Buying my first home!
Bonnie Forman
I'm buying my first home (!), a townhouse actually, in the
San Francisco Bay Area where I've rented for the last 20 years,
and I have a few questions.
* I need to buy a washer, dryer, and refrigerator. At Circuit City,
they have a refrigerator from a company called Roper (I'd never
heard of it). The salesman told me it was made by Whirlpool, and
the exact same as the comparable size Whirlpool, except that it has
wire shelves rather than glass. It's a little over $100.00 less.
Does anyone know anything about Roper and it's reliability (as
well as salemen at Circuit City and their reliability :-)
Needless to say, money *is* an issue. I'm looking for quality
rather than bells and whistles.
* I'll probably get a Kenmore washer/dryer (also made by Whirlpool?)
Again, nothing fancy - my kids are out of the house now - in college
so I don't need anything heavy duty.
* Finally, (for now, anyway :-) The whole place has
double-paned windows, however one of them (at the top of
a stairway landing) is defective and has condensation. The place
is 7 years old, and I've heard that a lot of double-paned window
come with long warranties. The problem is how to find out what company
made the windows?? The place has been rented since day-1, and the
current owner lives out of the country. Homeowners Assn? Any
other suggestions??
TIA for any comments!
Bonnie
bon...@ccnet.com
Will Bell
In a previous article, bon...@ccnet.com (Bonnie Forman) wrote:
>* I need to buy a washer, dryer, and refrigerator. At Circuit City,
>they have a refrigerator from a company called Roper (I'd never
>heard of it). The salesman told me it was made by Whirlpool, and
>the exact same as the comparable size Whirlpool, except that it has
>wire shelves rather than glass. It's a little over $100.00 less.
Roper is made by whirlpool; it is their "discount line" of appliances.
I would personally doubt the claim that they are "exact same".
Something has to give (other than wire vs. glass shelves) to make the
unit lower in price.
We've had generally marginal experience with cheap appliances (notably
a cheapie Roper dishwasher in our former rental that died in under 2
years.)
If possible, I'd spend as much as you can to get the highest quality
that you can. 5 years down the road you may be glad you did.
--
Will Bell -- wbb at netcom dot com -- DeepinahartaTexas
Remove spaces and pluses from email address to reply.
Aahz
[posted and e-mailed]
{m.c.frugal-living added, followups to ba.consumers and m.c.f}
In article <bonnie-2707...@h96-133.ccnet.com>,
Bonnie Forman <bon...@ccnet.com> wrote:
>
>I'm buying my first home (!), a townhouse actually, in the
>San Francisco Bay Area where I've rented for the last 20 years,
>and I have a few questions.
>
>* I need to buy a washer, dryer, and refrigerator.
I'd strongly recommend getting a used appliance that's about half the
average expected lifespan for that applicance (e.g. get a fridge about
ten years old). You save a lot of money, you get something that's known
to work, and you can expect it to work for several years.
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~aahz
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het
"Every flame is sacred, every flame is great." --Orc
Dan Caugherty
Bonnie Forman wrote:
(snip)
> * I need to buy a washer, dryer, and refrigerator. At Circuit City,
> they have a refrigerator from a company called Roper (I'd never
> heard of it).
If you know someone with Consumer Reports' Buyers Guide, get their
copy & read it. We did b4 purchasing our fridge a few yrs. ago.
Back then, Roper was @ the bottom of their lists, so we avoided them.
(I never heard of the Roper/Whirlpool tie, BTW. Methinks the salesman
may not be up to snuff on his facts.)
YMMV, but do the homework..
You might want to consider spending a little extra cash for a better
fridge, and picking up a used dryer. (Used washers can wreak havoc
when their water pumps crack -- trust me, this is the reason why
we own a Shop-Vac. =-( ) Remember, the refrigerator will more
or less be functioning 24 hrs/day, whereas the washer/dryer combination
might be used 5 hrs. max per week -- if you're going to buy a new
appliance, make sure it's the fridge.
HTH,
+---------------...@Nortel.ca--------------------------+
| Dan Caugherty | All opinions herein are MINE. |
| Member of Sci. Staff, Irritant,| Not yours, theirs, his, hers, or |
| and Collector of Spare Change | its. So there. |
| Nortel Technology, RTP, NC | Change addr to all lower case 1st |
+---------------...@Nortel.ca--------------------------+
Mike
In article <bonnie-2707...@h96-133.ccnet.com>, bon...@ccnet.com
says...
>
>I'm buying my first home (!), a townhouse actually, in the
>San Francisco Bay Area where I've rented for the last 20 years,
>and I have a few questions.
>
>they have a refrigerator from a company called Roper (I'd never
>the exact same as the comparable size Whirlpool, except that it has
>wire shelves rather than glass. It's a little over $100.00 less.
>well as salemen at Circuit City and their reliability :-)
>Needless to say, money *is* an issue. I'm looking for quality
>rather than bells and whistles.
I looked at some refridgerators at Best Buy and was totally unimpressed with
the quality thereof. It seems these places only carry the low end appliances
to keep the store cheap recomendation. Circuit City may be better in this
regard, they seem to sell better quality audio equipment if that is any
indication. In anycase...Roper...I know nothing about them but I have heard
of them. If they are made by Whirlpool than it is probably OK reliability
wise, *BUT* they don't make it cheap simply by putting different shelves in
it. Pay close attension to the displays looking for differences in quality
(ie: exterior finish, seams, energy guide ratings, number of shelves, noise
level, etc.). I think that is where you'll find the difference.
If I were you, take a look at some appliance scratch and dent places. These
places sell cosmetically damaged appliances with full factory warrantee at a
substantial discount. Stores in this category can be hit and miss. Look for
one that is owned by or part of a regular appliance store that has been in
business for a while. That should mean they are not some fly by night
operation plucking appliances from the dump. If in doubt though, call the
BBB or seek some recomendations.
We bought a real nice top end Amana for about the same price as a decent mid
range refridgerator at a place like this. The only thing wrong is it has two
very small dings on the side. Only disadvantages: selection varies (you
can't go in looking for brand X and model Y), usually returns are only
availible if the thing is DOA (all sales are final), and if you find
something you like you have to buy it right then and there, else you risk
loosing it before you come back.
>* I'll probably get a Kenmore washer/dryer (also made by Whirlpool?)
>Again, nothing fancy - my kids are out of the house now - in college
>so I don't need anything heavy duty.
Yes, Kenmore is indeed made by Whirlpool, but I think if you can find an
equivalent Whirlpool (I think Best Buy sells Whirlpool) you will find it is
cheaper. Again, advice above about scratch & dent applies.
>* Finally, (for now, anyway :-) The whole place has
>double-paned windows, however one of them (at the top of
>a stairway landing) is defective and has condensation. The place
>is 7 years old, and I've heard that a lot of double-paned window
>come with long warranties. The problem is how to find out what company
>made the windows?? The place has been rented since day-1, and the
>current owner lives out of the country. Homeowners Assn? Any
>other suggestions??
Eeewww! HOA? My advice, be sure you know exactly what you are getting into
before you buy a house with a mandatory HOA. There might be some good ones,
but for the most part they are Nazi's out to do nothing but tell you how to
run your life at home and what your property looks like down to the color of
your house! You have no recourse if an HOA decides you're in violation of
one of its "rules". Either you fix it or face steap monetary penalties. On
top of that they have the gaul to charge you a mandetory membership fee for
them to have the priveledge of making your life misserable.
But on to your question...just write into the contract that the window will
be replaced by the owner or money will be escrowed to fix it later (get some
estimates if you decided to do the later). It doesn't matter who made the
window so long as only the glass (and not the sash) needs replacement.
--
Because the junk mailers of the world think my address is their play thing,
my e-mail address will not be revealed. Please respond publicly.
************Thank you junk mailers for ruining the internet************
stephanie and eddie
--------------689080ECE6F433A284CDDBFE
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Bonnie Forman wrote:
> I'm buying my first home (!), a townhouse actually, in the
> San Francisco Bay Area where I've rented for the last 20 years,
> and I have a few questions.
>
> * I need to buy a washer, dryer, and refrigerator. At Circuit City,
>
> they have a refrigerator from a company called Roper (I'd never
> heard of it). The salesman told me it was made by Whirlpool, and
> the exact same as the comparable size Whirlpool, except that it has
> wire shelves rather than glass. It's a little over $100.00 less.
> Does anyone know anything about Roper and it's reliability (as
> well as salemen at Circuit City and their reliability :-)
> Needless to say, money *is* an issue. I'm looking for quality
> rather than bells and whistles.
>
> * I'll probably get a Kenmore washer/dryer (also made by Whirlpool?)
> Again, nothing fancy - my kids are out of the house now - in college
> so I don't need anything heavy duty.
>
The refridgerator ratings are in the Feb 1997 Consumer Reports.
Roper is not mentioned in their reports, but they are made by
Whirlpool. We have both a Whirlpool fridge and washer and drier and
have been happy with them. If you let me know what style fridge(top
mounted freezer, icemaker, etc.) you are interested in, I can let you
know what Consumer Reports says in greater detail. Washing Machines
were last rated in July 1996. Of the 18 washers listed, Kenmore had 4
of top 5, so you should rate well if you purchase a Kenmore washer.
Dryers were last rated in May 1995 and Sears placed first and fifth out
of the 19 dryers listed. Sears was also listed as having fewer repairs
necessary than most on the list in both washers and dryers.
I have a tendency to put a lot of faith in Consumer Reports as you can
probably tell. Their ratings are normally right on the money and are
not biased since they don't accept advertising.
Circuit City is normally competitive as far as pricing, but be careful
as far as their salespeople. They work on commission and usually are
not very knowledgable.
> * Finally, (for now, anyway :-) The whole place has
> double-paned windows, however one of them (at the top of
> a stairway landing) is defective and has condensation. The place
> is 7 years old, and I've heard that a lot of double-paned window
> come with long warranties. The problem is how to find out what
> company
> made the windows?? The place has been rented since day-1, and the
> current owner lives out of the country. Homeowners Assn? Any
> other suggestions??
>
> TIA for any comments!
>
> Bonnie
> bon...@ccnet.com
--------------689080ECE6F433A284CDDBFE
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<HTML>
Bonnie Forman wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I'm buying my first home (!), a townhouse actually,
in the
<BR>San Francisco Bay Area where I've rented for the last 20 years,
<BR>and I have a few questions.
<P>* I need to buy a washer, dryer, and refrigerator.
At Circuit City,
<BR>they have a refrigerator from a company called Roper (I'd never
<BR>heard of it). The salesman told me it was made by Whirlpool,
and
<BR>the exact same as the comparable size Whirlpool, except that it has
<BR>wire shelves rather than glass. It's a little over $100.00 less.
<BR>Does anyone know anything about Roper and it's reliability (as
<BR>well as salemen at Circuit City and their reliability :-)
<BR>Needless to say, money *is* an issue. I'm looking for quality
<BR>rather than bells and whistles.
<P>* I'll probably get a Kenmore washer/dryer (also made by Whirlpool?)
<BR>Again, nothing fancy - my kids are out of the house now - in college
<BR>so I don't need anything heavy duty.
<BR> </BLOCKQUOTE>
The refridgerator ratings are in the Feb 1997 Consumer
Reports. Roper is not mentioned in their reports, but they are made
by Whirlpool. We have both a Whirlpool fridge and washer and drier
and have been happy with them. If you let me know what style fridge(top
mounted freezer, icemaker, etc.) you are interested in, I can let
you know what Consumer Reports says in greater detail. Washing Machines
were last rated in July 1996. Of the 18 washers listed, Kenmore had
4 of <TT>top 5, so you should rate well if you purchase a Kenmore washer.
Dryers were last rated in May 1995 and Sears placed first and fifth out
of the 19 dryers listed. Sears was also listed as having fewer repairs
necessary than most on the list in both washers and dryers.</TT>
<P><TT>I have a tendency to put a lot of faith in Consumer Reports as you
can probably tell. Their ratings are normally right on the money
and are not biased since they don't accept advertising.</TT>
<P><TT>Circuit City is normally competitive as far as pricing, but be careful
as far as their salespeople. They work on commission and usually
are not very knowledgable.</TT>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>* Finally, (for now, anyway :-)
The whole place has
<BR>double-paned windows, however one of them (at the top of
<BR>a stairway landing) is defective and has condensation. The place
<BR>is 7 years old, and I've heard that a lot of double-paned window
<BR>come with long warranties. The problem is how to find out what
company
<BR>made the windows?? The place has been rented since day-1, and
the
<BR>current owner lives out of the country. Homeowners Assn?
Any
<BR>other suggestions??
<P> TIA for any comments!
<P> Bonnie
<BR> bon...@ccnet.com</BLOCKQUOTE>
</HTML>
--------------689080ECE6F433A284CDDBFE--
Trip Farmer
My neighbor has a Sears whole-house warranty. For about $500 per year
they will warranty anything in the house that is Sears brand, i.e.
a/c unit, microwave, refrig., lawnmower, rear-projection TV, dishwasher,
etc.
They even come out and do annual inspections/maintenance on these
items. They just recently came out and tuned-up his lawm mower including
new wheels, blade, sparkplug, etc.
This is something to think about. Sears has good appliances.
Trip
Jamie Treworgy
Trip Farmer wrote:
>
> My neighbor has a Sears whole-house warranty. For about $500 per year
> they will warranty anything in the house that is Sears brand, i.e.
> a/c unit, microwave, refrig., lawnmower, rear-projection TV, dishwasher,
> etc.
This doesn't sound like a great deal... for $500 you could completely
replace almost any single major appliance every year! Since most people
only need to replace an appliance every 10 or 15 years, that's a lot of
money going down...
I can't think of any year when my maintenance costs for all of the items
combined that you mention have come anywhere close to $500.
Generally speaking extended warranties of any kind are not usually worth
the investment.
Jamie
Mark A. Yedinak
Bonnie Forman wrote:
>
> I'm buying my first home (!), a townhouse actually, in the
> San Francisco Bay Area where I've rented for the last 20 years,
> and I have a few questions.
>
> * I need to buy a washer, dryer, and refrigerator. At Circuit City,
> they have a refrigerator from a company called Roper (I'd never
> heard of it). The salesman told me it was made by Whirlpool, and
> the exact same as the comparable size Whirlpool, except that it has
> wire shelves rather than glass. It's a little over $100.00 less.
> Does anyone know anything about Roper and it's reliability (as
> well as salemen at Circuit City and their reliability :-)
> Needless to say, money *is* an issue. I'm looking for quality
> rather than bells and whistles.
>
> * I'll probably get a Kenmore washer/dryer (also made by Whirlpool?)
> Again, nothing fancy - my kids are out of the house now - in college
> so I don't need anything heavy duty.
Before buying from Circuit City or Best Buy, find a small appliance
store in the area. I have found that they usually have better prices
(which you can negoiate) and their sales people are more knowledgable.
Here in the Chicago area I have found two smaller appliance stores and
have always gotten better prices from them than Circuit City or Best
Buy. We recently picked up a high end Maytag dryer dryer from the local
place for the same price that Circuit City and Best Buy had for the mid
level Maytag dryer. For the same model there was about a $60 dollar
difference. Plus they had free delivery. Something Best Buy does not
offer.
--
Mark A. Yedinak - Lead Engineer * Don't take life
Tellabs Operations, Inc. * seriously, you will
Phone: 1-630-378-6020 * never make it out
email: myed...@tellabs.com * alive!
Jay Reifert
(**NOTE** If this response comes through several times, I apologize.
I kept receiving a prompt, when I tried to send this article that said
that my news server was not available now, try again later. When I
called my ISP to find out what was going on, I was told that in
spite of the fact that I received that prompt, that the message
was likely queued up to be sent later, because they were in a
maintenance cycle. My apologies. JR.)
In article <5rj1k3$9...@sf18.dseg.ti.com>, Mike <n...@junk.mail> wrote
in response to a question about a blown thermal seal in a double
paned window...
<deletions>
>But on to your question...just write into the contract that the window will
>be replaced by the owner or money will be escrowed to fix it later (get some
>estimates if you decided to do the later). It doesn't matter who made the
>window so long as only the glass (and not the sash) needs replacement.
While these are both workable solutions, the escrowing option is kind of
cumbersome and in the case of a single blown thermal seal is quite
likely not worth doing, considering the other options that you have.
Gathering estimates requires time, plus, you will likely have to
have your attorney draft the escrow agreement, because many title
companies--at least in Wisconsin--are loathe to accept the liability
that comes with drafting an escrow agreement. That adds expense, for
either you or the seller which makes it harder to get your offer accepted.
Instead, you can write it into the contract to be fixed, as the person
who wrote the paragraph above has suggested, or you can ask your private
home inspector for a ballpark estimate on the cost to replace the glass
with the blown thermal seal--around here it would be $100-150--and then
simply factor that into any offer that you make.
If this window is the *only* problem that your inspector finds with this
house and the property is priced somewhat well to begin with, you will go
a lot further toward getting you eventual offer accepted if you don't
clutter it up with things that can cause your offer to receive undue
scrutiny.
Besides, if you do have difficulty getting the seller to play ball at
your price, or if you want one final concession, you can then come back
and use the blown thermal pane as a further point of negotiation.
Remember to keep things in perspective, though. If you're really getting
a good deal to begin with--and there are ways of telling--then don't
throw things into turmoil over an easily fixable, small ticket item
like a blown thermal pane.
Jay Reifert
***Nationwide Alternative-Realty Referral Network***
Offering Consumers Free, Nationwide Access to Buyer Agents, Single Agents
& Service-Oriented Listing Agents. Many of These Practitioners Are Online,
Just A Few Keystrokes Away. For More Detail, Email Your Request To:
jrei...@msn.fullfeed.com
Tom Elberfeld
Tr...@uab.edu (Trip Farmer) wrote:
> My neighbor has a Sears whole-house warranty. For about $500 per year
> they will warranty anything in the house that is Sears brand, i.e.
> a/c unit, microwave, refrig., lawnmower, rear-projection TV, dishwasher,
> etc.
My first thought upon reading this was that this was *extremely*
expensive. My second thought was that it was a great deal (if you don't
mind Sears appliances), because all you'd have to do is buy one of each
appliance, and Sears would keep them going for as long as you live. My
third thought was no, that would be silly. There's got to be some sort of
time limit--they're surely not going to maintain 50 year old TVs, for
example. Especially when, IMO, most of what they sell has the lifespan of
a pinata. Which brings me back to extremely expensive.
-- Tom, who never wants to miss an opportunity to bash Sears for its
"excellent" products, customer "service," or "availability" of parts.
Sales is okay, though.
Trip Farmer
>example. Especially when, IMO, most of what they sell has the lifespan of
>a pinata. Which brings me back to extremely expensive.
>
>-- Tom, who never wants to miss an opportunity to bash Sears for its
> "excellent" products, customer "service," or "availability" of parts.
> Sales is okay, though.
>
Me thinks you are wrong about Kenmore appliances. See my other posts.
Trip
Jamie T.
Trip Farmer wrote:
> This is my neighbor I'm talking about. If one of his rear projection
> bulbs goes out it's $250 a shot, plus labor, etc. Do you have your
> central a/c unit serviced at least once a year? Probably not. That's
> another $100+. Lawn mower tuned up = $75. Seals replaced on refrig.
> and microwave = $100. Any breakdown on any item = fixed free.
Its possible, in theory, that it might be a good idea - if, for example,
you've found that you blow 2 or more rear projection bulbs per year. I
don't own one of those things so I have no idea what the life is.
But generally speaking. Extended warranties or purchased warranties of
almost ANY kind are a bad idea- they wouldn't offer them if they didn't
make money on them. Kind of like a casino. Over the long haul, you
will lose - otherwise, they wouldn't be in business.
Jamie
Trip Farmer
>For about $350 your neighbor can get warranties that cover all appliances no
>matter who makes them. Ask your realtor about American Homeshield and other
>competing policies. Best bet is to write it into your contract that the
>seller pays the first year of the warrantee. After that you can continue it,
>if you wish. Personally, I wouldn't...but the first year is nice so you
>don't get any unexpected surprises a few weeks after you move in.
But they won't perform routine maintenance on the items as Sears does.
Sears doesn't just fix broken items, they do tune-ups, replace worn out
parts, replace gaskets annually, service a/c units 2 times per year, etc.
So you can see they do much more than American Shield's warranty.
Trip
Jan Penovich
Tr...@uab.edu (Trip Farmer) writes:
Well Trip, me thinks Tom is right about Kenmore appliances.
My last house had them (all brand new and all needed repairs
almost immediately). Then fools that we are, we purchased a sears
water heater in our current house. It was repaired a couple
times and replaced all within the first year.
Dealing with the service people was a real treat too.
I've warned my friends to hit me in the head with a 2x4 if I
ever mention that I'm going to buy a sears appliance.
jan
--
********************************************************************
TTFN, *jpen...@encore.com* (my opinions are my own
jan penovich *Encore Computer Corp.* not my employer's)
Trip Farmer
>This doesn't sound like a great deal... for $500 you could completely
>replace almost any single major appliance every year! Since most people
>only need to replace an appliance every 10 or 15 years, that's a lot of
>money going down...
>
>I can't think of any year when my maintenance costs for all of the items
>combined that you mention have come anywhere close to $500.
>
>Generally speaking extended warranties of any kind are not usually worth
>the investment.
>
>Jamie
Jamie,
This is my neighbor I'm talking about. If one of his rear projection
bulbs goes out it's $250 a shot, plus labor, etc. Do you have your
central a/c unit serviced at least once a year? Probably not. That's
another $100+. Lawn mower tuned up = $75. Seals replaced on refrig.
and microwave = $100. Any breakdown on any item = fixed free.
Now I don't have the warranty so I don't know the exact cost which I'm
sure varies, but for a whole house it's not bad. The good parts are that
they come to your house for all work and they not only fix things that
are broken/not working but they actually perform routine maintenance
on those same items so they last longer.
Still not bad for a whole house of appliances. Of course you could go
the cheap route and just have them fixed/replaced when they quit (Hey!
That might also be the expensive route! :-) )
Trip
Jim Sokoloff
Tom Elberfeld wrote:
> Especially when, IMO, most of what [Sears] sell has the lifespan of
> a pinata. Which brings me back to extremely expensive.
Craftsman hand tools are a notable exception. Lifetime, no questions
guarantee. Just bring the busted tool back to Sears and they'll give you
a new one... (And I don't believe I've ever busted one when I wasn't
doing something outrageously stupid with it...)
> -- Tom, who never wants to miss an opportunity to bash Sears for its
> "excellent" products, customer "service," or "availability" of parts.
I haven't been overly impressed with a lot of what Sears does, but hand
tools is a good bargain from them.
---Jim
Cissy . Thorpe
Tom wrote:
>snip>>
> >>example. Especially when, IMO, most of what they sell has the lifespan of
> >>a pinata. Which brings me back to extremely expensive.
> >>
> >>-- Tom, who never wants to miss an opportunity to bash Sears for its
> >> "excellent" products, customer "service," or "availability" of parts.
> >> Sales is okay, though.
> >>
> Tr...@uab.edu (Trip Farmer) writes:>
> >Me thinks you are wrong about Kenmore appliances. See my other posts.
On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Jan Penovich wrote:
> Well Trip, me thinks Tom is right about Kenmore appliances.
> My last house had them (all brand new and all needed repairs
> almost immediately). Then fools that we are, we purchased a sears
> water heater in our current house. It was repaired a couple
> times and replaced all within the first year.
>
> Dealing with the service people was a real treat too.
>
> I've warned my friends to hit me in the head with a 2x4 if I
> ever mention that I'm going to buy a sears appliance.
>
> jan
I think this is one of those "one man's meat" thingys....I have all
Kenmore, except for the Amana fridge that I bought from Wards cause the
credit people at Sears ticked me off...and I have regretted it ever
since. All the Kenmores in our house run like champs and have done for
what seems like eons (washer and dryer 15 years - microwave 18 years -
water heater nearly 27 years - stove 10 years - I wanted a gas, but there
was nothing wrong with the electric one we replaced)
If I had to do it again - I'd go with Kenmore. In fact, I am buying my
daughter a Kenmore sewing machine for Christmas (last years she got a
Kenmore microwave).
Go figure
Cissy
Jamie T.
Jim Sokoloff wrote:
>
> Tom Elberfeld wrote:
> > Especially when, IMO, most of what [Sears] sell has the lifespan of
> > a pinata. Which brings me back to extremely expensive.
>
> guarantee. Just bring the busted tool back to Sears and they'll give you
> a new one... (And I don't believe I've ever busted one when I wasn't
> doing something outrageously stupid with it...)
Not entirely true... I broke a ratchet and they wouldn't replace it;
they gave me a "ratchet repair kit". There was actually a sign posted
to the effect that for some reason ratchets are no longer covered under
their lifetime guarantee. I guess they break too often.
Jamie
Trip Farmer
>But generally speaking. Extended warranties or purchased warranties of
>almost ANY kind are a bad idea- they wouldn't offer them if they didn't
>make money on them. Kind of like a casino. Over the long haul, you
>will lose - otherwise, they wouldn't be in business.
>
>Jamie
Jamie,
Anybody knows that but you still take out medical insurance and life
insurance, don't you? How about car insurance? Household insurance?
Do you just take a chance on everything? How about contraceptives?
They're insurance, too, ya know!
Trip
Trip Farmer
>Better go back and re-think that second thought of yours again!
>Regardless of how many sears appliances you may have shelling out $500
>a year in anticipation that one (all) of them will fail during a year,
>can become pretty expensive in a few short years - investing UP to
>$500 a year to provide for repairs and replacement would be a much
>smarter move for anyone. (And you probably would have enough invested
>to cover anything that might happen to any non-Sears things you owned
>too!
OK, so you take that $20-30 per month that you spend on term life insurance
and the $20-30 for your spouse (maybe) and invest it in mutual finds for
20 years and you'll get a better return on your money, too. But what if
something happens, well that's what the insurance/warranty is for. Some
people are risk takers and some aren't.
Trip
Mark A. Yedinak
You are comparing apples and oranges here. Paying $300 to $500 dollars
for an extended warrenty on a $1500 dollar item is ridiculous and
foolish. It is even worse for items which cost less. In addition, the
warrenty generally expires long before the item does. One to two years
payments for this whole house extended warrenty would replace nearly
every item which was covered. One to two years savings from the life or
medical insurance premiums would never even come close to covering a
loss of income or major illness.
However, life insurance, medical insurance and home owners insurance are
all used to protect from substanial loss. One major illness can easily
exceed $100K. Life insurance is intended to replace loss income for an
extended period of time. Term insurance should only be carried as long
as you do not have the necessary savings to sustain yourself or your
family after a death. Once you have saved enough, drop the insurance. It
is also unwise to buy life insurance if no one depends on your income.
Home owners insurance is also protecting you from a major loss. One
additional benefit these days is the liability coverage, since everyone
seems so eager to sue everyone.
Trip Farmer
You are apparently a very bitter individual that just likes to disagree
and argue your point. See my other posts about life insurance, etc.
Everyone has their own opinions and theories about extended warranties
and insurance. Some people will pay extra just for "piece of mind".
I think I understand that Sears makes a profit on these warranties which
is OK by me, I don't have it on my house, my neighbor does. Even if I
did, it would still be OK.
So mister, why don't you explain to all of us how to invest our money
since you don't spend your's on extended warranties. Or is it possible
that you don't spend it on EW's since you can't afford to do so? (I think
"cheap" is the word I'm looking for here)
Trip
Trip Farmer
> I've warned my friends to hit me in the head with a 2x4 if I
> ever mention that I'm going to buy a sears appliance.
>
> jan
Jan,
Bamm! Hope that didn't hurt too much. You can get good and bad from
any manufacturer and sounds like you've had your share of bad. I
experience has been my parents w/d that lasted 20 years and our
refrig. when I was growing up lasted over 15 years. All without
maintenance. My w/d are 14 years old and I just replaced the timer on the
washer (myself @ $59.00). My refrig. is 8 years old with no repairs.
Now, go buy that SubZero refrig. and Maytag w/d and see how long before
you need to have them serviced :-)
Trip
Trip Farmer
>You have to be VERY careful about the hand tools you buy at Sears -
>
>not ALL the tools they sell are "Craftsman" and when you buy
>Craftsman, you paying for the lifetime warranty because it is
>factored into the higher price they charge for them.
Arguing again.........Cheap.
Trip
Albert Dicsi
I tend to agree with the statement that extended warranties in
general are a waste of money. My approach is that you should
protect yourself from big liabilities, and take the risk over
the small ones. Of course, everybody has a different definition
of big and small.
What I find offensive though, is stores offering the extended
warranty for a period of 2 years which turns out to be only an
additional one year warranty since most appliances already come
with a 1 year warranty. Suprised nobody has slapped their wrist
over this one.
Albert.
Trip Farmer
>You have crossed the line in the discussion and now are in the realm
>of 'fruit salad" who is talking about life insurance? The subject is
>WARRANTIES - not the use of LIFE INSURANCE as an investment or as a
>TAX SHELTER (a significant reason some people have for moving their
>assets to a term insurance policy!) there are totally different
>incentives and magnitudes of return involved.
>
>Please make an effort to remain on the subject and not try to side
>track it with a diversion when you are unable to justify your
>position!
If you (and just who are you) don't understand the comparison between
life insurance and warranties it's not my fault. Also, it's also not my
fault if you don't understand investments/disinvestments and life
insurance.
And please put a little whipped cream on the fruit salad!
Trip
Jamie T.
Trip Farmer wrote:
> Anybody knows that but you still take out medical insurance and life
> insurance, don't you? How about car insurance? Household insurance?
>
> Do you just take a chance on everything? How about contraceptives?
> They're insurance, too, ya know!
Life insurance is an investment. Medical, car, and homeowners insurance
are very different - the rates are determined (in theory) by the
estimated cost to the large pool you are a part of. These insurances
protect you against extremely expensive unpredictable events.
Extended warranties are neither. They are not based on the cost to the
manufacturer; they are sold as a product. And the "risk" of NOT getting
an extended warranty is minimal.
To demonstrate:
My homeowner's insurance costs $600 per year. It covers my entire house
and all its contents from loss. If my house burned down, without this
insurance, I would be ruined.
This guy's "appliance" insurance costs $500 per year. It will fix his
washer, dryer, TV set, and lawnmower (assuming all are purchased from
Sears) for him if it breaks. If his washer breaks, without this
insurance, he has to spend $50 to fix it or (worst case) $400 to replace
it.
Could you conceive of spending $5,000 in ten years on maintenance of
these things? You could replace them all completely every ten years for
that price.
Jamie
Mike
In article <33DD89A9...@ibm.net>, the...@ibm.net says...
>
>I have a tendency to put a lot of faith in Consumer Reports as you can
>probably tell. Their ratings are normally right on the money and are
>not biased since they don't accept advertising.
They want you to think they arn't biased, but be warned that they are. I
think it was the Wall Street Journal that reported recently that their
testing methods are not consistant. In the specific case of cars and baby
car seats, certain models were tested repeatedly to make things break which
counted negatively in the report, while others are hardly tested at all.
Other companies have claimed their products were tested under situations or
conditions that would never occur in real life and hence were not designed to
perform in. Still other companies given a poor rating on a product note
millions of satisfied customers with very few complaints. A number of
companies have and are suing Consumer Reports for what they claim are
misleading product tests.
I also think the article stated that Consumer Reports does not, as you state,
accept advertising. However, Consumer Reports parent organization, Consumers
Union, does accept corporate donations and gifts and they have their fingers
in a number of political circles. I also recall that group is very pro
lawyer either because most of the members are lawyers or they receive loads
of donations from them. Anyway you look at it though, Consumers Union does
have a vested interest in seeing certain brands pass and others to fall flat
on their faces.
I can't vouch for the validity of these claims, but I do know this. I
subscribed for a year about 5 years ago and I saw them continualy to recomend
what I consider cheap garbage that I wouldn't consider even with a "Best Buy"
rating. What I mean is the product quality may be good, but I frequently
found myself questioning long term reliability, especially when the "Best
Buy" was from a company with a cheap or poor reputation or whose products
I've used before that failed within an unreasonable amount of time.
I have also repeatedly seen what I would consider very suspicious
recomendations. In this case I certainly would be very suspicious of the
Sears ratings if the Whirlpools did not rate at or near the same levels. The
only differance between the two product lines is the name on the front.
Cosmetically and functionally they are otherwise identical. If Sears came
out on top and Whirlpool is on the bottom, there is a serious disconnect in
the test results.
Contrary to what you state, I have found Consumer Reports ratings to be
rarely "on the money". I saw through there little smoke and mirror game
rather quickly and dropped the subscription.
Christine Sanderson
I bought a roper washer and dryer set 2 years ago. They run fine and
have no problems. Roper is made by Whirlpool, but Im not sure if thier
is a quality difference. Mine survived a move with no problems at all.
Christine
Trip Farmer
>Life insurance is an investment. Medical, car, and homeowners insurance
>are very different - the rates are determined (in theory) by the
>estimated cost to the large pool you are a part of. These insurances
>protect you against extremely expensive unpredictable events.
>
>Extended warranties are neither. They are not based on the cost to the
>manufacturer; they are sold as a product. And the "risk" of NOT getting
>an extended warranty is minimal.
>
>To demonstrate:
>
>My homeowner's insurance costs $600 per year. It covers my entire house
>and all its contents from loss. If my house burned down, without this
>insurance, I would be ruined.
>
>This guy's "appliance" insurance costs $500 per year. It will fix his
>washer, dryer, TV set, and lawnmower (assuming all are purchased from
>Sears) for him if it breaks. If his washer breaks, without this
>insurance, he has to spend $50 to fix it or (worst case) $400 to replace
>it.
>
>Could you conceive of spending $5,000 in ten years on maintenance of
>these things? You could replace them all completely every ten years for
>that price.
>
>Jamie
Jamie,
Life insurance, an investment? Surely you jest. Life insurance is one of
the worse investments a person can make in their lifetime. It's the
pits. Worse than that, it's the bottom of the pit. Term insurance
with the difference put in to a mutual fund will outperform whole life
many times over. Hopefully, when you get to a ripe old age you will have
no dependents (except spouse) and hopefully you will have enough savings
(if you invested in mutual funds, 401k, 403b, etc.) for them to live
comfortably. Of course there are exceptions, and for a very, very few
whole life is the choice, but probably less than 1/2 of 1% should consider
it.
Go and study up on probability analysis. Learn all you can. Then call me
collect at, well e-mail me and I'll give you my phone number. We'll
discuss this in more detail.
I don't have time to debate this on the net. As I told another if you
would qualify your comments with "for me....." then I could understand
that "for you" extended warranties are not a good purchase. But you
state that for all the people on this earth it is bad. That's not so.
Trip
Trip Farmer
In article <33DFF6...@inx.net>, Sonia Christakis <wts...@inx.net> says:
>
>go to hell to live ok
Got insurance on that, too :-)
Trip
Danny Gough
Jamie T. wrote:
>
> Trip Farmer wrote:
> > Anybody knows that but you still take out medical insurance and life
> > insurance, don't you? How about car insurance? Household insurance?
> >
> > Do you just take a chance on everything? How about contraceptives?
> > They're insurance, too, ya know!
>
> are very different - the rates are determined (in theory) by the
> estimated cost to the large pool you are a part of. These insurances
> protect you against extremely expensive unpredictable events.
>
> Extended warranties are neither. They are not based on the cost to the
> manufacturer; they are sold as a product. And the "risk" of NOT getting
> an extended warranty is minimal.
>
> To demonstrate:
>
> My homeowner's insurance costs $600 per year. It covers my entire house
> and all its contents from loss. If my house burned down, without this
> insurance, I would be ruined.
>
> This guy's "appliance" insurance costs $500 per year. It will fix his
> washer, dryer, TV set, and lawnmower (assuming all are purchased from
> Sears) for him if it breaks. If his washer breaks, without this
> insurance, he has to spend $50 to fix it or (worst case) $400 to replace
> it.
>
> Could you conceive of spending $5,000 in ten years on maintenance of
> these things? You could replace them all completely every ten years for
> that price.
>
> Jamie
Life insurance is as much an investment as I am a log truck.
Sonia Christakis
Jim Sokoloff
Trip Farmer wrote:
> Life insurance, an investment? Surely you jest. Life insurance is one of
> the worse investments a person can make in their lifetime. It's the
> pits. Worse than that, it's the bottom of the pit.
(Trip has evidentally not looked into my investment portfolio... :-) )
> Term insurance
> with the difference put in to a mutual fund will outperform whole life
> many times over.
This advice is generally right on the money...
---Jim
Jim Sokoloff
Jamie T. wrote:
> Not entirely true... I broke a ratchet and they wouldn't replace it;
> they gave me a "ratchet repair kit". There was actually a sign posted
> to the effect that for some reason ratchets are no longer covered under
> their lifetime guarantee. I guess they break too often.
That's interesting; I always wondered "Why the hell do they have ratchet
repair kits for Craftsman Rachets?" I imagine that if you raised enough
of a fuss, they'd have to give you a replacement ratchet, since it seems
fairly clear that if you really decided to be a PITA, you'd prevail in
court, based on the premise that Sears can't unilaterally alter the
warranty they offered to you when you purchased the original ratchet.
I haven't broken a ratchet in a few years; guess I'll find out next time
I break one.
---Jim
Gary Slusser
Danny Gough <hous...@netunlimited.net> wrote in article
<33DFE9...@netunlimited.net>...
> Jamie T. wrote:
> >
> > Trip Farmer wrote:
> > >
> >
> > Life insurance is an investment.
> >
> > Jamie
>
>
> Life insurance is as much an investment as I am a log truck.
I don't know currently but up to about 10 years ago it was illegal for an
agent to call life insurance an "investment" here in PA.
Gary
Hell Toupee
Tom Elberfeld wrote:
>
<snip>
> My second thought was that it was a great deal (if you don't
> mind Sears appliances), because all you'd have to do is buy one of each
> appliance, and Sears would keep them going for as long as you live. My
> third thought was no, that would be silly. There's got to be some sort > of time limit--they're surely not going to maintain 50 year old TVs, > > for example.
My older sister has worked for Sears for, oh, almost thirty years now.
So you can guess what brand appliances our families' homes are filled
with.
:-) Anyhow, she told me that as of last year Sears has changed their
service warranties by putting a lifetime limit on them - they'll now
only sell a service warranty during the first 10 years of an appliance's
life. Remember that under their warranty, if they can't get a
replacement part, they will replace the appliance (I think they pro-rate
it, but I'm not certain). Problem was that the really old appliances
were costing them too much money in service/parts/replacements, so they
implemented that warranty time limit.
>Especially when, IMO, most of what they sell has the lifespan of
> a pinata. Which brings me back to extremely expensive.
>
I suppose this comes down to individual experience. We got twenty-five
years out of our Sears central air conditioner. Had their trash
compactor till the second drawer rusted through and I just decided to go
buy a new one. I'm still on my first Sears freezer, bought back in the
late 1970s.
My Kenmore dishwasher is 12 years old and I'm _prayin'_ it breaks down,
so I can justify buying a new one. I only got 10 years out of the Sears
gas range, but then again we use the range heavily - I figure 10 years
with us was at least 20 years of 'typical' use. I hated the snow blower
I bought from them (I was repairing it all the time), and the
reconditioned lawnmower I bought got returned almost immediately. But
the household appliances have certainly held up.
Sears has been selling other brands of appliances for a few years now,
and all of them can be covered under a Sears service contract. So if
folks want more choices and want to buy a service contract for all the
brands, it works out in that way. Me, I only buy a contract for the one
appliance we make extreme demands on - the gas range.
B.W.
Jamie T. wrote:
>
> Jim Sokoloff wrote:
> >
> > Tom Elberfeld wrote:
> > > a pinata. Which brings me back to extremely expensive.
> >
> > guarantee. Just bring the busted tool back to Sears and they'll give you
> > a new one... (And I don't believe I've ever busted one when I wasn't
> > doing something outrageously stupid with it...)
>
> they gave me a "ratchet repair kit". There was actually a sign posted
> to the effect that for some reason ratchets are no longer covered under
> their lifetime guarantee. I guess they break too often.
>
Not here in Michigan. I used my ratchet as a hammer, like an idiot, and
they replaced it for free no questions asked.
Bill
John Galbreath Jr.
Jim Sokoloff wrote:
>
> Jamie T. wrote:
>
> > Not entirely true... I broke a ratchet and they wouldn't replace it;
> > they gave me a "ratchet repair kit". There was actually a sign posted
> > to the effect that for some reason ratchets are no longer covered under
> > their lifetime guarantee. I guess they break too often.
>
> repair kits for Craftsman Rachets?" I imagine that if you raised enough
> of a fuss, they'd have to give you a replacement ratchet, since it seems
> fairly clear that if you really decided to be a PITA, you'd prevail in
> court, based on the premise that Sears can't unilaterally alter the
> warranty they offered to you when you purchased the original ratchet.
>
> I haven't broken a ratchet in a few years; guess I'll find out next time
> I break one.
>
> ---Jim
I just recently took one back and had no problems. I was purchasing
about $100 worth of tools on the same trip. Suggestion, let the sales
person know you will go shop the store while HE rebuilds your ratchet,
or gladly take a replacement.
--
John Galbreath Jr. http://www.ABSCOFireplace.com
ABSCO Fireplace & Patio
Birmingham, Alabama mailto:Jo...@ABSCOFireplace.com
Jim
Since Sears isn't honoring the warranty they USED to
give on tools, be aware that Home Depot will swap their
Husky tools for Craftsman.
I may start taking them up on it -- Craftsman quality
isn't what it used to be. Of course, the price of the tool
relative to inflation isn't as high as it used to
be either.
Of course, now I can afford Snap-On tools....
Cissy . Thorpe
>
> >
> >My first thought upon reading this was that this was *extremely*
> >expensive. My second thought was that it was a great deal (if you don't
> >mind Sears appliances), because all you'd have to do is buy one of each
> >appliance, and Sears would keep them going for as long as you live. My
> >third thought was no, that would be silly. There's got to be some sort of
> >time limit--they're surely not going to maintain 50 year old TVs, for
> >example. Especially when, IMO, most of what they sell has the lifespan of
> >a pinata. Which brings me back to extremely expensive.
>
>
> Better go back and re-think that second thought of yours again!
> Regardless of how many sears appliances you may have shelling out $500
> a year in anticipation that one (all) of them will fail during a year,
> can become pretty expensive in a few short years - investing UP to
> $500 a year to provide for repairs and replacement would be a much
> smarter move for anyone. (And you probably would have enough invested
> to cover anything that might happen to any non-Sears things you owned
> too!
>
>
Yes and no. For the vast majority of people saving the money (provided
they have the personal disipline to do so) would work fine. The only time
I know of that Sears' repair service contracts really paid off for the
consumers was following Andrew (was that the one that hit south
Florida??) My daughter worked for Sears at the time and those people not
only got their money's worth, but they got top priority, too. Sears even
put people who did not have the coverage but were in the area on their
"fix it first" list.
And Sears covers "non-Sears" stuff in the service contracts.
It is my understanding that the $500/year covers any and all appliances
in your house-stove, dishwasher, fridge, a/c (window or central),
security system, water heater...all. Sears/Kenmore/Craftsman or not.
I wonder how they are going to handle TVs when they all change??
My 2p
Cissy
Kurt Krueger
> Jamie T. wrote:
>
> > ... I broke a ratchet and they wouldn't replace it;
> > they gave me a "ratchet repair kit".
A puzzling part is that Sears has ratchet repair kits for sale.
Complete with real price tags.
???? If the ratchet has a liftime guarantee aren't the repair
kits free with exchange ?
______________________________________________________________
|
kurt.d....@TEK.COM | Everything runs on smoke. When
Electrical Simulation Group | the smoke leaks out, it stops
D.S. 39-717 (503) 627-4363 | working.
____________________________|_________________________________
Jamie T.
Trip Farmer wrote:
>
> Life insurance, an investment? Surely you jest. Life insurance is one of
Fine, you convinced me! But I don't care about life insurance. That's
not what we have been talking about. All I was trying to say is it is
not in the same category as extended warranties.
> I don't have time to debate this on the net. As I told another if you
Then why do you post so much?
> As I told another if you
>would qualify your comments with "for me....." then I could understand
>that "for you" extended warranties are not a good purchase. But you
>state that for all the people on this earth it is bad. That's not so.
I wouldn't be posting if I thought I was the only person on earth who
can benefit from this information.
As I tried to demonstrate in a number of examples, buying extended
warranties rarely pays, for *anyone*. Yes, a few people will benefit.
But the *risk* of the investment is very high compared to the potential
return. Buying an extended warranty is betting that, on average, you
will spend more than the cost of the warranty in repairs over the period
covered by that same warranty. Compared to other ways to invest the
same money (for example, putting it under your bed) the majority will
benefit from NOT buying extended warranties.
Jamie
Mike
I'm only stating my observations which quite often should be obvious to even
somebody who knows little about what they are buying. I cited the Wall
Street Journal more than once. You are free to believe or disbelieve
anything you like, but that does not change what was published. I said
things like "I think" becuase it was published at least six months and maybe
a year ago and don't remember exact details, just the overall jist that CU is
a crooked organization and the basic things that WSJ uncovered in their
investigation. If you want more information, might I suggest you try a
library? Of course it can also be said the folks at WSJ are just as crooked,
so I offer up my experiences.
Don't get me wrong, most of CR may be good recomendatations, or at least
reasonable. But when I see things like AT&T cordless phones come out near
the top (despite that I've had two die and the Uniden I have now has
significantly less interferance, background noise, and much better sound
quality and range), or when a Panasonic anything comes out on top (despite
that everything I've ever owned from them in recent times died just outside
the warranty period). YMMV on these things of course, but you can sure bet I
won't be buying AT&T or Panasonic anytime soon, regardless of what CR may say
about them. Or what about when they review...say...laundry soap but skip
certain commonly available brands yet select store brands not availible
outside a few states where the chain reigns? A real clincher though would be
if Whirlpool washers are ranked on the bottom and Sears on the top, which
contrary to your statement are indeed identical (since you seem so bent on
proof, cite a source that says what is different about them).
These are only examples mind you, but I saw things like this repeatedly when
I subscribed. After you see enough questionable results, you begin to
seriously wonder about the validity of other reviews. It didn't take me long
to figure out something was wrong with CR, and the WSJ article I read seems
to back that up. Maybe it's gotten better in the last five years, but this
is the kind of garbage I saw at the time. It is hardly an unfounded claim.
There was no reason for you to be so cinical about it, unless you have some
tie with CU you're not telling us?
In article <5ro64i$15iu$1...@news.rchland.ibm.com>,
seu...@nordruth.rchland.ibm.com says...
>
>In article <5ro328$h...@sf18.dseg.ti.com>, n...@junk.mail (Mike) writes:
>|> They want you to think they arn't biased, but be warned that they are. I
>|> think it was the Wall Street Journal that reported recently that their
>|> testing methods are not consistant. . . .
>
>Please provide a citation. I have repeatedly heard from various companies
>who've had their products slammed by CR that CR is "funded by X" where
>"X" is their competitor who fared better in the ratings. Yes none can
>ever provide any source other than "rumors".
>
>|> I also think the article stated that Consumer Reports does not, as you
state,
>
>|> accept advertising. However, Consumer Reports parent organization,
Consumers
>
>|> Union, does accept corporate donations and gifts and they have their
fingers
>|> in a number of political circles. . . .
>
>Again, please provide citations.
>
>|> I can't vouch for the validity of these claims, but I do know this. I
>|> subscribed for a year about 5 years ago and I saw them continualy to
recomend
>
>|> what I consider cheap garbage that I wouldn't consider even with a "Best
Buy"
>
>|> rating. What I mean is the product quality may be good, but I frequently
>|> found myself questioning long term reliability, especially when the "Best
>|> Buy" was from a company with a cheap or poor reputation or whose products
>|> I've used before that failed within an unreasonable amount of time.
>
>Huh? Again, provide us with the names of a few of these best buys that
>are shoddy or from companies with bad reps.
>
>|> I have also repeatedly seen what I would consider very suspicious
>|> recomendations. In this case I certainly would be very suspicious of the
>|> Sears ratings if the Whirlpools did not rate at or near the same levels.
The
>
>|> only differance between the two product lines is the name on the front.
>|> Cosmetically and functionally they are otherwise identical. If Sears
came
>|> out on top and Whirlpool is on the bottom, there is a serious disconnect
in
>|> the test results.
>
>Bzzzt! Sorry! Some Sears products are "reflagged" (i.e., identical to
>someone else's products). Others are manufactured for Sears by another
>company BUT are not the same as any of the company's products.
Bzzzt! yourself! In the case of washers and driers, I can tell you Whirlpool
and Kenmore are identical right down to the location of the buttons.
>|> Contrary to what you state, I have found Consumer Reports ratings to be
>|> rarely "on the money". I saw through there little smoke and mirror game
>|> rather quickly and dropped the subscription.
>
>You make lots of "I heard somewhere" and "I think" claims without
>providing ANY citations or real product names.
>
>Or is it because you are posting unfounded claims?
John Galbreath Jr.
Kinda like the Craftsman replacement rubber/plastic tips for their
hammers. I picked a "tip" kit to repair mine. The salesman asked if I
had the hammer with me. I said it was in my car. He told me to go get
it and he would warranty it out. I have NEVER had any problem returning
anything to them. I do ALWAYS purchase $100-$200 in NEW tools when
making the return. I return things 3-4 times per year.
Michael Condict
Trip Farmer wrote:
>
> >Better go back and re-think that second thought of yours again!
> >Regardless of how many sears appliances you may have shelling out $500
> >a year in anticipation that one (all) of them will fail during a year,
> >can become pretty expensive in a few short years - investing UP to
> >$500 a year to provide for repairs and replacement would be a much
> >smarter move for anyone. (And you probably would have enough invested
> >to cover anything that might happen to any non-Sears things you owned
> >too!
>
> and the $20-30 for your spouse (maybe) and invest it in mutual finds for
> 20 years and you'll get a better return on your money, too. But what if
> something happens, well that's what the insurance/warranty is for. Some
> people are risk takers and some aren't.
There are two simple principles to decide whether you should insure
yourself against something:
Can you afford to pay for the insured-against event without
destroying your finances?
Given the premium, will the insurance company make a profit on
you personally? (Will they win the bet, or will you?) It is
irrelevant if whether or not they are making an overall profit
from their total customer base -- you may know that your odds
are different.
If you can afford to pay for the undesirable event, then you are foolish
to let an insurance company make a profit on you. The only reason to
pay the insurance company (Sears, in this case), would be if they
miscalculated your personal risk, and you will end up costing them more
money than the premium they charge you. An example would be if all your
appliances are 10 years old or older (assuming they cover old
appliances).
For similar reasons, it is, for most people, advisable to buy collision
insurance on their new automobile, but foolish to pay for $0 deductible
--
go for the highest deductable you can afford to pay in the event of an
accident, assuming the insurance company gives you a reasonable yearly
discount for doing so. I use a $500 deductable, and should probably
raise it to $1000. Yes the insurance company will still make a profit
on you, but most of us can't afford to replace our entire car if we
destroy it.
Finally, it is imperative for any but the rich to have auto and home
liability insurance, because we can't afford to pay for even one bad
event in this category, without declaring bankruptcy.
So it's simple really. Buy the Sears warranty iff you currently spend
more than $500 per year fixing, maintaining and replacing Sears
appliances and expect to continue doing so. Personally I would find
that hard to believe.
--
Michael Condict m.co...@opengroup.org
The Open Group Research Inst. (617) 621-7349
11 Cambridge Center
Cambridge, MA 02142
Jamie T.
For everyone's reading pleasure, Deja News has a copy:
(If this doesn't work for some reason search on "wall street journal
consumer reports" in the old archive).
Mike wrote:
> a year ago and don't remember exact details, just the overall jist that CU is
> a crooked organization and the basic things that WSJ uncovered in their
> investigation. If you want more information, might I suggest you try a
> library? Of course it can also be said the folks at WSJ are just as crooked,
> so I offer up my experiences.
My reading of the article wasn't really this. The article was an
opinion piece. It doesn't directly accuse CU of being dishonest in
their testing procedures - or offer any evidence to this effect - but
rather of having a political agenda and ties to liberal organizations.
Jamie
RatDoggy
>> Jamie T. wrote:
>>
>> > ... I broke a ratchet and they wouldn't replace it;
>> > they gave me a "ratchet repair kit".
>
>A puzzling part is that Sears has ratchet repair kits for sale.
>Complete with real price tags.
>
>???? If the ratchet has a liftime guarantee aren't the repair
>kits free with exchange ?
Free if you have your ratchet with you for replacement - costs if you're
not that smart.
P
Betsy Schwartz
The big appeal of a blanket warranty, for me, would be a) the predictable
cash flow and b) the value of the time we spend otherwise dealing with
repair hassles. If I could get a guarantee like that and it would include
*finding* a repair person, *guaranteeing* his or her work, and getting him
or her to show UP, I'd jump at it. I'd pay even more if they had pick-up
and delivery.
I understand that they're taking everone's $500 and invesitng it in the
stock market or something and that if I invested $500 a year I might have
enough to pay for new appliances. I also know that it would just take one
or two $1500 applicances to die to TOTALLY ruin our budget (actually, we
don't have any $1500 appliances but we've got an ancient furnace...)
--
bet...@shore.net http://www.shore.net/~betsys
bet...@cs.umb.edu http://www.cs.umb.edu/~betsys
If this looks funny I'm typing with the baby on my lap!
Jamie T.
Betsy Schwartz wrote:
> I understand that they're taking everone's $500 and invesitng it in the
> stock market or something and that if I invested $500 a year I might have
> enough to pay for new appliances. I also know that it would just take one
> or two $1500 applicances to die to TOTALLY ruin our budget (actually, we
> don't have any $1500 appliances but we've got an ancient furnace...)
I've never heard of a $1500 appliance! I suppose you might get up there
with a Sub Zero fridge, but washer, drier, dishwasher are all $300-$500,
a nice fridge might be around $800 or $900.
I doubt the Sears warranty covers the furnace.
Consider that the average life of a fridge is 15 years, a dishwasher 9
years, a washer 10 years, and a dryer 14 years. If you can't afford the
possibility of one or two $500 appliances dying in a year, how can you
afford to spend $500 EVERY year? And these "averages" are weighted down
by a lot of people tossing appliances when they remodel. The dryer in
my house is a gas model from about 1960; all the other appliances are at
least 10 years old (kitchen was remodeled in the early 80s).
Jamie
Cissy . Thorpe
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Jamie T. wrote:
<<stuff snipped>>
> This guy's "appliance" insurance costs $500 per year. It will fix his
> washer, dryer, TV set, and lawnmower (assuming all are purchased from
> Sears) for him if it breaks. If his washer breaks, without this
> insurance, he has to spend $50 to fix it or (worst case) $400 to replace
> it.
>
AFAIK - $500 will cover every appliance in the home for the year -
central A/C, stove, fridge, washer, dryer, dishwasher, etc, etc, etc
whether or not it is made by Sears/Kenmore/Craftsman or not and whether
or not it is purchased from Sears. It is a service agreement, not a store
warranty.
And BTW - not all life insurance is an investment - Term insurance
certainly isn't.
Cissy
bws...@cadsmith.com
In article <33E0D8...@osf.org>, Michael Condict <con...@osf.org> wrote:
>Trip Farmer wrote:
>>
>> >Better go back and re-think that second thought of yours again!
>> >Regardless of how many sears appliances you may have shelling out $500
>> >a year in anticipation that one (all) of them will fail during a year,
>> >can become pretty expensive in a few short years - investing UP to
>> >$500 a year to provide for repairs and replacement would be a much
>> >smarter move for anyone. And you probably would have enough invested
>> >to cover anything that might happen to any non-Sears things you owned
>> >too!
I bought my new home 12 years ago and have spent only $100 on appliance
repairs so far. At $500 per year for a service contract that's
(500*12)-100=$5900, NOT even figuring compound interest on balance
accumulating over 12 years.
I could replace a lot of appliances with $5900, even if they all die at once.
Put it in the bank.
BW Smith
================================================
CADSmith Studio ~NEW~~Garage and Accessory Construction Plans~
Design/Drafting~New England Home Plans Sampler~Links for Building
http://www.cadsmith.com/ ==== email: bws...@cadsmith.com
danh...@millcomm.com
In <33E0EB...@mdhost.cse.tek.com>, Kurt Krueger <ku...@mdhost.cse.tek.com> writes:
>> Jamie T. wrote:
>>
>> > ... I broke a ratchet and they wouldn't replace it;
>> > they gave me a "ratchet repair kit".
>
>A puzzling part is that Sears has ratchet repair kits for sale.
>Complete with real price tags.
>
>???? If the ratchet has a liftime guarantee aren't the repair
>kits free with exchange ?
What gripes me about Sears rachets is that they used to carry an excellent
model that didn't need a repair kit. But they got the design from an
employee and didn't want to pay him any royalties. When the employee sued
and won, rather than license the design from him they went back to the old
flaky lever design. And they also made it clear that any other vendor who
attempted to license the design would rot in lawsuit hell. So no one gets
to use this excellent design.
Sears sells some good stuff on occasion, but they sure can be vindictive
bastards when they don't get their way.
Dan Hicks
Hey!! My advice is free -- take it for what it's worth!
http://www.millcomm.com/~danhicks
John Bray
<snip>
To quote someone from the 'woodworking' newsgroup:
The only thing I've gotten from Sears that didn't
suck was my shop vac.
>
lisa
Jamie T. wrote:
>
> Jim Sokoloff wrote:
> >
> > Tom Elberfeld wrote:
> > > a pinata. Which brings me back to extremely expensive.
> >
> > guarantee. Just bring the busted tool back to Sears and they'll give you
> > a new one... (And I don't believe I've ever busted one when I wasn't
> > doing something outrageously stupid with it...)
>
> they gave me a "ratchet repair kit". There was actually a sign posted
> to the effect that for some reason ratchets are no longer covered under
> their lifetime guarantee. I guess they break too often.
>
About 25 years ago, the Craftsman warranty was that ALL Craftsman tools,
except power tools and precision tools, had a lifetime warranty. A few
years ago, I happened to notice that there are some CRAFTSMAN labeled
tools which now only have a 1 year warranty. That was a few years ago,
but if memory serves me correctly, the items I noticed were their
staplers, and a hand "impact driver" - both of which I have, and when I
bought them 25 years ago, they weren't power tools and weren't precision
tools, so I'm sure they were covered by the lifetime warranty.
A year ago, when the phillips bit on a brand-new Craftsman 4-in-1
screwdriver snapped in half the first time I used it, the Salesman told
me that the bit portion of that tool had no warranty - only the handle
was covered by the Craftsman warranty. The tool was replaced only after
I tracked down the store manager and read him the riot act.
Fourty-year-old Craftsman ratchets and sockets were built to last for a
lifetime of heavy use. Not so todays' varieties. The difference is
striking when they're put side-by-side.
Incidently, what's the repair policy for Snap-On ratchets? I thought
Snap-On tools were lifetime warranty, but notice that they SELL a
rebuild kit for a ratchet I have, and the cost of that kit is somewhere
around $17.00.
danh...@millcomm.com
In <redgate-ya0235800...@news.dallas.net>, red...@tulsa.oklahoma.net (Kirk Kerekes) writes:
>In article <33e41...@nntp1.nac.net>, danh...@millcomm.com wrote:
>
>.. In <33E0EB...@mdhost.cse.tek.com>, Kurt Krueger
><ku...@mdhost.cse.tek.com> writes:
>.. >> Jamie T. wrote:
>.. >>
>.. >> > ... I broke a ratchet and they wouldn't replace it;
>.. >> > they gave me a "ratchet repair kit".
>.. >
>.. >A puzzling part is that Sears has ratchet repair kits for sale.
>.. >Complete with real price tags.
>.. >
>.. >???? If the ratchet has a liftime guarantee aren't the repair
>.. >kits free with exchange ?
>..
>.. What gripes me about Sears rachets is that they used to carry an excellent
>.. model that didn't need a repair kit. But they got the design from an
>.. employee and didn't want to pay him any royalties. When the employee sued
>.. and won, rather than license the design from him they went back to the old
>.. flaky lever design. And they also made it clear that any other vendor who
>.. attempted to license the design would rot in lawsuit hell. So no one gets
>.. to use this excellent design.
>..
>.. Sears sells some good stuff on occasion, but they sure can be vindictive
>.. bastards when they don't get their way.
>..
>
>I have heard this story so often, I thought I would research it a bit. The
>facts turn out to be a bit at variance with the popular version.
>
><http://www.inc.com/incmagazine/archives/01950301.html> provides a quick
>summary of Pete Roberts and his lifetime quest to perfect the socket
>wrench, including the fact that he _won_ the legal battle with Sears (in
>the '80's), and is currently direct-marketing a new socket wrench design
>incorporating both his original quick-release and new enhancements.
>
>Roberts' original design was _not_ more durable than others commonly in
>use, just easier to use.
Well, I've got one, and it at least feels much more solid that anything
else I've tried. I guess I can't compare durability, since I haven't worn
it out yet. And if Roberts won his suit in the 80s, how come it's taken
until now to get the wrench to market if Sears wasn't blocking him?
The wrench incorporated two distinct features: A quick release mechanism,
and a concentric "lever". The concentric lever makes it a much more solid
system than the classical thumb lever designs.
Jan Penovich
Tr...@uab.edu (Trip Farmer) writes:
>> I've warned my friends to hit me in the head with a 2x4 if I
>> ever mention that I'm going to buy a sears appliance.
>>
>> jan
>Now, go buy that SubZero refrig. and Maytag w/d and see how long before
>you need to have them serviced :-)
Actually, I have an old Maytag w/d that came with my house
and they just keep chugging along doing the job. I also have
a maytag dishwasher that I love (the kenmore I had in my
last house did such a lousy job that I hardly ever used it).
It's certainly a case of YMMV.
jan
--
********************************************************************
TTFN, *jpen...@encore.com* (my opinions are my own
jan penovich *Encore Computer Corp.* not my employer's)
Dan J. Declerck
In article <33eb84f2...@nntp.ix.netcom.com> s.m...@ix.netcom.com writes:
>On Sat, 02 Aug 97 12:22:15 GMT, bws...@cadsmith.com wrote:
>
>>
>>In article <33E0D8...@osf.org>, Michael Condict <con...@osf.org> wrote:
>>>Trip Farmer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >Better go back and re-think that second thought of yours again!
>>>> >Regardless of how many sears appliances you may have shelling out $500
>>>> >a year in anticipation that one (all) of them will fail during a year,
>>>> >can become pretty expensive in a few short years - investing UP to
>>>> >$500 a year to provide for repairs and replacement would be a much
>>>> >smarter move for anyone. And you probably would have enough invested
>>>> >to cover anything that might happen to any non-Sears things you owned
>>>> >too!
>>
>>
>>I bought my new home 12 years ago and have spent only $100 on appliance
>>repairs so far. At $500 per year for a service contract that's
>>(500*12)-100=$5900, NOT even figuring compound interest on balance
>>accumulating over 12 years.
>>I could replace a lot of appliances with $5900, even if they all die at once.
>>Put it in the bank.
>
>unusual repair record. Perhaps you are (a) lucky (b) careful (c) an
>experienced DIY.
>
I've lived in my home for about 8 years, and it came with used appliances.
So far, I've bought a washer and a dryer for less than $1000,
and a furnace fan motor for about $100 (installed).
mondo cheaper than $4000.
-Dan
--
=> Dan DeClerck | EMAIL: decl...@cig.mot.com <=
=> Motorola Cellular CSD | <=
=>"The truth to CDMA... is spreading" | Phone: (847) 632-4596 <=
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bonnie Forman
> >* I need to buy a washer, dryer, and refrigerator. At Circuit City,
> >they have a refrigerator from a company called Roper (I'd never
> >heard of it). The salesman told me it was made by Whirlpool, and
>
> Roper = Whirlpool. Roper models are rather spartan, but share many
> mechanical components with Whirlpool (and Sears-Kenmore)
>
> >* I'll probably get a Kenmore washer/dryer (also made by Whirlpool?)
>
> yes
I'm the original poster regarding washer/dryer/refrige/etc.
Just to follow-up. I went to Sears a couple of times, as well as
Circuit City. Their prices were OK - Sears being a little higher
on the Washer and Dryer.
But I ended up at my local appliance store, and I got a good deal
on all 3 appliances by Whirlpool - comparable or less than both
other larger stores. They were willing to work with me on the price
to make it worth my while, including free delivery.
They were knowledgeable, and not at all pushy. In fact, when I asked
them (mostly out of curiousity) if they offered extended warranty,
they said yes, but I really shouldn't need it. Wow!
Anyway, for those of you in the SF Bay Area - the place I went to
was Contra Costa Appliance, in Walnut Creek. A very positive
experience.
Escrow closes next Tuesday!!!!!!!
Thanks for all your comments.
Bonnie
Greg Vaughn
In article <33e682a5...@199.232.56.18>, uctraing@nospam_ultranet.com
(Bob) wrote:
>I rarely buy new tools when trading in the old. I trade in
>anything and everything that wears out including stuff
>like screwdrivers with dull blades. I've never had a
>problem.
I have a friend who found some broken Craftsman tools some idiot put in a
garage sale. He bought them for next to nothing, then took them to Sears
and got brand new replacements. It's a lifetime guarantee and the tool
itself is proof of purchase.
--
normally a witty sig would go here
Mike
In article <33E236...@digex.nospam.net>, ja...@digex.nospam.net says...
>
>Betsy Schwartz wrote:
>> I understand that they're taking everone's $500 and invesitng it in the
>> stock market or something and that if I invested $500 a year I might have
>> enough to pay for new appliances. I also know that it would just take one
>> or two $1500 applicances to die to TOTALLY ruin our budget (actually, we
>> don't have any $1500 appliances but we've got an ancient furnace...)
>
>I've never heard of a $1500 appliance! I suppose you might get up there
>with a Sub Zero fridge, but washer, drier, dishwasher are all $300-$500,
>a nice fridge might be around $800 or $900.
Correction. A nice over/under fridge costs $800 or $900. An el-cheapo side
by side starts at about $1000. For something with just a hint of quality and
door handles that don't feel like they'll fall off in a year, $1200 is about
what you'll pay.
Keith R. Williams
danh...@millcomm.com wrote:
> >
> >Roberts' original design was _not_ more durable than others commonly in
> >use, just easier to use.
>
> Well, I've got one, and it at least feels much more solid that anything
> else I've tried. I guess I can't compare durability, since I haven't worn
> it out yet. And if Roberts won his suit in the 80s, how come it's taken
> until now to get the wrench to market if Sears wasn't blocking him?
Agreed. I also have one. It also has a double tooth setup so it works
better
in close quarters.
>
> The wrench incorporated two distinct features: A quick release mechanism,
> and a concentric "lever". The concentric lever makes it a much more solid
> system than the classical thumb lever designs.
The other feature is the thumb-wheel for spinning nuts down. I've buy a
set
tomorrow if I could find them. I only have a 3/8 drive. The new Sears
stuff
is junk.
----
Keith R. Williams
k...@ibm.net
(this post will cost me at least a half-dozen spams, which will be
ignored)
Stanley Cline
On Sun, 27 Jul 1997 09:59:23 -0700, bon...@ccnet.com (Bonnie Forman)
wrote:
>* I need to buy a washer, dryer, and refrigerator. At Circuit City,
>they have a refrigerator from a company called Roper (I'd never
>heard of it). The salesman told me it was made by Whirlpool, and
Roper = Whirlpool. Roper models are rather spartan, but share many
mechanical components with Whirlpool (and Sears-Kenmore)
>* I'll probably get a Kenmore washer/dryer (also made by Whirlpool?)
yes
-SC
--
Stanley Cline (Roamer1 on IRC) ** GO BRAVES! GO VOLS!
CLLI MRTTGAMA42G NPA 770 #5ESS ** (wk) scline(at)mindspring.net
(hm) roamer1(at)pobox.com ** http://scline.home.mindspring.com/
**NO SPAM!** http://spam.abuse.net/spam/ and http://www.cauce.org/
The...@theoldschool.org
On Tue, 05 Aug 1997 01:43:57 GMT, uctraing@nospam_ultranet.com (Bob)
wrote:
>
>
>Besides, if you'd stop putting six foot lever bars on a 1/4"
>ratchet, you'd stop breaking them !
But what fun would that be?
I'm a real big fan of the 3 foot flatblade screwdriver. It never seems
to last....
Mark
Scott
On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:46:37 -0500, "Cissy . Thorpe"
<cth...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> wrote:
<snip>>
>> >>example. Especially when, IMO, most of what they sell has the lifespan of
>> >>a pinata. Which brings me back to extremely expensive.
>On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Jan Penovich wrote:
<snip>
>> I've warned my friends to hit me in the head with a 2x4 if I
>> ever mention that I'm going to buy a sears appliance.
>I think this is one of those "one man's meat" thingys....I have all
>Kenmore, except for the Amana fridge that I bought from Wards cause the
>credit people at Sears ticked me off...and I have regretted it ever
>since. All the Kenmores in our house run like champs and have done for
>what seems like eons (washer and dryer 15 years - microwave 18 years -
>water heater nearly 27 years - stove 10 years - I wanted a gas, but there
>was nothing wrong with the electric one we replaced)
>
>If I had to do it again - I'd go with Kenmore. In fact, I am buying my
>daughter a Kenmore sewing machine for Christmas (last years she got a
>Kenmore microwave).
The one underlying thread I see here is that the appliances you bought
20 years ago are NOT the same quality of the current appliances. If I
used your logic I would tell everyone to buy Craftsman power tools - I
have a planer, jointer, beltsander, jig saw, and table saw made by
Craftsman which are all well over 40 years old. They all run great and
are of high quality, however I would NEVER replace any of them with
the current Craftsman model.
Bob
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:39:16 -0500, "John Galbreath Jr."
<mailto:Jo...@ABSCOFireplace.com> wrote:
>Jim Sokoloff wrote:
>
>I just recently took one back and had no problems. I was purchasing
>about $100 worth of tools on the same trip. Suggestion, let the sales
>person know you will go shop the store while HE rebuilds your ratchet,
>or gladly take a replacement.
What a bunch of weenies !
The lifetime guarantee still holds. Sears is trying to economize
a little by fixing the part of the ratchet that usually breaks.
It takes all of about two minutes to install the repair kit.
Bring one in with a broken handle and they'll give you a complete
unit. Bring one in that only needs a repair kit and that's what
you'll get.
I rarely buy new tools when trading in the old. I trade in
anything and everything that wears out including stuff
like screwdrivers with dull blades. I've never had a
problem.
Besides, if you'd stop putting six foot lever bars on a 1/4"
ratchet, you'd stop breaking them !
Bob
(A Craftsman hand tool guy... but a Dewalt power man)
uctraing@nospam_ultranet.com - remove nospam_ to email
Ann Patterson
--
>I wonder, would the Sears
> warranty replace your 20 year old junker with a nice new $1,200 fridge,
> or simply continue to repair it as it limps into extinction? Much like
> automobile insurance, I suspect they would draw the line at the value of
> the item in question - NOT the replacement cost.
>
> Does anyone out there actually have this insurance (and would be willing
> to post the terms)?
>
> Jamie
>
I don't know about this insurance exactly, but a coworker's mom has had a
service contract on her Kenmore fridge for the last 30 years. The most
recent time they came out to do repairs, the part the fridge needed wasn't
made anymore, so they told her to go down to the local Sears and pick out a
new one. They got a nice side-by-side one with the icemaker and the whole
bit.
I suspect she could have bought several new refrigerators with the money
she's paid for the service contract over the years, but I don't know the
details.
--
Ann Patterson
Progress Software
annep AT progress DOT com
Marcia Brott (Medicine)
Cissy . Thorpe (cth...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu) wrote:
: since. All the Kenmores in our house run like champs and have done for
: what seems like eons (washer and dryer 15 years - microwave 18 years -
: water heater nearly 27 years - stove 10 years - I wanted a gas, but
there
: was nothing wrong with the electric one we replaced)
Could this have anything to do with the fact that you bought Kenmores 15,
18, and 27 years ago? A lot can change with a company in that amount of
time. I always thought Kenmores were supposed to be very reliable but we
had pretty much the same experience as Jan when we built our house and got
all Kenmore kitchen appliances. Dishwasher broke down multiple times in
the first year, range controls went bad and needed replacing, basic parts
took months to order, and the repair/warranty people were uniformly
impossible to deal with. Like Jan below, I will avoid Sears like the
plague after our experiences with them.
Marcia
: On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Jan Penovich wrote:
: > Well Trip, me thinks Tom is right about Kenmore appliances.
: > My last house had them (all brand new and all needed repairs
: > almost immediately). Then fools that we are, we purchased a sears
: > water heater in our current house. It was repaired a couple
: > times and replaced all within the first year.
: >
: > Dealing with the service people was a real treat too.
Woody & Lynn Wood
I just wanted to confirm what I saw a couple of other people put in --
Roper is made by Whirlpool -- it's their lower-end line. Once upon a
time I worked for the South Florida area Whirlpool Factory Service
office, and we took service calls for Whirlpool, Roper and KitchenAid!
Lynn Wood
wood...@mindspring.com
Visit my homepage -- Tips and suggestions welcome!
^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
The WOOD Universe
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4315
^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
Please remove the ! in my e-mail address to reply.
Jim Sokoloff
Bob wrote:
>
> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:39:16 -0500, "John Galbreath Jr."
> <mailto:Jo...@ABSCOFireplace.com> wrote:
> >I just recently took one back and had no problems. I was purchasing
> >about $100 worth of tools on the same trip. Suggestion, let the sales
> >person know you will go shop the store while HE rebuilds your ratchet,
> >or gladly take a replacement.
>
> What a bunch of weenies !
Referring to Sears; I can agree with you...
> The lifetime guarantee still holds. Sears is trying to economize
> a little by fixing the part of the ratchet that usually breaks.
> It takes all of about two minutes to install the repair kit.
Agreed.
> Bring one in with a broken handle and they'll give you a complete
> unit. Bring one in that only needs a repair kit and that's what
> you'll get.
The guarantee is a "replacement" guarantee, not a "we'll give you the
parts to fix it your-damn-self" guarantee. I don't care if Sears
installs the repair kit while I wait, but I'm not going to stand for
having the guarantee changed after the fact. (I'm perfectly capable of
installing the repair kit, but I'm equally capable of arguing for my
rights under the terms of their guarantee. As a matter of principle, I
tend to choose the latter.)
If Sears go too far down this path, I'd wager they're going to be
finding a lot more ratchets which need a repair kit AND (secondarily)
have a broken handle... :-)
---Jim
danh...@millcomm.com
In <5s88sf$b...@epx.cis.umn.edu>, mar...@birch.med.umn.edu (Marcia Brott (Medicine)) writes:
>Cissy . Thorpe (cth...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu) wrote:
>
>: since. All the Kenmores in our house run like champs and have done for
>: what seems like eons (washer and dryer 15 years - microwave 18 years -
>: water heater nearly 27 years - stove 10 years - I wanted a gas, but
>there
>: was nothing wrong with the electric one we replaced)
>
>Could this have anything to do with the fact that you bought Kenmores 15,
>18, and 27 years ago? A lot can change with a company in that amount of
>time. I always thought Kenmores were supposed to be very reliable but we
>had pretty much the same experience as Jan when we built our house and got
>all Kenmore kitchen appliances. Dishwasher broke down multiple times in
>the first year, range controls went bad and needed replacing, basic parts
>took months to order, and the repair/warranty people were uniformly
>impossible to deal with. Like Jan below, I will avoid Sears like the
>plague after our experiences with them.
Sears buys their appliances from whomever gives them the best deal. Some
models are fairly good, others not so good. They were selling Kitchenaid
dishwashers awhile back, don't know what they have now.
HVAC MD
There comes a time when you just get sick and tired of bringing the
Craftsman junk back to get replaced. Buy quality.
screwdrivers - Klein
ratchets, wrenches - SK, Proto
power tools - Porter Cable,Milwaukee,
really...@dg-rtp.dg.com_but_mangled_to_stop_junk_email
The one underlying thread I see here is that the appliances you bought
20 years ago are NOT the same quality of the current appliances. If I
used your logic I would tell everyone to buy Craftsman power tools - I
have a planer, jointer, beltsander, jig saw, and table saw made by
Craftsman which are all well over 40 years old. They all run great and
are of high quality, however I would NEVER replace any of them with
the current Craftsman model.
I have to agree with this. I've also heard many tales of woe about lousy
service from Sears. But I love my old 3/8" drill.
Topher Eliot Data General Unix Core Development
(919) 248-6371 eliot at dg-rtp.dg.com
Obviously, I speak for myself, not for DG.
Visit misc.consumers.house archive at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7400
"Do you digest water?" Peter, age 5
Tim Moore
> I have to agree with this. I've also heard many tales of woe about
> lousy service from Sears.
This is the true reason most people complain about Sears products. If
you have Sears stuff you feel the need to have only them service it. You
don't have to - but it ain't a bad idea since they usually know what
they are doing. All repairman aren't always very nice - its unfortunate.
I have had bad results from many non-Sears repairman over the years.
They are people and people are different.
Christine Sanderson
Scott wrote:
> The one underlying thread I see here is that the appliances you bought
> 20 years ago are NOT the same quality of the current appliances. If I
> used your logic I would tell everyone to buy Craftsman power tools - I
> have a planer, jointer, beltsander, jig saw, and table saw made by
> Craftsman which are all well over 40 years old. They all run great and
> are of high quality, however I would NEVER replace any of them with
> the current Craftsman model.
Hi Scott,
You realy should take another look at thier power tools. I just bought a
realy nice set of battery powered ones. They are so nice. I love thier
screwdriver. The drill works good to. I bought the whole set, in a cute
little red case, cost about 250$. I got a sander/w extra pads, a saw
with extra blades, a nifty little light and a drill. +6 batteries and a
charger. I bought the screwdriver seperate. This weekend, I am going to
get the little round saw . Im going to make a picture frame. They also go
with the versa pack battery stuff from black and decker.
I love this stuff, I even bought thier yard tools, like the little hedge
clipper.
The part I realy like, is that they all run on the same batteries, and
because I have 6 batteries, I never run out!
Christine Sanderson
Christine Sanderson
> I'm a real big fan of the 3 foot flatblade screwdriver. It never seems
> to last....
>
> Mark
What could you possibly ever need a 3 foot screw driver for. That would
come up to my waist! Do they even exist, or are you just joking?
Christine
Daniel Born
> >I bought my new home 12 years ago and have spent only $100 on appliance
> >repairs so far. At $500 per year for a service contract that's
> >(500*12)-100=$5900, NOT even figuring compound interest on balance
> >accumulating over 12 years.
> >I could replace a lot of appliances with $5900, even if they all die at once.
> >Put it in the bank.
>
> Man, you outta be bronzed and placed on a pedestal! That is a very
> unusual repair record. Perhaps you are (a) lucky (b) careful (c) an
> experienced DIY.
I don't find it that unusual, we've bought all our appliances 9 years
ago and so far, we've put $0 on repairs! This includes a fridge, stove,
dishwasher, microwave, washer, dryer & freezer. All these appliances
have gone through several moves (4) from apartment to apartment until we
moved into our house. And it's not because I fix'em all myself, they
just don't break (knock on wood ;) ). By the way, this is all "standard"
quality stuff (Camco), no Maytag or Amana (or whatever is the best...)
Regards,
Daniel
Randy Hubbard
Not to change the subject from appliances to "Buying My First House"...
but is there any standard markup builders use on the base price of a new
construction house? Obviously with MANY factors to consider in the
negotiation process, I'm looking to determine how much profit is
"typical" on base price and/or upgrades, in an effort to see how
negotiable the price *really* is on a new construction house.
The sub has houses ranging in price from $170-220K which by most folks
standards are *luxury* single family homes, at least in the mid-west.
Half of the sub is pre-sold, and the builder has at least one other sub
under construction concurrently. Looks like they have enough homes sold
to keep the crews busy for about a year or so right now.
Two models finished and now customer homes are being constructed, so I
expect the *pre-construction* prices to evaporate as demand increases.
Would like to make a fair deal if possible. Advice on margins
appreciated.
Randy
Bob
You put a small pipe on the end of your 3/8" ratchet, then put the
3' screwdriver in the other end of it to get more leverage.
THAT's why they give away so many ratchet rebuilding kits !
Bob
JIM
Bill Seurer wrote:
>
> My father-in-law used to work for Sears. Their performance was not
> rated on how much stuff they sold but on how many service contracts
> they sold. Obviously the real money is in the servicing.
>
> I won't even go into how after 4 trips Sears service finally got my
> broken washing machine running almost as well as before their first
> try at repairing it...
>
> I *DO* think Sears sells good appliances and tools BTW.
> --
>
> Bill Seurer ID Tools and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
> BillS...@vnet.ibm.com BillSeurer AT aol.com
> http://members.aol.com/BillSeurer (replace " AT " with "@" to email me)
> Not these: X...@P64.com c...@l7W.com a...@Bsl.com f...@KQy.com F...@fBb.com
Those service contracts are in my opinion are a rip off to the
consumers. At one time a number of years ago, I use to use them untill
one day a light bulb went off in my haed and I started to do a little
figureing. If your washing machine goes on the blink(it has a lot of
moving parts), and it is 10 years old, if the service person tells you
it is going to cost you $50/75.00 for repair + service charge, call the
junk man and buy a new one. My 8 year old refrigerator just recently
went bad, service person said compressor dead, will run between
$150/250.00 for new one. Baught new refrierator. When you start to add
these $25/50/75/100.00 repair bills together on one piece of applainces,
thay will soon add up.
So figure cost new, years old, repair cost to ,reach a decision.
Yes SEARS was once a premiere store in my area, up to 4/5 years ago,
then they became just a hohum store. I baught a air compressor, taken it
home,pluged it in, had a split seam, had to reweld it. Baught a new
washing machine, after waiting for 1 1/2 weeks for order, they brought
it set it up. Wife going to wash clothes, would not work. Repair person
said had to reorder and wait another 1 1/2 weeks. Told them to remove
from home immediately, I went to competator and got one. Got a big
runaround when I baught a Computer system, The same runaround when I
baught a refrigerator, no one wanted to change the doors to swing the
rigfht way.
After 3/4 telephone calls, I finally told them to remove it immediately
from home. Went to another store and purchased one. After 24 years as a
Sears customer the time had come, so I hand delivered a complaint letter
to the store manager along with our store credit cards and closed out
all accounts. Also sent a complaint letter to the main customer service
people in Illinoise. Now that finally got their attention. Also told
them I was not interested in hearing any of their lame duck excuses nor
any apologetic letters.
So Sears is no longer one of my favorite stores. There are to many
stores out there wanting customers, so you can be choosy. I also must
say that sears is not the only store in my area with poor customer
service. I have also taken my busines else where on a few other stores,
and filed complaints with the state attorney generals consumer complaint
dept.inwhich other people should also do.
Those are my opinions.
JIM
Randy Hubbard
In another example of invasion of privacy, or spamming gone insane... I
and I'm sure thousands of other Internet users were spammed AGAIN by a
legal firm representing Samsung America, and it's affiliates. AFAIK, I
never responded to the original spam, but you can bet you *ss I sent
them a response to their threat, AND I demanded to be placed on a DO NOT
E-MAIL LIST, in conformance with Federal Law.
For those of you who were NOT spammed, and have a point to express
concerning spamming, I have posted the "Legal Threat" below. It's worth
noting that my response was bounced indicating that the law firms AOL
mailbox was full with 522 messages. My suspicions are they have gotten
an *ear full* from people with oppossing views. As soon as their mailbox
is cleared they WILL receive my e-mail!
BTW, does ANYONE know of a court decision that specifically condones
"spamming" ???
***********For your intellectual enlightenment and viewing please...
"On behalf of our client, Samsung America Inc., ("Samsung")
we hereby request that you cease and desist all
inflammatory internet hacking, telephone hacking, flaming,
jamming, and other illegal activities.
If you have responded aversely to a recent bulk email
message from our client, Samsung America, Inc., or from any
of its subsidiary companies, then you may be one of the
people who has performed fraudulent and actionable
transgressions, thereby causing severe harm to our client.
Your email name was provided as being suspected of
connection to various acts of internet terrorism. Your acts
are illegal.
Several messages have suggested that Samsung and/or its
subsidiaries, including but not limited to Sailahead Global
Emporium, www.sailahead.com, and Samsung Electronics,
www.sosimple.com, violated US Federal Laws through
activities commonly called "spamming." This allegation is
unfounded in the law, as spamming is a protected activity
under the laws of free speech.
Our client has asked us to inform you that all of your
future correspondences should be directed to their counsel:
Russell L. Allyn, Attorney at Law
California Sate Bar Number (SBN) 143531
Katz, Hoyt, Seigel & Kapor LLP
Los Angeles, CA
khs...@aol.com
310-473-1300
310-473-7138 (fax)
All incidents of internet terrorism will be prosecuted
where possible, and reported to appropriate law enforcement
authorities as warranted.
Please consider this as your notice to cease all attempts
to harm multi-national corporations who conduct legitimate
commerce on the internet.
Russell L. Allyn, Attorney at Law"
freds
In article <33EB29...@cae.ca>, Daniel Born <db...@cae.ca> wrote:
>I don't find it that unusual, we've bought all our appliances 9 years
>ago and so far, we've put $0 on repairs!
Same here. 18 yr old washer, 18+ on the dryer (bought it used). Just
replaced all the kitchen appliances as part of a remodel they were all
about 20yrs old. The HVAC system is also 20yrs old and only gets a
yearly checkup $65. The only appliance repair or replacement has been a
garbage disposal that was replaced after about 15yrs of use.
Deborah Stevenson
mE0...@txdirect.net> <33EC8E...@wwnet.com> <33ED1F...@wwnet.com>
In <33ED1F...@wwnet.com> Randy Hubbard <race...@wwnet.com> writes:
>In another example of invasion of privacy, or spamming gone insane... I
>and I'm sure thousands of other Internet users were spammed AGAIN by a
>legal firm representing Samsung America, and it's affiliates. AFAIK, I
>never responded to the original spam, but you can bet you *ss I sent
>them a response to their threat, AND I demanded to be placed on a DO NOT
>E-MAIL LIST, in conformance with Federal Law.
No, you weren't just spammed by Samsung, and what's more you never were.
Both of these are revenge spams against Samsung, the latter also for the
attorney named (who is a genuine attorney, though apparently not for
Samsung). They wanted to get people to hurt the company and attorney for
them, and many have apparently obliged.
FWIW, it's useful to post full mail headers (you know, all the received from
lines that show all the relaying); that's usually how it becomes clear
that something isn't at all what it says it is. The headers other people
have posted have indeed told the story.
And there's as yet no explicit federal law stating they have to have an
opt-out list, AFAIK. That comes from extrapolating from telecommunications
law in a manner not yet upheld by courts and considered, by some, to be
more wishful thinking than accurate legal reading.
But really, this is off-topic for misc.consumers, because there's a group
specifically devoted to this problem. I've therefore set followups to
news.admin.net-abuse.email.
Deborah Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Will Bell
In a previous article, Randy Hubbard <race...@wwnet.com> wrote:
>
>Two models finished and now customer homes are being constructed, so I
>expect the *pre-construction* prices to evaporate as demand increases.
>Would like to make a fair deal if possible. Advice on margins
>appreciated.
For what this is worth. The newspaper publishes building permit
information every week. It gives an address and an amount, which I
presume is the amount of money required to build the house. (Anyone
who may know more about this please feel free to jump in.)
For a tract-home "entry level" house selling for approximately $83,000,
the amount on the permit is around $53,000. So less the land value of
around $10,000, I assume that means they are making $20,000 profit on
the home.
This group of homes is now in "phase 4". The price for the same house
goes up about $2000 every time a new phase starts. The only houses
that will be less expensive will be the model homes which will be sold
when the whole project is complete.
So, my advice to you, if you really like and want a house in this
addition, is to get it now. The price definitely won't get cheaper
except for possibly a few fringe exceptions (the model houses, houses
that were built without a buyer, or houses that had a buyer but they
backed out and ate the earnest money).
--
Will Bell -- wbb at netcom dot com -- DeepinahartaTexas
Remove spaces and pluses from email address to reply.
Jim Sokoloff
On Sat, 09 Aug 1997 11:57:56 GMT, uctraing@nospam_ultranet.com (Bob)
wrote:
>You put a small pipe on the end of your 3/8" ratchet, then put the
>3' screwdriver in the other end of it to get more leverage.
>
>THAT's why they give away so many ratchet rebuilding kits !
:-)
No need to risk a screwdriver too: just buy a longer piece of black
pipe. In fact, that's the first trip I made after I bought my 1/2"
drive set from Sears: to a hardware store for a ~$3 2.5 foot section
of black pipe. (Affectionately known at the "BFP", as in "Hand me that
there BFP...") Essential for loosening front axles, rear axles on
Beetles, flywheel nuts, wheel nuts when the car when last worked on by
Hulk Hogan or Mr. Gorilla-with-an-Impact-Wrench, etc.
While on the subject of getting extra abuse (oops, I mean leverage), I
should point out that when using the ring end of a wrench, you can
take another wrench and insert the ring end of that wrench into the
open end of the first wrench and develop a large amount of torque on a
stuck/rusted fastener... I've never personally bent/broke a wrench
doing this, nor know of anyone else who has, but I suppose it's
possible.
---Jim
Rick Ellis
In article <33ED1F...@wwnet.com>,
Randy Hubbard <race...@wwnet.com> wrote:
>In another example of invasion of privacy, or spamming gone insane... I
>and I'm sure thousands of other Internet users were spammed AGAIN by a
>legal firm representing Samsung America, and it's affiliates. AFAIK, I
>never responded to the original spam, but you can bet you *ss I sent
>them a response to their threat, AND I demanded to be placed on a DO NOT
>E-MAIL LIST, in conformance with Federal Law.
Before you react to spams like this you should at least take a close
look at the headers. In this case the spam was a forgery orinating
at a uu.net dial-up.
really...@dg-rtp.dg.com_but_mangled_to_stop_junk_email
>What could you possibly ever need a 3 foot screw driver for. That would
>come up to my waist! Do they even exist, or are you just joking?
>
>Christine
You put a small pipe on the end of your 3/8" ratchet, then put the
3' screwdriver in the other end of it to get more leverage.
THAT's why they give away so many ratchet rebuilding kits !
I don't quite understand why you folks seem to enjoy breaking tools and
then getting them replaced. You get to drive across town, and you didn't
get the bolt out.
When I have something difficult to turn, I use my 3/4" drive T-bar socket
handle, either a 3/4" drive socket or a 3/4" to 1/2" adapter and a 1/2"
socket. Then I put a 4' piece of 2" pipe over the end of that T-bar
driver and haul away. I've never broken a driver or socket this way,
and never failed to loosen whatever I was trying to loosen.
Jay Jacobs
Just wondering how far we could take this.
Jay
bas...@ktb.not.gov
Bob <uctraing@nospam_ultranet.com> wrote:
|You put a small pipe on the end of your 3/8" ratchet, then put the
|3' screwdriver in the other end of it to get more leverage.
|THAT's why they give away so many ratchet rebuilding kits !
Just for curious: What on EARTH do you do with a 3/8" ratchet that
requires 3' of leverage? Oh wait, I just figured it out, you probably
have the 3/8" to 1" adapter...
Bev *To e-mail me, change nOt.gov to nEt*
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Where's the ladies' sty? I desperately need to powder my snout."
-- Wally's Elbonian Mail-Order Bride
Jim Lellman
(wild tangent follows)
I recently read Tom Clancy's novel, Executive Orders. Buried in there was
a statement that the gunners of the Bradleys all bought Sears ratchet
wrenches, because they worked better than the tool that was designed for
the job. Just curiousity, but was this a result of actual research or
just a fabrication for the novel? Sounds silly enough to be true.
Christine Sanderson
Bob wrote:
>
> On 12 Aug 1997 04:44:16 GMT, bas...@ktb.not.gov wrote:
>
> >Bob <uctraing@nospam_ultranet.com> wrote:
> >
> >|You put a small pipe on the end of your 3/8" ratchet, then put the
> >|3' screwdriver in the other end of it to get more leverage.
> >
> >|THAT's why they give away so many ratchet rebuilding kits !
> >
> >Just for curious: What on EARTH do you do with a 3/8" ratchet that
> >requires 3' of leverage? Oh wait, I just figured it out, you probably
> >have the 3/8" to 1" adapter...
> >
> >Bev *To e-mail me, change nOt.gov to nEt*
>
> illustration of how you might break a 3 foot screwdriver.
>
> I was only joking (besides, it was actually a six foot steel bar
> on a 3/8 ratchet, not a 3 foot screwdriver. I'd never abuse a
> screwdriver by using it improperly).
>
> Bob
Bob, Don't teaze me like that, I thought you were serious. :(
Christine (New to using tools)
Bob
Matt Verrochi
On Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:55:14 GMT, soko...@tiac.net (Jim Sokoloff) wrote:
>No need to risk a screwdriver too: just buy a longer piece of black
>pipe. In fact, that's the first trip I made after I bought my 1/2"
>drive set from Sears: to a hardware store for a ~$3 2.5 foot section
>of black pipe. (Affectionately known at the "BFP", as in "Hand me that
>there BFP...") Essential for loosening front axles, rear axles on
>Beetles, flywheel nuts, wheel nuts when the car when last worked on by
>Hulk Hogan or Mr. Gorilla-with-an-Impact-Wrench, etc.
I have a 1/2 ratchet head breaker bar I got from Sears that looses nuts and
impact gun will not.
Since I bought that $30 breaker bar and a 1/2 drive six point socket set, I've
never again used the "pipe-method" or had a 3/8 ratchet explode on me becasue
I had a six foot pipe on it.
"the right tool for the job" makes the job that much easier.
Matt
Verrochi AT tiac DOT net
RC Cars, Parts and Equipment for sale at:
http://www.tiac.net/users/verrochi/RCSALE.htm
Bill Rubin
Jay Jacobs wrote:
>
> Just wondering how far we could take this.
Well, since you asked... Sears Portrait Studio is actually run by the
people who also run the CPI Photo stores at the mall. And they've really
been jacking up the session fees lately...
Bill
George Jefferson
:I've never
:had anything stuck that badly that a little penetrating lubricant,
:patience, and a normal wrench wouldn't get off.
thats alot of trouble when the handle off the floor jack is in reach
and slips right on the end of the ratchet..
--
george jefferson
*note new email, was geo...@mech.seas.upenn.edu
now geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu
Chris Hill
In article <19970806015...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, hva...@aol.com
(HVAC MD) wrote:
> There comes a time when you just get sick and tired of bringing the
> Craftsman junk back to get replaced. Buy quality.
>
> screwdrivers - Klein
Not to mention Xcelite. They also make whole classes of tools that are not
available from Sneers, such as pliers and cutters for electronics
assembly. (See also Erem.) I'm mostly pretty pleased with Cooper Group
tools (Xcelite, Chan-nel-lok, Crescent, Weller, etc.). And for electrical
work, I'm a fan of Greenlee and Ideal. Hydraulic punches *rule!*
> ratchets, wrenches - SK, Proto
Yes! I've always liked both of these brands. Had many of them, until my
tools were stolen :^(
> power tools - Porter Cable,Milwaukee,
Never used PC, but the Milwaukee "Magnum Holeshooter" and "Super Sawzall"
seem to be pretty much indestructible. The Makita cordless drill, OTOH,
leapt to its death from a ladder and has never been right since.
Generally, I like contractor-grade tools (maybe because I *am* a
contractor). Any money you save on tools is lost many times over the first
time it breaks on the job. Cheap tools are a false economy.
--
Chris jchill at dgsys dot com
In a (probably futile) effort to foil junk mailers, I have
phoneticized my address. Read it aloud, and fix it if you'd
like to mail me. Sorry for the too-long sig.
---
What would happen if I pulled the plug on the Reality Engine?
Paul Manly
unid...@mindspring.com wrote:
: On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:46:53 -0400, Bill Rubin <bill...@prodigy.net>
: wrote:
:
: That's interesting because the CPI photo stores at two local malls
: became Wolf Camera stores about 6 months ago! Strange thing is that
: at one of them there already was a Wolf Camera Store and it is still
: operating at the same location and the former CPI is too!
Missed the earlier parts of this post - however, for the information
of all:
Portrait Studios
Beauty Shops
Siding & Roofing
similar businesses
These are private concessions who contract with Sears for space
and use of the Sears name. They can change ownership outside of
Sears (or Wards or Macy's or whatever) the same as any small
business.
Flowers by Wards or Sears used to be in the same category,
but now is handled by a single nationwide 800 number; Wards is
handled by the former contractor who was in charge of all the
Flowers by Wards sub-contractors. Flowers by Sears is sub-
contracted out directly to 1-800-Flowers.
I used to have both of those contracts before they
dropped the local affiliations.
--
Chris Matthaei
seu...@nordruth.rchland.ibm.com (Bill Seurer) writes:
>What I want to know is what in the world you are all working on that has
>nuts so badly stuck you need so much leverage to remove? I've never
>had anything stuck that badly that a little penetrating lubricant,
>patience, and a normal wrench wouldn't get off.
Really, really, really rusty old car exhaust system components. We busted
a 3/8" ratchet with a 3' pipe trying to get the exhaust off my '79 Mustang.
Sears happily replaced it. We ended up getting it loose with a 1/2" breaker
bar.
Chris
David Teichholtz
Bill Seurer (seu...@nordruth.rchland.ibm.com) wrote:
: What I want to know is what in the world you are all working on that has
: nuts so badly stuck you need so much leverage to remove? I've never
: had anything stuck that badly that a little penetrating lubricant,
: patience, and a normal wrench wouldn't get off.
Pulling the suspension parts from many assorted autos. Springs in
my Jeep. The screws that hold in the battery on my wrist watch. (Ok,
just kidding there...)
-David
--
============================================================================
David Teichholtz Looking Glass Technologies