New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
Dan Musicant
they are with a program that might install a heater in my house
(Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the
conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost
2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's
been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since
I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others
before) in 2000.
I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance
programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help
putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and
functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it
didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check
out the house.
The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a
plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could
have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and
a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it
sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how
for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or
Wednesday (today's Sunday).
The old heating system sent up heat through a grate in the floor, AFAIK
being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living
room.
This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to
the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater
(heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one
in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and
the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or
have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to
the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that,
but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising
up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell
call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me
an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it
will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates
from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher
amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. He says they will provide
6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and
one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl
space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get
equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old
heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think
there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair.
They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form
he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The
heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal
ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He
said this included pressure testing.
He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest
if I start paying $450/month.
Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around?
The company is California Energy Services, and their site is
californiaenergyservices.com.
This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible
to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're
called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might
want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I
keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than
necessary. Is that a reasonable idea?
Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
Smitty Two
Dan Musicant <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> Does this seem like a good/great smart deal?
It sounds like a complete scam.
> Or should I shop around?
Yes.
Dan Musicant
may have heard of them, said they are extremely good, I may have seen
them at Home Depot), said their warranty (10 year limited parts and
labor and limited lifetime warranty on heat exchanger) would extend to
new owner if I sell the house, something he said only Trane does. The
form said it's a 2 stage variable air flow system.
Dan
a2...@altavista.net
me.
--- snip ---
Bob F
> If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it
> will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE
> (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax
> credit of $400.
Sounds like an awful lot of money. Get an estimate from a contractor you call
and see how it compares before you even consider this. Plus, check with your
state contractors licensing agency about the contractor's reputation, and google
their name plus the word complaints,or scam, or crime. When you contact the
state, make sure you have their state contractor's license #.
bob haller
price sounds too high 3 years ago I got a goodman furnace and air
install for 3500 bucks with 10 year warranty..... complete price to
fed tax credit that year
John Weiss
> I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says
> they are with a program that might install a heater in my house
> (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the
> conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost
> 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater
> that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house,
> rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was
> renting with others before) in 2000.
. . .
> If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it
> will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE
> (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax
> credit of $400.
ANY "offer" with a 3-day deadline is likely to be a scam. $7500 for a
single Trane 95% furnace is WAY TOO MUCH even BEFORE any "vouchers,"
rebates, or credits!
If you really need a new furnace, call several reputable companies and
get estimates. Trane, York, Lennox, and a few other major furnace
brands are equivalent in most respects.
RonB
That kind of approach is almost guaranteed to be a scam. Best
approach is to call one or more local contractors that handle
recognizable products and get quotes.
RonB
cubby
Run a mile. That is an outrageous price, and the sales approach is an
insult to your intelligence. He will probably come back with another
rebate when you tell him you're not interested, but don't even think
about it. Do it properly and get three quotes from reputable local
contractors. Use servicemagic.com if you don't know anyone. Explain
to your contractors about your need for flexibility to heat different
zones (which I imagine should be easy).
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
As others have indicated, it's a scam. Anyone cold-calling you, for such
purchases, is a scammer. You've already shown interest, so expect to be
hounded for months.
Gary Heston
>they are with a program that might install a heater in my house
Unsolicited calls concerning home improvement/repair are generally
scams.
[ ... ]
>call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me
>an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it
>will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates
>from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher
>amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. [ ... ]
Have you called PG&E and ask them about these vouchers and rebates? Or
checked on their web site to see if they have any such program listed?
[ ... ]
>there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair.
>They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form
>he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The
>heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal
>ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He
>said this included pressure testing.
Red flag; inconsistent comments. 2" ducting would be tiny.
>He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest
>if I start paying $450/month.
What's the interest rate, and is that actually no interest for a year,
or you just don't pay the interest for a year and it accumulates on the
balance of the loan?
>Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around?
>The company is California Energy Services, and their site is
>californiaenergyservices.com.
>
>This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible
>to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're
>called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might
>want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I
>keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than
>necessary. Is that a reasonable idea?
Closing off ducts in a common practice, but there are limits to how many
can be closed at once.
I think you'd be better off with an electric space heater; it'll heat
one room fine (assuming your wiring is OK) and should cost less than
$20 to purchase. A spare blanket is also an inexpensive item to deal
with cold snaps.
Gary
Robert Green
news:7be66990-064c-4bfe...@n28g2000vbs.googlegroups.com...
RonB
-------------------------------------------------------
Better approach is to call the city and get the real scoop. Scammers need
to be scammed themselves. I'd certainly help the local government set a
trap for them. This deal certainly has the smell of a ripoff to it.
--
Bobby G.
RonB
Let me provide some perspective. We built a new home 2-1/2 years
ago. We installed a Lennox 94% efficiency furnace and Lennox Seer 16
A/C. Cost, which included installation of all ductwork, dryer duct
AND parts and labor to install 15' of triple wall fireplace flue was
$10,150.
Find a contractor.
Malcolm Hoar
There's your first red flag, right there!
>Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around?
Shop around!!! Never, never, ever, make a major purchase
based on a single, unsolicited, high pressure sales pitch.
That's insane and you will get burned.
I'm the Bay Area and replaced my furance and central air
last year. Cost was $5k before PG&E and tax rebates. And
yes, I had quotes ranging up to $25k! This for a 2500 sq ft
single family home.
My chosen installer was fully licensed, has a squeaky
clean record with the BBB, and came highly recommended
by a neighbor who replaced his system some months earlier.
--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| ma...@malch.com Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jim Elbrecht
>I get an unsolicited call around a month ago
You don't need to say any more. Look at whatever they told you with
a giant dose of skepticism. There is a very tiny chance that they
are all legit and a great deal. But you won't know that until you
call some local folks, get some references, and check their work.
-snip-
>Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around?
>The company is California Energy Services, and their site is
>californiaenergyservices.com.
Go to your favorite search engine and enter this string exactly as I
show it on the next line;
"California Energy Services" scam
That should give you some interesting reading to sort through.
Jim
Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
> He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest
> if I start paying $450/month.
For $450/month you can use electric spaces heaters much more cheaply
And while it has the earmarks of a scam, what kind of prices did you get from
the contractors you called?
Colbyt
"Dan Musicant" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:6k3117ddimvidcq6e...@4ax.com...
Sounds like a San Francisco deal to me. I do hope they lube you well.
Stormin Mormon
interested or motivated enough to make your own calls
before now, there must not be much of a need. I'd walk, run,
limp, or hobble away from these scammers.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Colbyt" <colbyt@-SPAMBLOCK-lexkyweb.com> wrote in message
news:R46dnbLHhe-3bY3T...@insightbb.com...
"Dan Musicant" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:6k3117ddimvidcq6e...@4ax.com...
>I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a
>woman who says
> they are with a program that might install a heater in my
> house
> (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's
> where the
>
> Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I
> shop around?
> The company is California Energy Services, and their site
> is
> www.californiaenergyservices.com.
hr(bob) hofmann@att.net
Call the local attorney generals office and also the Better Business
bureau and find out if the company has any complaonts. ALso google
the name of the company and see if there are complaints on the
internet.
Dan Musicant
wrote:
:In article <6k3117ddimvidcq6e...@4ax.com>,
:Dan Musicant <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
:>I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says
:>they are with a program that might install a heater in my house
:>(Berkeley, CA). [ ... ]
:
:Unsolicited calls concerning home improvement/repair are generally
:scams.
I've never let one get past my door before, but I did call my utility a
few weeks ago and ask if this company (California Energy Services) is
"legit" and they said yes and they didn't have the sound of a scamming
outfit so I decided to let them come and see what transpires.
:
: [ ... ]
:
:>call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me
:>an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it
:>will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates
:>from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher
:>amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. [ ... ]
:
:Have you called PG&E and ask them about these vouchers and rebates? Or
:checked on their web site to see if they have any such program listed?
I went to PG&E's website this morning (it was one of the google hits
when I looked up California Energy Services) and I saw rebates that
appeared to be consistent with what these people are saying. That
doesn't prove a lot, though. The price could be way to high. I have to
consider this strongly based on the response to my OP. I will absolutely
not sign anything right now. I'm going to call contractors. I have no
reason to rush (other than the hurry up, the rebates/incentives may
evaporate very quickly admonition from the guy who came over yesterday,
but I'm not going for that). I've lived here with no central heating for
27 years, what's another winter?
:
: [ ... ]
:
:>there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair.
:>They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form
:>he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The
:>heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal
:>ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He
:>said this included pressure testing.
:
:Red flag; inconsistent comments. 2" ducting would be tiny.
Check. I was wondering that (the 2"). What's inconsistent there? There's
a lot that wasn't talked about, though. Lots of reasons to ask
questions. I want to know with any job what the total cost is going to
be before I sign. Also, who's paying for permits.
:
:>He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest
:>if I start paying $450/month.
:
:What's the interest rate, and is that actually no interest for a year,
:or you just don't pay the interest for a year and it accumulates on the
:balance of the loan?
Don't know. Absolutely don't know.
:
:>Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around?
:>The company is California Energy Services, and their site is
:>californiaenergyservices.com.
:>
:>This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible
:>to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're
:>called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might
:>want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I
:>keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than
:>necessary. Is that a reasonable idea?
:
:Closing off ducts in a common practice, but there are limits to how many
:can be closed at once.
:
:I think you'd be better off with an electric space heater; it'll heat
:one room fine (assuming your wiring is OK) and should cost less than
:$20 to purchase. A spare blanket is also an inexpensive item to deal
:with cold snaps.
:Gary
:
I have several space heaters, more than enough. I've been using them
judiciously for several years along with a couple of 250 watt heat lamps
(in 2 different rooms) suspended from the ceiling that are either on or
off depending on the weather. A lamp like that can raise the temperature
of a small room by 10 degrees after a couple of hours.
One reason I want central heating is that a buddy of mine (well, he
lives 130 miles away) tells me that I can't expect to sell the house
without it. He says no bank will finance a mortgage on a house without
an installed heating system. I think not having a heater is also a no no
if I want a general homeowner's insurance policy. My current policy is
for the most part just fire insurance with the California Fair Plan.
Dan
Bob F
>>> there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair.
>>> They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the
>>> form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to
>>> 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The
>>> form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as
>>> required by law." He said this included pressure testing.
>>
>> Red flag; inconsistent comments. 2" ducting would be tiny.
>
> Check. I was wondering that (the 2"). What's inconsistent there?
The 2" flue is probably 2" PVC pipe for the combustion air and exhaust to/from
the furnace. That's what they use for high efficiency furnaces.
Lou
2-3 years ago in my 2700 square foot house.
Before you sign anything, check this outfit out with your county/state
consumer affairs department. Also shop around, that price sounds steep.
"Dan Musicant" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:6k3117ddimvidcq6e...@4ax.com...
Evan
> In article <6k3117ddimvidcq6emqvsj36hmnficq...@4ax.com>,
@Gary:
Clearly you are not informed about all the types and flavors of HVAC
equipment out there... 2" duct work is quite common in retrofit
applications and uses a higher pressure fan system to move the air...
The 2" duct hose can be fished through walls without breaking into
them in most situations... The smaller sized duct hoses are used
with the systems that have the small round outlets in the ceiling
where you would need one outlet per set amount of square footage
in each room depending on your building's heat loss/gain conditions...
~~ Evan
sf
wrote:
> I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says
> they are with a program that might install a heater in my house
> (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the
> conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost
> 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's
> been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since
> I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others
> before) in 2000.
>
> I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance
> programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help
> putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and
> functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it
> didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check
> out the house.
>
> The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a
> plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could
> have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and
> a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it
> sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how
> for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or
> Wednesday (today's Sunday).
Zone heating is done often in the SFBA, but you're on a tight budget
and the amount they want to charge is steep. Call Atlas for a
comparison estimate. They are an old, reliable company around here.
http://www.atlasheating.com/
Do what others have advised and check out the installation company
thoroughly. Do your homework; it's a lot of money to be spending.
http://www.trane.com/Residential/Trane-Owners/Energy-Tax-Credit-Summary
" As a part of the recently passed tax bill, Congress modified and
extended its energy efficiency tax credits for appliances, new homes
and retrofits to existing homes, which includes the 25C heating and
cooling equipment tax incentive for another year. The new bill extends
eligibility to the end of 2011, but reduces the incentive to a $500**
maximum tax credit. " Read more about what qualifies for the rebate
here - http://www.trane.com/Residential/Trane-Owners/Tax-Stimulus-2011
--
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
DGDevin
"Dan Musicant" wrote in message
news:6k3117ddimvidcq6e...@4ax.com...
> I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says
> they are with a program that might install a heater in my house
> (Berkeley, CA).
Take a pass. There is always another deal around the corner, and anyone who
says you need to sign right now should cause you concern. You should get
quotes from at least two other contractors, and you should ask for the
numbers of several customers you can talk to about their experiences with
this company. From what you posted here this company smells fishy to me, at
the very least they're trying to over-charge you.
John Weiss
> :>He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without
> interest :>if I start paying $450/month.
> :
> :What's the interest rate, and is that actually no interest for a
> year, :or you just don't pay the interest for a year and it
> accumulates on the :balance of the loan?
>
> Don't know. Absolutely don't know.
BEWARE! Some of these "deals" require you to pay ALL interest on the
loan if you do not pay it off in full before the end of the [one year]
initial term! Find out the interest rate AND the terms!
Further, ANY "deal" like that implies that a discount is available for
cash, since the company has to "buy" the loan. I got a 13% cash
discount on my last furnace; you should be able to find a home
improvement loan for less than that if you have reasonable credit...
> :>They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the
> form :>he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to
> 10ft." The :>heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The
> form says "Seal :>ducting system to current Title 24 standards as
> required by law." He :>said this included pressure testing.
> :
> :Red flag; inconsistent comments. 2" ducting would be tiny.
>
> Check. I was wondering that (the 2"). What's inconsistent there?
> There's a lot that wasn't talked about, though. Lots of reasons to ask
> questions. I want to know with any job what the total cost is going to
> be before I sign. Also, who's paying for permits.
With the new high-efficiency furnaces, 2" PVC piping is used for
combustion air intake and exhaust. There is no more large galvanized
flue through the roof.
John Weiss
> Clearly you are not informed about all the types and flavors of HVAC
> equipment out there... 2" duct work is quite common in retrofit
> applications and uses a higher pressure fan system to move the air...
> The 2" duct hose can be fished through walls without breaking into
> them in most situations... The smaller sized duct hoses are used
> with the systems that have the small round outlets in the ceiling
> where you would need one outlet per set amount of square footage
> in each room depending on your building's heat loss/gain conditions...
I would guess that the higher velocity air from a 2" duct would be
quite noisy. How is the noise controlled?
James
> I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says
> they are with a program that might install a heater in my house
> conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost
> 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's
> been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since
> I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others
> before) in 2000.
>
> I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance
> programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help
> putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and
> functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it
> didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check
> out the house.
>
> The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a
> plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could
> have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and
> a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it
> sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how
> for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or
> Wednesday (today's Sunday).
>
> being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living
> room.
>
> This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to
> the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater
> (heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one
> in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and
> the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or
> have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to
> the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that,
> but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising
> up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell
> an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it
> will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates
> from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher
> 6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and
> one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl
> space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get
> equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old
> heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think
> he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The
> heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal
> ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He
> said this included pressure testing.
>
> if I start paying $450/month.
>
> The company is California Energy Services, and their site is
> californiaenergyservices.com.
>
> This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible
> to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're
> called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might
> want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I
> keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than
> necessary. Is that a reasonable idea?
>
What I would look at, were I in your position, is something I'm
looking at.
My smallish house was built in the 70s, when electricity was cheap,
and there was a drive to use electricity to heat houses. So my 3
bedroom 2 story house (plus basement) has no furnace or ductwork. We
could install a traditional gas furnace but we would lose scarce
living space and installing the ducts from the basement to the top
floor would be complex and expensive.
What I've looked into is "mini split" heat pumps. Some are cooling
only, but many can both cool and heat the house. The split is that
part of the unit is outside the house, and part is inside. You can
have units where you have 2 or more "head" units inside to cover
multiple floors.
So it is electrical heating, but the heat pump is supposed to be much
more efficient than space heaters. The claims are up to 66% more
efficient. The units start pretty inexpensively, around the $2000 mark
for name brands. The install would be mounting the outside unit on a
shelf, and drilling holes in the brick for the pipes leading to the
head units. I haven't priced install yet, but I think for two head
units, I'm probably around the $5-6,000 mark.
Now apparently they loose some efficiency in severe cold (-10F) so you
might to still have space heating on the coldest days. Where you are,
you probably don't need space heating if you have the heat pump.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
They don't just lose "some efficiency" at those temperatures. They aren't
useful at below 30F, or so. Heat pumps usually have resistance (auxiliary)
heat and switch over at around freezing. Heat pumps aren't a good solution if
you have temperatures that cold. Heat pumps work very well here (I have two
heat pumps, a 2.5T and 3.5T unit) but it doesn't get colder than about 15F
here and rarely doesn't make it into the 30s during the day. I'll likely put
a mini-split unit in a room over the garage I'm converting into a workshop. I
would connect it to the upstairs unit (the 2.5T unit) but don't want the air
exchange.
Evan
@John Weiss:
The main trunk lines in such high pressure HVAC systems are
constructed out of sound dampening materials rather than sheet
metal...
They are just as quiet as traditional systems and the insulated 2"
flex duct hose from the trunk line to the room outlet are a lot easier
to
locate in a retrofit job than the typical sheet metal duct work outlet
boots which require open access below the floor to install...
~~ Evan
Dan Musicant
:Dan Musicant wrote:
:> If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it
:> will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE
:> (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax
:> credit of $400.
:
:Sounds like an awful lot of money. Get an estimate from a contractor you call
:and see how it compares before you even consider this. Plus, check with your
:state contractors licensing agency about the contractor's reputation, and google
:their name plus the word complaints,or scam, or crime. When you contact the
:state, make sure you have their state contractor's license #.
I did Google searches as suggested and found nothing negative. In fact
the BBB indicates they are "accredited" and that there are zero
complaints against them in the last 12 months. Doesn't mean their "bid"
isn't high, but my sense that they are legit seems correct. Well, that
they probably do good work.
Still, I'm sure going to get other bids. Also, when this guy calls back
I'm going to ask him to fill in the blanks, stuff like who pays to
repair the holes they make in the walls to get stuff in and out, what
are the exact terms of the financing, who pays for permits, zone
heating...
Dan
Lou
reputation, scads of dissatisfied customers, and still have a clean record
with the BBB.
Contact your state or county consumer affairs bureau.
"Dan Musicant" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:dm07171jvh5t86vv0...@4ax.com...
tra...@optonline.net
Nobody commented on this gem:
" Without bothering to go up into the attic or
have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space
to
the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that,
but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat
rising
up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. "
That alone is enough to cross this company off your list. A real,
honest,
professional company would have looked over the entire house BEFORE
writing any proposal. To just start quoting installing a second
furnace in
an a attic without even looking at it is a sure sign of a shyster.
To size
the systems correctly they also need to know the true size of the
house,
what kind of insulation, window types and numbers, etc.
The Real Bev
> In my experience, the BBB doesn't mean squat. Someone can have a terrible
> reputation, scads of dissatisfied customers, and still have a clean record
> with the BBB.
Last time I checked, a couple of decades ago, BBB seemed to be a
write-only organization. I never tried again.
> Contact your state or county consumer affairs bureau.
--
Cheers,
Bev
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to
spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and
begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
Red Green
"The Tricks Behind Infomercial Get-Rich Pitches"
http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/112910/infomercial-get-rich-pitches-street
"The BBB did initially accredit Dalbey's company in 2003, but revoked
that seal of approval within a year."
So, anyone who had faith on the BBB rating got screwed.
Dan Musicant
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 16:26:35 -0700 (PDT), in alt.home.repair you wrote:
Thank you very much for this post. More than any other it confirms my
suspicions. I was looking at the whole thing through rose colored
glasses.
I might even install my own system (maybe with help). I had a long talk
with a friend over the phone this afternoon. He's installed two heating
systems himself, one in a home he bought, fixed up and sold and the
other in a property he co-owns and rents. He told me to work up
dimensions for my rooms. volumes for each room, a plan, visit Home Depot
and look at their heating systems, possibly look online for used
furnaces, etc.
In any case, I think it would be smart to get several quotes from local
contractors. My friend tells me that with the economy being what it is,
I will likely get some pretty low quotes.
Dan Musicant
told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions:
I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with Pacific
Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that this is a
state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and California Energy
Services, noone else, and that the contract was awarded to CES because
of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years without a complaint.
He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2
furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that
discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011).
PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are
for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He said
there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in my case
it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two years I
paid zero federal taxes.
I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the
inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation, nothing
else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to me. If the
program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500 permit fee.
The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest
with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the
end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells
Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a year
I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be 25-26%. I have
a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before a year's up.
He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my
house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000
BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers
each. He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no
charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust as
required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as
required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it
would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the
center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate
them.
The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know
if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces
are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a
20x30" hole to get them in.
Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or
that they really should check out the house more carefully?
Jeff
Make sure you can keep the humidity low in the crawl space. Someone I
know has a furnace there and had to replace it a couple of times
because it got rusty and quit working.
tra...@optonline.net
> I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I
> told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions:
>
> I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with Pacific
> Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that this is a
> state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and California Energy
> Services, noone else, and that the contract was awarded to CES because
> of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years without a complaint.
>
> He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2
> furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that
> discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011).
You can go online and find the prices that you could buy the
furnaces for. ACwholesalers.com is one site, you can find
others. As an example, you'll find that you can buy a
Rheem gas furnace that's 45K BTU for $1200 including
delivery. That's a 95%, dual stage, variable speed blower,
a top of the line unit.
And that's YOUR cost for buying one. Presumably
a HVAC company can get even better pricing. If you want
AC too, that adds a similar amount. Trane eqpt costs a
bit more than Rheem, but it sure isn't enough more that
they could be giving a true $2K discount on a furnace or
it would be free.
Also, according to ConsumerReports, Rheem actually
got a higher rating than Trane and some of the other
companies. I think overall thought CR said that the
differences were not statistically significant, so I would
not be paying a premium price to get a Trane.
> PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are
> for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He said
> there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in my case
> it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two years I
> paid zero federal taxes.
>
> I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the
> inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation, nothing
> else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to me. If the
> program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500 permit fee.
That sound fishy too. I've never heard of a municipality waving
permit fees because of any special program. But a quick
call to the building department could verify it. It's Berkely so
the fees could be high, but $300 to $500 sounds high to me.
Here in NJ you need 3 permits and the cost is around $200.
>
> The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest
> with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the
> end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells
> Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a year
> I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be 25-26%. I have
> a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before a year's up.
>
> He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my
> house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000
> BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers
> each. He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no
> charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust as
> required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as
> required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it
> would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the
> center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate
> them.
That is where a lot of the total cost is, running the required ducting
for
a new install. The prices you had posted for the complete system,
ie $7500 for one furnace, $13,000 for two, actually sounds reasonable.
>
> The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know
> if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces
> are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a
> 20x30" hole to get them in.
That sounds very low if modifications have to be made to get access
to an attic. Also, what kind of access? Something that leaves a
permanent access thats larger or just a temporary hole cut in the
ceiling and then covered back up? Either way, $200 sounds very
low.
>
> Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or
> that they really should check out the house more carefully?
>
> Dan
>
> Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
As I said before, they guy didn't even go into the attic to look
before quoting the job and proposing to install a furnace
up there. That is shyster. If they do business like that, I
don't want to find out what else they would pull in the
middle of the job.
Dan Musicant
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
I talked at length with a friend of mine who's installed two home
heating systems and his attitude is I should do my homework and figure
out what I need to do and do it myself, with help where required. He
said the information I need is mostly stamped right there on the heater.
He installed one in the house he bought, totally fixed up and sold and
bought a used heater for $500 or so and installed it in a house he's
partners on and rents.
I'm going to look into buying online as you suggest. I'm also going to
get some contractors to come over and figure out systems and get quotes.
I may go for one of those or maybe work a deal where I do some of the
work, especially if cutting access and repairing it is part of the
project. I have most of the tools and some experience.
:
:
:
:
:
:> PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are
This concerns me. I haven't done stuff like that before, running
ducting, installing registers. Would it be possible for me to pressure
test it?
:
:
:
:>
:> The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know
:> if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces
:> are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a
:> 20x30" hole to get them in.
:
:That sounds very low if modifications have to be made to get access
:to an attic. Also, what kind of access? Something that leaves a
:permanent access thats larger or just a temporary hole cut in the
:ceiling and then covered back up? Either way, $200 sounds very
:low.
Yes, I could maybe do that myself. Some carpentry, wallboard afterward.
:
:
:
:>
:> Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or
:> that they really should check out the house more carefully?
:>
:> Dan
:>
:> Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
:
:As I said before, they guy didn't even go into the attic to look
:before quoting the job and proposing to install a furnace
:up there. That is shyster. If they do business like that, I
:don't want to find out what else they would pull in the
:middle of the job.
Yes, that alone has me thinking I have to get some contractors over
here. Next time he calls me (probably in a couple of weeks) I will ask
him for some phone numbers of customers I can call for references. I
have a feeling he won't provide that. However, I think I should call the
utility company and the state, if possible, to ask about the program to
which he says his company is the exclusive access.
tra...@optonline.net
> On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT), "trad...@optonline.net"
Not much of anything is
stamped on a furnace, except the model #, BTU rating, and
efficiency. There are installation instructions availabe and you
can find them online.
Replacing an existing furnace is something a reasonably skilled
DIY person could do. It consists of swapping out the furnace,
reconnecting gas and electric, venting the furnace which
will be via 2" PVC for a high eff furnace, and doing whatever
sheetmetal work is needed to mate up the
existing duct work with the new furnace.
However you have no existing duct system
, nor is it clear if you need one furnace, two furnaces, how many
registers, returns, etc. Doing that duct work is not trivial and
without the right tools and skills I'd say it's beyond a DIY.
Exactly how you would engage with a contractor to have you
do part of it is not clear to me. I'd think most of them would
want no part of that kind of deal because of all the potential
problems.
> He installed one in the house he bought, totally fixed up and sold and
> bought a used heater for $500 or so and installed it in a house he's
> partners on and rents.
Were those new installs that included doing the duct work or
just replacements of the furnace?
There is no pressure testing involved.
I'd be very surprised if the state had a program to assist with the
cost of new furnaces for low income folks and it was only
through one company. Typically the state will provide some of the
funding, but in every case I've heard of it's been open to
all vendors. To do otherwise would be grossly unfair and have
all the other vendors bitching.
Hell Toupee
> Yes, that alone has me thinking I have to get some contractors over
> here. Next time he calls me (probably in a couple of weeks) I will ask
> him for some phone numbers of customers I can call for references. I
> have a feeling he won't provide that. However, I think I should call the
> utility company and the state, if possible, to ask about the program to
> which he says his company is the exclusive access.
A few years ago I got a card in the mail from a local organization
that said it had two programs to provide energy-related repairs and
upgrades to qualified homeowners, and suggested I contact them to
learn all the details. Turned out the programs were gov't funded,
limited to properties that, upon inspection and following an energy
audit, were deemed to be in good condition, yet would benefit from
energy-related improvements. There were additional income/home value
guidelines that had to be met.
Anyhow: the program didn't work with an exclusive contractor. I had to
get three bids, and anyone who wanted the work could bid on it. I
can't imagine a state-funded program getting away with limiting its
work to any particular contractor, because the others would
justifiably cry foul. I think they'd do the same if the local energy
company played favorites, too. So I'd certainly ask the state and
utility about this - and you might ask if there are any (other/legit)
programs that you might qualify for. If this is some sort of scam, you
might still find a program that'll help you out.
In my case, they had two programs available: qualified
homeowners/properties could either get an outright grant of funds for
authorized improvements, or get a no-interest deferred loan that was
fully forgiven after ten years _if_ the homeowner continued to own and
occupy the home for the duration of the loan. If the home was sold
prior to the end of the loan term, you have to pay a pro-rated amount:
90% after one year, 50% after five years, etc. These types of programs
are pretty common across the country, so it can't hurt to call your
city and county and inquire if they have such a program.
Dan Musicant
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
Check. My "friend" is given to rants and hyperbole. He's cool, smart,
talented, painted houses (mostly interiors, I think) for a living until
he made some serious money buying fixing up and selling a house with
pretty damn good timing during the early 2000's housing boom. I have to
take a lot of things he says with a grain of salt.
:
:Replacing an existing furnace is something a reasonably skilled
:DIY person could do. It consists of swapping out the furnace,
:reconnecting gas and electric, venting the furnace which
:will be via 2" PVC for a high eff furnace, and doing whatever
:sheetmetal work is needed to mate up the
:existing duct work with the new furnace.
:
: However you have no existing duct system
:, nor is it clear if you need one furnace, two furnaces, how many
:registers, returns, etc. Doing that duct work is not trivial and
:without the right tools and skills I'd say it's beyond a DIY.
:Exactly how you would engage with a contractor to have you
:do part of it is not clear to me. I'd think most of them would
:want no part of that kind of deal because of all the potential
:problems.
I think I understand. I will probably get at least a handful of bids and
go with one. I was pricing ducting at Home Depot today. Looks to me like
that would cost me there from $400-$800, but I wouldn't even know what
to get, how to install it. I have zero experience in HVAC.
:
:
:
:> He installed one in the house he bought, totally fixed up and sold and
:> bought a used heater for $500 or so and installed it in a house he's
:> partners on and rents.
:
:Were those new installs that included doing the duct work or
:just replacements of the furnace?
The first install was, I think, mostly if not entirely a new install. He
said he rand ducts and installed the registers himself, at least some of
them. This was a conversation we had last night, I don't remember
exactly, but the house was old, just as old as my 101 year old house. I
don't know what heating it had before he installed the furnace.
The furnace in the house he co-owns and rents was an insert furnace,
that I believe went in what had been a fireplace. The installation
probably didn't involve ducting at all. I think they ran a flue up the
chimney (?). He said that he and his partner did it in 2 days.
:
:>
:> I'm going to look into buying online as you suggest. I'm also going to
The guy from California Energy Services did say they'd pressure test the
system.
:
:
:> :
:> :>
I'm going to try to get to the bottom of that. I can call my utility
company and ask them for specifics and maybe call the state and find
out. Thanks for the help!
Dan Musicant
:On 7/7/2011 1:54 PM, Dan Musicant wrote:
:
:> Yes, that alone has me thinking I have to get some contractors over
:> here. Next time he calls me (probably in a couple of weeks) I will ask
:> him for some phone numbers of customers I can call for references. I
:> have a feeling he won't provide that. However, I think I should call the
:> utility company and the state, if possible, to ask about the program to
:> which he says his company is the exclusive access.
:
:A few years ago I got a card in the mail from a local organization
:that said it had two programs to provide energy-related repairs and
:upgrades to qualified homeowners, and suggested I contact them to
:learn all the details. Turned out the programs were gov't funded,
:limited to properties that, upon inspection and following an energy
:audit, were deemed to be in good condition, yet would benefit from
:energy-related improvements. There were additional income/home value
:guidelines that had to be met.
Interestingly, this company and the guy they sent out did not ask me
about my income. Possibly, they already know that I am already qualified
for a cut on my utility bills (based on my income) and I was therefore
pre-screened.
:
:Anyhow: the program didn't work with an exclusive contractor. I had to
:get three bids, and anyone who wanted the work could bid on it. I
:can't imagine a state-funded program getting away with limiting its
:work to any particular contractor, because the others would
:justifiably cry foul. I think they'd do the same if the local energy
:company played favorites, too. So I'd certainly ask the state and
:utility about this - and you might ask if there are any (other/legit)
:programs that you might qualify for. If this is some sort of scam, you
:might still find a program that'll help you out.
Either it's limited to this company or the guy was lieing. I'm going to
make some calls and find out!
:
:In my case, they had two programs available: qualified
:homeowners/properties could either get an outright grant of funds for
:authorized improvements, or get a no-interest deferred loan that was
:fully forgiven after ten years _if_ the homeowner continued to own and
:occupy the home for the duration of the loan. If the home was sold
:prior to the end of the loan term, you have to pay a pro-rated amount:
:90% after one year, 50% after five years, etc. These types of programs
:are pretty common across the country, so it can't hurt to call your
:city and county and inquire if they have such a program.
I'm going to see what I can come up with. About 6-7 years ago I found
out about a program with the city I live in (Berkeley, CA) where for low
income homeowners, I could apply for interest free loans, up to two of
$35,000 each. I qualified and used some of the $70,000 allocated to me
to tear off and replace my roof. It had gotten to the point where it was
imperative, it not looking like the patching with roofing tar that I'd
been doing personally for a few years was going to get me through
another winter! I got several bids and picked one that looked good and
cost effective. That cost about $18,000, and it happened at the end of
2005. I tapped this again around 3-4 years ago when I suddenly needed a
trenchless sewer pipe replacement during which it was revealed that I
needed my water main replaced. Again, I found the company that did the
work.
So, I owe $27,000 right now, interest free until I either sell the house
or turn 90 years old. If I want to use that again I believe I have to
reapply. Not sure it's there for me until I talk to them, which I
haven't done since the sewer work. It is money I have to repay
eventually. Maybe there's something else, though, maybe something
involving the utility or a state program, or maybe county, as you say. I
haven't heard of a county program, but it can't hurt to inquire.
tra...@optonline.net
> :> This concerns me. I haven't done stuff like that before, running
> :> ducting, installing registers. Would it be possible for me to pressure
> :> test it?
> :> :
> :> :
> :
> :There is no pressure testing involved.
> :
> The guy from California Energy Services did say they'd pressure test the
> system.
> :
> :
He may be talking about a "blower door test", which is
done as part of an energy audit to find air leaking into
the house. Basicly they place a fan into a door or
similar opening, seal it up and then use it to create
as slight pressure differential betwen inside
and outside the house.
Then they look for drafts coming into the house around
windows, doors, outlets, etc to identify points that can be
sealed to reduce heating/cooling load.
That kind of audit can be part of meeting the reqts
for the programs where the state or utility kick in
rebates, funding, etc
Dan Musicant
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
Understood. Seems like a good test to do. Maybe my utility company will
do that for me. I have had some weatherizaiton done here but I'm sure
I'll want to look at those issues again once a gas heating system is
installed.
John Weiss
40,000 BTU total sounds quite low from my experience. I just had an
80,000 BTU York (98% efficiency) installed in my house in Seattle. All
my previous houses (around the country) had furnaces of around 100,000
BTU (80% efficiency).
If there is an "exclusive state program," he should be able to refer
you to the appropriate state agency for information and confirmation of
details.
Permit fees are often included in the quote from major installers.
The 25%+ interest for not paying in full within a year is typical. It
is likely that that rate will be charged on the FULL amount, even if
only a small payment remains. Be sure you KNOW all the terms in
advance!
Again, get at least one other quote from a contractor of your choice;
preferably 3. Find out what they recommend in the way of number, size,
and positioning of the furnaces as well as the cost.
tra...@optonline.net
Good point.
I think you may be right. I would have thought 40,000 would be
enough for the bay area. But here's an online rough estimator
that says for 2,000 sq ft, you need 58,0000 OUTPUT btu. Assuming
95% eff, he'd need 61,000 btus.
Of course, this is just a rough estimate calculator, but I'd trust
it more than the shyster he's dealing with. Given the more
temperate climate, I'd also go with a two stage if possible so
that it can fire on low most days.
>
> If there is an "exclusive state program," he should be able to refer
> you to the appropriate state agency for information and confirmation of
> details.
>
> Permit fees are often included in the quote from major installers.
>
> The 25%+ interest for not paying in full within a year is typical. It
> is likely that that rate will be charged on the FULL amount, even if
> only a small payment remains. Be sure you KNOW all the terms in
> advance!
>
> Again, get at least one other quote from a contractor of your choice;
> preferably 3. Find out what they recommend in the way of number, size,
> and positioning of the furnaces as well as the cost.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
John Weiss
>> 40,000 BTU total sounds quite low from my experience. �I just had an
>> 80,000 BTU York (98% efficiency) installed in my house in Seattle.
>> �All my previous houses (around the country) had furnaces of around
>> 100,000 BTU (80% efficiency).
>
> Good point.
> I think you may be right. I would have thought 40,000 would be
> enough for the bay area. But here's an online rough estimator
> that says for 2,000 sq ft, you need 58,0000 OUTPUT btu. Assuming
> 95% eff, he'd need 61,000 btus.
>
> Of course, this is just a rough estimate calculator, but I'd trust
> it more than the shyster he's dealing with. Given the more
> temperate climate, I'd also go with a two stage if possible so
> that it can fire on low most days.
I don't know that there are any gas-fired furnaces at the 95%+
efficiency rating that are not multi-stage. The one in my old house
was 3-stage, and my new one has a 3-stage fan with a true variable
burner.