China related stocks are soaring!
6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu
they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
I have followed them since they went public. Anyone interested in
those stocks and comments?
Jennifer N. Young
Yes. Please post more info. Also cross-post it to alt.chinese.text.
--
--JNY
David A. Kaye
: |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
: |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
: |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison labor and
forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
Jennifer N. Young
|> : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
|> : |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
|> : |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
|> : |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
|>
nd
|> forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cos~
t
|> goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
|> propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
|> massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
Are you sure that these companies are involved in prison labor and forced
labor? Isn't your statement a bit over-generalized? IMHO, it's precisely~
for a healthy Chinese economy that we should be more involved in Chinese
companies. (Note: involvement is not necesarily the same as investment.)
--JNY
David Fox
] In article <2ej5b9$8...@crl.crl.com>, d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) wrote:
] |> : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote: : |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc
] |> are chinese companies trade on NYSE : |> they posted gains from
] |> 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks. : |> the upward monentum
] |> is strong and each day they make new highs.
] |>
] |> Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison
] |> labor and forced labor being used by these companies in order to
] |> bring us low cost goods? Should we be concerned also about a
] |> healthy Chinese economy propping up the same government
] |> responsible for the Tienamen Square massacre? Or, shouldn't we
] |> be making moral judgments on stock picks?
]
] Are you sure that these companies are involved in prison labor and forced
] labor? Isn't your statement a bit over-generalized? IMHO, it's precisely
] for a healthy Chinese economy that we should be more involved in Chinese
] companies. (Note: involvement is not necesarily the same as investment.)
It is certainly something we should be concerned about. China
has about 20 million prisoners, that is more then four times
the US rate of incarceration per capita, and the US rate is
extremely high compared to the rest of the world. China has
no laws regarding the labor conditions of prisoners. With this
many people in prison, slave labor is an important part of
China's economy. China can have the unpleasant and dangerous
tasks of its economy performed at extremely low cost, so
other Chinese companies have considerably lower costs than
they would otherwise, or than they would in a country that
did not practice wholesale slave labor.
There was an article in The Economist about this that I can't
seem to lay my hands on right now.
On the other hand, I'm not sure that avoiding the secondary
market for their securities is a very meaningful protest.
-david
David Fox
] There was an article in The Economist about this that I can't
] seem to lay my hands on right now.
Found it. October 2nd, 1993, page 33, "China's secret economy."
bl...@ief.itg.ti.com
: 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
: |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
: |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
: |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
>Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison labor and
>forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
>goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
>propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
>massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
Why don't you post that on a philosophy newsgroup? Americans
ought to quit shoving their own morals on 6000 year old cultures they
don't understand.
Shiwei Xu
should you care after they already went up that much?
Gary Fritz
: : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
: Why don't you post that on a philosophy newsgroup? Americans
: ought to quit shoving their own morals on 6000 year old cultures they
: don't understand.
I don't believe the current regime could be considered a 6000 year old
culture. They are a power-hungry elite who have been in power for less
than, what, 50 years?
I don't claim the older Chinese cultures were necessarily perfect;
I honestly don't know enough to say. But just because a bunch of
murderous thugs happens to live in a country with a long history
doesn't give them automatic approval.
Gary
Siamak Khoubyari
In article <CI1AM...@fc.hp.com>, fr...@fc.hp.com (Gary Fritz) writes:
|> bl...@ief.itg.ti.com wrote:
|>
|>
|> : : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
|> : Why don't you post that on a philosophy newsgroup? Americans
|>
|> I don't believe the current regime could be considered a 6000 year old
|> culture. They are a power-hungry elite who have been in power for less
|> than, what, 50 years?
|>
|>
|> Gary
Congradulations friends, you have just helped me start my kill file
for this newsgroup!
-- Siamak
YEO YEK CHONG
> : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
> : |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
> : |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
> : |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
>
> Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison labor and
> forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
Haven't heard about this claim, yet. Where do you get your info from?
> goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
A healthy Chinese economy is to the best interest of not only the USA,
but also to the best interest of East and Southeast Asian economy. Its is
a huge market that many lives depend on. Just like a strong Japenese
economy stabilizes regional economy in Asia, a healthy Chinese economy has
a far greater influence. (We are talking about a quarter of the world's
population here.) Alienating China will produce a future Soviet. Not a
single bit of a good prospect for the so-called free world. Besides,
getting in the way of an economy moving towards free market economy seems
to me an obstacle to a society leaning towards capitalistic reforms.
> propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
> massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
In my opinion, Tienamen Square protesters are impatient and immature.
The Asian culture do not work this way. Yes, many people were killed, but
it is more than just a matter of 'human rights'. And I believe many will
disagree with me, especially Hong Konger. Teng has already started the
economic reforms way before Gorby started his. Today, the Chinese may
think of the protesters as an obstacle to reforms. (Watch CNN) Besides, if
one really wants to start a revolution, one will not cry in front the whole
world, but start doing something. (Mere media manipulation by the press)
This is what I do not feel right about the sincerety of the Tienamen Square
protesters. They are teenagers, with no respect for their opponents, and
worst of all, without any unifying strategy. No command and control. No
knowledge of their own strengths and weeknesses. No skills in negotiation.
This is why they failed. Not because there are no 'human rights' in that
country. (Perhaps, but that is secondary. And for the most part it is
cultural) It may be OK for the Westerner to rebuke the elder, but it is
definitely a no no in Asian culture. Here, we have a bunch of teenagers
who inherit everything they have so far making demands to a generation
of leaders who fought for their lives in the 40's. Slapping the military
commander in the face in front of the whole world. Something is wrong
here. Any sane strategist, businessman, or politician will tell you this:
respect your opponent. So, you see. It is not just a matter of human right.
--
Yeo Yek Chong
Computer Science Department
Oklahoma State University
Stillwater, Oklahoma, USA
Mike Quigley
as fast as it's going up. It's all rampant speculation now. Investment
property in China is now being resold two and three times a week! Should
have jumped in when Bush and Kissinger did!
Mike
Marcus S. Yoo
>In article <beijing-13...@scf-slc.berkeley.edu> bei...@garnet.berkeley.edu (Jennifer N. Young) writes:
>] In article <2ej5b9$8...@crl.crl.com>, d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) wrote:
>] |> : ... Chinese company stocks rising ...
>] |> Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison
>] |> labor and forced labor being used by these companies in order to
>] |> ...
>] Are you sure that these companies are involved in prison labor and forced
>] ...
>It is certainly something we should be concerned about. China
>...
>On the other hand, I'm not sure that avoiding the secondary
>market for their securities is a very meaningful protest.
Unless the human rights violation is so grossly unjust and out in the public,
much as was with South Africa (and even this case can be debated), avoiding
the market doesn't really say much. In extreme cases, I would boycott some
products just to satisfy my moral. If not enough people do the same, the only
ones that will really be hurt is those boycotters...
For example, would you avoid buying fruits and vegetables picked by some
migrant farmers? If you know something about how the migrant farmers are
treated, you wouldn't say anything about any prison labors. In many cases,
the migrants comes out of the season oweing money! Much of it has to do
with their own fault, but then again, their pay isn't exactly up to par
with >minimum wages<.
Now, given this, if you still want to stay away from stocks of chinese
companies, then you should also stay away from all fruits and vegetables.
Doesn't make much sense (IMO).
--
Marcus S. Yoo (m...@scr.siemens.com) | My thoughts are not for Tasha but for
Siemens Corporate Research, Inc. | myself. I keep thinking how empty it
755 College Rd. E., 609-734-3313 | will be without her presence. Did I
Princeton, NJ 08540 fax: -6565 | miss the point? -- Data, ST:TNG
Niel W. Hanes
Aren't there any better groups to discuss these things in?
I didn't subscribe to an investment group to hear people
discuss human rights and ecological concerns.
Just my 'one-shares' worth.
Niel
Wayne Liang
related politics. If you guys want to talk about human rights in
China, why don't you post your articals in some other newsgroup.
I am getting sick and tired that this group has been turned into
misc.invest.human-rights.
David Fox
] Make it roughly 18 millions male prisoners. So, 18/300 => 6%
] are in jail? I don't get that feeling so big a percentage are in jail
] when I am in China. Do the 20 millions include even traffic violation
] or drunkards that got lock up for a night?
Well, it doesn't include the accountants executed a few months
ago for graft...
] You can only do light industry (e.g. toys, clothings, ...) using prison
] labor. The three stocks mentioned are for tires and automobiles, so
] called heavy industry. It will be stupid to concentrate thousands of
] them in a big plant. It is hard to watch prisoners moving around big
] machinaries. With too many of them in one spot, it takes even more man
] power to watch them.
All of this seems to be speculation on your part, directly
contradicting the article I read in The Economist. Note that
it is quite unlikely that those companies themselves use such
labor, but probably the asbestos for the brake linings (if
that is what they use) comes from mines using prison labor
(asbestos mining can be very dangerous to your health)
etc. etc.
I have no direct knowledge of the matter, except that when
I'm in China I get the feeling that the government could and
would easily hide 20 million prisoners somewhere that I would
never find them. I'll take a look when I go there on Sunday.
Sorry if this doesn't seem to be misc.invest.stocks related,
but it is just the nature of USENET to finish a discussion
where it started. Use your kill files. Maybe I'll post more
info from the article in a China newsgroup. Anyone interested?
-david
David A. Kaye
: I didn't subscribe to an investment group to hear people
: discuss human rights and ecological concerns.
You're not concerned about the companies you own? I am. We're not
talking gambling here (well, maybe we are), but we're talking about
ownership of companies which employ real people. The value of that stock
to its board of directors (who are usually majority stockholders)
determines the future policies of those companies. We can either keep
a destructing regime in place by running up their stock value, or help to
kick it out by refusing to help raise their stock prices. I note that
the University of California divested itself of holding in the Republic
of South Africa, and suddenly blacks there were given participation in
the electoral process there. Conscientious investing DOES work.
Thayne Forbes
: It is certainly something we should be concerned about. China
: has about 20 million prisoners, that is more then four times
: the US rate of incarceration per capita, and the US rate is
: extremely high compared to the rest of the world. China has
: no laws regarding the labor conditions of prisoners. With this
: many people in prison, slave labor is an important part of
: China's economy.
I admit that I am uninformed on this point but I must point
out that I find it hard to believe that the contribution of
less than 2% of China's population is an important part of it's
economy.
--
Thayne Forbes tha...@unislc.slc.unisys.com
Unisys Unix Support Engineering, Salt Lake City.
Phone: (801) 594-4448 Fax: (801) 594-3827
ZENG Roger Wei Gang
>bl...@ief.itg.ti.com wrote:
{>I don't believe the current regime could be considered a 6000 year old
>culture. They are a power-hungry elite who have been in power for less
>than, what, 50 years?
Flame on .......
OOOOH, please!!! This is a investment discussion. If you people want to
start the 1000001 flame war on the net, move it to
misc.invest.stocks.moral-and-politically.correct.philosophers or something
like that. People are here to discuss stocks, not whether there are 2
million or 2 million and 1 prison labor in China. I really don't give a
damn about what the company's doing when I pick stocks as long as they're
legal. Now for all your moral-conscious souls, move your discussion
somewhere else before another group is filled with garbage.
Flame off ......
--
"Life is about going out and sieze Roger Zeng
|' opportunity, not security, Engeering Science 9T5
o like playing tennis ..." University of Toronto
/| e-mail: ze...@ecf.toronto.edu
David Fox
] Well it looked like a good newsgroup at first.
]
] Aren't there any better groups to discuss these things in?
]
] I didn't subscribe to an investment group to hear people
] discuss human rights and ecological concerns.
Ok, I promise to stop.
-david
Jason W Solinsky
|> In article <beijing-13...@scf-slc.berkeley.edu> bei...@garnet.berkeley.edu (Jennifer N. Young) writes:
|>
|> ] In article <2ej5b9$8...@crl.crl.com>, d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) wrote:
|> ] |> : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote: : |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc
|> ] |> are chinese companies trade on NYSE : |> they posted gains from
|> ] |> 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks. : |> the upward monentum
|> ] |> is strong and each day they make new highs.
|> ] |>
|> ] |> Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison
|> ] |> labor and forced labor being used by these companies in order to
|> ] |> bring us low cost goods? Should we be concerned also about a
|> ] |> healthy Chinese economy propping up the same government
|> ] |> responsible for the Tienamen Square massacre? Or, shouldn't we
|> ] |> be making moral judgments on stock picks?
|> ]
|> ] Are you sure that these companies are involved in prison labor and forced
|> ] labor? Isn't your statement a bit over-generalized? IMHO, it's precisely
|> ] for a healthy Chinese economy that we should be more involved in Chinese
|> ] companies. (Note: involvement is not necesarily the same as investment.)
|>
|> It is certainly something we should be concerned about. China
|> has about 20 million prisoners, that is more then four times
|> the US rate of incarceration per capita, and the US rate is
Unless I am horribly mistaken, the US has four times the rate of incarceration
per capita that China has.
JWS
James Felder
Ari Cohn <ac...@ascribe.synopsys.com> wrote:
>Ask the following question: Will not investing in China
>change Chinese labor practices?
Yes, to the degree exactly equal to the amount that you don't invest.
Saying that the individual investor doesn't have enough clout to
effect thing is, IMHO, only a salve on your conscience for
participating in something that is against your own ethics.
When you walk up a flight of stone steps can you see any change? No.
But if a million people walk up that flight the wear is dramatic. The
wear didn't occur because some huge institutional set of feet walked
up and wore then down in one blow. No it took a million sets, each
acting individually and imperceptiably. Each individual had to decide
to make that walk for themselves. No one else could do it for them.
But then again, you probably don't vote either. After all why bother.
What difference can one vote make out of the millions of other votes,
right. So are you going to sign your vote over to some institutional
voting group that with huge voting blocks can get things done? Will
this institutional group do everything exactly in line with what you
want?
As to whether the only person hurt it the protesting investor. I don't
think the investor is hurt. Instead I think that living your ethic
returns large return in growth as a person. That person might not be
as wealthy, but is money worth sacrificing that which is important to you.
If Chinese labor practices are disturbing, then don't invest. The
effect will be insignificant on its own. But the collective effect if
everyone invested in places that didn't violate their own ethics would
be as great or greater than that of any large institutional investor.
--
James L. Felder jfe...@lerc.nasa.gov
Sverdrup Technology, Inc.
NASA Lewis Research Center
Cleveland, Ohio, 44135
Dick Crepeau
I agree. Please, those of you with a philosophical bent, I decide where
I will invest my time and money and appreciate the first posting bringing
to my attention possible moral concerns, but further discussion including this
letter should be unnecessary.
To make this fit in this news group I offer an investment I believe
will generate good returns with a little risk. Check out Shaman
Pharmaceuticals (OTC). They are checking plants from South America used
by shamen of the tribes there for medical purposes. The believe in
reinvesting some of their profits back to the tribes, a truly moral
investment!
In answer to one of the early posters asking for an investment broker
recommendation. I am quite happy with Richard Zeccola at Dean Witter
(800-776-0780). He used to work at IBM (25 years) and is active in
technology stocks, gives thorough research, and can deal on the commisions
with the best of them. He is currently expanding his client list, tell him
Dick Crepeau sent you!
I once found a listing of NYSE prices through gopher. They were one
day old, but I lost the address. It would be nice if someone could
publish a way of automatically retreiving selected issues from something
like that.
"Wishing you the best of good buys"
Dick Crepeau
Raghu Raghunathan
>
>In article <2ej5b9$8...@crl.crl.com>, d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) writes:
>Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison labor and
>forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
>goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
>propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
>massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
Please! Keep morals out of the investment newsgroup. If morals entered
into an investment decision, I shouldn't be buying stock of any company
which hires people who have sex outside of marriage, which hires
people who smoke or drink (even outside the work place), and which
allows its employees to goof off on the job. This would probably rule out
all U.S. companies.
I know, I know, My morals are completely different from yours. And that's
exactly my point. Please leave morals discussion out of investment groups.
Thanks,
Raghu.
James W. Jeffries
Hmm, a very touchy subject. You could argue that the best way to improve
conditions in China is to help their economic growth. At the same time
I see your point ("greedy Americans" throwing money, and asking questions
later).
--
Jim Jeffries
j...@umich.edu
gozdz,antoni s
snip
>... I note that
>the University of California divested itself of holding in the Republic
>of South Africa, and suddenly blacks there were given participation in
>the electoral process there. Conscientious investing DOES work.
Aren't we feeling a bit too self-important here...? ;-)
--Tony
--
Tony Gozdz
to...@cc.bellcore.com
Shiwei Xu
problem, 48 HOURS? I guess that is on the same channel where David Letterman
makes his new career...
Yeh, the US of A does not have prison labor. It just pays around $50k of
taxpayer's money on each murderer, drugdealor, and the like in jail to
produce sh*t. I guess that is real humane.
Just a little observation of mine. No offense.
ach...@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Albert Cheng) writes:
>In article <FOX.93De...@graphics.cs.nyu.edu>, f...@graphics.cs.nyu.edu (David Fox) writes:
>>It is certainly something we should be concerned about. China
>>has about 20 million prisoners, that is more then four times
>>the US rate of incarceration per capita, and the US rate is
>>extremely high compared to the rest of the world. China has
>>no laws regarding the labor conditions of prisoners. With this
>>many people in prison, slave labor is an important part of
>>China's economy.
>20 millions? All at one time or over a period of time? One should
>realize that prison population are usually adults of age 17-50. Though
>China has 1.1 billion population, maybe 60% of them are from age
>17-50. So, 660 million potential adults. Male population is lower
>than female. So, about 300 million men. Prisoners are overwhelmly
>male. Make it roughly 18 millions male prisoners. So, 18/300 => 6%
>are in jail? I don't get that feeling so big a percentage are in jail
>when I am in China. Do the 20 millions include even traffic violation
>or drunkards that got lock up for a night?
>> China can have the unpleasant and dangerous
>>tasks of its economy performed at extremely low cost, so
>>other Chinese companies have considerably lower costs than
>>they would otherwise, or than they would in a country that
>>did not practice wholesale slave labor.
>You can only do light industry (e.g. toys, clothings, ...) using prison
>labor. The three stocks mentioned are for tires and automobiles, so
>called heavy industry. It will be stupid to concentrate thousands of
>them in a big plant. It is hard to watch prisoners moving around big
>machinaries. With too many of them in one spot, it takes even more man
>power to watch them.
>I agree one should be concerned about oppressive government, but
>sentimental claims, are, well, sentimental. Yes, China's average labor
>cost maybe one fifth of the comparable ones in USA. That does not
>necessarily makes it evil. People working at fast food places earn
>less than one fifth of many professionals. Is that necessarily evil?
Mike Quigley
Mike
David A. Kaye
: When it comes to making money, fuck morals. Listen to your national
: leaders.
Yes. I understand prostitution is a growth industry now that a lot of
women refuse to have sex on the first date. They're thinking of
legalizing it in San Francisco. An investment today could mean big
rewards tomorrow.
Brian Jam Roseberry
>Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
>they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
>the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
>those stocks and comments?
I am interested in any information you have on these stocks. I am
a college student, and I am an East Asian Studies Minor, an I may soon
have money to invest, and I really don't mind the risk. Anything would
be great.
Brian
--
**********************************************************************
* There are very few personal problems which * Brian Roseberry *
* which cannot be solved by a proper * pi...@bach.udel.edu *
* application of high explosives. * rose...@udel.edu *
Brian Jam Roseberry
>>Why don't you post that on a philosophy newsgroup? Americans
>>ought to quit shoving their own morals on 6000 year old cultures they
>>don't understand.
>
>your mouth is?" Apparently not, judging by your post.
>
>Cold-blooded investing and mindless consumerism are pointless,
>because they lead to the destruction of the planet and enrich
>only those with the initial ability to invest/own a business.
<Lots of morally rightous bullshit deleted>
>
>If CalPERS and other large institutional investors can
>force rate rollbacks in HMOs to benefit consumers, they
>can also push for humane and ecologically sustainable
>business practices. If you believe that capitalism can
>promote the welfare of people as well as their wealth,
>there is nothing incompatible about morality and investment.
Well, I can't say that I completely disagree with you, but I must
lash out at someone over the fact that I can't get an iota of
information on actual Chinese stocks due to this shit. Go somewhwere
else!!!!!! Why don't you create an new group:
misc.invest.stocks.bleeding.hearts.that.only.want.to.talk.about.other
shit.that.is.not.related.to.fucking.stocks.?
I can't say I'll subscribe, but it will keep me from having to put
this thread in my kill file. I really am interested in this, please go
waste bandwith somewhwere else!
Manish Dharwadker
I believe we have to start turning the tide somewhere..
-- Manish
John Caulfield
After all these replies and using observations of recent events in China, one must come to the
conclusion that although Chinas government is communist/socialist the economy has become unmistakeably
capitalist/free-trade democracy. If you ask the youth of China if they like the "capitalist" or
"Western" system they will undoubtably say "yes". Manufacturing and trade will bring prosperity to
the country and give the people of china more access to all the worlds goods and resources. Heck, I'm
no economist but I'll bet you that like Japan and Germany, China actually has a trade surplus. We
lazy Americans have better overall treatment of our workers, but we use a diproportionate percent of
the worlds resources and have a multi-billion dollar trade deficit. Maybee if Americans were willing
to work and make sacrifices like the Asians, we could balance our budget.
To get off my personal soapbox, with a growing and productive manufacturing based economy
China may be a good bet. Only hope for military stability when the lease is up on Hong Kong at the
end of the century......
My 0.01% worth,
John
Junchun Yu
<Netters,
< After all these replies and using observations of recent events in China,
< one must come to the conclusion that although Chinas government is
< communist/socialist the economy has become unmistakeably
< capitalist/free-trade democracy. If you ask the youth of China if they
< like the "capitalist" or "Western" system they will undoubtably say "yes".
You are right. But it seems that it is not so-called commie hardliner but
some Western now try to "sabotage" China's capitalistic/free-trade
democracy by boycutting China's stocks. Maybe USA should put copyright
on capitalism so that you guys can accuse China of violating your
intellectual properties by copying your capitalist experience.
Furthermore, human rights conception and democracy should not
be in the public domain either. If other countries want to become
democratic,they must pay royalties to USA. If they do not pay,no
democracy for them! Now it is very stupid of American to distribute
democracy and market economy idea to communist countries without
charging any fees. It is as guilty as passing the industry-technology
know-how to communist countries.
< Manufacturing and trade will bring prosperity to the country and give
< the people of china more access to all the worlds goods and resources.
< Heck, I'm no economist but I'll bet you that like Japan and Germany,
< China actually has a trade surplus. We lazy Americans have better
< overall treatment of our workers, but we use a diproportionate percent
< of the worlds resources and have a multi-billion dollar trade deficit.
< Maybee if Americans were willing to work and make sacrifices like the
< Asians, we could balance our budget.
< To get off my personal soapbox, with a growing and productive
< manufacturing based economy China may be a good bet. Only hope for
< military stability when the lease is up on Hong Kong at the
< end of the century......
<
<
If people are all reasonable and observeing like you do, the world
will be stable,let alone Hong Kong.
< My 0.01% worth,
<
< John
David A. Kaye
: no economist but I'll bet you that like Japan and Germany, China
: actually has a trade surplus. We : lazy Americans have better overall
: treatment of our workers, but we use a diproportionate percent of the
[....] maybe if
: Americans were willing to work and make sacrifices like the Asians, we
: could balance our budget.
Japan and Germany (two countries you cited) have BETTER working
conditions, HIGHER pay, BETTER benefits, and LONGER vacations than
Americans do. Americans are no lazy, and Americans do not deserve to
have even more benefits and wages taken away. The trouble is at the top
-- companies which care only about the next 90 days, the next quarterly
annual report.
There are U.S. companies which look further into the future and have good
benefits for their workers. Among them are Levi Strauss, Apple Computer,
Hewlett-Packard and Motorola. You'll note that they're also leaders in
their fields.
Mike Biondi
>: 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
>: |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
>: |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
>
>forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
>goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
>propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
>massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
>
>
really making any major contributions to these companies anyway, and it
gets me further ahead, so why not?
Dennis McCrohan
>>ought to quit shoving their own morals on 6000 year old cultures they
>>don't understand.
>
>Have you ever thought about the cliche "Put your money where
>your mouth is?" Apparently not, judging by your post.
As a caucasian-American married to a Chinese-American (born in Cambodia) and living
with and around mostly orientals of different origins, I can attest to stupidity
of applying American values to these, or any other societies. The whole concept
of indiviual liberties is foreign to them, and dangerous. It means putting
the welfare of a single person ahead of a whole society - not a smart thing
to do in places with their kind of population densities. In the United States
our frontier mentality and "endless spaces" Constitution is coming face to face
with the 21st century and a population of 250 million+. My prediction is that
we will change our model of society to be more like theirs, or perish into
a state of anarchy, civil war, and starvation.
Now, does this mean that I should go long or short on the food stocks?
-dm
Wen-Kai Tang
: In article <CI3Jr...@ra.nrl.navy.mil< ca...@nrl.navy.mil writes:
: <Netters,
: < After all these replies and using observations of recent events in China,
: < one must come to the conclusion that although Chinas government is
: < communist/socialist the economy has become unmistakeably
: < capitalist/free-trade democracy. If you ask the youth of China if they
: < like the "capitalist" or "Western" system they will undoubtably say "yes".
100% agree. In fact my trip to the PRC has led me to believed that the
PRC is the MOST CAPITALIST economy in the world. The logic is as follows :
Most economists in the world agree that HK is the most capitalist place
on earth (i.e. least amount of government intervention and regulation.) But
during my visit to HK last year, many businessmen in HK and from the ROC told
me that there were many thinks and business practices they could do in
Senzhen but not in HK. They concluded that Senzhen must then be the most
capitalist place on earth. That was where I got the thinking that the
CCP should be renamed the Chinese Capitalist Party.
Long Live the Chinese Capitalist Party !!! :)
--
******************************************** Wen-Kai(Tony) Tang,Yale University
* Abolish All Taxes And Tariffs NOW !!!!!! * 1588 Yale Station
* World Free Trade NOW !!!!!! * New Haven, CT 06520
********************************************(203)436-1285
Billy T. Lee
>Junchun Yu (yu...@grace.wharton.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: In article <CI3Jr...@ra.nrl.navy.mil< ca...@nrl.navy.mil writes:
>: <Netters,
>: < After all these replies and using observations of recent events in China,
>: < one must come to the conclusion that although Chinas government is
>: < communist/socialist the economy has become unmistakeably
>: < capitalist/free-trade democracy. If you ask the youth of China if they
>: < like the "capitalist" or "Western" system they will undoubtably say "yes".
>100% agree. In fact my trip to the PRC has led me to believed that the
>PRC is the MOST CAPITALIST economy in the world. The logic is as follows :
>Most economists in the world agree that HK is the most capitalist place
>on earth (i.e. least amount of government intervention and regulation.) But
>during my visit to HK last year, many businessmen in HK and from the ROC told
>me that there were many thinks and business practices they could do in
>Senzhen but not in HK. They concluded that Senzhen must then be the most
>capitalist place on earth. That was where I got the thinking that the
>Long Live the Chinese Capitalist Party !!! :)
That is why it is important the CCP does not become the new KMT. I think
without the intervention of the Clinton Administration, Corporate-America
would have tried to exploit China like they do with Central America. I
give Clinton credit for keeping his focus on the human rights issues,
something which Bush and Reagan would have ignored in the interest of
Corporate-America.
Stay away from investment visas! And be especially wary of theAmerica's
politically-correct special-interest groups. Essentially, they are
non-investors who expects to get rich off of China by demanding
free market shares. They do nothing for China, and we all know this
leads to the road of corruption.
***********************************************************************
Ted P. Lee
Just say no to investment visas! Invest in Asia!
Do not become illegals, else you teach the
children to become criminals and whores.
i forgot who i am!
the ever debate in purchasing 'home' made products versus foreign products gets
rather old..
i personally buy american cars and japanese electronics for their comfort (not
fuel milage) and the quality..
just a reminder of America history when each state were almost a new country,
it was the competition among other states that encouraged American growth
--that is, each state would try to make the best and cheapest merchandise to
insight competiveness..
competition is good, and several years ago, japanese products were the
cheapest thing on earth...now, the escalated japanese economy has a higher
inflation than America...
now...american products are cheaper to buy than japanese....it is what a
country does with this upper hand that makes industries successful.
--well, no more economics stuff, this is a stock newgroup..
:)
--
-----
kyle
cosc...@menudo.uh.edu
i forgot who i am!
as westerners, we sometimes forget that we try to impose the western
ideals and way of life to those that we think are less educated or
fortunate...
the chinese have their culture--a culture (i may add) that is older
than america and lasted longer than any democracy.
and now...the chinese have opened their gates and begin to trade with the
outside world. this change insighted from a healthy chinese economy can
be harversted by investors..
when it comes down to it, it's just money. and if we think that people are
mistreated, do we really know?
--that is if company 'a' poorly treates their employee's and everyone knows,
would it be correct to assume that company 'b' mistreats employees simply
because companies 'a' and 'b' are in the same country?
no more...eithical issues....and if money is the root of all evil, may i be
as wicked as the devil!
--
-----
kyle
cosc...@menudo.uh.edu
Wen-Kai Tang
: In article <1993Dec16.0...@cs.yale.edu> xta...@cs.yale.edu (Wen-Kai Tang) writes:
: >Junchun Yu (yu...@grace.wharton.upenn.edu) wrote:
: >: In article <CI3Jr...@ra.nrl.navy.mil< ca...@nrl.navy.mil writes:
: >: <Netters,
: >: < After all these replies and using observations of recent events in China,
: >: < one must come to the conclusion that although Chinas government is
: >: < communist/socialist the economy has become unmistakeably
: >: < capitalist/free-trade democracy. If you ask the youth of China if they
: >: < like the "capitalist" or "Western" system they will undoubtably say "yes".
:
: >100% agree. In fact my trip to the PRC has led me to believed that the
: >PRC is the MOST CAPITALIST economy in the world. The logic is as follows :
: >Most economists in the world agree that HK is the most capitalist place
: >on earth (i.e. least amount of government intervention and regulation.) But
: >during my visit to HK last year, many businessmen in HK and from the ROC told
: >me that there were many thinks and business practices they could do in
: >Senzhen but not in HK. They concluded that Senzhen must then be the most
: >capitalist place on earth. That was where I got the thinking that the
:
: >Long Live the Chinese Capitalist Party !!! :)
:
: That is why it is important the CCP does not become the new KMT. I think
: without the intervention of the Clinton Administration, Corporate-America
: would have tried to exploit China like they do with Central America. I
: give Clinton credit for keeping his focus on the human rights issues,
: something which Bush and Reagan would have ignored in the interest of
: Corporate-America.
But I think you got the position wrong. During the 1950s Latin America
and Central America had very anit-US policies which PREVENTED US investments.
As a result their economies stagnated. Then they allowed limited US
investments in the 1960s and 1970s. But the Latin American firms were so
weak and dominated by labor unions, they could not compete with the US.
The East Asian NICs and neo-NIC welcomes foreign investors to "exploit"
them. Result: the four tigers and ASEAN grew rapidly and now are investing
and "exploiting" other economies in the world.
As for human rights, the business lobby has already won in the US. I will
bet anything that MFN will be granted to the PRC in june/94. The US economy
will lose to much without passing it.
: Stay away from investment visas! And be especially wary of theAmerica's
: politically-correct special-interest groups. Essentially, they are
: non-investors who expects to get rich off of China by demanding
: free market shares. They do nothing for China, and we all know this
: leads to the road of corruption.
This was the line and policy of Mao. And the PRC economy stagnated in
the 1950s to 1970s. After allowing US, Japan, Europe, HK, ROC and others
to "exploit" the PRC in the 1980s, the PRC economy had the fastest growing
economy in the world. I do not think that foreign investment is some
miricle drug for an economy. I just think that by allowing foeign firms
to compete with PRC firms on a level playing field will drive the PRC
firms to be competitive and raise productivity.
: ***********************************************************************
: Ted P. Lee
: Just say no to investment visas! Invest in Asia!
: Do not become illegals, else you teach the
: children to become criminals and whores.
:
:
As a person from the ROC, I am 100% behind the KMT for is economic policies.
After visiting the PRC, I saw images of the 1950s-70s KMT in the CCP (read:
Chinese Capitalist Party). Now I support both the KMT and CCP. They are both
GREAT parties.
Min Hu
Wen-Kai Tang <xta...@cs.yale.edu> wrote:
>Billy T. Lee (ma...@eng.umd.edu) wrote:
>: In article <1993Dec16.0...@cs.yale.edu> xta...@cs.yale.edu (Wen-Kai Tang) writes:
>: >Junchun Yu (yu...@grace.wharton.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: >: In article <CI3Jr...@ra.nrl.navy.mil< ca...@nrl.navy.mil writes:
>: >: <Netters,
>
>and Central America had very anit-US policies which PREVENTED US investments.
>As a result their economies stagnated. Then they allowed limited US
>investments in the 1960s and 1970s. But the Latin American firms were so
>weak and dominated by labor unions, they could not compete with the US.
>
>The East Asian NICs and neo-NIC welcomes foreign investors to "exploit"
>them. Result: the four tigers and ASEAN grew rapidly and now are investing
>and "exploiting" other economies in the world.
>
I respect your economic viewpoint very much. But I also think that another
big difference between Latin America and East Asian NIC countires, is that
the gap between rich and poor is not as big in Asian NIC as was in Latin
America. That could be more important than the investment from US. Taiwan
allows foreigners buy their stocks only in a very recent years. If the
foreign investment is so important, Taiwan should have open stock market
long time ago.
If people follow the Chinese open policy carefully, you will find that
DXP's reform started from countryside. I believe that one of the great
impact of the reform was to narrow the the gap between "fairly" rich city
and "fairly or very" poor countryside. Suddenly, we have several hundreds
millions consumers (some times very eager) from countryside. And because
of the gap between rich and poor is not as big as in Latin America, the
country was fairly stable in the last 15 years. The new riches in China
has been very very recent years events (almost two to three years).
>As for human rights, the business lobby has already won in the US. I will
>bet anything that MFN will be granted to the PRC in june/94. The US economy
>will lose to much without passing it.
Totally agree with you. This is why Jiang Zeming did not give any concession
to Clinton in APEC(?). I am not sure that Clinton will be still in power
if he causes 150 thousands high paying jobs loses in USA. But the number
of new jobless (high paying) will be if the so called MFN were stripped off
for China. This time the odd ball is in Clinton's hand. He has to work
very hard to find excuse to give China MFN. Suggested reference: two days
ago, there was an article (kind of long interview with ZHU RONGJI) on the
Globe and Mail in Toronto.
>
>: Stay away from investment visas! And be especially wary of theAmerica's
>: politically-correct special-interest groups. Essentially, they are
>: non-investors who expects to get rich off of China by demanding
>: free market shares. They do nothing for China, and we all know this
>: leads to the road of corruption.
>
>This was the line and policy of Mao. And the PRC economy stagnated in
>the 1950s to 1970s. After allowing US, Japan, Europe, HK, ROC and others
>to "exploit" the PRC in the 1980s, the PRC economy had the fastest growing
>economy in the world. I do not think that foreign investment is some
>miricle drug for an economy. I just think that by allowing foeign firms
>to compete with PRC firms on a level playing field will drive the PRC
>firms to be competitive and raise productivity.
I am not very sure on this point. But it looks that fully independent
country like China, should not worry to much foreign investment (which
supposedly will exploit China). Here Canada has maybe the largest amount
of foreign investment in developed world, but Canadians are still firmly
in control their own economic and political interests. In another word,
China should and is most welcoming foreign investment. I do not think that
foreign investment can get everything they want. What I can see is that
foreign investment can only get what Chinese government is willing to
give.
One interesting point, China looks like the most liberal investment environment
in East Asia (maybe arguably). In Korea, a lot of joined venture with foreigner break down. In Japan, foreign technology will get into the market only after
Japanese develops their technology, example fiber optics. But China allows
Motorola set up the largest(?) celluar phone factory in Asia over there. Maybe
Chinese figure out that in economic arena, only strong guys matter. Nationality
does not matter. One example, JVC (Japan Victor Cooperation ?) was child
company of America Victor Cooperation. But now where is the AVC ? It was
taken by the child. Suppose later on Motorola China is much much big than
Motorola America, what will happen, who will be in control? Americans
in Motorola America or Chinese in Motorola China. Just a thought !! Any
disadvantage for Chinese doing this ? Hope someone with economic background
enlight further.
>
>
>: ***********************************************************************
>: Ted P. Lee
>: Just say no to investment visas! Invest in Asia!
>: Do not become illegals, else you teach the
>: children to become criminals and whores.
>:
>:
>
>
>As a person from the ROC, I am 100% behind the KMT for is economic policies.
>After visiting the PRC, I saw images of the 1950s-70s KMT in the CCP (read:
>Chinese Capitalist Party). Now I support both the KMT and CCP. They are both
>GREAT parties.
One thing that CCP is doing after 1978, is that they begin to learn instead
of "inventive". They have studied Yogsluvia, Hungry first. Then they studied
Taiwan, especially Singer-pore later on. When you learn, it is not easy to
make mistake. But when you invent, you are bound to make mistake. I consider
Russia is very "inventive". It looks that Russia finally decides to learn
something, they (Yelsin) are learning from Chile, political dictatorship and
economic liberal. But again, these are very different pots. Chile can be
dictated before, Russia is not so easy dictated again, at least not in the
degree as Chile.
When you give credits to KMT and CCP, you have to check thousands accumulated
civilization of Chinese. I recommend a book called "The History of Chinese
Civilization" by a very respectable (? depend on who you are) French scholar.
It is about 500 pages. He has a very good analysis about Chinese history,
especially the humiliating history of last century. His basic conclusion
is that for Chinese, they will be do thing well given them time and chances.
He believed that the west did not give China chances to recover, especially
after the Tai Ping Tian Guo uprising and opium trade, when China was weak
polically for the former and economically for the later. He has faith to
Chinese civilization.
>
>
>
>--
>******************************************** Wen-Kai(Tony) Tang,Yale University
>* Abolish All Taxes And Tariffs NOW !!!!!! * 1588 Yale Station
>* World Free Trade NOW !!!!!! * New Haven, CT 06520
>********************************************(203)436-1285
--
HU MIN, University of Toronto, Dept. of Physics
Toronto, Ontario, Canada. M5S 1A7
Email: h...@physics.utoronto.ca / h...@utordop.bitnet
YEO YEK CHONG
I am cross posting this to soc.culture.china where it should belong.
Kindly ***REMOVE*** from posting to misc.invest.stocks if you respond. For
those new to this topic, there is a claim that China has a secret economy
where she exploit her 20 million prison laborers. The reference post is
intensionaly put at the bottom so as not to bore people who hates to read
long article.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Excepts from The Economist, Oct 2 - 8 '93, pp 33-34
Also, and importantly, prisoners make a profit for the state. They are
the basis of China's secret economy...... Jean Pasqualini, who spent seven
years in a Chinese jail during Mao's time,..., jails play "an important
role in the national economy."..... Some human-rights groups that try to
come up with a believable number, as they....., work on a figure of about
20m (m = million)..... Mass public executions are commonplace...... At a
petty level, many offenders are jailed for offence for which in a western
country they would be let off with a caution. If 20m is correct, China's
prison population works out at 1,740 per 100,000 of population.... A
labour force of 20m is bigger than Spain's (15m) and not much smaller than
France's(24m)..... Factories attached to the lao gai produces cars,
lorries, tractors and a variety of smaller goods, among them textiles and
toys. There are lao gai miners, often mining dangerous minerals, such as
asbestos.....
Comments please.....
My comment:
**** NOTE IN CAPITAL LETTERS ******
Jean Pasqualini (NONE CHINESE) spent seven years.... during Mao's time. (MAO's TIME.) Some human-rights group (SOME human-rights group)... come up with
(COME UP WITH)..... If 20m (IF IF IF 20m) is correct.... 1,740....100,000
(TWO PERCENT of the entire Chinese population) is bigger than Spain (15m)
(Percent of populartion not even mentioned.) and not much smaller than
France's (24m) (AGAIN percent of population not mentioned)
In other words, my dad will be more than capable of feeding me and my other
49 sibblings. Dad really have a good life and really is an awfully productive
man. By the way, I haven't heard of China made cars in US and Southeast Asia.
Anybody care to comment about China's car export? How much of the work
force is employed by this industry? How much income does it bring to the
state compared to other industry?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From article <FOX.93De...@first.cs.nyu.edu>, by f...@graphics.cs.nyu.edu (David Fox):
> In article <2el9i5$s...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ach...@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Albert Cheng) writes:
>
> ] Make it roughly 18 millions male prisoners. So, 18/300 => 6%
> ] are in jail? I don't get that feeling so big a percentage are in jail
> ] when I am in China. Do the 20 millions include even traffic violation
> ] or drunkards that got lock up for a night?
>
> Well, it doesn't include the accountants executed a few months
> ago for graft...
>
> ] You can only do light industry (e.g. toys, clothings, ...) using prison
> ] labor. The three stocks mentioned are for tires and automobiles, so
> ] called heavy industry. It will be stupid to concentrate thousands of
> ] them in a big plant. It is hard to watch prisoners moving around big
> ] machinaries. With too many of them in one spot, it takes even more man
> ] power to watch them.
>
> All of this seems to be speculation on your part, directly
> contradicting the article I read in The Economist. Note that
> it is quite unlikely that those companies themselves use such
> labor, but probably the asbestos for the brake linings (if
> that is what they use) comes from mines using prison labor
> (asbestos mining can be very dangerous to your health)
> etc. etc.
>
> I have no direct knowledge of the matter, except that when
> I'm in China I get the feeling that the government could and
> would easily hide 20 million prisoners somewhere that I would
> never find them. I'll take a look when I go there on Sunday.
>
> Sorry if this doesn't seem to be misc.invest.stocks related,
> but it is just the nature of USENET to finish a discussion
> where it started. Use your kill files. Maybe I'll post more
> info from the article in a China newsgroup. Anyone interested?
>
> -david
--
Yeo Yek Chong
Computer Science Department
Oklahoma State University
Stillwater, Oklahoma, USA
Scott Ma
>PRC is the MOST CAPITALIST economy in the world. The logic is as follows :
>Most economists in the world agree that HK is the most capitalist place
>on earth (i.e. least amount of government intervention and regulation.) But
If you have some knowledge about Maxism, you might know that a real communist
country will have least amount of government intervention and regulation.
People work based on their ability but get what they need.
HAKKIM WONG
>In article <CI3Jr...@ra.nrl.navy.mil< ca...@nrl.navy.mil writes:
><Netters,
>< Heck, I'm no economist but I'll bet you that like Japan and Germany,
>< China actually has a trade surplus. We lazy Americans have better
Well, this is NOT true for the latest year.
It is the first trade deficit since 1989.
Aurelio Caliaro
: David A. Kaye (d...@crl.com) wrote:
: : John Caulfield (ca...@nrl.navy.mil) wrote:
: : Japan and Germany (two countries you cited) have BETTER working
: : Americans do. Americans are no lazy, and Americans do not deserve to
That with the higher pay is relative; you do not consider the price of life.
Products are much more expensive in Germany or Japan. It is right that Germany
has longer vacations; it has the industrialized world's longest. This is
partly because labor unions are very strong in Germany. On the other side you
see now that Germany lost very much competitivity, and it is one of the
countries in Europe among the worst shape. This is not only because of the
unification, but also for structural problems.
What you say about the short-term-thinking; it is not only like that because
of the managers. The managers do what the shareholders ask. It is a fact that
americans are far less constant in their opinions that European people (I
saw that also when Clinton won, and a few days later the public opinion had
COMPLETELY changed :-)). American shareholders are too easily impressed by
the newspapers; the shareholders are those that do not think in the long term!
: Take this somewhere else please... This newsgroup is for stocks.
Tell us where; as long as the discussion has affinity with stocks and there
is no other newsgroup, this is the place to put it.
Aurelio Caliaro
--
////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
stud. oec. publ. Aurelio Caliaro | cal...@avalon.unizh.ch
| cal...@amiga.icu.net.ch
President of the ICU, the Club | ita...@imp.ch
of Computer Science at the | DECNet: SATAN::CALIARO or EZINFO::ITALIAN
University of Zurich, |---------------------------------------------
Switzerland | Happy user of OS/2 2.1!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you have a VCR-Cassette of Porter? Please eMail me! I have a question on it!
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////////////////////////////
HAKKIM WONG
>civilization of Chinese. I recommend a book called "The History of Chinese
>Civilization" by a very respectable (? depend on who you are) French scholar.
>It is about 500 pages. He has a very good analysis about Chinese history,
Excellent points!!
I am just wondering if you could give us the name of the author??
I agree with you on all of your points.
Hakkim
Wen-Kai Tang
: In article <1993Dec16....@cs.yale.edu>,
I agree. But I feel that the unequal distribution of income in latin america
was due to the lack of foreign competition. Without foreign competition, elite
labor-unionist was able to gain a unusually large wage relative to productivity.
This made the local industries uncompetitive. Hence, the latin american economies
had to rely on raw-material exports for foreign exchange. This in turn slowed down
rural reform and made the income distribution problem worse.
: >As for human rights, the business lobby has already won in the US. I will
: >bet anything that MFN will be granted to the PRC in june/94. The US economy
: >will lose to much without passing it.
:
: Totally agree with you. This is why Jiang Zeming did not give any concession
: to Clinton in APEC(?). I am not sure that Clinton will be still in power
: if he causes 150 thousands high paying jobs loses in USA. But the number
: of new jobless (high paying) will be if the so called MFN were stripped off
: for China. This time the odd ball is in Clinton's hand. He has to work
: very hard to find excuse to give China MFN. Suggested reference: two days
: ago, there was an article (kind of long interview with ZHU RONGJI) on the
: Globe and Mail in Toronto.
Exactly !!
: >
: >: Stay away from investment visas! And be especially wary of theAmerica's
: >: politically-correct special-interest groups. Essentially, they are
: >: non-investors who expects to get rich off of China by demanding
: >: free market shares. They do nothing for China, and we all know this
: >: leads to the road of corruption.
: >
: >This was the line and policy of Mao. And the PRC economy stagnated in
: >the 1950s to 1970s. After allowing US, Japan, Europe, HK, ROC and others
: >to "exploit" the PRC in the 1980s, the PRC economy had the fastest growing
: >economy in the world. I do not think that foreign investment is some
: >miricle drug for an economy. I just think that by allowing foeign firms
: >to compete with PRC firms on a level playing field will drive the PRC
: >firms to be competitive and raise productivity.
:
: I am not very sure on this point. But it looks that fully independent
: country like China, should not worry to much foreign investment (which
: supposedly will exploit China). Here Canada has maybe the largest amount
: of foreign investment in developed world, but Canadians are still firmly
: in control their own economic and political interests. In another word,
: China should and is most welcoming foreign investment. I do not think that
: foreign investment can get everything they want. What I can see is that
: foreign investment can only get what Chinese government is willing to
: give.
I agree. I must add that the only way to get rich is to get "exploited", how
elese are you going to get tech. transfers. You have to "pay" for these
transfers, and the only payment you can offer the West if higher profits for
them in the short-run. But once you have a tech. base and no longer dependent
on foreign tech., like ROC, SIngapore, ect., then you export capital and "exploit"
others.
: One interesting point, China looks like the most liberal investment environment
: in East Asia (maybe arguably). In Korea, a lot of joined venture with foreigner break down. In Japan, foreign technology will get into the market only after
: Japanese develops their technology, example fiber optics. But China allows
: Motorola set up the largest(?) celluar phone factory in Asia over there. Maybe
: Chinese figure out that in economic arena, only strong guys matter. Nationality
: does not matter. One example, JVC (Japan Victor Cooperation ?) was child
: company of America Victor Cooperation. But now where is the AVC ? It was
: taken by the child. Suppose later on Motorola China is much much big than
: Motorola America, what will happen, who will be in control? Americans
: in Motorola America or Chinese in Motorola China. Just a thought !! Any
: disadvantage for Chinese doing this ? Hope someone with economic background
: enlight further.
:
Many economists I talked to said that the ROC-PRC type of development is proberly
better then the Japan-Korean model, at least for this stage of tech.-economic
development. Japan-Korean model is a model of "stategic" industries, which in
the world where "no man is an island", may be outdated. Note that Japan and
ROK has a much larger structure problems then the ROC over the last couple years.
: >
: >
: >: ***********************************************************************
I agree. I am just saying that the KMT (1950-93) and the CCP (1978-93) did a good
job on the economy, or at the least did not destroy the boom by poor policies. With
the poor leadership the Chinese have had in the last 200 years, I think we
should give both parties some credit for the improvement.
:
: --
: HU MIN, University of Toronto, Dept. of Physics
: Toronto, Ontario, Canada. M5S 1A7
: Email: h...@physics.utoronto.ca / h...@utordop.bitnet
:
Ilana Stern
> Andrew E Laska (la...@utdallas.edu) wrote:
> : David A. Kaye (d...@crl.com) wrote:
> : : John Caulfield (ca...@nrl.navy.mil) wrote:
> : : Japan and Germany (two countries you cited) have BETTER working
> : : conditions, HIGHER pay, BETTER benefits, and LONGER vacations than
> : : Americans do. Americans are no lazy, and Americans do not deserve to
>
> That with the higher pay is relative; you do not consider the price of life.
>
>
> Tell us where; as long as the discussion has affinity with stocks and there
> is no other newsgroup, this is the place to put it.
This discussion has no affinity with stocks.
Go to misc.jobs.misc, which often discusses this sort of stuff.
Please.
--
/\ "This technique probably only makes the difference between
\_][ serious injury and total disaster."
\________Ilana Stern dod#009 r.b. cliff swallow il...@ncar.ucar.edu____
PakTua
>In article <2ej5b9$8...@crl.crl.com> d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) writes:
>>: 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
>>: |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
>>: |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
>>: |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
>>
>>Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison labor and
>>forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
>>goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
>>propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
>>massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
>>
>>
>
>hit the road. I'm sure there is some nice eco-company you can invest
>in.
>
>Your buddy,
>jeff
>
>
>--
>Jeff Bentley
>jben...@crl.com
>
>If you're too busy to brew your own beer....you're too busy!
Let me just give my idea about the issue of prison labor. I don't see any
reason why prisoners should live a sedentary life in prison. Why should the
free people do all the work, and let the prisoners just sit around doing
nothing. These prisoners have done something very wrong, and yet they are
provided with free food and lodging. No wonder, people are happy to commit
crimes one after another. Let the work in prison, let them earn their food
and lodging. Why must the law-abiding people tahe care of the prisoners' food
and lodging.
When a developing country show a sign (a good sign) of developing, there is
bound to be a cry of foul by somebody from the supposedly industrialized
country. But, the companies which operate their subsidiary companies never
take that issue seriously. I remember watching a tv series a few months ago.
In Indonesia, Nike shoes workers can't even buy a pair of Nike shoes with
their monthly salaries. It is not the developing countries' fault alone, but
foreign investors are also to blame.
So, before blaming developing countries, look into the mirror first.
PakTua (My opinion is my ownopinion)
alkafri
>they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
>the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
>those stocks and comments?
Good.It is possible for you to give a little more details about these Chiness
Co. the volume, trading and background? Not necessary in that order.or do they
have bonds, preferred, warrants or just common stock.
Your highlight will be appreciated.
ThanX
Rgds
alkafri
******Merry X'mas and Happy New Year******
Tony Austin
: In article <FOX.93De...@graphics.cs.nyu.edu> f...@graphics.cs.nyu.edu (David Fox) writes:
: ] There was an article in The Economist about this that I can't
: ] seem to lay my hands on right now.
: Found it. October 2nd, 1993, page 33, "China's secret economy."
i Regarding slave labor: That is a free trade issue not a stock issue.
In regards to the moral aspects: that is up to the citizens in
China to sort out. Yes the masacare was an attrocity and if you
feel that China should not be supported in anyway for that then
don't invest. I for one feel this is a perfect opportunity to
induce a covert takeover of the suppressive regime by getting
them economically bonded to the west. In the long run I feel it
would be the high road in that capitalism would utterly seduce
the people thus creating a non-violent revolution.
Tony Austin.
"
SHAMIM,MUHAMMAD ARIF
(Billy T. Lee) writes:
>That is why it is important the CCP does not become the new KMT. I think
>without the intervention of the Clinton Administration, Corporate-America
>would have tried to exploit China like they do with Central America. I
>give Clinton credit for keeping his focus on the human rights issues,
Since when Americans genuinely became interested in human rights issues.
All foreigners know that the US govt raises these slogans of "human rights
violations" ONLY when its economic interests are at stake; or, at least,
when it has nothing to contribute or lose by the situation. For instance,
there are human rights violations in South Africa, Egypt, Iraq, Israael,
India, China, etc., and presently in Bosnia. Is US taking or took any
definite concrete actions against them?
Iraq used chemical weapons on its own citizens in 1985 and it was reported
to the US govt at that time, the US blatanly blamed Iran for that chemical
attack - not Saddam. Because, at that time it was in the US interest to
support Saddam against Iran. However, when Saddam became the "bad guy" in
1990, then the US came out with the confidential report accusing Iraq of
chemical weapon use against villagers - without admitting, of course, that
Iran was worngly blamed earlier.
In S Africa, blacks were denied their basic civil rights. What took so many
years to take or even threaten to take any concrete action against the govt.
And, upon a mere promise of voting rights to blacks, all the trade restrictions
were removed immediately. And, the friendship went on.
Please don't show so much concern with human rights in one century....
These slogans of human rights are just hoax trying to play the people
against their own nations.
We're all trying to forget bombing on innocent civilians of Hiroshima, Nagasaki,
Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Tripoli, Iraq and the Iranian airliner
taking off from an international civilian airport......
--
SHAMIM,MUHAMMAD ARIF
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt9593a
Internet: gt9...@prism.gatech.edu
Mike McNally
>These prisoners have done something very wrong...
Like say "I don't like DXP" out loud, or something equally heinous.
--
Mike McNally : m...@tivoli.com : Day Laborer : Tivoli Systems : Austin, TX
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember that all experimentation does not produce extrapolated results.
- k. pisichko
Steven Lin
>
Oh, long live ! With the spirit of Sun Yat-sen!
Junchun Yu
>ybp...@mothra.syr.edu (PakTua) writes:
>>These prisoners have done something very wrong...
>
>Like say "I don't like DXP" out loud, or something equally heinous.
>
To put wrong persons into jail is one issue, whether prisoners should
work or not is another issue. So you two guys are discussing about
different matters.
David Fox
] For example, would you avoid buying fruits and vegetables picked by some
] migrant farmers? If you know something about how the migrant farmers are
] treated, you wouldn't say anything about any prison labors. In many cases,
] the migrants comes out of the season oweing money!...
I agree with most of what you are saying except for this.
The problems of the migrant farm worker are serious but
hardly comparable to those of an inmate of the Chinese
slave labor camps. And in this country you don't even
have to pay for the bullet they kill you with!
Robert McNeice
|> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
|> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
|> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
|> I have followed them since they went public. Anyone interested in
|> those stocks and comments?
I bought the T Rowe Price New Asia Fund a couple of months ago.
It invests in the Far East - except Japan.
It's up about 50 - 60 % this year. I'm only up about 15% (sob)8-)
Bob
Ari Cohn
Jeff Bentley
>: 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
>: |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
>: |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
>
Albert Cheng
In article <2ej5b9$8...@crl.crl.com>, d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) writes:
>Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison labor and
>forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
>goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
>propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
>massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
I don't know. The car I drive is running on gas refined from oil
supporting an oppressive oil shiek who has a golden toliet. The food I
am eating was trucked here over the concrete highway that pushes
spicies to extinction. I have a hard time to decide if I
should use plastic grocery bags which kill sea turtles or paper
bags, their production results in chemical waste that is polluting
all our water source. My license plate is made by prison labor
which is racist because the prison population is over-represented
by some races not according to the general population.
Am I insensitive, hope not. But I just don't know what to do
in face of all these moral issues.
Ravi Subramaniam
>they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
>the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
>those stocks and comments?
I hope none of us will be interested in these stocks other than to
boycott them. The gains in these stocks represent the worst of
a budding capitalism, while at the same time contributing to the
breakdown of whatever social and political development that has been
made in rural China.
Are we to forget Tianamenn Square so soon? The Chinese government
has shown no inclination to follow basic human rights norms yet and will
not unless there is some international pressure.
Ravi.
David Fox
] >Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison labor and
] >forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
] >goods?
]
] Why don't you post that on a philosophy newsgroup? Americans
] ought to quit shoving their own morals on 6000 year old cultures they
] don't understand.
I hardly think that deciding how to invest your own money
is imposing anything on anyone.
-david
Ari Cohn
change Chinese labor practices? Remember, the government
has been quoted (I'm paraphrasing), "In a society of
more than a billion, the sacrifice of thousands is
acceptable."
Only responsible investing, in which large institutional
investors make their funding contingent on humane,
ecologically sustainable practices, will provide an
effective external incentive for Chinese businesses
to change. I liken the effect to the change that
pension funds in the U.S. (CalPERS in particular) have
when they actively seek change in management practices.
Albert Cheng
In article <FOX.93De...@graphics.cs.nyu.edu>, f...@graphics.cs.nyu.edu (David Fox) writes:
>It is certainly something we should be concerned about. China
>has about 20 million prisoners, that is more then four times
>the US rate of incarceration per capita, and the US rate is
>extremely high compared to the rest of the world. China has
>no laws regarding the labor conditions of prisoners. With this
>many people in prison, slave labor is an important part of
>China's economy.
20 millions? All at one time or over a period of time? One should
realize that prison population are usually adults of age 17-50. Though
China has 1.1 billion population, maybe 60% of them are from age
17-50. So, 660 million potential adults. Male population is lower
than female. So, about 300 million men. Prisoners are overwhelmly
male. Make it roughly 18 millions male prisoners. So, 18/300 => 6%
are in jail? I don't get that feeling so big a percentage are in jail
when I am in China. Do the 20 millions include even traffic violation
or drunkards that got lock up for a night?
> China can have the unpleasant and dangerous
>tasks of its economy performed at extremely low cost, so
>other Chinese companies have considerably lower costs than
>they would otherwise, or than they would in a country that
>did not practice wholesale slave labor.
You can only do light industry (e.g. toys, clothings, ...) using prison
labor. The three stocks mentioned are for tires and automobiles, so
called heavy industry. It will be stupid to concentrate thousands of
them in a big plant. It is hard to watch prisoners moving around big
machinaries. With too many of them in one spot, it takes even more man
power to watch them.
I agree one should be concerned about oppressive government, but
sentimental claims, are, well, sentimental. Yes, China's average labor
cost maybe one fifth of the comparable ones in USA. That does not
necessarily makes it evil. People working at fast food places earn
less than one fifth of many professionals. Is that necessarily evil?
Ari Cohn
>ought to quit shoving their own morals on 6000 year old cultures they
>don't understand.
Have you ever thought about the cliche "Put your money where
your mouth is?" Apparently not, judging by your post.
Cold-blooded investing and mindless consumerism are pointless,
because they lead to the destruction of the planet and enrich
only those with the initial ability to invest/own a business.
Witness the conditions at the south end of the Rio Grande
river along the Texas-Mexico border. It is more like a
scene from Ethiopia than America. Unceasing pollution by
companies upstream (American and Mexican) have produced
a thoroughly polluted river that carries dysententery and
typhoid.
Witness the garbage-heap dwellers in Manilla. Generations
of families live in and make their living from picking over
and reselling garbage scraps of the elite.
Witness the president of the Electrical Power Research
Institute, who says he wouldn't house his own family
near a transmission tower, argue against the 37 European
and 2 American studies indicating a correlation between
exposure to ELF (extremely low frequency) radiation and
cancer.
Witness the multi-decade economic pressure on South
Africa. Are you willing to argue that the world should
not have pressured the government to apply the basic
standards of human equality by any peaceful means?
If CalPERS and other large institutional investors can
force rate rollbacks in HMOs to benefit consumers, they
can also push for humane and ecologically sustainable
business practices. If you believe that capitalism can
promote the welfare of people as well as their wealth,
there is nothing incompatible about morality and investment.
Jonathan Allan
|> : |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
|> : |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
|> : |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
|>
|> forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
|> propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
|> massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
|>
positions. Pick one of those and invest as you see fit.
So the answer is: No, you can't make any moral judgments about
someone elses stock picks. And if you do, you get what you
deserve.
It should be noted that I hold no stock in China; I hold stocks
from the USA but only because I inherited them.
--
Jonathan Allan, Analysts International Corp.
=================================================================
* No one is responsible for this message, not even the poster. *
* If the world really needs more people on it, why do we get to *
* watch them starve to death on TV? !(Veritatis Splendor) *
Raghu Raghunathan
>Let me just give my idea about the issue of prison labor. I don't see any
>reason why prisoners should live a sedentary life in prison. Why should the
>free people do all the work, and let the prisoners just sit around doing
>nothing. These prisoners have done something very wrong, and yet they are
>provided with free food and lodging. No wonder, people are happy to commit
>crimes one after another. Let the work in prison, let them earn their food
>and lodging. Why must the law-abiding people tahe care of the prisoners' food
>and lodging.
>
>When a developing country show a sign (a good sign) of developing, there is
>bound to be a cry of foul by somebody from the supposedly industrialized
>country. But, the companies which operate their subsidiary companies never
>take that issue seriously. I remember watching a tv series a few months ago.
>In Indonesia, Nike shoes workers can't even buy a pair of Nike shoes with
>their monthly salaries. It is not the developing countries' fault alone, but
>foreign investors are also to blame.
>
>So, before blaming developing countries, look into the mirror first.
>
>PakTua (My opinion is my ownopinion)
>
>
I completely agree with this! Making prisoners do productive work
gives them a sense of belonging, a sense of self worth, and hopefully
some marketable skills once they get out of prison. And paying them
next to nothing is not immoral, after all they are supposed to be
paying back their debt to society, so think of the wages not paid to
them as their interest and principal payment on their debt to society!
Keeping prisoners idle in prison while they and their lawyers scheme
up ways of suing everyone in sight (for wrongful this and that, and
other minor technicalities), and negotiate absurd paroles is highly
immoral (in my opinion). This is what happens to many prisoners in
the U.S. The best way to rehabilitate prisoners is to give them
a sense of self worth by making them productive, and not teach them
that they are somehow victims of society deserving of a free handout.
Raghu.
William R. Watt
This is probably not the place to get into a discussion on slavery,
but i would like to suggest that those who think prisoners should
be rented out do a little research into the conditions under which
freed slaves in the US were imprisoned for vagrancy and put to
work in mine and building railroads in the south. Pretty grusome.
We all know that rented equipment is not looked after as well as
owned equipment. This applies to rented prison labour too.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Wm. R. Watt - Nepean, Ontario, Canada - ag...@freenet.carleton.ca
"not me, not me, not me" - mating call of the public employee
"me too, me too, me too" - mating call of the political candidate