Speak ENGLISH better!
RRoza
j.d.c...@radiolink.net
adjective and can, therefore, only be applied to nouns and in this
phrase it tries to qualify the verb 'to speak'.
You could say 'Speak better English', here better qualifies the noun
English.
Franke
> You can't say 'Speak English better! Better is a comparative
> adjective and can, therefore, only be applied to nouns and in this
> phrase it tries to qualify the verb 'to speak'.
What about in the sentence "Speak English better than you do now", or
just plain old "Speak better [not better English but just 'be a better
speaker'] than you do now"?
"Better than" is a legitimate idiom in English. Even if it is (I'm not
sure about it) acceptable only in spoken English, your exclamatory
condemnation is dead wrong. You can say it but you should not write it
in formal English.
OTOH, if you are going to invoke grammatical arguments for or against a
particular usage, you had better check your grammar sources much more
carefully. "better" is also an adverb, and a very old one for English.
Here's what the Merriam Webster New Collegiate 10th ed. says about it:
3 better adv, (12c)
1
a : in a more excellent manner
b : to greater advantage : preferably <some things are ~ left unsaid>
2
a : to a higher or greater degree <he knows the story ~ than you do>
b : more <it is ~ than nine miles to the next town>
nok...@radiolink.net
>j.d.c...@radiolink.net wrote:
>
>> You can't say 'Speak English better! Better is a comparative
>> adjective and can, therefore, only be applied to nouns and in this
>> phrase it tries to qualify the verb 'to speak'.
>
>What about in the sentence "Speak English better than you do now"
No, this is wrong!
I Speak better English than you do now
, or
>just plain old "Speak better [not better English but just 'be a better
>speaker'] than you do now"?
That's ok! - be a better speaker! Speaker *is* a noun!
You can't 'speak better' you can 'speak more correctly'
>"Better than" is a legitimate idiom in English. Even if it is (I'm not
>sure about it) acceptable only in spoken English, your exclamatory
>condemnation is dead wrong. You can say it but you should not write it
>in formal English.
I would dispute that in the cause of preserving the language.
>
>OTOH, if you are going to invoke grammatical arguments for or against a
>particular usage, you had better check your grammar sources much more
>carefully. "better" is also an adverb, and a very old one for English.
>Here's what the Merriam Webster New Collegiate 10th ed. says about it:
Well some strange dictionary can always be found.
Particularly American ones!
Franke
since Beowulf, here is what the OED2 CD-ROM British English Dictionary says
about "better":
"better, a., (n.), and adv. Forms: 12 betera, 14 betere, 34 betre, 36
bettre, 4 beter, bettar, -ur, -yr, 45 bettir, 5 bettere, bettyrer (Cath.
Angl.).
[Com. Teut.: OE. (sing. masc.) betera = OFris. betera, OS. betiro (Du.
beter-, OHG. be_iro, mod.G. besser-e), Goth. batiza:–OTeut. *batiz-on-, used
as the compar. of goo-z good, but itself pointing to a positive stem extant
in no Teutonic lang., and prob. wanting also in OTeut. The root bat- was
prob. related to bet-: see beet v. and boot v. Fick and Kluge have compared
Skr. bhadrá-s salutary, benign.]"
Please observe that it says adjective, noun, and adverb. Here's more to
absorb:
"4. a. In the predicate, after be, the neuter adj. formerly interchanged
with the adv. bet, and its grammatical character is still dubious: the
positive of "it is better to go" may be either "it is good" or "it is
well".’ Cf. bet adv. 2. The dubiety is still greater in elliptical
expressions, as in quot. 1553, 1667, 1837. See below, B 3." And here is "B
3.":
"3. In the predicate, after be, the adv. and adj. run together: see A 4. In
some cases the adverbial character seems more prominent.
157087 Holinshed Scot. Chron. (1806) II. 75, I will here (being better late
than never) set down this."
But the "better" above is not used in the same sense as in "speak English
better". The quotes below, though, are [The question marks in square
brackets are there because my Chinese OS screws up some characters in
English programs like the OED]:
"B. adv.
[The original adverbial form was bet, which survived till c 1600. See that
word as to its gradual displacement by better.]
1. In a more excellent way, in a superior manner.
c1240 Lofsong in Lamb. Hom. 215 þu wult..don betere bi me an is [?]t ich
wilni.
c1250 Gen. & Ex. 1585 [?]u salt [?] betre sped.
c1394 P. Pl. Crede 95 Fond to don betere.
c1400 Apol. Loll. 26 Mak hem to drede synne & to do bettar.
1530 Palsgr. 147, I drinke better than I syng.
1677 Moxon Mech. Exerc. (1703) 194 The better to come at it with the Tool.
1797 Ld. Nelson in Duncan Life (1806) 44 The sooner the better.
Mod. Until he learns to behave better.
2. a. In a superior degree.
a1225 St. Marher. 4 An't he hefde betere bi[?]ht him.
c1230 Hali Meid. 37 þat ha..witen [?] beter hwat ham beo to don.
a1300 Cursor M. 2438 He loued hir..better than he did are.
c1400 Destr. Troy xix. 8083 For to hold hym in hope, & hert hym the bettur.
1471 Paston Lett. 681 III. 23 That shall dysse avayll him better than a CC.
marc.
1475 Caxton Jason 77 b, They had him better in grace than zethephius.
1577 B. Googe Heresbach’s Husb. (1586) 65 Where-by it [sage] prospereth the
better.
1666 Bunyan Grace Ab. _50, I better considering the matter.
1771 Junius Lett. lii. 266, I know that man much better than any of you.
1848 Macaulay Hist. Engl. I. 435 But there were in the palace a few persons
who knew better."
You appear to be 400 years out of date, according to your own countrymen who
know better than do you and I.
Who shall we all believe, Mr Murray or you?
There is more below, by the way.
nok...@radiolink.net wrote:
> On 30 Jun 2000 11:06:19 GMT, Franke <fra...@ksts.seed.net.tw> wrote:
>
> >j.d.c...@radiolink.net wrote:
> >
> >> You can't say 'Speak English better! Better is a comparative
> >> adjective and can, therefore, only be applied to nouns and in this
> >> phrase it tries to qualify the verb 'to speak'.
> >
> >What about in the sentence "Speak English better than you do now"
>
> No, this is wrong!
> I Speak better English than you do now
>
> , or
> >just plain old "Speak better [not better English but just 'be a better
> >speaker'] than you do now"?
>
> That's ok! - be a better speaker! Speaker *is* a noun!
>
> You can't 'speak better' you can 'speak more correctly'
I'm afraid that I cannot agree with this point. First, either you speak
correctly or you do not speak correctly--"correct" is not gradable, at least
not in its preserved form. To be pedantic about it, you can say that "most
of what s/he said was said (spoken) correctly, but some was not. More of
what you said, however, was said (spoken) correctly and less was said
(spoken) incorrectly." There are many people who speak perfect English and
say nothing. There are others who speak "incorrect" English and say much
worth listening to.
> >"Better than" is a legitimate idiom in English. Even if it is (I'm not
> >sure about it) acceptable only in spoken English, your exclamatory
> >condemnation is dead wrong. You can say it but you should not write it
> >in formal English.
>
> I would dispute that in the cause of preserving the language.
>
The last time I checked, English wasn't pickled, salted, or canned in sugary
syrup like herring, pork, or yellow cling peaches. English is a living
language and constantly changing.
> >OTOH, if you are going to invoke grammatical arguments for or against a
> >particular usage, you had better check your grammar sources much more
> >carefully. "better" is also an adverb, and a very old one for English.
> >Here's what the Merriam Webster New Collegiate 10th ed. says about it:
>
> Well some strange dictionary can always be found.
> Particularly American ones!
I grant you that. The OED is one of the strangest ever written--so many
unnerving examples of how the great writers of the past millennium have used
the language and how the language has changed again and again and again.
The generally recognized authorities on English (not American) grammar,
however, Quirk, Greenbaum, Leech, and Svartvik say in their _A Comprehensive
Grammar of English_, 1st ed., section 7.83 Comparison of adverbs (p. 463),
'For a small number of adverbs, the inflected forms used for comparison are
the same as those for adjectives. As with adjectives, there is a small group
with comparatives and superlatives formed from different stems. The
comparative and superlative inflections are identical with those for the
corresponding adjectives "good", "bad", and "far" (cf. 7.75), and the
quantifiers "much" and "little" (cf. 5.23):
badly ~worse ~worst
well ~better ~best
little ~less (lesser) ~least
far {~further ~furthest
{~farther ~farthest
much ~more ~most
. . . . . . . .
(c) "Lesser" is sometimes used in coparison to a lower degree:
"lesser-known", in the same was as "less well-known". There is also a lower
degree comparative "less well" [= "worse"], as in
He reads "less well" than she does.
"Less well" here indicates that his reading is not as bad as "worse" does
(cf. 7.77). There is no corresponding higher-degree comparative *"more well"
= "better".'
nok...@radiolink.net
adverbial use is allowable. But I still don't like it much. I liken
its use to that of split infinitives and split participles. These
days technically OK but they don't sound nice do they.
One could, I suppose, invoke other instances:
"It is easier for a camel to go though the eye of a needle"
= easier to go = go more easily ?
neelu...@gmail.com
> For more information, send e-mail request to RR...@aol.com