Dogs and EMTs
Ruth Ginzberg
CLUB GAZETTE. I am crossposing to both misc.emerg-services and
rec.pets.dogs in the hope of fostering cross-discussion between Emergency
service providers and dog owners. (reprinted w/o permission)
CALL FOR INFORMATION
How would your dog react if you were injured or became ill and
emergency medical technicians (EMTs) tried to help you? This question
has been raised by the teaching staff at the Department of Emergency
Medicine at East Carolina University in Greenville, NC. The department
is working to develop a standard protocol and training program for EMTs
and would like your input on the following questions:
o How do you think EMTs should control a protective dog that
interferes with their ability to provide emergency care to a
patient?
o How do you think dog owners should prepare for this potential
situation?
The article in the GAZETTE asks that readers please send their responses
to
Kathleen A Dunn, MD
Dept of Emergency Medicine
Brody 4W-54
East Carolina University
Greenville, NC 27858
I think it would also be interesting to see some on-line discussion of
this issue.
Richard A. De Castro
> CALL FOR INFORMATION
This can be a serious problem. My experiences as a Paramedic, when I had
to deal with a victim with their dog there, was to separate the dog from
the victim (if in a house, and the dog is small, put them in a different
room). If you can't separate the dog, and the dog is large and acting
protective, it can be a real problem.
A couuple of times, I muzzled the dog with a clove hitch of kerlix or
similar. Once, the dog was so large and aggressive (the biggest rottweiler
I've ever seen, about 150 lbs) that we had to call animal control, by the
time they got there the pt had died (very fine v-fib, and didn't respond).
Others I know have done things like chasing the dog off, with a CO2 fire extinguisher, tied them with ropes (bad idea), etc.
The best thing I think dog owners can do is to make sure that their
dogs have collars on, and can be secured by them. Towards the end of my
time as a medic, I had taken to keeping a choke chain in my bag-o-tricks.
.
--
============================================================================
deca...@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really!
Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly......
Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me,
I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT!
-Don't Tread On Me!-
============================================================================
David Colee
: interferes with their ability to provide emergency care to a
: patient?
: o How do you think dog owners should prepare for this potential
: situation?
As we all seem to have our own ways of dealing with these occurances, I'll
add my 2 cents worth here, too.
For the last 15 years, I've been carrying an extra old turnout coat on my
BLS engine with me. I used to do the macho (read: stupid) routine in
restraining and removing a non-friendly dog, but I gave it up, since I've
discovered that I'm not into pain. Now, I play bull fighter until I can
get close enough to cover the dogs head with the coat. Then I drag it away
to another area where we can contain it for a while. Usually, a note to
the owner gets the coat back a few days later. Occasionally, the coat is
even still in fair enough shape to be used again. Sometimes, however,
the dog vents it's displeasure by shredding the coat, which is fine by me
since it's the coat and not me getting ripped up. The Boss cooperates
with this too, by providing any of us whp ask for them with any old and
otherwise unusable gear he may have stored away.
The ones that get me, however, are the little 3 to 5 pound
bumble-bee-sized yap-yaps that you hear but ever see before they are
found hanging onto your pants leg. They seldom do any personal damage,
but it can be embarrasing to walk out someone's front door with their dog
hanging from your pants <G>!
BTW, just for reference, probably 75% of the dogs we encounter are
friendly, and most of the rest are handled by our PD's Animal Control
Officer. Just every once in a while do we have to do it the hard way,
I'm happy to say!
Keep safe!
David Colee, Lt, New Smyrna Beach (FL) FD
dco...@america.com
--
************************************************************************
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* Work (904) 424-2217 * CIS 71221,1673 *
* * Ham packet KD4TJF @ KB4T.#DABFL.FL.USA.NA *
Margaret F Riley
>RGIN...@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg) writes:
>
>> CALL FOR INFORMATION
>
>> How would your dog react if you were injured or became ill and
>> emergency medical technicians (EMTs) tried to help you? This question
>> has been raised by the teaching staff at the Department of Emergency
>> Medicine at East Carolina University in Greenville, NC. The department
>> is working to develop a standard protocol and training program for EMTs
>> and would like your input on the following questions:
>
>> o How do you think EMTs should control a protective dog that
>> interferes with their ability to provide emergency care to a
>> patient?
They need to restrain or remove the dog from the situation. As a couple
of folks have noted, these dogs are usually nervous themselves and just
trying to protect their owners. Someone suggested using an old turnout
coat and trying to cover the dog's head. I think that's a great idea.
Also sending in someone in full turnouts is probably good, but forget
the breather (snicker) and wear good gloves!
>> o How do you think dog owners should prepare for this potential
>> situation?
How can a dog owner prepare? Keep a collar on your dog, but a collar
on a heavily coated dog is hard to find if you aren't used to looking
for it in all that fur. You can't predict how your dog will react
in an emergency. It just can't be done. One good thing might be
to get those stickers for your windows indicating that you have a dog
in the house (sort of like those child-in-the-house stickers) so the
responding emergency personnel are forewarned.
>This can be a serious problem. My experiences as a Paramedic, when I had
>to deal with a victim with their dog there, was to separate the dog from
>the victim (if in a house, and the dog is small, put them in a different
>room). If you can't separate the dog, and the dog is large and acting
>protective, it can be a real problem.
This is a great suggestion. Now, to accomplish it. Try covering the
dog's head with a coat as someone suggested and then just muscling him
into the other room. If you have a couple of minutes to calm the
dog, you can try talking to him in a soothing voice, hands held low
with the palms down. I can understand if you don't have a few minutes.
>A couuple of times, I muzzled the dog with a clove hitch of kerlix or
>similar.
Okay, you were brave. If you can do this, great, but you still need
to separate him from his owner. (I own a Great Pyr, and I won't stick
my hands near the mouth of a dog I don't know.)
>Others I know have done things like chasing the dog off, with a CO2 fire
>extinguisher, tied them with ropes (bad idea), etc.
Chase him into another room and shut the door? If someone needed to
get into my house to help me, and Sieg wouldn't let them in, then I
approve of almost anything needed to secure him short of guns and
tranquilizers.
>The best thing I think dog owners can do is to make sure that their
>dogs have collars on, and can be secured by them. Towards the end of my
>time as a medic, I had taken to keeping a choke chain in my bag-o-tricks.
I would suggest this, maybe with a 6-ft. lead attached already. Slip it
over his head and drag him off. My dog wears a collar, but I defy you
to find it in all his fur. Another suggestion is if you spot a 6ft
lead with a loop for the hand, slip the other end of the leash
through the loop to make a loose choke, then slip this over his head.
You don't have to find a collar, but you can secure him and drag him
off to the other room.
Margaret Riley
mfr...@wpi.edu
Kyler Laird
>For the last 15 years, I've been carrying an extra old turnout coat on my
>BLS engine with me.
Is it just the expense (~$40) that keeps EMT's from carrying snares?
--kyler
joel.peshkin
In article <1994Sep5....@news.wesleyan.edu>, RGIN...@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg) writes:
|> o How do you think EMTs should control a protective dog that
|> interferes with their ability to provide emergency care to a
|> patient?
Ruth,
I grew up having had almost no contact with dogs aside from those that
run around loose on the street. Imagine what your impression of human
children would be like if the only ones you ever met were the ones that
run around unwatched at 2am. Every dog I met was threatening and every
one had some behavior problem.
In college, I had a few friends with well behaved, confident, good natured
dogs. These animals changed my expectation of their species and I found
myself getting along with dogs quite well (including my own 115 pound
"bundle of joy"). As a result, when I treat a patient and their dog is
present, a confrontation with the animal rarely occurs.
I have no doubt that I would have worse luck if I had not made friends
with dogs years ago. Bottom line, all emergency services personnel should
get comfortable enough with dogs to minimize the potential for confrontation.
-Joel Peshkin, Paramedic
j...@aloft.att.com
AGRAZ...@gallua.bitnet
what i'm curious about is how your ems providers or system deals with dogs
that are trained to assist individuals with a disability....this would include
seeing eye dogs for individuals who are blind, hearing ear dogs for deaf
people, and dogs that assist inviduals in wheelchairs or have other physical
conditions where mobility is impaired and a dog/monkey is used for mobility
assistance.
i've had experiences with both seeing eye dogs and hearing ear dogs...but
i'd like to hear from other folks and what their department does or what
their ems system's SOPs are.
thanks in advance
ann graziadei
initials and credentials available on request [G]
Francis A. Ney, Jr.
> >Others I know have done things like chasing the dog off, with a CO2 fire
> >extinguisher, tied them with ropes (bad idea), etc.
>
> Chase him into another room and shut the door? If someone needed to
> get into my house to help me, and Sieg wouldn't let them in, then I
> approve of almost anything needed to secure him short of guns and
> tranquilizers.
I remember sacrificing my lunch (a steak sandwhich) once to get a Husky into
another room...
I also remember my chief's face when I applied for reimbursement...
Frank Ney EMT-A N4ZHG LPVa NRA ILA GOA CCRKBA LEAA JPFO 'M-O-U-S-E'
--
"Apparently on New Texas, killing a politician was not _malum in se_, and was
_malum prohibitorum_ only to the extent that what the politician got was in
excess of what he deserved."
-H. Beam Piper, _Lone Star Planet/A Planet For Texans_
Bill Comella
>Bottom line, all emergency services personnel should
>get comfortable enough with dogs to minimize the potential for confrontation.
Agreed! I've been around dogs all my life and love them.... never had a problem
with any of them at a scene. It really IS true what they say, that dogs sense
your fear and discomfort. If you can approach a dog comfortably without
expressing either threat or fear you will have much better luck.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bill Comella, EMT-P | Henrietta Ambulance ALS
| Henrietta, New York
Internet: bi...@spiff.anes.rochester.edu | National Ambulance
Compuserve: 76660,2570 | Rochester, New York
< Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my employer(s) >
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Patricia W crowe
point out that whether a dog gets really aggressive, merely wary, somewhat
reserved, or friendly depends very much on the attitude of the stranger.
If strangers yell, order, come after with strange objects, the dog may
show its teeth. If the stranger cajols, sweet-talks, offers treats and does
not stare rudely at the dog, the dog may be quite nice. I've had situations
where men tried to dominate the dog and ended up having to freeze while a
soft spoken woman making sweet talk got no resistance at all--for example
at vets, groomers, after catching a burglar when police came, etc.
Ruth Ginzberg
Joel Peshkin wrote:
>Bottom line, all emergency services personnel should
>get comfortable enough with dogs to minimize the potential for confrontation.
Bill Comella writes:
> Agreed! I've been around dogs all my life and love them.... never had a problem
> with any of them at a scene. It really IS true what they say, that dogs sense
> your fear and discomfort. If you can approach a dog comfortably without
> expressing either threat or fear you will have much better luck.
I think that is interesting. As a dog owner (and an assistant trainer) I
am less confident of that. I know that many dogs can get *VERY*
protective of their "territory" (home, car, boat, etc) and of their
owner. While some *might* be able to sense that their owner is
injured/ill and that the EMT is trying to help, I think that others might
sense that their owner is ill/injured and their instincts will be
telling them to protect the owner from that stranger who is "invading"
the territory.
It might not hurt for EMTs to have a leash, collar, and some pup-peroni
(or other wrapped treat) stashed somewhere in case of a very protective
pup. I think that all dog owners need to teach their dogs to be calm
around strangers, even strangers who come to the house or who open the
car door, etc. I *know* some people think that having a nasty dog will
protect them from crime, but I think a *friendly* dog who barks on
command (when you hear a strange sound, signal your dog to bark) will
accomplish as much in terms of protection. I'd hate for myself or a
member of my family to be prevented from having emergency medical
attention by a dog who thought he was "protecting" us from the EMTs.
Steven Abrams
(Patricia W crowe) writes:
> this sounds like a great idea. As a German Shep. owner, I just want to
> point out that whether a dog gets really aggressive, merely wary, somewhat
> reserved, or friendly depends very much on the attitude of the stranger.
> If strangers yell, order, come after with strange objects, the dog may
> show its teeth.
I'm trying to picture an EMT team responding to an emergency without
giving orders and rushing in with strange objects. Of course, if a
dog is familiar with an EKG unit, stretcher, etc., I'm sure he'll be
fine.
> If the stranger cajols, sweet-talks, offers treats and does
> not stare rudely at the dog, the dog may be quite nice.
However, the patient, in cardiac arrest or shock, might not make it.
I think the coat idea is a good one!
~~~Steve
--
/*************************************************
*
*Steven Abrams abr...@cs.columbia.edu
*
**************************************************/
INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY = Interactive Network For Organizing,
Retrieving, Manipulating, Accessing, and Transferring Information On
National Systems, Unleashing Practically Every Rebellious Human
Intelligence, Gratifying Hackers, And Yahoos. -- Kevin Kwaku.
Jay Maynard
Steven Abrams <abr...@tune.cs.columbia.edu> wrote:
>> If the stranger cajols, sweet-talks, offers treats and does
>> not stare rudely at the dog, the dog may be quite nice.
>However, the patient, in cardiac arrest or shock, might not make it.
I don't think anyone's advocating not giving proper patient care in
preference to making friends with the patient's dog...but, OTOH, it's only
15-20 seconds worth, and there are very few calls where there aren't lulls
in the action that last that long.
--
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmay...@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu | adequately be explained by stupidity.
The US Constitution: 1789-1994. RIP.
Cindy Tittle Moore
>In article <PWC.94Se...@world.std.com> p...@world.std.com
>(Patricia W crowe) writes:
>> this sounds like a great idea. As a German Shep. owner, I just want to
>> point out that whether a dog gets really aggressive, merely wary, somewhat
>> reserved, or friendly depends very much on the attitude of the stranger.
>> If strangers yell, order, come after with strange objects, the dog may
>> show its teeth.
>I'm trying to picture an EMT team responding to an emergency without
>giving orders and rushing in with strange objects. Of course, if a
>dog is familiar with an EKG unit, stretcher, etc., I'm sure he'll be
>fine.
As an aside, I know you wrote this rhetorically, but Hershe has actually
been exposed to this kind of activity (she comes along on earthquake
drills and gets to hunt for bodies). She loves it! She'll sit there
watching people lug around all their stuff and waggle her tail! She
likes the oxygen masks for some reason...
--Cindy
--
_________________________Cindy Tittle Moore___________________________________
Internet: tit...@netcom.com USmail: PO Box 4188, Irvine CA, 92716
Christy Hill
A few weeks ago, I attended Assistance Dogs International and the
International Association of Assistance Dog Partners.. One of the topics
that came up where to educate emergency staff in dealing with assistance
dogs (hearing dogs, guide dogs and service dogs). Several of these dogs
have stayed with their owners while they were in the hospital and are
allowed to be with their owner legally while they stay at a hopsital
excpet for places like ICU (depends on the situation), allergy wards,
operating rooms etc.
The main concern is what happens to these dogs and how are they
treated? Will the dog be able to accompany their pertner? If not, will
they be cared for properly? The relationship between an assistance dog
and their human partner is much more than a pet relationsihp. The dog is
their ears, or eyes, or arms, their link between communicating with their
environment, and these dogs go "everywhere" with their partner (store,
restaurant, work, etc.). No spouse and no children
are with someone as much as an assistance dog is with their partner.
I'm curious if any of you have come across an assistance dog?
Can you recognize an assistance dog? SUggestions
have been
made to put a sticker on ther refridgerator or someplace. SOme thought
of a window, but some didn't like this idea because it would be
advertising to burglers that a disabled person (= weak) lives here. Any
suggestions?
Take Care,
Christy
--
Take Care,
Christy
AGRAZ...@gallua.bitnet
for seeing eye dogs, hearing ear dogs, or dogs/monkeys that are trained
to assist individuals with physical disabilities [in a wheelchair/walker/
crutches/non-ambulatory]
i've had to deal with seeing eye dogs and hearing ear dogs in my day to
day job. was wondering about others of you who have dealt with this or
if your department has a procedure outlined in these situations.
thanks in advance.
ann graziadei
just another list memeber with lots of initials after her name
burke [va] volunteer fire and rescue
Christy Hill
name and I did....look.....if this isn't the proper way, please let me
know. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.
------all text cut out-------
: Take Care,
: Christy
: --
Take care,
Christy Hill
persons.
Ok, now I see what a signature means in the internet world, I
thought I only had to write my name.
so you folks know who I am :)
Christy Hill
(car...@rain.org)
--
Take Care,
Christy
(car...@rain.org)
Kyler Laird
> Ok, I got it now. I hope that you can be tolerant of new
>persons.
I hope you can be tolerant of people who unnecessarily give new
people grief.
> Ok, now I see what a signature means in the internet world, I
>thought I only had to write my name.
That's what I've been doing for the last few years.
> so you folks know who I am :)
Anyone with half a brain (not necessarily everyone here) can just
check the heading information of your post and find out who you
are unless you do something insidious to hide it.
Don't sweat the signature. Some people just have a taste for
bandwidth. (You ASCII artists know who I mean!)
--kyler
P.S. I'm posting this instead of e-mailing it because I want to
publicly chastise anyone who caused Christy problems. I don't
wish to be lumped in with the morons who have been recklessly
posting personal stuff (along with complete copies of original
posts).
Steven Abrams
Tittle Moore) writes:
> As an aside, I know you wrote this rhetorically, but Hershe has actually
> been exposed to this kind of activity (she comes along on earthquake
> drills and gets to hunt for bodies). She loves it! She'll sit there
> watching people lug around all their stuff and waggle her tail! She
> likes the oxygen masks for some reason...
Very interesting! I guess SAR dogs are more used to people running
around in a state of controlled pandemonium handling an emergency
situation. I had to laugh at the phrase "gets to hunt for bodies."
As in, "Oh BOY, mommy... INJURED PEOPLE!! YEAH!!!" ;-)
I know you've got to make the whole SAR thing like a game for her so
she'll do it enthusiastically... it's just a funny way of thinking
about a disaster!
BCFD #36
cats in a structure and one crispy cat in a cage in a car... not very pleasant
for us or the cat) but some interesting encounters.
One was being very protective of an owner who had expired several days
previous. He was pronounced dead from outside the house. The dog wouldn't let
us in, so we turned it over to the sheriff and Coroner. I hope they had BA's.
The second that comes to mind was what came in as a "difficulty breathing."
We get to the house which has a low chain-link fence around it. As I stop to
open the gate, I am met by a dinosaur sized Rottwiler. He's bounding around and
being very frisky. One of our braver souls walked by me and proceeded on in.
Since he was not torn to shreds I followed on in. I was carrying our trauma box
in one hand and the other was free. The dog-o-saruas runs up to me, sniffs my
free hand and proceeds to take it in his mouth. Didn't bite down, just kept it
secure. After a few steps he let go and did the whole thing again. After a few
more steps I was rescued by a helpful neighbor. It ended up the guy was in the
middle of having a stroke. His other two dogs were getting a little excited so
we locked them in a back room.
I counted my fingers twice after we left and checked my underwear.
This beast was big enough that if he had shown his contempt like the Chow did
in a previous post, we would have had a HAZMAT incident.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dave Scruggs | GTE Government Systems | Boulder Creek Fire Dept |
| | Mtn. View CA. | Boulder Creek CA |
| | ~SMTS III | EMT-1A, EMT-D |
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~Senior Master of Technical Stuff