Bowflex Owners Keep Dogs Imprisoned
Dally
My friends have a bowflex. It was dusty and the poles weren't connected
to anything. 'Nuff said.
But worse than that, my friends have a bizarre doggy-jail thing going
on. They own two dogs, but keep them penned (inside in small pens) and
only move them on a leash (including in the house). These are not
active people and they mostly stand in the yard for their dogs to pee.
Their two dogs are kept separated as they say they don't play well
together. They've never trained their dogs and they won't come, they
jump on everything, and have no communication skills other than
understanding treats. Their dogs get the best of veterinarian care and
they make them gourmet home-made meals, but they treat the dogs almost
exactly the same way their treat their birds - kept wild in cages as
cherished living statues.
I'm allowed to bring my well-trained yellow Lab with me when I visit.
In past visits we've been required to keep her crated in the basement or
our bedroom so their dogs don't get agitated by the presence of a
strange dog. My dog is NOT allowed to play with their dogs, and must be
on a leash in their house at all times. This time she was allowed to be
in a pen in our common room, which worked great for her. She just lay
within sight of us and was okay in between romps. My friends commented
several times how well-behaved she was, meaning, she didn't start
barking uncontrollably every time someone moved or a door opened, like
her dogs do, or dribble pee on the carpet, like their dogs do.
They live in the woods, near logging trails. I run on their logging
trails with my dog, but they don't. I know their trails better than
they do.
This week-end my friends caught on that I don't have my dog leashed in
their yard when I'm outside romping her. (They don't really get the
concept of romping, as their Lab is never allowed off-leash so never
plays fetch or frisbee, etc.) They were quite severe with me about how
my dog might run off after some animal. They honestly can't believe
that my dog would come if I called her. Come, hell, my dog doesn't want
to leave my side!
This really has me scratching my head. My sister's border collies
compete nationwide in sheep dog trials. My dog's favorite playmate is a
seeing eye dog (with whom we have dog playdates.) My brother-in-law's
dog is a trained Doberman attack dog. Ela is a slouch compared to these
trained-to-perfection dogs. So maybe I just hang out in elite dog
crowds, but does this seem normal to you?
These are really nice, smart, well-meaning people. They think they're
being wonderful to their dogs, and think I'm being abusive to mine by
letting her off-leash, feeding her dry (Cohen-approved) kibble, and
letting her have raw hide bones. They've had dogs longer than me, and
going back 20 years I recall that every one of them was an ill-mannered
lout that would jump on you and stick their nose in your crouch.
This week-end they said they were thinking of getting a border collie
because "they're loyal." Uh oh. Is there something I could do? I
model good dog communication, but they're sure that my dog just happens
to be on extraordinarily good behavior or that maybe she's incredibly
passive - they just don't get the concept that you can train a dog. Is
there anyway to convince entirely sedentary people who expect their dogs
to stay in crates or pens all day, that don't work with them or train
them, that that a border collie might be a bad idea?
Dally
P.S. And while I'm at it, how can I tell them to get rid of the bowflex
and get a power cage instead?
Lee Michaels
"Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote in message
news:41rh0pF...@individual.net...
If there is a case that cries out for euthanasia, this is it.
For the dog owners, of course.
Curt James
>Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.
>
>My friends have a bowflex.
<snip>
>But worse than that, my friends have a bizarre doggy-jail thing going
>on. They own two dogs, but keep them penned (inside in small pens) and
>only move them on a leash (including in the house).
<snip>
Uh, can we get YOU a doggy-jail thing?
Seriously, could you offer to train their dogs?
I can, however, understand the dog pens. A friend had one and locked
his dog up when he was at work. An exgirlfriend has a beagle that
chewed on anything within reach when we penned her in the kitchen, so
that ended the penning-up action. I might have sprung for a cage if it
was my dog.
>Dally
>
>P.S. And while I'm at it, how can I tell them to get rid of the bowflex
>and get a power cage instead?
I thought you said it was an unused bowflex. Do you think they'd use
the power cage? No.
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
JMW
Do these friends have very strong religious and/or political views?
Just curious.
Curt James
<j...@event.horizon> wrote:
>Dally <Da...@myself.com> wrote:
>
>>Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.
>>
>>My friends have a bowflex. It was dusty and the poles weren't connected
>>to anything. 'Nuff said.
>>
>>But worse than that, my friends have a bizarre doggy-jail thing going
>>on. They own two dogs, but keep them penned (inside in small pens) and
>>only move them on a leash (including in the ho<SNIP!>
>Do these friends have very strong religious and/or political views?
>Just curious.
Would you be surprised to learn there are people with very strong
religious and/or political views who are also excellent pet owners?
Yes.
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
Dally
> Do these friends have very strong religious and/or political views?
> Just curious.
They are strongly anti-religious, in the same way Cohen is. They think
that faith is a failure of intelligence or a lack of imagination or
evidence of poor scientific training. (One of them was my lab partner
in physics classes many years ago.)
Their belief in lack of belief is strongly held.
Dally
David
That's an awfully long post Dilly. Can you please get to the point as I have
to be somewhere this weekend.
Dally
> If there is a case that cries out for euthanasia, this is it.
>
> For the dog owners, of course.
Nah, I'm telling you they aren't evil. Taking care of their dogs is one
of their highest priorities. They think keeping them under lock and key
is protecting them. It sort of makes sense, actually, when you realize
they haven't trained the dogs. External controls replace internal
controls. (They refer often to a dog's natural instincts. I haven't
discussed this with them, but I suspect the lack of training is a
conscious choice on their part. I think they would disdain going to
puppy training classes with all the plebian dog owners.)
In most respects they are at the very height of pet care - they get
their dogs all sorts of holistic treatments, the best diet, the best
supplements, the very best medical care. The dogs aren't overweight.
The terrier doesn't mind being penned, she just jumps up and down as if
she's on a tramoline. Their last terrier lived to be absurdly old.
That's when the penning stuff started, actually, because they wanted the
puppies not to annoy the old dog.
Two years later, the Lab seems a bit brain-damaged, as if he is a Downs
Syndrome Dog or something. He won't "come" or "sit" and jumps on
everything he can get near when he's allowed out of his playpen or
crate. It's just weird how big a blind spot they have about the Lab.
His owners think he's hyperactive and warn that he must be kept under
very strict control because of it - not realizing he's hyper because
he's been under very strict control!
I can almost just call this a difference in parenting styles. It just
shook me up, particularly the part where they look down on me for not
keeping my dog safe because I played with her off-leash in a rural yard
far from cars.
Do other people keep their dogs penned or crated or on a leash at all times?
Dally
Curt James
>"Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote
and wrote and wrote and wrote...
>> Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.
<snip five THOUSAND lines of text about dogs, pens, and a dusty
bowflex machine>
>That's an awfully long post Dilly. Can you please get to the point
>as I have to be somewhere this weekend.
This may seem like another mutual appreciation moment, but what the
hell. David, I'm not an easy laugh, but that had me barking (no pun
intended) with laughter. Thanks for the gut-buster.
And, Wen, you really should give your friends a clue about dog
training. I mean if they can benefit from your experience then cut
them (and, more importantly, THE DOGS) some slack.
Offer to dog sit for them. Get them a gift certificate to a nice local
restaurant and then offer to stay with the mutts while they're
enjoying several hours away from the poor animals. While their
misguided owners are absent, you can let one out of its cage and work
your magic.
Or be direct and just come out and tell your friends what your opinion
is. Really. WTF.
You're part of the problem as it stands now.
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
JMW
Fits the profile. What they believe in wasn't important; it's how
adamant their beliefs are.
There's no sense in you trying to tell them anything. They already
think they have the answer, and they can't imagine why you don't treat
your dog the same.
David
"Curt James" <cwj...@psu.edu> wrote in message
news:fjbhr1h4ic2akldfr...@4ax.com...
> David <forg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>>"Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote
>
> and wrote and wrote and wrote...
>
>>> Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.
>
> <snip five THOUSAND lines of text about dogs, pens, and a dusty
> bowflex machine>
>
>>That's an awfully long post Dilly. Can you please get to the point
>>as I have to be somewhere this weekend.
>
> This may seem like another mutual appreciation moment, but what the
> hell. David, I'm not an easy laugh, but that had me barking (no pun
> intended) with laughter. Thanks for the gut-buster.
Ha ha! (well that's why I'm a troll enabler)
[.....]
>
> You're part of the problem as it stands now.
Exactly. Whether they are friends or not she has a duty to tell them if
they are mistreating their animals.
Curt James
>Dally <Da...@myself.com> wrote:
>>Their belief in lack of belief is strongly held.
>
>Fits the profile.
I got your profile right here. It's one word: defeatist
>There's no sense in you trying to tell them anything.
>They already think they have the answer, and they
>can't imagine why you don't treat your dog the same.
And so you'd let the treatment continue?
Yes, fits the profile.
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
Dally
Hmmm, I guess that makes me the same, too. Not being able to imagine
why they don't treat their dog the same, I mean. It partially shakes me
up so much because I always considered them to be Master Dog Owners.
They are the child-free sort that dote on their dogs. I've watched them
dance attendance on their dogs for years. I just never realized before
how vastly different their relationship is with their dogs than mine is
with my dog.
Meanwhile, at this moment they're probably posting over on
alt.support.child-free about the horrible invasion of children they just
endured. They took off their shoes and waved smelly feet in the air,
one tired child cried on the floor without his mother intervening, they
constantly needed breakfast, lunch, snack, dinner, games, etc etc etc.
I'm sure they're more horrified by me and mine then I was about them and
theirs.
Dally
David Cohen
"JMW" <j...@event.horizon> wrote
Their religious and/or political views might be affected by their being
clones of Josef Mengele.
David
Dally
> You really should give your friends a clue about dog
> training. I mean if they can benefit from your experience then cut
> them (and, more importantly, THE DOGS) some slack.
How do I do that? They honestly think that 80 pound Labradors are just
going to jump on people when they come to the door. 400 people come to
my door each year and my dog jumps on exactly ZERO of them. We talked
about this a bit today, and they assured me that she MIGHT jump on one
of them at any moment, I'm just fooling myself to think she won't. They
figure training won't counter programming so why bother training.
Furthermore, their system works for them. They don't see the benefit of
putting in all that time and going to classes. They've got x-pens.
They've got dog gates. They got leashes. They've had dogs continuously
for over 20 years without ever training any of them. How do you change
that?
> Offer to dog sit for them. Get them a gift certificate to a nice local
> restaurant and then offer to stay with the mutts while they're
> enjoying several hours away from the poor animals. While their
> misguided owners are absent, you can let one out of its cage and work
> your magic.
They'd be horrified the way I'd be horrified if someone sneaked behind
my back to teach my children table manners. (I overheard someone saying
recently, with a straight face, that a three year old was old enough to
know how to behave in a restaurant and the parents ought to be doing a
better job teaching the kid manners.)
> Or be direct and just come out and tell your friends what your opinion
> is. Really. WTF.
My opinion is that their Labrador is getting insufficient exercise (and
so are they) and is needlessly destructive and difficult to live with
because they haven't invested the time in training the dog. I am less
opinionated about the terrier because I consider terriers to be little
horror shows anyway and I don't know what benefits training will give.
It's little enough so they can carry it, and active enough in its pen so
it gets exercise (the tiny terrier and giant Lab have same-size pens).
But when do people get to tell other adults what they OUGHT to be doing?
This is related to the perennial thread about how to help your obese
friends lose weight. Um, you can't. They won't lose weight unless they
value fitness. My friends won't train their dogs because they don't
value trained dogs.
> You're part of the problem as it stands now.
This train of thought has reminded me of my grandmother's guard dog. It
was a mean old German shepherd that I was scared to death of. It was
chained to a stake and the circle it had for a run (including the dog
house) was swept to bear dirt from pacing. No one ever had a kind word
or a warm hearth for that dog.
Maybe chained/penned/imprisoned dogs are more common than I know.
Dally
David Cohen
> Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>> If there is a case that cries out for euthanasia, this is it.
>>
>> For the dog owners, of course.
>
> Nah, I'm telling you they aren't evil.
Bull FUCKING shit! Keeping the dogs physically healthy so that they can
continue to psychologically torture them even longer?
I'm a medical professional...Lee can hold these two motherfuckers down while
I inject the pentobarbital to kill these two friends of yours.
How many clones of Josef Mengele did the Nazis produce?
David
David Cohen
>
> This train of thought has reminded me of my grandmother's guard dog. It
> was a mean old German shepherd that I was scared to death of. It was
> chained to a stake and the circle it had for a run (including the dog
> house) was swept to bear dirt from pacing. No one ever had a kind word or
> a warm hearth for that dog.
Is Grandma dead yet? Lee and I can add her to our death wish list, if not.
> Maybe chained/penned/imprisoned dogs are more common than I know.
Evil, sadistic, owners, and the enablers in their lives who keep them as
friends and try to justify their sick, demented, behavior.
David
Dally
> "Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote in message
> news:41rnjdF...@individual.net...
>
>>Lee Michaels wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If there is a case that cries out for euthanasia, this is it.
>>>
>>>For the dog owners, of course.
>>
>>Nah, I'm telling you they aren't evil.
>
> Bull FUCKING shit! Keeping the dogs physically healthy so that they can
> continue to psychologically torture them even longer?
So you're in the camp of people who would let dogs run loose in the
house and yard?
What if one were so wild it wouldn't come when you called it and kept
trying to zoom through doors to get outside, would you confine it then,
for its own safety?
What if two dogs kept tearing at each other, hurting each other - would
you confine them to separate them?
<snip>
> How many clones of Josef Mengele did the Nazis produce?
I dunno, but I thought they all lived in Brazil.
The funny thing about this conversation is that they have very similar
views as you do on dogs. They are strongly opinionated on the
importance of a good breeder, and they are very focused on the dog's
nutritional well-being. It's just this safe = confined thinking that
seems warped to me.
But lots of people have told me that I'm wrong to run with my dog
off-leash in the park. And I've been rebuked for letting my dog play
outside in our half-acre lot with the kids - she might run into the
street, etc. So we can't really say that allowing dogs freedom outside
is the norm.
Is it?
So that leaves indoor issues. Curt mentioned people crating during the
day while they're at work: a pen is larger than a crate and they aren't
away for 10 hours stretches, so doesn't that make it humane?
Dally
Dally
> "Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote in message
> news:41rrdjF...@individual.net...
>
>>This train of thought has reminded me of my grandmother's guard dog. It
>>was a mean old German shepherd that I was scared to death of. It was
>>chained to a stake and the circle it had for a run (including the dog
>>house) was swept to bear dirt from pacing. No one ever had a kind word or
>>a warm hearth for that dog.
>
>
> Is Grandma dead yet? Lee and I can add her to our death wish list, if not.
No, but she hasn't owned a dog in many years.
See, that's part of what she lost out on. She doesn't realize what a
good companion they can be. That dog lost out on a decent 12-year life,
but she lost out on 80 years of dog-friendship.
>>Maybe chained/penned/imprisoned dogs are more common than I know.
>
>
> Evil, sadistic, owners, and the enablers in their lives who keep them as
> friends and try to justify their sick, demented, behavior.
No, don't be coy, tell us what you REALLY think!
Dally
JMW
They would have raised children the same way: overprotected and
repressed. And those children would have become utterly intolerable
adults. And their parents would be mystified as to why that occurred.
JMW
>
>So that leaves indoor issues. Curt mentioned people crating during the
>day while they're at work: a pen is larger than a crate and they aren't
>away for 10 hours stretches, so doesn't that make it humane?
Crating is a temporary tool to be supplanted by training.
Dally
Yeah, this feels a little like seeing a ten year old using a baby bottle.
My dog has a crate, but the door is left open nearly all the time and
she just uses it as her safe haven. (The boys aren't allowed to go in
the crate.)
She is also occasionally crated when food is out and it's more
convenient to crate her than to put away the food. This sort of crating
lasts maybe 20 minutes, although once we had her crated for a couple of
hours for a party. (She'd eat all the hors d'oevres in an instant.)
She has the run of the house most of the time, and hangs out within
sight of me most of the work day. But we know that most people don't
have their dogs with them during the work day. Cohen, you certainly
don't. So what do you do with them? They must be confined in SOME respect.
We also know that most people don't run with their dogs. Taking them
outside and standing there while they pee is probably more the norm than
our regimen (mile walks once or twice a day, occasional runs in the
park, frisbee romp every afternoon administered by Boy She Loves.) My
dog doesn't have it normal, she has Dog Heaven. So is it really abuse
if you don't provide Dog Heaven?
Dally
David
attention again.
"Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote in message
news:41rh0pF...@individual.net...
> Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.
Yes, we are all feverishly noting and hanging on every word
>
> My friends have a bowflex. It was dusty and the poles weren't connected
> to anything. 'Nuff said.
Yes 'nuff said' but it does start to paint the picture of how very smart you
are
>
snipped crap
>
> I'm allowed to bring my well-trained yellow Lab
because your dog 'comes' it doesn't make it particularly well trained
> with me when I visit. In past visits we've been required to keep her
> crated in the basement or our bedroom so their dogs don't get agitated by
> the presence of a strange dog.
Can't you afford a motel - why would you subject your 'well trained' lab to
being crated?
> My dog is NOT allowed to play with their dogs, and must be on a leash in
> their house at all times. This time she was allowed to be in a pen in our
> common room, which worked great for her. She just lay within sight of us
> and was okay in between romps. My friends commented several times how
> well-behaved she was, meaning, she didn't start barking uncontrollably
> every time someone moved or a door opened, like her dogs do, or dribble
> pee on the carpet, like their dogs do.
People are judged by the friends they keep
> They live in the woods, near logging trails.
Whose woods these are I think I know
> I run on their logging trails with my dog, but they don't.
They don't run as you say they are sedentary. You jog because of course you
are an 'athlete'.
> I know their trails better than they do.
As you say they are sedentary
>
> This week-end my friends caught on that I don't have my dog leashed in
> their yard when I'm outside romping her. (They don't really get the
> concept of romping,
Is there such a concept as 'romping'? You mean your dog is playing, right?
> as their Lab is never allowed off-leash so never plays fetch or frisbee,
> etc.) They were quite severe with me about how my dog might run off after
> some animal.
Poor baby. They were 'severe' with you! Did they shake their finger at you?
How traumatic an experience that must have been!
> They honestly can't believe that my dog would come if I called her. Come,
> hell, my dog doesn't want to leave my side!
Such a well trained dog!
>
> This really has me scratching my head. My sister's border collies compete
> nationwide in sheep dog trials.
Gosh! Really? Your sister?
> My dog's favorite playmate is a seeing eye dog (with whom we have dog
> playdates.) My brother-in-law's dog is a trained Doberman attack dog.
My goodness that's a lot of smart dogs in your family!
> Ela is a slouch compared to these trained-to-perfection dogs.
ooohhhhh . . trained to perfection!
> So maybe I just hang out in elite dog crowds, but does this seem normal to
> you?
Well, seeing as you are also an 'elite athlete' that comes as no surprise
that you would hang in elite dog circles as well
>
> These are really nice, smart, well-meaning people. They think they're
> being wonderful to their dogs, and think I'm being abusive to mine by
> letting her off-leash, feeding her dry (Cohen-approved) kibble, and
> letting her have raw hide bones.
Does this story go one forever? Will someone please shoot me?
>They've had dogs longer than me, and going back 20 years I recall that
>every one of them was an ill-mannered lout that would jump on you and stick
>their nose in your crouch.
In your crouch?? What the fuck is a 'crouch'??? I can't believe anyone past
grade school refers to a crotch as a crouch. Is this a joke?
>
> This week-end they said they were thinking of getting a border collie
> because "they're loyal." Uh oh. Is there something I could do? I model
> good dog communication, but they're sure that my dog just happens to be on
> extraordinarily good behavior or that maybe she's incredibly passive -
> they just don't get the concept that you can train a dog.
I can't believe this story is still continuing - I have tears in my eyes
> Is there anyway to convince entirely sedentary people who expect their
> dogs to stay in crates or pens all day, that don't work with them or train
> them, that that a border collie might be a bad idea?
Gosh you are stupid Dilly
>
> Dally
>
> P.S. And while I'm at it, how can I tell them to get rid of the bowflex
> and get a power cage instead?
Finally the punch line!
Curt James
<snip>
><snip>the camp of people who would let dogs run loose in the
>house and yard?
Back on the farm, my cousin David chained the one collie-mix outside,
but it was a mean motherfucker. I believe it had been abused by a
previous owner. As a kid, my grandma gave me table scraps and I'd go
and feed the dog. Eventually it calmed down and became trusting enough
of me so I could pet her.
But when I first met the dog there's no way I'd have got in the range
of that mouth. It's fur was matted and tangled. I called her Pebbles
because of that. Became a very loving dog once it realized I wasn't a
son of a bitch - as I suspect the previous owner was.
Pebble was eventually allowed to run free on the farm along with
David's other dog, Lassie (yeah, original, but it looked like the TV
dog, so...).
BUT, Pebbles was eventually run over by a tractor, so there's
something to be said for leashes, too. :-(
>What if one were so wild it wouldn't come when you called it and kept
>trying to zoom through doors to get outside, would you confine it then,
>for its own safety?
>
>What if two dogs kept tearing at each other, hurting each other - would
>you confine them to separate them?
NOT TO MENTION TRACTORS!
Ahem.
But didn't you say that training would /cure/ all that nonsense?
>The funny thing about this conversation is that they have very similar
>views as you do on dogs. They are strongly opinionated on the
>importance of a good breeder, and they are very focused on the dog's
>nutritional well-being. It's just this safe = confined thinking that
>seems warped to me.
>
>But lots of people have told me that I'm wrong to run with my dog
>off-leash in the park. And I've been rebuked for letting my dog play
>outside in our half-acre lot with the kids - she might run into the
>street, etc. So we can't really say that allowing dogs freedom outside
>is the norm.
>
>Is it?
>
>So that leaves indoor issues. Curt mentioned people crating during the
>day while they're at work: a pen is larger than a crate and they aren't
>away for 10 hours stretches, so doesn't that make it humane?
Well, to be honest, the cage/pen/crate wasn't all that big.
Ideally, every animal would have ample room for exercise on its own as
well as walks with its owner, right?
I'd hate to be an effing bird in one of those tiny cage or how about
those poor Betas? That would suck. Like living in a coffin.
http://oregonstate.edu/~yonallyb/buddha.jpg
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
Curt James
<snip>
>They honestly think that 80 pound Labradors are just
>going to jump on people when they come to the door.
<snip>
>They figure training won't counter programming so
>why bother training.
<snip>
>My opinion is that their Labrador is getting insufficient
>exercise (and so are they) and is needlessly destructive
>and difficult to live with because they haven't invested
>the time in training the dog.
<snip>
>(the tiny terrier and giant Lab have same-size pens).
Okay, I was wrong. Take that offer up on killing the owners. I think
it's probably the way to go.
Hth.
Psyche. But what a bunch of jerks, eh?
>This train of thought has reminded me of my grandmother's guard dog. It
>was a mean old German shepherd that I was scared to death of. It was
>chained to a stake and the circle it had for a run (including the dog
>house) was swept to bear dirt from pacing. No one ever had a kind word
>or a warm hearth for that dog.
Pebbles! I mentioned the mean motherfucker elsewhere in this thread.
Sadly, your grandmother's dog didn't get a friend. I loved Pebbles and
I was fortunate enough to be a little kid with plenty of time and
table scraps.
>Maybe chained/penned/imprisoned dogs are more common than I know.
Animals get a raw deal often, I suspect.
What's that Bob Barker battlecry? SPAY OR NEUTER! SPAY OR NEUTER!
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
Dally
> BUT, Pebbles was eventually run over by a tractor, so there's
> something to be said for leashes, too. :-(
Our current cat is an indoor cat. He's our first one like that - I grew
up on a farm and the cats were mostly allowed to roam free. But I live
in town now and just decided to keep this one in. Probably because I
got to save some money on shots if I promised to keep it indoors when I
adopted him from the shelter. (Cohen isn't the only cheap bastard Jew
around here.)
I don't feel like it's abusive to keep that cat indoors, although he'd
love to get out there and mess with the squirrels or birds he keeps
watching.
Would anyone else think it was abusive to keep a cat indoors? So why is
it abusive to keep a dog indoors?
>>What if one were so wild it wouldn't come when you called it and kept
>>trying to zoom through doors to get outside, would you confine it then,
>>for its own safety?
>>
>>What if two dogs kept tearing at each other, hurting each other - would
>>you confine them to separate them?
>
>
> NOT TO MENTION TRACTORS!
>
> Ahem.
>
> But didn't you say that training would /cure/ all that nonsense?
Maybe. It's hard to train them to avoid tractors, since there is such a
destructive learning curve.
>>So that leaves indoor issues. Curt mentioned people crating during the
>>day while they're at work: a pen is larger than a crate and they aren't
>>away for 10 hours stretches, so doesn't that make it humane?
>
>
> Well, to be honest, the cage/pen/crate wasn't all that big.
Did you feel like it was abusive?
Personally, I don't mind crates. My dog was crate-trained as a puppy
and she seems to like her crate. It's her den.
Honestly, she doesn't walk around a lot during my work day. She just
stays in the same spot watching out the window in case the mailman might
come. Then she barks, he turns and leaves, and she's had another
successful day.
Dally
David Cohen
"Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote
<snip irrelevant attempt at rationalization of friends' evil behaviour>
WhatEVER!!! I'm am utterly uninterested in this conversation. Tell your
friends I hope they both die slowly of a painful cancer soon.
David
David
Sounds like a particularly well trained dog to me
Dally
> What's that Bob Barker battlecry? SPAY OR NEUTER! SPAY OR NEUTER!
Someone on another list I'm on mentioned that she wouldn't let the
neighbor drown a handful of barn kittens. She took them back to her
place and two litters later she has 30 barn cats.
I saw red. The reason the farmer was going to drown them was he wasn't
willing to pay to spay or neuter them. If she was going to take them
then she needed to do it. Otherwise they eat the bird population,
increasing the bug population, which eats the crops. And they cats feed
the coyote population which then increases predatory pests to livestock.
Who doesn't KNOW this stuff?
I told her to catch as many of the barn cats as she could and DROWN THEM
while they were still catchable, i.e., when they were cute kittens.
After this conversation I seriously started wondering if I was turning
Republican.
Dally
Dally
Oh, I'm just trying to figure out how normal this is. Are they really
abusive (the way it seemed to me), or is this just what people do with
their dogs.
So what do you do?
Dally
Curt James
re a cage/pen/crate wasn't all that big
>Did you feel like it was abusive?
Not especially, however...
>Personally, I don't mind crates. My dog was crate-trained
>as a puppy and she seems to like her crate. It's her den.
And that's the thing - if your reality is that crate or that routine
then you don't know any better. What's that saying? You don't know
what you're missing.
But, like you said, not every dog is gonna get Dog Heaven and so
there's that.
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
Curt James
>Another self-serving short story by our resident athlete yearning for
>attention again.
>
>"Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote
>> Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.
>
>Yes, we are all feverishly noting and hanging on every word
(looks over shoulder)
Damn.
(hoping to be unnoticed, sloooowly places notepad and pen on table)
>snipped crap
>> My dog is NOT allowed to play with their dogs, and must be on a leash in
>> their house at all times. This time she was allowed to be in a pen in our
>> common room, which worked great for her. She just lay within sight of us
>> and was okay in between romps. My friends commented several times how
>> well-behaved she was, meaning, she didn't start barking uncontrollably
>> every time someone moved or a door opened, like her dogs do, or dribble
>> pee on the carpet, like their dogs do.
>
>People are judged by the friends they keep
Bloody hell, David. SUCKS FOR YOU! Because, yeah, I'm a bonafide
troll! Well, according to what'shisface. (Who, btw, looks NOTHING like
G. Gordon Liddy
<http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/misc/g-gordon-liddy/202385.2.jpg>.
Oh, yeah, I guess he looks like Patrick Stewart and Moby, too. Hey,
HE'S BALD, SO...)
>> This week-end my friends caught on that I don't have my dog leashed in
>> their yard when I'm outside romping her. (They don't really get the
>> concept of romping,
>
>Is there such a concept as 'romping'? You mean your dog is playing, right?
I think it's just like U.S. cigarettes versus U.K. fags. That strange
English language separating us so neatly. So God damned smartly!
Do I have to rent Crocodile Dundee to offer more examples?
I think Brink is busy right now. But he seems to like guns. Don't
worry, I'll step in front of a virtual slug for ya, David.
>>They've had dogs longer than me, and going back 20 years I recall that
>>every one of them was an ill-mannered lout that would jump on you and stick
>>their nose in your crouch.
>
>In your crouch?? What the fuck is a 'crouch'??? I can't believe anyone past
>grade school refers to a crotch as a crouch. Is this a joke?
I'm thinking that was a typo. But, hey, I could be wrong. Hnh! Me!
Wrong? Boy, wouldn't that be a swift kick in the croUch?
>> This week-end they said they were thinking of getting a border collie
>> because "they're loyal." Uh oh. Is there something I could do? I model
>> good dog communication, but they're sure that my dog just happens to be on
>> extraordinarily good behavior or that maybe she's incredibly passive -
>> they just don't get the concept that you can train a dog.
>
>I can't believe this story is still continuing - I have tears in my eyes
heh
Blink! Blink! Look away! It's like an eclipse, I'm guessing.
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
OmManiPadmeOmelet
wrote:
> This week-end they said they were thinking of getting a border collie
> because "they're loyal." Uh oh. Is there something I could do? I
> model good dog communication, but they're sure that my dog just happens
> to be on extraordinarily good behavior or that maybe she's incredibly
> passive - they just don't get the concept that you can train a dog. Is
> there anyway to convince entirely sedentary people who expect their dogs
> to stay in crates or pens all day, that don't work with them or train
> them, that that a border collie might be a bad idea?
>
> Dally
Any border collie treated like that is going to go insane!
Any chance you could get them to read any dog training books?????
Yeesh!
At the very least, they could fence a large area for the dogs to
run!!!!!!
I taught Chelsea today not to go thru the front yard gate without
permission. :-) Only took 2 tries.
I'm sold on Corgies......
--
Om.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson
Curt James
>David Cohen wrote:
>> <snip irrelevant attempt at rationalization of friends' evil behaviour>
>>
>> WhatEVER!!! <snip> Tell your friends I hope they both die
>> slowly of a painful cancer soon.
>
>Oh, I'm just trying to figure out how normal this is. Are they really
>abusive (the way it seemed to me), or is this just what people
>do with their dogs.
>
>So what do you do?
It sounds to me like he kills people. Hnh.
Oh, hold up. He just hopes (or wishes) them dead. My bad.
Way to go Cohen.
And where's Hanson hiding? HEY, HANNY! I SAID "MY BAD"!!!
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
OmManiPadmeOmelet
wrote:
> Do other people keep their dogs penned or crated or on a leash at all times?
>
> Dally
Unfortunately, yes.
There is one woman on one of the dog lists that has a border collie in
an apt.
Bad idea.
She works at a pet store so often takes the dog to work with her. If she
does not or can not, she crates it.
If she does not crate the dog, it destroys her apt.
I can't leave Jewels locked in my bedroom for more than a few hours or
she starts bouncing off the walls. She usually stays out in my very
large fenced yard. I do have to bring her in sometimes if we have
something going on, like home repair or rock/sand deliveries. We are in
the process of doing extensive yard and home repairs/modifications.
I also let her sleep inside when the outside temps. drop below 40
degrees. As she has gotten older, she has gotten calmer and happily
flops on my bed. She likes the satin comforter. <G> She also likes to
sleep next to my side. She is about 4 years old now.
People REALLY need to consider breed when keeping an apt. dog!
And they need to get off their asses and train them. :-(
A well trained dog is a joy.
An untrained dog is a chore and a PITA.
Curt James
re cats that aren't spayed or neutered (and the consequent destruction
of THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE)
<snip>
>Otherwise they eat the bird population, increasing the bug
>population, which eats the crops. And they cats feed
>the coyote population which then increases predatory
>pests to livestock.
IIIIIT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT!!!!!
>Who doesn't KNOW this stuff?
Uh...
(AND I FEEEL FIIIIIIINE!!!!!)
>I told her to catch as many of the barn cats as she could
>and DROWN THEM while they were still catchable, i.e.,
>when they were cute kittens.
Maybe she'll get some slow-developing but insanely painful cancer.
(look Cohen)
>After this conversation I seriously started wondering if
>I was turning Republican.
Ouch.
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
OmManiPadmeOmelet
wrote:
> Maybe chained/penned/imprisoned dogs are more common than I know.
>
> Dally
Yes, they are...
Unfortunately.
When we started boarding Ebony and Ferocious (a pair of black lab/chow
crosses), they were totally untrained and unpredictable.
While the unpredictability has not changed much, they now pretty much do
what they are told.
Ferocious was used only as a watch dog and lived on the end of a chain,
usually tangled up out of reach of food and water.
Their owner was a total airhead.
We've been boarding them now for about 2 1/2 years. I'm thinking they
are now MY dogs as 'Liz never even visits them anymore.
OmManiPadmeOmelet
wrote:
> So you're in the camp of people who would let dogs run loose in the
> house and yard?
I let them run loose in the yard, but not the house except for Chelsea.
In the house, they stay in the bedrooms. The cats are not allowed in the
bedrooms...
>
> What if one were so wild it wouldn't come when you called it and kept
> trying to zoom through doors to get outside, would you confine it then,
> for its own safety?
No, you TRAIN it!!!
Dogs are smart. I have yet to own/meet a dog that cannot be trained!
>
> What if two dogs kept tearing at each other, hurting each other - would
> you confine them to separate them?
I'd train their sorry butts. ;-)
We have two mutts that are confined to separate bedrooms to EAT, as they
both tend to guard and fight over food dishes...
but out in the yard where they run and play, they do just fine.
We only separate them to feed them.
I introduced Chelsea to the gang last week under supervision. They were
buddies within minutes. She and the border collie are wrestle-mates now
and have a grand time playing.
The only way they are going to get to know each other is by associating
with each other.
I find it interesting that you started out criticizing these people, now
you are defending them? Why?
You know what they are doing is wrong.......
OmManiPadmeOmelet
Curt James <cwj...@psu.edu> wrote:
> I'd hate to be an effing bird in one of those tiny cage or how about
> those poor Betas? That would suck. Like living in a coffin.
>
> http://oregonstate.edu/~yonallyb/buddha.jpg
That's evil. :-(
My Betta is at least in a 1.5 gallon tank with filter and plants and
stuff...
David
"Curt James" <cwj...@psu.edu> wrote in message
news:6mhhr1pjd35g6jg1k...@4ax.com...
> David <forg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Another self-serving short story by our resident athlete yearning for
>>attention again.
>>
>>"Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote
>>> Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.
>
> Bloody hell, David. SUCKS FOR YOU! Because, yeah, I'm a bonafide
> troll! Well, according to what'shisface. (Who, btw, looks NOTHING like
> G. Gordon Liddy
Well, that;s the cross I have to bear! (yes I agree looks absolutely nothing
like Liddy. Who would want to anyway? He is a skinny nerdy looking guy.
>
> I think it's just like U.S. cigarettes versus U.K. fags. That strange
> English language separating us so neatly. So God damned smartly!
True enough. in fact I was thinking of going for a romp myself this
afternoon
> Do I have to rent Crocodile Dundee to offer more examples?
heh
>
[.....]
>>
>>Does this story go one forever? Will someone please shoot me?
>
> I think Brink is busy right now. But he seems to like guns. Don't
> worry, I'll step in front of a virtual slug for ya, David.
Thanks (it only hurts for a little while)
>
>>>They've had dogs longer than me, and going back 20 years I recall that
>>>every one of them was an ill-mannered lout that would jump on you and
>>>stick
>>>their nose in your crouch.
>>
>>In your crouch?? What the fuck is a 'crouch'??? I can't believe anyone
>>past
>>grade school refers to a crotch as a crouch. Is this a joke?
>
> I'm thinking that was a typo.
I also thought it was a typo - but there is a few letters difference between
crouch and crotch - and I have heard 'it' refered to as a crouch in the past
by people too coy to call it what it is
>But, hey, I could be wrong. Hnh! Me!
> Wrong? Boy, wouldn't that be a swift kick in the croUch?
good one
David
"David" <forg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:43b8d73c$0$8451$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
JMW
>"Curt James" <cwj...@psu.edu> wrote:
>> David <forg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>Another self-serving short story by our resident athlete yearning for
>>>attention again.
>>>
>>>"Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote
>>>> Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.
>>>People are judged by the friends they keep
>>
>> Bloody hell, David. SUCKS FOR YOU! Because, yeah, I'm a bonafide
>> troll! Well, according to what'shisface. (Who, btw, looks NOTHING like
>> G. Gordon Liddy
>
>Well, that;s the cross I have to bear! (yes I agree looks absolutely nothing
>like Liddy.
That's just what some folks say.
BTW, I was trying to figure out where I had seen an image like Curt's.
I think I found it ...
spodosaurus
> These are really nice, smart, well-meaning people. They think they're
> being wonderful to their dogs, and think I'm being abusive to mine by
> letting her off-leash, feeding her dry (Cohen-approved) kibble, and
> letting her have raw hide bones.
People who abuse children think the same things. Get new friends before
they find the bodies and the underground dungeon in the woods.
--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
David
"JMW" <j...@event.horizon> wrote in message
news:v6nhr1lm1vjkp3fv9...@4ax.com...
> "David" <forg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>"Curt James" <cwj...@psu.edu> wrote:
>>> David <forg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Another self-serving short story by our resident athlete yearning for
>>>>attention again.
>>>>
>>>>"Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote
>>>>> Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.
>>>>People are judged by the friends they keep
>>>
>>> Bloody hell, David. SUCKS FOR YOU! Because, yeah, I'm a bonafide
>>> troll! Well, according to what'shisface. (Who, btw, looks NOTHING like
>>> G. Gordon Liddy
>>
>>Well, that;s the cross I have to bear! (yes I agree looks absolutely
>>nothing
>>like Liddy.
>
> That's just what some folks say.
Maybe the resemblance is in your demeanor or persona but I don't see much of
a physical resemblance
> BTW, I was trying to figure out where I had seen an image like Curt's.
> I think I found it ...
>
> http://www.rustyiron.net/rugby_ball.jpg
Ha ha! (sorry Curt but that is mildly amusing)
Curt James
wrote:
re looking like G. Gordon Liddy
>That's just what some folks say.
People are stupid. (Yeah, yeah, "Me am wun.")
Since we look similar, perhaps you've also gotten told you look like
the guy who owned/owns the Sixers, what's his name, Pat something. I
got that often a few months back. (Googles) Croce!
And when I had my hair about a quarter inch instead of shaved down, I
got Anthony Edwards/Dr. Greene a lot from fans of that show ER. Then
again, you just ain't as purdy as me, you ugly old goat.
>BTW, I was trying to figure out where I had seen an image like Curt's.
>I think I found it ...
>
>http://www.rustyiron.net/rugby_ball.jpg
Damn. And an /obsessed/, ugly old goat at that! Well, at least you
have the guy catching my head. He coulda bin kickin' it, eh?
G. Gordon Liddy? Don't believe what people say.
--
Curt
http://curtjames
Curt James
>People who abuse children think the same things.
>Get new friends before they find the bodies and
>the underground dungeon in the woods.
Cut back on the crime dramas, pal.
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
JRH
HEH!
Now that is funny! ;o)
dami...@oldman.org
>Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.
>
>My friends have a bowflex. It was dusty and the poles weren't connected
>to anything. 'Nuff said.
>
>But worse than that, my friends have a bizarre doggy-jail thing going
>on. They own two dogs, but keep them penned (inside in small pens) and
>only move them on a leash (including in the house). These are not
>active people and they mostly stand in the yard for their dogs to pee.
>
>Their two dogs are kept separated as they say they don't play well
>together. They've never trained their dogs and they won't come, they
>jump on everything, and have no communication skills other than
>understanding treats. Their dogs get the best of veterinarian care and
>they make them gourmet home-made meals, but they treat the dogs almost
>exactly the same way their treat their birds - kept wild in cages as
>cherished living statues.
>
>I'm allowed to bring my well-trained yellow Lab with me when I visit.
>In past visits we've been required to keep her crated in the basement or
>our bedroom so their dogs don't get agitated by the presence of a
>strange dog. My dog is NOT allowed to play with their dogs, and must be
>on a leash in their house at all times. This time she was allowed to be
>in a pen in our common room, which worked great for her. She just lay
>within sight of us and was okay in between romps. My friends commented
>several times how well-behaved she was, meaning, she didn't start
>barking uncontrollably every time someone moved or a door opened, like
>her dogs do, or dribble pee on the carpet, like their dogs do.
>
>They live in the woods, near logging trails. I run on their logging
>trails with my dog, but they don't. I know their trails better than
>they do.
>
>This week-end my friends caught on that I don't have my dog leashed in
>their yard when I'm outside romping her. (They don't really get the
>concept of romping, as their Lab is never allowed off-leash so never
>plays fetch or frisbee, etc.) They were quite severe with me about how
>my dog might run off after some animal. They honestly can't believe
>that my dog would come if I called her. Come, hell, my dog doesn't want
>to leave my side!
>
>This really has me scratching my head. My sister's border collies
>compete nationwide in sheep dog trials. My dog's favorite playmate is a
>seeing eye dog (with whom we have dog playdates.) My brother-in-law's
>dog is a trained Doberman attack dog. Ela is a slouch compared to these
>trained-to-perfection dogs. So maybe I just hang out in elite dog
>crowds, but does this seem normal to you?
>
>These are really nice, smart, well-meaning people. They think they're
>being wonderful to their dogs, and think I'm being abusive to mine by
>letting her off-leash, feeding her dry (Cohen-approved) kibble, and
>letting her have raw hide bones. They've had dogs longer than me, and
>going back 20 years I recall that every one of them was an ill-mannered
>lout that would jump on you and stick their nose in your crouch.
>
>This week-end they said they were thinking of getting a border collie
>because "they're loyal." Uh oh. Is there something I could do? I
>model good dog communication, but they're sure that my dog just happens
>to be on extraordinarily good behavior or that maybe she's incredibly
>passive - they just don't get the concept that you can train a dog. Is
>there anyway to convince entirely sedentary people who expect their dogs
>to stay in crates or pens all day, that don't work with them or train
>them, that that a border collie might be a bad idea?
>
>Dally
>
>P.S. And while I'm at it, how can I tell them to get rid of the bowflex
>and get a power cage instead?
Tell them to get rid of the Bowflex and get their exercise by walking
their dogs outside. If this would be too strenuous and/or
psychologically threatening for them, advise them to pay someone to
take their dogs on long walks several times a day.
You describe the owners as sedentary. What does that mean? Are they
very old and feeble or just rather sedentary? Would they be able
able to control their dogs on leash if the dogs were to bolt after an
animal? If they might be willing to take their dogs on walks if they
thought they could control them, there are several types of harnesses
which, in conjunction with proper training, might give them such
control
Ask them to pay for a consultation with a knowledgeable dog trainer.
Give them good books on dog training. Ask them to do research on the
Net or take out books on dog training at their local library. Ask
them to name authors of books on dog training they've read and
enjoyed.
It's not necessarily a bad idea to keep dogs separated who might
otherwise seriously hurt each other. This doesn't mean doing what
these people are doing and this is an alternative that should only be
considered in selected cases.
Advise them to build a sufficiently tall and sturdy fence on their
property so that one dog at a time (at least at first) can be allowed
off-leash. They can then train them, if they choose, in a safe area,
but this would at least allow the dogs some exercise.
Of course, they won't do any of these things because they don't think
they're doing anything wrong and they're psychologically invested in
what they're doing now.
Dally
> I find it interesting that you started out criticizing these people, now
> you are defending them? Why?
>
> You know what they are doing is wrong.......
Yeah, but I've got lots of opinions. That doesn't mean I'm right on
every one, or that there aren't perspectives from which this makes
sense. I really DO like these people - they are some of my oldest
friends - and it is ME that has changed, not them, in that I've now got
a dog of my own and realize that the way their dogs lack training is
beyond sad.
But the more I think about it, the more I realize I'm being an elitist
asshole. Most of humanity doesn't take their dog through a year of
weekly puppy training classes.
And I'm substituting my judgment for that of a capable adults. They
think their dogs are escape risks so take thorough measures to ensure
that their dogs won't be endangered by getting loose. In their opinion
the risk to the dogs of escaping into the woods is real and dangerous
and I'd have to say I agree with them. I would have chosen training
rather than imprisonment as the redress, but how many really DO that?
One of these friends stopped by once when I was outside playing with my
dog in my yard. He asked if I did tick checks (after such a dangerous
activity.) I said I did once in a while, but not regularly, and
proceeded to do one right then and there. We found a tick - just a
common dog tick - but he seemed satisfied in his assessments of the
dangers of outside, and I felt embarrassed at how neglectful I was about
my dog's tick checks.
I think we're evaluating risk differently. In other words, this is
coming down to a parenting difference.
As we were going home my snotty teen-aged daughter chastised me for
having my dog off-leash in their yard, saying that we needed to respect
their knowledge of their woods and if THEY thought my dog was endangered
by their yard then I ought to just believe them. My husband and I very
carefully chose our words because we didn't want to diss our friends,
but the gist of it was that they shouldn't emulate them on this point.
And if the dog IS endangered by something, I want her off-leash so she
can get away. (What my friends consider "endangering" is attractive
smells that the dogs would investigate, thereby running off with some
risk of never being found again.)
Dally
Curt James
<snip... because HOLY CRAP YOU WRITE A LOT!>
>And if the dog IS endangered by something, I want her off-leash so she
>can get away.
John Hanson
misc.fitness.weights:
>OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
>
>> I find it interesting that you started out criticizing these people, now
>> you are defending them? Why?
>>
>> You know what they are doing is wrong.......
>
>Yeah, but I've got lots of opinions. That doesn't mean I'm right on
>every one, or that there aren't perspectives from which this makes
>sense. I really DO like these people - they are some of my oldest
>friends - and it is ME that has changed, not them, in that I've now got
>a dog of my own and realize that the way their dogs lack training is
>beyond sad.
>
>But the more I think about it, the more I realize I'm being an elitist
>asshole. Most of humanity doesn't take their dog through a year of
>weekly puppy training classes.
Buddy has been to exactly zero training classes if you discount my
working with him.
>
>And I'm substituting my judgment for that of a capable adults. They
>think their dogs are escape risks so take thorough measures to ensure
>that their dogs won't be endangered by getting loose. In their opinion
>the risk to the dogs of escaping into the woods is real and dangerous
>and I'd have to say I agree with them. I would have chosen training
>rather than imprisonment as the redress, but how many really DO that?
Buddy was a huge escape risk until I put in invisible fencing. Now
it's a non-issue. We rarely put his collar on him now and he'll spend
an hour or more outside enjoying himself without leaving the yard.
>
>One of these friends stopped by once when I was outside playing with my
>dog in my yard. He asked if I did tick checks (after such a dangerous
>activity.) I said I did once in a while, but not regularly, and
>proceeded to do one right then and there. We found a tick - just a
>common dog tick - but he seemed satisfied in his assessments of the
>dangers of outside, and I felt embarrassed at how neglectful I was about
>my dog's tick checks.
That's what Frontline is for. Jesus, that guy is a total dumbass. I'm
with David, I hope they die a miserable death if for nothing else, for
being candy ass losers.
http://www.frontline.com/
>
>I think we're evaluating risk differently. In other words, this is
>coming down to a parenting difference.
Buddy also is never crated or penned. He has free roam of the house
and hasn't destroyed anything since he was a pup. He usually just
sleeps at the top of the stairs while we are away or in his recliner
in the family room (he has his own chair:-).
>
>As we were going home my snotty teen-aged daughter chastised me for
>having my dog off-leash in their yard, saying that we needed to respect
>their knowledge of their woods and if THEY thought my dog was endangered
>by their yard then I ought to just believe them. My husband and I very
>carefully chose our words because we didn't want to diss our friends,
>but the gist of it was that they shouldn't emulate them on this point.
>And if the dog IS endangered by something, I want her off-leash so she
>can get away. (What my friends consider "endangering" is attractive
>smells that the dogs would investigate, thereby running off with some
>risk of never being found again.)
>
THEIR knowledge of the woods? It appears they know two things about
the woods, jack and shit. Buddy has never been on a leash in the
woods (nor will he ever be...at least, not in a wood outside the city)
and we spend a great deal of time in the woods and I'm talking about
real woods where the bear, wolves and deer roam and the area
encompassing 100s of square miles. Life is meant to be lived and that
is especially true of dogs in general and Labradors in particular (and
border collies for that matter).
Dally
> Dally <Da...@myself.com> wrote:
>
> <snip... because HOLY CRAP YOU WRITE A LOT!>
Heh. You sound like Queenie. If you don't want to read me, don't read
me. Look to Cohen as an example... he was even courteous enough to
MENTION that he wasn't going to read me as I drone on.
>>And if the dog IS endangered by something, I want her off-leash so she
>>can get away.
>
> http://www.flexiusa.com/
Snort. Ever use these? I have one. I principally like it because we
can use it as a tie-out if we have to tie her to the camper or something
when we're camping. But if we're out walking and she meets up with
another leashed dog and they get into it, this sort of leash becomes a
garrotte and we have scars on our legs to prove it.
We much prefer a one-inch woven leash. If she has to be leashed then
it's probably a good idea for her to be on a heel as well, and the 5'
leash is plenty long enough. It's also lightweight and I wrap it around
my waist when we're running, only using it when we're walking to or from
the park. (My "park" is a state nature reserve, i.e., woods with 17
miles of trails that I rarely see another person on.)
Dally
Curt James
>Curt James wrote:
>
>> Dally <Da...@myself.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip... because HOLY CRAP YOU WRITE A LOT!>
>
>Heh. You sound like Queenie.
Oh, you cut me to the quick! Vicious.
>If you don't want to read me, don't read me.
Don't get defensive. I was stating a fact and it was meant to be
perceived as humor. That's the danger in humor and, especially, in
text. Interpretation, misinterpretation, yadayada.
Anyway. I skim. If something catches my eye, I'll read. If something's
especially interesting, I'll reread.
>Snort. Ever use these? I have one. I principally like it because we
>can use it as a tie-out if we have to tie her to the camper or something
>when we're camping. But if we're out walking and she meets up with
>another leashed dog and they get into it, this sort of leash becomes a
>garrotte and we have scars on our legs to prove it.
Scars? You lie.
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
Lee Michaels
"John Hanson" wrote
>
> Buddy also is never crated or penned. He has free roam of the house
> and hasn't destroyed anything since he was a pup. He usually just
> sleeps at the top of the stairs while we are away or in his recliner
> in the family room (he has his own chair:-).
>
Does Buddy have his own TV too?
;)
Hugh Beyer
4ax.com:
> Dally <Da...@myself.com> wrote:
>>JMW wrote:
>>> Dally <Da...@myself.com> wrote:
>>>>JMW wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Do these friends have very strong religious and/or political views?
>>>>>Just curious.
>>>>
>>>>They are strongly anti-religious, in the same way Cohen is. They
think
>>>>that faith is a failure of intelligence or a lack of imagination or
>>>>evidence of poor scientific training. (One of them was my lab partner
>>>>in physics classes many years ago.)
>>>>
>>>>Their belief in lack of belief is strongly held.
>>>
>>>
>>> Fits the profile. What they believe in wasn't important; it's how
>>> adamant their beliefs are.
>>>
>>> There's no sense in you trying to tell them anything. They already
>>> think they have the answer, and they can't imagine why you don't treat
>>> your dog the same.
>>
>>Hmmm, I guess that makes me the same, too. Not being able to imagine
>>why they don't treat their dog the same, I mean. It partially shakes me
>>up so much because I always considered them to be Master Dog Owners.
>>They are the child-free sort that dote on their dogs. I've watched them
>>dance attendance on their dogs for years. I just never realized before
>>how vastly different their relationship is with their dogs than mine is
>>with my dog.
>>
>>Meanwhile, at this moment they're probably posting over on
>>alt.support.child-free about the horrible invasion of children they just
>>endured. They took off their shoes and waved smelly feet in the air,
>>one tired child cried on the floor without his mother intervening, they
>>constantly needed breakfast, lunch, snack, dinner, games, etc etc etc.
>>I'm sure they're more horrified by me and mine then I was about them and
>>theirs.
>
> They would have raised children the same way: overprotected and
> repressed. And those children would have become utterly intolerable
> adults. And their parents would be mystified as to why that occurred.
>
"Overprotected and repressed." Ain't it the truth. Be glad they don't have
kids.
Hugh
--
Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
chocolate. ("Ladi")
Lee Michaels
"Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote
>
> (What my friends consider "endangering" is attractive smells that the
> dogs would investigate, thereby running off with some risk of never being
> found again.)
>
It is my understanding that the dog brain has a large portion of itself
dedicated to the sense of smell. One of the reasons you take a dog for
walks is to allow that portion of the brain to be exercised. A dog who goes
out and smells things on a regular basis is neurologically healthier than
dogs who just lay around at home or are penned and crated all the time.
Therefore, the dog mistreatment and delusions that your friends share are
causing DOGGIE BRAIN DAMAGE!!
Not that anybody seems to care. Perhaps they want to make the dog's brains
as damaged as their own.
Or something.
John Hanson
<leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
Well, it's a chair that ought to be thrown out but he likes it so we
keep it.
Lee Michaels
"Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote
>
> One of these friends stopped by once when I was outside playing with my
> dog in my yard. He asked if I did tick checks (after such a dangerous
> activity.) I said I did once in a while, but not regularly, and proceeded
> to do one right then and there. We found a tick - just a common dog
> tick - but he seemed satisfied in his assessments of the dangers of
> outside, and I felt embarrassed at how neglectful I was about my dog's
> tick checks.
>
The word politics come from two words.
The first is poly, meaning many.
The second is ticks, meaning bloodsucking parasites.
I "heard" that this is the true orgins of the work politics.
Hugh Beyer
news:vosir1d6rv3jots7r...@4ax.com:
Exactly. Fencing isn't hard; invisible fencing isn't hard; and the risks
are overrated anyway. These are dogs, not plush toys. If you're not
willing to let them be dogs you shouldn't own them.
>>
>>One of these friends stopped by once when I was outside playing with my
>>dog in my yard. He asked if I did tick checks (after such a dangerous
>>activity.) I said I did once in a while, but not regularly, and
>>proceeded to do one right then and there. We found a tick - just a
>>common dog tick - but he seemed satisfied in his assessments of the
>>dangers of outside, and I felt embarrassed at how neglectful I was about
>>my dog's tick checks.
>
> That's what Frontline is for. Jesus, that guy is a total dumbass. I'm
> with David, I hope they die a miserable death if for nothing else, for
> being candy ass losers.
> http://www.frontline.com/
Oh my god. A tick on a dog. And you're buying into this, Dally? Get a
grip.
>>
>>I think we're evaluating risk differently. In other words, this is
>>coming down to a parenting difference.
>
> Buddy also is never crated or penned. He has free roam of the house
> and hasn't destroyed anything since he was a pup. He usually just
> sleeps at the top of the stairs while we are away or in his recliner
> in the family room (he has his own chair:-).
Ditto with our spaniel. If the dog's destroying things, it's a symptom of
a larger problem.
>>
>>As we were going home my snotty teen-aged daughter chastised me for
>>having my dog off-leash in their yard, saying that we needed to respect
>>their knowledge of their woods and if THEY thought my dog was endangered
>>by their yard then I ought to just believe them. My husband and I very
>>carefully chose our words because we didn't want to diss our friends,
>>but the gist of it was that they shouldn't emulate them on this point.
>>And if the dog IS endangered by something, I want her off-leash so she
>>can get away. (What my friends consider "endangering" is attractive
>>smells that the dogs would investigate, thereby running off with some
>>risk of never being found again.)
>>
> THEIR knowledge of the woods? It appears they know two things about
> the woods, jack and shit. Buddy has never been on a leash in the
> woods (nor will he ever be...at least, not in a wood outside the city)
> and we spend a great deal of time in the woods and I'm talking about
> real woods where the bear, wolves and deer roam and the area
> encompassing 100s of square miles. Life is meant to be lived and that
> is especially true of dogs in general and Labradors in particular (and
> border collies for that matter).
>
Diss your friends. This is an opportunity to invoke the "things said in
the family stay in the family" rule. If you can't talk frankly about how
being unwilling to face up to your responsibilities leads to needlessly
cruel behavior, how can you raise your kids?
Stephen
> It is my understanding that the dog brain has a large portion of itself
> dedicated to the sense of smell. One of the reasons you take a dog for
> walks is to allow that portion of the brain to be exercised. A dog who goes
> out and smells things on a regular basis is neurologically healthier than
> dogs who just lay around at home or are penned and crated all the time.
>
> Therefore, the dog mistreatment and delusions that your friends share are
> causing DOGGIE BRAIN DAMAGE!!
>
> Not that anybody seems to care. Perhaps they want to make the dog's brains
> as damaged as their own.
>
> Or something.
It really boils down to one thing. If you don't want a dog, don't get
one. If you don't want to take a dog out and let him do dog things, you
don't want a dog. Anyone who thinks crating a dog is a valid
alternative to teaching him not to steal food from the dinner table is
an idiot.
I don't even know why we are commenting on this. These people are
morons. They should have plants. Or cats. I hate cats.
Stephen Nishio
David Cohen
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote
> "Dally" <Da...@myself.com> wrote
>>
>> (What my friends consider "endangering" is attractive smells that the
>> dogs would investigate, thereby running off with some risk of never being
>> found again.)
>>
> Maybe Mr Cohen can help me with this one.
I charge by the hour.
> It is my understanding that the dog brain has a large portion of itself
> dedicated to the sense of smell. One of the reasons you take a dog for
> walks is to allow that portion of the brain to be exercised. A dog who
> goes out and smells things on a regular basis is neurologically healthier
> than dogs who just lay around at home or are penned and crated all the
> time.
>
> Therefore, the dog mistreatment and delusions that your friends share are
> causing DOGGIE BRAIN DAMAGE!!
>
> Not that anybody seems to care. Perhaps they want to make the dog's
> brains as damaged as their own.
>
> Or something.
Something.
Dogs are incredibly social, emotional, animals. Their psychological health
is more important than their physical. I, and most dogs I suspect, would
rather see a dog have a slightly shorter, happy. life, than an emotionally
sterile, longer, life.
This is the worst case, that I have ever heard of, of dogs being physically
extremely well cared for, and severely psychologically damaged. Worse than
labs using dogs in medical experiments. And with absolutely no excuse.
David
Hugh Beyer
6DD332.010...@corp.supernews.com:
> In article <e8fhr15f5ml8gokaa...@4ax.com>,
> Curt James <cwj...@psu.edu> wrote:
>
>> I'd hate to be an effing bird in one of those tiny cage or how about
>> those poor Betas? That would suck. Like living in a coffin.
>>
>> http://oregonstate.edu/~yonallyb/buddha.jpg
>
> That's evil. :-(
> My Betta is at least in a 1.5 gallon tank with filter and plants and
> stuff...
Get a grip. This is just the flip side of the same mistake Dally's friends
are making.
Bettas live in stagnant ponds. The only think they do in life is blow bubble
nests, fight other bettas, and make more bettas. They don't need a lot of
space or a filter.
Dogs are a whole lot more complex, have much greater needs and a much
greater capability of carrying on a relationship with their owners. The
point here is not to treat all animals like humans, but to treat them like
the animals they are. Dally's friends are treating their dogs like a betta,
and that's not okay.
And crate-training a puppy, or giving a dog a crate to sleep in, is entirely
different from caging a full-grown dog all the time.
Dally
> Dally's friends are treating their dogs like a betta,
> and that's not okay.
Actually, they're being treated like their cocketiels.
HTH.
Dally
Dally
> Anyone who thinks crating a dog is a valid
> alternative to teaching him not to steal food from the dinner table is
> an idiot.
Hey! I resemble that remark. See, that's where I thought it was okay
to crate: occasionally, for limited durations. I've had very limited
success in training her not to counter surf. This particular dog is a
ravenous Labrador who has been known to eat things like my make-up bag
and the Gingerbread house my daughter just made for Christmas. (We
called the damage to that "Hurricane Ela.")
Perhaps I ought to spend more time on training her not to eat all
available food, but instead we manage her lack of internal controls via
external controls: we don't leave food lying about and if we must, we
separate her physically from it. (Sometimes it means closing her in
another room or putting her on a tie-out outside, not necessarily
crating her.)
If anyone has any hints on how to train her not to eat food left within
reach, I'm listening. So far what we've tried is to put metal pan lids
precariously on the counters with peanut butter and a bunch of coins in
it. When she goes for the peanutbutter she tips the coins over and it
makes a big noise. We have successfully taught her not to lick
peanutbutter from pan lids.
Dally
dami...@oldman.org
<jha...@northernlinks.com> wrote:
<snip>
Invisible fencing doesn't work for all dogs.
IInvisible fencing doesn't prevent other dogs (and others in general)
from coming into Buddy's territory.
>
Frontline is not infallible.
There are a number of things to take into consideration when deciding
whether or not to let a dog go off leash.
dami...@oldman.org
> How many clones of Josef Mengele did the Nazis produce?
. . . . . . . . . . . .
>This is the worst case, that I have ever heard of, of dogs being physically
>extremely well cared for, and severely psychologically damaged. Worse than
>labs using dogs in medical experiments. And with absolutely no excuse.
The behavior of these people is very disturbing and I would be
surprised if the dogs haven't been psychologically warped.
IOTOH, I wouldn't compare these deluded, ignorant but apparently
well-intentioned dogs owners to Dr. Josef Mengele and his depraved
experimentation on human beings.
>
The Queen of Cans and Jars
My mother's cockatiels had more freedom than your friends' dogs.
HTH.
(Seriously, listen to Lee and David. Your friends suck.)
Dally
> Dally <Da...@myself.com> wrote:
> (Seriously, listen to Lee and David. Your friends suck.)
Hey, if you were me, would you be choosy about friends?
Dally
JMW
>John Hanson <jha...@northernlinks.com> wrote:
>
>> Dally <Da...@myself.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>I think we're evaluating risk differently. In other words, this is
>>>coming down to a parenting difference.
>>
>> Buddy also is never crated or penned. He has free roam of the house
>> and hasn't destroyed anything since he was a pup. He usually just
>> sleeps at the top of the stairs while we are away or in his recliner
>> in the family room (he has his own chair:-).
>
>Ditto with our spaniel. If the dog's destroying things, it's a symptom of
>a larger problem.
Exactly. It's usually a combination of boredom and the dog's
resentment that you're not paying attention to him/her. Captive
wolves and wolf-hybrids are particularly prone to destroying property
because of that. People who don't pay attention to their canines are
just asking for this to happen, at least while the canines are fairly
young. Constant crating/kenneling away from other dogs and humans
will easily create this problem.
OmManiPadmeOmelet
"David Cohen" <sammi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Not that anybody seems to care. Perhaps they want to make the dog's
> > brains as damaged as their own.
> >
> > Or something.
>
> Something.
>
> Dogs are incredibly social, emotional, animals. Their psychological health
> is more important than their physical. I, and most dogs I suspect, would
> rather see a dog have a slightly shorter, happy. life, than an emotionally
> sterile, longer, life.
>
> This is the worst case, that I have ever heard of, of dogs being physically
> extremely well cared for, and severely psychologically damaged. Worse than
> labs using dogs in medical experiments. And with absolutely no excuse.
>
> David
The worst case of dog abuse in History:
http://www.spacetoday.org/Astronauts/Animals/Dogs.html
--
Om.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson
OmManiPadmeOmelet
wrote:
The New Years party I just attended had a unique view on that...
Paul feels that if a dog is not FED people food (treats not in the dogs
food dish), they will not anticipate treats or consider human food to be
food.
Wilma, his german shepard/chow cross, showed no interest whatsoever in
the food spread that was put out for guests. Guests were forbidden to
hand feed Wilma or any of his other dogs.
Seems to have worked for him!
It takes a lot of time and conditioning evidently.
Dally
> In article <41tho6F...@individual.net>, Dally <Da...@myself.com>
> wrote:
>>If anyone has any hints on how to train her not to eat food left within
>>reach, I'm listening. So far what we've tried is to put metal pan lids
>>precariously on the counters with peanut butter and a bunch of coins in
>>it. When she goes for the peanutbutter she tips the coins over and it
>>makes a big noise. We have successfully taught her not to lick
>>peanutbutter from pan lids.
>>
>
> The New Years party I just attended had a unique view on that...
>
> Paul feels that if a dog is not FED people food (treats not in the dogs
> food dish), they will not anticipate treats or consider human food to be
> food.
My dog has always, since infancy, been fed only in her dish (with the
exception of dog buiscuits/treats we carry in our pocket for training.)
She has never once been fed from the table.
She routinely will lie on the floor in the room we're in and that
includes the diningroom when we're at dinner, but if someone is going to
give her a bone or something we take it to her food dish and put it in
there.
> Wilma, his german shepard/chow cross, showed no interest whatsoever in
> the food spread that was put out for guests.
This is not my experience with labrador retrievers in general and my dog
specifically. One of her penchants is for bread in plastic bags. If we
leave bread out she will eat it. I had half a fruit cake on the counter
before Christmas and she ate it while it was on the cutting board
waiting for the next guest to have a slice.
> Seems to have worked for him!
Your method appears to be, "he doesn't want it and it hasn't occurred to
him to eat it." What happens when you've got a dog that wants to eat
EVERYTHING all the time?
> It takes a lot of time and conditioning evidently.
I don't get how to apply it.
Dally
The Queen of Cans and Jars
David Cohen
<dami...@oldman.org> wrote
Done for impact, without actually meant to portray them as equivilant.
Obviously.
But your point is taken, and accepted.
David
Hugh Beyer
This is where I think you have to adapt to the dog as well as training it
to work with you. Every lab I've ever met has been a chow hound, and I
think there's a limit to how much you can train it out of them.
Crating it when you need it out of the way doesn't seem so terrible.
dami...@oldman.org
<Ome...@brokenegz.com> wrote:
>The worst case of dog abuse in History:
>
>http://www.spacetoday.org/Astronauts/Animals/Dogs.html
So many examples to choose from. . .
Stephen
> Stephen wrote:
>
>> Anyone who thinks crating a dog is a valid alternative to teaching him
>> not to steal food from the dinner table is an idiot.
> If anyone has any hints on how to train her not to eat food left within
> reach, I'm listening. So far what we've tried is to put metal pan lids
> precariously on the counters with peanut butter and a bunch of coins in
> it. When she goes for the peanutbutter she tips the coins over and it
> makes a big noise. We have successfully taught her not to lick
> peanutbutter from pan lids.
The dog has to KNOW that your food is not for him, even if he can smell
it, even if he can see it and even if he can reach it. Dogs are very
social animals and they do better when they understand where they stand
in the social hierarchy. Even a pureberd sooner has a canine
understanding of who is the boss.
Some dogs are easier to train to this but almost all dogs can learn the
discipline, especially if they are taught early. A lot of people are
afraid to discipline their dogs and what usually end up happening is the
dogs sees himself as an equal. Why then, shouldn't he take your food?
A dog should be treated as an equal when he sprouts opposable thumbs,
pays rent and buys you a beer.
Stephen N. ---> even then he's not allowed to use the remote...
Dally
> Dally wrote:
>
>> Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone who thinks crating a dog is a valid alternative to teaching
>>> him not to steal food from the dinner table is an idiot.
>
>
>> If anyone has any hints on how to train her not to eat food left
>> within reach, I'm listening. So far what we've tried is to put metal
>> pan lids precariously on the counters with peanut butter and a bunch
>> of coins in it. When she goes for the peanutbutter she tips the coins
>> over and it makes a big noise. We have successfully taught her not to
>> lick peanutbutter from pan lids.
>
>
> The dog has to KNOW that your food is not for him, even if he can smell
> it, even if he can see it and even if he can reach it. Dogs are very
> social animals and they do better when they understand where they stand
> in the social hierarchy. Even a pureberd sooner has a canine
> understanding of who is the boss.
Agreed. We worked with our then-three-year old to get him to be
dominant over the dog. When we first got the puppy the littlest child
would squeal and roll over on his back. We knew that the dog would be
boss over him if we didn't squelch it then and there. Luckily, three
year old children can be trained to stomp their feet and use a bossy
tone of voice. We understand the concept of a pack.
But I'm at a loss over how to persuade her that food within her reach
isn't for her to eat. Aversion doesn't work because she gets the reward
of the food. Her other training methods are love and food. She only
steals when we're not watching, so it's not like we've ever praised her
for it.
> Some dogs are easier to train to this but almost all dogs can learn the
> discipline, especially if they are taught early. A lot of people are
> afraid to discipline their dogs and what usually end up happening is the
> dogs sees himself as an equal. Why then, shouldn't he take your food?
When you say discipline, are you saying I ought to beat my dog if I come
home and find she's eaten the kid's lunch box? (Actually, she has eaten
ALL of our lunch boxes. People leave them out on the counter at the end
of the day and Ela takes them, rips them open and eats the leftovers.)
It always feels like it's too late to me. By the time she's
transgressed it is ancient history to her.
How DO you teach a Lab not to eat food?
> A dog should be treated as an equal when he sprouts opposable thumbs,
> pays rent and buys you a beer.
We struggle with "heel" in that she thinks it's fine if she's ahead of
me. I make frequent left turns to persuade her that keeping behind my
footfall is in her best interests. (Yes, she gets kneed in the ribs.
No, it isn't brutality.) We also sometimes have trouble with her going
through doors ahead of us. But other than that, she displays fine
submissive pack mentality. She wants to lick my face and go where I go.
And steal food.
> Stephen N. ---> even then he's not allowed to use the remote...
She can have the remote. My big fear is that she'll figure out how to
open cupboards.
Dally
Lee Michaels
"Stephen" wrote
An old farm trick for stopping dogs from eating eggs is to drill a small
hole in the end of the shell and load it up with chili powder. Dogs have
good memories and if you spice up the food that is left out on countertops
sufficently, they will quickly associate anything up there on the
counter/table with some bad, fire-in the-mouth experiences.
It ain't rocket science. It is just a matter of extablishing who is the apha
male/female. Which, apparently, has not been done at Dally's household yet.
I have known people to put mouse traps up there as well. I read recently of
somebody who had all the neighborhood cats pee outside their kitchen window.
No matter what he did, they kept comeing back and stinking up the place. A
dozen mous traps put down on the ground did the trick. He heard some of the
traps go off, along with some howls of protest. But none of the cats have
been back since.
Just use doggie language. Communicate in a way that they will understand.
And establish who is boss. After, who's house is this anyway?
The Queen of Cans and Jars
> How DO you teach a Lab not to eat food?
Why is it so hard for you to leave food out of her reach? You know
she'll go for it, so why leave it where she can get it? I used to
dog-sit a pair of Siberian Huskies who were experts at finding &
consuming things they weren't supposed to, but as long as everything was
put away there was rarely a problem.
Bag...@gmail.com
Dally
Agreed, and that's the "external" controls I'm using. It's not 100%
effective, though, because we aren't obsessive about making sure the dog
is crated, penned or on a leash at all times in the house as a failsafe
backup to make sure she doesn't access food. She typically gets food
that is left out while people are still eating, i.e., we're making
sandwiches and stuff is out on the counter and the phone rings and I
head to my desk and a kid wanders away and someone goes upstairs and
suddenly food is left out on the counter unattended - and GONE.
The other time she gets into things is when we leave for a few minutes,
like go to pick up a kid after school. She must go into immediate
scavenge mode because that's when she goes into children's rooms and
opens up Christmas presents that contain food, or gets a Balance bar out
of my duffel bag, or destroys empty lunch boxes looking for food.
I'm not saying there is ALWAYS a spare Balance Bar or lunch box or bag
of cookies left out, just that it happens often enough so that she gets
a steady payoff from it. A family of five just has too many points of
contact with food to ever totally remove the possibility that the dog
will come into contact with it.
But people are saying that you can give the dog "internal" controls
through training. So I'm asking, how do you train a dog with a strong
drive to scavenge NOT to scavenge?
Dally
Dally
> I have not stated the obvious here.
>
> An old farm trick for stopping dogs from eating eggs is to drill a small
> hole in the end of the shell and load it up with chili powder. Dogs have
> good memories and if you spice up the food that is left out on countertops
> sufficently, they will quickly associate anything up there on the
> counter/table with some bad, fire-in the-mouth experiences.
I can do this - leave some of her favorite sandwich bread out having
covered it in cayenne pepper or something. What would be a good choice
that won't sicken her?
As I said, I've done that with the peanutbutter and pot lids, but it
really didn't associate the counter with anything, just pot lids. There
have been too many payoffs over the years, and it's not just the
counter: it's the breakfast nook and the table on the screened in porch
and the diningroom table and the stove top. (She ate a pot of chili
once. Hmmm, maybe she LIKES chili powder.)
And it's coat pockets and backpacks and lunch bags and gifts sent in the
mail... she detects food that no one else knows is there. And eats it.
We can make some of it unpalatable, but can be ever make enough of it
unpalatable?
> It ain't rocket science. It is just a matter of extablishing who is the apha
> male/female. Which, apparently, has not been done at Dally's household yet.
So you're saying the dog is dominant over us because she sneaks food? I
don't see that. She wouldn't CONTEST us for food we were presently eating.
> I have known people to put mouse traps up there as well. I read recently of
> somebody who had all the neighborhood cats pee outside their kitchen window.
> No matter what he did, they kept comeing back and stinking up the place. A
> dozen mous traps put down on the ground did the trick. He heard some of the
> traps go off, along with some howls of protest. But none of the cats have
> been back since.
That's a lovely story. Brought tears to my eyes. I will share it with
my husband who shares my opinion of the bird-killing coyote-feeding
oversized rats crapping in my vegetable garden.
> Just use doggie language. Communicate in a way that they will understand.
> And establish who is boss. After, who's house is this anyway?
I'm still not getting how you establish who is boss by poisoning food
she is expected to eat when we're not there.
Dally
The Queen of Cans and Jars
I think it was Lee who just suggested a form of aversion therapy, which
I definitely endorse. Leave untasty treats on the counter for her and
perhaps she'll stop thinking that's a good place to go for a treat.
That, and toughen the hell up on not leaving stuff out for her.
Designate a cupboard as the place to stick whatever it is you'd normally
leave on the counter, and don't tempt her so much. She's got a small
brain and she loves to eat (bless her furry little head), and she
already knows you won't do much about it unless you catch her directly
in the act, so she doesn't have much incentive to change her ways.
I don't have a dog, so you're free to discount my advice if you like,
but my cat knows very well what it means when I pick up the spray
bottle, and you best believe that he behaves accordingly. Begging for
food ceases immediately. It only took two or three spraying incidents
for him to come around to my way of thinking. I think most animals will
learn to alter their behavior very quickly if it results in a negative
payoff.
Lee Michaels
"Dally" laments
Uhhhh....., Dally, curb your Stephan King imagination now.
We are not talking arsenic or rat poison here. We are talking about what you
have on your spice shelf or what you can buy at the store.
And we are talking about a begavior that you tolerate. Setting up booby
traps everywhere would indicate clearly that you will no longer tolerate it.
Ela has gotten away with this for quite some time. It will take a dramatic
gesture to change her behavior.
Dally
> "Dally" laments
>>I'm still not getting how you establish who is boss by poisoning food she
>>is expected to eat when we're not there.
>
> Uhhhh....., Dally, curb your Stephan King imagination now.
Is it showing? We were just talking about Stephen King. (I spent New
Year's in his town in Maine.)
> We are not talking arsenic or rat poison here. We are talking about what you
> have on your spice shelf or what you can buy at the store.
What would you recommend? I seem to recall some sort of bitter apple
thing we had for furniture when she was a puppy. (She had a brief phase
where she was too interested in the turned legs of some antique furniture.)
> And we are talking about a begavior that you tolerate. Setting up booby
> traps everywhere would indicate clearly that you will no longer tolerate it.
> Ela has gotten away with this for quite some time. It will take a dramatic
> gesture to change her behavior.
The interesting thing about this is that we NEVER tolerated it. From
the beginning we've done some combination of aversion therapy, crating
her and putting away food. It's just that there have been enough
slip-ups over enough time so the cumulative lesson to her is that if she
tries hard enough long enough she'll get something to eat somehow.
To have a fail-safe mechanism for making her avoid food I think we'd
have to institute some sort of lockdown on food that would be traumatic
to the children who live here. I'm picturing patting them down as they
enter the house to see if they left a brownie or pack of gum in their
coat pocket and setting guards at the three kitchen doors. (Three kids,
three doors, it could work.) We could change this, but are we willing
to change enough to make it happen?
I'll go try some aversion therapy. It tickles me to contemplate bitter
apple on the bread. But I know it won't stop the behavior completely.
It's too hard-wired.
Dally
Curt James
And the self-deprecation in humor society awards its bi-weekly prize
to...
Wen, no, Dil, no, Dol, er, Dally!
(rolls out giant gold plaque with the engraved words ba dump and bump
inscribed)
Congratulations!
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
Lee Michaels
"The Queen of Cans and Jars" purred
>
> I don't have a dog, so you're free to discount my advice if you like,
> but my cat knows very well what it means when I pick up the spray
> bottle, and you best believe that he behaves accordingly. Begging for
> food ceases immediately. It only took two or three spraying incidents
> for him to come around to my way of thinking. I think most animals will
> learn to alter their behavior very quickly if it results in a negative
> payoff.
Ahhhh....., kitty cat memories.
I had this kitten who did not want to behave. So I had my wife pick up a
squirt gum. It didn't work. We got another squirt gun. It lasted about an
hour. We got a spray bottle, which got misplaced. So I got one of those
big, pump up, artillery version of a squirt gun in assorted neon colors. The
thing even looked scary.
I let the cat have it with that monster squirt gun and it got religion.
Only had to use it about five times. It behaved itself very well after that.
Maybe Dally should get a fire hose. It could work.
Curt James
re dogs in crates, however large or small, and how it all relates to
Dally
>If you can't talk frankly about how being unwilling
>to face up to your responsibilities leads to needlessly
>cruel behavior,
This is getting a little too dramatic, in my opinion.
Dog brain damage? Dog persecution, abuse, etc.
Slow-moving cancers that will painfully eat the dogowners ALIVE!
Dear dog lovers,
Please get a life.
>how can you raise your kids?
Jeebus. Stop being a freak, would you?
Or, no, it's me. Let me jump on this bandwagon immediately:
DALLY, HOW CAN YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF!!!!???!?!?!?
--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/
Stephen
> But I'm at a loss over how to persuade her that food within her reach
> isn't for her to eat. Aversion doesn't work because she gets the reward
> of the food. Her other training methods are love and food. She only
> steals when we're not watching, so it's not like we've ever praised her
> for it.
It is way late now but even so you have to make the dog associate
something bad with eating your food. You should probably take the dog
to obedience classes or training. There are some pretty amazing dog
trainers out there and your dog can probably be taught to leave your
food alone.
> When you say discipline, are you saying I ought to beat my dog if I come
> home and find she's eaten the kid's lunch box?...
> It always feels like it's too late to me. By the time she's
> transgressed it is ancient history to her.
It is too late. You obviously cannot leave your food unattended, at
least until she learns better. That may never be but you should at
least be able to get her to the point where you can leave food on the
table when you are in the room.
There is no point in beating the crap out of a dog especially so long
after she had committed the crime. You have to catch her in, or just
before the act.
>
> How DO you teach a Lab not to eat food?
You can't. But you can teach her not to eat YOUR food.
Stephen N.
Dally
> DALLY, HOW CAN YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF!!!!???!?!?!?
It's easier without a fire hose, I'll grant you that.
Dally
Dally
> It is way late now but even so you have to make the dog associate
> something bad with eating your food.
<snip>
> you should at
> least be able to get her to the point where you can leave food on the
> table when you are in the room.
Just to clarify, the dog doesn't eat food while we're in the room, just
unattended food. And sometimes things we don't think of as food, like
wrapped Christmas presents (that turn out to contain food) or the
Gingerbread house (we thought of as decoration) and, of course, fruit
cake. (I have to admit to being relieved that she ate it, not me.)
Dally
Stephen
> I let the cat have it with that monster squirt gun and it got religion.
> Only had to use it about five times. It behaved itself very well after that.
Oh how I have fantasized about turning the big ass, 1 litre per shot,
water launcher on the girlfriends vicious little feline. That cat is
pure evil. I tried a little plant squirter on her when "no one" was
looking and the cat threw a wall of hissing, spitting hatred my way. I
felt like that guy in Jaws that said something like, "we need a bigger
boat, right?".
Now we have an understanding. I understand I have to throw pencils at
the cat until she runs out the window. Presumably to go kill something...
Stephen N.
Stephen
> Just to clarify, the dog doesn't eat food while we're in the room, just
> unattended food. And sometimes things we don't think of as food, like
> wrapped Christmas presents (that turn out to contain food) or the
> Gingerbread house (we thought of as decoration) and, of course, fruit
> cake. (I have to admit to being relieved that she ate it, not me.)
I have an odd tradition of eating my favourite aunts christmas cake with
tea for breakfast every christmas day. It's really very good but I
never even think of eating it any other time even if it is in front of me.
Yogi would have to get an ass whoopin' if he ate my christmas breakfast.
We'd both hate that.
Stephen Nishio
John Hanson
misc.fitness.weights:
>On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 12:56:25 -0600, John Hanson
><jha...@northernlinks.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>Invisible fencing doesn't work for all dogs.
>IInvisible fencing doesn't prevent other dogs (and others in general)
>from coming into Buddy's territory.
Yes, Buddy enjoys having friends over. He's extremely friendly with
other dogs and he's big enough to take care of himself. He also gets
Heartguard every month along with Frontline.
>>
>Frontline is not infallible.
It's guaranteed and I've seen it work. Even so, is getting a tick a
death sentence?
>
>There are a number of things to take into consideration when deciding
>whether or not to let a dog go off leash.
>
John Hanson
misc.fitness.weights:
>Stephen wrote:
>
>> Anyone who thinks crating a dog is a valid
>> alternative to teaching him not to steal food from the dinner table is
>> an idiot.
>
>Hey! I resemble that remark. See, that's where I thought it was okay
>to crate: occasionally, for limited durations. I've had very limited
>success in training her not to counter surf. This particular dog is a
>ravenous Labrador who has been known to eat things like my make-up bag
>and the Gingerbread house my daughter just made for Christmas. (We
>called the damage to that "Hurricane Ela.")
>
>Perhaps I ought to spend more time on training her not to eat all
>available food, but instead we manage her lack of internal controls via
>external controls: we don't leave food lying about and if we must, we
>separate her physically from it. (Sometimes it means closing her in
>another room or putting her on a tie-out outside, not necessarily
>crating her.)
>
>If anyone has any hints on how to train her not to eat food left within
>reach, I'm listening. So far what we've tried is to put metal pan lids
>precariously on the counters with peanut butter and a bunch of coins in
>it. When she goes for the peanutbutter she tips the coins over and it
>makes a big noise. We have successfully taught her not to lick
>peanutbutter from pan lids.
>
Tell her no. It works for Buddy.
Stephen
> I have not stated the obvious here.
>
> An old farm trick for stopping dogs from eating eggs is to drill a small
> hole in the end of the shell and load it up with chili powder. Dogs have
> good memories and if you spice up the food that is left out on countertops
> sufficently, they will quickly associate anything up there on the
> counter/table with some bad, fire-in the-mouth experiences.
>
> It ain't rocket science. It is just a matter of extablishing who is the apha
> male/female. Which, apparently, has not been done at Dally's household yet.
>
> I have known people to put mouse traps up there as well. I read recently of
> somebody who had all the neighborhood cats pee outside their kitchen window.
> No matter what he did, they kept comeing back and stinking up the place. A
> dozen mous traps put down on the ground did the trick. He heard some of the
> traps go off, along with some howls of protest. But none of the cats have
> been back since.
>
> Just use doggie language. Communicate in a way that they will understand.
> And establish who is boss. After, who's house is this anyway?
That's why I make sure I pee on any new furniture I get...
Some dogs are better than others but generally they all get the alpha
male thing. Sometimes you have to do stuff the dog doesn't like to make
sure he knows not to fuck with you. That doesn't mean beating the crap
out of him but grabbing him and growling in his face is language he
understands.
About the time when my blonde fool of a dog grew tall enough to see what
was on the counter, he discovered the evenings roast beef left there
unguarded. I caught him just as he was walking off with it. He got a
good whack and a whole lotta yelling and growling. I not only took the
meat away, I took a cloth and wiped his mouth out so he couldn't even
enjoy the flavor of it.
He followed me around with his tail between his legs for the rest of the
evening. He was about 8 months old then. He had another "almost got
one" a little while after that and the same thing happened. After that
I'd just growled a bit when he even looked at the counter and he'd piss
right off.
Now I can leave a coffee table full of sandwiches in front of him and he
won't touch it even if I leave the room, but I try not to do this. It
would be stupid to tempt him, just giving him an oppourtunity to fail.
I think that most/all discipline problems with him stem from the woman.
She doesn't like the sad face he makes when I am strict with him.
Why is it women think that being strict with the dog is being mean?
Stephen Nishio ---> BTW I'm okay with the mousetrap/cat thing. Cats are
bad.
John Hanson
misc.fitness.weights:
>OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
>
>> In article <41tho6F...@individual.net>, Dally <Da...@myself.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>If anyone has any hints on how to train her not to eat food left within
>>>reach, I'm listening. So far what we've tried is to put metal pan lids
>>>precariously on the counters with peanut butter and a bunch of coins in
>>>it. When she goes for the peanutbutter she tips the coins over and it
>>>makes a big noise. We have successfully taught her not to lick
>>>peanutbutter from pan lids.
>>>
>>
>> The New Years party I just attended had a unique view on that...
>>
>> Paul feels that if a dog is not FED people food (treats not in the dogs
>> food dish), they will not anticipate treats or consider human food to be
>> food.
>
>My dog has always, since infancy, been fed only in her dish (with the
>exception of dog buiscuits/treats we carry in our pocket for training.)
> She has never once been fed from the table.
Buddy gets a portion of the evening meal cooked for him. That's my
wife's doing.
>
>She routinely will lie on the floor in the room we're in and that
>includes the diningroom when we're at dinner, but if someone is going to
>give her a bone or something we take it to her food dish and put it in
>there.
>
>> Wilma, his german shepard/chow cross, showed no interest whatsoever in
>> the food spread that was put out for guests.
>
>This is not my experience with labrador retrievers in general and my dog
>specifically. One of her penchants is for bread in plastic bags. If we
>leave bread out she will eat it. I had half a fruit cake on the counter
>before Christmas and she ate it while it was on the cutting board
>waiting for the next guest to have a slice.
Buddy never goes on the counter. Well, once he took a stick of butter
off and ate it but that was quite some time ago.
>
>> Seems to have worked for him!
>
>Your method appears to be, "he doesn't want it and it hasn't occurred to
>him to eat it." What happens when you've got a dog that wants to eat
>EVERYTHING all the time?
>
>> It takes a lot of time and conditioning evidently.
>
>I don't get how to apply it.
>
Just say no. But, that's easy to say to a well fed dog.
EatMe
think their dogs are escape risks so take thorough measures to ensure
that their dogs won't be endangered by getting loose.<<
If they are that pathetically so OCD maybe they SHOULDN'T OWN DOGS!!
Geez Louise, get a grip. These folks have issues much larger than any
canine and any discussion of their treatment of said canines is
irrelevant as long as they are this disfunctional.
Perhaps they spy on each other as well? After all, all humans are
prone to sin. And just because you don't think your spouse is screwing
your neighbor's houseplant doesn't mean they aren't.
Maybe you should suggest that to them. See if they carry it to the
extreme they have with their pets (and their control issues) and kill
each other.
Lamers. Utter. Fucking. Lamers. Proly drive down the Interstate on
cruise control all smug at the posted speed limit IN THE LEFT LANE!!!
Kill'em....thank God they're childless.
Lee Michaels
"Dally" wrote
You better watch it there Dally.
You could get busted by the ASPCA if they knew that you fed fruit cake to
your dog. :)