Schools and Christmas
Beth Clarkson
> Beth Clarkson wrote:
> > I wasn't equating them. I asked why is okay to sing a Hannakuh song
> > (Jewish religion) but not "Silent Night" (Christian religion). The
> > original poster said that her child's school had had one Hannakuh song
> > (She didn't say which one) and ther rest of the program was all
> > secular Christmas songs. I asked the question that if it's okay to
> > sing a Jewish Song in a public school program, why isn't it okay to
> > sing a Christian song?
> >
> I think my discomfort was with the fact that the Hannukah song (which wasn't
> sung, BTW, but played by the band with no lyrics, which is part of the
> reason I can't remember what they called it) was such an obvious, token
> offering in the context. It wasn't *just* all the Christmas-related songs in
> the program, but the fact that my son has been bringing home
> Christmas-related class projects all month (photocopied _Rudolph_ book along
> with many other Christmas-themed books and papers, a pine cone painted green
> and decorated like a Christmas tree, and so on). NOTHING came home with a
> menorah on it during the same period. Top that with the _Christmas Cookies_
> play the kindergartners gave for us the day after the school-wide concert
> and the Christmas-themed gift from their teacher (a paper stocking with a
> book inside it), and I just get an overall impression of Christmas being
> treated (in his classroom, if not by the school at large) as a holiday that
> EVERYONE celebrates.
>
> Now, I grant that Hannukah is a fairly minor religioius festival for Jews,
> so perhaps it doesn't deserve more than passing mention. I doubt, however,
> that I'll be seeing books about fasting at Yom Kippur or ones with matzos
> come Passover (when, instead, I'm pretty sure I'll be seeing bunnies and
> eggs)! And that's *just* addressing the Jewish traditions they're leaving
> out. What Muslims, Hundus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and staunch atheists?
>
> I understand what you're saying about how restrictive things are now in
> public schools,
Thanks. That's my main point. It never seems like any one person is
asking for all that much, but across our society, it adds up to some
serious restrictions on what people are allowed to say and do. (Saw a
comic on TV the other day that said that our political correctness had
resulted in a society wherein public speech was more restricted than
in Stalinist Russia. He's exaggerating, but the attitudes promoted in
this thread are certainly cut from the same cloth.)
When you're dealing with public schools, you're placing those
restrictions on children too young to judge for themselves when and
what is appropriate and impressionable enough to pick up on a lot of
unspoken stuff that's going on. That's why the objections to the
Christmas celebrations, of course, but it makes things very very
difficult for the people who actually have to get all the teachers and
children in their schools to obey all those restrictions.
> and I have to admit to some inconsistency in my views.
We all have some inconsistencies in our views. The important thing is
to recognize them. That way, maybe someday you'll work out a
different, more consistent approach. When the inconsistencies go
unrecognized, they are never resolved.
> I
> have, for example, no problem with the public schools teaching children the
> theory of evolution but NOT the theory of Biblical creationism; I think
> one's science and one's religion. Even so, the theory of evolution *does*
> conflict with some people's religious beliefs and, for that reason, they
> don't want their children learning it. So I'm left puzzling over how to
> respect everyone while still providing children with a comprehensive
> education. It's a sticky wicket, I know.
A sticky wicket indeed. For my views on that particular matter, you
can go to http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-05-09-02.htm The
irascible professor was kind enough to webpublish an essay I wrote on
it.
> Notwithstanding, I'm uncomfortable with what I think is *undue* attention
> paid to major holidays with Christian ties (Christmas and Easter topping the
> list) and little or no attention paid to major holidays with ties to other
> religious traditions. I wouldn't object to one or two little books with
> Christmas trees in them at Christmas time if my child also came home with a
> book about lighting the menorah and another about fasting for Ramadan and so
> on. It would just be more evenhanded and therefore, I think, less likely to
> leave the majority of children (who probably *do* celebrate Christmas) with
> the impression that EVERYONE ELSE also celebrates it.
Well, there are basically three routes the schools can take. They can
try to celebrate all possible holidays (impractical and offensive to
many). They can pick a few of the most popular - which is basically
what they are doing now and complaints about that is what generated
this thread. Or they can celebrate none at all.
It is this last option, advocated by a number of people here that I
usually find quite sane and sensible, that I find so disturbing. If
you are not going to allow Christmas celebrations in school, what
other holiday would be worth celebrating? Christmas is absolutely the
major holiday celebration for the majority of people in our country.
It's a Federal holiday. Schools are out of session for more than a
week. Calling it "Winter Festival" or some other name doesn't change
a thing. If we aren't going to allow public schools to make a big deal
out of Christmas, there's no other holiday that deserves it more.
What bothers me about the attitude of "Kids waste enough time in
school as it is" and "The schools should be teaching academics, not
celebrating holidays regardless of their origins" is the fact that our
public schools are already causing far too many children to hate
school and learning. There are lots of reasons for this; I don't feel
it necessary to detail them in this post. (If you're interested, John
Holt's books have a lot of relevant observations in that regard.) But
one reason that schools are such unpleasant places for children is
this attitude, espoused by people who seem to have sound reasoning
capabilities and genuinely care about children and providing a good
education for the children of our society. The end result is that
things like recess and holiday celebrations will disappear from our
public schools. Too many problems encountered and administrators just
hate having to deal with all the hassles.
The reason our family choose to homeschool was because more than
anything else, we wanted our children to be educated in such a way
that they would always love learning and take joy in it. If they have
that attitude, they will find a way to educate themselves. I'm quite
pleased to report that so far it's worked quite well.
Schools today extinguish that spark in far too many children.
Insisting that our public schools never teach children anything that
might possibly offend anyone is part and parcel of making schools so
stultifyingly dull for so many children.
At any rate, the objections to Christmas celebrations that people have
voiced in this thread are legimate. But we cannot resolve the problem
without either A) eliminating any and all Christmas celebrations from
our schools or B) allowing people the freedom to choose their
children's schools from among a much wider array of possibilities.
Since I think option A will make the education we provide the children
of our society even worse overall, you have provided me with yet
another reason to continue with my support for vouchers. If we can't
make everybody happy with the same approach (and we can't), perhaps we
could reformulate our system of funding education so that everyone has
more options and can choose the one that's right for them.
Beth Clarkson
Ericka Kammerer
> Well, there are basically three routes the schools can take. They can
> try to celebrate all possible holidays (impractical and offensive to
> many). They can pick a few of the most popular - which is basically
> what they are doing now and complaints about that is what generated
> this thread. Or they can celebrate none at all.
>
> It is this last option, advocated by a number of people here that I
> usually find quite sane and sensible, that I find so disturbing. If
> you are not going to allow Christmas celebrations in school, what
> other holiday would be worth celebrating? Christmas is absolutely the
> major holiday celebration for the majority of people in our country.
> It's a Federal holiday. Schools are out of session for more than a
> week. Calling it "Winter Festival" or some other name doesn't change
> a thing. If we aren't going to allow public schools to make a big deal
> out of Christmas, there's no other holiday that deserves it more.
Really? It's more important to celebrate a holiday that
some children are forbidden by their religion to participate in
than it is to celebrate, say, Independence Day which honors
the founding of our country, or President's Day, which honors
our leaders (even though I think how President's Day was
constructed is a bit odd)? It seems to me that there are
plenty of holidays that *everyone* agrees are entirely
secular, that are lots of fun, and full of educational
opportunities.
> What bothers me about the attitude of "Kids waste enough time in
> school as it is" and "The schools should be teaching academics, not
> celebrating holidays regardless of their origins" is the fact that our
> public schools are already causing far too many children to hate
> school and learning. There are lots of reasons for this; I don't feel
> it necessary to detail them in this post. (If you're interested, John
> Holt's books have a lot of relevant observations in that regard.) But
> one reason that schools are such unpleasant places for children is
> this attitude, espoused by people who seem to have sound reasoning
> capabilities and genuinely care about children and providing a good
> education for the children of our society. The end result is that
> things like recess and holiday celebrations will disappear from our
> public schools. Too many problems encountered and administrators just
> hate having to deal with all the hassles.
Do you really believe that celebrating Christmas is
what makes school fun for kids? It seems to me that there are
*endless* ways to make school fun and interesting without
resorting to things that leave out some children. I am every
bit as concerned with the notion that school should be nothing
but reading, writing and 'rithmetic. Kids need recess and the
arts and all manner of other "extras" in order to become well-
rounded individuals. But I don't think they need extra
holiday celebrating for that. Millions of kids won't ever get
any musical education if it doesn't come from the schools, but
I'll bet every kid in every family who celebrates Christmas will
get plenty of Christmas celebrating in even if the schools back
out of that "duty".
Best wishes,
Ericka
Darlene Sue Marquardt
I teach music and my district has adopted a certain major brand textbook
(silver Burdett ) and my philosophy about which songs I teach is that if it
is in the district adopted book, I can teach the song. ... and there are
"Christmas" songs in it. When we do our holiday program.. I call it a
holiday program but we sing "Christmas" and winter music (jingle bells..
frosty the snowman.. neither of which mention Christmas anywhere).. THAT is
what the community expects.. I'd hear it if I DIDN'T do that..
So I think it depends somewhat on the community and the traditions and
expectations.. ... you can't just lump it all into a "the schools should or
shouldn't do such and such.. " because it just won't work that way.. you
have to know your community .
When I lived in a large community .. with multi-cultures in the school.. my
principal basically had me hit both Christmas and Hanukah as well as
winter.. and kind of lean very much toward the secular with the Christmas
songs.. (in other words do Santa songs etc.. but not so much traditional
carols).. it worked..
Of course when I was teaching in private school it worked opposite.. I left
out the santa ones and did only the religious ones.. ... like i said you
have to know your community.
--
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"Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3E0B7773...@comcast.net...
Beth Clarkson
>
>
> > Well, there are basically three routes the schools can take. They can
> > try to celebrate all possible holidays (impractical and offensive to
> > many). They can pick a few of the most popular - which is basically
> > what they are doing now and complaints about that is what generated
> > this thread. Or they can celebrate none at all.
> >
> > It is this last option, advocated by a number of people here that I
> > usually find quite sane and sensible, that I find so disturbing. If
> > you are not going to allow Christmas celebrations in school, what
> > other holiday would be worth celebrating? Christmas is absolutely the
> > major holiday celebration for the majority of people in our country.
> > It's a Federal holiday. Schools are out of session for more than a
> > week. Calling it "Winter Festival" or some other name doesn't change
> > a thing. If we aren't going to allow public schools to make a big deal
> > out of Christmas, there's no other holiday that deserves it more.
>
>
> Really? It's more important to celebrate a holiday that
> some children are forbidden by their religion to participate in
> than it is to celebrate, say, Independence Day which honors
> the founding of our country, or President's Day, which honors
> our leaders (even though I think how President's Day was
> constructed is a bit odd)?
Since school isn't in session during Independence Day, that's a moot
point. Be an interesting discussion if we ever go to universal
year-round schools.
> It seems to me that there are
> plenty of holidays that *everyone* agrees are entirely
> secular, that are lots of fun, and full of educational
> opportunities.
Really? Care to name a few? I'd be interested to here what popular
holidays fit that description. Earth Day perhaps? Nope. Believe it
or not, there are people opposed to that holiday, feel that it
promotes a belief system that conflicts with their religion.
> > What bothers me about the attitude of "Kids waste enough time in
> > school as it is" and "The schools should be teaching academics, not
> > celebrating holidays regardless of their origins" is the fact that our
> > public schools are already causing far too many children to hate
> > school and learning. There are lots of reasons for this; I don't feel
> > it necessary to detail them in this post. (If you're interested, John
> > Holt's books have a lot of relevant observations in that regard.) But
> > one reason that schools are such unpleasant places for children is
> > this attitude, espoused by people who seem to have sound reasoning
> > capabilities and genuinely care about children and providing a good
> > education for the children of our society. The end result is that
> > things like recess and holiday celebrations will disappear from our
> > public schools. Too many problems encountered and administrators just
> > hate having to deal with all the hassles.
>
>
> Do you really believe that celebrating Christmas is
> what makes school fun for kids?
No, I didn't say that and I don't believe it. That's a straw man
reconstruction of my argument. The point I'm making is that such
activities are always controversial to some extent and that there are
people who will object to any such activity as being unimportant to
the function of school. They can be right for any isolated activity,
but the whole approach ends up with schools having a disdain for 'fun'
and such considerations take second place when making policy
decisions. In my opinion, the amount of fun that child get from an
activity makes it more valuable as an educational technique and
therefore, such considerations should not be relegated to being
secondary to whether or not some one is going to be offended or made
uncomfortable by the activity.
> It seems to me that there are
> *endless* ways to make school fun and interesting without
> resorting to things that leave out some children.
Sure there are. But there are also plenty that not everyone can
participate in. Should we nix drama just because not everyone gets to
play a part on stage? That some children are left out is not, by
itself, sufficient justification for suggesting cancelling or subduing
an activity that many enjoy.
> I am every
> bit as concerned with the notion that school should be nothing
> but reading, writing and 'rithmetic. Kids need recess and the
> arts and all manner of other "extras" in order to become well-
> rounded individuals.
While you give lip service to those concepts, you are probably more
convincing to yourself than to me. I think that what you are
advocating will move our educational system to one that's even more
repressive and stultifying than the one we have now. Personally, I
oppose such efforts. If that's what you want for your kids, fine. I
support vouchers and would support you being able to place your kid in
such a schoool. But I don't think you should try to impose it on
others who disagree with your political opinions.
> But I don't think they need extra
> holiday celebrating for that.
What "extra" celebrating are you talking about? A school program for
parents where they sing a few songs and put on a play? What's wrong
with that? You don't like that it's about Christmas? Other people
do. Why not allow them to have the celebration they want for their
kids in their schools?
Beth Clarkson
Leah Adezio
Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote in message
news:e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com...
> Sure there are. But there are also plenty that not everyone can
> participate in. Should we nix drama just because not everyone gets to
> play a part on stage? That some children are left out is not, by
> itself, sufficient justification for suggesting cancelling or subduing
> an activity that many enjoy.
In my son's school, the school musical is a *voluntary* activity. He does
not *choose* to participate in it. It is *his choice* because it is not
mandated that he participate....and the school musical is not part of the
overall curriculum.
>
> What "extra" celebrating are you talking about? A school program for
> parents where they sing a few songs and put on a play? What's wrong
> with that? You don't like that it's about Christmas? Other people
> do. Why not allow them to have the celebration they want for their
> kids in their schools?
Because in many schools, these are either *not* voluntary activities (i.e.,
the entire class participates) or, in the instance of band or chorus, the
selection of music is not something the musician can opt out of on a case by
case basis (though in chorus, I suppose, one could either mouth the words
and not actually sing, but in band, it's kind of noticable if the only
baritone sax player isn't playing their part). And in the case of Christmas
parties in the classroom, it's not like some kids can say to the teacher
'Teach me during party time because a Christmas party is against my
beliefs'? And how many *young* kids have the maturity not to feel bad
when they might be the only kid in class who isn't giving Christmas cards?
And don't think the other kids *don't* notice.
Let them have the celebration they want -- but in their homes, where it
belongs.
And as to the 'other people do...why not let them have the celebration
*they* want for their kids in schools'....well, it's not All About Them.
Not in a *public* school paid for with *public* dollars....and if there are
parents who will not let their children participate because it is against
their beliefs, then either their rights need to be respected or you end up
creating an environment where there is a clear sense of 'other'...and
especially in elementary school, the 'other' often becomes 'the outcast'.
And it's not fair to the 'minority' students who *do* like to sing and *do*
have talent to be denied the opportunity to grow creatively because the
programming chosen isn't appropriate for them.
Public schools are, to the best of their ability, supposed to attempt to
meet the needs of all students, not just *some* or even *most* of the
students.
Our grade school in our old town gave up religiously oriented programming a
number of years ago and opted instead for a 'Winter Concert' which
celebrated *winter* (a little harder to do in warmer climes, I would think,
but not impossible). Songs about snow, sledding, ice skating.....lots of
giant paper snowflakes decorating the multi-purpose room, along with huge
snowpeople and murals of children enjoying winter activities (both indoors
and out -- things depicted also included children reading books by a
fireplace and watching snow fall from a window). And you know what? No one
complained about the lack of Christmas songs. No one complained about the
lack of the token Chanukkah song. No one felt uncomfortable, or had to
exclude their child from participating.
(And, FWIW, the most popular event in school that year was a huge
Multi-Cultural Fair and Festival -- each class took a different country and
had a booth for it, including performances of songs, dances, skits.....food,
crafts, diaramas and more. The high school's multi-cultural club mentored
the younger kids and everyone got something positive out of it.)
I wonder how you would feel if your public school was 80% Muslim and your
child had to participate in a Ramadan Concert and sang songs praising Allah
as being the One True God? And how do you think your child would feel
around his or her peers if you pulled your child out of the program because
you 'don't do Ramadan'...and worse yet, if other children started picking on
your child *because* they were 'different'?
Leah
Banty
>
>
>Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote in message
>news:e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com...
>
>> Sure there are. But there are also plenty that not everyone can
>> participate in. Should we nix drama just because not everyone gets to
>> play a part on stage? That some children are left out is not, by
>> itself, sufficient justification for suggesting cancelling or subduing
>> an activity that many enjoy.
>
>In my son's school, the school musical is a *voluntary* activity. He does
>not *choose* to participate in it. It is *his choice* because it is not
>mandated that he participate....and the school musical is not part of the
>overall curriculum.
But if chorus is the kewlist thing going (well, chorus usually isn't, but the
dillemma definitely applies to *team sports*), his not choosing to participate
can single him out and/or give him lower status.
BTW - in my son's school he *has* to do chorus (which he hates) as well as band
or orchestra.
>
>>
>> What "extra" celebrating are you talking about? A school program for
>> parents where they sing a few songs and put on a play? What's wrong
>> with that? You don't like that it's about Christmas? Other people
>> do. Why not allow them to have the celebration they want for their
>> kids in their schools?
>
>Because in many schools, these are either *not* voluntary activities (i.e.,
>the entire class participates) or, in the instance of band or chorus, the
>selection of music is not something the musician can opt out of on a case by
>case basis (though in chorus, I suppose, one could either mouth the words
>and not actually sing, but in band, it's kind of noticable if the only
>baritone sax player isn't playing their part). And in the case of Christmas
>parties in the classroom, it's not like some kids can say to the teacher
>'Teach me during party time because a Christmas party is against my
>beliefs'? And how many *young* kids have the maturity not to feel bad
>when they might be the only kid in class who isn't giving Christmas cards?
>And don't think the other kids *don't* notice.
>
>Let them have the celebration they want -- but in their homes, where it
>belongs.
Christmas is a very public celebration of decoration, lights, and good wishes.
It does not stay stuffed in homes as some folks here would like.
Woudl you ask the people of Rio De Janero to kindly keep their noisy Mardi Gras
in their homes, have little samba lines with the grandparents and be done with
it? Hope not.
You have to consider the nature of the festival.
>
>I wonder how you would feel if your public school was 80% Muslim and your
>child had to participate in a Ramadan Concert and sang songs praising Allah
>as being the One True God? And how do you think your child would feel
>around his or her peers if you pulled your child out of the program because
>you 'don't do Ramadan'...and worse yet, if other children started picking on
>your child *because* they were 'different'?
Oh, here we go with the bogeyman argument. Two years ago such scenarios in
these December Dillemma discussions invoked Pagan teachers and Pentagrams.
Now for some reason they invoke Ramadan and crescent moons (not you, but another
participant in another similar recent discussion brought up crescent moon
decorations - same thing - the bogeyman of a Muslim classroom). Why is that so?
Gee, whiz - wha' happened? Leah - I find this playing on perceived prejudices
and fears of your readers absolutely reprehensible.
But I'll answer anyway. In that case, I'd have judicial recourse against the
clearly religious content. I'd be happy to have my child participate in some
aspects, such as the Id al Fitr celebration. As far as being in a minority -
I'm a non-Christian *NOW* who has had to coach my son on how to respond to being
asked on the bus "so - you don't beleive in god - huh!" We are also a visibly
non-traditional family in other ways. I'd deal with being in a minority the way
all minorities deal constructively with their situation, which is to build pride
in one's *own* traditions while equipping our children to deal with the wider
world.
Banty (well, at least it's been a change from witches and Satan-praising and
pentagram crafts in the classroom..)
Sharon Fitzgerald
> As far as being in a minority -
> I'm a non-Christian *NOW* who has had to coach my son on how to respond to being
> asked on the bus "so - you don't beleive in god - huh!"
Unfortunately, despite my admonitions to my girls to not discuss
religion with their classmates, it comes up fairly often. Since
virtually ever other kid here believes in god (and talks about it
frequently!), its important that my girls have something to say that
doesn't alientate them from the crowd and makes them feel good.
I now tell them that they should say its wrong to discuss god at school
(because its secular) and that it doesn't matter what people believe...
it just matters if they are nice.
But if someone is trying to make them feel bad about not believing in
god (which has happened on more than one occasion), they should say they
(meaning my girls) are lucky that they have the freedom to choose or not
choose whether they believe in god and the other kids don't have that
luxury but are *told* what to believe.
Anyway, that's how I've been handling it. I expect this problem to all
but evaporate once we leave Puerto Rico.
sharon, momma to savannah and willow (11/11/94)
Matt C
news:e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com:
> Really? Care to name a few? I'd be interested to here what popular
> holidays fit that description. Earth Day perhaps? Nope. Believe it
> or not, there are people opposed to that holiday, feel that it
> promotes a belief system that conflicts with their religion.
Or it promotes a religion that conflicts with their belief system. :)
Matt
Sharon Fitzgerald
I suspect you are being devil's advocate here but I seriously doubt
anyone truly believes there is one iota of religious content in Earth
Day.
sharon
Banty
>
>Banty wrote:
>> As far as being in a minority -
>>I'm a non-Christian *NOW* who has had to coach my son on how to respond to being
>> asked on the bus "so - you don't beleive in god - huh!"
>
>Unfortunately, despite my admonitions to my girls to not discuss
>religion with their classmates, it comes up fairly often. Since
>virtually ever other kid here believes in god (and talks about it
>frequently!), its important that my girls have something to say that
>doesn't alientate them from the crowd and makes them feel good.
>
>I now tell them that they should say its wrong to discuss god at school
>(because its secular) and that it doesn't matter what people believe...
>it just matters if they are nice.
>
>But if someone is trying to make them feel bad about not believing in
>god (which has happened on more than one occasion), they should say they
>(meaning my girls) are lucky that they have the freedom to choose or not
>choose whether they believe in god and the other kids don't have that
>luxury but are *told* what to believe.
That's a *great* idea. Several great ideas. Thanks!
>
>Anyway, that's how I've been handling it. I expect this problem to all
>but evaporate once we leave Puerto Rico.
Oh, it won't completely go away. I'm not in the Bible Belt either - I'm in
upstate New York.
Banty
Banty
Don't wave that off! Remember, the Bible gave Man dominion over the Earth.
Of course, then you could consider Earth day as something like Sadie Hawkins Day
:-)
Banty
Sharon Fitzgerald
Banty wrote:
>
> In article <3E0C4E5D...@attglobal.net>, Sharon says...
> >
> >Banty wrote:
> >> As far as being in a minority -
> >>I'm a non-Christian *NOW* who has had to coach my son on how to respond to being
> >> asked on the bus "so - you don't beleive in god - huh!"
> >
> >Unfortunately, despite my admonitions to my girls to not discuss
> >religion with their classmates, it comes up fairly often. Since
> >virtually ever other kid here believes in god (and talks about it
> >frequently!), its important that my girls have something to say that
> >doesn't alientate them from the crowd and makes them feel good.
> >
> >I now tell them that they should say its wrong to discuss god at school
> >(because its secular) and that it doesn't matter what people believe...
> >it just matters if they are nice.
> >
> >But if someone is trying to make them feel bad about not believing in
> >god (which has happened on more than one occasion), they should say they
> >(meaning my girls) are lucky that they have the freedom to choose or not
> >choose whether they believe in god and the other kids don't have that
> >luxury but are *told* what to believe.
>
> That's a *great* idea. Several great ideas. Thanks!
You're welcome. And I suspect these approaches would work even better
with older kids which your are, si?
> >Anyway, that's how I've been handling it. I expect this problem to all
> >but evaporate once we leave Puerto Rico.
>
> Oh, it won't completely go away. I'm not in the Bible Belt either - I'm in
> upstate New York.
Yikes. This surprises me. I think back to my grade school days in
Queens NYC and I can't recall ANYONE discussing religion in any way,
shape, or form. So I just chalked it up to another PR-specific problem
but I guess its not that simple. Well my DH is interviewing for a job
in Calgary, Alberta. Perhaps he'll take that and things won't be quite
so "monolithic" as they are here in PR.
Ericka Kammerer
> So I think it depends somewhat on the community and the traditions and
> expectations.. ... you can't just lump it all into a "the schools should or
> shouldn't do such and such.. " because it just won't work that way.. you
> have to know your community .
I'll agree that's true to an extent, but there's an
issue of just how well people *do* know their community.
Lots and lots of people make assumptions that are not
true. We live in a very diverse community, which is pretty
much obvious to everyone. If I went and polled the teachers
in each of the classrooms at my sons' school and asked the
teachers how many of their students were Christian, I'll
bet that the vast majority of teachers would overestimate
the number of Christian students. People tend to default
to assuming someone belongs to a majority position unless
they have some kind of evidence to the contrary, and not
all people choose to make a public issue of the religion
they belong to. In fact, since 9/11 around here (near
DC), a lot of Muslim kids have been quite motivated to
play down the fact that they're Muslim. And really, I
think people should be able to go to school without
making a fuss over what religion they are *and* without
having to be inundated with celebrating a holiday they
don't celebrate. A bit here or there, a secular song
or two out of many at a concert, etc. is probably not a
bit deal. Spending the whole month of December with
nearly every activity Christmas-related is, I think,
an imposition that we don't need.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<3E0B7773...@comcast.net>...
>> Really? It's more important to celebrate a holiday that
>>some children are forbidden by their religion to participate in
>>than it is to celebrate, say, Independence Day which honors
>>the founding of our country, or President's Day, which honors
>>our leaders (even though I think how President's Day was
>>constructed is a bit odd)?
>
> Since school isn't in session during Independence Day, that's a moot
> point. Be an interesting discussion if we ever go to universal
> year-round schools.
They do celebrate President's Day at our schools, and
they make a pretty big fuss over it, including a party, and
the kids seem to find it quite fun. Personally, I think
our school is a bit party-happy, which gets old (especially
since it seems like I usually only get one or two days'
notice to cough up goodies or rearrange my schedule to
attend or help out), but they certainly find lots of
opportunities to celebrate things and have fun.
>>It seems to me that there are
>>plenty of holidays that *everyone* agrees are entirely
>>secular, that are lots of fun, and full of educational
>>opportunities.
>
> Really? Care to name a few? I'd be interested to here what popular
> holidays fit that description. Earth Day perhaps? Nope. Believe it
> or not, there are people opposed to that holiday, feel that it
> promotes a belief system that conflicts with their religion.
Our schools do all the patriotic holidays (and make
a big deal over them) plus a lot of school specific holidays
where they celebrate school spirit or school accomplishments.
(They also do the winter holiday roundup, which I think is
inappropriate given that they *don't* then hit the major
holidays of other religions that are only celebrating minor
holidays near Christmas--so much for real diversity.)
>> Do you really believe that celebrating Christmas is
>>what makes school fun for kids?
>
> No, I didn't say that and I don't believe it. That's a straw man
> reconstruction of my argument. The point I'm making is that such
> activities are always controversial to some extent and that there are
> people who will object to any such activity as being unimportant to
> the function of school. They can be right for any isolated activity,
> but the whole approach ends up with schools having a disdain for 'fun'
> and such considerations take second place when making policy
> decisions. In my opinion, the amount of fun that child get from an
> activity makes it more valuable as an educational technique and
> therefore, such considerations should not be relegated to being
> secondary to whether or not some one is going to be offended or made
> uncomfortable by the activity.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Saying that
we respect the fact that some children do not celebrate
Christmas and that we will not spend the entire month of
December making a big fuss over Christmas in *no* way
requires us to adopt a stance that there will be no
celebrating of anything or that we become anti-fun. And
why shouldn't we be seeking activities that are fun for
all? We may not always succeed, but we know from the
get-go that an excess of Christmas is uncomfortable for
a significant number of families. The bottom line is that
in order to keep Christmas in the schools in a big way,
even if it's "just" relying on primarily secular symbols,
we have to dismiss the concerns of those who say that
they don't celebrate Christmas and are getting a little
tired of their kids coming home asking why *they* can't
do Santa and reindeer and Christmas trees too.
>>It seems to me that there are
>>*endless* ways to make school fun and interesting without
>>resorting to things that leave out some children.
>
> Sure there are. But there are also plenty that not everyone can
> participate in. Should we nix drama just because not everyone gets to
> play a part on stage? That some children are left out is not, by
> itself, sufficient justification for suggesting cancelling or subduing
> an activity that many enjoy.
I would be surprised to find that there are a lot of
elementary school classes that decide to do a play and then
have a few of the children uninvolved in the production.
Some may have backstage roles rather than onstage roles, but
frankly, with the little kids, it's rare to see not everyone
have onstage roles! And, of course, by the jr. high/high
school level, drama is optional. Even then, as I recall,
if someone chose to take drama class, he or she was *required*
to participate, so it's not like students were being left out.
We don't have to cancel drama. It's simple enough to get the
whole class involved, if it's an in-class activity, and I
think that's precisely what most classes do. If it's not
an in-class activity, then I think we're talking about
something similar to a club or extra-curricular activity,
in which case I think there *is* a lot more latitude
because it's *optional*. The classroom is mandatory. That
makes a big difference.
>> I am every
>>bit as concerned with the notion that school should be nothing
>>but reading, writing and 'rithmetic. Kids need recess and the
>>arts and all manner of other "extras" in order to become well-
>>rounded individuals.
>>
> While you give lip service to those concepts,
I give lip service!?! Excuse me, but I'm a musician
myself, my children are dancers and musicians, and I spend
a significant amount of my time working to ensure that there
*are* culturally enriching activities at my children's schools
by giving of my own money, time, and expertise. I think that's
a hell of a lot more than "lip service."
> you are probably more
> convincing to yourself than to me. I think that what you are
> advocating will move our educational system to one that's even more
> repressive and stultifying than the one we have
How will refraining from celebrating a holiday many
find to be religious lead to a repressive and stultifyig
educational system? I have yet to hear any evidence whatsoever
except a "slippery slope" argument that requires one to go
*far* beyond dealing with religious holidays to implement.
> What "extra" celebrating are you talking about? A school program for
> parents where they sing a few songs and put on a play? What's wrong
> with that? You don't like that it's about Christmas? Other people
> do. Why not allow them to have the celebration they want for their
> kids in their schools?
1) The "celebration of Christmas" is often *NOT* limited to
a few secular songs at a school program. It is often a
month's worth of gift exchanges, Christmas tree decorating,
and every activity with some sort of Christmas tie-in.
2) Lots of parents would like to see (Christian) prayer in school.
Does that mean we ought to have that too?
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> Anyway, that's how I've been handling it. I expect this problem to all
> but evaporate once we leave Puerto Rico.
I hope that you find it will, but I wouldn't bet on it--
even if you move to somewhere outside the Bible Belt.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Sharon Fitzgerald
Yes but WHY not? Do you recall conversations about God, religion, etc.,
when you were in grade school, junior high, or high school? I sure
don't. I certainly don't remember ever being made to feel bad or left
out about not believing in God. Are things so different now?
Banty
IME it hasn't been so much a thing about religion, specifically, but that
certain kids will pick on *any* perceived difference that comes up. A substitute
teacher asked about religion (all in a spirit of making sure she doesn't think
too many kids are Xtian, BTW!), and my son said that we don't practice any
religion. So one of the boys in his bus picked up on that. He's also gotten
teased to small extents for not having a Daddy in the house, and not being into
team sports. Although he's overcome all that to even be buddies with a couple
of the local softball powerhouse boys.
So its the usual kid stuff. Not great, but not anything that can be perfectly
avoided, either.
Banty
Matt C
news:3E0C60C7...@attglobal.net:
References to Gaia and Mother Earth are religious.
Framing environmental issues in moralistic, righteous, and crusading terms
("we have to Save The Planet") might not be strictly religious, but there is
certainly a religious undertone present.
Matt
Magi D. Shepley
Banty wrote:
> BTW - in my son's school he *has* to do chorus (which he hates) as well as band
> or orchestra.
Why? Does he go to a magnet school for the musical arts or theatre? My
elementary school did something similar: EVERYBODY was required to try
out, and they took the majority of 5th graders for chorus. Except those
that were absolutely horrendous and beyond remediation when it came to
carrying a tune. I was one of them, and one of 3 in the entire 5th
grade. I hated it. I was also one of the few kids not in band (no
orchestra in 4/5th grade), because I played the piano... and there were
no pianos in the band.
> Christmas is a very public celebration of decoration, lights, and good wishes.
> It does not stay stuffed in homes as some folks here would like.
>
> Woudl you ask the people of Rio De Janero to kindly keep their noisy Mardi Gras
> in their homes, have little samba lines with the grandparents and be done with
> it? Hope not.
>
> You have to consider the nature of the festival.
Well, my middle and high schools have done fairly well without the
practice of the holiday for most of the time I've been teaching, barring
one year... I don't object to decorations or even some carols. I do
think that if you're going to "celebrate Christmas" you should talk
about its entire history... which means its pagan background, and also
include those holidays of other cultures that occur at the same time.
Chanukkah is practiced by Jews, but it is NOT a major religious
celebration. It just attracts more attention than other holidays
because of the timing.
>
>
>
>>I wonder how you would feel if your public school was 80% Muslim and your
>>child had to participate in a Ramadan Concert and sang songs praising Allah
>>as being the One True God? And how do you think your child would feel
>>around his or her peers if you pulled your child out of the program because
>>you 'don't do Ramadan'...and worse yet, if other children started picking on
>>your child *because* they were 'different'?
>
I missed this in the original message, but feel compelled to reply since
about 25-30% of my last school was, in fact, Muslim of various types.
Between that, the Jewish population (about 5%), and the other ethnic
varities and religions, we didn't celebrate "Christmas" at the school.
We celebrated the time and the season. There was no class that I taught
(being a special education teacher) that had a clear majority of any
ethnicity or religion. In one class, there were only 2 in the room who
were American born, and both were faculty! I had one Indian Sikh, one
Pakistani, one Romanian, one Mexican, one El Salvordean, one Chilean,
and at the end of the year, one Liberian.
>
> Oh, here we go with the bogeyman argument. Two years ago such scenarios in
> these December Dillemma discussions invoked Pagan teachers and Pentagrams.
>
> Now for some reason they invoke Ramadan and crescent moons (not you, but another
> participant in another similar recent discussion brought up crescent moon
> decorations - same thing - the bogeyman of a Muslim classroom). Why is that so?
> Gee, whiz - wha' happened? Leah - I find this playing on perceived prejudices
> and fears of your readers absolutely reprehensible.
>
I agree with you whole heartedly!!!!!
> But I'll answer anyway. In that case, I'd have judicial recourse against the
> clearly religious content. I'd be happy to have my child participate in some
> aspects, such as the Id al Fitr celebration.
I enjoyed learning about the different customs and practices that my
students had during classes when appropriate. I taught functional math,
so we talked about giving gifts, and what type of budgets for holiday
celebrations... I found out that my Muslim students didn't get or give
gifts, they received money, and children NEVER gave gifts. My Romanian
student did something with eggs, fir trees and bread (he was also
autistic, so I never quite got what it was they were doing.. he may have
mixed Easter and Christmas customs up).
I also pushed in for support in the Home Ec classes (since I was a
life-skills teacher), and one of the lessons that teacher did every year
was about different breads of the world: each student brought in a bread
recipe and wrote a short paper on it (and for the ESL students she
permitted them to write in their native language, if necessary), and
then they would make most of the breads in class.
> I'm a non-Christian *NOW* who has had to coach my son on how to respond to being
> asked on the bus "so - you don't beleive in god - huh!" We are also a visibly
> non-traditional family in other ways. I'd deal with being in a minority the way
> all minorities deal constructively with their situation, which is to build pride
> in one's *own* traditions while equipping our children to deal with the wider
> world.
I used to get that too, "You don't believe in Gd!" "You're going to
hell!" Even from my best friends that I'd been friends with for years
and KNEW that I belived in Gd.
Magi
Magi D. Shepley
culture, especially with Mother Earth, Gaia included.
Southern Bible Belt comes to mind, and so do rural communities with
strong religious backgrounds.
Magi
Magi D. Shepley
of our Muslim students became MORE Muslim following 9/11, with girls who
hadn't previously worn the head-coverings starting to do so, and also
going from pants to skirts.
Magi
Magi D. Shepley
number of years (one of my friends was also Jewish, but they didn't
practice)... the teachers were ALWAYS very accommodating about what had
to be done in the classroom (and this was late 70s/early 80s). They
always ASKED my parents if it was okay. When the 1st grade teacher gave
everybody ornaments as a gift, she gave me a little cat figure, because
my mom told her that I could not receive a Christmas Tree ornament as a
gift. I still have that little cat. It was a siamese, and she gave it
to me because she knew I liked cats.
Another teacher checked when they did candy at Easter, and made sure
that what I was given was kosher for Passover (no corn syrup!). They
also ALWAYS invited my mom in (and she worked swing shift, or she'd take
a few hours off work) to teach about Hanukkah. She was always very
popular, becuase she'd bring in dreidels, chocolate coins (Hanukkah
gelt), potato latkes and applesauce. If the class was small enough, or
the teacher was willing, we'd make the potato latkes in class. She did
this EVERY year until 8th grade, and that was about the time we stopped
making a big deal out of it.
I grew up in a small town, very conservative religiously, very
religiously oriented, and very unethnically mixed. I was also the only
student with black hair growing up, until we had 3 students from Asia (2
from Cambodia, 1 from Viet Nam) arrive. Other than the occasional
snide remark from somebody about not believing in Gd, or one period of
time in 7th grade when I was called a kike repeatedly, I never
experienced a whole lot of religious issues.
Magi
Sharon Fitzgerald
>
> Sharon Fitzgerald <saf...@attglobal.net> wrote in
> news:3E0C60C7...@attglobal.net:
>
> > Matt C wrote:
> >>
> >> newsg...@bethclarkson.com (Beth Clarkson) wrote in
> >> news:e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com:
> >>
> >> > Really? Care to name a few? I'd be interested to here what popular
> >> > holidays fit that description. Earth Day perhaps? Nope. Believe it
> >> > or not, there are people opposed to that holiday, feel that it
> >> > promotes a belief system that conflicts with their religion.
> >>
> >> Or it promotes a religion that conflicts with their belief system. :)
> >
> > I suspect you are being devil's advocate here but I seriously doubt
> > anyone truly believes there is one iota of religious content in Earth
> > Day.
>
> References to Gaia and Mother Earth are religious.
GAIA is Jim Lovelock's SCIENTIFIC HYPOTHESIS* of how biota in fact
control many/most of the processes on earth. There is some evidence in
support of this *SCIENTIFIC HYPOTHESIS*. There is not one iota of
religion in this *SCIENTIFIC HYPOTHESIS*. I had the pleasure of meeting
Lovelock and he is a very interesting cat. His became independently
wealthy by inventing (and later selling) a particular type of detector
(electron capture) for gas chromatography that is in very wide use
today. He lives on a beautiful peacock-studded estate in England. He
was able to ponder and formulate the *SCIENTIFIC HYPOTHESIS* of Gaia
during his free time from being independently.
> Framing environmental issues in moralistic, righteous, and crusading terms
> ("we have to Save The Planet") might not be strictly religious, but there is
> certainly a religious undertone present.
I don't see it and I therefore disagree.
sharon
Susan Umpleby
news:3E0CB1CA...@attglobal.net...
-------------The reference was to the *goddess* Gaia. She was "mother
Earth" in Greek mysthology. http://www.theoi.com/Ouranos/Gaia.html
Ericka Kammerer
>
> Ericka Kammerer wrote:
>> I hope that you find it will, but I wouldn't bet on it--
>>even if you move to somewhere outside the Bible Belt.
>
> Yes but WHY not? Do you recall conversations about God, religion, etc.,
> when you were in grade school, junior high, or high school? I sure
> don't. I certainly don't remember ever being made to feel bad or left
> out about not believing in God. Are things so different now?
I believe that in many areas things *have* changed. I
think it's fairly universally acknowledged that the US is
becoming both more religious and more conservative. That said,
as a military brat I went to a lot of different schools. In
some of the schools I went to, what they did wrt religion would
probably now be considered clearly illegal and inappropriate.
In other schools, the issue never came up.
I think even the attempts at diversity often backfire.
For instance, with all this "winter holiday" stuff, I know that
in my boys' classrooms they occasionally go around and ask
(show of hands), "Who celebrates Christmas?" "Who celebrates
Hannukah?" "Who celebrates Ramadan?" I can only imagine it's
not the most comfortable feeling to be the person who doesn't
(apparently) have *anything* to celebrate (whether because
they're areligious or because they practice a religion that
wasn't named). I know that last year, they polled the kids
in my older son's class to find out who was Christian and
therefore eligible to play a member of the Holy Family in
their Nativity play (there were seven classes--one did a
presentation on Hannukah, one on Ramadan, and the rest
did presentations on Christmas in various parts of the
world). Adrian got to be Joseph because he said he was
Christian. The other kids were still in the play--they
were just shepherds or sheep or whatnot instead of part
of the Holy Family. That year, Adrian's public school did *far*
more Christmasy stuff than Colins preschool did--and Colin's
preschool is affiliated with our Christian church! Personally,
I found that whole thing to be out of line. I just think it
was too much and unnecessary and crossed the line between
teaching *about* something and participating *in* it. I think
that anything that even *requires* children that young to
assert their religious affiliation (whether to be eligible
to participate in something or to ask to be excluded) is
probably questionable, or at least needs to be looked at
seriously. How would your girls have felt in that situation,
I wonder?
So, honestly, while I think there has been progress
in many ways, I also think that there are many areas where
your children would be at risk for issues relating to being
areligious. In fact, sometimes I think kids are harder on
kids who are areligious than on those who have a different
religious affiliation (except for situations where a particular
religion is under fire for some reason).
I wouldn't want to be *too* pessimistic. There are
places where things would likely be much better than what
they're dealing with now. I just don't think it's a guarantee :-/
Best wishes,
Ericka
Sharon Fitzgerald
> ... I just think it
> was too much and unnecessary and crossed the line between
> teaching *about* something and participating *in* it. I think
> that anything that even *requires* children that young to
> assert their religious affiliation (whether to be eligible
> to participate in something or to ask to be excluded) is
> probably questionable, or at least needs to be looked at
> seriously. How would your girls have felt in that situation,
> I wonder?
If I had to guess, I think they would have felt bad and left out.
Though if they were given a choice of ANY part they wanted NOT in the
context of only christian children can play certain parts, I think they
would have chosen the sheep! But that's just my interest in animals
that has rubbed off on them, I think. They have absorbed quite a lot of
esoteric facts about animals by now.
Sharon Fitzgerald
But the reference in the Earth Day content is surely Lovelock's
hypothesis and NOT the goddess Gaia, no?
sharon
Sharon Fitzgerald
"Magi D. Shepley" wrote:
>
> There are people who think that Earth Day is a celebration of Pagan
> culture, especially with Mother Earth, Gaia included.
> Southern Bible Belt comes to mind, and so do rural communities with
> strong religious backgrounds.
Then that is their ignorance speaking.
sharon
Alan Lichtenstein
Unfortunately, those ignorant people vote.
Alan
Ericka Kammerer
> You must not have been in the same "near DC" part that I was in. Many
> of our Muslim students became MORE Muslim following 9/11, with girls who
> hadn't previously worn the head-coverings starting to do so, and also
> going from pants to skirts.
Interesting. Around here, many of the Muslims I know
were trying to downplay it as much as possible without
violating their beliefs (with some of the less obervant
even giving up head-coverings in some situations where
they didn't feel safe identifying as Muslim). Things
seem to have eased up some since then, but there was
definitely a time they they were feeling uneasy about
it.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Banty
>
>
>
>Banty wrote:
>>BTW - in my son's school he *has* to do chorus (which he hates) as well as band
>> or orchestra.
>
>Why?
Beats me. I have my theories, though ;-)
>Does he go to a magnet school for the musical arts or theatre?
Nope.
>My
>elementary school did something similar: EVERYBODY was required to try
>out, and they took the majority of 5th graders for chorus. Except those
> that were absolutely horrendous and beyond remediation when it came to
>carrying a tune. I was one of them, and one of 3 in the entire 5th
>grade. I hated it. I was also one of the few kids not in band (no
>orchestra in 4/5th grade), because I played the piano... and there were
>no pianos in the band.
>
I think it's that they want *all* the kids exposed to arts, and they know a lot
of kids would opt out. I think another reason is that they want to assure that
their bands, choruses, etc., are filled.
They also have gotten very strict about having a balanced set of instruments in
the band and orchestra, and they assign it. They let kids list their top three
preferences, but only a few get it! Firstly, there are only a few popular
instruments (like sax), secondly, they want gender-balanced sections, so boy
would-be floutists get their choice, and, if a girl wants precussion - she's in.
Otherwise, it's according to what they think the child is suited for. Like my
tall son got - trombone. Long arms.
>>Christmas is a very public celebration of decoration, lights, and good wishes.
>> It does not stay stuffed in homes as some folks here would like.
>>
>>Woudl you ask the people of Rio De Janero to kindly keep their noisy Mardi Gras
>>in their homes, have little samba lines with the grandparents and be done with
>> it? Hope not.
>>
>> You have to consider the nature of the festival.
>
>Well, my middle and high schools have done fairly well without the
>practice of the holiday for most of the time I've been teaching, barring
>one year... I don't object to decorations or even some carols. I do
>think that if you're going to "celebrate Christmas" you should talk
>about its entire history... which means its pagan background, and also
>include those holidays of other cultures that occur at the same time.
>Chanukkah is practiced by Jews, but it is NOT a major religious
>celebration. It just attracts more attention than other holidays
>because of the timing.
I would agree. It's all a matter of context, and presenting that context.
>>>I wonder how you would feel if your public school was 80% Muslim and your
>>>child had to participate in a Ramadan Concert and sang songs praising Allah
>>>as being the One True God? And how do you think your child would feel
>>>around his or her peers if you pulled your child out of the program because
>>>you 'don't do Ramadan'...and worse yet, if other children started picking on
>>>your child *because* they were 'different'?
>>
>I missed this in the original message, but feel compelled to reply since
> about 25-30% of my last school was, in fact, Muslim of various types.
> Between that, the Jewish population (about 5%), and the other ethnic
>varities and religions, we didn't celebrate "Christmas" at the school.
>We celebrated the time and the season. There was no class that I taught
>(being a special education teacher) that had a clear majority of any
>ethnicity or religion. In one class, there were only 2 in the room who
>were American born, and both were faculty! I had one Indian Sikh, one
>Pakistani, one Romanian, one Mexican, one El Salvordean, one Chilean,
>and at the end of the year, one Liberian.
We are getting a similar variety of backgrounds in my son's classroom, too.
Refugees from the former Yugoslavia and Albania, many Muslim. Africans
increasingly, many out of Nigeria. Mexican and Central American sons and
daughters of former landscape minimum wage workers who have established
landscaping firms of their own (American dream stories!), on and on.
>
>>
>> Oh, here we go with the bogeyman argument. Two years ago such scenarios in
>> these December Dillemma discussions invoked Pagan teachers and Pentagrams.
>>
>>Now for some reason they invoke Ramadan and crescent moons (not you, but another
>> participant in another similar recent discussion brought up crescent moon
>>decorations - same thing - the bogeyman of a Muslim classroom). Why is that so?
>>Gee, whiz - wha' happened? Leah - I find this playing on perceived prejudices
>> and fears of your readers absolutely reprehensible.
>>
>I agree with you whole heartedly!!!!!
Thanks - nice to know that others sense the underlying tactic being applied
here.
>
>> But I'll answer anyway. In that case, I'd have judicial recourse against the
>> clearly religious content. I'd be happy to have my child participate in some
>> aspects, such as the Id al Fitr celebration.
>
>I enjoyed learning about the different customs and practices that my
>students had during classes when appropriate. I taught functional math,
>so we talked about giving gifts, and what type of budgets for holiday
>celebrations... I found out that my Muslim students didn't get or give
>gifts, they received money, and children NEVER gave gifts. My Romanian
>student did something with eggs, fir trees and bread (he was also
>autistic, so I never quite got what it was they were doing.. he may have
>mixed Easter and Christmas customs up).
>I also pushed in for support in the Home Ec classes (since I was a
>life-skills teacher), and one of the lessons that teacher did every year
>was about different breads of the world: each student brought in a bread
>recipe and wrote a short paper on it (and for the ESL students she
>permitted them to write in their native language, if necessary), and
>then they would make most of the breads in class.
Yes, yes. These things are *opportunities* for development of the child's view
of the world. Not problems to be hidden away.
Banty
Beth Clarkson
> Beth Clarkson wrote:
>
> > Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<3E0B7773...@comcast.net>...
>
> >>It seems to me that there are
> >>plenty of holidays that *everyone* agrees are entirely
> >>secular, that are lots of fun, and full of educational
> >>opportunities.
> >
> > Really? Care to name a few? I'd be interested to here what popular
> > holidays fit that description. Earth Day perhaps? Nope. Believe it
> > or not, there are people opposed to that holiday, feel that it
> > promotes a belief system that conflicts with their religion.
>
>
> Our schools do all the patriotic holidays (and make
> a big deal over them) plus a lot of school specific holidays
> where they celebrate school spirit or school accomplishments.
Would you mind naming those holidays? Surely you're not referring to
Indepenence Day in July. If you mean President's day or Martin Luther
King Day, I don't believe either is considered a major Holiday in
anyone's book, but I do know people who complain about them. Columbus
Day celebrations have all but disappeared due to various P.C.
objections to recognizing the first European to have made his way to
America. What other 'patriotic' holidays are you referring to?
> (They also do the winter holiday roundup, which I think is
> inappropriate given that they *don't* then hit the major
> holidays of other religions that are only celebrating minor
> holidays near Christmas--so much for real diversity.)
So what is it that you are objecting to exactly? Too much partying?
Too much Christmas? Are you actually green and do you ever go by the
alias of Grinch?
>
> >> Do you really believe that celebrating Christmas is
> >>what makes school fun for kids?
> >
> > No, I didn't say that and I don't believe it. That's a straw man
> > reconstruction of my argument. The point I'm making is that such
> > activities are always controversial to some extent and that there are
> > people who will object to any such activity as being unimportant to
> > the function of school. They can be right for any isolated activity,
> > but the whole approach ends up with schools having a disdain for 'fun'
> > and such considerations take second place when making policy
> > decisions. In my opinion, the amount of fun that child get from an
> > activity makes it more valuable as an educational technique and
> > therefore, such considerations should not be relegated to being
> > secondary to whether or not some one is going to be offended or made
> > uncomfortable by the activity.
>
>
> I don't think that's necessarily true.
You're entitled to your opinion. Doesn't mean you're right and you
don't offer any compelling evidence to make me change my mind.
> Saying that
> we respect the fact that some children do not celebrate
> Christmas and that we will not spend the entire month of
> December making a big fuss over Christmas in *no* way
> requires us to adopt a stance that there will be no
> celebrating of anything or that we become anti-fun.
Advocating that fun activities for the majority of children should be
cancelled because it *might* make someone uncomfortable is certainly
proceeding further down the path towards anti-fun. Given that school
is, in general, anti-fun for most kids and given that if you could
succeed in getting Christmas celebrations banned, I don't see any hope
for other fun activities. I'd say if your viewpoint was accepted and
implemented, we would indeed have an official public school policy of
'anti-fun'.
> And
> why shouldn't we be seeking activities that are fun for
> all?
Because it's naive and unrealistic to think that such things exist.
Human beings are a diverse lot and what's fun for some is probably
going to be an excruciating experience for others. (I, for example,
hated music classes which were required through junior high, but loved
anything mathematical.) If you limit approved public school
activities to something that 'fun for all' you have essentially
eliminated ALL fun activities for everyone, except for those few who
enjoy the required stuff.
> We may not always succeed, but we know from the
> get-go that an excess of Christmas is uncomfortable for
> a significant number of families. The bottom line is that
> in order to keep Christmas in the schools in a big way,
> even if it's "just" relying on primarily secular symbols,
> we have to dismiss the concerns of those who say that
> they don't celebrate Christmas and are getting a little
> tired of their kids coming home asking why *they* can't
> do Santa and reindeer and Christmas trees too.
And eliminating the school stuff will eliminate those questions!!!!
Get real. B ut I'm not saying that Christmas has to be done in a "big
way". Just that if that's what being done, then I would presume that
the people whose kids are in that school generally want such a
celebration. If there is a minority that don't, I don't think they
should be able to override the wishes of the majority in that
situation. I do agree that their children shouldn't be forced to
participate, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to
tolerate others having a celebration.
Yes, I think you just give lip service to the concept of allowing
others to do what they find enjoyable. Personally, I always hated the
required music classes I had in elementary and junior high schools.
I'm tone deaf, can't carry a tune, can't march in step, and was
usually last chair (or next to it) in band. I would have much
preferred being allowed the choice of segregating myself from the
others and curling up with a book of math or logic problems. Your
attitude, applied to that situation rather than Christmas, would have
all the other children denied musical opportunities because I
shouldn't be subjected to being either required to participate or
forced to choose between participation or segregation.
> > you are probably more
> > convincing to yourself than to me. I think that what you are
> > advocating will move our educational system to one that's even more
> > repressive and stultifying than the one we have
> How will refraining from celebrating a holiday many
> find to be religious lead to a repressive and stultifyig
> educational system? I have yet to hear any evidence whatsoever
> except a "slippery slope" argument that requires one to go
> *far* beyond dealing with religious holidays to implement.
It's a slippery slope argument, but I think if you can get Christmas
celebrations banned, it's not very far to the bottom of that
particular slope.
> > What "extra" celebrating are you talking about? A school program for
> > parents where they sing a few songs and put on a play? What's wrong
> > with that? You don't like that it's about Christmas? Other people
> > do. Why not allow them to have the celebration they want for their
> > kids in their schools?
>
>
> 1) The "celebration of Christmas" is often *NOT* limited to
> a few secular songs at a school program. It is often a
> month's worth of gift exchanges, Christmas tree decorating,
> and every activity with some sort of Christmas tie-in.
> 2) Lots of parents would like to see (Christian) prayer in school.
> Does that mean we ought to have that too?
You know, I remember being in elemtary classrooms where the Lord's
prayer was said in unison right after the flag salute every morning.
I'm not sure if it was legal or not at that time, but my parent's
church didn't approve of such praying. (Their church didn't celebrate
Christmas or Easter either, btw, though my parents did celebrate
Christmas in our home.) Frankly, having experienced that situation
growing up, I find the fuss made over it to be way out of proportion.
If the majority of people would prefer that their child attend a
school with a morning prayer, who am I to say that they shouldn't? I
think they should be allowed to do whatever they think best. I don't
think that you or I or anyone else should be able to force others, who
don't agree with them, to either participate in or forgo such things.
Beth Clarkson
Bob LeChevalier
>Matt C wrote:
>> Sharon Fitzgerald <saf...@attglobal.net> wrote in
>> news:3E0C60C7...@attglobal.net:
>> > Matt C wrote:
>> >> newsg...@bethclarkson.com (Beth Clarkson) wrote in
>> >> news:e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com:
>> >>
>> >> > Really? Care to name a few? I'd be interested to here what popular
>> >> > holidays fit that description. Earth Day perhaps? Nope. Believe it
>> >> > or not, there are people opposed to that holiday, feel that it
>> >> > promotes a belief system that conflicts with their religion.
>> >>
>> >> Or it promotes a religion that conflicts with their belief system. :)
>> >
>> > I suspect you are being devil's advocate here but I seriously doubt
>> > anyone truly believes there is one iota of religious content in Earth
>> > Day.
>>
>> References to Gaia and Mother Earth are religious.
>
>GAIA is Jim Lovelock's SCIENTIFIC HYPOTHESIS* of how biota in fact
>control many/most of the processes on earth.
That may be the case, but "Gaia" was also the name of a Greek earth
goddess, Earth worship is one of the most widespread pagan religious
orientations, and many New Agers who use the term probably have no
idea about the science behind the hypothesis.
Even so, I was in school at the time of the first Earth Day, which was
before the Gaia hypothesis was named, and there was no implication of
religious orientation. It was largely about the damage caused by
pollution.
>> Framing environmental issues in moralistic, righteous, and crusading terms
>> ("we have to Save The Planet") might not be strictly religious, but there is
>> certainly a religious undertone present.
>
>I don't see it and I therefore disagree.
Some people think that it is impossible to have a morality without
implicitly having a religion underlying that morality. The problem is
that the Constitution does not saying anything about establishments of
morality, only about establishments of religion.
lojbab
Ericka Kammerer
> They also have gotten very strict about having a balanced set of instruments in
> the band and orchestra, and they assign it. They let kids list their top three
> preferences, but only a few get it! Firstly, there are only a few popular
> instruments (like sax), secondly, they want gender-balanced sections, so boy
> would-be floutists get their choice, and, if a girl wants precussion - she's in.
> Otherwise, it's according to what they think the child is suited for. Like my
> tall son got - trombone. Long arms.
Wow. I'm all for everyone getting at least a basic
musical education, but this seems over the top to me. I can't
imagine being required to play an instrument that really didn't
suit me or that I hated. Playing most instruments seems like
a very personal thing to me. If I'd been assigned to trombone,
I don't think I'd have enjoyed music at all (nothing against
trombones, mind you ;-)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Sharon Fitzgerald
> >Yikes. This surprises me. I think back to my grade school days in
> >Queens NYC and I can't recall ANYONE discussing religion in any way,
> >shape, or form. So I just chalked it up to another PR-specific problem
> >but I guess its not that simple. Well my DH is interviewing for a job
> >in Calgary, Alberta. Perhaps he'll take that and things won't be quite
> >so "monolithic" as they are here in PR.
> >
> >sharon, momma to savannah and willow (11/11/94)
>
> http://gocanada.about.com/cs/calgarychurches/
>
> :In the heart of the Canadian Bible Belt, Calgary is home to several
> :mainstream and not-so-mainstream churches, religious denominations
> :and spiritual movements
>
> Of course there is a Jewish Community there also
>
> http://www.jewish-calgary.com/
>
> :1607 - 90th Avenue S.W., Calgary, Alberta T2V 4V7 Canada
> :Tel: (403) 253-8600 Fax: (403) 253-7915
The CANADIAN BIBLE BELT!?!?!?!
Is it even sporting to have TWO bible belts on one continent?!?!?!?
What is a lone little band of atheist expatriates like us supposed to
do????
Ericka Kammerer
> Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<3E0C8069...@comcast.net>...
>> Our schools do all the patriotic holidays (and make
>>a big deal over them) plus a lot of school specific holidays
>>where they celebrate school spirit or school accomplishments.
>
> Would you mind naming those holidays?
Sure--President's Day is one--and while people have
their complaints, I don't recall any religious ones. Yes,
there's a lot of controversy over MLK day. They make less
fuss over that one. Independence Day is celebrated in the
local schools that have year 'round schedules (there are
several). They also take advantage of whatever the're studying
to have school parties, so when they study Columbus (which
they usually time to be near Columbus Day), they go ahead
and celebrate that. They might be studying a particular
country and have an activity related to that country--
particularly if there's a student from that country in
the class. As far as I can tell, they have no shortage
of things to celebrate for all the other months of the
year, and none of them are religious. It's just
December that gets inundated with Christmas (and oh,
yeah, some of those other holidays too). I'm sure
there would be plenty of things to do in December if
they chose not to overload on Christmas.
>>(They also do the winter holiday roundup, which I think is
>>inappropriate given that they *don't* then hit the major
>>holidays of other religions that are only celebrating minor
>>holidays near Christmas--so much for real diversity.)
>
> So what is it that you are objecting to exactly? Too much partying?
> Too much Christmas?
I'm objecting to spending the entire month of December
with every activity relating to Christmas in some fashion.
The art projects are all Christmas trees/Christmas ornaments/
wreaths/etc. Classes decorate Christmas cookies. There are
gift exchanges in some classes. The reading assignments focus
on all manner of Christmas stories, though not necessarily
Biblical stories. The music classes focus on Christmas music
(even if it's not "Silent Night"). The math assignments
revolve around Christmas conceits. The spelling words are
Christmas words. Science projects are inspired by Christmas
notions. Oh, and every once in a while someone will throw
a tidbit in about Ramadan or Kwanza or Hannukah as an aside.
I think this is excessive, and more than those who choose
not to celebrate Christmas should be expected to put up with
in a public school.
> Advocating that fun activities for the majority of children should be
> cancelled because it *might* make someone uncomfortable is certainly
> proceeding further down the path towards anti-fun. Given that school
> is, in general, anti-fun for most kids
It is? Funny that my kids seem to enjoy going, then...
> and given that if you could
> succeed in getting Christmas celebrations banned, I don't see any hope
> for other fun activities.
Why would banning Christmas celebrations preclude, say,
field trips to the zoo or bringing in artists to share their
talents or playing games or joining the chess club or
having the school Fun Fair or the back-to-school pizza party
or the talent show or the book fair or the spirit competition
or any number of other things my kids seem to think are great
fun?
>>We may not always succeed, but we know from the
>>get-go that an excess of Christmas is uncomfortable for
>>a significant number of families. The bottom line is that
>>in order to keep Christmas in the schools in a big way,
>>even if it's "just" relying on primarily secular symbols,
>>we have to dismiss the concerns of those who say that
>>they don't celebrate Christmas and are getting a little
>>tired of their kids coming home asking why *they* can't
>>do Santa and reindeer and Christmas trees too.
>
> And eliminating the school stuff will eliminate those questions!!!!
It will?!? If we don't celebrate Christmas in
school, poor little Jewish kids in the US won't have a
clue that there's a big holiday at the end of December
and won't ever learn to think critically or question
their values?
> Yes, I think you just give lip service to the concept of allowing
> others to do what they find enjoyable. Personally, I always hated the
> required music classes I had in elementary and junior high schools.
> I'm tone deaf, can't carry a tune, can't march in step, and was
> usually last chair (or next to it) in band. I would have much
> preferred being allowed the choice of segregating myself from the
> others and curling up with a book of math or logic problems. Your
> attitude, applied to that situation rather than Christmas, would have
> all the other children denied musical opportunities because I
> shouldn't be subjected to being either required to participate or
> forced to choose between participation or segregation.
No. I have only argued that children should have
the freedom not to have to be segregated by religious
affiliation. That doesn't get people who don't like to
sweat out of gym class or people who don't like to sing
out of music class or people who don't like to do math
out of math class. I think there's a limit, in that I
don't think a child who hates music should be forced to
train as if they were going to become a professional
musician, nor that people who hate math should have to
take advanced calculus. But that has nothing to do with
the imposition of activities which a significant number
of Americans find religiously unacceptable.
>> How will refraining from celebrating a holiday many
>>find to be religious lead to a repressive and stultifyig
>>educational system? I have yet to hear any evidence whatsoever
>>except a "slippery slope" argument that requires one to go
>>*far* beyond dealing with religious holidays to implement.
>
> It's a slippery slope argument, but I think if you can get Christmas
> celebrations banned, it's not very far to the bottom of that
> particular slope.
How? What's the connection between asserting
that children shouldn't have to be segregated by religious
affiliation or be inundated with the celebration of a
holiday they are forbidden to participate in and making a
massive conceptual leap to saying no one should do anything
they don't like?
> You know, I remember being in elemtary classrooms where the Lord's
> prayer was said in unison right after the flag salute every morning.
> I'm not sure if it was legal or not at that time, but my parent's
> church didn't approve of such praying. (Their church didn't celebrate
> Christmas or Easter either, btw, though my parents did celebrate
> Christmas in our home.) Frankly, having experienced that situation
> growing up, I find the fuss made over it to be way out of proportion.
> If the majority of people would prefer that their child attend a
> school with a morning prayer, who am I to say that they shouldn't? I
> think they should be allowed to do whatever they think best. I don't
> think that you or I or anyone else should be able to force others, who
> don't agree with them, to either participate in or forgo such things.
I don't agree that majority rules in every issue,
and neither did the founders of this country. While majority
rules works just fine for many things, there are things that
should be exempted from that, and I think that one of them
happens when we cross the line and start asking young children
in public schools to segregate by religious affiliation just
so that kids belonging to the majority can celebrate a holiday
that is celebrated nonstop outside the classroom anyway. I
find it hard to be overwhelmed with sympathy for the plight
of those poor children who might not get enough Christmas
unless they do it in the classroom every day.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Sharon Fitzgerald
> Even so, I was in school at the time of the first Earth Day, which was
> before the Gaia hypothesis was named, and there was no implication of
> religious orientation. It was largely about the damage caused by
> pollution.
Touche. Good point. The first earth day definitely preceded Lovelock's
hypothesis. I should also add that I think Lynn Marguiles is almost
equally associated with the Gaia hypothesis... forgot to mention her.
sharon
Hillary Israeli
Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote:
*> Our schools do all the patriotic holidays (and make
*> a big deal over them) plus a lot of school specific holidays
*> where they celebrate school spirit or school accomplishments.
*
*Would you mind naming those holidays? Surely you're not referring to
*Indepenence Day in July. If you mean President's day or Martin Luther
Why not Independence Day? It's huge! I think it is my fourth biggest
holiday celebration (I'd put it after the High Holidays, Thanksgiving, New
Year's, and Purim). It's certainly a much much MUCH bigger deal than, say,
Chanukah, as far as I am concerned! Christmas doesn't even register on my
radar. Really. I mean, I have a reasonable number of gentile friends but I
have not been invited to any Christmas celebrations (seems they all do
family stuff) and my boss is Jewish so no Christmas stuff with him, so
really it all kind of glosses past me and doesn't affect me.
*King Day, I don't believe either is considered a major Holiday in
*anyone's book, but I do know people who complain about them. Columbus
I agree that President's Day and MLK Day aren't celebrated that much by
the masses, but it doesn't HAVE to be that way. Plus, there are
subcultures in which at least MLK Day is huge! For example, among the men
who work in my husband's factory -- well, they do a big MLK celebration
every year!
*Day celebrations have all but disappeared due to various P.C.
*objections to recognizing the first European to have made his way to
*America. What other 'patriotic' holidays are you referring to?
I don't know about Columbus Day. My mom's birthday is 10/12 so that always
has kind of superceded it in my family. For that matter, my birthday is
2/19 and that's always around President's Day so I usually think fondly of
the Presidents as I enjoy my long birthday weekend :)
You forgot Memorial Day, Labor Day, and Veterans' Day.
But anyway.
--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net in...@hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)
Joni Rathbun
On Sat, 28 Dec 2002, Hillary Israeli wrote:
> In <e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com>,
> Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote:
>
> *> Our schools do all the patriotic holidays (and make
> *> a big deal over them) plus a lot of school specific holidays
> *> where they celebrate school spirit or school accomplishments.
> *
> *Would you mind naming those holidays? Surely you're not referring to
> *Indepenence Day in July. If you mean President's day or Martin Luther
>
> Why not Independence Day?
Because most schools are closed?
I know. Some communities have year round schools. We have
nearly 200 year round elementary schools. I haven't worked in one so
I don't know how they deal with. But most schools across the country
aren't in operation in July so.... it's probably not a big deal in
most schools across the country.
Leah Adezio
Banty <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:augo1...@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article <3e0bd...@nntp2.nac.net>, "Leah says...
> >
> >
> >Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote in message
> >news:e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com...
> >
> >> Sure there are. But there are also plenty that not everyone can
> >> participate in. Should we nix drama just because not everyone gets to
> >> play a part on stage? That some children are left out is not, by
> >> itself, sufficient justification for suggesting cancelling or subduing
> >> an activity that many enjoy.
> >
does
> >not *choose* to participate in it. It is *his choice* because it is not
> >mandated that he participate....and the school musical is not part of the
> >overall curriculum.
>
> But if chorus is the kewlist thing going (well, chorus usually isn't, but
the
> dillemma definitely applies to *team sports*), his not choosing to
participate
> can single him out and/or give him lower status.
But if so, it would be *his choice*....and his risk.
>
> BTW - in my son's school he *has* to do chorus (which he hates) as well as
band
> or orchestra.
In his middle school, they have music class, but participation in band,
chorus or orchestra is voluntary.
>
> >
> >>
> >> What "extra" celebrating are you talking about? A school program for
> >> parents where they sing a few songs and put on a play? What's wrong
> >> with that? You don't like that it's about Christmas? Other people
> >> do. Why not allow them to have the celebration they want for their
> >> kids in their schools?
> >
> >Because in many schools, these are either *not* voluntary activities
(i.e.,
> >the entire class participates) or, in the instance of band or chorus, the
> >selection of music is not something the musician can opt out of on a case
by
> >case basis (though in chorus, I suppose, one could either mouth the words
> >and not actually sing, but in band, it's kind of noticable if the only
> >baritone sax player isn't playing their part). And in the case of
Christmas
> >parties in the classroom, it's not like some kids can say to the teacher
> >'Teach me during party time because a Christmas party is against my
> >beliefs'? And how many *young* kids have the maturity not to feel bad
> >when they might be the only kid in class who isn't giving Christmas
cards?
> >And don't think the other kids *don't* notice.
> >
> >Let them have the celebration they want -- but in their homes, where it
> >belongs.
>
> Christmas is a very public celebration of decoration, lights, and good
wishes.
> It does not stay stuffed in homes as some folks here would like.
True, and it's something non-Christians deal with, but in school, children
are a captive audience. If I find the mall so offensive in its decorations,
for example, I have the option of going home. My child doesn't have that
option.
>
> Woudl you ask the people of Rio De Janero to kindly keep their noisy Mardi
Gras
> in their homes, have little samba lines with the grandparents and be done
with
> it? Hope not.
>
> You have to consider the nature of the festival.
>
>
> >
> >I wonder how you would feel if your public school was 80% Muslim and your
> >child had to participate in a Ramadan Concert and sang songs praising
Allah
> >as being the One True God? And how do you think your child would feel
> >around his or her peers if you pulled your child out of the program
because
> >you 'don't do Ramadan'...and worse yet, if other children started picking
on
> >your child *because* they were 'different'?
>
> Oh, here we go with the bogeyman argument. Two years ago such scenarios
in
> these December Dillemma discussions invoked Pagan teachers and Pentagrams.
>
> Now for some reason they invoke Ramadan and crescent moons (not you, but
another
> participant in another similar recent discussion brought up crescent moon
> decorations - same thing - the bogeyman of a Muslim classroom). Why is
that so?
> Gee, whiz - wha' happened? Leah - I find this playing on perceived
prejudices
> and fears of your readers absolutely reprehensible.
Don't read too much into the selection, Banty. I picked the first major
holiday that also falls around this time of year that I could think of that
wasn't Chanukkah. That's all. Pick another religion and holiday if you
like. Don't assume you have vacation space in my head in accusing me of
'playing on perceived prejudices and fears'.....I neither fear Muslims nor
Ramadan.
>
> But I'll answer anyway. In that case, I'd have judicial recourse against
the
> clearly religious content. I'd be happy to have my child participate in
some
> aspects, such as the Id al Fitr celebration. As far as being in a
minority -
> I'm a non-Christian *NOW* who has had to coach my son on how to respond to
being
> asked on the bus "so - you don't beleive in god - huh!" We are also a
visibly
> non-traditional family in other ways. I'd deal with being in a minority
the way
> all minorities deal constructively with their situation, which is to build
pride
> in one's *own* traditions while equipping our children to deal with the
wider
> world.
Yet, you see nothing wrong with having Christmas celebrated in
schools...even though some religions make no distinction between
'secular'and 'religious' Christmas?
And yes, we instill a sense of pride in our own traditions, too.....but for
a young child being bombarded with symbolism and celebration of Christmas
*in school*, that pride can sometimes waver.
Leah
no one can afford the vacation space in my head. :)
Banty
Well, sure. But aren't we to let people define what Earth Day means to them,
and therefore refrain ourselves so as not to single out their children ;-/
Banty
Sharon Fitzgerald
Well, when you put it *that* way and alllll.... but of course!
sharon
Ericka Kammerer
I don't know the history of Earth Day well enough to
speak to it; however, there's a huge difference:
1) I doubt one will find evidence that Earth Day is considered,
or ever was considered, a religious festival on any religion's
calendar.
2) While there is debate among the conservative Christian community
whether Earth Day is too pagan, there is not consensus and there
are many conservative Christians who believe that Earth Day *is*
appropriate.
There are a number of controversies surrounding Earth Day, of course,
and most of them are political. It's no accident that the conservative
Christians who rail against it also tend to be politically active
against what they see as radical environmentalists (and there's no
doubt that Earth Day is a big party for environmentalists--who aren't
yet considered a religion, as far as I know). There's also the
controversy over why the date got moved to Lenin's birthday (he
wasn't a neo-pagan as far as I know either). There have been
controversies over things like public schools deciding to enact
clearly pagan rituals on Earth Day (not because such things are
inextricably associated with Earth Day, mind you--most schools
observing Earth Day do so with a purely environmental curriculum),
and courts have struck those down as inappropriate. While you won't
find Christmas celebrated in synagogues or mosques, you will find Earth
Day celebrated, or at least recognized, in a wide variety of houses of
worship, thanks to an organization that has made it it's goal to get
Earth Day *into* all religions, claiming that stewardship of the
earth is, or should be, a concern of all religions. They, of course,
have had more success with some religions than with others.
I'll agree that neo-pagans of various sorts would *like* to co-opt
Earth Day and use it as a lever to gain more acceptance and
visibility, and some have been trying hard. As far as I can tell,
however, they have not succeeded. It's still listed as an
"international" holiday everywhere I can find (whereas Christmas
is listed as a Christian holiday in all the same lists). Earth
Day celebrations draw religious leaders from a wide variety of
faiths. To be sure, members of different religions have different
ways of observing Earth Day, and neo-pagans add one sort of
religious observance, and Christians another, and Jews yet another,
and so forth--just as different religions in the US also
observe things like Independence Day and Veterans Day and
use that opportunity to discuss one's religious obligation to
country from the perspective of that religion.
I'll acknowledge the controversy over Earth Day, but I don't
think it is comparable to Christmas at all. The controversy over
Earth Day is largely political in its roots, not religious
(though obviously, there is not a clear line drawn between
politics and religion). I have *never* said that anything
goes or that we have to avoid everything anyone doesn't
like in public schools. There has to be *some* evidence to
hang one's hat on, and even then there has to be an evaluation
of the extent of the issue and the liabilities of removing
something from the classroom. In the case of Christmas, the
evidence for it being a Christian holiday is significant, the
extent of resistance is significant and the liabilities of
removing it from the classroom are nearly nil. In the case
of Earth day, the evidence of it being a neo-pagan holiday
is slim, the extent of resistance is confined, as far as I
can tell, to a few evangelical/conservative Christians who
don't even entirely agree among themselves, and the significance
of removing an environmental curriculum from the schools (which
would be the consequence, as those who object, object to the
environmentalism not just the day) would be significant.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Hillary Israeli
Joni Rathbun <jrat...@orednet.org> wrote:
*
*On Sat, 28 Dec 2002, Hillary Israeli wrote:
*
*> In <e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com>,
*> Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote:
*>
*> *> Our schools do all the patriotic holidays (and make
*> *> a big deal over them) plus a lot of school specific holidays
*> *> where they celebrate school spirit or school accomplishments.
*> *
*> *Would you mind naming those holidays? Surely you're not referring to
*> *Indepenence Day in July. If you mean President's day or Martin Luther
*>
*> Why not Independence Day?
*
*Because most schools are closed?
So? Schools are closed for Christmas too, last I checked. You can have a
huge teaching module and lots of celebratory activities for the last 2-3
weeks of school, though. Heck, they start the Christmas stuff in school
right after Thanksgiving!
Beth Clarkson
> Beth Clarkson wrote:
>
> > Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<3E0C8069...@comcast.net>...
>
> >> Our schools do all the patriotic holidays (and make
> >>a big deal over them) plus a lot of school specific holidays
> >>where they celebrate school spirit or school accomplishments.
> >
> > Would you mind naming those holidays?
>
>
> > Too much Christmas?
>
> > I'm objecting to spending the entire month of December
> with every activity relating to Christmas in some fashion.
> The art projects are all Christmas trees/Christmas ornaments/
> wreaths/etc. Classes decorate Christmas cookies. There are
> gift exchanges in some classes. The reading assignments focus
> on all manner of Christmas stories, though not necessarily
> Biblical stories. The music classes focus on Christmas music
> (even if it's not "Silent Night"). The math assignments
> revolve around Christmas conceits. The spelling words are
> Christmas words. Science projects are inspired by Christmas
> notions. Oh, and every once in a while someone will throw
> a tidbit in about Ramadan or Kwanza or Hannukah as an aside.
> I think this is excessive, and more than those who choose
> not to celebrate Christmas should be expected to put up with
> in a public school.
WOW! I have to admit, your school does seem to be going overboard. I
can see wanting to tone that kind of concentration down. Seeking a
reasonable balance is a different matter than seeking to suppress or
eliminate all Christmas celebrations entirely, which is what has been
discussed.
>
> > Advocating that fun activities for the majority of children should be
> > cancelled because it *might* make someone uncomfortable is certainly
> > proceeding further down the path towards anti-fun. Given that school
> > is, in general, anti-fun for most kids
> It is? Funny that my kids seem to enjoy going, then...
Nice that your kids enjoy it. My niece loves it too, cries when she
can't go because she's ill. But for most children, the stereotype is
that they don't enjoy school. They cheer for snow days and other
unexpected closings.
> > and given that if you could
> > succeed in getting Christmas celebrations banned, I don't see any hope
> > for other fun activities.
>
>
> Why would banning Christmas celebrations preclude, say,
> field trips to the zoo or bringing in artists to share their
> talents or playing games or joining the chess club or
> having the school Fun Fair or the back-to-school pizza party
> or the talent show or the book fair or the spirit competition
> or any number of other things my kids seem to think are great
> fun?
More than one person in this thread has commented that they'd like to
see all parties and celebrations for childrenn eliminated from
schools. My opinion is that if they can do so successfully with
Christmas, they can get them all cancelled. Are you familiar with the
idea of keystone species in environmental sciences? If you lose
certain species, such as coral, you lose a great many others species
along with that one because the others depend on that one. My opinion
is that Christmas is a keystone holiday. If we lose the option of
celebrating that one, I think that schools may bow to the kind of
attitude seen in this thread that celebrations are, in general,
unnecessary, detract from academics, and should be eliminated.
>
> > Yes, I think you just give lip service to the concept of allowing
> > others to do what they find enjoyable. Personally, I always hated the
> > required music classes I had in elementary and junior high schools.
> > I'm tone deaf, can't carry a tune, can't march in step, and was
> > usually last chair (or next to it) in band. I would have much
> > preferred being allowed the choice of segregating myself from the
> > others and curling up with a book of math or logic problems. Your
> > attitude, applied to that situation rather than Christmas, would have
> > all the other children denied musical opportunities because I
> > shouldn't be subjected to being either required to participate or
> > forced to choose between participation or segregation.
> No. I have only argued that children should have
> the freedom not to have to be segregated by religious
> affiliation. That doesn't get people who don't like to
> sweat out of gym class or people who don't like to sing
> out of music class or people who don't like to do math
> out of math class.
And my comment was that if you applied your reasoning to something
other than holidays and religious affliations, that is what you would
get. I realize that you haven't made that argument. I was making
what is commonly referred to an analogy in an attempt to get you to
think about your views in a wider context. Apparently, that attempt
failed. Sorry.
> I think there's a limit, in that I
> don't think a child who hates music should be forced to
> train as if they were going to become a professional
> musician, nor that people who hate math should have to
> take advanced calculus. But that has nothing to do with
> the imposition of activities which a significant number
> of Americans find religiously unacceptable.
Whereas, you would impose your beliefs about what are acceptable
celebrations for schoolchildren on others. By the way, I agree with
you regarding not imposing activities on those that find them
religiously unacceptable. I don't even care whether it's a
significant number of not. At the same time, I don't think it's
acceptable to restrict others from doing activities just because those
who object would be required to tolerate being around them.
> I don't agree that majority rules in every issue,
> and neither did the founders of this country. While majority
> rules works just fine for many things, there are things that
> should be exempted from that, and I think that one of them
> happens when we cross the line and start asking young children
> in public schools to segregate by religious affiliation just
> so that kids belonging to the majority can celebrate a holiday
> that is celebrated nonstop outside the classroom anyway. I
> find it hard to be overwhelmed with sympathy for the plight
> of those poor children who might not get enough Christmas
> unless they do it in the classroom every day.
I'm not arguing that the majority rules. But neither does the
minority.
There's a big difference between requiring participation in those
activities (you must Christmas songs in the choir) and providing those
who have different beliefs with the choice of not participating. You
term giving them that choice as 'segregation by religious affilition"
and feel it would be better to forbid the celebrations altogether than
it is to provide those who don't celebrate with that choice. I
disagree. I think it is a more acceptable solution to that problem
than requiring the majority to alter their celebrations in order not
to offend those who do not.
Happy Holidays
Beth Clarkson
CBI
"Beth Clarkson" <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote in message
news:e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com...
>
> I'm not arguing that the majority rules. But neither does the
> minority.
Wow! Who'd have thought this thread(s) could be summarized in two short
sentences?
--
CBI
Banty
newsg...@bethclarkson.com says...
>
>More than one person in this thread has commented that they'd like to
>see all parties and celebrations for childrenn eliminated from
>schools. My opinion is that if they can do so successfully with
>Christmas, they can get them all cancelled. Are you familiar with the
>idea of keystone species in environmental sciences? If you lose
>certain species, such as coral, you lose a great many others species
>along with that one because the others depend on that one. My opinion
>is that Christmas is a keystone holiday. If we lose the option of
>celebrating that one, I think that schools may bow to the kind of
>attitude seen in this thread that celebrations are, in general,
>unnecessary, detract from academics, and should be eliminated.
Well, I for one, if it's not going to stay the way it is, woudl really acquiesce
only if *all* other non-civic celebrations are also not in the schools. One
reason is that, if *ST.* Valentine's Day and *ST.* Patrick's Day are still
marked, it's pretty clear that the opposition to Christmas isn't based on
principle - rather it's either based on weariness with the extent of the Xmas
stuff, or it's basically a drive for ethnic influence. I tend to think the
former, which is why I propose some de-emphasis and accomodations. (Which, in
schools in NY, WI, TX, and CO, I've known about.) If it's based on principle,
then that would be reflected in the removal of all cultural celebration as
always *someone* would be left out. That goes for Columbus day (legit Native
American grievance and some historical questions) and Cinco de Mayo (*another
nation's* civic holiday; observed here as a cultural holiday for some but not
all) too. And birthdays - food and religious questions there, too. Out out
out. Either it's based on the principle of not leaving anyone out, or it
reflects an agenda of some sort pertaining to Chrismas and who celebrates it.
The schools, if they address this at all, shoudl only address the former.
If it's to be singled out as a *religious* celebration (or, this roundabout
"someone thinks it's religious so it's religious"), then I have clear
social-political interests in opposing removing any Christmas celebration, as
that goes to abet and strengthen the long-attempted Christian co-option of the
festival.
>> No. I have only argued that children should have
>> the freedom not to have to be segregated by religious
>> affiliation. That doesn't get people who don't like to
>> sweat out of gym class or people who don't like to sing
>> out of music class or people who don't like to do math
>> out of math class.
>
>And my comment was that if you applied your reasoning to something
>other than holidays and religious affliations, that is what you would
>get. I realize that you haven't made that argument. I was making
>what is commonly referred to an analogy in an attempt to get you to
>think about your views in a wider context. Apparently, that attempt
>failed. Sorry.
It should have succeeded. You were applying reductio ad absurdum. The reason
IMO that it missed because of Ericka's axiom that religious concerns are of
greater import than other concerns. So she sees it as "slippery slope" to
fundamentally different concerns. It isn't.
One practical example that has appeared here of the ridiculous impact (and
current impact - not slippery slope future projections of "what if") to this
notion that no child should be apparently different is in the problem of the
allergic child in the classroom, and the inability of her parent to solve the
problem straightforwardly by providing treats for her own daughter although
other kids get commonly provided treats. So it's either everyone gets
non-allergenic treats and all the hassles associated with that, or no birthday
party at all. A ridiculous imposed dillemma.
Hear hear.
Banty
Magi D. Shepley
She's clearly presented as a Goddess.
Magi
Sharon Fitzgerald wrote:
> Susan Umpleby wrote:
>
>>"Sharon Fitzgerald" <saf...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
>>news:3E0CB1CA...@attglobal.net...
>>
>>>Matt C wrote:
>>>
>>>>Sharon Fitzgerald <saf...@attglobal.net> wrote in
>>>>news:3E0C60C7...@attglobal.net:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Matt C wrote:
>>>>
>>>>References to Gaia and Mother Earth are religious.
>>>
Magi D. Shepley
is presented as such in the films and books used in the celebration of
the holiday. Do you REALLY think that a theory by a scientist in
England is being used in elementary schools around the United States?
Magi
Banty
Yep. That's it in a nutshell.
Banty
Sharon Fitzgerald
>
> Not if you know that Gaia is from Greek (hence Pagan to many) myth, and
> is presented as such in the films and books used in the celebration of
> the holiday. Do you REALLY think that a theory by a scientist in
> England is being used in elementary schools around the United States?
Well to the extent that is it a deep-ploughing, intriguing,
easily-explainable theory, I think they should be teaching that instead
of some fictional symbol.
sharon
Ericka Kammerer
> WOW! I have to admit, your school does seem to be going overboard.
As I said in another place, there's been a lot of
inconsistency, even at the same school. Some years it's been
overwhelming in some classrooms, and in other classrooms in
other years it's been very low key.
> I
> can see wanting to tone that kind of concentration down. Seeking a
> reasonable balance is a different matter than seeking to suppress or
> eliminate all Christmas celebrations entirely, which is what has been
> discussed.
The perspective I've come from is that I see a great
deal of inconsistency in how schools approach it, and I think
the reason this happens is that the majority refuses to
acknowledge the imposition they're creating and the minority
are pressured not to make a fuss over it. So, I'm not
convinced that this "reasonable balance" thing is working
out on the whole (though I know it's working in *some* places).
I think that the system is set up in such a way that
it encourages abuses, or at least *discourages* remedying
any abuses that happen. So I would prefer to see either
that it's eliminated, or that much stricter guidelines
are drawn.
> More than one person in this thread has commented that they'd like to
> see all parties and celebrations for childrenn eliminated from
> schools.
I think that's really conflating two different things.
Well, I take that back. I think there are a few people who
*would* like to see little ones with their noses to the
grindstone all day long. But I think the gripe about all
the celebrating from most of us has to do more with how
things are handled. I get tired of escalating birthday
parties at school where my child comes home wanting to
do the same thing for *his* birthday that so-and-so did
(like bringing an entire *meal* for the whole class, plus
gifts!). I get tired of having parties for *every* *little*
*thing* where I get told with only a day or two's notice to
cough up time, money, food, or whatever. It's not so
much that I mind that they're having some fun in class.
It's that I can hardly keep up with all the demands on
*my* time and energy and money--and I only have *two*
kids in school! I think it would be far better if they
laid down some guidelines and imposed some organization
so that I wasn't frequently sitting down trying to figure
out how to wedge an extra trip to the grocery store in
*that night* when I had other plans already, or how to
arrange my schedule to show up in class with only a
day's notice.
> My opinion is that if they can do so successfully with
> Christmas, they can get them all cancelled. Are you familiar with the
> idea of keystone species in environmental sciences? If you lose
> certain species, such as coral, you lose a great many others species
> along with that one because the others depend on that one. My opinion
> is that Christmas is a keystone holiday. If we lose the option of
> celebrating that one, I think that schools may bow to the kind of
> attitude seen in this thread that celebrations are, in general,
> unnecessary, detract from academics, and should be eliminated.
I hear what you're saying. I just don't agree that
that's likely to happen. I don't think that the sentiments
behind wanting to eliminate or trim back Christmas and
the sentiments behind wanting all-work-and-no-play are
similar, even though people who espouse the latter are
likely to also espouse the former. I think most people
who object to celebrating Christmas in school do so
because they feel it is inappropriate proselytization
than because they don't want the kids to have any
fun (though, as I said, I wouldn't mind not spending
December, which is a very hectic month for me to begin
with, jumping to do all sorts of extra stuff for school
so they can have this excessive Christmas stuff). But
that's just my opinion.
>> No. I have only argued that children should have
>>the freedom not to have to be segregated by religious
>>affiliation. That doesn't get people who don't like to
>>sweat out of gym class or people who don't like to sing
>>out of music class or people who don't like to do math
>>out of math class.
>
> And my comment was that if you applied your reasoning to something
> other than holidays and religious affliations, that is what you would
> get. I realize that you haven't made that argument. I was making
> what is commonly referred to an analogy in an attempt to get you to
> think about your views in a wider context. Apparently, that attempt
> failed. Sorry.
I see the attempt to make the analogy, but I just
don't think the analogy holds. I don't think the issues
involved are similar.
> Whereas, you would impose your beliefs about what are acceptable
> celebrations for schoolchildren on others. By the way, I agree with
> you regarding not imposing activities on those that find them
> religiously unacceptable. I don't even care whether it's a
> significant number of not. At the same time, I don't think it's
> acceptable to restrict others from doing activities just because those
> who object would be required to tolerate being around them.
But how is it that not celebrating Christmas in public
schools *in any way* limits children's ability to celebrate
Christmas? I think this is the weakest of all arguments, in
that Christmas, of all holidays or events, is going to get
*plenty* of celebrating without the public schools helping
out. My children have *so* much Christmas to celebrate that
the few hours they spend in school every day doesn't even
begin to make a dent in it. We've got an entire month of
church services and church activities, not to mention the
Nutcracker (which eats us alive in December) and assorted
community activities. I love Christmas, and even I'm
exhausted by the time it's over! So I just don't get at
all why it's limiting for Christmas celebrators to limit
their celebrations for their few hours of school. If we
were saying that, say, no one could bring a ham sandwich
to school because a few Jewish kids might be offended
at catching a glimpse of one, I'd say that was over the
top. If they were asking Jewish children to *eat* ham,
or spending a month celebrating the glory of ham, I'd
say that was inappropriate.
> There's a big difference between requiring participation in those
> activities (you must Christmas songs in the choir) and providing those
> who have different beliefs with the choice of not participating. You
> term giving them that choice as 'segregation by religious affilition"
> and feel it would be better to forbid the celebrations altogether than
> it is to provide those who don't celebrate with that choice. I
> disagree. I think it is a more acceptable solution to that problem
> than requiring the majority to alter their celebrations in order not
> to offend those who do not.
I think it depends on the situation. I don't think that
young children should be put in a position where significant
numbers need to set themselves apart for religious reasons. I
think the kids pay a penalty for that and they're too young to
be expected to do that. If choir is a mandatory activity, then
they should avoid religious songs. Not only that, I think they
should avoid overwhelming the choir with secular Christmas
songs. When kids get older, then they're more able to make
some of these distinctions, and they also (hopefully) have
a more highly developed sense of tolerance and respect of
others not like themselves. At that point, one can have
more latitude. But little kids shouldn't have to.
In the classroom, I don't think there should be activities
which cross that line into celebrating a religious holiday
(even if some people celebrate it as a secular holiday). I
think it asks too much of a young child to ask them to identify
what crosses that line and then take the initiative to stand
up and opt out of it, thereby setting themselves up as an
outsider. There's plenty to do without crossing that line.
I also think there's an issue of intent. Many's
the school where only the names have been changed (e.g.,
the "Christmas concert" is now the "Winter concert") but
the intentions and the content remain the same. It's
certainly possible to obey the letter of the law and not
its spirit. Some of this can't really be legislated
(at least I don't think it can), but unless we remain
vigilant and critical of attempts to cross the line, I
think we create an intolerant atmosphere and we shouldn't
do that.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Best wishes,
Ericka
Matt C
>> References to Gaia and Mother Earth are religious.
>
> GAIA is Jim Lovelock's SCIENTIFIC HYPOTHESIS* [...]
Hmmm. Here is an Earth Day poem I found on the web:
http://www.supportpaganartists.com/gaea.html
I don't think the author is gasming about Jim Lovelock here.
Matt
Darlene Sue Marquardt
There is basically no mention of earth day at my school. I remember the
very first school I ever taught in, (way back in 1970) though and earth day
was a big thing. At the time I thought it was a neat thing to do with the
kids..e tc.. .. but as I have aged.. I think if I had to teach anything
about earth day, I would shy away from it .. reason being.. over the years I
have seen what "environmentalists" have done to hurt our economy and our
land.. etc.. They think they are protecting the earth when in fact they are
not. ... Then that is a whole other discussion.. and that is all I am
going to say ..
d
--
* * * *
For Your Protection, this E-mail was automatically scanned by Norton
Antivirus 2002 before being sent.
"Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3E0DC2AE...@comcast.net...
Joni Rathbun
On Sat, 28 Dec 2002, Hillary Israeli wrote:
> In <Pine.LNX.4.44.021227...@lab.oregonvos.net>,
> Joni Rathbun <jrat...@orednet.org> wrote:
>
> *
> *On Sat, 28 Dec 2002, Hillary Israeli wrote:
> *
> *> In <e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com>,
> *> Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote:
> *>
> *> *> Our schools do all the patriotic holidays (and make
> *> *> a big deal over them) plus a lot of school specific holidays
> *> *> where they celebrate school spirit or school accomplishments.
> *> *
> *> *Would you mind naming those holidays? Surely you're not referring to
> *> *Indepenence Day in July. If you mean President's day or Martin Luther
> *>
> *> Why not Independence Day?
> *
> *Because most schools are closed?
>
> So? Schools are closed for Christmas too, last I checked. You can have a
> huge teaching module and lots of celebratory activities for the last 2-3
> weeks of school, though. Heck, they start the Christmas stuff in school
> right after Thanksgiving!
At least it's not as early as the stores, which put out all the Christmas
stuff here the day after Halloween. That said, we didn't do much for
Christmas. I set out poinsettas and some students came in during
their free time and made some gingerbread houses which we put on
display and eventually raffled off. I like Christmas and all that
jazz but I'd really rather do the 4th of July -- more curricular
connections and the food is good :D
Magi D. Shepley
term "mythology".
Magi
Ericka Kammerer
> My 2 cents:
>
> There is basically no mention of earth day at my school. I remember the
> very first school I ever taught in, (way back in 1970) though and earth day
> was a big thing. At the time I thought it was a neat thing to do with the
> kids..e tc.. .. but as I have aged.. I think if I had to teach anything
> about earth day, I would shy away from it .. reason being.. over the years I
> have seen what "environmentalists" have done to hurt our economy and our
> land.. etc.. They think they are protecting the earth when in fact they are
> not. ... Then that is a whole other discussion.. and that is all I am
> going to say ..
As I said, the controversies are largely political on this
one ;-)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Irene
> In <e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com>,
> Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote:
>
> *> Our schools do all the patriotic holidays (and make
> *> a big deal over them) plus a lot of school specific holidays
> *> where they celebrate school spirit or school accomplishments.
> *
> *Would you mind naming those holidays? Surely you're not referring to
> *Indepenence Day in July. If you mean President's day or Martin Luther
>
> Why not Independence Day? It's huge! I think it is my fourth biggest
> holiday celebration (I'd put it after the High Holidays, Thanksgiving, New
> Year's, and Purim). It's certainly a much much MUCH bigger deal than, say,
> Chanukah, as far as I am concerned! Christmas doesn't even register on my
> radar. Really. I mean, I have a reasonable number of gentile friends but I
> have not been invited to any Christmas celebrations (seems they all do
> family stuff) and my boss is Jewish so no Christmas stuff with him, so
> really it all kind of glosses past me and doesn't affect me.
>
>
favorite Jewish holiday, and now that I'm a grownup, definitely the
biggest celebration. (My family never did a big event surrounding the
High Holidays - we went to services together, but no parties, not even
a big Break the Fast). I always liked Purim best as a kid, of course.
We also did big Thanksgiving and New Year's Eve stuff, too.
Just curious - not at all relating to any actual debate here!
Irene
Magi D. Shepley
we always have friends over, and its a lot of fun. I always liked
Purim, but being in a small town without a lot of Jewish friends, we
only got to celebrate when I was little enough to go to the Jewish
Community Center events.
Magi
Donna Metler
one hand, I'm really uncomfortable with putting holiday empasis on any
area-and on the other hand the administration, parents, and children demand
it. So every year I attempt to get rid of the standard holiday program-and
every year I watch it slip back in, whether I want it to do so or not. I
select secular music with global themes, only to have children and parents
ask why they can't sing "X"-I make my part of the program as balanced as
possible, only to watch the other participants-the dance team, the early
childhood/primary music teacher-pull out all the stops on holidays. I set up
the stage only to find I have to decorate around a Christmas tree which
seems to come from Rockefeller Square, which we have to use because it was
donated. I've tried to move the program to November or January, using the
excuse that December is too full-no dice-the required curriculum expects a
performance in December.
Our primary kids got at least three "Christmas" parties each, between the
different charities which only seem to remember poor kids in December, and
don't accept that poor kids might be Jewish, or Moslem, Atheist or Jehovah's
Witness. If a teacher doesn't participate (as one of our Jehovah's Witness
first grade teachers attempted) she pretty much either is totally ostracized
or ends up taking leave and letting a substitute handle it. Our one Moslem
teacher has taken the last two weeks before winter break off the last two
years as medical leave-because, as she says-being at the school that last
few weeks just does too many bad things to her blood pressure!
Anyway, please be aware that many teachers aren't comfortable either with
the situation-and don't know how to change it or what to do next. In some
ways, I'd almost prefer to teach at a Christian school than try to walk the
tightrope every year.
Beth Clarkson
> Beth Clarkson wrote:
> The perspective I've come from is that I see a great
> deal of inconsistency in how schools approach it, and I think
> the reason this happens is that the majority refuses to
> acknowledge the imposition they're creating and the minority
> are pressured not to make a fuss over it. So, I'm not
> convinced that this "reasonable balance" thing is working
> out on the whole (though I know it's working in *some* places).
> I think that the system is set up in such a way that
> it encourages abuses, or at least *discourages* remedying
> any abuses that happen. So I would prefer to see either
> that it's eliminated, or that much stricter guidelines
> are drawn.
There was a post by Robyn Kozierok that had some good ideas about
establishing guidelines in a community. I think that such things on
community level are a good idea - leads to better knowledge of how
others in the community feel, but I think that federal or state
guidelines would be a bad idea - not enough flexibility to accomodate
the diversity within our country. I'm not clear on what it is you're
supporting, but so far the impression I have is that you're not
particularly tolerant of letting people make choices (like a heavy
concentration on Christmas) you don't approve of.
> > Whereas, you would impose your beliefs about what are acceptable
> > celebrations for schoolchildren on others. By the way, I agree with
> > you regarding not imposing activities on those that find them
> > religiously unacceptable. I don't even care whether it's a
> > significant number of not. At the same time, I don't think it's
> > acceptable to restrict others from doing activities just because those
> > who object would be required to tolerate being around them.
>
>
> But how is it that not celebrating Christmas in public
> schools *in any way* limits children's ability to celebrate
> Christmas?
The issue to me is not that what you are suggesting is an unreasonable
imposition, but that you are telling others how they should be allowed
to celebrate Christmas in their schools. You are judging for others
whether your request is or is not an imposition on them. (You don't
think is is. Big surprise.) Just because you don't feel that it *in
any way* limits their ability to celebrate Christmas doesn't mean they
agree with you. Convince them, not me, if you want changes to occur.
Sounds like in your school, it would be a reasonable argument. I don't
think that's the case universally.
> I think it depends on the situation. I don't think that
> young children should be put in a position where significant
> numbers need to set themselves apart for religious reasons. I
> think the kids pay a penalty for that and they're too young to
> be expected to do that.
I actually agree with you here, but the only way I see of resolving
this particular issue is to allow people more choices and freedom in
selecting their schools. Support vouchers.
> If choir is a mandatory activity, then
> they should avoid religious songs. Not only that, I think they
> should avoid overwhelming the choir with secular Christmas
> songs. When kids get older, then they're more able to make
> some of these distinctions, and they also (hopefully) have
> a more highly developed sense of tolerance and respect of
> others not like themselves. At that point, one can have
> more latitude. But little kids shouldn't have to.
> In the classroom, I don't think there should be activities
> which cross that line into celebrating a religious holiday
> (even if some people celebrate it as a secular holiday).
I don't think you'll make much headway with this argument. If it's
both a secular and a religious holiday - as Christmas is - then you
can't presume that expecting children to celebrate Christmas is any
more out of line than expecting them to celebrate Thanksgiving.
I agree with CBI here, it's makes no sense to take offense at a
perceived religious connotation when there are other, non-religious,
interpretations of the same symbols. We are not a Christian family,
but we celebrate Christmas, have a tree, give gifts, etc. In fact,
being of German descent, I can claim the the Christmas tree in my
house is a family tradition that goes back farther than Christianity
does. So why presume that math problems in the shape of a Christmas
tree is an inappropriate religious symbol for small children in public
schools? Why give it any more religious significance than math
problems in the shape of a turkey for Thanksgiving?
> I also think there's an issue of intent. Many's
> the school where only the names have been changed (e.g.,
> the "Christmas concert" is now the "Winter concert") but
> the intentions and the content remain the same. It's
> certainly possible to obey the letter of the law and not
> its spirit. Some of this can't really be legislated
> (at least I don't think it can), but unless we remain
> vigilant and critical of attempts to cross the line, I
> think we create an intolerant atmosphere and we shouldn't
> do that.
My opinion is that you are the person who is working to create an
intolerant atmosphere. Now, I believe that you sincerely believe in
the value of tolerance, but I think you are unaware that the reforms
you have been promoting are a form of intolerance, not tolerance.
Tolerance, in practice, means allowing others to do what they wish and
not taking offense when none is meant. Intolerance, in practice, is
taking offense at activities you disapprove of, regardless of their
intent, and working to disallow others the opportunity to participate
in them. That is what you have been promoting throughout this thread.
Beth Clarkson
Circe
> Anyway, that's how I've been handling it. I expect this problem to
> all but evaporate once we leave Puerto Rico.
>
My almost 14yo nephew, a self-identifying atheist, reports that he is often
harassed and annoyed by classmates ("You don't believe in God? You're going
to Hell!") because he admits his atheism. We've tried to get him to
dissemble when asked about his religious beliefs, but I think he secretly
enjoys the attention and getting his close-minded classmates' hackles up.
We live in San Diego County--hardly the Bible belt (though they'll probably
be moving to South Carolina come summer when my BIL is transferred by the
Navy).
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [7/22/97], Aurora [7/19/99], and Vernon's [3/2/02] mom)
Been there, done that, worn it on my T-shirt.
"The only problem with babies is they don't keep worth a darn." -- My
Mom
This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"Granny's do it better" -- license plate frame
Ericka Kammerer
> Anyway, please be aware that many teachers aren't comfortable either with
> the situation-and don't know how to change it or what to do next. In some
> ways, I'd almost prefer to teach at a Christian school than try to walk the
> tightrope every year.
I can certainly understand the dilemma--and I think it's
as unfair to the teachers as to anyone else. And I think what
you experience is an *excellent* example of just how pushy the
majority can be. You're trying to do as your conscience dictates
and you're getting all sorts of pushback. Imagine how it feels
to be in the minority where it's one's religious sensibility being
violated, in addition to one's sense of what's appropriate, against
all that pushback.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Sharon Fitzgerald
>
> Sharon Fitzgerald wrote:
> > Anyway, that's how I've been handling it. I expect this problem to
> > all but evaporate once we leave Puerto Rico.
> >
> My almost 14yo nephew, a self-identifying atheist, reports that he is often
> harassed and annoyed by classmates ("You don't believe in God? You're going
> to Hell!") because he admits his atheism. We've tried to get him to
> dissemble when asked about his religious beliefs, but I think he secretly
> enjoys the attention and getting his close-minded classmates' hackles up.
>
> We live in San Diego County--hardly the Bible belt (though they'll probably
> be moving to South Carolina come summer when my BIL is transferred by the
> Navy).
In re South Carolina, that is a bug hub of operations in my husband's
company. Jobs come open from time to time there that he is interesting
in but I have told him that I don't think I could ever be happy there
for several reasons, notably the fact that they insist on flying the
Confederate Flag over the state capital and the abominable weather.
Luckily there are enough other opportunities in the company so this is a
critical issue.
sharon
Banty
When it comes right down to it, it's a matter of raising your kids to be
self-assured and independant-minded, and equipping them with coping mechanisms
to deal with prejudice and ignorance and opposition.
I wouldn't toss away any prospect of living in a Bible belt region, myself.
Especially near armed forces bases and universities, one can find like-minded
and tolerant companions. Even smaller towns and more rural areas aren't
exactly bastions of thought control, either! It's largely a matter of now one
goes about it.
Banty
Magi D. Shepley
places), and the only Jewish child in my elementary school... why didn't
any of this BOTHER me? Maybe because my teachers were careful to
include my holiday. Who knows... I just think we're making a big deal
out of nothing. There are way far more important things in schools to
worry about... Like where the heck the rocket kits I ordered in
SEPTEMBER are?!
Magi
Hillary Israeli
Irene <iren...@my-deja.com> wrote:
*hil...@hillary.net (Hillary Israeli) wrote in message news:<slrnb0ptsp....@manx.misty.com>...
*> In <e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com>,
*> Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote:
*>
*> *> Our schools do all the patriotic holidays (and make
*> *> a big deal over them) plus a lot of school specific holidays
*> *> where they celebrate school spirit or school accomplishments.
*> *
*> *Would you mind naming those holidays? Surely you're not referring to
*> *Indepenence Day in July. If you mean President's day or Martin Luther
*>
*> Why not Independence Day? It's huge! I think it is my fourth biggest
*> holiday celebration (I'd put it after the High Holidays, Thanksgiving, New
*> Year's, and Purim). It's certainly a much much MUCH bigger deal than, say,
*> Chanukah, as far as I am concerned! Christmas doesn't even register on my
*> radar. Really. I mean, I have a reasonable number of gentile friends but I
*> have not been invited to any Christmas celebrations (seems they all do
*> family stuff) and my boss is Jewish so no Christmas stuff with him, so
*> really it all kind of glosses past me and doesn't affect me.
*>
*>
*Wait a second - where's Pesach on your list? That's got to be my
ACK! It has apparently been filtered out by my mammary glands or
something. I'm telling you, I am always addle-minded during lactation. Why
IS that?? I'd put Pesach between the High Holidays and Thanksgiving. :)
We DO have big family gatherings at Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur though
(my family does a big RH thing and I really love it, and my ILs do a big
break the fast thing which I'm starting to warm up to) so I'd put them
before Pesach. Pesach is fabulous, though. I can't BELIEVE I left it out.
Banty
>
>And as one of the only Jewish teachers in my school (except in two
>places), and the only Jewish child in my elementary school... why didn't
>any of this BOTHER me? Maybe because my teachers were careful to
>include my holiday. Who knows... I just think we're making a big deal
>out of nothing. There are way far more important things in schools to
>worry about... Like where the heck the rocket kits I ordered in
>SEPTEMBER are?!
>
>Magi
Yes, I think there has been a lot of projection about how people *should* be
feeling and how they *should* be dealing with the position of being a minority.
(Different topic, though related) Magi - if you were to present the High Holy
Day's educationally, or mark them in some way like Cinco de Mayo is marked (as
an exposure to a cultural consituent of our society), how would you go about it?
Banty
Ericka Kammerer
> There was a post by Robyn Kozierok that had some good ideas about
> establishing guidelines in a community. I think that such things on
> community level are a good idea - leads to better knowledge of how
> others in the community feel, but I think that federal or state
> guidelines would be a bad idea - not enough flexibility to accomodate
> the diversity within our country. I'm not clear on what it is you're
> supporting, but so far the impression I have is that you're not
> particularly tolerant of letting people make choices (like a heavy
> concentration on Christmas) you don't approve of.
Yes, I would say that's a fair statement (although I
don't think I'm alone in disapproving of a heavy concentration
on Christmas). I *do* think there's a limit to what schools
should be able to do. I think a primary function of public
schools, right up there with providing an academic education,
is to teach our children their civic responsibilities and
pass on our civic values. I don't believe that allowing
the majority to force it's values, beliefs, or religion
on the minority is part of being a good citizen or part
of our civic values. I think our public schools should
lead the way in teaching *about* the diversity in our
country, not lead the way in expecting those who don't
want to participate in something for religious reasons
to do so. So while I think there should be room for
*some* fine tuning, I think there should be limits.
I don't think that just because the majority in a school
are Christian, they should be able to decide to have,
for example, prayer in school. I don't think they should
be able to do it even if it so happens that in a particular
year there aren't *any* non-Christians in the school. So
yes, I favor some limits and am not a proponent of every
community having total flexibility in determining what
happens in their public schools.
>> I think it depends on the situation. I don't think that
>>young children should be put in a position where significant
>>numbers need to set themselves apart for religious reasons. I
>>think the kids pay a penalty for that and they're too young to
>>be expected to do that.
>
> I actually agree with you here, but the only way I see of resolving
> this particular issue is to allow people more choices and freedom in
> selecting their schools. Support vouchers.
When/if that happens, I'm happy to consider alternatives.
That's not my reality now.
> I don't think you'll make much headway with this argument. If it's
> both a secular and a religious holiday - as Christmas is - then you
> can't presume that expecting children to celebrate Christmas is any
> more out of line than expecting them to celebrate Thanksgiving.
It is? Thanksgiving is also a religious holiday?
> My opinion is that you are the person who is working to create an
> intolerant atmosphere. Now, I believe that you sincerely believe in
> the value of tolerance, but I think you are unaware that the reforms
> you have been promoting are a form of intolerance, not tolerance.
I think this is a favorite argument of the majority
when they feel threatened.
> Tolerance, in practice, means allowing others to do what they wish and
> not taking offense when none is meant.
This is a very one-sided view that assumes that only
one sort of interpretation is valid (that of the majority).
Best wishes,
Ericka
Magi D. Shepley
Primarily, so that my students know that I will not be in school, or
in a larger metro area (only one that I've ever taught in), so they know
WHY they have the day off.
The picture symbols that I use to make the calendar symbols include all
of the major Jewish holidays (and some others, since somebody did an
extra "free" set for the proram). But I mark almost all the holidays
that I can think of... I don't mark St. Patrick's day, but that is
because several of my students associate the holiday with drunken brawls.
As far as exposure to a culture content, I wouldn't use Rosh Hashana or
Yom Kippur. I'd use Passover or Purim. In fact, I do use Passover... I
usually bring in matzoh, which we taste and discuss its use. This is,
again, because when I teach self-contained students, they want to know
why anything is different, especially if it concerns me.
Magi
Katie Jaques
> Sharon Fitzgerald wrote:
>
> >
> > Ericka Kammerer wrote:
>
> >> I hope that you find it will, but I wouldn't bet on it--
> >>even if you move to somewhere outside the Bible Belt.
> >
> > Yes but WHY not? Do you recall conversations about God, religion, etc.,
> > when you were in grade school, junior high, or high school? I sure
> > don't. I certainly don't remember ever being made to feel bad or left
> > out about not believing in God. Are things so different now?
>
>
> I believe that in many areas things *have* changed. I
> think it's fairly universally acknowledged that the US is
> becoming both more religious and more conservative. That said,
> as a military brat I went to a lot of different schools. In
> some of the schools I went to, what they did wrt religion would
> probably now be considered clearly illegal and inappropriate.
> In other schools, the issue never came up.
snip to shorten ...
> So, honestly, while I think there has been progress
> in many ways, I also think that there are many areas where
> your children would be at risk for issues relating to being
> areligious. In fact, sometimes I think kids are harder on
> kids who are areligious than on those who have a different
> religious affiliation (except for situations where a particular
> religion is under fire for some reason).
> I wouldn't want to be *too* pessimistic. There are
> places where things would likely be much better than what
> they're dealing with now. I just don't think it's a guarantee :-/
>
Ericka, our experience says you're right about this. My oldest
grandson, Parker (Barbara's nephew), told some friends in the second
grade that he did not believe in God. He was in that elementary
school through the sixth grade and never, never lived that down. He
was teased and bullied continually on account of it. It particularly
upset him because, he said, all he had done was tell the truth, and he
thought he would be respected for it. Instead, he was tagged as the
"odd one."
Now he is in junior high school in a different (though still local)
district, and he is still having trouble with some of his peers. I
understand a group of girls in his class has been trying for two years
to convert him to Christianity. He pays no attention to it, but
again, he is badgered and annoyed continually.
Of course things haven't changed all that much. My father was a
college professor and used to say that whenever you applied for a
fellowship, grant, job, or whatever, you HAD to indicate a religious
preference or you would never get to first base. He always said he
was a Unitarian because that was as near no church as he could get
<G>.
Grandma Katie
Mom to Barbara (Circe) and Valerie, Grandma to Parker, Cora, Julian,
Aurora and Vernon
Joni Rathbun
I remember discussions about God and religion as early as 3rd grade - in
my own experience.
I have a son whose own experience mirrors the experience above. HE was
in 4th grade when the girl sitting next to him in class discovered he
didn't do the God part of the Pledge. Her words to him were, "You'll
burn in hell!!" She proceded to harass him on a regular basis and
recruited others to help her. My son was followed to the restrooms,
around the playground and on the walk/bike ride home. I had no idea
this was going on at first. I simply noticed a change coming over
my son. A child who was once eager to go to school suddenly started
dreaming up reasons to avoid school and anything that had to do with
school. He eventually became physically responsive to the situation
and started crying all the time before he finally came forward to
explain what was going on. The school intervened and brought the
visible harassment to an end. He transferred to another school shortly
there after.
As a teacher, I've seen other incidents not unlike this -- or rather
I've seen enough to believe that children likely engage in more of
this kind of activity than we are allowed to see. I remember when
one child raised his hand to tell me he was a Witness and couldn't
do the Pledge (our district requires the Pledge and 60 seconds of
silence each morning). Negative comments and whispers and snide
remarks made their way around the room like a wave at a Seahawk's
football game.
In 8th grade, my daughter's social studies class started discussing
religion. I do believe the discussion was ... borderline. The teacher
was one of those overtly Christian types who wore Jesus clothing and
brought the subject up wayyyyyy too often if you ask me. I'm a strong
supporter of such discourse and do not shelter my children but
there's a difference between teaching ABOUT religion and preaching
in a classroom. I was going to go to school and check things o ut
but my daughter talked me out of it. Middle school and all... okay.
I let it go and we simply discussed things between ourselves. Good
talk. Back in her classroom, however, she described a pretty
vicious environment - with all the good Catholic and Protestant
students on one side of the room saying horrid things about non
Christians. Then there was my daughter and a couple other kids
on the other side of the room, too intimidated to say much of anything
(if you knew my daughter, you'd know it takes a lot to intimidate
her, especially into silence).
So anyway, yes.... school can provide a hostile environment for
those who are... different.
Irene
Mommy-brain strikes again! ;-) I kind of figured you forgot about it
- it seemed like it would be one of your favorites!
Actually, my MIL's best friend does a semi-big break the fast, so
we've been doing that lately. Last year, we had three generations of
three families, with three babies all born within 6 weeks of each
other. (Yes, I know, I'm straying very far OT!) Ok, enough of
that...
Irene
Beth Clarkson
> Beth Clarkson wrote:
> > Tolerance, in practice, means allowing others to do what they wish and
> > not taking offense when none is meant.
> This is a very one-sided view that assumes that only
> one sort of interpretation is valid (that of the majority).
>
Well, I don't see it that way, but perhaps you can teach me another
way to view tolerance and intolerance. I'm willing to listen. I may
not agree, but I'm willing to be tolerant of others having different
viewpoints.
I'll ask you the same thing I asked Naomi:
Tolerance is allowing others to do what they like. Intolerance is
insisting that others behave as you consider appropriate. Tolerance
is allowing everyone to decide for themselves what celebration is
appropriate. Intolerance is making that decision for others based on
your own beliefs. Which are you advocating?
BTW, this has been a most interesting discussion. I always enjoy some
food for thought. Even though you don't agree with me (even I don't
agree with me 100% of the time. I change my mind way too much.) I
hope I have caused you to think some new thoughts about familiar
things. You have provided that for me. Thanks.
Happy Holidays
Beth Clarkson
Christopher Biow
>Matt C wrote:
>> newsg...@bethclarkson.com (Beth Clarkson) wrote
>> > Really? Care to name a few? I'd be interested to here what popular
>> > holidays fit that description. Earth Day perhaps? Nope. Believe it
>> > or not, there are people opposed to that holiday, feel that it
>> > promotes a belief system that conflicts with their religion.
>> Or it promotes a religion that conflicts with their belief system. :)
>I suspect you are being devil's advocate here but I seriously doubt
>anyone truly believes there is one iota of religious content in Earth
>Day.
Would that be a Metric or English iota?
As seen from within:
* 4/22: Earth Day--Day to honor the Earth and to meditate on Deity
manifesting as Mother Earth.
<http://www.wheeloftheyear.com/uu.htm>
And from without:
As this pantheistic eco-religion labors to remake man in earth's image we
can already see it flex its religious muscles in several normal ways: in
its establishment of new holy days (e.g. Earth Day)...
<http://www.pantheist.net/society/workman.html>
Futher examples left as an exercise for to the Googlist.
Circe
> I'll ask you the same thing I asked Naomi:
>
> Tolerance is allowing others to do what they like. Intolerance is
> insisting that others behave as you consider appropriate. Tolerance
> is allowing everyone to decide for themselves what celebration is
> appropriate. Intolerance is making that decision for others based on
> your own beliefs. Which are you advocating?
>
activity in December involved some reference to Christmas symbolism, albeit
of the "secular" variety--trees, Rudolph, stockings, Santa Claus, etc. All
of the children were given parts in the "Christmas Cookies" play; AFAIK,
they did not have the opportunity to opt out, even had they wanted to (I
have a hard time, personally, imagining a 5yo having the either intestinal
fortitude or level of theological understanding required to tell his teacher
that he wouldn't be participating in a classroom activity because it was
against his religion, but that's a separate issue). Parents were not
informed of the content of the "play", so parents did not really have the
option to request that their children not participate for religious reasons
either.
Now, in the above situation, do you see tolerance or intolerance based upon
your definition of each?
Barbara Bomberger
Clarkson) wrote:
>Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<3E0F513B...@comcast.net>...
>> Beth Clarkson wrote:
>
>> > Tolerance, in practice, means allowing others to do what they wish and
>> > not taking offense when none is meant.
But the problem is, that in most pre schools and elementary schools
_every_activity from Thanksgiving to Christmas is somehow Christmas
related. The word search has santa on it, add the numbers and solve
the puzzle and its a Christmas saying, and so on
This is the problem I have. Not with the fact that there is a
Christmas concert, party, games and whatever, but that it takes over a
month at the minimum of instructional time. Heck, I even remember
Christmas poems being used for language arts at one time!
Fortunately, at least at the nursery school and preschool level, this
has become less common in many places.
I am probably one of the more religious Christians here ( that arent
fundamentalist), and it appalls me. I have no problem per se with a
winter (even Christmas) concert, a holiday party, or a couple
activities those last few days before the break. That's fun, other
kids can opt out, and so on,
I don't believe that making a whole month full of educational time
about Christmas (or any other holiday) is appropriate. For one thing,
I think teachers have better things to do than plan lessons around
Christmas. For another, I think Christmas (even as a secular
celebration) should be celebrated in the home, not in the schools.
fortunately where I now am, we do not have these kinds of problems. A
last day of school party, a Winter HOliday concert, and we're done
with the school angle.
Barb
Ericka Kammerer
> As seen from within:
> * 4/22: Earth Day--Day to honor the Earth and to meditate on Deity
> manifesting as Mother Earth.
> <http://www.wheeloftheyear.com/uu.htm>
>
> And from without:
> As this pantheistic eco-religion labors to remake man in earth's image we
> can already see it flex its religious muscles in several normal ways: in
> its establishment of new holy days (e.g. Earth Day)...
> <http://www.pantheist.net/society/workman.html>
Well, but those are two examples from neo-pagan
sites! You could make an equal claim that Independence
Day is a religious holiday because my church will list
that day on its calendar as a day to ask God to bless
our country and thank God for our freedom to worship
as we please ;-)
Neo-pagans would very much *like* Earth Day to
be a religious holiday, but they don't seem to have
made a whole lot of progress on that front.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Banty
>
>On 30 Dec 2002 08:02:56 -0800, newsg...@bethclarkson.com (Beth
>Clarkson) wrote:
>
>>Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:<3E0F513B...@comcast.net>...
>>> Beth Clarkson wrote:
>>
>>> > Tolerance, in practice, means allowing others to do what they wish and
>>> > not taking offense when none is meant.
>
>But the problem is, that in most pre schools and elementary schools
>_every_activity from Thanksgiving to Christmas is somehow Christmas
>related. The word search has santa on it, add the numbers and solve
>the puzzle and its a Christmas saying, and so on
>
>This is the problem I have. Not with the fact that there is a
>Christmas concert, party, games and whatever, but that it takes over a
>month at the minimum of instructional time. Heck, I even remember
>Christmas poems being used for language arts at one time!
Oh, I'd completely agree. I have no problem with communities and schools
looking at this issue, and in a lot of cases coming to the conclusion that the
Xmas stuff has gone way past what's appropriate.
>
>Fortunately, at least at the nursery school and preschool level, this
>has become less common in many places.
This is my observation, too.
Banty
Banty
>
>Christopher Biow wrote:
>
>
>> As seen from within:
>> * 4/22: Earth Day--Day to honor the Earth and to meditate on Deity
>> manifesting as Mother Earth.
>> <http://www.wheeloftheyear.com/uu.htm>
>>
>> And from without:
>> As this pantheistic eco-religion labors to remake man in earth's image we
>> can already see it flex its religious muscles in several normal ways: in
>> its establishment of new holy days (e.g. Earth Day)...
>> <http://www.pantheist.net/society/workman.html>
>
>
> Well, but those are two examples from neo-pagan
>sites!
Well, SURE. And you're a Christian trying to say Christmas is a Christian
festival!
>You could make an equal claim that Independence
>Day is a religious holiday because my church will list
>that day on its calendar as a day to ask God to bless
>our country and thank God for our freedom to worship
>as we please ;-)
Duh.
>
> Neo-pagans would very much *like* Earth Day to
>be a religious holiday, but they don't seem to have
>made a whole lot of progress on that front.
But they've succeeded far enough so that there others who *agree* that it is
therefore eschew the marking of Earth Day for religious reasons. For their
kids, too. It seems that, by your reconing, therefore it's time to leave Earth
Day outside the school house door.
Or do new-Pagans and conservative Christians rate?
Banty
Beth Clarkson
> Beth Clarkson wrote:
> > I'll ask you the same thing I asked Naomi:
> >
> > Tolerance is allowing others to do what they like. Intolerance is
> > insisting that others behave as you consider appropriate. Tolerance
> > is allowing everyone to decide for themselves what celebration is
> > appropriate. Intolerance is making that decision for others based on
> > your own beliefs. Which are you advocating?
> >
> In my son's kindergarten class, virtually every language arts and fine arts
> activity in December involved some reference to Christmas symbolism, albeit
> of the "secular" variety--trees, Rudolph, stockings, Santa Claus, etc. All
> of the children were given parts in the "Christmas Cookies" play; AFAIK,
> they did not have the opportunity to opt out, even had they wanted to (I
> have a hard time, personally, imagining a 5yo having the either intestinal
> fortitude or level of theological understanding required to tell his teacher
> that he wouldn't be participating in a classroom activity because it was
> against his religion, but that's a separate issue). Parents were not
> informed of the content of the "play", so parents did not really have the
> option to request that their children not participate for religious reasons
> either.
Why would completing exercises that include secular Christmas symbols
be against someone's religion any more than exercises that include
Thanksgiving symbols? As I understand it, the play presented was also
devoid of any religious connotations, the content was secular
Christmas only. So what, exactly, is the objection based on religious
reasons?
> Now, in the above situation, do you see tolerance or intolerance based upon
> your definition of each?
I don't see what you've described as being 'tolerant' or 'intolerant'.
It's simply the current status quo in your school. Being tolerant
means accepting that and not expecting others to change their behavior
based solely on your belief that it's insensitive to those who don't
celebrate Christmas.
Maybe you're right, maybe it is insensitive and if that is the case it
would be appropriate for those who have objections to ask that the
school consider making changes. But to expect or demand that changes
be made, particularly in the absence of actual complaints from parents
in your school who don't celebrate Christmas I would consider
intolerant.
My rule of thumb is that when you demand that others change their
behavior rather than you accepting theirs, you are practicing
intolerance. When you request that they change, you are asking for
accomodation. While accomodation is appropriate at times, I think the
request for change should come from those who actually have
objections, not those who are worried that others *might* have
objections.
Beth Clarkson
Christopher Biow
Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Christopher Biow <bi...@ezmort.com> wrote:
>>Sharon Fitzgerald <saf...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>>>I suspect you are being devil's advocate here but I seriously doubt
>>>anyone truly believes there is one iota of religious content in Earth Day.
>>Would that be a Metric or English iota?
>> As seen from within:
>> * 4/22: Earth Day--Day to honor the Earth and to meditate on Deity
>> manifesting as Mother Earth.
>> <http://www.wheeloftheyear.com/uu.htm>
>> And from without:
>> As this pantheistic eco-religion labors to remake man in earth's image we
>> can already see it flex its religious muscles in several normal ways: in
>> its establishment of new holy days (e.g. Earth Day)...
>> <http://www.pantheist.net/society/workman.html>
> Well, but those are two examples from neo-pagan sites!
I claim only that they establish that someone believes there is at least an
iota of religious content in Earth Day. That refutes Sharon's statement. I
suspect a bit more Googling would provide many more references from
Evangelical Christians expressing indignation that this
UniUni/neo-pagan/SecularHumanist religious content is being foisted on
their children.
>You could make an equal claim that Independence Day is a
>religious holiday because my church will list
>that day on its calendar as a day to ask God to bless
>our country and thank God for our freedom to worship
>as we please ;-)
Mmm, no, these reference specifically establish that to these people it is
a "holy day" relating to a manifestation of "Diety" which they worship.
That is not remotely analogous to a mere presence on a calendar.
> Neo-pagans would very much *like* Earth Day to
>be a religious holiday, but they don't seem to have
>made a whole lot of progress on that front.
To the authors of these references, and to some of the Religious Right, it
*is* a religious holiday. To you it is not. To me, it is not primarily
religious, though I can imagine aspects or manners of celebration that
would be.
That's the whole point--religiosity is extremely subjective. US law will
step in only at such point that Earth Day celebration has both "purpose and
effect" of religious instruction, a standard that is probably reached
nowhere in the US public schools. If the author of the Wheel of the Year
site were to instruct children in a public school that they should
"meditate on Deity manifesting as Mother Earth", he'd clearly be crossing
that line. If he were to merely ask his kids to draw pictures of Mother
Earth, he probably wouldn't.
It's still a lousy analogy for Jewish schoolkids at Christmas, but it does
illustrate the slippery slope, if accommodation of religious objections
were to go so far as to effectively eliminating celebration of holidays
from school.
Hillary Israeli
Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote:
*Why would completing exercises that include secular Christmas symbols
*be against someone's religion any more than exercises that include
*Thanksgiving symbols? As I understand it, the play presented was also
*devoid of any religious connotations, the content was secular
*Christmas only. So what, exactly, is the objection based on religious
*reasons?
You aren't listening!
Christmas is definitely a Christian holiday. Ok, fine, it may have secular
aspects, whatever you say, I will go along with that. But in order to
avoid the APPEARANCE of participating in a Christian observance, most if
not all Jews will feel it is inappropriate to take part in such things.
Magi D. Shepley
know that there WILL be some theatrical/musical activity during the
month? How could the parents NOT know that, if only based on their own
experience? I recall that we did several small skits when I was in
elementary school, and there was always one or two involving Hanukkah...
and I was inevitably placed in that.
They made very little impression on me, because I couldn't tell you what
we did in Kindergarten through Fifth grades. I distinctly recall
reciting a Hanukkah poem with another Jewish student in 6th grade...
because I dressed as a piece of candy.
What made an impression on me was when we did the Alphabet (I was U)
getting to be a mouse in The Pied Piper in first grade, the Mother's Day
plays in 2nd grade, and the big musical in 5th grade (I was the lead
Chipmunk in Bambi and the understudy for Mother Deer).
Magi
Magi D. Shepley
know about the other religions that were in our area. I went to
Vacation Bible School with friends (I was ever so popular... the
churches gave out ice cream coupons and other prizes for bringing in a
non-member), and when I was in high school, I went to a friend's house
to make Christmas cookies and another friend's house to decorate their
tree. It hasn't changed my religion, except to make me appreciate my
own religion more. My mother also tried to get my friend's and their
parents to come with me to synongauge/Hebrew School when they did
special events, or to Rosh Hashana and Hanukkah and Passover dinners.
She was never very successful. :( Their parents weren't as tolerant or
desiring of knowledge as my mother was.
If they HAD been more tolerant, I might have gone to a friend's wedding:
You see, I wasn't invited because I was Jewish. Even though I
introduced her to her husband.
Magi
Circe
<Sigh> There were Christmas cookie angels. Are those religious, or are we
going to maintain that angels are secular symbols now, too?
Notwithstanding, see Hillary's response. She said it on behalf of observant
Jews as well or better than I could have done.
Add to that conservative Christian families for whom the "secular" symbolism
represents a perversion of their Christian belief (because it is either
pagan in origin or undermines by its very secularity the holiness of
Christmas) and I think you could have a fair number of people who might
object to these activities for religious reasons.
>
>> Now, in the above situation, do you see tolerance or intolerance
>> based upon your definition of each?
>
> I don't see what you've described as being 'tolerant' or 'intolerant'.
> It's simply the current status quo in your school. Being tolerant
> means accepting that and not expecting others to change their behavior
> based solely on your belief that it's insensitive to those who don't
> celebrate Christmas.
>
You've just changed your definition of tolerance, then. Above, you said that
tolerance required allowing everyone to decide for themselves what
celebration is appropriate. In what manner did the children who were in the
Christmas play "decide for themselves" what celebration was appropriate?
> Maybe you're right, maybe it is insensitive and if that is the case it
> would be appropriate for those who have objections to ask that the
> school consider making changes. But to expect or demand that changes
> be made, particularly in the absence of actual complaints from parents
> in your school who don't celebrate Christmas I would consider
> intolerant.
>
I have no idea whether there have been actual complaints from parents in my
school or not, however, nor do I have any way of knowing.
> My rule of thumb is that when you demand that others change their
> behavior rather than you accepting theirs, you are practicing
> intolerance.
So, it was "intolerant" of atheists to re quest that prayer be removed
from public schools? "Intolerant" of blacks to demand that segregation laws
be repealed? "Intolerant" of the disabled to request that public places be
made accessible to them?
Sorry, I don't see it that way.
> When you request that they change, you are asking for
> accomodation. While accomodation is appropriate at times, I think the
> request for change should come from those who actually have
> objections, not those who are worried that others *might* have
> objections.
>
Ah, I see. So as a white person, I would have had no business objecting to
Jim Crow laws...
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [7/22/97], Aurora [7/19/99], and Vernon's [3/2/02] mom)
Been there, done that, worn it on my T-shirt.
"The only problem with babies is they don't keep worth a darn." -- My
Mom
This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"The city needs to do more to incentivize business" -- local news
commentator
Hillary Israeli
Magi D. Shepley <ma...@concentric.net> wrote:
*I don't know about that. My mother firmly believed that I needed to
*know about the other religions that were in our area. I went to
*Vacation Bible School with friends (I was ever so popular... the
*churches gave out ice cream coupons and other prizes for bringing in a
*non-member), and when I was in high school, I went to a friend's house
*to make Christmas cookies and another friend's house to decorate their
*tree. It hasn't changed my religion, except to make me appreciate my
*own religion more. My mother also tried to get my friend's and their
*parents to come with me to synongauge/Hebrew School when they did
*special events, or to Rosh Hashana and Hanukkah and Passover dinners.
I respectfully submit that your story is not inconsistent with my
statement as regards the probable feelings of "most if not all" Jews.
Furthermore, if we're going to play deuling moms...my parents also firmly
believed I needed to know about other religions - so she taught me, and
when I was old enough, made sure I attended a comparative religion class.
I am really quite shocked to hear a Jewish woman sent her kid to bible
school in the name of educational experience. As far as the cookie making
at a friend's home, or tree-decorating at a friend's home, I believe many
fewer people would have a problem with that than if those activities were
taking place in a public school. You were able to choose to go to those
homes and do those things!
As regards not being invited to a friend's wedding because you're Jewish -
wow. Not much of a friend, I guess. That sucks!
-hillary, who was a bridesmaid in a Christian friend's wedding
Beth Clarkson
> In <e7c654e4.02123...@posting.google.com>,
> Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote:
>
> *Why would completing exercises that include secular Christmas symbols
> *be against someone's religion any more than exercises that include
> *Thanksgiving symbols? As I understand it, the play presented was also
> *devoid of any religious connotations, the content was secular
> *Christmas only. So what, exactly, is the objection based on religious
> *reasons?
>
> You aren't listening!
> Christmas is definitely a Christian holiday. Ok, fine, it may have secular
> aspects, whatever you say, I will go along with that. But in order to
> avoid the APPEARANCE of participating in a Christian observance, most if
> not all Jews will feel it is inappropriate to take part in such things.
Excuse me, but you are complaining about things like children working
math problems in December in the shape of a tree because it gives the
APPEARANCE of participating in a Christian religious observance?!!!
Am I understanding you correctly? And if so, why in the world would
you expect others to alter secular public school activities to the
extent necessary to avoid such any such appearances?
Hmmm. Just curious..what would be your opinion of Christian
Fundamentalists who complained about their kids math problems being in
the shape of pumpkin in October or having a class play about
trick-or-treating and wanted all public school Halloween activities
changed or curtailed in order that their children could avoid the
APPEARANCE of participating in a Satanist observance.
Beth Clarkson
Seems to me your current complaint has nothing to do with Christmas as
a religious holiday and everything to do with having an appropriate
balance and emphasis on it as one holiday among many. If St. Patrick's
day were similiarly emphasized, would you find it equally obnoxious?
Beth
CBI
"Beth Clarkson" <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote in message
news:e7c654e4.02123...@posting.google.com...
>
> Seems to me your current complaint has nothing to do with Christmas as
> a religious holiday and everything to do with having an appropriate
> balance and emphasis on it as one holiday among many. If St. Patrick's
> day were similiarly emphasized, would you find it equally obnoxious?
Would they be serving beer?
--
CBI
Barbara Bomberger
Clarkson) wrote:
Yes. But its not.
>
>
>Beth
Beth Clarkson
> Beth Clarkson wrote:
> > "Circe" <gua...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:<Tv%P9.4386$L61.5...@news1.west.cox.net>...
> >> Beth Clarkson wrote:
>
>
> So, it was "intolerant" of atheists to re quest that prayer be removed
> from public schools? "Intolerant" of blacks to demand that segregation laws
> be repealed? "Intolerant" of the disabled to request that public places be
> made accessible to them?
>
> Sorry, I don't see it that way.
>
Is intolerance never appropriate? Or are there times that intolerance
is the more appropriate reaction? I would maintain that yes, atheists
were being intolerant. Blacks were being intolerant. The disabled
were intolerant. The more important question is, was it an
appropriate reaction to the situation?
Is intolerance an appropriate reaction to having secular Christmas
parties in public schools?
Beth Clarkson
Magi D. Shepley
me... or rather, my mother. She sincerely dislikes what she sees in a
lot of people who don't know anything about other religions. I grew up
in a small town, and the town as a whole is very religiously
conservative. Actually,the town is very conservative, period. She sent
me as much for me to teach THEM (which I did, believe it or not... but
partly because the teachers were open-minded...). Also, its clear that
you don't know what "Vacation Bible School" is, if you think its simply
a Bible School. Its summer camp, evenings, for 3 or 4 days. One shot
thing. Why are you so surprised that my mom would do something like
that? Is it against the Jewish religion to learn about things that
other religions do? It wasn't last time I checked.
And while it may not have made me as tolerant as she would have liked, I
could refute the stupidity that the very intolerant Christians in my
community threw at me... "You killed Jesus!" "You're going to Burn in
Hell!" "You don't believe in Gd!" by simply showing them they were
wrong (all school libraries have Bibles, afterall!).
It also gave me a firm grounding so that I could stand up to the ADULTS
that said things like this. My best friend from middle and through high
school had very fundamentalist Christian parents. She is (now) just
like them. They didn't like me; I was a bad influence on her (so they
said). The first time I met her parents at her house, they didn't ask
me how I was doing or anything; they first quesiton I was asked was
"What Church Do You Go To", and the stunned silence when I replied, "I
don't go to church, I go to the orthodox shul downtown."
At which point their daughter stammered, "Oh, didn't I tell you? Magi's
Jewish."
I think if I had grown up sheltered, or only taught by my mom, I
wouldn't have had the strength to do that. Perhaps if you grew up in a
town with other Jewish children that you could be friends with... in
school, that might be different. I didn't have that luxury; my parents
are military, we were assigned to a particular location.
Magi
Marjorie Peskin
"Magi D. Shepley" <ma...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:3E0E6B48...@concentric.net...
> I think that Passover and Rosh Hashana are my favorite holidays because
> we always have friends over, and its a lot of fun. I always liked
> Purim, but being in a small town without a lot of Jewish friends, we
> only got to celebrate when I was little enough to go to the Jewish
> Community Center events.
I can't believe all you Jewish folks left out MY favorite Jewish Holiday,
Simchat Torah. Man, that's the most fun a kid can have, watching all the men
in the shul do that Russian dance on their knees holding a 90 lb Torah. It's
VERY impressive, and I love all the hakafot with the silly jokes. In the
shul I grew up in, it was a minhag to try and get the ba'al Torah to laugh
by doing all these funny tricks as he read bereshit. Throwing confetti,
singing silly songs, trickling water down his neck, etc. When I was a kid,
this was just about the baddest thing I could imagine my father actually
doing. I mean, he was so "behaved" the rest of the year, but not on Simchat
Torah. And all that candy. And dancing outside in front of the shul with the
Torah in a conga line. Just heaven! I still love it.
Sukkot would be my second favorite, because I love the idea of sleeping out
under the stars. Of course I grew up in, as my kids are growing up in,
California, where there aren't bugs and it doesn't rain that time of year. I
can see it being less fun in Toronto, for example. :-)
Then Pesach, then Rosh Hashona, then Purim, then Shavout. Yom Kippur is way
way down the list. ;-)
Marjorie
>
> Magi
>
> Irene wrote:
> > hil...@hillary.net (Hillary Israeli) wrote in message
news:<slrnb0ptsp....@manx.misty.com>...
> >
> >>In <e7c654e4.02122...@posting.google.com>,
> >>Beth Clarkson <newsg...@bethclarkson.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>*> Our schools do all the patriotic holidays (and make
> >>*> a big deal over them) plus a lot of school specific holidays
> >>*> where they celebrate school spirit or school accomplishments.
> >>*
> >>*Would you mind naming those holidays? Surely you're not referring to
> >>*Indepenence Day in July. If you mean President's day or Martin Luther
> >>
> >>Why not Independence Day? It's huge! I think it is my fourth biggest
> >>holiday celebration (I'd put it after the High Holidays, Thanksgiving,
New
> >>Year's, and Purim). It's certainly a much much MUCH bigger deal than,
say,
> >>Chanukah, as far as I am concerned! Christmas doesn't even register on
my
> >>radar. Really. I mean, I have a reasonable number of gentile friends but
I
> >>have not been invited to any Christmas celebrations (seems they all do
> >>family stuff) and my boss is Jewish so no Christmas stuff with him, so
> >>really it all kind of glosses past me and doesn't affect me.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Wait a second - where's Pesach on your list? That's got to be my
> > favorite Jewish holiday, and now that I'm a grownup, definitely the
> > biggest celebration. (My family never did a big event surrounding the
> > High Holidays - we went to services together, but no parties, not even
> > a big Break the Fast). I always liked Purim best as a kid, of course.
> > We also did big Thanksgiving and New Year's Eve stuff, too.
> >
> > Just curious - not at all relating to any actual debate here!
> >
> > Irene
>
Circe
> Hmmm. Just curious..what would be your opinion of Christian
> Fundamentalists who complained about their kids math problems being in
> the shape of pumpkin in October or having a class play about
> trick-or-treating and wanted all public school Halloween activities
> changed or curtailed in order that their children could avoid the
> APPEARANCE of participating in a Satanist observance.
Personally, I am sensitive to this point of view (partly because my MIL
holds it, so I know someone who finds it offensive) and believe Halloween is
equally out of place in public schools. I think you'll find that a
substantial proportion of the folks in this thread objecting the secular
Christmas in school also have problems with Halloween, Easter, St. Patrick's
Day, Valentine's Day, and so on.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [7/22/97], Aurora [7/19/99], and Vernon's [3/2/02] mom)
Been there, done that, worn it on my T-shirt.
"The only problem with babies is they don't keep worth a darn." -- My
Mom
This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Circe
> Seems to me your current complaint has nothing to do with Christmas as
> a religious holiday and everything to do with having an appropriate
> balance and emphasis on it as one holiday among many.
To some extent, you're correct. But I wouldn't find a similar curricular
emphasis on, say, Veterans Day nearly as offensive simply because it's not a
holiday with religious connotations (not that this is ever likely to
happen).
> If St. Patrick's
> day were similiarly emphasized, would you find it equally obnoxious?
>
Yes. Same answer for all religiously derived holidays. I have no objection
to the schools recognizing the existence of Christmas and discussing the
celebration of it; I *do* object to an several weeks' worth of activities
devoted to celebrating Christmas and effectively proseletyzing even the
secular version of it to children whose families may very well not celebrate
it.
Circe
> "Circe" <gua...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:<c85Q9.5294$L61.6...@news1.west.cox.net>...
>> Beth Clarkson wrote:
>>> "Circe" <gua...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:<Tv%P9.4386$L61.5...@news1.west.cox.net>...
>>>> Beth Clarkson wrote:
>> So, it was "intolerant" of atheists to re quest that prayer be
>> removed from public schools? "Intolerant" of blacks to demand that
>> segregation laws be repealed? "Intolerant" of the disabled to
>> request that public places be made accessible to them?
>>
>> Sorry, I don't see it that way.
>>
> Is intolerance never appropriate? Or are there times that intolerance
> is the more appropriate reaction? I would maintain that yes, atheists
> were being intolerant. Blacks were being intolerant. The disabled
> were intolerant. The more important question is, was it an
> appropriate reaction to the situation?
>
intolerance. If it is intolerant to stand by and accept injustices
perpetrated by the majority on the minority, then I'm all for more
intolerance!
> Is intolerance an appropriate reaction to having secular Christmas
> parties in public schools?
>
Honestly, I'm still trying to decide whether it is or not. At this point, I
feel that it is important to try to achieve balance and ensure that children
in public schools do not erroneously believe that celebrating Christmas is
an important or essential part of being an American. And I'm afraid that in
some schools (perhaps my own), this is not at all clear to the students.
Banty
>
>Beth Clarkson wrote:
>> Seems to me your current complaint has nothing to do with Christmas as
>> a religious holiday and everything to do with having an appropriate
>> balance and emphasis on it as one holiday among many.
>
>To some extent, you're correct. But I wouldn't find a similar curricular
>emphasis on, say, Veterans Day nearly as offensive simply because it's not a
>holiday with religious connotations (not that this is ever likely to
>happen).
>
>> If St. Patrick's
>> day were similiarly emphasized, would you find it equally obnoxious?
>>
>Yes. Same answer for all religiously derived holidays. I have no objection
>to the schools recognizing the existence of Christmas and discussing the
>celebration of it; I *do* object to an several weeks' worth of activities
>devoted to celebrating Christmas and effectively proseletyzing even the
>secular version of it to children whose families may very well not celebrate
>it.
I wonder what proportion of people on both "sides" of the debate here would get
on board to a proposal that Christmas school hooplay be limited to a week or
less in December. How much of this is a matter of *degree*. I think a lot,
actually, else we'd have the Valentine Day Dilemma, the Halloween Dilemma, the
Birthday Delimmma, and not just the December Dilemma - if it were really a
matter of principle.
Banty
Sam
> Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<3E0F513B...@comcast.net>...
> > Beth Clarkson wrote:
>
> > > Tolerance, in practice, means allowing others to do what they wish and
> > > not taking offense when none is meant.
>
>
> > This is a very one-sided view that assumes that only
> > one sort of interpretation is valid (that of the majority).
> >
>
> Well, I don't see it that way, but perhaps you can teach me another
> way to view tolerance and intolerance. I'm willing to listen. I may
> not agree, but I'm willing to be tolerant of others having different
> viewpoints.
>
> I'll ask you the same thing I asked Naomi:
>
> Tolerance is allowing others to do what they like. Intolerance is
> insisting that others behave as you consider appropriate. Tolerance
> is allowing everyone to decide for themselves what celebration is
> appropriate. Intolerance is making that decision for others based on
> your own beliefs. Which are you advocating?
>
Ah, but let's say the teacher let the kids run around all day and
never do any math. Should that be excused on the basis of tolerance?
Little Johnny goes up and hits Mary twice a day. Is it intolerance to
say that this is inappropriate?
Of course not.
Similarly, let's say Johnny has a birthday, he has cupcakes for
everyone in the class but Tommy who he doesn't like. Would it be
tolerance to let Johnny give out the cupcakes and let Tommy be left
out? Or should the teacher put his foot down.
Tolerance doesn't say that everything has to be everyone. It is not
intolerance to say that the minister cannot come into the school and
preach in the middle of lunch. It would be intollerance to forbid him
to preach in his own church.
The same is true of Christmas. As a religious holiday, it should be
celebrated in Church, not in the schools. To do otherwise is to pass
out the cupcakes to everyone in the class except for the Jews (or,
worse yet, encourage them to celebrate a religion other than their own
in blatant contradiction of separation of church and state.)
Hillary Israeli
Magi D. Shepley <ma...@concentric.net> wrote:
*We're not playing "dueling moms", so I'm not sure why you're attacking
*me... or rather, my mother. She sincerely dislikes what she sees in a
Whoah. I attacked your mother?? I don't see how or where, but I am sorry
you feel that way.
*partly because the teachers were open-minded...). Also, its clear that
*you don't know what "Vacation Bible School" is, if you think its simply
My understanding is that it is a Bible School run during the summer for
kids. Is that wrong?
*thing. Why are you so surprised that my mom would do something like
*that?
Because most Jewish people do not send their kids to Christian-run,
Christian-oriented schools to learn about other religions. Do you disagree
with my statement?
*Is it against the Jewish religion to learn about things that
*other religions do? It wasn't last time I checked.
No, and I don't believe I ever said it was, or even implied that it was.
In fact I stated that I was sent to study comparative religion!
I'm leaving my previous post here as quoted material so you can, if you
like, review it and show me where the attack was.
*> I respectfully submit that your story is not inconsistent with my
*> statement as regards the probable feelings of "most if not all" Jews.
*>
*> Furthermore, if we're going to play deuling moms...my parents also firmly
*> believed I needed to know about other religions - so she taught me, and
*> when I was old enough, made sure I attended a comparative religion class.
*> I am really quite shocked to hear a Jewish woman sent her kid to bible
*> school in the name of educational experience. As far as the cookie making
*> at a friend's home, or tree-decorating at a friend's home, I believe many
*> fewer people would have a problem with that than if those activities were
*> taking place in a public school. You were able to choose to go to those
*> homes and do those things!
*>
*> As regards not being invited to a friend's wedding because you're Jewish -
*> wow. Not much of a friend, I guess. That sucks!
*>
*> -hillary, who was a bridesmaid in a Christian friend's wedding
take care,
Hillary