Prohormone research meaningless
Victor Conte
J6nMerc
>sell prohormone products based upon a single study, when nobody in
>the scientific community knows meaning of the results?
Money?
Deemy
>First of all, nobody in the scientific community knows what a “rapid
Yep, spikes are not of much value, the name of the game is to keep the
test levels elevated throughout the day, only letting up a few hours
prior to sleep.
Deemy
------
Futures Trading Site at :-
http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/6284/index.html
Will Brink
<co...@balcolab.com> wrote:
> --------------660C86D2DCD4AFB00DE361D7
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> First of all, nobody in the scientific community knows what a “rapid
> spike” in testosterone levels means. In the only “andro” study
> conducted and presented by Dr. Tim Ziegenfuss at Eastern Michigan
> University, serum testosterone levels were measured in seven untrained
> subjects at 0, 30, 60 and 90 minutes following the ingestion of
> placebo, 100 mg androstenedione or 100 mg of Androdiol. Relative to
> placebo, androstenedione ingestion caused a 14.8% increase in total
> testosterone at 90 minutes, while Androdiol caused a 47.7% increase at
> 90 minutes. Once again, nobody knows whether these quick spike (3
> hours or less?) increases in testosterone levels will cause any type of
> performance enhancement without causing adverse side effects. The
> efficacy of “andro” supplements will remain unknown until they have been
> studied more extensively utilizing valid research protocols. At this
> time, there is no evidence that the acute increases in testosterone
> caused by “andro” supplements will result in significant increases in
> protein synthesis or greater strength and/ or size gains. My guess is
> that any beneficial effects would be minimal and the risks are unknown.
> I called and asked Dr. Richard Horton, Chief of the Division of
> Endocrinology at the USC School of Medicine about the prohormone
> research. Dr. Horton is an anabolic hormone expert, who has published
> hundreds of scientific studies. He said "At this time nobody in the
> scientific community knows what this research means!" I then called Dr.
> Tim Ziegenfuss and told him what Dr. Horton had said. Dr. Ziegenfuss
> said that he agreed with Dr. Horton! Why do companies sell prohormone
> products based upon a single study, when nobody in the scientific
> community knows meaning of the results?
Victor you have a lot to learn about bodybuilding sports supp companies! :-)
Most of what they sell is based on FAR less science than the andro
products which at least have a few studies both old and new, with several
additional studies coming out soon. What Zeigenfuss's research "means" is
that the andros tested do indeed spike T for a few hours. Thats all. What
effects such a spike will have on LBM is the question yet to be answered.
First however, someone had to at least show the andros had some effect of
some kind on T levels before bothering with LBM studies. I suspect such
spikes will have no effects on LBM but that remains to be seen and I know
of several groups who plan on looking at just that shortly. If a
supplement company sells 4-diol or dione and claims it will raise T for a
few hours there is enough data old and new to be safe with that claim.
Saying it will make you look like Flex and Dorian is total BS and par for
the course with the industry.
>
>
--
-Will Brink, http://www.brinkzone.com/
[people interested in being added to the Brinkzone mailing list should send an email with the topic heading ³add to email.²]
³Luck is the residue of design² Unknown
Lester Long
wbr...@earthlink.net (Will Brink) wrote:
>additional studies coming out soon. What Zeigenfuss's research "means" is
>that the andros tested do indeed spike T for a few hours. Thats all. What
>effects such a spike will have on LBM is the question yet to be answered.
I thought essentially prohromones are rather weak steriods. Are there studies
that show that increased test levels increase LBM?
Victor Conte
Thanks for your response. Would you please be so kind as to tell me what other
valid published research exists for any type of andro product. As far as I know, the first
Dr.Ziegenfuss study is the only one that has at least been presented (at a conference in
Finland), however I am not sure it has even been published. Please enlighten me regarding any
further valid "andro" research that has at least been presented. I am very interested in any andro study that included
cholesterol, DHT, estrogen, liver enzyme levels, etc. Looking forward to your response. VC
Will Brink wrote:
> In article <36FD6BC5...@balcolab.com>, Victor Conte
> <co...@balcolab.com> wrote:
>
>
> Victor you have a lot to learn about bodybuilding sports supp companies! :-)
> Most of what they sell is based on FAR less science than the andro
> products which at least have a few studies both old and new, with several
> additional studies coming out soon. What Zeigenfuss's research "means" is
> that the andros tested do indeed spike T for a few hours. Thats all. What
> effects such a spike will have on LBM is the question yet to be answered.
The Anabolic Assaholic
- Why do politicians listen to rich people?
- Why do people buy lottery tickets?
- Why do I go to work in the morning rather than watch Regis and Kathie Lee?
- Why did the chicken cross the road?
* Interviewer: "Why do you rob banks,
Willy?"
Wille Sutton: "That's where
the money is!"
oliv...@hotmail.com
Victor Conte <co...@balcolab.com> wrote:
Would you please be so kind as to tell me what
other
> valid published research exists for any type of andro product.
There is a few published studies done on current prohormones, but none of
them (I think) with oral analogues (everything either SC or IM
administration). There is a study from Alabama university on women given
4-diol for the treatment of mammary tumors (1962). At the dose of 100 mg.
3xweek it was hown to have the same effectiveness as test. propionate in that
regard. A pre-clinical trial also showed 4-diol had significant myotrophic
properties (in rats though). Funny thing is that 5-diol (a controversial one
:-)) was tested as early as in 1937 with regards to N balance and growth in
pre-pubertal boys. It was shown to have NO significant effect on N balance in
that study. There are also some other older studies regarding NOR products
and N balance, with nor-4-diol showing the most favorable results (increased
N retention by about 30%, but I can't remember if it was done on humans ).
Somewhat significant, but more research is needed.:-)
Oliver JR
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Patrick Arnold
>
> First of all, nobody in the scientific community knows what a “rapid
> spike” in testosterone levels means. In the only “andro” study
> conducted and presented by Dr. Tim Ziegenfuss at Eastern Michigan
> University, serum testosterone levels were measured in seven untrained
> subjects at 0, 30, 60 and 90 minutes following the ingestion of
> placebo, 100 mg androstenedione or 100 mg of Androdiol. Relative to
> placebo, androstenedione ingestion caused a 14.8% increase in total
> testosterone at 90 minutes, while Androdiol caused a 47.7% increase at
> 90 minutes. Once again, nobody knows whether these quick spike (3
> hours or less?) increases in testosterone levels will cause any type
> of performance enhancement without causing adverse side effects. The
> efficacy of “andro” supplements will remain unknown until they have
> been studied more extensively utilizing valid research protocols. At
> this time, there is no evidence that the acute increases in
> testosterone caused by “andro” supplements will result in significant
> increases in protein synthesis or greater strength and/ or size
> gains. My guess is that any beneficial effects would be minimal and
> the risks are unknown. I called and asked Dr. Richard Horton, Chief
> of the Division of Endocrinology at the USC School of Medicine about
> the prohormone research. Dr. Horton is an anabolic hormone expert, who
> has published hundreds of scientific studies. He said "At this time
> then called Dr. Tim Ziegenfuss and told him what Dr. Horton had said.
> sell prohormone products based upon a single study, when nobody in
> the scientific community knows meaning of the results?
>
>
they are sold, at least i have always sold them, as a means to raise
testosterone. I cannot afford a performance study. Forgive my FUCKING
ASS for trying to bring something better than cybergenics to the market
--
PA
Patrick Andrew Norris
:>they are sold, at least i have always sold them, as a means to raise
:>testosterone. I cannot afford a performance study. Forgive my FUCKING
:>ASS for trying to bring something better than cybergenics to the market
:>--
:>PA
Hahaha... lmao. I think people who read this group regularly are
aware that something better cybergenics is being sold here.
Patrick Andrew
Tmagdotcom
>From: Patrick Arnold <parn...@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 20:10 EST
>Message-id: <36FED3...@ix.netcom.com>
>
>Victor Conte wrote: snip>hey are sold, at least i have always sold them, as a
means to raise
>testosterone. I cannot afford a performance study. Forgive my FUCKING
>ASS for trying to bring something better than >cybergenics to the market
Better play it safe and stick to things like zinc, Pat. Of course, you'd
better make it magic zinc (consult with Richard Goodman for the specifics of
the ceremony) so that you can charge thousands of dollars for a years supply of
it.
>PA
></PRE></HTML>
tmagdotcom
Adam Fahy
> they are sold, at least i have always sold them, as a means to raise
> testosterone. I cannot afford a performance study. Forgive my FUCKING
> ASS for trying to bring something better than cybergenics to the market
Yeah, Pat -all that effort when you could be using a proven muscle
builder like Zinc.
Oh blessed zinc, from whose holy might all power derives: bestow upon me
your unfailing strength so that I may vanquish the non-believers.
--
Adam Fahy; af...@earthlink.net
Jo...@ucla.edu
Victor Conte <co...@balcolab.com> wrote:
Why do companies sell prohormone
> products based upon a single study, when nobody in the scientific
> community knows meaning of the results?
>
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> <HTML>
There are at least three studies on prohormones that I know of going on right
now. One is specifically studying the effects of androstenedione and 5-adiol
on performance and body composition. One small supplement company that sells
prohormones is devoting 10% of its net profits to research, and helping to
fund this research. I hope more supplement companies follow this policy and
fund some resarch on the effectiveness of 4-adiol and nor-4-adiol.
Josh Shackman
Research Director
Sports Medicine and Preventive Medical Group
www.agingprevent.com
Patrick Arnold
>
> In article <36FD6BC5...@balcolab.com>, Victor Conte
> <co...@balcolab.com> wrote:
>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >
> > spike” in testosterone levels means. In the only “andro” study
> > conducted and presented by Dr. Tim Ziegenfuss at Eastern Michigan
> > University, serum testosterone levels were measured in seven untrained
> > subjects at 0, 30, 60 and 90 minutes following the ingestion of
> > placebo, 100 mg androstenedione or 100 mg of Androdiol. Relative to
> > placebo, androstenedione ingestion caused a 14.8% increase in total
> > testosterone at 90 minutes, while Androdiol caused a 47.7% increase at
> > 90 minutes. Once again, nobody knows whether these quick spike (3
> > hours or less?) increases in testosterone levels will cause any type of
> > performance enhancement without causing adverse side effects. The
> > efficacy of “andro” supplements will remain unknown until they have been
> > studied more extensively utilizing valid research protocols. At this
> > time, there is no evidence that the acute increases in testosterone
> > caused by “andro” supplements will result in significant increases in
> > protein synthesis or greater strength and/ or size gains. My guess is
> > that any beneficial effects would be minimal and the risks are unknown.
> > I called and asked Dr. Richard Horton, Chief of the Division of
> > Endocrinology at the USC School of Medicine about the prohormone
> > research. Dr. Horton is an anabolic hormone expert, who has published
> > scientific community knows what this research means!" I then called Dr.
> > Tim Ziegenfuss and told him what Dr. Horton had said. Dr. Ziegenfuss
> > products based upon a single study, when nobody in the scientific
> > community knows meaning of the results?
>
> Most of what they sell is based on FAR less science than the andro
> products which at least have a few studies both old and new, with several
> additional studies coming out soon. What Zeigenfuss's research "means" is
> that the andros tested do indeed spike T for a few hours. Thats all. What
> effects such a spike will have on LBM is the question yet to be answered.
> First however, someone had to at least show the andros had some effect of
> some kind on T levels before bothering with LBM studies. I suspect such
> spikes will have no effects on LBM but that remains to be seen and I know
> of several groups who plan on looking at just that shortly. If a
> supplement company sells 4-diol or dione and claims it will raise T for a
> few hours there is enough data old and new to be safe with that claim.
> Saying it will make you look like Flex and Dorian is total BS and par for
> the course with the industry.
>
> >
You know, you all act as though everyone takes these products once a
day. they take them as much as 4 to 6 times throughout the day. Or
they take much higher one time doses. Which means their test levels are
probably more or less constantly raised.
--
PA
Patrick Arnold
>
> In article <36FE6677...@balcolab.com>,
> Victor Conte <co...@balcolab.com> wrote:
> Would you please be so kind as to tell me what
> other
> > valid published research exists for any type of andro product.
>
> There is a few published studies done on current prohormones, but none of
> them (I think) with oral analogues (everything either SC or IM
> administration). There is a study from Alabama university on women given
> 4-diol for the treatment of mammary tumors (1962). At the dose of 100 mg.
> 3xweek it was hown to have the same effectiveness as test. propionate in that
> regard. A pre-clinical trial also showed 4-diol had significant myotrophic
> properties (in rats though). Funny thing is that 5-diol (a controversial one
> :-)) was tested as early as in 1937 with regards to N balance and growth in
> pre-pubertal boys. It was shown to have NO significant effect on N balance in
> that study. There are also some other older studies regarding NOR products
> and N balance, with nor-4-diol showing the most favorable results (increased
> N retention by about 30%, but I can't remember if it was done on humans ).
> Somewhat significant, but more research is needed.:-)
>
> Oliver JR
thanx Oliver, that was impressive as far as that it shows you have hit
the books
--
PA
Victor Conte
Even if an athletes takes multiple doses of an andro product per day for a period
of time, what does it mean in terms of performance enhancement? Does anybody
know? Any valid data to show it causes LBM or muscle strength increases? How
long will the endogenous testosterone levels be suppressed after an andro cycle?
Aslong as the cycle? Will the suppressed endogenous testosterone production after
an andro cycle completely negate the positive benefits, if there are any? The are
still a lot of questions that remain unanswered. VC
Voigt Global Distribution
Victor Conte wrote:
> Dear Patrick:
>
> Even if an athletes takes multiple doses of an andro product per day for a period
> of time, what does it mean in terms of performance enhancement? Does anybody
> know? Any valid data to show it causes LBM or muscle strength increases? How
> long will the endogenous testosterone levels be suppressed after an andro cycle?
> Aslong as the cycle? Will the suppressed endogenous testosterone production after
> an andro cycle completely negate the positive benefits, if there are any?
You could make the same question about the use of scheduled anabolics, but that's not
going to stop people from "crossing the border" now will it? Thats why people don't
usually like to stop taking something that works once they started using it.
Taking prohormones every 4 hours - keeping the endogenous levels well above (200 -
300%) baseline throughout the day - what do you think? Even when people used the old
oral androgens, the increased stimulation of motor neurons from neural androgen
receptor occupation gave increased strength levels from periodic "spikes" in their
testosterone levels. Why couldnt that be at least part of the mechanism behind
androstenediol?
A better study could be made by doing a double blinded, placebo controlled third party
administration of prohormones to bodybuilders that would later be switched (crossover)
to put an end to this issue.
Besides, I have 15 prison guards here in Kansas that swear by the use of Diol4 in
regards to strength and aggression. They take one every 5 hours throughout the day and
night.
Dont get imprisoned here in Topeka!
Wade A. Voigt
--
Voigt Global Distribution
Your international supplier of chemicals, nutritional supplements,
pro-hormones, food additives, herbs, plant extracts / essential oils,
and laboratory equipment.
CLM
arguing "against" the andro studies or "non studies" in any way. Stay
on the Zinc/Mag/B-6 and mineral path and defend, no need for you to
attack other products.
What would be the effects of (I will say ZMA for convience), ZMA AND
Andro/NorAndro supplementation??
Here is a nice complicated and expensive supplement routine:
300mg Androdione capsule
300mg NorAndrodione capsule
300mg Nor/Andro diol capsule
Taken 4x/day
25mg Nordiol/Androdiol losenges
Taken 3x/day
ZMA: taken as you have directed.
Basically with this supplementation routine you have 8 periods that
could be spaced 3 hours apart on a continual 24hr basis.
Whats gonna happen? Nothing? Something? Who knows????
Now what would be seen?? Build on each other? (If either supplement
acutally raises test high enough and long enough for results.) Negate
each other?
On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:50:37 -0800, Victor Conte <co...@balcolab.com>
wrote:
>Dear Patrick:
>
>Even if an athletes takes multiple doses of an andro product per day for a period
>of time, what does it mean in terms of performance enhancement? Does anybody
>know? Any valid data to show it causes LBM or muscle strength increases? How
>long will the endogenous testosterone levels be suppressed after an andro cycle?
>Aslong as the cycle? Will the suppressed endogenous testosterone production after
>an andro cycle completely negate the positive benefits, if there are any? The are
>still a lot of questions that remain unanswered. VC
>
>Patrick Arnold wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> You know, you all act as though everyone takes these products once a
>> day. they take them as much as 4 to 6 times throughout the day. Or
>> they take much higher one time doses. Which means their test levels are
>> probably more or less constantly raised.
>>
>> --
>>
>> PA
>
>
>
"The mind is the limit. As long as the mind can
envision the fact that you can do something, you
can do it as long as you really believe 100%."
- Arnold Schwarzenegger
Deemy
>Dear Patrick:
>
>Even if an athletes takes multiple doses of an andro product per day for a period
>of time, what does it mean in terms of performance enhancement? Does anybody
>know? Any valid data to show it causes LBM or muscle strength increases? How
>long will the endogenous testosterone levels be suppressed after an andro cycle?
>Aslong as the cycle? Will the suppressed endogenous testosterone production after
>an andro cycle completely negate the positive benefits, if there are any? The are
>still a lot of questions that remain unanswered. VC
>
>Patrick Arnold wrote:
Well here are the results of my last cycle :-
ON Cycle lasted 33 days
Total dosages were:-
13grams of 4ad.
12grams of nor-andro
So total 25grams
peak cycle dosage was 1100mg (600 4ad, 500 nor) a day
Average was 757mgs.
Raised calories to 25% above maintenance levels.
And trained on alternative days.
Total weight gain was 7lbs
Estimated lean mass gain was 4.5lbs
Strength gain was 10%
OFF Cycle Lasted 35 days
Calories just below maintenance
Total weight loss was 2.1lbs
Estimated lean mass loss was 0.7lbs
Strength gain was 2%
Supplemented with Creatine and some tribulus.
Net results for the 68 day cycle are -
Weight Gain = 4.9lbs
Estimated lean mass gain 3.8lbs
Strength Gain = 12%
With un-tested test levels being perceived at being back to 'normal
levels' i.e. based on performance during the latter part of the off
cycle with strength moving from negative to positive territory.
Strategy for next cycle is to split the gain cycle in half i.e. 6 days
clean in mid gain cycle, to give natural test production a breather,
will see if this is more beneficial to gains and recover than a
straight on cycle.
oliv...@hotmail.com
Uhm...yeah. I guess I will take it as a compliment. Considering I have lerned
to read only recently.:-)
Oliver JR
> --
>
> PA
Patrick Arnold
>
> Dear Patrick:
>
> Even if an athletes takes multiple doses of an andro product per day for a period
> of time, what does it mean in terms of performance enhancement? Does anybody
> know? Any valid data to show it causes LBM or muscle strength increases? How
> long will the endogenous testosterone levels be suppressed after an andro cycle?
> Aslong as the cycle? Will the suppressed endogenous testosterone production after
> an andro cycle completely negate the positive benefits, if there are any? The are
> still a lot of questions that remain unanswered. VC
>
Victor,
Do suppressed androgen levels after an anabolic steroid cycle completely
negate the positive benefits of the AS cycle?
Why don't you spend the money to do the performance enhancement study?
I myself am spending every penny on getting out a HPBCD product that is
affordable so don't get mad at me for not financing this research.
--
PA
Patrick Arnold
> Besides, I have 15 prison guards here in Kansas that swear by the use of Diol4 in
> regards to strength and aggression. They take one every 5 hours throughout the day and
> night.
>
> Dont get imprisoned here in Topeka!
>
I have a champaign county cop that i put on about 1000mg of a mixture of
nordione, nordiol, and 4-AD. He was 220 and could not gain a pound if
his life depended on it. he is now 250 and worships the ground i walk
on (making no claims here, he is just one guy, perhaps a super responder
or perhaps i just got him on such a high dosage). too bad the other
cops are too chicken to try the stuff.
--
PA
Victor Conte
Are prohormones and anabolic steroids considered by you to be equal? Please explain in
detail!
I know of a pro bodybuilder that had a serum testosterone level of under 50 ng/dL for
over three
months after an anabolic steroid cycle. It is quite likely that this negated some of
the positive effects,
don't you think? I think a prohormone safety study needs to be done before a
performance study!
Phase three clinical trials for pharmaceutical products always conduct the safety
studies first, don't they? Looking forward to your response. VC
Patrick Arnold wrote:
Victor Conte
Do you plan to submit this impressive case study for publication in a peer-reviewed
scientific journal anytime soon? VC
patrick arnold
that you do not understand? Is taking something short acting several times a day to
maintain activity a concept beyond your mental capacity?
Do you suggest I win the lottery and then spend all my money on phase 1 thru a phase
1zillion studies before i introduce a supplement?
You sell a fucking mineral supplement. You groundbreaker you.
Victor Conte wrote:
--
PA
Victor Conte
What I don't understand is how much and for how long endogenous production of
testosterone is suppressed after a prohormone cycle! Please explain this to me! What
are the adverse health effects that may occur with the use of prohormones? Are there
going to be long term and enduring negative effects upon people's endocrine systems after
prohormone use? Why are people posting on MFW that after a prohormone cycle their weight
drops significantly (by 7 lbs in one post) below their baseline weight before starting
the prohormne cycle? Why are people posting that they shit blood while using
prohormones? I have many more questions, but please start by providing answers to these
qsuestions. I would appreciate an expedious response. Sincerely, VC P.S. I don't
think that these questions are funny and I hope that you don't either!
Victor Conte
telling me to get educated, when there are no published scientific studies regarding
prohormones that
supply the answeres to my questions. I am asking you the questions, becasue the answers
don't exist in the scientific literature. I think you know very well that prohormones
cause adverse side effects, but it doesn't serve you as a businessman to discuss these
issues. Looking forward to your response. VC
Dear Patrick:
Are prohormones and anabolic steroids considered by you to be equal? Please explain in
detail!
I know of a pro bodybuilder that had a serum testosterone level of under 50 ng/dL for
over three
months after an anabolic steroid cycle. It is quite likely that this negated some of
the positive effects,
don't you think? I think a prohormone safety study needs to be done before a
performance study!
Phase three clinical trials for pharmaceutical products always conduct the safety
studies first, don't they? Looking forward to your response. VC
Patrick Arnold wrote:
> Victor Conte wrote:
> >
Patrick Arnold wrote:
> Victor Conte wrote:
> >
> > Dear Patrick:
> >
> > Even if an athletes takes multiple doses of an andro product per day for a period
> > of time, what does it mean in terms of performance enhancement? Does anybody
> > know? Any valid data to show it causes LBM or muscle strength increases? How
> > long will the endogenous testosterone levels be suppressed after an andro cycle?
> > Aslong as the cycle? Will the suppressed endogenous testosterone production after
> > an andro cycle completely negate the positive benefits, if there are any? The are
> > still a lot of questions that remain unanswered. VC
> >
>
Patrick Arnold
>
> Dear Patrick: Why do you refuse to answer my questions. Why to you email me privately
> telling me to get educated, when there are no published scientific studies regarding
> prohormones that
> supply the answeres to my questions.
What i am trying to tell you is that there are published studies on
anabolic steroids including testosterone and nortestosterone. Until
there are published studies on prohormones the best we can do is
extrapolate these known studies to prohormones. I am getting tired of
your accusatory attitude towards me. The raises in serum testosterone
have been proven in the two studies i can afford. One would think that
these raises, especially if oral and cyclodextrin complexed were
combined at frequent intervals throughout the day, would result in
significant gains. you seem to think i am a crook for making the stuff
and selling it before i have invested a million dollars into research
that will satisfy you.
As far as the suppression of natural testosterone production, yes that
is an issue. What i was TRYING to tell you is that this problem never
stopped people from using anabolic steroids in a controlled and
appropriate manner. Cycles of short length with sufficient rest periods
between have been known to result in overall great gains in mass and
strength. I see no reason why the same should not be seen for
prohormones. No matter how you and Tim patterson wish it to be.
I am asking you the questions, becasue the answers
> don't exist in the scientific literature. I think you know very well that prohormones
> cause adverse side effects, but it doesn't serve you as a businessman to discuss these
> issues.
I am sick and tired of you. You have never followed me for very long.
I have discussed HPTA suppression and estrogen conversion in detail and
with complete honesty. i do not deserve your accusations. Who the hell
are you and where the hell did you come from and what gives you the
right to act like this towards me. Ask the veterans on this group, I
have NEVER avoided the negative issues on prohormones. It makes me sick
to my stomach to be accused of being what you think i am.
--
PA
Butch Smith
wrote:
>Dear Patrick:
>
>Do you plan to submit this impressive case study for publication in a peer-reviewed
>scientific journal anytime soon? VC
Victor you are nothing but a spamming ass with an agenda. If you have
anything good to say do so and go spam some other groups. Do you ever
post anything to this forum that doesn't pertain to selling your magic
minerals or smearing someone to try to make yourself look good? You
are jealous of Pat Arnold and all the success the prohormone people
have enjoyed, not unlike your pal Tim Patterson. I'm sure you two will
bang your little heads together and come up with a real nice stack to
save us all from ourselves and the nasty prohormones.
Butch Smith
----
"Please stop calling me an asshole, or I will be forced to
be involved in a fracas with you."
----afriKan
Tmagdotcom
>I have discussed HPTA suppression and estrogen conversion in detail and
>with complete honesty. i do not deserve your accusations. Who the hell
>are you and where the hell did you come from and what gives you the
>right to act like this towards me. Ask the veterans on this group, I
>have NEVER avoided the negative issues on prohormones. It makes me sick
>to my stomach to be accused of being what you think i am.
A-fucking-greed. For better or for worse PA has always told the truth about
prohormones. Timmy Patterson and Victor Conte would have love to have everyone
believe that prohormones and dangerous and ineffective and that the only
alternative is some zma+tribex combo. I'm predicting test.net, with its fucked
up ads and agendas, will be just as hated hear as mm2k was a year or two ago.
Believe.
>PA
>
>
>
>
>
>
tmagdotcom