Re: 9 month post-DX test results
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Hullo everyone,
>
> I've been lurking for ages, haven't forgotten any of you though. Anyways...
>
> Just got the latest results back from the docs:
>
> Aug 05 9.?% (D&E) Diagnosis
> Nov 05 5.5% (D&E&Metfartin)
> Feb 06 5.9% (D&E)
> May 06 6.0% (D&E)
Excellent.
> A1c is a lot higher than I'd like but pretty good considering, the doc
> is flabbergasted at the "low" numbers considering other diabetics at the
> practice.
The treatment goals for most guidelines is less than 7.0%
> FBG is usually 4.3 to 5.6 and no major (morning) liver dumps
> since January. My 2hr pp numbers suck sometimes but are a *lot* better
> than they were 6 months ago. IR is down considerably but fluctuates and
> I've lost 13kg since dx.
This **is** key.
It is possible that if you become lean&trim losing all visceral
adiposity that you will be cured of your diabetes.
> The cholesterol results are 6.4 and 0.7, I'm not sure which number is
> which. Any suggestions on interpreting these?
Would guess that your total cholesterol is 6.4 and your HDL-C is 0.7.
Such a profile would be consistent with metabolic syndrome (MetS) and
would indicate that you still have a significant amount of visceral
adiposity and/or are consuming significant amounts of trans fats.
> The numbers red-flagged so I'm at the docs very soon and expect that
> I'll be put on some meds for it. One question about statins though, if
> I start taking them is it likely that I'll ever be taken off them?
Yes, if you become lean&trim at you optimal weight.
> Dying of CHD is a family tradition on both sides.
Even more motivation for you to become lean&trim.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/hsada
out...@citynet.net
adiposity that you will be cured of your diabetes."
No, symptoms reversed and controlled, underlying metabolic disorder
remains and substantual glucose intake will show lack of "cure". Diabetes
is the disorder, not the diagnostic numbers reversed when good control is
achieved.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "It is possible that if you become lean&trim losing all visceral
> adiposity that you will be cured of your diabetes."
>
> No, symptoms reversed and controlled, underlying metabolic disorder
> remains and substantual glucose intake will show lack of "cure".
Incorrect.
> Diabetes
> is the disorder, not the diagnostic numbers reversed when good control is
> achieved.
Type 2 diabetes is an acquired disorder and not a primary congenital
one.
out...@citynet.net
one."
True, but irrelevant to the original claim of weight loss leading to a
"cure" of diabetes.
Even when well controlled and the diagnostic numbers reversed the
underlying disorder remains after weight loss, that is the point and the
original sources of the cascade of stages leading to the disorder do not
return to the starting point.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Type 2 diabetes is an acquired disorder and not a primary congenital
> one."
>
> True, but irrelevant to the original claim of weight loss leading to a
> "cure" of diabetes.
Actually the relevance is established with the basic understanding that
primary congenital disorders will not be amenable to environmental
influences such as the lifestyle change of eating less to become
lean&trim.
> Even when well controlled and the diagnostic numbers reversed the
> underlying disorder remains after weight loss,
The susceptibility, yes. The disorder, no.
> that is the point and the
> original sources of the cascade of stages leading to the disorder do not
> return to the starting point.
In my experience, they do in many instances.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/gj98a
out...@citynet.net
one." > > True, but irrelevant to the original claim of weight loss
leading to a > "cure" of diabetes.
Actually the relevance is established with the basic understanding that
primary congenital disorders will not be amenable to environmental
influences such as the lifestyle change of eating less to become
lean&trim.
me: Still irrelevant, there are many disorders that are not "cured" when
lifestyle change is made; such as weight loss and diabetes.
> Even when well controlled and the diagnostic numbers reversed the >
underlying disorder remains after weight loss,
The susceptibility, yes. The disorder, no.
me: both remain, have a controlled diabetic with reversed diagnostic
numbers eat an all pizza diet for two weeks within energy needs and see
their post meal and other numbers soar.
> that is the point and the > original sources of the cascade of stages
leading to the disorder do not > return to the starting point.
In my experience, they do in many instances.
me: subjective anecdotal examples are not accepted scientific evidence.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> >Andrew wrote:
> >
> > >"Type 2 diabetes is an acquired disorder and not a primary congenital
> > >one."
> >
> > True, but irrelevant to the original claim of weight loss
> > leading to a "cure" of diabetes.
>
> Actually the relevance is established with the basic understanding that
> primary congenital disorders will not be amenable to environmental
> influences such as the lifestyle change of eating less to become
> lean&trim.
>
> me: Still irrelevant, there are many disorders that are not "cured" when
> lifestyle change is made; such as weight loss
Weight loss is not a disorder.
> and diabetes.
Type 2 diabetes can be cured with permanent weight loss when visceral
adiposity is completely lost.
> > Even when well controlled and the diagnostic numbers reversed the
> > underlying disorder remains after weight loss,
>
> The susceptibility, yes. The disorder, no.
>
> me: both remain, have a controlled diabetic with reversed diagnostic
> numbers eat an all pizza diet for two weeks within energy needs and see
> their post meal and other numbers soar.
Anecdotal tales from a non-physician are meaningless.
> > that is the point and the > original sources of the cascade of stages
> leading to the disorder do not > return to the starting point.
>
> In my experience, they do in many instances.
>
> me: subjective anecdotal examples are not accepted scientific evidence.
This would not be a subjective anecdotal example.
out...@citynet.net
> lifestyle change is made; such as weight loss
Weight loss is not a disorder.
me: correct, but the above is a strawman for a claim not made, read
carefully please.
Type 2 diabetes can be cured with permanent weight loss when visceral
adiposity is completely lost.
Me incorrect, not as can be achieved by conventional weight loss by
dieting, evidence to the contrary please. To avoid such rhetorical tap
dancing as the above potentially contains, by what means is it lost?
Anecdotal tales from a non-physician are meaningless.
me: you assume too much without evidence, again. "Anecdotal tales" from a
physician are also meaningless, it is the appeal to an anecdote that is
the
fault not the messenger.
This would not be a subjective anecdotal example.
me: correct, just as soon as the peer reviewed evidence is produced, based
on accepted research methods, of which it is an example.
Doug Johnson
Chung, MD/PhD" <nos...@heartmdphd.com>
wrote:
>
>Anecdotal tales from a non-physician are meaningless.
>
>http://tinyurl.com/gj98a
>
I am going to have to respectfully
disagree. The AMA has been preaching
this lie for so long that people have
stopped analyzing what is really going
on. The most rigorous double blind
study is not a thing in the world but a
plethora of "anecdotal tales." Ten
thousand subjects saying "I have better
circulation after chelation therapy." is
simply ten thousand anecdotal tales. If
you don't believe it, just ask you
cardiovascular bypass surgeon.
dj
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> > me: Still irrelevant, there are many disorders that are not "cured" when
> > lifestyle change is made; such as weight loss
>
> Weight loss is not a disorder.
>
> me: correct, but the above is a strawman for a claim not made, read
> carefully please.
You grouped weight loss with diabetes as disorders.
> Type 2 diabetes can be cured with permanent weight loss when visceral
> adiposity is completely lost.
>
> Me incorrect, not as can be achieved by conventional weight loss by
> dieting, evidence to the contrary please.
Simply look at the results for those who have undergone bariatric
surgery.
out...@citynet.net
surgery."
Me: bingo, I knew you were heading there and when no rhetorical wiggle
room was left you had to spring it. It should be corrected to say some of
such surgery, not all approaches have the effect. Even then, the effect
is
most likely due to the increase in incretin hormone output because of
increased delivery of nutrition to the distal gut, which has in fact been
measured.
This is why some approaches don't work. In the end the claim that weight
loss is the cause of the effect is inaccurate, the weight loss is due to
very conventional reasons of decreased energy intake and is a secondary
effect and not the cause. It is dubious that a "cure" has been achieved in
the normal sense of that word. It is perhaps more accurate to say that
the
insulin/glucose balance has been established by overproduction of the
incretin effect, something also achieved with analogs of same and related
approaches. There is also one more approach similar in effect, do you know
it?
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Simply look at the results for those who have undergone bariatric
> surgery."
>
> Me: bingo, I knew you were heading there and when no rhetorical wiggle
> room was left you had to spring it. It should be corrected to say some of
> such surgery, not all approaches have the effect. Even then, the effect
> is
> most likely due to the increase in incretin hormone output because of
> increased delivery of nutrition to the distal gut, which has in fact been
> measured.
It is due to the loss of visceral adiposity and not increased incretin
hormone levels.
Type 2 diabetes does not arise from incretin hormone deficiency but
from visceral adiposity beyond a threshold that varies individually.
Visceral adiposity can be lost only by eating less.
This can be achieved either invasively with bariatric surgery or
non-invasively by using the 2PD-OMER Approach.
out...@citynet.net
me: incorrect, the increased control in glucose began right after the
surgery and before weight loss to any degree occurred. Incretin levels
were
elevated immediately.
Type 2 diabetes does not arise from incretin hormone deficiency but from
visceral adiposity beyond a threshold that varies individually.
me: only partially correct, there are multiple interacting cascading
factors leading to diabetes. Reduction in incretin production and receptor
sensitivity are critical parts of the cascade. Ultimate cause has yet to
be
established as to origin of the cascade.
Visceral adiposity can be lost only by eating less.
This can be achieved either invasively with bariatric surgery or
non-invasively by using the 2PD-OMER Approach.
me: correct, but irrelevant to the question, see above. The two pound diet
is irrelevant, diabetes is not a deficit of two pound meals.
Have you yet identified the third approach to achieve a similar effect in
addition to surgery and use of incretin analogs and related approaches?
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>Andrew wrote:
>
> > Type 2 diabetes does not arise from incretin hormone deficiency but from
> > visceral adiposity beyond a threshold that varies individually.
>
> me: only partially correct, there are multiple interacting cascading
> factors leading to diabetes. Reduction in incretin production and receptor
> sensitivity are critical parts of the cascade. Ultimate cause has yet to
> be
> established as to origin of the cascade.
Actually, the discerning know the ultimate cause is from the
inflammatory cytokines released by visceral adipocytes which arise from
overeating.
> > Visceral adiposity can be lost only by eating less.
>
> > This can be achieved either invasively with bariatric surgery or
> > non-invasively by using the 2PD-OMER Approach.
>
> me: correct, but irrelevant to the question, see above. The two pound diet
> is irrelevant, diabetes is not a deficit of two pound meals.
Actually relevant. See above.
> Have you yet identified the third approach to achieve a similar effect in
> addition to surgery and use of incretin analogs and related approaches?
Eating less than 32 ounces of food per day.
out...@citynet.net
inflammatory cytokines released by visceral adipocytes which arise from
overeating."
me: no, there are in fact probably multiple triggers that can cause the
cascade leading to diabetes. Consider the "lean diabetic" who was never
overweight a day of their life. Consider also that most overweight people
don't get diabetes. One size fits all answers fail in real world biology.
Where discernment fails science answers, least we return to the days of
reading chicken entrails etc. as diagnosis.
"Eating less than 32 ounces of food per day."
Me: no, weight loss by dieting doesn't achieve the glucose control
results achieved by surgery induced incretin production and/or use of
analogs of same and related approaches. Sorry, the above is not the third
approach that achieves similar status as do the incretin related
approaches, it's in the literature.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Actually, the discerning know the ultimate cause is from the
> inflammatory cytokines released by visceral adipocytes which arise from
> overeating."
>
> me: no, there are in fact probably multiple triggers that can cause the
> cascade leading to diabetes.
You'll need to make up your mind. The use of "in fact" clashes with
"probably" and "can."
Would suggest you read up on metabolic syndrome (MetS) and return to
pick up this discussion at a later time when it will likely be much
more meaningful for you.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/m3gnu
out...@citynet.net
"probably" and "can."
Would suggest you read up on metabolic syndrome (MetS) and return to pick
up this discussion at a later time when it will likely be much more
meaningful for you."
Me: sorry you find yourself entrapped in rhetorical tap dancing. If one
does science by searching for rhetorical wiggle room then one is doomed to
failure. In the end the evidence is the measure not the wiggling about
matters this and that.
You have asserted that weight loss leading to reduction of internal belly
fat will "cure" diabetes and offer bypass surgery as an example. In which
there is in fact the evidence to disprove your assertion. The glucose
control pattern that is reasserted is found soon after surgery and long
before significant weight loss and most surely internal belly fat is lost.
Weight loss due to energy restriction by conventional diet measures also
do not "cure" diabetes even with weight loss and internal belly fat.
Conventional weight loss doesn't lead to increased incretin production as
does by pass surgery.
The metabolic syndrome is the evidence of the multiple interrelated factor
cascade that can in some lead to diabetes. Given such a complex system, a
failure in any part to maintain normal ranges of feedback/forward control
of metabolic function can start the cascade.
Are you yet prepared to tell us the third, after bypass surgery and use of
incretin analogs and related that also has similar results? Its in the
literature.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "You'll need to make up your mind. The use of "in fact" clashes with
> "probably" and "can."
>
> Would suggest you read up on metabolic syndrome (MetS) and return to pick
> up this discussion at a later time when it will likely be much more
> meaningful for you."
>
> Me: sorry you find yourself entrapped in rhetorical tap dancing.
You are forgiven as far as I am concerned.
The truth has set me free long ago.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life... " -- LORD Jesus Christ.
To understand this, simply surf the link below my sig.
You will be in my prayers, dear neighbor.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://tinyurl.com/m3gnu
Ma¢k
<nos...@heartmdphd.com> Huffed and Puffed the following into the
madness of usenet:
>
>It is possible that if you become lean&trim losing all visceral
>adiposity that you will be cured of your diabetes.
>
and here chung is lying.
did you know chung advocates sprinkling nail polish remover on your
food to deter your appetite?
--
MâckŠŽ Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt
(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------
"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins
Jesus never hated anyone.
DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
.
out...@citynet.net
The truth has set me free long ago."
me: having failed in rhetorical tap dancing we now find another
rhetorical gambit, the dismissive gesture. Both are a sign of failure
from evidence and logic to maintain one's first assertion. I ask your
pardon for having sandbagged you into the bypass surgery example, from
which I knew the seeds of the counter evidence to your assertion could be
found.
Even from simple curiosity, leaving aside science, are you not intrested
in the third approach after surgery and medication to reassert incretin
control over glucose levels that achieves a similar effect? Are you
intrested in where to look in the literature? Please feel free to ask for
pointers.
Nico Kadel-Garcia
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <nos...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:1149786473.0...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
And grammar nitpicking conflicts with "in Christ's amazing love".
But hey, this is Chung. We've got a lot more to flame *him* about.
Nico Kadel-Garcia
"Ma¢k" <stopt...@shootspammers.com> wrote in message
news:pv0h821pss9q8gft8...@4ax.com...
> On 6 Jun 2006 09:37:47 -0700, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
> <nos...@heartmdphd.com> Huffed and Puffed the following into the
> madness of usenet:
>>
>>It is possible that if you become lean&trim losing all visceral
>>adiposity that you will be cured of your diabetes.
>>
>
> and here chung is lying.
>
> did you know chung advocates sprinkling nail polish remover on your
> food to deter your appetite?
Hadn't heard of this one from Chung. Do you have a reference to such a post,
to save us digging in Google?
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Was not grammar nitpicking but discerning the lack of truth.
> But hey, this is Chung. We've got a lot more to flame *him* about.
The lack of eye-contact during a conversation is a tell for those with
satan's mark emblazoned across their foreheads.
To understand this, simply surf the link under my sig.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/m3gnu
Em
"Nico Kadel-Garcia" <nka...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:efydnauVFtb8DhXZ...@comcast.com...
Quote: "Hyperketonemia suppresses appetite. There is no magic in this.
Simply spritz what you are eating with acetone (fingernail polish remover)
to
add the ketones and replicate their effect".
Ma¢k
and Puffed the following into the madness of usenet:
>
>"Nico Kadel-Garcia" <nka...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:efydnauVFtb8DhXZ...@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Ma¢k" <stopt...@shootspammers.com> wrote in message
>> news:pv0h821pss9q8gft8...@4ax.com...
>>> On 6 Jun 2006 09:37:47 -0700, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
>>> <nos...@heartmdphd.com> Huffed and Puffed the following into the
>>> madness of usenet:
>>>>
>>>>It is possible that if you become lean&trim losing all visceral
>>>>adiposity that you will be cured of your diabetes.
>>>>
>>>
>>> and here chung is lying.
>>>
>>> did you know chung advocates sprinkling nail polish remover on your
>>> food to deter your appetite?
>>
>> Hadn't heard of this one from Chung. Do you have a reference to such a
>> post, to save us digging in Google?
>>
>
>http://tinyurl.com/g4vbx
>
>Quote: "Hyperketonemia suppresses appetite. There is no magic in this.
>Simply spritz what you are eating with acetone (fingernail polish remover)
>to
>add the ketones and replicate their effect".
>
that's the one.
--
Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper