The Marine Corps and Psychotherapy
kaloalex
Tell you what; I've had it with whiners. Further, if I hear the phrase
"self-esteem" again, I'm going to kill something. It'll happen. Just
wait. Some New Age psycho therapeutically babbling little parsnip is
going to gurgle to me about how arduous his life is, when he probably
doesn't have a life to begin with, and about how it's somebody else's
fault, probably mine, and his self-esteem is all bruised and rancid and
has warts on it. And I'm going to stuff him into a concrete mixer. No,
wait. I've got a better idea. I'll pack him off instead to Marine Corps
boot camp at Parris Island, in the festering mosquito swamps of South
Carolina.
I spent a summer there long ago, in a philosophy battalion. All
battalions at PI are philosophy battalions. The chief philosopher was
named Sergeant Cobb, and he was rough as one. His philosophy was that at
oh-dark-thirty we should leap up like spring-loaded jackrabbits when he
threw the lid of a GI can down the squad bay. Then, he figured we should
spend the day at a dead run, except when we were learning such socially
useful behavior as shooting someone at five hundred yards. He didn't
care whether we wanted to do these things. He didn't care whether we
could do them. We were going to do them. And we did. The drill
instructors had a sideline in therapy. They did attitude adjustment. If
the urge to whine overcame any of us, Sergeant Cobb took his attitude
tool -- it was a size-twelve boot on the end of his right leg -- and
made the necessary adjustments. It was wonderful therapy. It put us in
touch with our feelings. We felt like not whining any more. I kid about
it, but it really was philosophy. We learned that there are things you
have to do. We learned that we could generally do them. We also learned,
if we didn't already know, that whimpering is humiliating.
The Marine view of life, which if widely applied, would eradicate
American politics in about three seconds, was simple: Solve your
problems, live with them, or have the grace to shut up about them. Can
you imagine what this would do to the talk-show racket? Fat housewife to
Oprah: "My...I just can't...being so...heavy hurts my self-esteem."
Oprah: "So stop sniveling and eat less. Next." The Corps believed in
personal responsibility. If your life had turned into a landfill, it
might be somebody else's fault. Maybe existence had dropped the green
weenie on your plate. It happens. But the odds were that you had
contributed to your own problems. Anyway, everybody gets a raw deal
sometime. Life isn't a honeymoon in the Catskills. Deal with it. I
remember a coffee mug in an armored company's day room: "To err is
human, to forgive, divine. Neither of which is Marine Corps policy."
There's something to be said for it. Nowadays everybody's a
self-absorbed victim, and self-respect and strength of character have
become symptoms of emotional insufficiency. Oh, alas, a lack, sniffle,
seek, squeak, the world's picking on me because I'm black, brown,
ethnic, fat, female, funny-looking, dysfunctional, data functional,
don't use deodorant, or can't get dates. And sensitive? Dear God. If
people suffer the tiniest slight, they call for a support group and
three lawyers. (Support groups.) When I'm dictator, we'll use 'em for
bowling pins. Whatever happened to grown-ups? It's incredible the things
people whine about. Go to the self-pity section of your bookstore. It's
usually called "Self Help." You'll find books called things like, "The
Agony of Hangnails: A Survivor's Guide." They will explain coping
strategies, and assure you that you are still a good person, shredding
digits and all. Other books will tell you that because you had an
unhappy childhood (who didn't?) you are now an abused, pallid, squashed
little larva, and no end pathetic. Other books will tell you how not to
be toxic to your Inner Child. I'm writing a book now: "Dropping Your
Inner Child Down A Well." We'd be better off if most people's inner
children were orphans.
I once sat in on somebody else's group-therapy session, which was
concerned about the morbid condition of the patients' self-esteem. I
didn't understand the rules of therapy, and said approximately, "Look,
maybe if you folks stopped feeling sorry for yourselves and got a life,
things might be better." I thought I was contributing an insight, but it
turned out to be the wrong answer. The therapist, an earnest lady -- all
therapists seem to be earnest ladies -- told me firmly, and with much
disappointment in me, that this was No Laughing Matter. The patients'
self-esteems were undergoing cardiopulmonary resuscitation, and I was
suggesting that they get a life instead of picking at their psychic
scabs. She reckoned I was pretty terrible. Stuff' em into a concrete
mixer, I say.
Fred Reed
Lee Michaels
"kaloalex" <kaloal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:73268092a85e9309...@news.teranews.com...
I generally agree, 'cept that part about the hangnails. ;)
DRS
qnznb.39694$ao4.84404@attbi_s51
> "kaloalex" <kaloal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:73268092a85e9309...@news.teranews.com...
>>
>> Tell you what; I've had it with whiners. Further, if I hear the
>> phrase "self-esteem" again, I'm going to kill something. It'll
>> happen. Just wait. Some New Age psycho therapeutically babbling
>> little parsnip is going to gurgle to me about how arduous his life
>> is, when he probably doesn't have a life to begin with, and about
>> how it's somebody else's fault, probably mine, and his self-esteem
>> is all bruised and rancid and has warts on it. And I'm going to
>> stuff him into a concrete mixer. No, wait. I've got a better idea.
>> I'll pack him off instead to Marine Corps boot camp at Parris
>> Island, in the festering mosquito swamps of South Carolina.
[...]
> I generally agree, 'cept that part about the hangnails. ;)
Marines are generally just masochists themselves anyway. Of course they
don't care about self-esteem - they get their kicks being abused.
--
"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like
shitting in your pants because that's where your asshole happened to be."
Andreas Prilop
kaloalex
> Marines are generally just masochists themselves anyway.
Nah. We're sadists, too.
Of course they
> don't care about self-esteem - they get their kicks being abused.
Don't knock it till you've tried it. Big fun with leather.
Richard Bray
What's really cool is, some vegans shared the guy's wife on an
Internet web-cam special, and he got over it just fine!
DRS
There's a lot of Marines in the leather world - as bottoms.
T.R.H
Rules to live by AFAIC
There isn't a phrase I hate more than that fucking "self esteem"
We need mandatory military service in this country, say 1 year minimum,
perhaps 2. To many kids wandering around with their thumbs up their
asses & no direction in life.
my .02(C$)
DRS
[...]
> We need mandatory military service in this country, say 1 year
> minimum, perhaps 2. To many kids wandering around with their thumbs
> up their asses & no direction in life.
Coercing impressionable teenagers into an abusive, brutalising environment
like the military is madness. You don't give people a "direction in life"
by treating them like shit. Not only are most people not cut out for
military life but it's profoundly bad for the military as well.
AlphaOmega
"DRS" <d...@OmegaZero2003sucksdonkeydicks.ihug.com.au> wrote in message
news:bnmgse$pi8$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> T.R.H <sp...@spam.spam> wrote in message hCznb.64165$zx2.59050@edtnps84
>
> [...]
>
> > We need mandatory military service in this country, say 1 year
> > minimum, perhaps 2. To many kids wandering around with their thumbs
> > up their asses & no direction in life.
>
> Coercing impressionable teenagers into an abusive, brutalising environment
> like the military is madness. You don't give people a "direction in life"
> by treating them like shit. Not only are most people not cut out for
> military life but it's profoundly bad for the military as well.
You are, sadly, an idiot.
Robert Schuh
Hey Fred,
Take your far right pussy bullshit and shove it up your ass. What the
FUCK does this have to do with fitness, weights etc.? Go grab your side
arm and swallow a bullet. The world will be a FAR better place.
Robert Schuh
Your 2 cents is worth nothing. Why is it that every anonymous pussy on
the Internet thinks they are some kind of tough guy? What you need is to
be educated. You have the English skills of a 2nd grader. Take a nap in
the garage tonight with your car running.
Proton Soup
> "self-esteem" again, I'm going to kill something. It'll happen. Just
> wait. Some New Age psycho therapeutically babbling little parsnip is
> going to gurgle to me about how arduous his life is, when he probably
> doesn't have a life to begin with, and about how it's somebody else's
> fault, probably mine, and his self-esteem is all bruised and rancid and
> has warts on it. And I'm going to stuff him into a concrete mixer. No,
> wait. I've got a better idea. I'll pack him off instead to Marine Corps
> boot camp at Parris Island, in the festering mosquito swamps of South
> Carolina.
My dad was there. And never, not even once, did he suggest I join.
Proton Soup
Beach
Robert Schuh wrote:
> kaloalex wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Tell you what; I've had it with whiners. Further, if I hear the phrase
> > "self-esteem" again, I'm going to kill something. It'll happen. Just
> > wait. Some New Age psycho therapeutically babbling little parsnip is
> > going to gurgle to me about how arduous his life is, when he probably
> > doesn't have a life to begin with, and about how it's somebody else's
> > fault, probably mine, and his self-esteem is all bruised and rancid and
> > has warts on it. And I'm going to stuff him into a concrete mixer. No,
> > wait. I've got a better idea. I'll pack him off instead to Marine Corps
> > boot camp at Parris Island, in the festering mosquito swamps of South
> > Carolina.
> >
Just a comment. The most effective military in history, for it's size is the
Israeli military. How does it survive with several million people versus
over a billion Arabs? The IDF doesn't adabt any of those antiquated
ideas, they say we're glad to have you. If not you, who? Officers are
called by first names.
Our military wins by technology, science, and intelligence. The Marines
have their place, and for some it serves it's purpose. Other's have enough
intelligence to do other things with their lives. Or don't need to be abused.
When Dessert Storm was run, most of the best military operations were
by Grumman and Raytheon middle aged engineers. That's why they only
lost 11 people. The best public picture were JSTARs showing "The Mother
of All Retreats".
What you should be concerned about are not a lot of Marine types, what you
should be concerned with is that China is developing the high ground while the
US is outsourcing our high technology.
I'm sure you'll flame me for this.
gps
<snip>
> Fred Reed
Bravo. I remember you, I think. Did you used to just use Kalo or
something like that as your screen name?
gps
>
> Lee Michaels <leemichaels*nada-spam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
> qnznb.39694$ao4.84404@attbi_s51
> > "kaloalex" <kaloal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:73268092a85e9309...@news.teranews.com...
> >>
> >> Tell you what; I've had it with whiners. Further, if I hear the
> >> phrase "self-esteem" again, I'm going to kill something. It'll
> >> happen. Just wait. Some New Age psycho therapeutically babbling
> >> little parsnip is going to gurgle to me about how arduous his life
> >> is, when he probably doesn't have a life to begin with, and about
> >> how it's somebody else's fault, probably mine, and his self-esteem
> >> is all bruised and rancid and has warts on it. And I'm going to
> >> stuff him into a concrete mixer. No, wait. I've got a better idea.
> >> I'll pack him off instead to Marine Corps boot camp at Parris
> >> Island, in the festering mosquito swamps of South Carolina.
>
> [...]
>
> > I generally agree, 'cept that part about the hangnails. ;)
>
> Marines are generally just masochists themselves anyway. Of course they
> don't care about self-esteem - they get their kicks being abused.
Dude, we abuse others; hth.
ps
gps
>
> T.R.H <sp...@spam.spam> wrote in message hCznb.64165$zx2.59050@edtnps84
>
> [...]
>
> > We need mandatory military service in this country, say 1 year
> > minimum, perhaps 2. To many kids wandering around with their thumbs
> > up their asses & no direction in life.
>
> Coercing impressionable teenagers into an abusive, brutalising environment
> like the military is madness. You don't give people a "direction in life"
> by treating them like shit. Not only are most people not cut out for
> military life but it's profoundly bad for the military as well.
And what is your experience in the military?
ps
gps
>
> T.R.H wrote:
<snip>
> > We need mandatory military service in this country, say 1 year minimum,
> > perhaps 2. To many kids wandering around with their thumbs up their
> > asses & no direction in life.
> >
> > my .02(C$)
> >
> >
>
> Your 2 cents is worth nothing. Why is it that every anonymous pussy on
> the Internet thinks they are some kind of tough guy? What you need is to
> be educated. You have the English skills of a 2nd grader. Take a nap in
> the garage tonight with your car running.
Now that is classic Schuh. Very nice, Rob.
ps
gps
>
> kaloalex wrote:
> > Fred Reed
> >
>
> Hey Fred,
> Take your far right pussy bullshit and shove it up your ass. What the
> FUCK does this have to do with fitness, weights etc.?
While you've been gone mfw has developed a decided interest in the
miscellaneous.
ps
AlphaOmega
"gps" <gst...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3F9EEF01...@ix.netcom.com...
He once played a marine in his 9th grade Reality Show last year.
> ps
gps
>
> Robert Schuh wrote:
>
> > kaloalex wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tell you what; I've had it with whiners. Further, if I hear the phrase
> > > "self-esteem" again, I'm going to kill something. It'll happen. Just
> > > wait. Some New Age psycho therapeutically babbling little parsnip is
> > > going to gurgle to me about how arduous his life is, when he probably
> > > doesn't have a life to begin with, and about how it's somebody else's
> > > fault, probably mine, and his self-esteem is all bruised and rancid and
> > > has warts on it. And I'm going to stuff him into a concrete mixer. No,
> > > wait. I've got a better idea. I'll pack him off instead to Marine Corps
> > > boot camp at Parris Island, in the festering mosquito swamps of South
> > > Carolina.
> > >
>
> Just a comment. The most effective military in history, for it's size is the
> Israeli military. How does it survive with several million people versus
> over a billion Arabs?
It survives thanks to the backing of the USA military industrial
complex.
> The IDF doesn't adabt any of those antiquated
> ideas, they say we're glad to have you. If not you, who? Officers are
> called by first names.
What antiquated ideas?
> Our military wins by technology, science, and intelligence. The Marines
> have their place, and for some it serves it's purpose. Other's have enough
> intelligence to do other things with their lives. Or don't need to be abused.
And you have what first hand experience with the Marine Corps? Try
reading some history of the USMC and see if you still think they, on the
whole, lack intelligence or thrive on abuse.
ps
DRS
[...]
> And you have what first hand experience with the Marine Corps? Try
> reading some history of the USMC and see if you still think they, on
> the whole, lack intelligence or thrive on abuse.
Your patriotism is commendable but little else. If ever I need someone to
charge up a hill or storm a beach the USMC would be top of my list. But
they have never been known, in military circles or otherwise, for
intelligence, innovation or flexibility.
DRS
[...]
> Just a comment. The most effective military in history, for it's size
> is the Israeli military.
I'd be more cautious about declaring them the best in history. Just to pick
one of many possible examples, the Finns did a mighty job in WWII of holding
off the Soviets. I wouldn't seriously attempt to say whether they were
better or not than the Israelis, merely to point out the danger of such
hyperbole.
[...]
> Our military wins by technology, science, and intelligence.
And logistics. The US military has far and away the best logistics in the
world. OTOH, it is over-reliant on technology. Witness the recent
engagements in Afghanistan. Time and again the air force bombed the crap
out of some part of the countryside and the inteligence people pronounced
the area cleared of Taliban fighters. The Australian SAS patrols went in
and next thing you know they were in fire fights with the non-existent
Taliban, thus proving that even today there is no substitute for men on the
ground getting up close and personal. Th US wants to do everything from a
distance, which is not always possible or even desirable.
kaloalex
Guilty as charged. I have two hands now (severed tendon) and a few
hours of leisure computer time a week.
kaloalex
>> Fred Reed
>>
>
> Hey Fred,
> Take your far right pussy bullshit and shove it up your ass. What the
> FUCK does this have to do with fitness, weights etc.? Go grab your side
> arm and swallow a bullet. The world will be a FAR better place.
>
Fred wrote this, but he didn't post it here. Kalo did. File it under
the heading of misc.
gps
>
> gps <gst...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> 3F9EF3FC...@ix.netcom.com
>
> [...]
>
> > And you have what first hand experience with the Marine Corps? Try
> > reading some history of the USMC and see if you still think they, on
> > the whole, lack intelligence or thrive on abuse.
>
> Your patriotism is commendable but little else.
It has nothing to do with patriotism.
> If ever I need someone to
> charge up a hill or storm a beach the USMC would be top of my list.
Naturally.
> But they have never been known, in military circles or otherwise, for
> intelligence, innovation or flexibility.
Never been known to you perhaps, but your ignorance does not make it
so. The USMC pioneered amphibious assaults in the 20th century, which
was a primary reason the allies were successful in the pacific campaign
during ww 2. They developed the strategy, the doctrine, and the tools
necessary to perform it successfully. A fine example of innovation if
ever there was one. BTW, another crucial element of success in ww 2 was
naval aviation, something the Marines had a bit of a hand in innovating
being part of the naval services.
They were also instrumental in developing close air support,
implementing a pilot on the ground to direct air strikes. Just ask the
US Army how effective it was in Korea while the army was getting their
asses chewed up as the US air forces were busy doing "strategic" bombing
runs miles away from the infantry and other ground forces.
They were the first service to use helicopters for moving troops into
battle during Korea as well.
As to the intelligence of those who comprise/d the USMC, you might check
out the struggles politically the Marines have had to go through to
maintain themselves as a separate branch of service. There are many
very intelligent officers who were savvy enough to seek out, garner, and
maintain the political support necessary to hold off the army lobby who
would have taken the duties of the Marine Corps for themselves if they
could. General Victor Krulak wrote a fine book which addresses this as
well as many other areas of Marine Corps history called "First to
Fight."
The rank and file are, naturally, a microcosm of the society from which
they come, as any military unit is. They are neither significantly more
or less intelligent than any other segment of that society.
Flexibility? I don't know how much more flexible a service can be than
one which has the capacity to attack from the sea, on the land and in
the air. Being forward deployed at all times gives the Marines
considerable flexibility to respond to situations requiring immediate
reaction.
The MEU SOC is an air/ground task force capable of bringing an
absolutely dreadful amount of fire power to bear, or of performing
humanitarian relief tasks. I'd say that is rather flexible.
ps
gps
Cool. Good to see you back.
ps
R.Coyote
we could do them. We were going to do them. And we did."
Isn't it sad we need someone else to instill this within us?
Western society has lost the values and traditions of mental toughness and
steely discipline that can and is provided in spades in the various armed
forces (some more than others) Character does not blossom, it is forged,
self indulgence, morbid self fascination, instant gratification is the new
religion.
That said, I have seem many abusers come from a military background, for all
that it offers, it appears, at least for my VERY IGNORANT perspective, to
lack a code of chivalry and honor, a respect for all things, a humility , a
gratitude for life, a sensitivity.
Like a Knights Templar, Samurai or Bushido code.
It seems (to me) to be geared toward its first and most important utility,
to create case hardened killing robots, and nothing more.
We are all weak, we are all fearful, we can all be killed, we all die, we
are not important, we are not special (sorry egotists), life is short,
violence is natural and necessary but ugly, If you fall down on the trail
in the forest, and you don't get up, the Tiger eats you, because nature is
fair, it is how we deal with who what we are that matters.
A morning prayer:
I don't know shit
I don't know shit
I don't know shit
I am nothing and no one
Thank you for my life
Thank you for everything
I am truly grateful
I am truly grateful
By grace of the Great Spirit in all things
I go to be the best I can be
And work to make the world a better place
In my humble way
So let it be
Steve The Geek
> > minimum, perhaps 2. To many kids wandering around with their thumbs
> > up their asses & no direction in life.
>
> Coercing impressionable teenagers into an abusive, brutalising environment
> like the military is madness.
Like high school?
Steve the ( ... ) Geek
Beach
gps wrote:
> Beach, Run...@nospam.com wrote:
> >
> > Robert Schuh wrote:
> >
> > > kaloalex wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > Just a comment. The most effective military in history, for it's size is the
> > Israeli military. How does it survive with several million people versus
> > over a billion Arabs?
>
> It survives thanks to the backing of the USA military industrial
> complex.
>
How about 1948? No US help at all. Attacked by 5 nations, outnumbered
outgunned. 5 Nations attacked Israel, and they had all the left over British
military technology and Soviet technology. The only tanks the Israelis had
were Italian very inferior tanks. They used a lot of decoys, dressing Ford
Trucks without mufflers like trucks.
>
> > The IDF doesn't adabt any of those antiquated
> > ideas, they say we're glad to have you. If not you, who? Officers are
> > called by first names.
>
> What antiquated ideas?
>
That the only way to get the best out of people is to treat them in barbaric
manners.
>
> > Our military wins by technology, science, and intelligence. The Marines
> > have their place, and for some it serves it's purpose. Other's have enough
> > intelligence to do other things with their lives. Or don't need to be abused.
>
> And you have what first hand experience with the Marine Corps? Try
> reading some history of the USMC and see if you still think they, on the
> whole, lack intelligence or thrive on abuse.
> ps
That's true, they use technology.
The future is technology and thinking.
Bob
Beach
DRS wrote:
> Beach Run...@nospam.com <Beach Run...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
> [...]
>
> > Just a comment. The most effective military in history, for it's size
> > is the Israeli military.
>
> I'd be more cautious about declaring them the best in history. Just to pick
> one of many possible examples, the Finns did a mighty job in WWII of holding
> off the Soviets. I wouldn't seriously attempt to say whether they were
> better or not than the Israelis, merely to point out the danger of such
> hyperbole.
>
That's a great point about the Finns. I guess a lot has to do with what people
are capable of when they know their back is against the wall, and the people
are resourceful.
>
> [...]
>
> > Our military wins by technology, science, and intelligence.
>
> And logistics. The US military has far and away the best logistics in the
> world. OTOH, it is over-reliant on technology. Witness the recent
> engagements in Afghanistan. Time and again the air force bombed the crap
> out of some part of the countryside and the inteligence people pronounced
> the area cleared of Taliban fighters. The Australian SAS patrols went in
> and next thing you know they were in fire fights with the non-existent
> Taliban, thus proving that even today there is no substitute for men on the
> ground getting up close and personal. Th US wants to do everything from a
> distance, which is not always possible or even desirable.
>
The problem with Afghanistan is we were attacking a people in a people.
Nothing was ever clear cut and still isn't. The US has no idea how to
handle and control Afghanistan.
We understood Dessert Storm, had a clear purpose. It was JSTARS that
made the incredible success possible, and a bunch of middle aged Grumman
engineers.
Now in Iraq we have no clear purpose, we were lied to right and left. The only
obvious conclusion in control of the oil supply. There is no real plan. We
should
be moving away from oil technology and into new high technologies.
We also should not be outsourcing high technology.
Watch out for the Chinese, they are taking the high ground. You don't go to
space just
for science. Most of the spending in the US on Space over the last bunch of
years
is military and the technology could theoretically be very exciting.
Bob
DRSisAnIdiot
"AlphaOmega" <Alpha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0a05b0cf21723d3...@news.teranews.com...> news:bnmtjs$1nc$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> > gps <gst...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > 3F9EF3FC...@ix.netcom.com
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > And you have what first hand experience with the Marine Corps? Try
> > > reading some history of the USMC and see if you still think they, on
> > > the whole, lack intelligence or thrive on abuse.
> >
> > Your patriotism is commendable but little else. If ever I need someone
to
> > charge up a hill or storm a beach the USMC would be top of my list. But
> > they have never been known, in military circles or otherwise, for
> > intelligence, innovation or flexibility.
>
Yes he is!
>
> You did not answer his question; but that is usual for you Mr. Reality!
We know; DRS cannot argue with reason or facts; as soon as he is asked about
his inane posts, he will plonk the person to ensure he does not have to
demonstrate his idiocy.
>
>
>
DRSisAnIdiot
> > DRS wrote:
> > >
> > > gps <gst...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > > 3F9EF3FC...@ix.netcom.com
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > And you have what first hand experience with the Marine Corps? Try
> > > > reading some history of the USMC and see if you still think they, on
> > > > the whole, lack intelligence or thrive on abuse.
> > >
> > > Your patriotism is commendable but little else.
> >
> > It has nothing to do with patriotism.
> >
> > > If ever I need someone to
> > > charge up a hill or storm a beach the USMC would be top of my list.
> >
> > Naturally.
> >
> > > But they have never been known, in military circles or otherwise, for
> > > intelligence, innovation or flexibility.
> >
> > Never been known to you perhaps, but your ignorance does not make it
> > so.
>
it;
> unfortunately, his Reality has nothing to do with what exists.
AnIdiotIsDRS
That means he is in the 10th grade now - hard to believe his idiocy has
carried him that far; must be a different reality where he lives!
>
> > ps
>
>
gps
>
> gps wrote:
>
> > Beach, Run...@nospam.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Robert Schuh wrote:
> > >
> > > > kaloalex wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Just a comment. The most effective military in history, for it's size is the
> > > Israeli military. How does it survive with several million people versus
> > > over a billion Arabs?
> >
> > It survives thanks to the backing of the USA military industrial
> > complex.
> >
>
> How about 1948? No US help at all. Attacked by 5 nations, outnumbered
> outgunned. 5 Nations attacked Israel, and they had all the left over British
> military technology and Soviet technology. The only tanks the Israelis had
> were Italian very inferior tanks. They used a lot of decoys, dressing Ford
> Trucks without mufflers like trucks.
You got me there. Still, you wouldn't deny the contribution of the USA
to the defense capabilities of Israel, would you?
> > > The IDF doesn't adabt any of those antiquated
> > > ideas, they say we're glad to have you. If not you, who? Officers are
> > > called by first names.
> >
> > What antiquated ideas?
> >
>
> That the only way to get the best out of people is to treat them in barbaric
> manners.
What Kalo (or Fred or whoever that was) was describing was boot camp.
It is a tried and true method of taking civilians and turning them into
basic Marines. It's really not as barbaric as you seem to think, at
least not these days. Besides it's over in 12 weeks and then you're in
the Fleet, which is usually quite different.
ps
gps
<snip>
> I don't know shit
> I don't know shit
> I don't know shit
> I am nothing and no one
> Thank you for my life
> Thank you for everything
> I am truly grateful
> I am truly grateful
> By grace of the Great Spirit in all things
> I go to be the best I can be
> And work to make the world a better place
> In my humble way
> So let it be
Not bad, but I prefer this one:
Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I shall fear no evil
For I am the baddest motherfucker in the valley.
ps
MJL
<d...@OmegaZero2003sucksdonkeydicks.ihug.com.au> wrote:
>Lee Michaels <leemichaels*nada-spam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
>qnznb.39694$ao4.84404@attbi_s51
>> "kaloalex" <kaloal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:73268092a85e9309...@news.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> Tell you what; I've had it with whiners. Further, if I hear the
>>> phrase "self-esteem" again, I'm going to kill something. It'll
>>> happen. Just wait. Some New Age psycho therapeutically babbling
>>> little parsnip is going to gurgle to me about how arduous his life
>>> is, when he probably doesn't have a life to begin with, and about
>>> how it's somebody else's fault, probably mine, and his self-esteem
>>> is all bruised and rancid and has warts on it. And I'm going to
>>> stuff him into a concrete mixer. No, wait. I've got a better idea.
>>> I'll pack him off instead to Marine Corps boot camp at Parris
>>> Island, in the festering mosquito swamps of South Carolina.
>
>[...]
>
>> I generally agree, 'cept that part about the hangnails. ;)
>
>Marines are generally just masochists themselves anyway. Of course they
>don't care about self-esteem - they get their kicks being abused.
This is probably true. Their worldview is one of momentum of their
views and to get over it (whatever it is). I think that is
essentially the disposition you want in a person expected to kill
people and break things without remorse or hesitation.
Do I think that works for the general population? No.
MJL
>There isn't a phrase I hate more than that fucking "self esteem"
>
>We need mandatory military service in this country, say 1 year minimum,
>perhaps 2. To many kids wandering around with their thumbs up their
>asses & no direction in life.
>
>my .02(C$)
>
Like the system that has made the Greek military the envy of the
planet?
MJL
>Now in Iraq we have no clear purpose, we were lied to right and left. The only
>obvious conclusion in control of the oil supply. There is no real plan. We
>should
>be moving away from oil technology and into new high technologies.
I think it is interesting that we drill into the ground to find the
energy of hydrocarbon chains that were made millions of years ago by
the energy of the sun when that very solar energy still falls on us
from the sky. Better energy sources exist, it is simple momentum that
keeps us burning up long dead mammals to power our economy.
OmegaZero2003
"MJL" <jert...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:k351qvch3qkdt1m3i...@4ax.com...
It is a question of: energy density and the cost to extract a given useable
joule at that density.
>
>
Beach
gps wrote:
> Beach, Run...@nospam.com wrote:
> >
> > gps wrote:
> >
> > > Beach, Run...@nospam.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Robert Schuh wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > kaloalex wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just a comment. The most effective military in history, for it's size is the
> > > > Israeli military. How does it survive with several million people versus
> > > > over a billion Arabs?
> > >
> > > It survives thanks to the backing of the USA military industrial
> > > complex.
> > >
> >
> > How about 1948? No US help at all. Attacked by 5 nations, outnumbered
> > outgunned. 5 Nations attacked Israel, and they had all the left over British
> > military technology and Soviet technology. The only tanks the Israelis had
> > were Italian very inferior tanks. They used a lot of decoys, dressing Ford
> > Trucks without mufflers like trucks.
>
> You got me there. Still, you wouldn't deny the contribution of the USA
> to the defense capabilities of Israel, would you?
>
Actually, it goes both ways. The Israelis develop a lot of new technologies
for the US. IF the US had listened to the Mossad, 911 would never have happened.
Take the Arrow missile, a huge improvement over the Raytheon missile so famous but
largely ineffective in dessert storm. When the Israelis purchase our aircraft, they
replace
all the avionics with higher quality avionics.
>
> > > > The IDF doesn't adabt any of those antiquated
> > > > ideas, they say we're glad to have you. If not you, who? Officers are
> > > > called by first names.
> > >
> > > What antiquated ideas?
> > >
> >
> > That the only way to get the best out of people is to treat them in barbaric
> > manners.
>
> What Kalo (or Fred or whoever that was) was describing was boot camp.
> It is a tried and true method of taking civilians and turning them into
> basic Marines. It's really not as barbaric as you seem to think, at
> least not these days. Besides it's over in 12 weeks and then you're in
> the Fleet, which is usually quite different.
> ps
The concept that you have to treat people like shit. That the only way to make them
effective fighters was to put them through the most dehumanizing experience possible.
Israel has no need to do that, and IDF continues to outperform billions of wealthy
Arab
nations. They have got technology from the US, but it still takes people that don't
turn and run. Not the Arab nations also get technology from the US, and previously
did from the Soviets and other nations. In the 1972 Yom Kippur War when the Egyptians
were attacked they jumped out of their higher superior tanks and rode back on camels.
Bob
Do you think Einstein would have been able to complete boot camp?
He couldn't even compete in structured school. Yet he revolutionized weapon systems
and much theory.
Or even the best marketer in the world, Bill Gates. He took inferior products
and has transformed the US. He'd couldn't survive college.
Most of the best weapon systems currently in use were not made by boot camp survivors,
since we now have an optional military. Do you think most new Harris or Northrop
Grumman
engineers, developing our latest technologies went through boot camp? No, they're too
smart.
Most folks these days that go through boot camp are people that had few options in
life.
For some, boot camp could be EXACTLY what they need but the concept
the EVERYONE needs the same training molds people into the same concept. It's
probably
very useful for people with no self-discipline or direction, but definitely not or
people that
walk to their own drummer. Why waste many of these incredible minds.
DRS
5b439cef101ce596...@news.teranews.com
You're such a loser:
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Subject: Re: The Marine Corps and Psychotherapy
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DRS
d9c22666a4266319...@news.teranews.com
[...]
> We know; DRS cannot argue with reason or facts; as soon as he is
> asked about his inane posts, he will plonk the person to ensure he
> does not have to demonstrate his idiocy.
You're a liar as well as a fool.
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Subject: Re: The Marine Corps and Psychotherapy
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T.R.H
I'm thinking of the swedish, danish, german and the many other countries
that have mandatory service, I believe the israelis as well....
kaloalex
>
>>>>>The IDF doesn't adabt any of those antiquated
>>>>>ideas, they say we're glad to have you. If not you, who? Officers are
>>>>>called by first names.
To be fair, they don't need to motivate their civilians to become
soldiers. Their recruits have been under siege most of their lives at
the outset. I don't see that a parallel can be drawn or supported
between the recruiting pool of the IDF and the USMC
>>>>
>>>>What antiquated ideas?
>>>>
>>>
>>>That the only way to get the best out of people is to treat them in barbaric
>>>manners.
>>
>>What Kalo (or Fred or whoever that was) was describing was boot camp.
>>It is a tried and true method of taking civilians and turning them into
>>basic Marines. It's really not as barbaric as you seem to think, at
>>least not these days. Besides it's over in 12 weeks and then you're in
>>the Fleet, which is usually quite different.
>>ps
>
>
> The concept that you have to treat people like shit. That the only way to make them
> effective fighters was to put them through the most dehumanizing experience possible.
Boot Camp was in no way dehumanizing. Really, it was just full of
unexpected actions. And therefore stressful. And instructive in terms
of learning who you are and what you can accomplish. Prison is
dehumanizing, boot camp is just challenging.
> Israel has no need to do that, and IDF continues to outperform billions of wealthy
> Arab
> nations. They have got technology from the US, but it still takes people that don't
> turn and run. Not the Arab nations also get technology from the US, and previously
> did from the Soviets and other nations. In the 1972 Yom Kippur War when the Egyptians
>
> were attacked they jumped out of their higher superior tanks and rode back on camels.
>
> Bob
>
>
> Do you think Einstein would have been able to complete boot camp?
> He couldn't even compete in structured school. Yet he revolutionized weapon systems
> and much theory.
>
> Or even the best marketer in the world, Bill Gates. He took inferior products
> and has transformed the US. He'd couldn't survive college.
I think they'd both have done just fine. 12 to 13 weeks of
structure-bound chaos is hardly a mind killing experience. The
incidence of college suicide (especially at the "brighter" schools is
considerably higher than that of Parris Island or MCRD)
>
> Most of the best weapon systems currently in use were not made by boot camp survivors,
>
> since we now have an optional military.
And you get these stats from . . .?
Do you think most new Harris or Northrop
> Grumman
> engineers, developing our latest technologies went through boot camp?
Quite a few weapons (and related, and tangential) systems engineers have
combat experience, actually. Engineers with military experience are
hardly a rarity.
No, they're too
> smart.
> Most folks these days that go through boot camp are people that had few options in
> life.
Hardly. They may have felt that way at the time, but when they look
back on the decision to join, many are overwhelmed by the options they
didn't see. For a seventeen to twenty year old kid, military
conditioning is rarely a stupid decision.
>
>
> For some, boot camp could be EXACTLY what they need but the concept
> the EVERYONE needs the same training molds people into the same concept. It's
> probably
> very useful for people with no self-discipline or direction, but definitely not or
> people that
> walk to their own drummer.
Pardon me, but I walk to my own drummer, thank you very much. Marching
to the beat of a martial drum for a (relatively) short span has given me
great perspective not just on the hidebound of the world, but also on
the free spirits and several points in between.
Why waste many of these incredible minds.
Showing a mind a little objective discipline in no way forces it to
accept that discipline in perpetuity. In other words, boot camp doesn't
waste minds. The choice not to think wastes minds.
Kalo
>
>
OmegaZero2003
"DRS"
>
> > We know; DRS cannot argue with reason or facts; as soon as he is
> > asked about his inane posts, he will plonk the person to ensure he
> > does not have to demonstrate his idiocy.
>
DRS
[...]
>> The concept that you have to treat people like shit. That the only
>> way to make them effective fighters was to put them through the most
>> dehumanizing experience possible.
>
> Boot Camp was in no way dehumanizing.
That's funny, that runs completely contrary to the Marine Corps' own ideas
on what boot camp is for. From the moment the recruits arrive they are
deliberately and systematically stripped of their individuality and capacity
to think for themselves, from the way they're given the buzz cut to the way
they're driven to exhaustion. It's part and parcel of turning a normal
human being into a soldier and the Marines have never tried to hide it. If
anything they're proud of it.
kaloalex
DRS wrote:
> kaloalex <kaloal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> 283a794fee6e7673...@news.teranews.com
>
> [...]
>
>
>>>The concept that you have to treat people like shit. That the only
>>>way to make them effective fighters was to put them through the most
>>>dehumanizing experience possible.
>>
>>Boot Camp was in no way dehumanizing.
>
>
> That's funny, that runs completely contrary to the Marine Corps' own ideas
> on what boot camp is for. From the moment the recruits arrive they are
> deliberately and systematically stripped of their individuality and capacity
> to think for themselves, from the way they're given the buzz cut to the way
> they're driven to exhaustion. It's part and parcel of turning a normal
> human being into a soldier and the Marines have never tried to hide it. If
> anything they're proud of it.
The interesting bit here is that these things in no way compromise the
actual individuality of humans. Recruits tend to realize that the dead
protein leaking from their scalps and the hyperactive outbursts all that
youthful energy gave them has nothing to do with what they are.
The Marine Corps knows this and counts on it. As do all the other
services you have no experience with. The point of Boot Camp is, and
always has been, to condition the individual to comply with orders
generated external to their own thought processes. Those of us who are
not lifers find this instilled attitude of compliance erodes over time.
Treating recruits as components rather than individuals is only
effective from the perspective of the organization, not the continually
growing perspective of the individual. The Corps' stripping of hair and
energy is merely the first step in getting young men and women to look
deep within themselves to find the inalienable brand of self.
That the Corps describes it's own processes and intentions as it does is
an admission that their society is closed, and to some degree,
unknowable to the outside world.
Kalo
>
gps
<snip>
> Pardon me, but I walk to my own drummer, thank you very much. Marching
> to the beat of a martial drum for a (relatively) short span has given me
> great perspective not just on the hidebound of the world, but also on
> the free spirits and several points in between.
>
> Why waste many of these incredible minds.
>
> Showing a mind a little objective discipline in no way forces it to
> accept that discipline in perpetuity. In other words, boot camp doesn't
> waste minds. The choice not to think wastes minds.
>
> Kalo
Excellent response and thank you for doing so. I took a read of his
post and found it so disjointed and rambling I wasn't' going to respond,
I'm glad you did so.
ps
gps
Bravo! You are a gentleman and a scholar.
ps
R.Coyote
"gps" <gst...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3FA07036...@ix.netcom.com...
That was my second choice,, yea
kaloalex
> Bravo! You are a gentleman and a scholar.
Now and then, Pat, now and then. (Actually, looking back on it, my
grammar kinda sucked.)
Kalo
Seth Breidbart
>Or even the best marketer in the world, Bill Gates. He took inferior products
>and has transformed the US. He'd couldn't survive college.
He could, he just decided to make money instead of finishing.
(Besides, he saved all the money he'd have lost at poker if he stuck
around.)
Seth
--
Don't ever masturbate after getting capsaicin on your hands. -- Patrick Arnold