just plain bad educational practice.
Ross, who loved Santa Claus as much as any child, and has children
who love him as well, but is open minded enough to see how myths that
are beautiful to some of us can be hurtful to others, and who is
compassionate enough to respect the feelings of small children.
Christopher Biow
Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>Christopher Biow <bi...@ezmort.com> wrote:
>> If I were to object strenuously to any usage of symbols such as the Kinara
>> and Mazao in my child's preschool, due to their derivation from Jewish and
>> African religious traditions that had been synthesized into Kwanzaa, I
>> would be displaying oversensitivity, to the point of sheer insensitivity.
>> If my religious beliefs indeed demanded isolation of my children from such
>> influence of the general culture, the onus would be upon me to isolate
>> them. I might expect strongly negative reactions if I complained to my
>> private preschool's administration about these symbols.
>Actually, this is an excellent example. As a caucasion American in a city
>with a low African-American population, I know VERY little about Kwanzaa.
>I would not be at ALL upset if my child's school included a study of
>Kwanzaa. (And, in fact, I think it does.) I would also be very interested
>in learning about Kwanzaa myself.
Dawn, it might be time to repost your Introduction to Kwanzaa references.
>However, learning about the celebration
>(which I will note is, I believe, a purely secular one, and does not
>fall under the catagory of separating church and state and, as a cultural
>rather than religious celebration, is far less troubling to me that
>Christmas...
I'll emphasize your use of the phrase "to me" in your last sentence above.
It's critical, and the main thrust of what I'm saying. Kwanzaa is arguably
of secular origin, but, as I've noted, many of its symbols have religious
roots. If the banishment of symbols with religious origin or aspects is
taken to the logical extreme (and you can bet that *somebody's* religion
will insist upon this), these symbols may be objectionable, along with our
common English names for the days of the week.
I maintain that there is no reasonable, objective standard by which Santa,
wreaths, and decorated trees are objectionable in a preschool, but by which
common Kwanzaa symbols or days of the week are not. There is at most a
matter of degree in such distinctions, and the relative degree of different
symbols is an extremely subjective matter. We'll have a hard enough time
drawing a useful line concerning directly religious symbols, without trying
to build "fences around the law" to get at ones that are primarily secular.
>> ... The Supreme Court's series of decisions in the 1990s,
>> culminating in the overturning of the RFRA, have established that the
>> Constitution does not require, and the US Congress may not even mandate,
>> special consideration of religious sensitivities of individual children.
>All very true. However, the fact that something is LEGAL does not mean
>that it is thoughtful or correct...
Granted. There can be "thoughtless and incorrect" extremes in *both*
directions, concerning these highly subjective distinctions. I am
suggesting that the legal boundary provides a reasonable start for a
general, secular standard. Specific instances may involve a greater or
lesser standard.
>> This, of course, applies to all sides. I make no claim of perfect
>> objectivity as a basis for some sort of argument from my own authority.
>> Rather, I prefer to discuss what can objectively be understood. You'll note
>> that I've refrained from ad_hominem speculation about anyone's motivation
>> or rationale for advocacy on this issue. I'm interested only in finding a
>> reasonable standard for secular environments.
>Given your name, I am making the assumption that you are Christian, at
>least by birth and culture.
My argument is that any claim to a secular standard must be objectively
established--otherwise we get into a game of "the most oversensitive side
controls the issue." So my background is not relevant to my argument.
That said, nearly half of my extended family are (mostly secular) Jews, and
we've got a number of religiously Jewish neighbors with whom we must take
highly varying degrees of care when involving their children in holiday
celebrations. 7YO David helped us dye Easter eggs, with the explicit assent
of both his parents, one Reform and one Conservative. I am not halachically
Jewish and am a member of the Roman Catholic Church. Make of it what you
will--some anticirc activists seem to consider my "Jewish background" to be
adequate basis for dismissing my opinions altogether. :-) But I emphasize
again that I am not appealing to my own authority in what I'm arguing in
this thread.
>I will gently note that, laws aside, your
>birth and cultural background makes it very diffucult for you to
>understand what those of use WITHOUT that birth and cultural background
>experience this time of year.
I maintain that any sensitivity which insists upon such subjective
"understanding", that assumes disagreement is evidence of misunderstanding,
that cannot be objectively communicated, lacks merit in terms of setting
secular standards. Otherwise, we fall into the reductio_ad_absurdum by
which the issue is controlled by the one who says "you have to see it from
my point of view--I'm hysterical." (No, I'm not saying that we've yet seen
any hysterics on this issue, only that such hysterics would trump all
reasonable discussion under standards of subjective understanding.)
I probably understand more of your sensitivity and motivation than you
think, but that's not germane to what I consider to be the valid argument
in this case. If a particular child's or parent's sensitivities extend as
far as the horizons, that person may ask for special consideration, and
within reason I'll give it, even if it means not mentioning fantasy
literature or dinosaurs to a child whose Evangelical Christian parents fear
all taint of the occult or evolution science. But it should not be
presumed, expected, or required in advance, based upon a religious attitude
which I'll never understand or sympathize with a tenth as well as modern
Judaism.
>> I do not presume to speak for non-Christians or even for Christians. I'll
>> not accuse those asking for the suppression of Santa of presuming to speak
>> for Christians. I have not stated whether your particular flavor of Judaism
>> should or should not object to its children's exposure to Santa, wreaths,
>> or the Great Chocolate Bunny at preschool. I have suggested what I feel is
>> a reasonable middle ground for US children.
>And *I* feel that an even more reasonable middle ground is to eliminate
>ALL religious symbols from secular environments.
Then precisely what constitutes a "religious symbol"? What objective
standard can you propose, that does not require statements that include "to
me"? How is your standard better than the one used by US courts in
delineating the reach of their Separation of Church and State principle for
captive audiences of children?
>If a Christian family
>wants to celebrate Christmas, why can they not do it in their own home?
>(Seeing as I have to take unpaid days off from work to celebrate MY
>holidays, but have no choice but to sit at home and twiddle my thumbs
>every Christmas, it's hardly an unreasonable request.)
Oh, my father found it very useful when he was in the Navy, available to
swap watchstanding duty with Christians who had been assigned watch on
Christian holidays!
Yes, I do understand what you mean. The problem extends to sabbath
definition, particularly for those who celebrate a Friday sabbath. It is an
inherent limitation upon living in a society that is predominately
Christian and whose secular traditions are almost exclusively based upon
Christianity. I'd prefer that employers and schools provide more
flexibility concerning religious holidays, but they are not required to do
so in the US.
>> I'm sorry if you find my posts less than empathetic. I don't necessarily
>> feel empathy toward some opinions that I regard as extreme and unreasonable
>> attempts to make our secular society conform to someone's religious
>> sensitivity.
>Again, please explain to me how Christmas symbols are an inherant part of
>a 'secular' society?
I'd say that the words "symbol" and "inherent" are virtually
self-contraditory--I've made no such claim. I have claimed that symbols
with religious origin pervade even the secular aspect of our society,
including much of our common 'Murkin English vocabulary.
Cissy . Thorpe
On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Melody wrote:
>> snipped stuff about ponsettia orgin <<
> It's a PLANT! If you look at everything mentioned in the bible as a
> religous symbol then you're going to have some serious problems!
>
> I have never HEARD that story in my ENTIRE LIFE. Mexican Catholics
> aren't exactly in the majority in the U.S. either yanno.
Well, there you go...you've never heard it so it can't possibly be
true.
It ISN'T mentioned in the bible - pay some attention - the little fella
was on his was to CHRISTMAS MASS!!!! The plants do originate in Mexico
and it is anyone's guess as to whether or not they have always been as we
see them now...but one would think there would be some mention of them
somewhere before the 1920s when they were brought to the US - they are
called "Flor de Noche Buena" - flower of the Holy Night.
It is Mexican religious folklore and Mexican Catholics are pretty
prevalent around here. And Hispanics are getting to be a majority in
general.
Cissy
Christopher Biow
>(Just for the record, from a religious point of view Christmas is actually 3rd
>most important holiday celebrated by most Christian denominations. Pentacost
>has more religious significance, but not nearly the shopping.)
>From a Roman Catholic perspective, relevant to teaching children my
religion, I'd place the Feasts of the Annunciation, Pentecost, Immaculate
Conception, Ascension, Corpus Christi, and Epiphany ahead of Christmas. The
isogetical combination of infancy narratives that we tend to "celebrate" at
Christmas may teach more "wrong" lessons than right ones. The few lessons
that might be taught tend to get submerged in even the explicitly religious
symbols and celebration of Christmas, much less Santa, elves, and $$$$.
Christopher Biow
Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>John Hascall <jo...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>>Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>>Marion Baumgarten <mari...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> I don't understand why you think a private daycare or preschool, which
>>>> most are, can't do what you define as a "Christian things", If you don't
>>>> like the cirriculum, send your child elsewhere.
>>>If every daycare has them, I don't have much choice, do I?
>> Of course you have a choice. In fact, you have several.
>> Two which come immediately to mind are:
>> 1) start one
>Neither my education nor my interest extends to running daycares.
>> 2) relocate to a community with one
>Ah, so I'm supposed to MOVE to avoid this kind of thing... Uhh... last
>I checked, the entire United States had something in its constitution
>that is generally interpreted to mean 'freedom of religion.'
Absolutely nothing in the original intent or court intepretation of the
First Amendment guarantees or implies that you will be able to find a
secular preschool in your area that complies with your religious
sensitivies. It's applicable only in granting freedom to preschools
administrations to run them with as much or as little religious content as
they choose. Your only appeal here is to market forces--if there is enough
demand, someone is likely to start a preschool that will accomodate you.
Your only alternative may be to move, if you want that preschool. However,
I'd actually observe, comparing US and English experiences, that religious
belief seems to be best preserved where there is not any extensive attempt
by the state to provide accomodations to each religion. I don't know if
that extends to the prevalence of one's belief in the local community.
>> Second, you stepped around the question -- does your
>> objection to "plays about Santa and reindeer" mean
>> others lose that choice? Because if it can get
>> blanded-out of one, it can get blanded-out of all.
>No. The choice is to enroll the child in a CHRISTIAN daycare, which would
>very likely have Christmas plays, or to enroll the child in a SECULAR
>daycare, which would not have them.
Few in your area may agree with you concerning what symbols would be
excluded in a secular preschool. Where that is the case, there will
probably not be enough market for such a preschool.
Marion Baumgarten
e.
>
> It ISN'T mentioned in the bible - pay some attention - the little fella
> was on his was to CHRISTMAS MASS!!!! The plants do originate in Mexico
> and it is anyone's guess as to whether or not they have always been as we
> see them now...but one would think there would be some mention of them
> somewhere before the 1920s when they were brought to the US - they are
> called "Flor de Noche Buena" - flower of the Holy Night.
>
> It is Mexican religious folklore and Mexican Catholics are pretty
> prevalent around here. And Hispanics are getting to be a majority in
> general.
>
> Cissy
I doubt it's even Mexican folklore, but made up by some greeting card
company, According to my dictionary, it's a native Mexican plant,
introduced to the US by J.R. Poinsett who was a US government official
in Mexico. He died in 1851, so they've been around in the US a lot
longer than 1920.
Marion Baumgarten
>
>
> It is an example of a religious symbol that HAS become secular. (Hint...
> you can buy candy canes all year round. Nobody thinks it is strange to eat
> candy canes in July.)
>
Really? I've never bought a candy cane in July. I'm not even sure they
would be in the stores. Stick candy, sure. Actual candy canes?
Hope you don't eat pretzels, the traditional shape comes from praying
hands and were made by monks to instruct their students.
Marion Baumgarten
> They are annoying because they are being forced upon those who do not wish
> to partake. I honestly don't see how it is 'prejudiced' of me to not want
> to have to listen to Christmas music on my lunch hour, see Santa Claus
> when I go to the drug store to get a prescription filled, and, in general,
> be unable to escape the constant barrage for several months out of every
> year. Again, if YOU want to decorate YOUR home with Christmas decorations,
> that is YOUR choice, and I will not object. But when it becomes a public
> thing (esp. in settings where there cannot possibly be any 'commercial'
> motivation), it is troubling to me.
>
I'm not sure what you think this country is supposed to do about it. If
enough people find Christmas music in the drug store annoying, they will
patronize the one without the music. If more people like the music in
the drugstore (or find it innocuous), then the store will continue the
music. (Never seen a Santa in a drugstore by the way). I'm not sure what
you mean by commericial motivation. Are you saying that you would rather
people decorate out of crass commercialism than deeply held religious
beliefs? Our local hardware store puts a nativity set in the window.
Yeah, it has nothing to do with selling hammers, but are you serious in
saying that it is harmful to you in someway?
When you go into the Mexican neighborhoods in Chicgo, you will find
giant murals of Our Lady of Guadalupe on the sides of buildings and
almost every store have a picture of her and maybe a crucifix or a
picture of Lazarus next to the cash register. Are we supposed to outlaw
this?
I do occasionally come across Budhist altars in a few stores, too. No
one is grabbing me and forcing me to burn some incense in them.
Marion Baumgarten
>
>
>
> Oh, and I'll add that, after my annual "Hanukkah talk" to Shaina's girl
> scout troop, I make potato pancakes for the kids. This meets my criteria
> for 'is it something anyone would do, and is it something people do all
> year round?'
>
Yes, but when you are making latkes, you are making them because it is
part of the Hanukah celebration- you take something secular and make it
a religious symbol. People eat bread and drink wine all year round too,
but you might think differently about it if it were at the communion
rail.
Animzmirot
> Maybe I'm looking for a
>> daycare where they have plays about Santa and reindeer. Do I lose that
>> choice because you don't like it?
>
>Those families that feel a strong need to have Christian observence
>in their daycares usually have options.
>
accurate. Most places I'm familiar with DO have Jewish day care. In the city I
lived in for 26 years there were at least 30 Jewish day cares in the
metropolitan area.
Now I live on the other side of the country, and this are is NOT in the least
bit Jewish, but there are several Jewish day care centers within easy driving
distance of my home. Some are synagogue based, some are JCC based, and others
are private. But I find it hard to believe that there are NO Jewish day care
centers in a University town.
Unfortunately, many of the Jewish day cares I'm familiar with don't have an
extended day, so that might be an issue for many parents, but there are almost
always SOME Jewish day care facilities in most communities where Jews reside.
I sent my children to Jewish day care and preschool because I didn't want to
have to fight this fight, and I didn't want to expose my children to the narrow
thinking I've seen on the internet regarding this topic. I think that as more
and more Jewish parents become less assimilated and more empowered, Jewish
eduction will be even more on the rise than it is now. I sure hope that every
Jewish child has the chance for a strong Jewish education, just as my children
have been so lucky to receive.
>
>
>
>
>
Marion Baumgarten
Marion's note:
(Not sure of the attributions here)
> >However, learning about the celebration
> >(which I will note is, I believe, a purely secular one, and does not
> >fall under the catagory of separating church and state and, as a cultural
> >rather than religious celebration, is far less troubling to me that
> >Christmas...
>
The problem I have in presenting Kwanzaa and not Christmas or Hanuakah
or any other holiday with a religious component is that to me, it sends
the clear message that "secular things" are more desirable than the
religious. So we'll spend a lot of time making a Kwanzaa mat, but please
don't mention the C word. Hey, Santa is part of my culture, doesn't that
get some time?
Animzmirot
>retrospective on Christianity in LIFE this month, marking it as *the* most
>popular religion in the world today with over 22,000 different
>denominations. In fact, one of the most remarkable events of the
>millennium, according to some Christian scholars, is that Christianity
>even survived, not that it has thrived.
>
You must have misread the article, or the article must have been misleading.
Islam is by far the most popular and populated religion in the world, not
Xtianity.
Calling Santa a mitzvah is a shanda.
Naomi Lynne Pardue
Marion Baumgarten <mari...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I'm not sure what you think this country is supposed to do about it. If
> enough people find Christmas music in the drug store annoying, they will
> patronize the one without the music. If more people like the music in
> the drugstore (or find it innocuous), then the store will continue the
> music.
Well, if there WAS a store without christmas music, I would patronize it.
(Unfortunately, the way my insurance works, I have few choices in the
drug-store department...).
But really, that would be an interesting study. Have two different
branches of the same store (i.e., with similar merchandaise.) Have one
play Christmas music/put up Christmas decorations, etc. Have the other
keep with its year-round decor/muzak. In mid-January, see if there was any
difference in revenue. And I would say that if the store WITH the
Christmas stuff did not have significantly higher sales, then they should
get rid of it, since it clearly isnt' HELPING sales, and may well be
bothering people ... people who may or may not have much choice about
where they shop.
(Never seen a Santa in a drugstore by the way).
Neither had I. Until this year.
I'm not sure what
> you mean by commericial motivation. Are you saying that you would rather
> people decorate out of crass commercialism than deeply held religious
> beliefs?
I am saying that a certain amount of Christmas decorations MAY have
commercial benefit for stores. (As if patrons might forget that it is
Christmas, and FORGET to buy presents if the stores weren't decorated stem
to stern in lights and holly...) So there is, at least, a financial
motivation for them to do it. A motivation that does NOT exist in most
workplaces.
Our local hardware store puts a nativity set in the window.
> Yeah, it has nothing to do with selling hammers, but are you serious in
> saying that it is harmful to you in someway?
I would PROBABLY find it LESS offensive than the usual decorations,
because creches are usually smaller and less obvious to the eye. And yes,
I could say to myself "This is a religious person who feels the need to
present his religious feelings ... much in the same way the Arab
Christians you mentioned in another post put up icons in their shops.
> When you go into the Mexican neighborhoods in Chicgo, you will find
> giant murals of Our Lady of Guadalupe on the sides of buildings and
> almost every store have a picture of her and maybe a crucifix or a
> picture of Lazarus next to the cash register. Are we supposed to outlaw
> this?
Look, I'm not asking to OUTLAW anything. (Except for religious observence
in public school classes.)
And, as I think I noted, and Cissy stated so clearly, the biggest part of
the problem, for me is the 'in your face' aspects of Christmas. Those
decorations you describe in Mexican neighborhoods are there all year. They
are part of the cultural wallpaper of the community. They are NOT part of
a 6 week frenzy where you see Christmas decorations everywhere you turn,
have store clerks wish you a merry christmas with every purchase (even
when the purchase is Hanukkah candles...), and have friends confess a
complete inability to understand WHY you don't put up Christmas trees in
YOUR home, wonder if your child feels TERRIBLY left out by not getting
gifts from Santa Claus, and have your boss decide that the spot right next
to YOUR desk would be the perfect spot to set up the office Christmas
tree! A quiet crucifix next to a cash register would be HEAVEN compared to
that!
Naomi
Naomi Lynne Pardue
>>Most communities have Christian daycares. Most do not have Jewish ones.
>>Those families that feel a strong need to have Christian observence
>>in their daycares usually have options.
>>
> I think Marion has a point and I don't think Naomi's response was fair or
> accurate. Most places I'm familiar with DO have Jewish day care. In the city I
> lived in for 26 years there were at least 30 Jewish day cares in the
> metropolitan area.
You presumably lived in a community with a LARGE Jewish population. I
don't think there are 30 daycares of ANY kind in our town. And, when the
synagogue (the ONLY synagogue, with about 100 families in it) looked into
opening one, they determined that there were not enough kids to make it
financially feasible. (Each class in the relgious school (Sun/Wed after
school) has 3-6 students in it.)
> Now I live on the other side of the country, and this are is NOT in the least
> bit Jewish, but there are several Jewish day care centers within easy driving
> distance of my home. Some are synagogue based, some are JCC based, and others
> are private. But I find it hard to believe that there are NO Jewish day care
> centers in a University town.
In a university town in New York or Connecticut, probably. In Indiana,
believe it.
Naomi