Occupy Protests: Waste of Time, Energy and Taxes

[Just Visiting]

What are these Occupy protesters trying to accomplish? There's a
right way to approach things and a wrong way. Put pressure on the
people that you voted in because they're supposed to represent you.
Money will ALWAYS be unequally distributed when people buy, sell, pay
taxes or not pay taxes. Some people have more, some people have less
and nobody is going to change that - nobody. There has to be some
kind of standard law and order that most people agree on but if these
Occupy protesters keep this up, there's going to be senseless violence
and death because they're trying to take matters into their own hands
instead of exercising the appropriate measures to address their
concerns.

[Bill]

"Just Visiting" wrote in message
> ...Put pressure on the people that you voted in because they're
> supposed to represent you...

They listen only to money to buy them all off! The going rate is
around 166 million dollars to buy off congress. This is a good deal
for corporations and foreign governments which get billions in return.

I think the protests are a refreshing and welcome change with "We the
People"! Up till now, the people have just been a bunch of dumb sheep
doing what they are told on TV.

Perhaps the younger generation can fix this "bought off congress"
problem which is wrecking our country? At least someone is noticing
there is a BIG problem and doing something about it... (for a change)

[Rod Speed]

Just Visiting wrote

> What are these Occupy protesters trying to accomplish?

Some posturing on TV.

> There's a right way to approach things and a wrong way.

Its never that black and white.

> Put pressure on the people that you voted in because they're supposed to represent you.

Not even possible for those fools. There just arent enough of them to matter a damn.

> Money will ALWAYS be unequally distributed when people buy,
> sell, pay taxes or not pay taxes. Some people have more, some
> people have less and nobody is going to change that - nobody.

Yes.

> There has to be some kind of standard law and order that most people agree on

There is.

> but if these Occupy protesters keep this up, there's going to be senseless violence and death

We didnt even see that during the great depression. There's a reason we didnt.

> because they're trying to take matters into their own hands instead
> of exercising the appropriate measures to address their concerns.

They know that that wont do a damned thing.

[Rod Speed]

Bill wrote
> Just Visiting wrote

>> ...Put pressure on the people that you voted in because they're supposed to represent you...

Fat lot of good that will ever do.

> They listen only to money to buy them all off! The going rate is around 166 million dollars to buy off congress.

That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.

> This is a good deal for corporations and foreign governments which get billions in return.

Even sillier.

> I think the protests are a refreshing and welcome change with "We the People"!

More fool you.

> Up till now, the people have just been a bunch of dumb sheep doing what they are told on TV.

Mindlessly silly. Forgotten the 60s already have you ?

> Perhaps the younger generation can fix this "bought off congress" problem which is wrecking our country?

Or perhaps not. And it aint wrecking the country either.

> At least someone is noticing there is a BIG problem and doing something about it... (for a change)

Pity it wont change a damned thing.

Neither did the 60s either.

[Michael Black]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Bill wrote:

>
> I think the protests are a refreshing and welcome change with "We the
> People"! Up till now, the people have just been a bunch of dumb sheep doing
> what they are told on TV.
>

And the "protesters" aren't?

A Canadian magazine starts the idea, what does that say? It's like a
flash mob, see how many will show up. No real point to it, so of course
it can bring in numbers. A specific point would be a filter. People
dutifully passing the message on, unable or unwilling to question or
change it. (Fifteen years ago I made a clear decision to never forward
something sent to me or seen somewhere, I would always write my own words,
and interpretation, because blindly copying and repeating never gives an
indication of whether the repeater understands it.) It was the same with
the anti-globalization movement, a sort of vague thing that brings in so
many groups.

Whatever happened in New York, it becomes the fluff that others are
following. It has to be continuous, rather than showing up every day and
holding a vigil. So they all bring their camping equipment, when they can
likely stay much longer if they don't camp there.

(As an aside, there was a peace camp on Parliament Hill here in Canada in
1984, and it was eventually cleared out, camping forbidden there, because
it was an eyesore. It was. They were in a city, they could have gone
home every night, yet they got carried away, "like sheep" on the concept
of a "peace camp". If you're out at some airforce base, where there may
not be a billet, then setting up a camp can make sense. But that doesn't
translate to an urban environment.)

Note that when the Bonus Marchers went to Washington in 1932, they didn't
have much choice but to camp out, since they were broke due to the
depression, they were coming from all over the country, but that was a
different case.

Once they are camping out, they can have their Woodstock experience. I
remember seeing teenage "Yippies" in Central Park in 1982, having a thrill
being part of something, the something being less important than the
thrill. And then they proceed to follow the rules without question,
duplicating what was done in New York, whether or not situations are the
same.

They only have vague ideas of why they are there. Not a good thing, since
the point of a demonstration is to change people's minds. I should point
out that when I was sixteen, and the teachers were having contract
problems, I knew the stupidity of signs that said "honk for the teachers",
when I wrote about it a few months later I could provide a more coherent
explanation of the point of a demonstration than most.

When it goes elsewhere, it becames even more vague. Why are they camping
out here in Montreal, when unemployment isn't nearly as bad as in the US?
Because they are doing it on Wall Street. But hey, "It's awesome!!!".

"We'll use concensus for decision making". But that again points to the
lack of reason for it all. They show up in a flash mob fashion and then
they have to start thinking up reasons, since they are there and need to
justify it. They were not having a founding meeting of some movement,
they were just showing up somewhere and then realized they needed more
than some time camping out. There are better places to do that
organizing. They might try the internet, using it for networking rather
than advertising space.

And I've seen consesus in action, most people don't really understand it
(I didn't until long after I saw it attempted around civil disobedience).
Most people don't have anything to bring to the table, they can't bring in
something radically different or insight from their lives, it's never
clear if it's because they can't be creative or the mass crushes them.
So the arguments become over tiny points "should we allow knives or not?",
rather than trying to synthesize a wide field of ideas and experience.

I use to think people would go through a process of change in coming to the
internet, but sadly as the mass came to the internet, they changed the
internet rather than change themselves. Thus I have a far better insight
into mass movement than I'd previously had (which was enough already,
though). It is the Age of Exclamation, people easily amused at the
trivial, the internet allowing for that trivial to travel, the internet
allow people to participate by repeating messages sent to them, being a
mindless carrier of virus, rather than creators of original content. And
some of that is what's going on in these "protests", a mindless following
the mass, now made easy because of the internet. A decade ago, one paper
here had an article about the anti-globalization movement's use of the
internet (old media is dazzled by the internet, well once it got big),
and someone was asked "why are the protesters mostly white?" and the reply
was "Umh, because they don'thave internet?" They aren't really using the
internet, they are using a utility, following others rather than defining
it. I know, I was there fifteen years ago, and I couldnt' leverage change
that was needed based on 20 years of seeing small groups operate. There's
that time they were protesting locally against apartheid about 1986 and
someone was asked in the paper "why aren't blacks participating?" and
the reply was "I don't know". That's the level of much of the
participation. I wrote that group, and then the next time they did civil
disobedience, there were my words in the paper, not credited to me, on why
no blacks were participating.

Far better for participants to show up with an essay on why they are
there, and only let them in if they have something different to say (or
better to do it on the internet ahead of time). That's far more radical
than having the group try to write some document, nitpicking over spelling
and grammar, or specific words, but no overall guidance on why they are
writing it, or what they hope to accomplish it (I saw that happen once,
too, people too blindly "following the alternative rules" to question what
we were doing). Or better yet, use the internet for that essay sharing,
get the definition worked out before the protest begins.

Then they start making their camps like a Rainbow Gathering. Who cares if
they have a library on Wall Street? A communal kitchen? That suggests the
camping is more important than having a reason to be there. They want
their fun, they want to experience a communal experience. Which may be
valid in itself, but there are better places for it (camping on concrete
is not nearly as good as camping in the woods.)

If they want to set up an alternative society, do it at home, where there
is more chance of it being permanent.

The most oppressive situation is the mass, because it just moves along,
not enough willing to question it, to resist the mass. Try to resist and
you are ignored, or you are the only one left on the other side of the
street (that happened one time when I went to Ottawa with the Tibetans,
someone wanting to be on the side of the street where the Chinese embassy
was, the cops not wanting that, and slowly some moved over until the mass
followed, unwilling to resist, leaving me the lone person on the opposite
sidewalk, despite me likely being the only one who'd been arrested
before).

No, it's a relatively small mass participating, but once there one is lost
to the mass.

Once they were in the spotlight, who controls it? The participants or the
media that is reporting on them? I've seen people repeat back what
they've heard, because it was right in front of them, unable to understand
it or modify it, so I'm certain some of what's going on is now controlled
by the media, if some "expert" says something about it, that can be
incorporated by the mass, in need of something but unable to define itself

The thing is, one can and should be critical, and that's far more
important in the side one identifies with than in going after the "other
side". About 25 years ago, I wrote about how there should be buttons and
tshirts that say "Question Assumptions" rather than "Question Authority"
because people would just follow the rules of the left without
questioning, which always indicated to me that they couldn't judge those
rules, they just followed them. I can give endless examples of the left
simply following the mass, a reflection of society in general. Nobody is
criticising this, except "the other side", when people speaking up against
this mass would make whatever good there might be in there actually valid.

Michael

[Bob F]

The protestors are using their constitutionally provided rights to protest the
inequity in our country. There is very little that a few of them are doing that
is illegal, and some of the things that are, are anti vagrancy laws conveniently
being used to deprive them of their rights. A few real lawbreakers get arrested.
The majority are peaceful patriotic Americans asserting their rights. If you've
been to any of these gathering, you'd see that.

[Just Visiting]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 08:41:33 -0700, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The few protesters that I've heard speak reminds me of Woodstock. It
looks like a great big party with costumes, free food, drinking,
drugs, video gaming, meeting new people and having sex. It's the
ultimate party crowd! No wonder it went global.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 08:41:33 -0700, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote:

No, they are most certainly not. They are "protesting" on private property
and interfering with the police and with the lives of others. There is no
such Constitutional right.

[Bill]

"Rod Speed" wrote in message

> Bill wrote
>> Just Visiting wrote
>
>>> ...Put pressure on the people that you voted in because they're
>>> supposed to represent you...
>
> Fat lot of good that will ever do.
>
>> They listen only to money to buy them all off! The going rate is
>> around 166 million dollars to buy off congress.
>
> That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
>

From the following link...
"Physicians and other health professionals are traditionally the
largest source of federal campaign contributions in this sector, which
contributed a record $166.8 million to federal candidates during the
2008 election cycle."

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=H

[Bob F]

Watch MSNBC rather than FOX. You'll get a whole different idea of them. Or, go
down and actually talk to them yourself.

[Bob F]

That "private" property are parks that builders were required to build as part
of their agreement to be able to build the buildings they wanted. They are
public space required to be provided and maintained by the builders or owners by
their agreement with the regulating agencies..

[Rod Speed]

Bill wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>> Bill wrote
>>> Just Visiting wrote

>>>> ...Put pressure on the people that you voted in because they're
>>>> supposed to represent you...

>> Fat lot of good that will ever do.

>>> They listen only to money to buy them all off! The going rate is around 166 million dollars to buy off congress.

>> That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.

> From the following link...
> "Physicians and other health professionals are traditionally the
> largest source of federal campaign contributions in this sector,

Easy to claim. Pity that is straight from their arse too, we can tell from the smell.

> which contributed a record $166.8 million to federal candidates during the 2008 election cycle."

Pity that didnt buy them all off...

> http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=H

Just because some fool claims something doesnt make it gospel.

[The Real Bev]

On 10/16/2011 11:32 AM, Bob F wrote:

> k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>
>> No, they are most certainly not. They are "protesting" on private
>> property and interfering with the police and with the lives of
>> others. There is no such Constitutional right.
>
> That "private" property are parks that builders were required to build as part
> of their agreement to be able to build the buildings they wanted. They are
> public space required to be provided and maintained by the builders or owners by
> their agreement with the regulating agencies..

If the builders had envisioned having to clean up after occupation by
pigs they probably would have negotiated differently.

--
Cheers, Bev
=====================================================
Election 2008:
There's never been a better time to vote libertarian.

[17/10/11]

In article <kuik97961etdg8gel...@4ax.com>,

so you're a republican?

[Bob F]

The Real Bev wrote:
> On 10/16/2011 11:32 AM, Bob F wrote:
>
>> k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>
>>> No, they are most certainly not. They are "protesting" on private
>>> property and interfering with the police and with the lives of
>>> others. There is no such Constitutional right.
>>
>> That "private" property are parks that builders were required to
>> build as part of their agreement to be able to build the buildings
>> they wanted. They are public space required to be provided and
>> maintained by the builders or owners by their agreement with the
>> regulating agencies..
>
> If the builders had envisioned having to clean up after occupation by
> pigs they probably would have negotiated differently.

As I understand it, the "occupiers" are doing a pretty good job of cleaning up
after themselves.

[Just Visiting]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:29:36 -0700, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>

I'm nonpartisan but I watch CNN and FOX. I believe that between these
two networks, the news is more balanced. MSNBC is slanted too left.

[Bob F]

Just Visiting wrote:
>> Watch MSNBC rather than FOX. You'll get a whole different idea of
>> them. Or, go down and actually talk to them yourself.
>>
> I'm nonpartisan but I watch CNN and FOX. I believe that between these
> two networks, the news is more balanced. MSNBC is slanted too left.

Funny. Fox is so blatently right wing that they even openly contribute to
republican campaigns. CNN is heading right all the time.

[Just Visiting]

No, I'm nonpartisan. And I agree with "The Real Bev" that these
protesters should be in DC where the hands that feed the kitty are
located.

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

In article <dpnm97trjl8r2q83k...@4ax.com>,

Just Visiting <nospam-...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:01:18 -0700, 17/10/11
> <youwill...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >In article <kuik97961etdg8gel...@4ax.com>,
> > Just Visiting <nospam-...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> What are these Occupy protesters trying to accomplish? There's a
> >> right way to approach things and a wrong way. Put pressure on the
> >> people that you voted in because they're supposed to represent you.
> >> Money will ALWAYS be unequally distributed when people buy, sell, pay
> >> taxes or not pay taxes. Some people have more, some people have less
> >> and nobody is going to change that - nobody. There has to be some
> >> kind of standard law and order that most people agree on but if these
> >> Occupy protesters keep this up, there's going to be senseless violence
> >> and death because they're trying to take matters into their own hands
> >> instead of exercising the appropriate measures to address their
> >> concerns.
> >
> >so you're a republican?
>
> No, I'm nonpartisan. And I agree with "The Real Bev" that these
> protesters should be in DC where the hands that feed the kitty are
> located.

those same kittys, although not addressed at the moment, are in every state and
city.

How much attention would those beltway bandits pay if it were only in one city?
It must scare the bejeezus out of them that it's in so many cities. Sort of like
spam...send out 330 million of them and even a 1 per cent response gives you
over 3 million riled up citizens

[Just Visiting]

You're right, there's the state and city kitties but, then, there's
the grandest, biggest kitty in all the USA - the Federal Kitty.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

You, like the protesters, are full of shit. ...though _maybe_ you didn't shit
on a cop car.

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

In article <jgqm97tpefm5ha5r9...@4ax.com>,

think nationally, act locally

--

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ac viverra tellus ullamcorper. Vivamus non nisi suscipit nisi egestas venenatis.
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In pretium metus eu diam blandit accumsan. Ut eu lorem sed odio porttitor
blandit.

[Bob F]

Too much FOX "news" for you.

[Vandy Terre]

Maybe they should start camping out in the offices and or the homes of Congress.
Congress seems to have plenty of money. It is other people that Congress wishes
to settle for less.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Are you saying that it didn't happen? Or are you too stupid to have read
newspapers, too?

[h]

"Michael Black" <et...@ncf.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.11...@darkstar.example.net...
Drivel snipped.
Dude. Bloviate much?

[The Real Bev]

On 10/17/2011 02:03 PM, Bob F wrote:

> k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> "Bob F"<bobn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The Real Bev wrote:
>>>> On 10/16/2011 11:32 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>> k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, they are most certainly not. They are "protesting" on
>>>>>> private property and interfering with the police and with the
>>>>>> lives of others. There is no such Constitutional right.
>>>>>
>>>>> That "private" property are parks that builders were required to
>>>>> build as part of their agreement to be able to build the buildings
>>>>> they wanted. They are public space required to be provided and
>>>>> maintained by the builders or owners by their agreement with the
>>>>> regulating agencies..
>>>>
>>>> If the builders had envisioned having to clean up after occupation
>>>> by pigs they probably would have negotiated differently.
>>>
>>> As I understand it, the "occupiers" are doing a pretty good job of
>>> cleaning up after themselves.
>>
>> You, like the protesters, are full of shit. ...though _maybe_ you
>> didn't shit on a cop car.

Before I saw the photo I figured the guy shat on the hood or trunk or
something. Shitting on the door seems like it might create a bigger
mess on the shitter than on the shittee. OTOH, I don't think the
organizers gave IQ tests before allowing potential protesters to join.

And wasn't somebody actually paying protestors to protest? Just saw a
headline or something...

> Too much FOX "news" for you.

Drudge, AP...

--
Cheers, Bev
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"If the Eskimos have a thousand different words for "snow," does this
mean the French have a thousand different words for "surrender?"

[Mrs Irish Mike]

On Oct 18, 11:21 pm, The Real Bev <bashley...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Cheers, Bev
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> "If the Eskimos have a thousand different words for "snow," does this
>   mean the French have a thousand different words for "surrender?"

If you want to sound ignorant, that's your choice. But at least know
the facts:

WWII deaths:

France- 567,000 people or 1.35% of population
United States- 416,000 people or 0.32% of population

additionally:

USSR- 23,400,000 people or 13.88% of population.

United States single handedly won the war only in John Wayne movies
and in the minds of the ignorant.

[Rod Speed]

Mrs Irish Mike wrote

> The Real Bev <bashley...@gmail.com> wrote

>> Cheers, Bev
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> "If the Eskimos have a thousand different words for "snow," does this
>> mean the French have a thousand different words for "surrender?"

Dutch would have made more sense.

> If you want to sound ignorant, that's your choice. But at least know the facts:

You wouldnt know what the real facts where if they bit you on your lard arse.

> WWII deaths:

> France- 567,000 people or 1.35% of population
> United States- 416,000 people or 0.32% of population

> additionally:

> USSR- 23,400,000 people or 13.88% of population.

> United States single handedly won the war only in
> John Wayne movies and in the minds of the ignorant.

Without the US, Adolf would have won.

[20/10/11]

In article <65a2ee7d-fe08-4c70...@h23g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,

of those deaths in France, the majority would have been after surrender and
before liberation.

of those deaths of US forces those would mostly be while trying to liberate
those that would later be ungrateful.

but if you want to use statistics, look up the number of planes, tanks, ships,
locomotives, jeeps, tons of copper, barrels of fuel, tons of food, tons of
medical supplies, bullets, bombs, rockets, guns, tubes etc that were shipped to
England to be used in or against Germany. This of coures doesn't count the
lend/lease sent to the Soviets.

John Wayne didn't singlehandedly win the war for America, but Philippe Pétain
single handedly lost the war for France

[The Real Bev]

We were not discussing who died. At least I wasn't.

I saw this on Craigslist the other day:

"FOR SALE CHEAP -- French WW2 military rifle. Excellent condition.
Never fired, dropped once."

--
Cheers, Bev
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Do not try to solve all life's problems at once -- learn to
dread each day as it comes. -- Donald Kaul

[Rod Speed]

20/10/11 wrote

> Mrs Irish Mike <wilm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The Real Bev <bashley...@gmail.com> wrote

>>> "If the Eskimos have a thousand different words for "snow," does
>>> this mean the French have a thousand different words for "surrender?"

>> If you want to sound ignorant, that's your choice. But at least know the facts:

>> WWII deaths:

>> France- 567,000 people or 1.35% of population
>> United States- 416,000 people or 0.32% of population

>> additionally:

>> USSR- 23,400,000 people or 13.88% of population.

>> United States single handedly won the war only in
>> John Wayne movies and in the minds of the ignorant.

> of those deaths in France, the majority would have been after
> surrender and before liberation.

Fraid not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#endnote_France

> of those deaths of US forces those would mostly be while trying to liberate those

Yes.

> that would later be ungrateful.

Nope.

> but if you want to use statistics, look up the number of planes, tanks,
> ships, locomotives, jeeps, tons of copper, barrels of fuel, tons of food,
> tons of medical supplies, bullets, bombs, rockets, guns, tubes etc that
> were shipped to England to be used in or against Germany. This of
> coures doesn't count the lend/lease sent to the Soviets.

> John Wayne didn't singlehandedly win the war for America,
> but Philippe Pétain single handedly lost the war for France

Fraid not. There was very little support for doing anything other than puttting their hands up.

With Holland in spades.

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

In article <9g9uf7...@mid.individual.net>,
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Fraid not
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#endnote_France

does it hurt to be as stupid as you are or have you finally just become used to
it?

From your reference:



France

41,700,000
217,600
350,000

567,600 (total deaths)

1.35


===============================================================

^Q France
Military war dead include 150,000 regular forces (1939­40 Battle of France
92,000; 1940­45 on Western Front (World War II) 58,000; 20,000 French resistance
fighters and 40,000 POWs in Germany.[156] There were an additional 5,000
military deaths in French Indochina.[157] The pro-German Vichy France forces
lost 2,653 killed.[158] Vadim Erlikman a Russian journalist, estimates losses of
Africans in the French Colonial Forces at about 22,000.[159] French deaths in
German Army (30­40,000), mostly men conscripted in Alsace-Lorraine, are not
included in these totals, they are included with Germany
Civilian losses include 120,000 killed due to military action and 230,000
victims of the Nazi reprisals and genocide (including 83,000 Jews).[156] 752
civilians were killed during the US air attacks on French Tunisia in
1942­43.[160] R. J. Rummel estimates the deaths of 20,000 anti-Fascist Spanish
refugees resident in France who were deported to Nazi camps, these deaths are
included with French civilian casualties.[29] The genocide of Roma people was
15,000 persons.[140] Jewish Holocaust victims totaled 83,000.[161]


===============================================================

approx 217000 military vs approx 350000 civilian (you know those after surrender
and before liberation)

I'll leave it up to your feeble mind to figure out which is the larger


===============================================================





 United States

131,028,000
416,800
1,700

418,500 (total deaths)

0.32