Martial arts classes vs. gym membership - why the huge price difference?
Peter Rosa
school to see about signing up for a weekly class. I had done a
semester of Judo in college many moons ago and had really liked it.
In any event, I talked for a while with the proprietor of the Judo
school. He's a man in his 60's, though very fit-looking, who has run
the school on a full-time basis since retiring from another job a
couple years ago. A couple of other people assist him part-time,
teaching an occasional class in Wing Chun and submission grappling.
The school (or "dojo" as he called it) is basically a single
mat-covered room in a small strip mall, empty except for a Swiss ball
and a couple of punching bags. I'd guess it at no more than 500
square feet, in other words about the size of the living room in a
nice suburban house. Now, the gym where I'm a member, about five
miles away from the Judo dojo, is far larger, at least 15,000 square
feet, equipped with more than 50 pieces of cardio equipment, weight
machines galore (including the entire Hammerstrength product line),
and a big selection of free weights. There are about 10 to 15
employees, at least two of whom are always on duty at any given time.
There also is a big selection of aerobics classes, taught in a room
that itself is twice the size of the Judo dojo.
Anyway, after I had finished talking with the Judo teacher, he told me
that the cost of taking classes is $100 per month, with the first
three months payable in advance. For that, an adult can take a
maximum of three classes per week. Needless to say, hearing the price
pretty muck kiboshed my interest. Now in contrast, the gym charges
$43 per month for an unlimited membership, with no contracts. For
that price, one can go seven days a week - and the gym's open almost
18 hours a day - and take any number of aerobics classes if one's so
inclined. It should go without saying that the gym's capital and
operational costs are many many times those of the Judo dojo's. So
why in the world is Judo so vastly more expensive? Is it a supply-and
demand situation?
--
Peter Rosa
pros...@yahoo.com
Lee Michaels
"Peter Rosa" <pros...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:41d2a06a.03061...@posting.google.com...
You can go to the gym and train without somebody else.
Judo requires both instruction and folks to train with.
Lyle McDonald
Also, volume. An average lower scale gym may have thousands of paying
customers are any one time, a tiny percentage of which actually show up
to use the facilities. Quite in fact, many gyms base their numbers
around that fact: that most people who sign a year contract won't ever
come back (or will come once or twice and that's it). Martial arts
classes don't have that so they have to charge more/customer.
Lyle
Steve Freides
At the martial arts school at which I study, the charge is the same,
$100 per month, but there is no upper limit on the number of classes you
can take. However, it's worth mentioning that 3 classes a week is a
*lot*, especially if, as in my school, you are asked to take various
things to a max or near max effort often, sometimes in every class.
Still, if I didn't lift and do the other things I do, I would consider
taking class every day and, for $100 per month, I think you ought to be
able to go every day. Most folks at my school attend 2 classes per
week. I try to get to 3 but because of work, family committments, or
just fatigue, I get to 2 classes most weeks and 3 less than half the
time of late.
Like Lee said, check out the price at the gym of having a personal
trainer for even :30 minutes each time you go and you'll find the dojang
much cheaper.
-S-
Peter Rosa
> Peter Rosa wrote:
[snip]
It would be possible to take a maximum of three classes per week at
the Judo school because that's all they have available for adults.
There are five more weekly adult classes, but they're on weekday
mornings and therefore not suitable for most working people.
I don't know why I didn't think of the "economies of scale" issue
earlier. The gym may be far more expensive to operate than the Judo
school but might well have a hundred times as many members.
Now, if the gym could be persuaded to add Judo to the repetoire of
aerobics classes it now offers, that would be the best of all worlds
....
--
Peter Rosa
pros...@yahoo.com
Eric Witte
> that the cost of taking classes is $100 per month, with the first
> three months payable in advance. For that, an adult can take a
> maximum of three classes per week. Needless to say, hearing the price
> pretty muck kiboshed my interest. Now in contrast, the gym charges
> $43 per month for an unlimited membership, with no contracts. For
> that price, one can go seven days a week - and the gym's open almost
> 18 hours a day - and take any number of aerobics classes if one's so
> inclined. It should go without saying that the gym's capital and
> operational costs are many many times those of the Judo dojo's. So
> why in the world is Judo so vastly more expensive? Is it a supply-and
> demand situation?
I would say that is a good price although I've never priced Judo.
When I first started working out I went to a gym that was personal
trainer only. It was a fairly small place with 3 trainers that used
to be in the NFL. There were three 1 hour sessions each week and it
cost $300/mo. Really that came out cheaper than using a PT at 24 hour
fitness with the added bonus that they seemed to know what they were
doing :)
Eric
circusgirl
I suggest checking out the rec.martial-arts newbie FAQ (quick google
should turn it up) re advice for choosing a school.
Donnla.
gps
>
> It should go without saying that the gym's capital and
> operational costs are many many times those of the Judo dojo's. So
> why in the world is Judo so vastly more expensive? Is it a supply-and
> demand situation?
If you paid for a personal trainer at the gym, how much would that run
you? Granted, you're not receiving one on one instruction at a martial
arts school, but you should receive a decent amount of personal
attention from an instructor and senior students. These people are the
equivalent of Ph.D.'s and expert consultants, if you're at a decent
school, and their time is valuable.
ps
king abiu
This is a very unusual situation - Judo is renowned for being very
cheap (and effective!). By far the vast majority of Judo training is
run by volunteers, in not-for-profit situations. You usually find
them at local YMCA, or Police/Community/Youth club, or Universities,
for _far_ less. i pay only $3.00 a session. This guy is running his
dojo as a business, not that there's anything wrong with that.
~charlie
Steve Freides
Ah, our school has classes 3 or 4 classes every weekday afternoon and
evening. There's a class suitable for adults at 6pm and another at
7:30pm every day of the week and again on Saturday mornings. Some
people come for the 6 o'clock class and stay for the 7:30 class - tough
stuff!
> I don't know why I didn't think of the "economies of scale" issue
> earlier. The gym may be far more expensive to operate than the Judo
> school but might well have a hundred times as many members.
> Now, if the gym could be persuaded to add Judo to the repetoire of
> aerobics classes it now offers, that would be the best of all worlds
Lot's of YMCA's offer martials arts stuff but the quality is highly
variable, at least that's what I've heard.
-S-
dudara
you are pushed. I train twice a week for 30 euro a month (not far off
$30, I think). My instructor is incredibly good, affiliated to an
excellent organisation (in other words, he is not a chancer). I do
think $100 p/month seems expensive, but was it in a city centre
dojang?
Wendy Marsden
> Anyway, after I had finished talking with the Judo teacher, he told me
> that the cost of taking classes is $100 per month, with the first
> three months payable in advance. For that, an adult can take a
> maximum of three classes per week.
You don't get just instruction at the dojo, you are essentially joining a
community. It's really, really similar to belonging to a church and
making an annual pledge. In fact, we pledge $100 month to our church to
keep the minister, keep the building going and do some community
outreach. It works out to the same idea.
That being said, I'm kind of grumpy about how much the dojo costs our
family. We ALSO have a full facility membership to the Y ($65/month for
the whole family) and then we've got two kids doing karate that each cost
$65/month plus testing fees and week-end intensive workshops, etc. My
husband joined the dojo to do arnis and we negotiated a family package so
he only costs and additional $20/month.
I think we're heading for a showdown: we have neither time, energy or
the emotional need for church, the Y AND the dojo.
Wendy, remembering to put the dojo summer picnic in her schedule
Robert Dorf
Well the answer is clear. You can pray anywhere.
Lee Michaels
"Robert Dorf" <rober...@japan.com> wrote in message
news:712sevg8i0al2b4ph...@4ax.com...
Ya mean like a limb sparing prayer??
Dear Lord, pleases see to it that nobody breaks any bones on my body today.
Robert Dorf
<leemichaels*nada-spam*@attbi.com> wrote:
>
>"Robert Dorf" <rober...@japan.com> wrote in message
>news:712sevg8i0al2b4ph...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:38:49 GMT, wmar...@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy
>> Marsden) wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> >
>> >I think we're heading for a showdown: we have neither time, energy or
>> >the emotional need for church, the Y AND the dojo.
>> >
<snip>
>>
>> Well the answer is clear. You can pray anywhere.
>
>Ya mean like a limb sparing prayer??
>
>Dear Lord, pleases see to it that nobody breaks any bones on my body today.
>
My favorite was always "Please God, just let me get through the murder
run without throwing up."
Top Sirloin
Assuming you go to church once a week, the Y probably 3-4 times and the dojo 3-4
times I'm gonna agree with Robert on this one.
The Christian relgion in the US is turning into nothing more than "our church is
bigger/better than yours" social club contest anyway.
Rant: Why are they allowed to build their giant Soul Marts in areas zoned for
residential use? They're charging fees, providing a service, destroying property
values and spiking traffic usage - put em' next to Target where they belong!
PS - Don't infer that I don't love Target.
--
Scott Johnson
"Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are
why they only open the top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen
Lee Michaels
"Top Sirloin" <scottj...@iamacrackho.kc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jrvrevgkuv2b7b0uf...@4ax.com...
Ya know Scott, you could be on to something.
Create big churches in malls. Set up concession stands. Automatic
deductions from your check account. Make it a real social club. Parties, a
full bar, rooms for rent for affairs, counseling, day care, etc., etc.
Perhaps a couple botiques offering "chruch fashions" would go well with
this.
Add fitness facilities and you will meet most families needsin one
convenient location. And when services are over, you could hit the mall and
go to the movies. Just remember to bring your credit cards and cash!!
I caan see it now!!
The Church Of Cash Our King
Reverends Scott and Reverend Lee will take your money this week.
Next week is a double header.
Reverend Lyle preachin' about E-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-vils Of Fa-a-a-a-a-a-at.
And The Kinky Reverend Dorf will give you a whole new meaning of sins of the
flesh in his innovative, breakthrough sermon, How to prepare and cook human
flesh 30 different ways.
The following week will be Reverend Nina who will preach on How to be a
Hollywood Bitch
Also Reverend Krista will preach on How to be a Tronna Bitch.
Check our marquee for our latest bookings of preachermen and preacherwomen
come to save your sould and offer you redemption for baragin prices!!
Amen brother!
Robert Dorf
<leemichaels*nada-spam*@attbi.com> wrote:
<snip>
>
>Ya know Scott, you could be on to something.
>
> Create big churches in malls. Set up concession stands. Automatic
>deductions from your check account. Make it a real social club. Parties, a
>full bar, rooms for rent for affairs, counseling, day care, etc., etc.
>
<snip>
As much as I appreciate your vision reverend, I must remind you that
parody is dead;
Lee Michaels
Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Maybe the Church of Satire??
Pierre Honeyman
> demand situation?
Generally martial arts classes are offered at whatever price the
instructor feels like charging. In many cases, I can't say most
because I don't know, the teaching of martial arts is non-profit.
In other cases the rates could be quite high because the school is
dedicated to turning out semi-professional or professional fighters,
or high level amateur competitors.
In this case, I don't know why the instructor's rates are so high. If
I had to guess, I'd say it's because he has 3 instructors that need to
get paid, very few students to generate that income with, and high
rent at the strip mall.
Or the 60 year old could be a "name" in Judo and he's able to charge a
premium because of this.
The number of people who pay for fitness memberships is probably an
order of magnitude, if not more than one, greater than the number of
people who attend a martial arts class.
If you're really interested in Judo, but don't want to pay $100/month,
you *should* be able to find it for much less than that. I know of at
least one school here in Vancouver that offers it for $25/month and
you can attend 4 or 5 classes/week (because that's what they offer).
I would suggest checking out YM/WCAs, community centers, community
colleges, local high schools, etc. Any of those places will probably
have Judo, and the rates will *probably* be significantly lower.
Pierre
Wendy Marsden
> Wendy Marsden wrote:
> >
> >You don't get just instruction at the dojo, you are essentially joining a
> >community. It's really, really similar to belonging to a church and
> >making an annual pledge.
> >
> >the emotional need for church, the Y AND the dojo.
>
Agreed. In fact, very little praying goes on in church, what with all the
singing and community announcements. But what really goes on is that you
make the world a more manageable place by hanging out with 100 like-minded
families who get to be your friends. (I highly recommend choosing friends
who are actively trying to be better people for at least an hour a week.)
The few friends I've made at the Y don't really translate to the
outside. We don't usually even give out last names there. But the
friends the family makes at church are sort of like an extended family of
NICE people (kinda like getting to pick your relatives) and the friends
made at the dojo are sort of like that, too.
Wendy
Note to Lysis: I don't attend a Christian church, being a jewess and
all. If you must know, it's one of those liberal over-educated "anything
you want to believe" churches.
Robert Dorf
Marsden) wrote:
>Robert Dorf (rober...@japan.com) wrote:
>> Wendy Marsden wrote:
>> >
>> >You don't get just instruction at the dojo, you are essentially joining a
>> >community. It's really, really similar to belonging to a church and
>> >making an annual pledge.
>> >
>> >I think we're heading for a showdown: we have neither time, energy or
>> >the emotional need for church, the Y AND the dojo.
>>
>> Well the answer is clear. You can pray anywhere.
>
>Agreed. In fact, very little praying goes on in church, what with all the
>singing and community announcements. But what really goes on is that you
>make the world a more manageable place by hanging out with 100 like-minded
>families who get to be your friends. (I highly recommend choosing friends
>who are actively trying to be better people for at least an hour a week.)
>
>The few friends I've made at the Y don't really translate to the
>outside. We don't usually even give out last names there. But the
>friends the family makes at church are sort of like an extended family of
>NICE people (kinda like getting to pick your relatives) and the friends
>made at the dojo are sort of like that, too.
>
Do you have a nearby JCC? Combine the Y and the church in one monthly
bill?
J. Thiessen
Dude. Think about it. They're not THAT stupid.
If you were driving up to church with the wife and kids some bleary-eyed
Sunday morning and you realized that you could either sit in a church pew
or wander aimlessly around Target, what would you choose?
And I hate shopping, unless it's geek stuff.
J.
Peter Rosa
> pros...@yahoo.com (Peter Rosa) wrote in message news:<41d2a06a.03061...@posting.google.com>...
> > So why in the world is Judo so vastly more expensive? Is it a supply-and
> > demand situation?
>
> Generally martial arts classes are offered at whatever price the
> instructor feels like charging. In many cases, I can't say most
> because I don't know, the teaching of martial arts is non-profit.
>
> In other cases the rates could be quite high because the school is
> dedicated to turning out semi-professional or professional fighters,
> or high level amateur competitors.
>
> In this case, I don't know why the instructor's rates are so high. If
> I had to guess, I'd say it's because he has 3 instructors that need to
> get paid, very few students to generate that income with, and high
> rent at the strip mall.
>
> Or the 60 year old could be a "name" in Judo and he's able to charge a
> premium because of this.
Thinking about it, the reason is probably a combination of these
factors. The school is so small in physical terms that I couldn't
imagine it could accommodate more than ten or so people per class, at
least with the adult classes. And the teacher seems quite qualified
and has long experience. High rent, that one I wouldn't think so, as
the small strip mall in which the school's located in rather dumpy -
though come to think of it nowhere on Long Island is truly cheap, and
the area's utility rates are the highest in the nation.
> The number of people who pay for fitness memberships is probably an
> order of magnitude, if not more than one, greater than the number of
> people who attend a martial arts class.
>
For sure. There often are more than 100 people at the gym when I'm
there, and I'm sure that's only a fraction of the total membership.
--
Peter Rosa
pros...@yahoo.com
Peter Rosa
> The few friends I've made at the Y don't really translate to the
> outside. We don't usually even give out last names there. But the
> friends the family makes at church are sort of like an extended family of
> NICE people (kinda like getting to pick your relatives) and the friends
> made at the dojo are sort of like that, too.
My gym experience has been pretty much the same. I've been going four
or five evenings a week since last September, and recognize many of
the other regulars, but I've hardly ever spoken to any, much less made
any friendships. While I'm not a particularly outgoing type, I'm not
abnormally withdrawn either. I'm also, at 45, older than most other
regulars, but I don't think that's it either. What seems to be the
case is that most other gym-goers: (1) come in groups and interact
solely with other members of these groups, or (2) come alone and
remain focused on their workouts to the exclusion of much interaction.
In short, the gym is much less of a "social" type of place than I
would have expected it to be.
--
Peter Rosa
pros...@yahoo.com
Seth Breidbart
Steve Freides <st...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>Lot's of YMCA's offer martials arts stuff but the quality is highly
>variable, at least that's what I've heard.
Quality is highly variable at storefront dojos, too.
Seth
--
Who cares? Shut up and lift. -- Watson (the pencil neck) Davis
Pierre Honeyman
> In article <3EED1BFF...@fridayscomputer.com>,
> Steve Freides <st...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
> >Lot's of YMCA's offer martials arts stuff but the quality is highly
> >variable, at least that's what I've heard.
>
> Quality is highly variable at storefront dojos, too.
99% of the time they should just hang the "golden nunchucks" out front
and be done with it.
Pierre
Wendy Marsden
> In article <3EED1BFF...@fridayscomputer.com>,
> Steve Freides <st...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
> >Lot's of YMCA's offer martials arts stuff but the quality is highly
> >variable, at least that's what I've heard.
>
> Quality is highly variable at storefront dojos, too.
I discussed this thread with my husband (who goes regularly to the
dojo) and he said that the dojo is better than the gym because at the dojo
he's working on personal goals and getting his body into better control
and shape through intense training, whereas I'm just doing daily
maintenance when I go to the gym.
It's just occured to me that he has no idea what I'm doing at the gym.
Wendy, wondering if she can bench press him yet
John M. Williams
>Seth Breidbart (se...@panix.com) wrote:
>> Steve Freides <st...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Lot's of YMCA's offer martials arts stuff but the quality is highly
>> >variable, at least that's what I've heard.
>>
>> Quality is highly variable at storefront dojos, too.
>
>I discussed this thread with my husband (who goes regularly to the
>dojo) and he said that the dojo is better than the gym because at the dojo
>he's working on personal goals and getting his body into better control
>and shape through intense training, whereas I'm just doing daily
>maintenance when I go to the gym.
>
>It's just occured to me that he has no idea what I'm doing at the gym.
He has obviously seen what the average "stay in shape" gym wanker does
every week, all year: the same weights and same number of reps to
"stay toned." It's what I see in the majority of gym-goers.
He has no idea what serious lifters do.
Lucas Buck
>Seth Breidbart (se...@panix.com) wrote:
>> In article <3EED1BFF...@fridayscomputer.com>,
>> Steve Freides <st...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Lot's of YMCA's offer martials arts stuff but the quality is highly
>> >variable, at least that's what I've heard.
>>
>> Quality is highly variable at storefront dojos, too.
>
>I discussed this thread with my husband (who goes regularly to the
>dojo) and he said that the dojo is better than the gym because at the dojo
>he's working on personal goals and getting his body into better control
>and shape through intense training,
In other words, he meets his girlfriend at the dojo
lysis
>He has obviously seen what the average "stay in shape" gym wanker does
>every week, all year: the same weights and same number of reps to
>"stay toned." It's what I see in the majority of gym-goers.
Whereas _you_, John Williams, just get fatter and fatter.
"Buddha belly" as your admirer Lyle McDonald puts it.
John HUDSON
"Serious lifters" form a very small part of the huge 'fitness
industry' and 'fitness culture' worldwide.
Your disparaging remarks about the activities of those 'ordinary
people' who form the vast bulk of gym clients, and others who make an
effort to 'keep in shape', is entirely without merit John - and
unworthy of you.
It smacks of elitism and a 'holier than thou' attitude, which perhaps
is misplaced. The opinions of that huge majority of "gym wankers",
about others who 'pump up' their bodies for vanity, would appear to be
much more relevant!
It's the "gym wankers" enthusiasm and spending power which enables the
fitness industry to provide the excellent facilities it does, to the
benefit perhaps of the 'elite' or "serious lifters"!!
"In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king."
lysis
John HUDSON <j...@linear.com> wrote:
>Your disparaging remarks about the activities of those 'ordinary
>people' who form the vast bulk of gym clients, and others who make an
>effort to 'keep in shape', is entirely without merit John - and
>unworthy of you.
Why, he, "Buddha belly" or no buddha belly, considers himself a "serious
lifter". His postmenopausal girfriend is so serious about lifting that she
took anabolic steroids to break the Texas state record: she squatted 38
kgs! I'd say he has every right to boast. And so does she.
John M. Williams
Actually the fitness industry is fueled by the "enthusiasm and
spending power" of those who buy memberships and never go to the gym,
and those who spend thousands of dollars on questionable supplements,
hoping for a magic potion. How dare I denigrate these bastions of the
fitness industry?!?! Three cheers for the gym wankers, eh, John?
John HUDSON
<jmwil...@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
Three cheers indeed John!! More room for you and me dear boy!
It's still very harsh to be so dismissive of them - they are people
too! ;o)
As a matter of interest, how many of your close family and friends
might fall into your "gym wankers" category? Many of mine probably do,
and I feel quite protective to hear you speak about this group of
people in such an unkind and thoughtless way.
Come on John, you're much better than that!
John M. Williams
>
>As a matter of interest, how many of your close family and friends
>might fall into your "gym wankers" category?
I have convinced many people to use their gym time more productively.
And the results, in some cases, have been quite noticeable.
John HUDSON
I do likewise with similarly heartening results. Much of those that
'err' do it in ignorance, and it is really up to us that know better
perhaps, to try and encourage and educate.
MFW is as good a place as any to try and do that, although some of our
'inmates' do their best to frighten off enquiring 'intruders' - which
is really quite sad! ;o(
circusgirl
> > Anyway, after I had finished talking with the Judo teacher, he told me
> > that the cost of taking classes is $100 per month, with the first
> > three months payable in advance. For that, an adult can take a
> > maximum of three classes per week.
>
> community. It's really, really similar to belonging to a church and
> making an annual pledge. In fact, we pledge $100 month to our church to
> keep the minister, keep the building going and do some community
> outreach. It works out to the same idea.
>
> That being said, I'm kind of grumpy about how much the dojo costs our
> family. We ALSO have a full facility membership to the Y ($65/month for
> the whole family) and then we've got two kids doing karate that each cost
> $65/month plus testing fees and week-end intensive workshops, etc. My
> husband joined the dojo to do arnis and we negotiated a family package so
> he only costs and additional $20/month.
>
> I think we're heading for a showdown: we have neither time, energy or
> the emotional need for church, the Y AND the dojo.
>
> Wendy, remembering to put the dojo summer picnic in her schedule
Hmm well you could view the outlay for the dojo and the Y as future
deductions from your health insurance for all those inactivity-related
disease neither you nor your family will suffer from in old age due to
good exercise habits....
...one of the ways I justify my sporting outlay.
I'm not a member of a church, but I do pony up cash every month for
various organisations whose work I support, so I can see why you want
to do that as well.
Donnla.
lysis
>I have convinced many people to use their gym time more productively.
How, John Williams? Have you talked them into using anabolic steroids?
You know, like nandrolone (an anabolic steroid)? Ring a bell, John
Williams?
Peter Rosa
> I discussed this thread with my husband (who goes regularly to the
> dojo) and he said that the dojo is better than the gym because at the dojo
> he's working on personal goals and getting his body into better control
> and shape through intense training, whereas I'm just doing daily
> maintenance when I go to the gym.
Sort of reminds me of a karate school which I pass every day on my way
to the train station. It looks like sort of a shoestring operation,
but has a sign in front listing the benefits of taking lessons. Some
of these are obvious, such as self-defense, conditioning and
coordination, but other alleged benefits are a bit New Age-y: goal
setting, motivation, self-confidence, time management, etc. There's
some others of the same type. I mean, talk about unrealistic
expectations ...
> It's just occured to me that he has no idea what I'm doing at the gym.
Why inform him that he's wrong. Next time he asks you what you did at
the gym, tell him "Well Honey, I did 100 reps on the thigh machine at
ten pounds resistance."
> Wendy, wondering if she can bench press him yet
Might be hard getting a grip.
--
Peter Rosa
pros...@yahoo.com
Lyle McDonald
>
> wmar...@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy Marsden) wrote in message news:<3eef...@nap.mtholyoke.edu>...
>
> > I discussed this thread with my husband (who goes regularly to the
> > dojo) and he said that the dojo is better than the gym because at the dojo
> > he's working on personal goals and getting his body into better control
> > and shape through intense training, whereas I'm just doing daily
> > maintenance when I go to the gym.
>
> Sort of reminds me of a karate school which I pass every day on my way
> to the train station. It looks like sort of a shoestring operation,
> but has a sign in front listing the benefits of taking lessons. Some
> of these are obvious, such as self-defense, conditioning and
> coordination, but other alleged benefits are a bit New Age-y: goal
> setting, motivation, self-confidence, time management, etc. There's
> some others of the same type. I mean, talk about unrealistic
> expectations ...
Yes, a good dojo should be able to teach you to go without food or
water, turn invisible, levitate, cloud other's minds, and catch bullets.
Oh yeah, and how to break boards for this inevitable times when you are
attacked...by boards.
Lyle
"Catching bullets with his teeth!" - ShoNuff
Kirk Roy
> Peter Rosa wrote:
>> wmar...@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy Marsden) wrote in message news:<3eef...@nap.mtholyoke.edu>...
>>
>> > I discussed this thread with my husband (who goes regularly to the
>> > dojo) and he said that the dojo is better than the gym because at the dojo
>> > he's working on personal goals and getting his body into better control
>> > and shape through intense training, whereas I'm just doing daily
>> > maintenance when I go to the gym.
>>
>> Sort of reminds me of a karate school which I pass every day on my way
>> to the train station. It looks like sort of a shoestring operation,
>> but has a sign in front listing the benefits of taking lessons. Some
>> of these are obvious, such as self-defense, conditioning and
>> coordination, but other alleged benefits are a bit New Age-y: goal
>> setting, motivation, self-confidence, time management, etc. There's
>> some others of the same type. I mean, talk about unrealistic
>> expectations ...
>
> Yes, a good dojo should be able to teach you to go without food or
> water, turn invisible, levitate, cloud other's minds, and catch bullets.
I took mind clouding as an elective in college. Or maybe it was my mind
that was clouded. Ah, either way I retained no more info from that class
than any other.
> Oh yeah, and how to break boards for this inevitable times when you are
> attacked...by boards.
When my wife was taking TKD they had them breaking the (pine) boards with
the boards held, er, sideways. In other words, they broke them with the
grain
Kirk
Lee Michaels
"Lyle McDonald" <lyl...@grandecomIMRETARDED.net> wrote in message
news:3EF0A0D7...@grandecomIMRETARDED.net...
was quite good at it and trained underneath a guy who could break stacks of
bricks. This went well for awhile until my hormones dictated a little
impromtu breaking demonstration. That was the one where I broke my hand. Put
a severe crimp in my breaking after that. (And the girl was totally
unimpressed.)
So in response to the witty remarks about getting attacked by boards, I will
say this. There is little record of unprovoked board attacks against humans.
But there is definite evidence of boards fighting back successfuly against
them. And hurting people when they do.
Lee Michaels
I know, I was there
<whimper, whimper,moan, groan>
Lyle McDonald
Back when I was going TKD (high school so like a billion years ago), I
remember coming across some sort of martial arts demo at the local mall,
by another TKD school.
They were *attempting* to put on a breaking demonstration.
using those plastic slide 'em back together 'boards' that, by
definition, are pre-crimped in the middle (and by even greater
definition, about as pussy as pussy gets). They should be even easier
to break than even a board going with the grain.
and these wankers couldn't even get it done. I watched the head
instructor try ineffectually to break them with a basic punch . After
several failed tries, he got pissed, backed up and side kicked it. It
was pretty pathetic.
Which is when I took a step forward, dissassociated my mouth movements
from my voice and stated for all to hear:
"Your martial arts are no good...heh heh heh...now you must fight...ME!"
then, the ass kicking.
Lyle
Lee Michaels
> >
> > When my wife was taking TKD they had them breaking the (pine) boards
with
> > the boards held, er, sideways. In other words, they broke them with the
> > grain
Breaking the pine boards with the grain is a good thing.
Breaking boards across the grain is q bad thing and can break bones.
This I know from painful experience.
David Cohen
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nada-spam*@attbi.com> wrote
> >
> In my youth, I used to break board, rocks, bricks, ice and cement
blocks. I
> was quite good at it and trained underneath a guy who could break
stacks of
> bricks. This went well for awhile until my hormones dictated a
little
> impromtu breaking demonstration. That was the one where I broke my
hand. Put
> a severe crimp in my breaking after that. (And the girl was totally
> unimpressed.)
Years ago, your Las Vegas alter ego was trying to impress his
girlfriend by demonstrating how fast he could draw his little .25 auto
from his waistband.
Shot half the tip of his penis off.
I was impressed. His girlfriend was not.
Girls suck.
Hopefully.
David
Ellis
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nada-spam*@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:qB2Ia.22084$Fa6.13407@sccrnsc02...
I was under the impression that boards were always broke with the grain.
Are there people here who claim to be able to break across the grain?
I'm pretty sure I remember reading a biog of Masutatsu Oyama, the founder of
Kyokushinkai karate, which said that he was one of the few people in the
world that could do this. When he wasn't fighting bulls.
Ellis
--
Discipline brings you freedom
Nina
I was at a party last year with my younger brother in an old apartment
in Chi-town. During the party, someone got stuck in the bathroom.
They didn't lock the door, but the doorjamb was warped and they had
shut the door so hard that it was simply stuck. Tools were gotten
out, doorknobs were undone, but to no avail. The door was simply
stuck. There was some talk about the guy climbing out the bathrom
window, but he was pretty intoxicated, so hanging on for dear life in
a third story walkup didn't seem like a good idea.
Then someone mentioned that "Jake knows kung-fu."
Everyone laughed a bit until Jake was approached. He was a bit tipsy
but said that he had broken boards before. We put him up to the test.
He told the guy in the bathroom to sit in the tub to protect himself.
The first time he hit the door, nothing. Everyone laughed. Jake sat
down and concentrated for a bit. Asked if the guy in the bathroom was
still in the tub. Guy replied yes. Jake hits the door with his foot.
BLAMMO! Door breaks! Guy is freed.
Sure, it was an old door, probably ready to burst anyway. But Jake
was the coolest guy at the party.
Cheers,
Nina
It's my only kung-fu story. Besides meeting David Carradine, but
that's not really kung-fu.
delicious! evil! calorie free!
http://www.theslack.com
Lee Michaels
"Nina" <ninaS...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:2ek1fv8963ktdd0qr...@4ax.com...
Jake, meet Mully.
Mully, meet Jake.
Lee Michaels
"Ellis" <ellis...@msn.comREMOVETHIS> wrote in message
news:LuGdnTg8P7t...@giganews.com...
It's pretty advanced stuff. Takes lots of training. But I fell in with a
bunch of guys right out of high school who did all kinds of breaking things.
Some of this stuff was unbelievable. I would never have known about this
stuff unless I saw it with my own eyeballs.
The folks who are really into breaking have welded stands to break their
material They were almost like alters. And they break the harder stuff. This
is becuse the can't afford to buy the normal breaking materials because of
the large quantities they would need.
Anyway I learned a lot and got banged up a bit. But I saw guys who routinely
broke short pieces of 2 X 4, punch through half inch plywood, break 20 lb
granite rocks, etc. They also had hands that would be immovable and almost
totally nonfunctional by the time they were fifty. But their feats were
amazing to watch.
gman
Depends on what you're trying to maintain...nothing wrong with lifting
for fitness...not everyone wants to lose their neck !!
Wendy Marsden
Lines: 14
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Nina (ninaS...@mindspring.com) wrote:
>
> Cheers,
> Nina
> It's my only kung-fu story. Besides meeting David Carradine, but
> that's not really kung-fu.
Oh, light dawns, you write for Lizzie Maguire? I *saw* that episode. I
thought it was way cool! (My kids didn't understand why.)
Note: I actually possess a middle-school aged daughter so it makes sorta
sense that I might see this program.
Wendy
John M. Williams
Most of those that I describe are simply going through the motions, in
the most literal sense. They are not accomplishing what they want,
and they seem clueless as to why.
If you want "fitness," you can take long hikes or run on a treadmill.
Nina
Marsden) wrote:
>Distribution:
>Lines: 14
>X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
>
>Nina (ninaS...@mindspring.com) wrote:
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Nina
>> It's my only kung-fu story. Besides meeting David Carradine, but
>> that's not really kung-fu.
>
>Oh, light dawns, you write for Lizzie Maguire? I *saw* that episode. I
>thought it was way cool! (My kids didn't understand why.)
Yeah, I actually wrote that episode. David came in full Kung-Fu
attire, barefoot. Which made a weird juxtoposition with the limo he
came in. Ah. Hollyweird.
>Note: I actually possess a middle-school aged daughter so it makes sorta
>sense that I might see this program.
You don't need to justify, I know plenty of people without
middle-school kids who watch. I was going to say it's a guilty
pleasure, but I don't want to thin kabout it that much. :)
Cheers,
Nina
Seth Breidbart
>> Oh yeah, and how to break boards for this inevitable times when you are
>> attacked...by boards.
>When my wife was taking TKD they had them breaking the (pine) boards with
>the boards held, er, sideways. In other words, they broke them with the
>grain
Did they also get the special boards (the ones that are about 4' long,
1' wide, but cut with the grain parallel to the _short_ edge)?
There actually is a valid reason for practicing breaking boards: your
opponent's head is about as hard as a 2-3" board, so if your fist is
capable of breaking a 3" board, it probably won't break if you
actually succeed in hitting someone in the head.
I still prefer friend-with-gun-behind-the-other-guy-fu.
Seth
--
There's no amount of rudeness in the world that can not be cured by the
judicious application of extreme violence. -- Roland Lee
Lucas Buck
"Boards... don't hit _back_." Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon
Lucas Buck
>
>"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nada-spam*@attbi.com> wrote
>> >
>> In my youth, I used to break board, rocks, bricks, ice and cement
>blocks. I
>> was quite good at it and trained underneath a guy who could break
>stacks of
>> bricks. This went well for awhile until my hormones dictated a
>little
>> impromtu breaking demonstration. That was the one where I broke my
>hand. Put
>> a severe crimp in my breaking after that. (And the girl was totally
>> unimpressed.)
>
>Years ago, your Las Vegas alter ego was trying to impress his
>girlfriend by demonstrating how fast he could draw his little .25 auto
>from his waistband.
>
>Shot half the tip of his penis off.
Was it a Kimber, by any chance?
circusgirl
There is a reason for this. Check out the design of any wood furniture
you have at home. You will see that it is built so that it supports
weight across the grain. THis is because wood is VERY strong across
the grain. Along the grain, there is potential for the wood to split
or break (for example, if you hammer a nail into a board in the wrong
place, it will generally split along the grain). Wood can be broken
more easily along the grain.
The aim of breaking stuff in tkd is generally to get the student to
focus on concentrating the kick or punch on a small target area - eg
using the edge of the foot instead of the entire sole, using the
correct 2 knuckles to punch instead of the whole hand etc. If the
board breaks, you have focussed your technique correctly. The other
reason is to teach students to aim to kick/punch "through" the target
- aiming to stop the technique a few inches behind. Again, if you aim
to stop AT the board, you probably won't break it.
Oh, and it looks cool. But it's a good way to focus on getting the
target area precise (although wood is expensive!). We used to do
targetting parctice with pads all the time.
Most martial arts aren't the greatest when it comes to self defence. I
do MA because they are fun and I enjoy them. No-one ever asks
volleyball players "and how does playing volleyball X hours a week
enhance your self defence abilities?". I am under no illusino that if
I want real SD classes, I can go find some sd-specific courses. Plus,
if I needed to spend 6 hours a week training to defend myself, I might
need to reevaluate the lifestyle choices that made that necessary....
I enjoy lifting weights because I just do. It's not just setting PRs
and wanting to compete, I enjoy the lifting experience for its own
sake. The PRs etc are the icing on a very tasty and succulent cake. I
like martial arts because they are fun and keep me aerobically fit. I
also am quite good friends with many of the other students in my MA
class. All in all, it's a fun, if rather tiring, way to spend several
hours a week, and good for my heart and lungs....
Donnla.
circusgirl
It's true that "gym wankers" are just not fully informed as how to
best use there gym time to achieve a higher level of fitness. I
started the long journey from couch potato to sports enthusiast in
1997, when I paid in advance for aerobics classes at a gym. I went to
classes every morning, 4 days a week, as I was fed up having no
energy, feeling like crap, and practically getting an asthma attack
whenever I climbed a few flights of stairs (at age 19!). Now, I have
more energy than I would ever have thought posible, (now 28), I love
working out, and I'm having a great time doing it. But I spent quite a
bit of time as "gym wanker".
Actually I was one of those "cardio queens", but minus the spandex and
trim figure. More the larger lady who aerobicsed like a madwoman but
never got any smaller (although that wasn't a priority at the time, I
was more interested in exercise helping me put the hours in on my
finals study).
Donnla.
gman
>
> Most of those that I describe are simply going through the motions, in
> the most literal sense. They are not accomplishing what they want,
> and they seem clueless as to why.
>
> If you want "fitness," you can take long hikes or run on a treadmill.
Is that a fair statement ? Do you know what they want...do you know
what their goals are ? Maybe they're their to pick up...who knows why
most people go to the gym...I would speculate that many go as a part
of a fitness routine...but what do I know...
lysis
gma...@canada.com (gman) wrote:
>Is that a fair statement ? Do you know what they want...do you know
Of course he does! John Williams knows everything and everyone needs to
comply with his opinion. He even has an opinion on when his neighbors
should have their garden flags changed. He gets very angry when people
don't agree with his opinion. For example he wanted to convict a real
hero, Jason Henthorne, for attempted murder when the guy defended his
helpless girlfriend and himself against a gang of drunk thugs. The jury
did have a different opinion, thank God.
Top Sirloin
That was the first thing I thought of too.
--
Scott Johnson
"Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are
why they only open the top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen
John HUDSON
I suspect your views on this comment concerning how and why 'ordinary'
people exercise, are more accurate and valid than those suggested by
John Williams.
There is a misplaced arrogance here from a few of the vain types that
think that anything other than 'pumping up' the body to impress, is a
complete waste of time. Thus in their breathtaking self-importance
they dismiss the vast majority who make efforts to get and keep fit ,
albeit perhaps sometimes in rather modest ways, as wasting their time
or "wankers" - and that really is a travesty!!
It is little wonder that there are rarely any 'new' regular
contributors here. It takes a thick skin to arrive here and stay for
any length of time!
And it won't be any time at all before there will the usual demand
for :
JPEGS JPEGS JPEGS JPEGS JPEGS JPEGS JPEGS!! ;o)
That really is all that spoils this otherwise informative and very
funny forum!
John M. Williams
> John M. Williams <jmwil...@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> >
> > Most of those that I describe are simply going through the motions, in
> > the most literal sense. They are not accomplishing what they want,
> > and they seem clueless as to why.
> >
> > If you want "fitness," you can take long hikes or run on a treadmill.
>
> Is that a fair statement ? Do you know what they want...do you know
> what their goals are ?
Uh, because they tell me they wish they could accomplish
what I have?
>Maybe they're their to pick up...who knows why
> most people go to the gym...I would speculate that many go as a part
> of a fitness routine...but what do I know...
The "average" gym member goes to the gym *maybe* a few times
per month, but more likely, a few times per year. Very few go
to the gym two or more times per week. That is how gym
equipment is funded; lots of money from memberships
with only a fraction of the wear-and-tear on the
equipment.
The 'average' gym member wants more than just fitness;
he/she wants strength and to look good. However, most
are not willing to devote the time and effort required.
Very few go to the gym strictly for "physical fitness,"
without regard to strength or looks, and most of them
spend their time on the cardio machines.
Believe what you want. Rationalize at will. But what is, is.
John M. Williams
> >>
> >> Most of those that I describe are simply going through the motions, in
> >> the most literal sense. They are not accomplishing what they want,
> >> and they seem clueless as to why.
> >>
> >> If you want "fitness," you can take long hikes or run on a treadmill.
> >
> >Is that a fair statement ? Do you know what they want...do you know
> >what their goals are ? Maybe they're their to pick up...who knows why
> >most people go to the gym...I would speculate that many go as a part
> >of a fitness routine...but what do I know...
>
> I suspect your views on this comment concerning how and why 'ordinary'
> people exercise, are more accurate and valid than those suggested by
> John Williams.
>
> There is a misplaced arrogance here from a few of the vain types that
> think that anything other than 'pumping up' the body to impress, is a
> complete waste of time. Thus in their breathtaking self-importance
> they dismiss the vast majority who make efforts to get and keep fit ,
> albeit perhaps sometimes in rather modest ways, as wasting their time
> or "wankers" - and that really is a travesty!!
Most of them buy memberships and never go to the gym. You
know that as well as I do.
> It is little wonder that there are rarely any 'new' regular
> contributors here. It takes a thick skin to arrive here and stay for
> any length of time!
>
> And it won't be any time at all before there will the usual demand
> for :
>
> JPEGS JPEGS JPEGS JPEGS JPEGS JPEGS JPEGS!! ;o)
>
> That really is all that spoils this otherwise informative and very
> funny forum!
You're getting whiny again, John Hudson.
John HUDSON
<jmwil...@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
"Whiny" John? "Again" John?
I would say I give as good as I get - and you will know I enjoy good
honest debate, without the necessity for personal acrimony - but that
too if necessary! ;o)
If "whiny" means I that I question the correctness or propriety of
some of the subject matter raised here, then I am quite unashamedly
"whiny"! If "again" means that I have a habit of doing just that, then
guilty there too.
I suspect I'm not alone, as it can take many years service here before
you are qualified to respond as a fully-fledged fitness pundit!
(That's not "whiny" John - that's good old English sarcasm <g>)
>
Seth Breidbart
I didn't know they made bodyparts.
Seth
--
Don't ever masturbate after getting capsaicin on your hands. -- Patrick Arnold
especially in that situation
gman
> "gman" <gma...@canada.com> wrote:
> The 'average' gym member wants more than just fitness;
> he/she wants strength and to look good. However, most
> are not willing to devote the time and effort required.
The comment was made..the same people doing the same thing day in and
day out...that doesn't suggest that they are no shows...
> Very few go to the gym strictly for "physical fitness,"
> without regard to strength or looks,
You know this how ? You have some independant research to back up this
assertion...is this your opinion or are you stating this as fact ?
> and most of them spend their time on the cardio machines.
This is bad why ? I would speculate that those who lift weights and do
cardio are trying to achieve fitness goals...I'd guess that vanity
also plays a part. The gym I go to has mostly regulars...and most do a
routine...do you perform different lifts in each workout ?
>
> Believe what you want. Rationalize at will. But what is, is.
I'm beginning to realize what is what...
John M. Williams
> "John M. Williams" <jmwil...@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>
> > Very few go to the gym strictly for "physical fitness,"
> > without regard to strength or looks,
>
> You know this how ? You have some independant research to back up this
> assertion...is this your opinion or are you stating this as fact ?
OK. *You* go to the gym to stare at the babes in the spandex.
Happy now?
> The gym I go to has mostly regulars...and most do a
> routine...do you perform different lifts in each workout ?
Progressive resistance. Ever heard of it? And you don't
change programs and cycle lifts?
Sorry if I caused a ripple in the deeply-embedded routine
of your gym life. Carry on.
--
John M. Williams jmwil...@enforcergraphics.f2s.com
------------ http://www.rustyiron.net --------------
------ Partnership for an Idiot-Free America -------
J. Thiessen
<ramble on>
I suspect that most of us started out as "gym wankers". Very few people
are lucky enough to have a friend/mentor who really knows his/her stuff
as far as weight training goes. In fact, a lot of people start off by
following someone who knows very little about training into the gym. I
know I did. We did a lot of screwing around and experienced very little
strength gain or hypertrophy.
I suppose if you were really well-educated about the human body and its
response to various sorts of stimulai (e.g. - muscle tissue trauma) and
nutritional plans (hi lyle), then perhaps you could make a decent stab
at setting up a program without the advice of those who've trained and
learned from success and mistakes, although your education is probably
at least in part derived for the experiences of such people.
I would guess that what bugs John Williams, and probably many other
regulars on the group is how often you see people doing the same old
ineffective (and frequently counterproductive) exercises in the gym,
and how resistant most of these people are to helpful advice.
There are definitely some principles in weight training that research
indicates provide results. (Increasing resistance, decent nutrition,
esp. enough protein; enough rest, hitting body parts often enough that
training-induced adaptation does not atrophy away, etc.) But there's
a wealth of misinformation out there on web sites, in muscle mags, and from
well-meaning friends and family. Sure, there're often useful bits of
information mixed in with the crap, but when you're a beginner, you have
no way of distinguishing one from the other, except by the long, slow,
and often disheartening process of trial and error. Most people aren't
prepared to make their bodies the subject of anything approaching a
scientific experiment. And it is sort of a downer to see different people
making the same mistakes over and over and over, especially when you've
been through them yourself. No one wants to be the know-it-all in the
gym. At least I don't. And it's a strange feeling to want to offer
a helpful tip to a stranger when you know that you'll probably be
rebuffed and make someone angry. It doesn't help that you know exactly
how that person feels. He or she can't usually tell if you know what
you're doing. To this person, you are just another busybody butting in
while he or she's working out. You may very well be contradicting what
a personal trainer told him/her (sacrilege!).
So it ends up easier to just ignore the multitudes of beginners, some
of whom are "gym wankers", and some of who will always be. If they want
advice or help, let 'em come ask. Learning is an individual process, and
no one else can do it for you.
But it gets tough not to be cynical when you hear friends or family members
talking enthusiastically about their latest "fitness program", especially
when it makes no more sense than the last dozen they tried and gave up on,
and particularly when you've been teaching yourself about fitness/strengh/
nutrition for years and have offered your help as politely as possible on
numerous occasions.
J. (a gym wanker for many years. now hopefully an ex-gym-wanker.)
gman
> "gman" <gma...@canada.com> wrote:
>
> Progressive resistance. Ever heard of it? And you don't
> change programs and cycle lifts?
>
bigger....I don't. I lift as part of a fitness routine...I only want
to maintain my current stature while losing some fat. I don't look
away if some hottie is working out in front of me but I would still go
to the gym if there weren't any girls around. I do pretty much the
same routine...I'll mix it up every now and again but not too much.
John M. Williams
> "John M. Williams" <jmwil...@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
> > "gman" <gma...@canada.com> wrote:
> >
> > Progressive resistance. Ever heard of it? And you don't
> > change programs and cycle lifts?
> >
> You made an assumption that I want to get stronger and / or
> bigger....I don't. I lift as part of a fitness routine...I only want
> to maintain my current stature while losing some fat.
How long have you been doing this? How long have you
been trying to lose that fat? How successful have you been?
John M. Williams
>
> I would guess that what bugs John Williams, and probably many other
> regulars on the group is how often you see people doing the same old
> ineffective (and frequently counterproductive) exercises in the gym,
> and how resistant most of these people are to helpful advice.
That's a pretty good summary.
> But it gets tough not to be cynical when you hear friends or family
members
> talking enthusiastically about their latest "fitness program", especially
> when it makes no more sense than the last dozen they tried and gave up on,
> and particularly when you've been teaching yourself about fitness/strengh/
> nutrition for years and have offered your help as politely as possible on
> numerous occasions.
Indeed.
rick++
to stay fit. We are talking about hours a week for decades of your life.
Lyle McDonald
> I suspect that most of us started out as "gym wankers".
yes, but most tend to forget those ugly formative years as they get to
more advanced levels. They forget that they were one the uninformed
retards wandering around the gym asking hte biggest guy there for (bad) advice.
> I suppose if you were really well-educated about the human body and its
> response to various sorts of stimulai (e.g. - muscle tissue trauma) and
> nutritional plans (hi lyle),
That came later. I started lifting in high school, with a friend, at a
local Nautilus type gym. I remember asking the biggest guy for advice
but I only remember one thing he ever told me which was to keep the
carved part of the weights facing inwards to 'keep the power inside the
bar'. I've rambled about my psychosis regarding this before.
> I would guess that what bugs John Williams, and probably many other
> regulars on the group is how often you see people doing the same old
> ineffective (and frequently counterproductive) exercises in the gym,
> and how resistant most of these people are to helpful advice.
Yes. I don't think it's so much the 'not knowing what they're doing'
part of it as the 'completely reisistant to try anything difference in
the face of zero results' part of it.
It's fundamentally the difference between ignorance and stupidity. You
can't really fault someone for not knowing something, they probably
don't even know what they don't know (yes, fine, you can go off on a
tear about 'do your own research' but considering how much of the
'advice' that's out there is total nonsense, how is someone who doesn't
know what they don't know supposed to sift through the bullshit). You
can't really fault them for their own ignorance, they simply don't know better.
But it turns into stupidity when they've been toiling away for 6 months
at the same thing with no results without it occuring to them that they
should try something (anything) else. To ignore advice from someone
else takes it a step further.
> There are definitely some principles in weight training that research
> indicates provide results. (Increasing resistance, decent nutrition,
> esp. enough protein; enough rest, hitting body parts often enough that
> training-induced adaptation does not atrophy away, etc.) But there's
> a wealth of misinformation out there on web sites, in muscle mags, and from
> well-meaning friends and family.
And I'd say that most of what's out there is misinformation, oft
repeated half (or non) truths, myths and misconceptions. How many women
fear heavy weights for fear of 'getting too big'? Most of them. How
many men think that they should mimic Arnold and the rest to get hyooge.
Most of them. On and on it goes.
> So it ends up easier to just ignore the multitudes of beginners, some
> of whom are "gym wankers", and some of who will always be. If they want
> advice or help, let 'em come ask. Learning is an individual process, and
> no one else can do it for you.
I agree 100%. I used to bother trying to help people, before realizing
it was a pointless effort on my part; most won't listen and will just
get defensive. If they ask, I'll help; otherwise...fuck 'em.
Lyle
gman
I've lost 20 pounds this year..since last August. I've been lifting on
and off for about 15 years...mostly on. I'm at a level where I'm
comfortable and want to maintain my current level. I always carried a
few extra pounds but was Dx'd as a diabetic this time last year so
decided it was time to lose the spare tire. I used to lift for
strength and looks but that was when I was in my 20's and had the
time....
Wendy Marsden
>
> I've lost 20 pounds this year..since last August. I've been lifting on
> and off for about 15 years...mostly on. I'm at a level where I'm
Do you find that you can stand still? I'm either moving forward or going
back. My body quickly becomes conditioned to a routine. You sound like
the guy who liked the elliptical trainer 'cuz it said he spent 450
calories and he didn't even think it was any effort to do. Guess what -
if it isn't any effort then it's not doing you much good!
> I always carried a
> few extra pounds but was Dx'd as a diabetic this time last year so
> decided it was time to lose the spare tire. I used to lift for
> strength and looks but that was when I was in my 20's and had the
> time....
How about lifting to build muscle to increase your metabolic rate so you
burn more fat? Getting stronger is a nice side benefit.
I think it's really important to go to the gym with a plan in mind, and
the plan usually comes from some goal. I'm currently working on two
training goals: trying to squat my body weight and do an unassisted
chin-up. I have quite a ways to go on both of those goals but it's nice
to see progress. My true purpose is to burn my excess body fat, and
having a focus in the gym helps me to do that.
Wendy, who's lost 40+ pounds of fat since September
J. Thiessen
> "J. Thiessen" wrote:
>
>> I suspect that most of us started out as "gym wankers".
>
> yes, but most tend to forget those ugly formative years as they get to
> more advanced levels. They forget that they were one the uninformed
> retards wandering around the gym asking hte biggest guy there for (bad) advice.
Heh. It's sort of painful to remember. I used to do smith machine
power curtseys. I used to do seated calf raises with huge weights and
enormous bouncing. I used to stop my bench press ~4 inches from my chest.
I probably did nearly every typical stupid thing you can do.
<snip>
> And I'd say that most of what's out there is misinformation, oft
> repeated half (or non) truths, myths and misconceptions. How many women
> fear heavy weights for fear of 'getting too big'? Most of them. How
> many men think that they should mimic Arnold and the rest to get hyooge.
> Most of them. On and on it goes.
The real suck factor of it is that misinformation often makes more money.
As long as it's more profitable to sell people on endless slight variations
in sports drinks, diet pills, rubber-band weight machines, foo-foo exercise
workout tapes, and BS "build bicep peaks in 6 weeks" muscle-mag routines
than to try and educate them about stuff like nutrition, rest, and basic
resistance progression, the situation will never change.
People buy hope. People buy stuff that makes them feel good about
themselves, that promises them what they want to hear. All those Bowflex
6-week before-and-afters are just about perfect. No one wants to buy
long-term-dedication and consistency, diet and lifestyle change.
"15 minutes a day and I'll lose this beer gut."
I was in the gym today and got to listen to this PT who I've seen
repeatedly give piss-poor advice, ignore horrible form problems, and
in general sort of yank his trainees around the gym in a bored manner.
He had some college-age woman in there, and it must have been her first
time, because he spent loads of time buttering her up, telling her
how good she looked already, just how awesome she was going to look
after she'd been working with him awhile, and how much she was going to
love working out with him. He followed her down the aisle as she did walking
lunges and kept up a steady stream of sweet-talk, doing his best to set the
hook so that she would come back, and I have no doubt he was successful.
He gets away with his shitty PT-ing because _he_ looks good, and because he
knows how to tell his trainees what they want to hear.
It's a real bitch that PTs can be sources of such crappy advice. When
you're some poor dumb schmoe and you sign up at the gym, how are you
supposed to guess that you _shouldn't_ listen to someone officially
promoted by the gym as being knowledgeable? If anyone's advice looks like
it ought to carry the official stamp of approval, it's these people.
J.
Lyle McDonald
> He gets away with his shitty PT-ing because _he_ looks good, and because he
> knows how to tell his trainees what they want to hear.\
I would say that most successful (financially) trainers are the ones who
are the best salespeople. They know how to pander to their clients, keep
them happy, and that's it. In terms of actual training ability, they
typically know jack shit: they probably know how to train themselves and
that's it.
Lyle
PCTECH
whacked, but what the hell) and say that not all PTs are idiots.
I spent a year in the only gym in town (at that time) and quite frankly
wasted my time and money. When a new gym opened up I went along and was
amazed at the setup. I signed up and in 6 weeks the difference was amazing.
I have signed up for a PT because I didn't think that the 2 free assessments
a year were going to keep the improvements happening.. Also, my knowledge in
this field is limited and I want to learn and who better than from a
professional.
My PT doesn't tell me what I want to hear, believe me. I hate cardio
workouts with a passion and I enjoy lifting. I'm now doing 20 to 40 minutes
cardio a day (I train 4 days a week), she's also dropped the weight and
increased my reps for my lifting sessions. If I was impressed with the first
six weeks (without a PT), man I cannot believe the improvement in 10 days.
OK, it's not such a visible thing yet, but I can feel the difference. On
the other hand, perhaps it's all in my mind.
I confess to being a "gym-wanker", I'd like to learn more so that I can do
without a PT. I do know I wasted a whole year ... but at least I KNOW that
now.
Ok, I'll get back to lurking...
Tracey
"Lyle McDonald" <lyl...@grandecomIMRETARDED.net> wrote in message
news:3EF49E47...@grandecomIMRETARDED.net...
Lyle McDonald
>
> As a newbie/lurker I'm going to stick my head out (and probably get it
> whacked, but what the hell) and say that not all PTs are idiots.
Yes, hence my use of the word 'most'.
Most is not synonymous with all the last time I looked.
> My PT doesn't tell me what I want to hear, believe me. I hate cardio
> workouts with a passion and I enjoy lifting. I'm now doing 20 to 40 minutes
> cardio a day (I train 4 days a week), she's also dropped the weight and
> increased my reps for my lifting sessions. If I was impressed with the first
> six weeks (without a PT), man I cannot believe the improvement in 10 days.
> OK, it's not such a visible thing yet, but I can feel the difference.
What exactly do you 'feel'? A burn, a pump, what?
Lyle
PCTECH
man, I feel good!
Trace
"Lyle McDonald" <lyl...@grandecomIMRETARDED.net> wrote in message
news:3EF5D0D2...@grandecomIMRETARDED.net...
Lyle McDonald
>
> What do I feel? Thinner, fitter, more alive. Not objective, I know. Hell,
> man, I feel good!
in 10 days?
Umm, ok.
Lyle
PCTECH
14 days ago. 4 sessions for assessments, working out my program and making
sure I knew what to do and how to do it. I've been on my own for 10 days,
following the program. I will see her again at the end of July for a
follow-up. She also said to stop her and talk if I have problems, questions
etc. I"m quite impressed, but then again, I'm new to this.
Trace
"Lyle McDonald" <lyl...@grandecomIMRETARDED.net> wrote in message
Seth Breidbart
J. Thiessen <thie...@ASDFsonic.net> wrote:
>I probably did nearly every typical stupid thing you can do.
Here's a couple you probably missed (that I've seen recently):
Using the lying leg curl machine while reading a book.
Putting spring collars on the bar on the Sm*th Machine.
>The real suck factor of it is that misinformation often makes more money.
Especially stuff that makes people "feel stronger".
There seems to be a big market for things that let people write big
numbers in workout notebooks.
Oh, another silly thing: somebody's workout log recording dumbbell
exercises at the weight of both.
Seth
--
Who cares? Shut up and lift. -- Watson (the pencil neck) Davis
Seth Breidbart
Lyle McDonald <lyl...@grandecomIMRETARDED.net> wrote:
>I would say that most successful (financially) trainers are the ones who
>are the best salespeople. They know how to pander to their clients, keep
>them happy, and that's it. In terms of actual training ability, they
>typically know jack shit: they probably know how to train themselves and
>that's it.
I bet most don't even know that. They picked their parents properly
so they look good.
J. Thiessen
> In article <slrnbf6pr6....@dragonfly.sonic.net>,
> J. Thiessen <thie...@ASDFsonic.net> wrote:
>
>>I probably did nearly every typical stupid thing you can do.
>
> Here's a couple you probably missed (that I've seen recently):
>
> Using the lying leg curl machine while reading a book.
Ouch.
> Putting spring collars on the bar on the Sm*th Machine.
Oh dear.
I see even PTs here doing lateral raises with their elbows bent >=90
degrees. And one of them started howling and grunting today as he did
an upright bench press machine.
I gotta get my own weight set.
>>The real suck factor of it is that misinformation often makes more money.
>
> Especially stuff that makes people "feel stronger".
"Look at that PUMP!" "Feel the BURN!"
> There seems to be a big market for things that let people write big
> numbers in workout notebooks.
What's depressing is when you see one that records 6 months of
identical weight and rep range workouts.
Lee Michaels
"Seth Breidbart" <se...@panix.com> wrote
>
> Oh, another silly thing: somebody's workout log recording dumbbell
> exercises at the weight of both.
>
What?!?!?!? They didn't add an air resistance factor??
Seth Breidbart
Lyle McDonald <lyl...@grandecomIMRETARDED.net> wrote:
>I agree 100%. I used to bother trying to help people, before realizing
>it was a pointless effort on my part; most won't listen and will just
>get defensive. If they ask, I'll help; otherwise...fuck 'em.
Isn't that why you offered the help in the first place?
Seth
--
This is mfw, nobody wants to raise the quality of the
discourse. -- Lyle McDonald
Lyle McDonald
I always track altitude when I change gyms, slightly different
gravitational constant doncha know.
Lyle
circusgirl
>
> Very few go to the gym strictly for "physical fitness,"
> spend their time on the cardio machines.
My husband calls the cardio machines the "hamster machines". I agree,
treadmill is boring as hell, but, it works for cutting body fat....
Donnla.
gps
So do many other things.
ps