ESL teaching in English only
David Fisher
I get the impression that in an ESL class, English is usually the only
language spoken. If this is true, then how does someone who knows very
little English understand what the teacher is talking about ? I can imagine
holding up a spoon and saying "spoon", but how would the teacher explain
more abstract things like tenses without using the language of the student ?
I hope this doesn't sound like a silly question -
Thanks,
David Fisher
Mike987
English lessons in school, so they are not complete beginners. They
will also often have picked up some English from listening to English
language popular music. It's quite rare to be teaching genuine
beginners with no English at all.
2. When teaching young children, they are very good at associating
objects and words, so one can quickly build vocabulary. However,
giving instructions can be an issue, so there's usually a native
language speaker in the classroom acting as an assistant.
3. One tries to introduce new elements of language in a gradual and
structured manner, so one won't be trying to explain abstract concepts
until the learners already have a fairly solid grasp of the basics of
the language.
4. Tenses are usually introduced using a "time line" - basically a
left to right arrow, with "now" marked. Tenses are then either
"points" or "periods" on the line.
Mxsmanic
> I get the impression that in an ESL class, English is usually the only
> language spoken.
That depends on the circumstances. Some ESL classes are taught in other
languages.
> If this is true, then how does someone who knows very
> little English understand what the teacher is talking about ?
You start simple, and work up from there. Yes, it is very
time-consuming. Berlitz does this, and it works, but it's slow,
especially at the beginning.
If all your students speak a non-English language in which you are also
fluent, you can save a lot of time by explaining certain concepts,
vocabulary, etc., in their native language. But if you have a class of
people from all different cultures with many different native languages,
you have no choice but to use English as the only language for teaching.
Additionally, it's important not to speak another language any more than
necessary. Students learn faster when forced to use English.
> I can imagine holding up a spoon and saying "spoon", but how
> would the teacher explain more abstract things like tenses
> without using the language of the student ?
In similar ways, using visual aids, drawings, etc. Fine points of
grammar can be ignored or taught empirically until students are advanced
enough to understand detailed explanations.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Django Cat
No, it doesn't. In fact in some ways it's the fundamental question
about what goes on in an ESL classroom.
For about 100 years ESL teachers have been talking about the 'Direct
Method' - using the target language as the medium of instruction, but
to some extent this is a theory which makes a dogma out of a
necessity. If you have monolingual classes in the students' own
country you might want to give instructions in the students' own
language, but then you might be there short-term and may not speak it
at all, or (as has happened to me in Greece and Italy) speak the
students' language at a level embarrassingly worse than they speak
yours (sometimes students think you're just pretending to do this
which is nice - especially as over the years you tend to pick up the
ability to work out a lot of what students say even when you don't
have a common language). However, if you're teaching in an English
speaking country you will have mixed language groups, and having any
one group's language won't help - in fact in some ways it hinders. At
the moment my classes in the UK have Iranian, Palestinian, Chinese,
Japanese, Libyan, Angolan, Polish, Spanish, Taiwanese and Thai
students and probably some others I've forgotten. In fact they're in
a far better position to learn than their fellow students in overseas
monolingual groups - not only are they living surrounded by the target
culture and language, but if they're the only speaker of their
language in the class they have to use language to learn about
language and can't say to their mate 'I haven't a clue what this guy
is on about...'
As Mike points out, it used to be a given that you rarely met any
students with no English at all. However, this has changed quite a
lot in the UK of the last few years, mainly due to the numbers of
refugees arriving from the Middle East, the Balkans, Francophone
Africa... this can lead to classes where students:-
* don't speak a single word of English - and I mean not even 'yes' and
'no';
* have never used the western alphabet;
* are not literate in any written form of their own language.
This, then, is tough - certainly the hardest work I've had to do in 20
years teaching.
> I can imagine
> holding up a spoon and saying "spoon", but how would the teacher explain
> more abstract things like tenses without using the language of the student ?
Yup, that's about it, but just think about it in the long run, it
might go something like this:-
Lesson 1 "spoon"
Lesson 5 "I've got a spoon..."
Lesson 8 "He/she/they/we has/have got a spoon..."
Lesson 9 "I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts" - no, sorry, forget
that one.
Lesson 26 "Yesterday I had a spoon..."
Lesson 37 "When we talk about 'yesterday', that's in the past, and for
that we use the 'past tense...'" (by this stage, students should have
the confidence that they don't have to understand every word to get
the gist of what you're saying, - but also, you repeat, paraphrase,
mime, sing a song, do a dance, give lots of different examples, maybe
even ask Carlo who *has* understood to explain in Italian to Luigi who
*hasn't* - this is actually cheating, but I do it anyway...)
So it can be done and it's very gratifying when you start with
students at the "spoon" stage and after a few months they really want
to talk about the football on the box last night and you can't shut
them up.
Hope this is of some interest
Django
David Fisher
best way to learn a new language is to be immersed in an environment where
only that language is spoken.
Another question: Do you find that different students learn language in
different ways ? I am thinking mainly of the difference between of a focus
on grammar, structure, etc. which might suit more "logic oriented" people,
as opposed to giving them lots of exposure to the language and letting them
discover the rules for themselves in a more "intuitive" way.
Thanks for your thoughts,
David Fisher
shl113
I'm from China where English learning is extremely important for
almost everyone. But in most of the schools, teachers still ues more
Chinese than english to teach, especially analysing grammatical points
which are crucial for chinese students to get a high score when taking
English examinations. I wonder it is taught all by English, can
students fully understand those key points and do well in
examinations? My point is that probably in different situation,
different teaching methods should be emplyed.
Mxsmanic <mxsm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<tp4r40ltg9hctjbc5...@4ax.com>...
Mxsmanic
> I'm from China where English learning is extremely important for
> almost everyone. But in most of the schools, teachers still ues more
> Chinese than english to teach, especially analysing grammatical points
> which are crucial for chinese students to get a high score when taking
> English examinations.
Chinese students have a reputation for widespread cheating, since they
often study English only in order to pass exams and gain credentials,
not for the purpose of actually speaking the language.
There are a lot of other Third World English students in the same
category, from what I've heard.
> I wonder it is taught all by English, can
> students fully understand those key points and do well in
> examinations?
Students can learn to speak, read, and write English fluently. But it
doesn't sound like that is important to you.
If all they want to do is pass exams, why not just set up an Internet
site where they can download the answers to facilitate cheating their
way to whatever credential they seek?
> My point is that probably in different situation,
> different teaching methods should be emplyed.
What you are describing is not teaching English, it is coaching for an
exam. Students in this case aren't learning English at all. But I
suppose they do pass their exams.
Mxsmanic
> Thanks for the replies, everyone - very interesting ! I have heard that the
> best way to learn a new language is to be immersed in an environment where
> only that language is spoken.
That's how we all learn our first language. It works very well,
although it's quite slow and inefficient at times (it takes many years
for us to master a first language, for example).
> Another question: Do you find that different students learn language in
> different ways ? I am thinking mainly of the difference between of a focus
> on grammar, structure, etc. which might suit more "logic oriented" people,
> as opposed to giving them lots of exposure to the language and letting them
> discover the rules for themselves in a more "intuitive" way.
Children learn faster by immersion, and usually do well on pronunciation
and verbal fluency, whereas they take a very long time to master
grammar. Adults are the other way around. I don't know that there are
any other types of differences. And all students eventually reach the
same level in each area, allowing for individual variations, of course.
Mike987
visual, auditory and kinaesthetic. Each student has a predominant
mode.
For example, my primary mode is visual, so in learning a foreign
language, I prefer to master the alphabet and learn the grammar before
making much headway in speaking the language fluently. And I learn
more from reading the language than from hearing it.
An auditory student will make best progress from hearing the language
and imitating what he/she hears.
Kinaesthetic students enjoy playing physical games to learn the
language, and are often the "have a go" type when it comes to speaking
a foreign language.
In the classroom we try to balances activities to include all three
learning modes, and to encourage students to use their non-primary
modes in language acquisition, since this helps balance their skills.
Django Cat
Yes, that has to be correct - I always think of the push/pull scenario
- walk up to a door in the target language country and there's a word
on it. Does it mean 'push' or 'pull'? You push. You bang your nose
on the door. You've just learnt the word 'pull' (maybe not
consciously which is, however, another whole story...). Then you get
on the bus and don't know how to ask for a single ticket, so you ask a
helpful local. It's a bit embarressing so you make sure you remember
the word next time. This sort of thing happens 50 times as you
explore in the first week...
Another approach is to lock people away in an environment where only
the target language is spoken. I spent a year doing this with
international business people on ultra-intensive courses in an
isolated manor house in the depths of Hampshire. Students had to speak
English from breakfast till bedtime. It was mind-numbingly difficult
for both students and teachers. Much vodka was drunk and both staff
and students were often seen running away across the fields chased by
a large red balloon (think Patrick McGoohan in 'The Prisoner'). How
much long-term effect it had is hard to say.
In fact some writers in the field of Second Language Acquisition think
that immersion in the target culture is *only* way in which a language
can be learnt, and that nothing which happens in the classroom makes
any difference to the process one way or another (I'm thinking Ellis
if anyone cares). Of course, this begs the question of what it means
to learn a language - do you want to be able to order a meal in a
restaurant and ask for directions in the street? To have a reasonably
complex conversation? Or to pass for a native speaker? It also is
little help if you happen to live in Central China with no contact at
all with native speakers but want to learn English, not to mention
being just a tad dispiriting to those of us that make a living
attempting to teach languages in classrooms.
> Another question: Do you find that different students learn language in
> different ways ? I am thinking mainly of the difference between of a focus
> on grammar, structure, etc. which might suit more "logic oriented" people,
Yes, but I've never been particularly aware that, say, science
students are better at grammar while arts students learn vocabulalry
faster. What is most significant is the nature of the student's first
language and, as Shl113 points out, the way they have previously been
taught. Some students don't actually understand that you can use the
language to communicate - they've been brought up to think of the
language as something to study. There's a story about this sort of
thing at http://cutupletters.blogspot.com/2002_08_01_cutupletters_archive.html
under Friday, August 02, 2002.
> as opposed to giving them lots of exposure to the language and letting them
> discover the rules for themselves in a more "intuitive" way.
In the literature this is called 'noticing'. You keep saying
"yesterday I had a spoon" until the students start asking themselves
"why 'had' not 'have'? Hang on, 'yesterday'... that's the past, hmm,
something going on here..." It's possibly a more natural approach but
not always the fastest way of doing things, and it also may rely on
factors in the student's own language. Does their language have a
concept of tenses? I'm told some African languages either only
differentiate 'now' from 'other time' or don't deal with time forms at
all - relying on students 'noticing' may put some learners in a mixed
language class at an unfair advantage.
Chairs
DCC
John Ramsay
David Fisher wrote:
Simple. The teacher going to teach ESL in a strange foreign land
gets an English-other language picture dictionary ahead of time.
Much easier than holding up a spoon -:)
The teacher in an English speaking locale teaching immigrants
makes sure he has picture dictionaries for the various native
languages of the students.
Literate students can bring standard dictionaries, or electronic ones.
In class it's best to speak English as much as possible but when both
students
and teacher know a bit of each others language it is no longer
considered
inappropriate to help each other out.
Enrico C
news:efb61383.04031...@posting.google.com
> and students were often seen running away across the fields
> chased by a large red balloon (think Patrick McGoohan in 'The
> Prisoner').
uh? :)
--
Enrico C
"The fad of today is the orthodoxy of tomorrow."
shl113
Chinese students! I admit Chinese students have less opportunities to
practise speaking which is really a pity(it attributes to the Chinese
education system).However, they are good at reading and writing
because they have a sound grammar compared with English learners from
other countries.I know a friend from Germany,her oral English is
fairly good,but if you look at what she writes,you'll be soooo alarmed
how many mistakes she makes! So don't you think your opinion is not
quite objective.
Mxsmanic <mxsm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<649t4014o5r6djrse...@4ax.com>...
Mxsmanic
> It's not appropriate for you to use the word "cheating" to describe
> Chinese students!
Why not? That's what many of them are doing. Plagiarism and similar
methods that fraudulently misrepresent the student's capacities are all
cheating.
> I admit Chinese students have less opportunities to
> practise speaking which is really a pity(it attributes to the Chinese
> education system).However, they are good at reading and writing
> because they have a sound grammar compared with English learners from
> other countries.
What does this have to do with cheating?
> I know a friend from Germany,her oral English is
> fairly good,but if you look at what she writes,you'll be soooo alarmed
> how many mistakes she makes! So don't you think your opinion is not
> quite objective.
She can just steal the material for her written work off the Internet
and submit that in class. It works for other students. And the
objective is really just to pass a test and obtain a credential, anyway.
Django Cat
> Django Cat | misc.education.language.english in
> news:efb61383.04031...@posting.google.com
>
> > and students were often seen running away across the fields
> > chased by a large red balloon (think Patrick McGoohan in 'The
> > Prisoner').
>
> uh? :)
'The Prisoner' is a cult British TV series from the 1960s. Patrick
McGoohan plays a spy who decides to resign - but then he's gassed and
wakes up as a prisoner in a mysterious seaside village. There are
other inhabitants, but everyone is known only by numbers - McGoohan's
character is Number 6 - but are they also prisoners or just stooges?
Anyone who attempts to escape across the sands is hunted down and
killed by 'Rover', a giant bouncing balloon - I know this sounds very
silly, but it's genuinely creepy and gave me nightmares as a child.
Anyway, 'The Prisoner' is easily Googled and well worth finding on DVD
or satelite - great English practice too! ;)
In the series Number 6 is disoriented, doesn't know where he is, why
he's there, who's in charge or who to trust.
Now why did that make me think of total immersion language training?
Be seeing you,
DCC
Django Cat
Well, for a start you only need one picture dictionary. The students
already know the word in their own language.
But the OP's question is about explaining abstract concepts. Show me a
picture dictionary that explains 'disappointed' or clearly
differentiates pairs like 'interesting/interested' 'excited/exciting'
'amazing/amazed', or even an old favourite that came up this morning,
'too' v 'very' and you can put me down for a copy.
DC
Django Cat
Django Cat
Well that's one-fifth of the world's population and one German girl
written off. What are you planning for afters?
DC
Mxsmanic
> Well that's one-fifth of the world's population and one German girl
> written off. What are you planning for afters?
I'm not planning anything at all, just making observations. Some
cultures accept and even encourage what Westerners would call cheating.
Typically these are cultures that emphasize the credentials and the
titles rather than the substance of learning.
Enrico C
news:efb61383.0403...@posting.google.com
> Enrico C <enri...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> news:<Xns94A8CA56C...@news.lillathedog.net>...
>> Django Cat | misc.education.language.english in
>> news:efb61383.04031...@posting.google.com
>>
>> > and students were often seen running away across the fields
>> > chased by a large red balloon (think Patrick McGoohan in 'The
>> > Prisoner').
>>
>> uh? :)
>
> 'The Prisoner' is a cult British TV series from the 1960s.
> Patrick McGoohan plays a spy who decides to resign - but then
> he's gassed and wakes up as a prisoner in a mysterious seaside
> village. There are other inhabitants, but everyone is known
> only by numbers - McGoohan's character is Number 6 - but are
> they also prisoners or just stooges? Anyone who attempts to
> escape across the sands is hunted down and killed by 'Rover', a
> giant bouncing balloon - I know this sounds very silly, but it's
> genuinely creepy and gave me nightmares as a child. Anyway, 'The
Ha! *That* prisoner!
It was broadcasted in Italy too. I was fond of it but I don't
remember much of it now. Yes, a sort of puzzling nightmare, with big
umbrellas and strange things happening. The guy always tried to
escape, he apparently succeeded, then "they" always got him back
somehow :-(
> Prisoner' is easily Googled and well worth finding on DVD or
> satelite - great English practice too! ;)
Yep. Good idea!
I've just done some search: Play.com sells the 5 discs set for £48.99
delivered or the 5 separate discs for £7.99 each.
Maybe I'll go for disc 1, for a start :)
> In the series Number 6 is disoriented, doesn't know where he is,
> why he's there, who's in charge or who to trust.
> Now why did that make me think of total immersion language
> training?
Though, maybe giant red balloons for non-cooperative students would
make a 100 per cent success rate [dead pupils not being included in
the statistics]
;-))
> Be seeing you,
> DCC
>
Cheers!
Mxsmanic
> The guy always tried to
> escape, he apparently succeeded, then "they" always got him back
> somehow :-(
He succeeded in the last episode.
Enrico C
news:bm625057s4rf3fb2u...@4ax.com
> Enrico C writes:
>
>> The guy always tried to
>> escape, he apparently succeeded, then "they" always got him back
>> somehow :-(
>
> He succeeded in the last episode.
But... that's a spoiler!
(thirty-forty years later or so :-)
Django Cat
> Enrico C writes:
>
> > The guy always tried to
> > escape, he apparently succeeded, then "they" always got him back
> > somehow :-(
>
> He succeeded in the last episode.
!!!!!!!!SPOILER ALERT - DONT READ IF YOU'RE PLANNING TO WATCH 'THE
PRISONER'!!!!!!
In the last episode Number 6 finds out he is really Number 1 - he's
actually in charge.
A lot like all those stropy and rebellious teachers who somehow
metamorphose into difficult and authoritarian Directors of Studies.
DC Cat - not a number, a human being.
Mxsmanic
> In the last episode Number 6 finds out he is really Number 1 - he's
> actually in charge.
I was unable to understand anything in that last episode. It seemed
like the typical drug-fogged copout of the Sixties, with no real
meaning. All I was able to extract from it is that Number 6 finally
escaped.
John Ramsay
Django Cat wrote:
In written form? A problem in teaching ESL is that
students may not be literate in their native language.
>
>
> But the OP's question is about explaining abstract concepts. Show me a
> picture dictionary that explains 'disappointed' or clearly
> differentiates pairs like 'interesting/interested' 'excited/exciting'
> 'amazing/amazed', or even an old favourite that came up this morning,
> 'too' v 'very' and you can put me down for a copy.
>
> DC
You do not seem to have read the OP and my
reply too closely.
It's obviously a big step from 'holding up a spoon'
to teaching abstract concepts. That's why I said
literate students can bring a standard dictionary.
Mxsmanic
> It's obviously a big step from 'holding up a spoon'
> to teaching abstract concepts.
Not so. Just show them _The Matrix_ on DVD.
Django Cat
> Django Cat writes:
>
> > In the last episode Number 6 finds out he is really Number 1 - he's
> > actually in charge.
>
> I was unable to understand anything in that last episode. It seemed
> like the typical drug-fogged copout of the Sixties, with no real
> meaning. All I was able to extract from it is that Number 6 finally
> escaped.
> I was unable to understand anything
It was probably the bizarre intonation Micks.
DC
Django Cat
Mmm, yes, I think *I* introduced that point. But it doesn't matter if
the students can read the word or not, if you're using an L2 picture
dictionary they don't get the written form in their own language; it's
the picture that defines what the teacher is talking about.
> You do not seem to have read the OP and my
> reply too closely.
>
Well, I did. Let me know where you think I'm missing the point.
With respect, are you actually involved in ESL/EFL teaching, or just
indulging in speculation here?
DC
Django Cat
> Django Cat writes:
>
> > In the last episode Number 6 finds out he is really Number 1 - he's
> > actually in charge.
>
> I was unable to understand anything in that last episode. It seemed
> like the typical drug-fogged copout of the Sixties, with no real
> meaning. All I was able to extract from it is that Number 6 finally
> escaped.
PS - You touch me not. I'm a child of the 70's.
DC
Enrico C
news:efb61383.04031...@posting.google.com
> Mxsmanic <mxsm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Would that be difficult to understand for a non native speaker?
Django Cat
No, I'm just teasing Mxs about that earlier UK/US pronunciation thread.
In fact I think TV from the 60s might be *easier* to understand - the
acting conventions possibly included more defined turn taking and clearer
speech and McGoohan in particular had a great speaking voice.
DC
John Ramsay
Django Cat wrote:
Depends on the approach. Many jurisdictions in the
US employ a bilingual approach with Hispanic students,
in which case a bilingual picture dictionary would be
a logical start.
>
>
> > You do not seem to have read the OP and my
> > reply too closely.
> >
>
> Well, I did. Let me know where you think I'm missing the point.
>
I did not suggest that a picture dictionary would reach as far as
helping explain abstract concepts.
>
> With respect, are you actually involved in ESL/EFL teaching, or just
> indulging in speculation here?
>
> DC
I taught high school English for 35 years, with an occasional foray
into ESL.
After I retired I taught adult ESL in Mexico at a very good
language institute whose owner/operator has a PhD in TESL.
Django Cat
wrote:
Thanks for that clarification. I actually encourage students to bring
bilingual and/or English-only dictionaries into class, (I don't care if
they're electronic or paper) and I often bring piles of dictionaries in
for activities. There's a certain amount of hostility amongst some
teachers towards electronic dictionaries - and it is true that some
students from the Far East seem to spend their time pushing buttons rather
than with their heads up paying atention to rest of the class. This goes
to the extent that one of the colleges where I work bans the use of
electronic dictionaries in class, which to me is overreacting.
>
> Depends on the approach. Many jurisdictions in the
> US employ a bilingual approach with Hispanic students,
> in which case a bilingual picture dictionary would be
> a logical start.
>
Yes it would, particularly with younger learners and, as you say, people
with L1 literacy issues. My practice is usually with multi-lingual groups
and at the moment I'm working with very literate students who are either
in, or going on to, Higher Education.
I don't use picture dictionaries at this level, although I think they're
immensly useful at lower levels. It's also surprising how much visual
images *can* help explain abstract concepts - Mike's mentioned time lines
for explaining tenses and you can go some way towards explaining more
abstract concepts like emotions (it's not difficult to imagine 'love' and
'hate' images for example.) I use a lot of mime in class which is just
another form of visual imagery.
There's always the 'wrong definition' problem, and if I see a student
going for their dictonary I'll often ask them to read the English
definition to the class or explain the L1 definition they find (my
students quickly pick up that I'm happy for them to use their dictionary
and this is just a way of sharing learning). My daftest wrong definition
example happened in my first proper teaching job, in Greece in the early
80s. At the end of a class two teenage girls approached me and asked me
to explain what the verb 'to conceive' meant. I gritted my teeth and
talked about human biology for five minutes. Then they showed me the
passage they'd been reading: "it's impossible to concieve what the problem
might be". Ho hum.
I've been enjoying your and Franke's well-argued and patient defence of
common sense and properly informed debate on the other thread - cheers.
DC
neelu...@gmail.com
> 1. When teaching teenagers and adults, very often have had some
> English lessons in school, so they are not complete beginners. They
> will also often have picked up some English from listening to English
> language popular music. It's quite rare to be teaching genuine
> beginners with no English at all.
>
> 2. When teaching young children, they are very good at associating
> objects and words, so one can quickly build vocabulary. However,
> giving instructions can be an issue, so there's usually a native
> language speaker in the classroom acting as an assistant.
>
> 3. One tries to introduce new elements of language in a gradual and
> structured manner, so one won't be trying to explain abstract concepts
> until the learners already have a fairly solid grasp of the basics of
> the language.
>
> 4. Tenses are usually introduced using a "time line" - basically a
> left to right arrow, with "now" marked. Tenses are then either
> "points" or "periods" on the line.
>
> On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:18:53 +1100, "David Fisher"
> <nos...@nospam.nospam.nospam> wrote:
>
> >I am not an ESL teacher, but I am curious about something ...
> >
> >I get the impression that in an ESL class, English is usually the only
> >language spoken. If this is true, then how does someone who knows very
> >little English understand what the teacher is talking about ? I can imagine
> >holding up a spoon and saying "spoon", but how would the teacher explain
> >more abstract things like tenses without using the language of the student ?
> >
> >I hope this doesn't sound like a silly question -
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >David Fisher
> >