Obituary for David G. Groves
BigNascarFan
died February 28, 2004 after a long illness. Survivors include his
daughter, Dana Ripple. A memorial service will be held in Pennsylvania
at a later time. Ridout's Elmwood Chapel is directing. <>
Published in The Birmingham News on 3/1/2004.
Al Hardy
I am sorry to hear of that, Nas. As a mark of respect, how about silence on
this ng for 3 hours.
Al.
Beav
"BigNascarFan" <nascarNO...@att.net> wrote in message
news:40450D83...@att.net...
> GROVES, DAVID G., age 57, of Birmingham, Alabama formerly of Chicago,
> died February 28, 2004 after a long illness. Survivors include his
> daughter, Dana Ripple. A memorial service will be held in Pennsylvania
> at a later time. Ridout's Elmwood Chapel is directing. <>
> Published in The Birmingham News on 3/1/2004.
Thanks for the information Nas. Sad to hear. I'm not one for praying, (for
this reason!!) but I'll think of him.
Beav
Jim Dumas
The last I heard, he had an infection contracted while in the hospital after
his double bypass in early September last year. This information was from
late November.
The last time I saw him was April, 2002. He had lost weight from our
previous meeting in September 2000, when the DIF bylaws were written in
Washington, DC. He also had an open lesion on the ball of one of his feet
that was painful to walk on. I gave him a lecture about getting his BG
under control so he could get healthy. He responded that he was tired of
diabetes and didn't want to bother with the beast any longer (in stronger
language to get me off his back). I told him that he didn't have a choice,
as his health depended on it. But I didn't push the point.
We spent most of our time working on his network configuration and security.
But he refused to reload a backup for one of his compromised Windows
machnines, because he had too much to lose on the hard drive. This machine
could be reinfecting his other computers and he refused to clean it up. So
I gave up and suggested we go to dinner. This was when I noticed he didn't
eat much on his plate. On the way home I asked him if he was OK, since he
didn't eat much at dinner. He said his teeth hurt and he couldn't chew
much. He had a large amount of dental work done when he lived in Boston
(not Chicago, so "formerly of Boston" is correct). This dental work was
bothering him at dinner.
I left the next day thinking he was not healthy, but what could I do.
On the flip side of this Rock'n Roll record, Dave had a full life. One of
his early jobs out of college was for the Atlanta Federal Reserve, as he
was an accountant. This started his banking career and his specialty was
selling mortgages on the secondary market. He made large amounts of money
for the Senovis (sp?) Bank in Birmingham, AL, with his skill in this
secondary market. He also wrote software to do this selling in this
market. This selling has alittle black magic associated with it, as his
boss could not understand how he was so successful at it. So Dave was
quite accomplished in this arena.
In any case Nas, thanks for posting Dave's obit,
--
Jim Dumas
T1 4/86, background retinopathy, rarely hypoglycemic: <1/mo.
lispro+R+U+NPH daily, moderate exercise, typically <6% HbA1c
willbill
dave was right half the time, and when he was wrong,
he was so wrong you were never in any doubt about it
i hope i live another 30 years. if nothing else, to get
a sense of how history will judge him. my own
judgment is that he's right in there with Joslin.
i'll grant only that the medical community is
unlikely to see that any time soon
thank you for posting his obit
bill t1 since '57
sieweke
I've tried to get Groves to tone down his opinions since I've
been in DIF. But he refuses. So I must try some work-around and that
would
be the newsletter that would buffer the public from him. His work
with the
web site has kept him very busy and out of everybody's way. But he's
the
only one who knows anything about it.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CEAF72B.A692F800%40netzero.net&output=gplain
5/21/2002 15:12:46 -0400, Jim Dumas <j-d...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com>
wrote:
> There is a board meeting for DIF next month...
> So I'm thinking about volunteering to be the editor and write
> an article on mathematical modelling useful for insulin dosing...
> Since I'll be the editor, I'll strike a balance between
> the beef insulin arguments and synthetics that I use.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C4488A9.2DB63F4B%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
Groves is 10 years older that I am. I'm the youngest member of DIF
and will
inherit the reins. We have tax exempt status as of May 2001 or so.
So the
train is still in the station and the schedule is being worked out
now. My
current DIF duties are to keep order and focus Groves (impossible
task).
Groves is starting to lose his mobility with the auto accident side
leg. So
he may not be an active player in DIF soon.
The goal with you is just to keep the peace while the dust settles in
DIF.
Groves has no organizational skills, so that is my major function with
DIF
now. Start to set up the gears/procedures of the organization.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C44E28B.68D7D51D%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
I admit that I'm probably the DIF alpha. Once Groves has beef insulin
on the
shelves, DIF will disappear (or he will disappear more likely). He's
short
sighted. (I'll propose he head up beef insulin clinical trial funding
studies. This will be something he wants and then I'll drive the
bus.)
But IMO, DIF is necessary. We DMs need somebody watching out for us.
So I
would like DIF to be a permanent organization with some clout. As you
can
tell, I'm primarily a peace keeper myself. I would like that
philosophy of
check and balance to be ingrained in DIF.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C431F39.1EBDD4D5%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
Next, I agree that he jams the gears in any organization he comes in
contact
with. Even now, he trys to convert me to beef insulin when we see
each
other. But I'm stable and happy with what I'm doing so I blow him
off. This
causes some friction but it ends in a few minutes and then we get
something
productive done.
Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the public, just
email me
if he shows and I'll help to move him on to his official duties. I'll
probably set up a thread to suck him in, embarrass him in public and
this
will get him out of mhd for awhile.
You should also realize how deliberate and methodical I am by now. If
a side
argument will not help to achieve the goal, it gets shutdown.
Sorry to upset everybody, my mission is over, thanks,
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D73E0B6.C67AF668%40deSPAMALATORmindspring.com&output=gplain
AF the future of DIF, we are thinking about doing other things, like
separate SBIR work. So there is a movement to turn everything over to
Dave
Groves concerning DIF, and he can run the show in unity. So DIF may
quietly
disintegrate this fall.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C3F7041.29DEA428%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
I plan to keep Groves focused on you alone. I'm driving the bus.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=o028b.8656%24Yt.3234%40newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net&output=gplain
1) For Mary, only friends tell each other what they really think.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CACBEBA.5B827A58%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
I'm a member of DIF (Diabetics International Foundation).
Right now, it's focused on bringing beef and pork insulin back into
the US
market.
As I mentioned in the Beav threads in the Jan-Feb time frame, I'd like
to
make DIF into a watchdog organization for all DMs. I envision some
lobbyist
organization in Washington, DC, to promote our cause and to hold the
line
against the pharmaceutical companies.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CACCBF5.BE50250A%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
Others have asked me to contact
them when Groves is gone. So I'll add your name to that list. OK?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CAE15C1.FB770C1B%40netzero.net&output=gplain
ga...@xxx.netgee.com (Gary Ennis) wrote:
> to further make my point, I suggest we drop the subject
> until such a time when Mr. Groves and Ms. Hunt are no longer
> "in charge" / involved.
> jim dumas wrote:
>>
>> At this juncture, there is no other political organization to fill
this void
>> for the patient (we DMs). So it's better to keep your fingers on
this
>> democratic pulse. You have an inside track through me and it's
free (no
>> schilling!).
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CAF6F7E.EC57AA86%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
My approach with Groves is to ignore his views that are
not in common with my own and work on issues we can agree on. This
also
means my engine is idling because he wants to do everything himself.
Eventually, he'll ask for more help and I'll negotiate him away from
the
public. I'm a very patient person.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CB0F551.1F5EA86C%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
Moreover, it's
important to realize Mr Groves will not be here forever and the rest
of us
should learn how to work together in some political organization to
promote
our views.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=BhR6b.8776%24_26.3141%40newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net&output=gplain
My approach with this issue was to
preemptively release this information before his enemies could jump
in.
Honesty is the best policy.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=%25H26b.472%24BG6.293%40newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net&output=gplain
Next, in light of Dave Groves' health problems, I'm wondering where
DIF will
be going and if the "Gray Ribbon" organizational signature is worth
saving
for some future DM organization.
If you thought of yourself as a friend to him, am glad that we don't
know each other. Reading the ng and searching on Dave Groves and his
DIF says otherwise. There are many more references than these that
say so. A friend doesn't act like this-NIMHO.
Jim Dumas <j-dumas@.no.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<Tnc1c.30966$hm4....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
Alan Hardy
>
> nastiness snipped
>
David is dead, and now you jump on his grave. I think you are gutless.
Al.
Bay Area Dave
dave
Jim Dumas
> If you thought of yourself as a friend to him, am glad that we don't
> know each other. Reading the ng and searching on Dave Groves and his
> DIF says otherwise. There are many more references than these that
> say so. A friend doesn't act like this-NIMHO.
Hi Sieweke,
It's impossible to understand a decade relationship in 10 minutes of
Googling newsgroup posts. But I admit I was disappointed with DIF's single
focus on beef insulin issues.
When Dave asked me to help by becoming a founding board member of DIF, I
outlined my interests in working on clinical trial funding for academic
researchers to investigate inexpensive methods to delay or prevent
glycosylation, as with daily use of l-lysine, l-arginine or aspirin. I
argued that this would be useful to all DMs, T1s and T2s. It would also
never receive funding from the pharmaceutical companies, as there were no
patents on these compounds to provide a profit motive. My vision for DIF
was to do useful work that the professionals had overlooked or were unable
to do. Needless to say, we never got off the ground and I admit that I'm
angry at Dave for not using a democratic process at board meetings to seek
out the board's collective wisdom.
Even the Chairman of the Board, Dr Bob Blumenthal, the true owner of DIF,
could not get Dave to cooperate with his agenda. The board failed to
function and most of the members quit. Only Mary Hunt, after two
resignations/reinstatements has remained on the board. Dr Bob gave up and
was going to transfer the DIF organizational paperwork to Dave for $500 to
cover his startup costs to receive tax exempt status, etc. But I'm not
sure if he ever did this.
When I first came to MHD in December 2001, I was looking for Novolog
information. I soon realized the power of this global medium to discuss DM
issues. But I never pushed DIF's agenda on MHD. It was through an
argument with Gary Ennis that my DIF affiliation became public. I still
think MHD is the perfect medium for worldwide discussion of issues
concerning DMs. If some organization results from this interaction, so
much the better. But I no longer think DIF will be this vehicle. There is
just too much baggage from the past.
In any case, tell me how you came to know Dave Groves. Are you using CP
beef insulin as well?
And nice to meet you of course,
sieweke
reading the "Dave Groves in hospital" thread. My one previous post
well describes my opinion as to how his illness seemed to be an
opportunity for some people to divulge supposed aspects of his
personal life. Wasn't the one who originally posted the cited items
referred to as nastiness by someone else. Primary author of them is
Mr. Dumas, who said of his friend of 10 years:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C431F39.1EBDD4D5%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
"Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the public, just e
mail me if he shows and I'll help to move him along to his official
duties. I'll probably set up a thread to suck him in, embarrass him
in public and this will get him out of mhd for awhile."
I could read things like this for ten minutes or ten years and would
be of the same opinion about it--friends don't set friends up. The
issue has nothing to do with any aspect of diabetes. It has to do with
character.
.
Jim Dumas <j-dumas@.no.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<xdw1c.32177$hm4....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
Jim Dumas
> Learned about Mr. Groves while reading this ng about 6 months ago when
> reading the "Dave Groves in hospital" thread. My one previous post
> well describes my opinion as to how his illness seemed to be an
> opportunity for some people to divulge supposed aspects of his
> personal life. Wasn't the one who originally posted the cited items
> referred to as nastiness by someone else. Primary author of them is
> Mr. Dumas, who said of his friend of 10 years:
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C431F39.1EBDD4D5%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
>
> "Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the public, just e
> mail me if he shows and I'll help to move him along to his official
> duties. I'll probably set up a thread to suck him in, embarrass him
> in public and this will get him out of mhd for awhile."
>
> I could read things like this for ten minutes or ten years and would
> be of the same opinion about it--friends don't set friends up. The
> issue has nothing to do with any aspect of diabetes. It has to do with
> character.
We're all entitled to our opinions.
So you've never met Dave Groves.
You should reserve your opinions until you meet both parties in any
relationship. You should study how they interact before you pass judgement
on either party. If you make decisions with only half the required data,
you're not making an optimal decision.
In any case, the next question was: Do you use CP beef insulin? I take it
you don't.
This begs the question: Why are you in this thread?
sieweke
observance of interaction: Persons serving on juries do not observe
the person accused while the offense is committed; they must rely on
the evidence presented to them to come to their conclusions.
It is entirely possible for one to import beef insulin without having
ever met Mr. Groves.
The same could be asked of you: If you don't use beef insulin, what
are YOU doing in this thread? The ng is available to the public; all
threads with no "beef only" ones. My impression was that it was to
serve as a source of information for all those with diabetes whether
someone chose to post to it or not.
Again, I stand by my opinion that friendship is not setting someone up
or making disparaging remarks about someone. Seems like we do not
define it similarly and therefore will not be able to agree.
Jim Dumas <j-dumas@.no.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<NSP1c.33154$hm4....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
Bay Area Dave
this thread. Some guys just are too egotistical to admit they were
wrong. I always apologize when I goof up, because it's the sporting
thing to do! :) (Alan, are you reading this?)
dave
Alan
>and I see Alan never apologized to you for jumping on your first post to
>this thread. Some guys just are too egotistical to admit they were
>wrong. I always apologize when I goof up, because it's the sporting
>thing to do! :) (Alan, are you reading this?)
>
>dave
I'm reading - I never posted???
Seems to be my day for apologies - what did I do?
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
Bay Area Dave
dave
Jim Dumas
> Stand by the opinion that friends don't behave like this. Re:
> observance of interaction: Persons serving on juries do not observe
> the person accused while the offense is committed; they must rely on
> the evidence presented to them to come to their conclusions.
>
> It is entirely possible for one to import beef insulin without having
> ever met Mr. Groves.
>
> The same could be asked of you: If you don't use beef insulin, what
> are YOU doing in this thread? The ng is available to the public; all
> threads with no "beef only" ones. My impression was that it was to
> serve as a source of information for all those with diabetes whether
> someone chose to post to it or not.
>
> Again, I stand by my opinion that friendship is not setting someone up
> or making disparaging remarks about someone. Seems like we do not
> define it similarly and therefore will not be able to agree.
Dear Friend (I'm sure you don't mind),
Friendship is not a binary, on-or-off, black and white issue. There are
countless shades of gray.
But to keep you happy with your narrow mindset, Dave was not my friend.
That should end the argument. Best wishes,
Alan Mackenzie
> Alan Hardy, Alan; not YOU.
Nor me! But a happy Saturday to everybody!
> dave
> Alan wrote:
This is getting confusing!
--
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: aa...@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").
Bay Area Dave
dave
Beav
"sieweke" <sie...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:e101e4f3.04030...@posting.google.com...
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CEC18C8.F7A44FB2%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
>
> If you thought of yourself as a friend to him, am glad that we don't
> know each other.
Who actually said they were a friend of DG? And even if you're NOT a friend,
or if you don't happen to like a person, that doesn't mean you can't feel
sorry that he's died.
Reading the ng and searching on Dave Groves and his
> DIF says otherwise. There are many more references than these that
> say so. A friend doesn't act like this-NIMHO.
A friend doesn't act like what? Have discussion (heated or otherwise) on a
newsgroup? Dave Groves knew exactly what he was doing when he came onto the
newsgroups, but unfortunateyl things didn't pan out as he wanted them. That
doesn't make him a bad person or anyone who argued with him a bas person.
Friends DO argue, as do enemies, but the death of either friend nor foe is
still something to be unhappy about.
Beav
Beav
> sieweke wrote:
>
> > Learned about Mr. Groves while reading this ng about 6 months ago when
> > reading the "Dave Groves in hospital" thread. My one previous post
> > well describes my opinion as to how his illness seemed to be an
> > opportunity for some people to divulge supposed aspects of his
> > personal life. Wasn't the one who originally posted the cited items
> > referred to as nastiness by someone else. Primary author of them is
> > Mr. Dumas, who said of his friend of 10 years:
> >
> >
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C431F39.1EBDD4D5%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
> >
> > "Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the public, just e
> > mail me if he shows and I'll help to move him along to his official
> > duties. I'll probably set up a thread to suck him in, embarrass him
> > in public and this will get him out of mhd for awhile."
> >
> > I could read things like this for ten minutes or ten years and would
> > be of the same opinion about it--friends don't set friends up. The
> > issue has nothing to do with any aspect of diabetes. It has to do with
> > character.
>
> We're all entitled to our opinions.
>
> So you've never met Dave Groves.
>
> You should reserve your opinions until you meet both parties in any
> relationship.
That's a bit of a low blow Jim. It's abviously not going to happen is it?
You should study how they interact before you pass judgement
> on either party. If you make decisions with only half the required data,
> you're not making an optimal decision.
>
> In any case, the next question was: Do you use CP beef insulin? I take it
> you don't.
>
> This begs the question: Why are you in this thread?
But it's not your place to ask why ANYONE is involved in ANY thread is it?
Come on Jim, accept what S said. you did say you'd set DG up for an
embarrasing moment, and he's right, friends DON'T do that.
Beav
Beav
"Alan" <allor...@ozconnect.net> wrote in message
news:471i40511q1dm2nk4...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:55:19 GMT, Bay Area Dave <d...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >and I see Alan never apologized to you for jumping on your first post to
> >this thread. Some guys just are too egotistical to admit they were
> >wrong. I always apologize when I goof up, because it's the sporting
> >thing to do! :) (Alan, are you reading this?)
> >
> >dave
>
> I'm reading - I never posted???
> Seems to be my day for apologies - what did I do?
Nothing Al it was the other Alan:-)
Beav
Alan
>that's true! It wasn't you either!
>
>dave
I know we're on a friendly, first-name basis here, but just occasionally
surnames or a little extra info can be useful :-)
Jim Dumas
> Come on Jim, accept what S said. you did say you'd set DG up for an
> embarrasing moment, and he's right, friends DON'T do that.
Anybody with common sense knows you don't jump into a ng thread if you have
no idea what's going on, i.e., the significance of this death. S came in
as the curtain fell on the last act of this tragedy. Then S tries to
deduce what happened. S will never have the full picture and should just
stand clear. As an example, even you will not show your anger at Dave in
public, now that he's dead. Because it will serve no useful purpose now.
And you of all people should know that if you jump into a thread in a ng,
then you should expect to be challenged. It goes with the turf.
Lastly, friendship becomes complex when a political agenda binds these
people together. All the usual relationship rules no longer hold. This is
easy to see, just look at political running mates. They are not always
"best friends." (FDR and Truman, JFK and Johnson to name two.)
In any case, I think Dave's passing was a shock to all.
Nobody expected it to happen this soon,
Bay Area Dave
dave
Beav
> Beav wrote:
>
> > Come on Jim, accept what S said. you did say you'd set DG up for an
> > embarrasing moment, and he's right, friends DON'T do that.
>
> Anybody with common sense knows you don't jump into a ng thread if you
have
> no idea what's going on, i.e., the significance of this death.
Jim, you're squirming here. You did say you were going to set DG up and
friends DON'T do those things to each other. That's the WHOLE point of
sieweke's post.
S came in
> as the curtain fell on the last act of this tragedy.
The "whole thread" at that point was a mere 4 posts long (his was the 5th in
the thread)
Then S tries to
> deduce what happened.
I don't see it that way. There was no deducing to do. Granted, your previous
posts on DG were dug up, but that doesn't alter the fact that you said what
you said. It doesn't matter WHEN you said it, or WHY you said it, it matters
only that you DID say it, and as sieweke said, friends DON'T do that to each
other. I can't understand why you won't accept that.
S will never have the full picture and should just
> stand clear.
I disagree. A full picture isn't needed in this instance.
As an example, even you will not show your anger at Dave in
> public, now that he's dead. Because it will serve no useful purpose now.
Everyone that's ever seen any of mine and DG''s posts (to and about each
other) will know there was no love lost between us, and WHY, but I haven't
said he was ever a friend of mine, so I'm not likely to be accused of back
stabbing. EVERYTHING I've written about DG, I've said TO him on many
occasions. You on the other hand, posted to the NG that you'd set him up
KNOWING he wouldn't read the post because he no longer frequented the
newsgroup. That's back stabbing in my book, and then to call him a friend,
well, that's taking things a bit too far don't you think?
>
> And you of all people should know that if you jump into a thread in a ng,
> then you should expect to be challenged.
Indeed, and rightly so, but what sieweke quoted is still there for anyone to
see, and THIS thread isn't actually that complicated anyone with half a
brain couldn't work through in two minutes.
He's basically saying that you're a hypocrite, and if the original post on
this thread had come from me and I'd said "Dave Groves has gone and I'll
miss our discussions" (no mention of frienships) I'd expect a whole slew of
peple bombarding me with words a "little" stronger than "hypocrite".
Wouldn't you?
It goes with the turf.
>
> Lastly, friendship becomes complex when a political agenda binds these
> people together.
That isn't friendship Jim. You MAY heve been friendly with DG at some time
(but even friendly isn't friendship) but you blew that when you said you'd
set him up n front of the whole net-world.
All the usual relationship rules no longer hold. This is
> easy to see, just look at political running mates. They are not always
> "best friends." (FDR and Truman, JFK and Johnson to name two.)
Totally irrelevant Jim, this isn't a discussion about political running
mates, this is a discussion about YOU saying you were a FRIEND of Dave
Groves. Obviously you weren't.. If you're a friend of someone, you don't
tell his peers that you're going to set him up.
>
> In any case, I think Dave's passing was a shock to all.
Given his health problems over the last few years, it's not a shock or even
a surprise, but that doesn't make it any less palatable.
>
> Nobody expected it to happen this soon,
I don't know about that. I've thought he was living on borrowed time for a
long time now, and even more so when I heard he was so pissed off with the
whole diabetes thing. That generally leads to a lack of control with the
usual result.
Groves wasn't any friend of mine, in fact I don't think he was any friend of
the diabetic community at large (FAR too negatively focused in his approach
to the beef insulin issue), but it's still not a good day when we hear of
ANYONE we know shaking off his mortal coil.
Beav
BigNascarFan
> Groves wasn't any friend of mine, in fact I don't think he was any friend of
> the diabetic community at large (FAR too negatively focused in his approach
> to the beef insulin issue), but it's still not a good day when we hear of
> ANYONE we know shaking off his mortal coil.
>
I always got along with Dave and probably because I was using Beef
insulin.
He introduced me personally to C. Savage the past CEO of CP Pharma. He
hooked me up with J Hirst at IDDT.
I know he was irascible with non beef insulin using diabetics, but he
was consistent. Most of his invective with you Beav was his
intolerance of anything involving RDNA insulin. He actually
softened his tone about you, after I told him about our trip to Wales.
I still owe him for knowledge and I hope he rests in peace!
Jim Dumas
>
> "Jim Dumas" <j-dumas@.no.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:e006373f2529fe82...@news.bubbanews.com...
>> Beav wrote:
>>
>> > Come on Jim, accept what S said. you did say you'd set DG up for an
>> > embarrasing moment, and he's right, friends DON'T do that.
>>
>> Anybody with common sense knows you don't jump into a ng thread if you
> have
>> no idea what's going on, i.e., the significance of this death.
>
> Jim, you're squirming here. You did say you were going to set DG up and
> friends DON'T do those things to each other. That's the WHOLE point of
> sieweke's post.
I don't remember saying that I would "set up Dave." But I do remember
saying that I would try to move him away from MHD if he ever came here
because he was too disruptive. You do this by using embarassment as a tool
in a public forum like MHD. The end result (move him away from MHD) is
planned. But the method is unknown as it unfolds as an argument progresses.
I look at this as part of trying to keep the DIF image from getting worse
as Dave spouts off. He was his own worst enemy. In any case, friendship
ends as the ship begins to sink because of poor decisions.
> S came in
>> as the curtain fell on the last act of this tragedy.
>
> The "whole thread" at that point was a mere 4 posts long (his was the 5th
> in the thread)
I Googled back to S's first post in September's "Dave Groves in Hospital"
thread. It demonstrated a person without knowledge or interest in Dave's
beef insulin work. So the "curtain was falling" as S tried to understand
why this was important in MHD.
> Then S tries to
>> deduce what happened.
>
> I don't see it that way. There was no deducing to do. Granted, your
> previous posts on DG were dug up, but that doesn't alter the fact that you
> said what you said. It doesn't matter WHEN you said it, or WHY you said
> it, it matters only that you DID say it, and as sieweke said, friends
> DON'T do that to each other. I can't understand why you won't accept that.
I stand by all that I've said. The reasons were political posturing to move
away from damage Dave had done to DIF. So yes, I accept what I said. But
the why's are no longer friendship related. They are organizational
related.
> S will never have the full picture and should just
>> stand clear.
>
> I disagree. A full picture isn't needed in this instance.
Any sound decision requires all the information available. If you only get
part of the picture and take off on a tangent, you've done all a
disservice.
> As an example, even you will not show your anger at Dave in
>> public, now that he's dead. Because it will serve no useful purpose now.
>
> Everyone that's ever seen any of mine and DG''s posts (to and about each
> other) will know there was no love lost between us, and WHY, but I haven't
> said he was ever a friend of mine, so I'm not likely to be accused of back
> stabbing. EVERYTHING I've written about DG, I've said TO him on many
> occasions. You on the other hand, posted to the NG that you'd set him up
> KNOWING he wouldn't read the post because he no longer frequented the
> newsgroup. That's back stabbing in my book, and then to call him a friend,
> well, that's taking things a bit too far don't you think?
Again, friends with a political agenda are atypical friends. They do what
is necessary to get the job done. The political agenda governs. More
importantly, you're operating in a Machiavellian environment with
friendship secondary.
>> And you of all people should know that if you jump into a thread in a ng,
>> then you should expect to be challenged.
>
> Indeed, and rightly so, but what sieweke quoted is still there for anyone
> to see, and THIS thread isn't actually that complicated anyone with half a
> brain couldn't work through in two minutes.
Then I encourage all to look for themselves.
> He's basically saying that you're a hypocrite, and if the original post on
> this thread had come from me and I'd said "Dave Groves has gone and I'll
> miss our discussions" (no mention of frienships) I'd expect a whole slew
> of peple bombarding me with words a "little" stronger than "hypocrite".
> Wouldn't you?
Then I must be a hypocrite. All in the line of duty. The greater goal is
to make DIF into a more powerful organization. But this can't be done
unless it moves away from Dave's image. This is why I think a name change
is necessary.
> It goes with the turf.
>>
>> Lastly, friendship becomes complex when a political agenda binds these
>> people together.
>
> That isn't friendship Jim. You MAY heve been friendly with DG at some time
> (but even friendly isn't friendship) but you blew that when you said you'd
> set him up n front of the whole net-world.
Agreed. Politics and friendship don't mix well. And I admit, I play a game
of chess in an argument with people on newsgroups. If they fall into my
trap, then shame on them. That's the way these public forums work. It's a
political microcosm. This technique wins arguments and is used on friends
as well as enemies. So "set up" is independent of friendship.
> All the usual relationship rules no longer hold. This is
>> easy to see, just look at political running mates. They are not always
>> "best friends." (FDR and Truman, JFK and Johnson to name two.)
>
> Totally irrelevant Jim, this isn't a discussion about political running
> mates, this is a discussion about YOU saying you were a FRIEND of Dave
> Groves. Obviously you weren't.. If you're a friend of someone, you don't
> tell his peers that you're going to set him up.
DIF still has a political agenda and therefore it is relevent. The
organization needs public opinion to help its cause. As a test, would you
join DIF now that Dave has passed on? Or is his legacy still keeping
people away?
Next, friendship is an evolutionary process. Sometimes it ends abruptly as
mortal enemies. In my case with Dave, it remained on the fence for
political reasons. The organization was more important then differences
between people in the organization.
ASIDE: In light of the AARP's sell out on the Medicare bill this year, it
would seem more important then ever for some patient-based political
organization to get into Washington, DC. DIF was going in this direction
but it never focused on the majority needs.
So I rest my case,
Jim Dumas
> They do what is necessary to get the job done.
I just want to qualify this statement. "They do what is necessary to get
the job done _legally_."
In light of all the corporate fraud these days, it's important to be
specific. Thereby leaving no ambiguous statements for creative people to
capitalize on.
"Within legal bounds" is always implied in my statements,
Mary
first DIF meeting in DC where he tried to take over DIF even before it
was offically formed. You were kept on the board to keep and eye on.
The world knows your character now, by your own words. Resigned????
You were fired!
"Beav" <beavis....@ntloxoworld.com> wrote in message news:<104m2p9...@news.supernews.com>...
Beav
"BigNascarFan" <nascarNO...@att.net> wrote in message
news:404B2EA7...@att.net...
Nas
I see the passing of DG as I would any other acquaintance, that being
something to feel a loss about. I don't like to hear of anyone I know dying,
even if I don't particularly like them. I never disliked DG as a person
because I never KNEW him as a person, just as "the other side" of a
discussion/argument, and the battle lines between us were drawn over that
DG's defence of that Justin bloke, but we're all entitled to our opinions
On the insulin side of things, I've often said that DG should've used a more
positive argument on the beef issue, (sell it's good points) rather than
always using the negative aspects of GM insulins, by "selling" it's bad
points, and I've said it to him on a number of occasions, but he was stuck
in his own ways (aren't we all though)
I wish his surviving family members the best, and I too hope he rests in
peace and his rest is less problematic than his last few years here were.
Beav
Beav
> Beav wrote:
>
> >
> > "Jim Dumas" <j-dumas@.no.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote in message
> > news:e006373f2529fe82...@news.bubbanews.com...
> >> Beav wrote:
> >>
> >> > Come on Jim, accept what S said. you did say you'd set DG up for an
> >> > embarrasing moment, and he's right, friends DON'T do that.
> >>
> >> Anybody with common sense knows you don't jump into a ng thread if you
> > have
> >> no idea what's going on, i.e., the significance of this death.
> >
> > Jim, you're squirming here. You did say you were going to set DG up and
> > friends DON'T do those things to each other. That's the WHOLE point of
> > sieweke's post.
>
> I don't remember saying that I would "set up Dave."
Jim, let's not get into playing childish word games eh? You know EXACTLY
what you wrote (see the quote)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C431F39.1EBDD4D5%40dontSPAMMEmindspring.com&output=gplain
J.D. said....Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the public,
just
email me if he shows and I'll help to move him on to his official duties.
I'll
probably set up a thread to suck him in, embarrass him in public and
this will get him out of mhd for awhile.
------------------------------------------------------------
Now do you think that's the kind of things friends do to each other? I
don't, and sieweke doesn't either, which is why he pulled you. I think he
was right to do that and I think you ARE wrong to keep on arguing the
"finer" point.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
J.D. said....You should also realize how deliberate and methodical I am by
now.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is another part of your post and it shows EXACTLY how good a "friend"
you were to DG.
If
a side
argument will not help to achieve the goal, it gets shutdown.
Sorry to upset everybody, my mission is over, thanks,
But I do remember
> saying that I would try to move him away from MHD if he ever came here
> because he was too disruptive.
You said what you said Jim and it's there for all to see.
You do this by using embarassment as a tool
> in a public forum like MHD. The end result (move him away from MHD) is
> planned. But the method is unknown as it unfolds as an argument
progresses.
> I look at this as part of trying to keep the DIF image from getting worse
> as Dave spouts off. He was his own worst enemy. In any case, friendship
> ends as the ship begins to sink because of poor decisions.
>
>
> > S came in
> >> as the curtain fell on the last act of this tragedy.
> >
> > The "whole thread" at that point was a mere 4 posts long (his was the
5th
> > in the thread)
>
>
> I Googled back to S's first post in September's "Dave Groves in Hospital"
> thread. It demonstrated a person without knowledge or interest in Dave's
> beef insulin work.
So? Dave was more than a beef insulin advocate wasn't he?
So the "curtain was falling" as S tried to understand
> why this was important in MHD.
It was important because DG used to be a "member" here. It's sometimes
interesting to find out how past members are faring. In Daves case, not to
well at that time.
>
>
> > Then S tries to
> >> deduce what happened.
> >
> > I don't see it that way. There was no deducing to do. Granted, your
> > previous posts on DG were dug up, but that doesn't alter the fact that
you
> > said what you said. It doesn't matter WHEN you said it, or WHY you said
> > it, it matters only that you DID say it, and as sieweke said, friends
> > DON'T do that to each other. I can't understand why you won't accept
that.
>
> I stand by all that I've said. The reasons were political posturing to
move
> away from damage Dave had done to DIF. So yes, I accept what I said. But
> the why's are no longer friendship related. They are organizational
> related.
>
>
> > S will never have the full picture and should just
> >> stand clear.
> >
> > I disagree. A full picture isn't needed in this instance.
>
> Any sound decision requires all the information available.
That's a fair amount more squirming you're dong there Jim. Siewke's ONLY
issue was you calling yourself Daves friend. Plainly you're not, so why not
just admit it and this thread will go the way of all the others before it.
If you only get
> part of the picture and take off on a tangent, you've done all a
> disservice.
What other part of the picture "I was a friend of Dave Groves" IS there to
know? now if you'd said "I was a friend of Dave Groves UNTIL...... that
changes the whole slant, but you didn't.
>
>
> > As an example, even you will not show your anger at Dave in
> >> public, now that he's dead. Because it will serve no useful purpose
now.
> >
> > Everyone that's ever seen any of mine and DG''s posts (to and about each
> > other) will know there was no love lost between us, and WHY, but I
haven't
> > said he was ever a friend of mine, so I'm not likely to be accused of
back
> > stabbing. EVERYTHING I've written about DG, I've said TO him on many
> > occasions. You on the other hand, posted to the NG that you'd set him up
> > KNOWING he wouldn't read the post because he no longer frequented the
> > newsgroup. That's back stabbing in my book, and then to call him a
friend,
> > well, that's taking things a bit too far don't you think?
>
> Again, friends with a political agenda are atypical friends. They do what
> is necessary to get the job done. The political agenda governs. More
> importantly, you're operating in a Machiavellian environment with
> friendship secondary.
So you're not ACTUALY friends, you just feed off each other to further your
own ends. Count me the fuck out of that crap.
>
>
> >> And you of all people should know that if you jump into a thread in a
ng,
> >> then you should expect to be challenged.
> >
> > Indeed, and rightly so, but what sieweke quoted is still there for
anyone
> > to see, and THIS thread isn't actually that complicated anyone with half
a
> > brain couldn't work through in two minutes.
>
> Then I encourage all to look for themselves.
Sieweke saved them the trouble. He posted all the links in his post to you.
Perhaps you should've checked them.
>
>
> > He's basically saying that you're a hypocrite, and if the original post
on
> > this thread had come from me and I'd said "Dave Groves has gone and I'll
> > miss our discussions" (no mention of frienships) I'd expect a whole slew
> > of peple bombarding me with words a "little" stronger than "hypocrite".
> > Wouldn't you?
>
> Then I must be a hypocrite. All in the line of duty.
Sorry Jim, but that's bollocks.There IS no duty that requires hypocrisy.
(Hypocrisy is just a nice way of telling lies)
The greater goal is
> to make DIF into a more powerful organization. But this can't be done
> unless it moves away from Dave's image. This is why I think a name change
> is necessary.
This is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Muddy the waters all you
like, but I'll just put on astonger light, as will others.
>
>
> > It goes with the turf.
> >>
> >> Lastly, friendship becomes complex when a political agenda binds these
> >> people together.
> >
> > That isn't friendship Jim. You MAY heve been friendly with DG at some
time
> > (but even friendly isn't friendship) but you blew that when you said
you'd
> > set him up n front of the whole net-world.
>
> Agreed. Politics and friendship don't mix well. And I admit, I play a
game
> of chess in an argument with people on newsgroups. If they fall into my
> trap, then shame on them.
Jim, you're falling into the trap of actually believing you're in cntrol and
some sort of debating genious who thinks 20 moves in front of everyone.
You're not.
That's the way these public forums work. It's a
> political microcosm. This technique wins arguments and is used on friends
> as well as enemies. So "set up" is independent of friendship.
Phsycobabble. And morel bollocks too.
>
>
> > All the usual relationship rules no longer hold. This is
> >> easy to see, just look at political running mates. They are not always
> >> "best friends." (FDR and Truman, JFK and Johnson to name two.)
> >
> > Totally irrelevant Jim, this isn't a discussion about political running
> > mates, this is a discussion about YOU saying you were a FRIEND of Dave
> > Groves. Obviously you weren't.. If you're a friend of someone, you don't
> > tell his peers that you're going to set him up.
>
> DIF still has a political agenda and therefore it is relevent.
This discussion has nothing to do with the DIF. I realise this is a
political trick (never answer a question) but this isn't
misc.health.politics and you ain't no politician.
The
> organization needs public opinion to help its cause. As a test, would you
> join DIF now that Dave has passed on? Or is his legacy still keeping
> people away?
No way. Not while people who don't think twice about stabbing their
"friends" in the back are associated with it.
>
> Next, friendship is an evolutionary process. Sometimes it ends abruptly
as
> mortal enemies.
Indeed it does, but they don't carry on calling each other friends.
In my case with Dave, it remained on the fence for
> political reasons. The organization was more important then differences
> between people in the organization.
>
> ASIDE: In light of the AARP's sell out on the Medicare bill this year, it
> would seem more important then ever for some patient-based political
> organization to get into Washington, DC. DIF was going in this direction
> but it never focused on the majority needs.
Would that be because the majority "needs" are perfectly satisfied by GM
insulins? remember Jim, they ARE. it's only a tiny minority who actually
NEED animal derived insulins, and whn push comes to shove, they CAN get
them, even if they live in the states.
>
> So I rest my case,
Actually, what you did was try to deflect your case onto something
completely different. I answered, but I wasn't fooled.
Beav
Beav
> Jim Dumas wrote:
>
> > They do what is necessary to get the job done.
>
> I just want to qualify this statement. "They do what is necessary to get
> the job done _legally_."
But fuck "Morally" eh?
>
> In light of all the corporate fraud these days, it's important to be
> specific. Thereby leaving no ambiguous statements for creative people to
> capitalize on.
>
> "Within legal bounds" is always implied in my statements,
And like I say, fuck moral bounds?
Beav
Jim Dumas
Dear Beav,
It worked on you two years ago. It's an effective method and I'll continue
to use it.
> Now do you think that's the kind of things friends do to each other? I
> don't, and sieweke doesn't either, which is why he pulled you. I think he
> was right to do that and I think you ARE wrong to keep on arguing the
> "finer" point.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen friends beat the sh*t outta each other. So this is mild. It
really depends on the relationship. Some people aren't happy unless they
are in an argument with somebody. My exwife was like this, and Dave Groves
had this propensity. So friendship is in the eyes of the two beholders.
These two parties are all that count as the bond is only between them.
> J.D. said....You should also realize how deliberate and methodical I am by
> now.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is another part of your post and it shows EXACTLY how good a "friend"
> you were to DG.
>
> If
> a side
> argument will not help to achieve the goal, it gets shutdown.
>
> Sorry to upset everybody, my mission is over, thanks,
All these are true. When my mission is over I shut down the thread just as
I did in our argument two years ago. If a side argument is wasteful, it
gets shut down.
But this argument is useful. You're moving the cause forward unwittingly.
We're looking at the seed of some patient-based organization. This is
Dave's true contribution to the DM community.
> But I do remember
>> saying that I would try to move him away from MHD if he ever came here
>> because he was too disruptive.
>
> You said what you said Jim and it's there for all to see.
Indeed I did. And I'll do it all over the same way again.
> You do this by using embarassment as a tool
>> in a public forum like MHD. The end result (move him away from MHD) is
>> planned. But the method is unknown as it unfolds as an argument
> progresses.
>> I look at this as part of trying to keep the DIF image from getting worse
>> as Dave spouts off. He was his own worst enemy. In any case, friendship
>> ends as the ship begins to sink because of poor decisions.
>
>
>>
>>
>> > S came in
>> >> as the curtain fell on the last act of this tragedy.
>> >
>> > The "whole thread" at that point was a mere 4 posts long (his was the
> 5th
>> > in the thread)
>>
>>
>> I Googled back to S's first post in September's "Dave Groves in Hospital"
>> thread. It demonstrated a person without knowledge or interest in Dave's
>> beef insulin work.
>
> So? Dave was more than a beef insulin advocate wasn't he?
It was: 1) beef insulin, 2) a cure for diabetes; and, 3) support for T1s
with legal problems from hypoglycemic-mediated events like car accidents.
Then you must be squirming back. As I posted to Sieweke much earlier in
this thread, by his/her narrow definition, I was not Dave's friend. This
issue was resolved by that post and Sieweke fell silent. So you must have
missed that post.
> If you only get
>> part of the picture and take off on a tangent, you've done all a
>> disservice.
>
> What other part of the picture "I was a friend of Dave Groves" IS there to
> know? now if you'd said "I was a friend of Dave Groves UNTIL...... that
> changes the whole slant, but you didn't.
With Dave Groves, one day you were his best friend and the next day you were
his worst enemy. So it was difficult for anybody to know which day it was:
good or bad. If I summed the bad days, they were probably 75% of our
decade relationship. He was far more upset with me than I was with him.
You're doing a wonderful job, Beav.
>> > As an example, even you will not show your anger at Dave in
>> >> public, now that he's dead. Because it will serve no useful purpose
> now.
>> >
>> > Everyone that's ever seen any of mine and DG''s posts (to and about
>> > each other) will know there was no love lost between us, and WHY, but I
> haven't
>> > said he was ever a friend of mine, so I'm not likely to be accused of
> back
>> > stabbing. EVERYTHING I've written about DG, I've said TO him on many
>> > occasions. You on the other hand, posted to the NG that you'd set him
>> > up KNOWING he wouldn't read the post because he no longer frequented
>> > the newsgroup. That's back stabbing in my book, and then to call him a
> friend,
>> > well, that's taking things a bit too far don't you think?
>>
>> Again, friends with a political agenda are atypical friends. They do
>> what
>> is necessary to get the job done. The political agenda governs. More
>> importantly, you're operating in a Machiavellian environment with
>> friendship secondary.
>
> So you're not ACTUALY friends, you just feed off each other to further
> your own ends. Count me the fuck out of that crap.
Good. No skin off my nose.
>> >> And you of all people should know that if you jump into a thread in a
> ng,
>> >> then you should expect to be challenged.
>> >
>> > Indeed, and rightly so, but what sieweke quoted is still there for
> anyone
>> > to see, and THIS thread isn't actually that complicated anyone with
>> > half
> a
>> > brain couldn't work through in two minutes.
>>
>> Then I encourage all to look for themselves.
>
> Sieweke saved them the trouble. He posted all the links in his post to
> you. Perhaps you should've checked them.
>
>>
>>
>> > He's basically saying that you're a hypocrite, and if the original post
> on
>> > this thread had come from me and I'd said "Dave Groves has gone and
>> > I'll miss our discussions" (no mention of frienships) I'd expect a
>> > whole slew of peple bombarding me with words a "little" stronger than
>> > "hypocrite". Wouldn't you?
>>
>> Then I must be a hypocrite. All in the line of duty.
>
> Sorry Jim, but that's bollocks.There IS no duty that requires hypocrisy.
> (Hypocrisy is just a nice way of telling lies)
Everybody is a hypocritical in their daily life. It's a tool to get the
children to behave as in: "Do as I say and not as I do." Both you and
Sieweke are hypocritical on this issue with Dave Groves, as another
example. You both have cast the first stone. But in doing so, have judged
yourselves in the process. In any case, I admit that I'll be hypocritical
if it gets a job done. And I'm an engineer, we don't lie.
You keep squirming and you'll fall off your chair, Beav.
>> > All the usual relationship rules no longer hold. This is
>> >> easy to see, just look at political running mates. They are not
>> >> always
>> >> "best friends." (FDR and Truman, JFK and Johnson to name two.)
>> >
>> > Totally irrelevant Jim, this isn't a discussion about political running
>> > mates, this is a discussion about YOU saying you were a FRIEND of Dave
>> > Groves. Obviously you weren't.. If you're a friend of someone, you
>> > don't tell his peers that you're going to set him up.
>>
>> DIF still has a political agenda and therefore it is relevent.
>
> This discussion has nothing to do with the DIF. I realise this is a
> political trick (never answer a question) but this isn't
> misc.health.politics and you ain't no politician.
It doen't matter. The jury read it. And I admit I'm not a politician,
thank God.
> The
>> organization needs public opinion to help its cause. As a test, would
>> you
>> join DIF now that Dave has passed on? Or is his legacy still keeping
>> people away?
>
> No way. Not while people who don't think twice about stabbing their
> "friends" in the back are associated with it.
>
>>
>> Next, friendship is an evolutionary process. Sometimes it ends abruptly
> as
>> mortal enemies.
>
> Indeed it does, but they don't carry on calling each other friends.
Good point. But it was Gary Ennis that said I was Dave's friend.
> In my case with Dave, it remained on the fence for
>> political reasons. The organization was more important then differences
>> between people in the organization.
>>
>> ASIDE: In light of the AARP's sell out on the Medicare bill this year, it
>> would seem more important then ever for some patient-based political
>> organization to get into Washington, DC. DIF was going in this direction
>> but it never focused on the majority needs.
>
> Would that be because the majority "needs" are perfectly satisfied by GM
> insulins? remember Jim, they ARE. it's only a tiny minority who actually
> NEED animal derived insulins, and whn push comes to shove, they CAN get
> them, even if they live in the states.
>
>>
>> So I rest my case,
>
> Actually, what you did was try to deflect your case onto something
> completely different. I answered, but I wasn't fooled.
I never deflect. I stand and fight. But I use the opportunity to further
the cause: That of some patient-based organization.
And keep posting because I'm not done yet. Thanks as always,
Jim Dumas
Dear Beav,
Best wishes,
*~*WiseWords - WiseWords4Diabetics
> GROVES, DAVID G., age 57, of Birmingham, Alabama formerly of Chicago,
> died February 28, 2004 after a long illness. Survivors include his
> daughter, Dana Ripple. A memorial service will be held in Pennsylvania
> at a later time. Ridout's Elmwood Chapel is directing. <>
> Published in The Birmingham News on 3/1/2004.
>
> http://www.legacy.com/Link.asp?Id=LS01982328X
Jim Dumas
> For the record: Your "snake in the grass" tactics were known at the
> first DIF meeting in DC where he tried to take over DIF even before it
> was offically formed. You were kept on the board to keep and eye on.
> The world knows your character now, by your own words. Resigned????
> You were fired!
Dear Mary,
If you check your DIF bylaws, there is no provision for abrupt termination.
Board members must be voted off the board of directors and that never
happened.
What did happen was Dave had a temper tantrum, as usual, and said "You're
Fired!" But that was meaningless per the bylaws. I submitted a letter of
resignation to Dr. Bob Blumenthal, the chairman of the board and CEO of
DIF. He accepted it with heavy heart and my now wife was pleased as punch
because she thought I was wasting my time.
This was volunteer work. So fired is impossible,
sieweke
What seems to be bothering everybody, is that I'm still
friends with Groves. That doesn't mean I see eye-to-eye with Groves,
but at least 50% of the time, we don't argue.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C44F550.903FE163%40fuse.net&output=gplain
> The thread was more
> controlled without him.
Controlled? In what sense? I apologize if this offends you, but you
were
jumping around like a dual-personality off their meds. You probably
will claim
that this was planned. No need. This group includes humans from
every walk of
life, every intelligence level, and every humor level. Seldom can
anyone fool
all of us, either most of the time or all of the time.
This
> causes some friction but it ends in a few minutes and then we get something
> productive done.
This is called maturity. Most of us have learned this lesson long
ago. Those of
us that haven't, well, this group will gladly help us reach the goal.
> Now that you know I want to keep Groves away from the public,
I would think, from a representative (either volunteer or paid)
standpoint, that
it would be to your benefit to identify Dave's strong points and help
him to
develop those points. He does get attention. He is fervent in his
desires.
There is a gold mine there, if you know how to use it. But therein
lies the
key. I don't know your age, but I sure as hell feel like my mother
here. Sorry.
> just email me
> if he shows and I'll help to move him on to his official duties.
Absolutely no need. We enjoy a good discussion. Dave's presence
seems to always
guarantee this.
> I'll
> probably set up a thread to suck him in, embarrass him in public
Please don't. I always favor the underdog. And I really don't know
how I will
sleep given my feeling of favor versus my feeling of righteousness.
;o}
> I also hope you see how specific the
> conflict was and that (hopefully) nobody else got hurt in the process.
Yes, I can see it. However, the 'hurt' may come about because we,
most of us,
read all of the threads. And some of us are long-time friends.
Internet
friends, maybe, but still friends. And, as with all good friends, we
monitor if
any of us need anything. Even when we don't need the help (as with
Beav) we may
jump in just for the support.
> You should also realize how deliberate and methodical I am by now.
I am not sure that I do.
> If a side
> argument will not help to achieve the goal, it gets shutdown.
Claiming control of all the threads on this group?
> Sorry to upset everybody, my mission is over, thanks,
Dang, Jim. relax already. Mission? methodical? use? deliberate?
We are all
trying to get through this. But none of us will survive any longer
than our
bodies hold out. I mean it, relax. View us as your 'soon to be'
friends. No
need to use, or manipulate, or any of the other 'intimidation' type
terms you
choose to use. (Some of us have had some pretty strong manipulators
try in the
past. We came away stronger. I am not only speaking of the group,
here.)
There is enough knowledge and experience on this group to satisfy an
encyclopedia
writer! Sit back and revel in it.
Sorry, again, for sounding like my mom.
Judy
Type 1, 25+ years
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D7422D4.EEFE5653%40deSPAMALATORmindspring.com&output=gplain
I'll stay friends with Dave. But will not try to work with him
again,
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3E7A89DF.9C8FE5B5%40att.net&output=gplain
You never spoke highly of DG as a DIF person. Since you're
not an animal insulin person, refrain from criticising them.
With friends like you, he doesn't need enemies.
After a few green beers on Saint Patty's day, I resigned from DIF over
this
> issue of support for the Canadians.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a8d34ee7.0403071324.58433a2f%40posting.google.com&output=gplain
For the record: Your "snake in the grass" tactics were known at the
first DIF meeting in DC where he tried to take over DIF even before it
was offically formed. You were kept on the board to keep and eye on.
The world knows your character now, by your own words. Resigned????
You were fired!
From the links, looks like Beav and I are not alone in our defining of
friendship. You can't even decide if you were a friend of Mr. Groves
or not--in your own warped sense of it. Comparing the posts in this
thread, you claim to be, then claim that it was to further your own
means re: a patient-based DM organization. You called yourself a
friend of Mr. Groves in the links above--Gary Ennis was not the only
one. You also can't decide whether you are a politician or not; some
posts are nothing but politically oriented re: references, in this one
you say you are not a politician. Small wonder that the friendship
issue has been so difficult for you.
You indicated that you wished to end it and will say that you can call
me friend as you wish; know that the exact connotation is placed on it
with its use for me as it was for Mr. Groves. Amusing that someone
whose hypocrisy is so well-documented can try to turn around and
accuse others of it others where there's no basis found there. You
admit to hypocrisy if it gets the job done.
Ah, that old "line of duty" defense--didn't the SS also try it to
justify putting people into gas chambers?. They had a variation on
it, I think, called "just following orders".
Interesting to see that there are two versions of your leaving
DIF--yours is that you resigned, Mary Hunt posted here that you were
fired. So you are no longer with the organization, but you continue
to speak in your posts to this thread as you are, using the present
tense regarding DIF and planning a name change for an organization you
no longer have any part of. Hostile takeover of DIF in the works?
Why else worry about moving the organization away from Dave Groves'
image? For an organization which you described as too much baggage
from the past in this thread, you seem to be very concerned about what
to do with it.
Your aspirations are easy to see--a patient-based DM organization.
With the people skills you've demonstrated here re: friendship and
hypocrisy, how many people do you think are willing to become involved
with any organization you were part of? Can't think that many would
be part of an organization which believes that anything is necessary
or moral to get the so-called "job" done; with your value system, no
participants would ever know if they were next on the list to be on
the receiving line of one of them.
Your claims regarding such an organization are supposedly based on
service to the DM community. Your posts and scruples say that it's
only going to serve your ego and relentless quest for power. Pity the
DM's who might be caught between them!!
Jim Dumas <j-dumas@.no.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:<a9276fc1168d89a0...@news.bubbanews.com>...
Beav
????? WHAT "worked on me"? I do believe youre falling into that trap again
of believing your own publicity Jim.
>
>
> > Now do you think that's the kind of things friends do to each other? I
> > don't, and sieweke doesn't either, which is why he pulled you. I think
he
> > was right to do that and I think you ARE wrong to keep on arguing the
> > "finer" point.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've seen friends beat the sh*t outta each other. So this is mild. It
> really depends on the relationship. Some people aren't happy unless they
> are in an argument with somebody.
And that makes setting them up for a fall Ok in your book? Well not mine.
My exwife was like this, and Dave Groves
> had this propensity. So friendship is in the eyes of the two beholders.
But as you're very fond of saying, we're only getting half the story
(yours). Dave isn't here to defend himself so we're not getting the full
picture. Ergo it's a flawed picture (according to you)
> These two parties are all that count as the bond is only between them.
BOND??? Now you're REALLY stretching things.
>
>
> > J.D. said....You should also realize how deliberate and methodical I am
by
> > now.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > This is another part of your post and it shows EXACTLY how good a
"friend"
> > you were to DG.
> >
> > If
> > a side
> > argument will not help to achieve the goal, it gets shutdown.
> >
> > Sorry to upset everybody, my mission is over, thanks,
>
> All these are true. When my mission is over I shut down the thread just
as
> I did in our argument two years ago. If a side argument is wasteful, it
> gets shut down.
You don't shut things down Jim (that implies you have control, which you may
THINK you do, but.....) No, what YOU do is simply run away when the going
gets tough. I learned that a long time ago.
>
> But this argument is useful. You're moving the cause forward unwittingly.
There you go again, thinking you've made a superior move by getting me to
"unwittingly" do "something". I believe there's a name for people who think
along those lines ("Napoleonic" maybe) You purposely brought in the DIF as
an aside to deflect the issue. It didn't work but I didn't press the point.
> We're looking at the seed of some patient-based organization.
No Jim, YOU'RE doing that, no-one else is.
This is
> Dave's true contribution to the DM community.
If you like to think that, fine.
> > You said what you said Jim and it's there for all to see.
>
> Indeed I did. And I'll do it all over the same way again.
And that speaks volumes about your personality and ethics.
>
> >>
> >> I Googled back to S's first post in September's "Dave Groves in
Hospital"
> >> thread. It demonstrated a person without knowledge or interest in
Dave's
> >> beef insulin work.
> >
> > So? Dave was more than a beef insulin advocate wasn't he?
>
> It was: 1) beef insulin, 2) a cure for diabetes; and, 3) support for T1s
> with legal problems from hypoglycemic-mediated events like car accidents.
Dave Groves was something else too, he was also Dave Groves the person. You
seem to have forgotten that.
> >>
> >> Any sound decision requires all the information available.
> >
> > That's a fair amount more squirming you're dong there Jim. Siewke's ONLY
> > issue was you calling yourself Daves friend. Plainly you're not, so why
> > not just admit it and this thread will go the way of all the others
before
> > it.
>
> Then you must be squirming back.
But Jim, what have I got to squirm about? *I* never said Dave was my friend
and *I* never stabbed him in the back. I always worked out in the open and
if I had something to sat to Dave, I said it TO him, not ABOUT him. No
squirming needed from me.
As I posted to Sieweke much earlier in
> this thread, by his/her narrow definition, I was not Dave's friend. This
> issue was resolved by that post and Sieweke fell silent. So you must have
> missed that post.
You should know better than that Jim, I missed nothing and you know it.
>
>
> > If you only get
> >> part of the picture and take off on a tangent, you've done all a
> >> disservice.
> >
> > What other part of the picture "I was a friend of Dave Groves" IS there
to
> > know? now if you'd said "I was a friend of Dave Groves UNTIL...... that
> > changes the whole slant, but you didn't.
>
> With Dave Groves, one day you were his best friend and the next day you
were
> his worst enemy.
That's a load of bollocks if ever I heard it. Friends argue, friends fall
out, firends make up, but friends do NOT stab each other in he back for ANY
reason. If they do, they're no longer friends and shouldn't CALL themselves
friends.
So it was difficult for anybody to know which day it was:
> good or bad. If I summed the bad days, they were probably 75% of our
> decade relationship. He was far more upset with me than I was with him.
I can't POSSIBLY imagine why that would be!
>
> You're doing a wonderful job, Beav.
If keeping you in line was my job, I'd agree.
>
> >>
> >> Again, friends with a political agenda are atypical friends. They do
> >> what
> >> is necessary to get the job done. The political agenda governs. More
> >> importantly, you're operating in a Machiavellian environment with
> >> friendship secondary.
> >
> > So you're not ACTUALY friends, you just feed off each other to further
> > your own ends. Count me the fuck out of that crap.
>
> Good. No skin off my nose.
Weren't you asking me to join you a day ago?
>
> >> Then I must be a hypocrite. All in the line of duty.
> >
> > Sorry Jim, but that's bollocks.There IS no duty that requires hypocrisy.
> > (Hypocrisy is just a nice way of telling lies)
>
> Everybody is a hypocritical in their daily life.
They are? I must be unique then.
It's a tool to get the
> children to behave as in: "Do as I say and not as I do."
And everybody says that? I must ask my own son when I ever did. I suspect
he'll have a hard time telling me when.
Both you and
> Sieweke are hypocritical on this issue with Dave Groves, as another
> example. You both have cast the first stone.
Pray tell which stone it was EITHER of us cast. I for one would be VERY
interested.
But in doing so, have judged
> yourselves in the process. In any case, I admit that I'll be hypocritical
> if it gets a job done. And I'm an engineer, we don't lie.
You tell the world you're DG's friend, then stab him in the back and you
then tell us you don't tell LIES??? You must be living on a different
reality to the rest of us Jim.
>
>
> > The greater goal is
> >> to make DIF into a more powerful organization. But this can't be done
> >> unless it moves away from Dave's image. This is why I think a name
> >> change is necessary.
> >
> > This is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Muddy the waters all you
> > like, but I'll just put on astonger light, as will others.
btw, is there where I'm supposed to have "unwittingly" propped up your
cause? Like I thought, you're living in dreamland.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Agreed. Politics and friendship don't mix well. And I admit, I play a
> > game
> >> of chess in an argument with people on newsgroups. If they fall into
my
> >> trap, then shame on them.
> >
> > Jim, you're falling into the trap of actually believing you're in cntrol
> > and some sort of debating genious who thinks 20 moves in front of
> > everyone. You're not.
> >
> > That's the way these public forums work. It's a
> >> political microcosm. This technique wins arguments and is used on
> >> friends
> >> as well as enemies. So "set up" is independent of friendship.
> >
> > Phsycobabble. And morel bollocks too.
>
> You keep squirming and you'll fall off your chair, Beav.
You can't even generate your own comebacks Jim, how on earth can you believe
you're such a smart guy that you can run rings around the world? Like I've
already said, WHY would I need to squirm.
>
>
> >> > All the usual relationship rules no longer hold. This is
> >> >> easy to see, just look at political running mates. They are not
> >> >> always
> >> >> "best friends." (FDR and Truman, JFK and Johnson to name two.)
> >> >
> >> > Totally irrelevant Jim, this isn't a discussion about political
running
> >> > mates, this is a discussion about YOU saying you were a FRIEND of
Dave
> >> > Groves. Obviously you weren't.. If you're a friend of someone, you
> >> > don't tell his peers that you're going to set him up.
> >>
> >> DIF still has a political agenda and therefore it is relevent.
> >
> > This discussion has nothing to do with the DIF. I realise this is a
> > political trick (never answer a question) but this isn't
> > misc.health.politics and you ain't no politician.
>
> It doen't matter. The jury read it. And I admit I'm not a politician,
> thank God.
Probably because you've never been approached by any decent political party.
I think you'd JUMP at the chance.
>
>
> > The
> >> organization needs public opinion to help its cause. As a test, would
> >> you
> >> join DIF now that Dave has passed on?
Is it here that I should quote you again? Go on then, I will... "No skin off
my nose".
Or is his legacy still keeping
> >> people away?
> >
> > No way. Not while people who don't think twice about stabbing their
> > "friends" in the back are associated with it.
I notice you didn't comment Jim.
> >
> >>
> >> Next, friendship is an evolutionary process. Sometimes it ends
abruptly
> > as
> >> mortal enemies.
> >
> > Indeed it does, but they don't carry on calling each other friends.
>
> Good point. But it was Gary Ennis that said I was Dave's friend.
Maybe you should've added "as well"? Are you now saying that YOU never said
it?
>
>
> > In my case with Dave, it remained on the fence for
> >> political reasons. The organization was more important then
differences
> >> between people in the organization.
> >>
> >> ASIDE: In light of the AARP's sell out on the Medicare bill this year,
it
> >> would seem more important then ever for some patient-based political
> >> organization to get into Washington, DC. DIF was going in this
direction
> >> but it never focused on the majority needs.
> >
> > Would that be because the majority "needs" are perfectly satisfied by GM
> > insulins? remember Jim, they ARE. it's only a tiny minority who actually
> > NEED animal derived insulins, and whn push comes to shove, they CAN get
> > them, even if they live in the states.
> >
> >>
> >> So I rest my case,
> >
> > Actually, what you did was try to deflect your case onto something
> > completely different. I answered, but I wasn't fooled.
>
> I never deflect.
You've even tried to deflect it further by attempting to make someone
(anyone) believe that you suckered ME into "unwittingly" helping your cause.
Jim, you're simply digging a bigger and deeper hole for yourself.
I stand and fight.
And then you run away. Yu call it "shutting down a thread", but in reality
(the REAL reality) you run away.
But I use the opportunity to further
> the cause: That of some patient-based organization.
And you deflect (sorry, ATTEMPT to deflect) discussions away from their
original point when you know you're in the wrong. This being a perfect
example.
>
> And keep posting because I'm not done yet.
Oh, so YOU'RE not done? Well bugger me, Ive got to hang around 'til it suits
YOU? Keep on dreaming Jim.
Thanks as always,
Cop out city sign off.
Beav
Beav
> Mary wrote:
>
> > For the record: Your "snake in the grass" tactics were known at the
> > first DIF meeting in DC where he tried to take over DIF even before it
> > was offically formed. You were kept on the board to keep and eye on.
> > The world knows your character now, by your own words. Resigned????
> > You were fired!
>
> Dear Mary,
>
> If you check your DIF bylaws, there is no provision for abrupt
termination.
> Board members must be voted off the board of directors and that never
> happened.
>
> What did happen was Dave had a temper tantrum, as usual, and said "You're
> Fired!" But that was meaningless per the bylaws. I submitted a letter of
> resignation to Dr. Bob Blumenthal, the chairman of the board and CEO of
> DIF. He accepted it with heavy heart and my now wife was pleased as punch
> because she thought I was wasting my time.
>
> This was volunteer work. So fired is impossible,
Mmmmmm, you have a point Jim, getting fired from a voluntary organisation IS
difficult, but it's becoming obvious that if it WERE possible, you'd have
been out on your ear faster than a rat up a drainpipe, yet only yesterday
you were asking me to JOIN you in an organisation you no longer belong to?
What the fuck was THAT all about?
Now I don't know if you wre fired off, or if if you resigned, but making
that offer seems a little strange wouldn't you say?
Beav
Beav
"*~*WiseWords - WiseWords4Diabetics"
<WiseWords_f...@EmailAccount.com> wrote in message
news:5153de90.04030...@posting.google.com...
The yahoo link didn't work Wiseone:)
Beav
Jim Dumas
That's correct. I don't belong to DIF and I'd like to know if you'd join.
> Now I don't know if you wre fired off, or if if you resigned, but making
> that offer seems a little strange wouldn't you say?
No. Dr Bob has asked for my input on how to proceed from here. So I'm
polling the public.
So what's your response to joining DIF?
Jim Dumas
> What...
It's all water over the dam now. My recommendation is don't join DIF if it
has nothing to offer you.
AF age, I'm 49 and will turn 50 in July. I've decided not to join the AARP
for obvious reasons.
Best wishes,
Judy
Link worked for me here at midnight.
And thanks for it. I felt as if I knew Dave, even if I had never met him
face to face. But this reminds me of reading a book and then later seeing
the movie made from it. Nothing like I imagined him.
As I would write and read and think about Dave's issues, I pictured him (as
I do everyone on here) in my mind. And I am sorry, but this picture on
Yahoo is wrong. I liked my picture better.
I will miss Dave's forays into politics, law, research, trade, etc. I
seldom agreed with him, but always listened to his side. Made me think on
some occasions when I thought I had already made up my mind.
The obit says Dave was 57, the Yahoo personal says he was 59, whenever that
was posted. Some days it does feel like we must be older than we are.
(We know you don't care for praying, Beav. But you know I try.)
I will keep Dave in my prayers (which for me are my thoughts).
Judy
Type 1, 30 years
>
Beav
That wasn't what you asked.
>
>
> > Now I don't know if you wre fired off, or if if you resigned, but making
> > that offer seems a little strange wouldn't you say?
>
> No. Dr Bob has asked for my input on how to proceed from here. So I'm
> polling the public.
I don't see much evidence of that Jim. I mean let's face it, I'm not the
only person on this NG am I? I haven't seen you make any similar offer to
anyone else.
>
> So what's your response to joining DIF?
You saw my response and chose not to take it any further. IIRC (and somehow
I suspect I do) your reply to my response was "No skin off my nose", but you
failed miserably to mention the fact tthat you weren't part of the DIF
anymore. Frankly, I'm at a loss as to what to think about you anymore.
You say you're a friend of DG, when it's obviously not true.
You say you'll stab people in the back if it helps your cause
You say hypocrisy is acceptable.
You ask me to join "your" organisation when you don't even belong to it.
You fail to even mention you're not longer a part of it, but write in such a
way as to delude everyone into thinking you are
You then say it's no skin off your nose when I replied that I wouldn't,
which again is obviously not the case.
You "say" Dr Bob has asked for your input (but we've no evidence of that)
And finally you SAY you're polling the public when in fact, only ONE person
has been polled.
So tell me, what SHOULD I think?
Beav
Beav
"Judy" <J...@whereamI.net> wrote in message
news:404d536c$0$82198$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net...
>
> "Beav" <beavis....@ntloxoworld.com> wrote in message
> news:104q670...@news.supernews.com...
> >
> > "*~*WiseWords - WiseWords4Diabetics"
> > <WiseWords_f...@EmailAccount.com> wrote in message
> > news:5153de90.04030...@posting.google.com...
> > > BigNascarFan <nascarNO...@att.net> wrote in message
> > news:<40450D83...@att.net>...
> > > > GROVES, DAVID G., age 57, of Birmingham, Alabama formerly of
Chicago,
> > > > died February 28, 2004 after a long illness. Survivors include his
> > > > daughter, Dana Ripple. A memorial service will be held in
Pennsylvania
> > > > at a later time. Ridout's Elmwood Chapel is directing. <>
> > > > Published in The Birmingham News on 3/1/2004.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.legacy.com/Link.asp?Id=LS01982328X
> > >
> > > ---> http://profiles.yahoo.com/dggroves1
> >
> > The yahoo link didn't work Wiseone:)
> >
> >
> > Beav
> >
>
> Link worked for me here at midnight.
This is what I get
The requested URL /dggroves1 was not found on this server.
>
> And thanks for it. I felt as if I knew Dave, even if I had never met him
> face to face. But this reminds me of reading a book and then later seeing
> the movie made from it. Nothing like I imagined him.
>
> As I would write and read and think about Dave's issues, I pictured him
(as
> I do everyone on here) in my mind. And I am sorry, but this picture on
> Yahoo is wrong. I liked my picture better.
>
> I will miss Dave's forays into politics, law, research, trade, etc. I
> seldom agreed with him, but always listened to his side. Made me think on
> some occasions when I thought I had already made up my mind.
>
> The obit says Dave was 57, the Yahoo personal says he was 59, whenever
that
> was posted. Some days it does feel like we must be older than we are.
>
> (We know you don't care for praying, Beav. But you know I try.)
> I will keep Dave in my prayers (which for me are my thoughts).
I've probably thought more about DG this week than I've thought of anyone
else Judy, and always with sadness.
Beav
willbill
> "Judy" wrote
> http://profiles.yahoo.com/dggroves1
>> Link worked for me here at midnight.
worked for me too. :)
>> And thanks for it. I felt as if I knew Dave,
dave was 2-faced, so it didn't take long
before i realized that i didn't know dave
> I've probably thought more about DG this week than
> I've thought of anyone else Judy, and always with sadness.
think "courage" not sadness
bill
As he was valiant, I honour him...
Jim Dumas
> So tell me, what SHOULD I think?
God knows.
OK Beav,
Let's start over.
1) My wife doesn't want me to get involved with DIF. This governs.
2) Dr Bob asked me for suggestions in an email discussing Dave's passing.
3) I asked you if you thought you could ever join DIF now.
Since you use beef insulin and hated Dave with a passion, you're a good
place to start.
That's it.
Beav
> Beav wrote:
>
> > So tell me, what SHOULD I think?
>
> God knows.
Well at least someone does.
>
> OK Beav,
>
> Let's start over.
>
> 1) My wife doesn't want me to get involved with DIF. This governs.
Ok.
>
> 2) Dr Bob asked me for suggestions in an email discussing Dave's passing.
Suggestions about what?
>
> 3) I asked you if you thought you could ever join DIF now.
The way you put your question implied that you were still part of that organ
and yet when I replied as I did, you failed to mantion that you weren't (for
whatever reason). That in itself tells me all I need to know about the
organisation, that being it associates with devious people. I'm not devious
so that organisation and me won't ever become as one.
>
> Since you use beef insulin and hated Dave with a passion, you're a good
> place to start.
Who says I hated him with a passion? You? Well let's just clear that up
right now.
I didn't hate Dave Groves, I DISAGREED with Dave Groves on two issues. Now I
KNOW you have difficulty in undersanding that friends don't stab each other
in the back, and I understand that you're morally bankrupt, but don't put
words in MY mouth and don't start runours about me, or (to use a Jim Dumass
phrase) I'll shut you down.
Ok?
>
> That's it.
Indeed it is
Beav
"willbill" <tr...@worldwide.net> wrote in message
news:c2lbn...@enews3.newsguy.com...
I fnd it sad when anyone goes before his time Bill. At 57 (or 59 depending
on who's right) Dave went before his.
Beav
Cheri
died young. :-)
--
Cheri
Type 2, no meds for now.
Mary
> Mary wrote:
>
> > For the record: Your "snake in the grass" tactics were known at the
> > first DIF meeting in DC where he tried to take over DIF even before it
> > was offically formed. You were kept on the board to keep and eye on.
> > The world knows your character now, by your own words. Resigned????
> > You were fired!
>
> Dear Mary,
>
> If you check your DIF bylaws, there is no provision for abrupt termination.
> Board members must be voted off the board of directors and that never
> happened.
>
> What did happen was Dave had a temper tantrum, as usual, and said "You're
> Fired!" But that was meaningless per the bylaws. I submitted a letter of
> resignation to Dr. Bob Blumenthal, the chairman of the board and CEO of
> DIF. He accepted it with heavy heart and my now wife was pleased as punch
> because she thought I was wasting my time.
>
> This was volunteer work. So fired is impossible,
You were removed from the board, Jim and no one received your claimed
resignation. You'd better re-read the bylaws, if you even bothered to
keep them. It's was obvious to the board that you had no interest in
DIF. You never followed though on anything you said you'd do. As for
your PR work, it should be obvious to all that have read this thread
that you did all you could to sabotage DIF and promote yourself.
You've treated your involvement with DIF as some kind of sick game.
Peoples lives were at stake and your only intention was to attempt to
destroy an organization that wanted to help diabetics survive. Who
pays your salary, Jim?
Jim Dumas
> Jim Dumas <j-dumas@.no.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:<f560344ac48cc043...@news.bubbanews.com>...
>> Mary wrote:
>>
>> > For the record: Your "snake in the grass" tactics were known at the
>> > first DIF meeting in DC where he tried to take over DIF even before it
>> > was offically formed. You were kept on the board to keep and eye on.
>> > The world knows your character now, by your own words. Resigned????
>> > You were fired!
>>
>> Dear Mary,
>>
>> If you check your DIF bylaws, there is no provision for abrupt
>> termination. Board members must be voted off the board of directors and
>> that never happened.
>>
>> What did happen was Dave had a temper tantrum, as usual, and said "You're
>> Fired!" But that was meaningless per the bylaws. I submitted a letter
>> of resignation to Dr. Bob Blumenthal, the chairman of the board and CEO
>> of
>> DIF. He accepted it with heavy heart and my now wife was pleased as
>> punch because she thought I was wasting my time.
>>
>> This was volunteer work. So fired is impossible,
>
> You were removed from the board, Jim and no one received your claimed
> resignation. You'd better re-read the bylaws, if you even bothered to
> keep them.
Dear Mary,
Please email a copy of the board meeting minutes where I was voted off the
board. You and Dave don't make a quorum.
> It's was obvious to the board that you had no interest in
> DIF. You never followed though on anything you said you'd do. As for
> your PR work, it should be obvious to all that have read this thread
> that you did all you could to sabotage DIF and promote yourself.
That's not true. I'm still invited to visit Mr Sharma of USV-India in
India. We still communicate today. Dave had no interest in meeting with
Mr Sharma and I thought somebody should make some effort to meet him while
he was in the States in 2001.
Next, you withheld your Canadian SDR work from Dave because Collen Fuller
didn't trust Dave. Dave blew a fuse when he figured this out.
Finally, whatever anybody did was wrong for Dave. So why bother to help him
when he doesn't appreciate it.
> You've treated your involvement with DIF as some kind of sick game.
> Peoples lives were at stake and your only intention was to attempt to
> destroy an organization that wanted to help diabetics survive. Who
> pays your salary, Jim?
I never received a penny for work associated with DIF. It was volunteer
work and 100% gratis. I make my money in the software industry totally
independent of the health-care industry and DIF.
And conspiracy theories were a figment of Dave's creative imagination,
Beav
"Cheri" <gser...@inreachnogarbage.com> wrote in message
news:qq-dnb-9uoJ...@inreach.com...
> Me too Beav. I'm almost 58 and if I went tmw, my family would think I
> died young. :-)
If I went now *I'D* think I went youg too:-))
Beav
XSMCX
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~abhu000/diabetes/granbess.html
He thought more about others than he thought about himself. Let's all remember that and reflect on the goodness of David.
His last few years were tough on him, with the loss of his eldest daughter. His health was going down hill since then. His funds were diminishing quickly because he didn't care about himself but, others.
For those of you that are interested, he turned 58 on Nov. 13, 2003. He had been in the hospital since mid July and passed on Feb. 28, 2004. David spent his last birthday, Christmas and New Year in ICU with a packed open chest and tubes running in and out of him in all directions. He was from Miami, FL. Had worked in Boston, Atlanta, Miami and Birmingham.
David had 2 daughters, Stacey and Dana. Stacey passed a few years back and left a major emptyness in his life. If it weren't for Dana, he would have been gone long ago.
David and I shared the same mother but, he lived with his father and I lived with our mother. We both had kind of screwed up upbringings and would get together and laugh at ourselves and how unscrewed up we became.
Perhaps, some of this has cleared the air for a few and caused a little closeness that some of you may have need. Let's just remember, all he wanted was to help others.
Regards to all,
Sean
Beav
"XSMCX" <s.co...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:826c82899be23156...@localhost.talkabouthealthnetwork.com...
> Hi, My name is Sean Connor. I am David's half brother. I am saddened by
the fact that a lot of people here think ill of my brother.
Sean, I'm surprised you've come to that concluson based on what's been
written in this thread. I can't see where anyone has said they think ill of
DG. Sure some people didn't get along with him when he was alive (me for
one) but that's a LONG way from thnking ill of someone.
>
> Regards to all,
> Sean
Thank you for that Sean.
Best wishes
Beav
>
willbill
> Hi, My name is Sean Connor. I am David's half brother.
> I am saddened by the fact that a lot of people here
> think ill of my brother.
the one thing i think i know about dave
was that a rage burned to the inner depths
of his soul over what the big pharmas have
done (and not done) with insulin this past
22 years (i.e. since the advent of rDNA insulin)
i never met dave in person
the last communication i had with dave was
when he accused me of killing other t1 diabetics
despite that, i think well of dave
bill t1 since '57
"Rage is the only quality which has kept me, or anybody
I have ever studied, writing columns for newspapers."
Jimmy Breslin (b. 1929), U.S. journalist, author
Bay Area Dave
animal insulin?
dave
Jim Dumas
> what problem(s) did DGG have with Humulin that he didn't have with
> animal insulin?
Hi Dave,
Dave G had unpredictable hypoglycemia that caused two car accidents. This
happens to a subset of T1s as the anti-insulin antibody concentration
lowers when these T1s switch from beef to human rDNA. The process takes
about 3-5 years to bottom out and stabilize. This was in the Diabetes Care
article you downloaded from my web site last year.
HTH,
Jim Dumas
> Hi, My name is Sean Connor. I am David's half brother. I am saddened by
> the fact that a lot of people here think ill of my brother.
Hi Sean,
I probably have spent more in-person time with Dave then any of the regular
posters on MHD. I met Dave in January, 1994, at an ADA post grad course in
Boston. I met his daughters, Stacey and Dana in Atlanta in August, 1994,
when this proud father took them to a Braves baseball game. We did the
usual junk food at the game then went to Underground Atlanta for dinner.
My relationship with Dave centered on diabetes issues. We always had some
lively discussion, often with opposing viewpoints. Dave's debating style
was harsh and usually ruffled feathers. This is what most people are angry
about.
In any case, I will miss the debates with Dave and am sad that he's gone.
Best wishes,
Bay Area Dave
driving, or while driving for long periods. Wouldn't that have been the
sensible and prudent thing to do, knowing how he had hypo unawareness?
Too bad he isn't here to explain himself. Did he ever try pumping to
level out his bg's?
dave
Jim Dumas
> perhaps he should have checked his bg's more often, and certainly before
> driving, or while driving for long periods. Wouldn't that have been the
> sensible and prudent thing to do, knowing how he had hypo unawareness?
> Too bad he isn't here to explain himself. Did he ever try pumping to
> level out his bg's?
I think this was before the small BG meters came out in the late 1980s.
I had an AccuChek 2 that stayed at home when I was first dx'd. So it was a
craps shoot when 5pm rolled around and it was time to drive 45 minutes
north on I-95 to get home.
His major accident was going home in Miami after work about 1987.
So we can't judge by today's standards,
Beav
"Bay Area Dave" <d...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:XbH4c.9618$BR....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> perhaps he should have checked his bg's more often, and certainly before
> driving, or while driving for long periods. Wouldn't that have been the
> sensible and prudent thing to do, knowing how he had hypo unawareness?
Dave, as I recall it, when Dave had his forst accident, there wasn't much
known about unawereness caused by human insulins as they'd only been on the
market for a short period. I can easily see how ONE accident could have
occured, as I told Dave himself, but I never could understand how another
one could. I still can't either.
As a diabetic who's known for running relatively low BGs (me that is) I
never drive before testing and I never get in the car without my esting gear
AND a healthy supply of provisions. (It's become a standing joke with my
pals, my "provisions bag":)
I don't drive unless my sugar is 5 or higher and I test frequently even if I
feel perfectly Ok.
> Too bad he isn't here to explain himself.
He did try explaining at one time. I'm sure his posts (on this NG) will be
archived to.
Did he ever try pumping to
> level out his bg's?
I don't think he did, but he did try VERY hard to ensure the continued
supply of his beloved beef. To no avail as it turned out, but he never gave
up the fight until the very end. you've got to admire him for that alone,
even if his tactics weren't well thought out.
Beav
Bay Area Dave
precautions. I've always got my little blue fanny pack with glucagon
and several rolls of glucose tablets, along with my meter. I can drive
and check my bg's quite handily, having done it thousands of times over
the years. I steer with my knees for a second.
I've accidentally left my home twice in about 14 years without a meter.
First time I did that I had a job interview. That was NOT a fun day.
I was extremely nervous not knowing what my bg's were doing. Just to
be safe, I popped a few tablets. Of course it turned out I was high at
the time but I didn't want to take the chance of getting low and
"stupid" during the interview. Since I've been pumping I haven't needed
to use the Glucagon. Before pumping I used it 3 or 4 times. DGG sounds
as if he was pretty well tortured by his DM, as was I on MDI.
dave
Beav
> thanks for responding, beav. sounds like you and I use the same
> precautions. I've always got my little blue fanny pack with glucagon
> and several rolls of glucose tablets, along with my meter. I can drive
> and check my bg's quite handily, having done it thousands of times over
> the years. I steer with my knees for a second.
I've even done it while I was flying a helicopter:-) I gave up testing on
the move though, coz my first "shot across the bows" is always a long time
before the incoming gets close enough for me to duck. If I'm in any doubt
though, I'll eat a mini "Bounty" bar and if I'm high, I'll just be a bit
higher for a few minutes;-)
>
> I've accidentally left my home twice in about 14 years without a meter.
> First time I did that I had a job interview. That was NOT a fun day.
Been there too-) (Not the job interview, but a hospital appointment), and if
there's ANYWHERE you don't want to be without your testing gear, it's a
piggin' hospital!!:-)
> I was extremely nervous not knowing what my bg's were doing. Just to
> be safe, I popped a few tablets. Of course it turned out I was high at
> the time but I didn't want to take the chance of getting low and
> "stupid" during the interview.
Of COURSE it turned out you were high, could it be any other way:))))
Since I've been pumping I haven't needed
> to use the Glucagon. Before pumping I used it 3 or 4 times. DGG sounds
> as if he was pretty well tortured by his DM, as was I on MDI.
DG was tortured by the human insulin and all it's pitfalls for sure. I'm
also sure he's in a small minority that don't do well on GM insulins, but
FOR that small minority, there should be easy access to the insulin that
works for them. Dave's fight was for those people.
Beav
Alan Mackenzie
>> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>>>what problem(s) did DGG have with Humulin that he didn't have with
>>>animal insulin?
>> Hi Dave,
>> Dave G had unpredictable hypoglycemia that caused two car accidents.
>> This happens to a subset of T1s as the anti-insulin antibody
>> concentration lowers when these T1s switch from beef to human rDNA.
>> The process takes about 3-5 years to bottom out and stabilize. This
>> was in the Diabetes Care article you downloaded from my web site last
>> year.
3-5 years? Good God! Is it really as long as that?
> perhaps he should have checked his bg's more often, and certainly
> before driving, or while driving for long periods.
That's an appalling thing to suggest. It's like blaming the victim. It
_is_ blaming the victim. The sensible thing to do would have been to go
back to sensible (for him) insulin.
> Wouldn't that have been the sensible and prudent thing to do, knowing
> how he had hypo unawareness?
No. Did he know that? Since when has bodily self-abuse ever been a
sensible thing to do? It can cause profound psychological damage.
> Too bad he isn't here to explain himself. Did he ever try pumping to
> level out his bg's?
> dave
--
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: aa...@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").
Beav
"Alan Mackenzie" <no...@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:djt13c...@acm.acm...
> > Jim Dumas
> >> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
> >>>what problem(s) did DGG have with Humulin that he didn't have with
> >>>animal insulin?
>
> >> Hi Dave,
>
> >> Dave G had unpredictable hypoglycemia that caused two car accidents.
> >> This happens to a subset of T1s as the anti-insulin antibody
> >> concentration lowers when these T1s switch from beef to human rDNA.
> >> The process takes about 3-5 years to bottom out and stabilize. This
> >> was in the Diabetes Care article you downloaded from my web site last
> >> year.
>
> 3-5 years? Good God! Is it really as long as that?
>
> > perhaps he should have checked his bg's more often, and certainly
> > before driving, or while driving for long periods.
>
> That's an appalling thing to suggest. It's like blaming the victim. It
> _is_ blaming the victim. The sensible thing to do would have been to go
> back to sensible (for him) insulin.
But that wasn't an option. He'd been switched because the "new and improved"
insuon was all that was available to him
>
> > Wouldn't that have been the sensible and prudent thing to do, knowing
> > how he had hypo unawareness?
>
> No. Did he know that?
Apparently not at the beginning, but after the first accident he did.
Beav