Re: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign Workers!
wis...@yahoo.com
obamao.sux....@gmail.com wrote:
>With the federal government reporting another giant loss of jobs for
>November, isn't it time to stop the massive importation of foreign
>workers?
>
>http://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/december-5-2008/533000-jobs-lost-nov-but-feds-imported-another-140000-foreign-workers
Does anyone still support this frigging government"
ted
John Galt
The article, quite unfortunately, says nothing about what the imported
workers do. For example, there is a huge mismatch in the number of RN
jobs in this country vs the number of RNs available to fill them. (It
also uses the term "the feds imported" when in fact the "feds" don't
import anybody; they simply provide authorization for other employers to
recruit them.)
You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to patients.
Or teaching math, for that matter. Gene Green (D-Houston) has sponsored
a bill to waive the immigrant worker visa filing fees for elementary and
secondary schoools; Rep. Green is a pro-labor Democrat. What's
responsible for that dissonance?
Well, something like 40% of Texas math teachers and 20% of science
teachers aren't certified to teach those subjects -- they do so under
temporary certification programs which give them a year or two to make
up their educational deficiency, but in fact the majority of those
teaching under temp certificates have neither the ability nor the
interest to make up that deficiency, preferring to simply wait until a
position in their field comes available. But, the larger problem is that
there simply aren't enough math certified teachers to fill the jobs.
The school districts wish to solve that problem by importing math
teachers. (Many campuses already go WITHOUT a school nurse, btw, because
of the aforementioned shortage.)
One cannot assume that the only reason for an immigrant work visa filing
is wage.
JG
HeyBub
>
> Or teaching math, for that matter. Gene Green (D-Houston) has
> sponsored a bill to waive the immigrant worker visa filing fees for
> elementary
> and secondary schoools; Rep. Green is a pro-labor Democrat. What's
> responsible for that dissonance?
>
> Well, something like 40% of Texas math teachers and 20% of science
> teachers aren't certified to teach those subjects -- they do so under
> temporary certification programs which give them a year or two to make
> up their educational deficiency, but in fact the majority of those
> teaching under temp certificates have neither the ability nor the
> interest to make up that deficiency, preferring to simply wait until a
> position in their field comes available. But, the larger problem is
> that there simply aren't enough math certified teachers to fill the
> jobs.
> The school districts wish to solve that problem by importing math
> teachers. (Many campuses already go WITHOUT a school nurse, btw,
> because of the aforementioned shortage.)
>
> One cannot assume that the only reason for an immigrant work visa
> filing is wage.
You're right. That's not the only reason. The following are NOT qualified to
teach in the public schools of Texas.
* All living Nobel Laureates
* All living winners of the Pulitzer, Hugo, or Edgar prizes. Most winners of
the Newberry.
* Almost all members of Congress and all living ex-presidents.
* Almost all members of the federal judiciary.
* Virtually all retired physicians, nurses, and engineers.
Do you have any doubt that a retired civil engineer couldn't teach plane
geometry off the top of this head, or that a retired chemical engineer
couldn't do the same thing for high school chemistry?
No, the reason these people are unqualified by law to teach in the public
schools is that they lack the requisite education courses! A retired PhD has
at least 18 years experience as a student and probably two or three years
teaching undergraduate courses - much more experience than your typical
beginning public school teacher!
Bah!
The inmates are in charge of the asylum.
On the plus side, a degree in education does tend to weed out the
unmotivated...
John Galt
There's no question that they could, and if that was the only reason for
needing training in pedagogy, preventing them from doing so is indeed
silly. However, that's not the entire story. There is actual skill
involved in managing 30 kids in order to achieve an academic objective,
and that skill is almost always assumed to be simplistic by those who
have never been in a classroom situation. It's not.
But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be grading
papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
Our current unemployment problem is not with the professional groups you
mention. They either have jobs or are enjoying comfortable retirements
from which they are unlikely to want to pull themselves out of bed at
6AM each day. Our current unemployment problem are predominately people
who are NOT qualified by educational background to teach in the schools.
The number of people with sufficient education to teach that are without
work isn't large enough to address the problem.
>
> No, the reason these people are unqualified by law to teach in the public
> schools is that they lack the requisite education courses! A retired PhD has
> at least 18 years experience as a student and probably two or three years
> teaching undergraduate courses - much more experience than your typical
> beginning public school teacher!
Yes, but no experience in teaching and motivating students who don't
want to be in the classroom. And therein lies the reason that we do have
teacher training. I'd agree with you that there is some unnecessary
bureaucracy there, but it's not ALL unnecessary.
JG
clams_casino
>
>
> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be grading
> papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just out of
college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k plus very generous
benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
Kurt Ullman
John Galt <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to patients.
>
> Or teaching math, for that matter. Gene Green (D-Houston) has sponsored
> a bill to waive the immigrant worker visa filing fees for elementary and
> secondary schoools; Rep. Green is a pro-labor Democrat. What's
> responsible for that dissonance?
If I were a cynic, I would think that even imported teachers will
have to join the teacher's union. So, every teaching job that goes
unfilled, in addition to hurting the student, hurts the financial status
of the teacher's union. Good thing I am not a cynic (grin).
Kurt Ullman
"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> You're right. That's not the only reason. The following are NOT qualified to
> teach in the public schools of Texas.
> * Almost all members of Congress and all living ex-presidents.
Sounds a like you think this is a bad thing...
John Galt
Heh.
Well, that's certainly the case in the north. In the right to work
states, joining a union is entirely up to the teacher, and on teacher's
salaries, even few bucks from each paycheck for union dues prevents a
lot of participation.
JG
Caesar Romano
wrote Re Re: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign
Workers!:
>The article, quite unfortunately, says nothing about what the imported
>workers do. For example, there is a huge mismatch in the number of RN
>jobs in this country vs the number of RNs available to fill them. (It
>also uses the term "the feds imported" when in fact the "feds" don't
>import anybody; they simply provide authorization for other employers to
>recruit them.)
I worked for 40-years as an engineer before I retired. The H-1B
"highly trained" workers are not filling a gap opened by a lack of
trained American workers.
They are filling a gap created by highly trained American workers who
are (or were) reluctant to work for the slave-wages offered the H-1Bs.
Here's how it used to work in my field:
A company like Bechtel gets a big project and they need several
hundred engineers. The know they can get all the American engineers
they need for $50/hour. They advertise the openings for $30/hour and
get very few takers. They then offer to sponsor H-1B foreigners
because they "...can't get enough engineers.." They get a bunch of
Pakistani, Chinese and Indian engineers who are quite qualified, speak
English, and are willing to work for 35% or 40% less to be able to
stay in the U.S.
This goes on for 10 or 15 years, and the next generation of college
student decides that engineering isn't for them. They'll study law or
banking or whatever. The engineering schools need students to stay in
business, so they actively recruit foreign students such as
Pakistanis, Indians, and Chinese. These foreign students come here to
study on a student visa. When they graduate they must leave the
country... Unless they get H1-B jobs. Then they can stay.
It's probably a very similar scenario in the computer and medical
technology fields.
terry
> >With the federal government reporting another giant loss of jobs for
> >November, isn't it time to stop the massive importation of foreign
> >workers?
>
>
> Does anyone still support this frigging government"
>
> ted
years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But everyone should stop 'dissing' foreign workers, immigration and
all the other improbable, or at least secondary, causes of the slow
down of the North American economy and get back to basics.
1) You can't run an economy on credit (any more than an individual or
family can do so!)
2) It's a world economy. Otherwise just build a wall around the USA
and let nothing in or out. Stay home and play with your (imported?)
marbles.
3) To play a role within the world economy you can't just be a
consumer. You have to provide something of value that can be traded.
4) You have to have respect for your actions from both your friends
and potential enemies. Otherwise you will lose your friends. Also take
advice from your friends.
Who was it said 'No man is an island'; nor a country?
5) Not going to make much progress while acting to get half the world
to hate you!
This: Copied from another news group!
Toyota opened another plant in North America the other day. It will
employ North Americans who will be paid North American wages and who
will spend their money in North America and who will pay North
American taxes and send their children to North American schools. The
jobs provided will replace a few of the auto manufacturing jobs lost
by 'The big 3' close-downs.
Gee whiz; Toyota must be making cars that people want to buy??????
Some people said this years ago: "If GM wants to survive why don't
they make Toyotas?"
Everyone we know, including a a two doctor family who own two now
slightly aging Corollas are completely satisfied. The cars are fairly
cheap to buy in first instance, and for two medical people often 'on
call', extremely reliable. Also economical to run and maintain! The
two cars are constantly on the go in a family of six, and have
mileages of 120,000 and 150.000 miles respectively.
A Modern Parable.
A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors)
decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams
practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the
race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile. The Americans, very
discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the
crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was
formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person
steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people
rowing. Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management
hired
a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a
second
opinion.
They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat,
while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent
another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure
was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering
superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2
people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was
called
the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and
free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new
paddles,
canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and
bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition'
and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale boosting
programs and teamwork posters.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles. Humiliated, the American
management laid-off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold
all the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new
equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as
bonuses.
The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable
to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for
unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next
year's racing team was out-sourced to India.
Sadly, the End.
Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty
years moving all its factories out of the US , claiming they can't
make money paying American wages.
TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen
plants inside the US. The last quarter's results: TOYOTA makes 4
billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.
Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting
bonuses...
and now wants the Government to 'bail them out'.
IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY
John Galt
> On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 06:34:59 -0600, John Galt <kad...@gmail.com>
> wrote Re Re: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign
> Workers!:
>
>> The article, quite unfortunately, says nothing about what the imported
>> workers do. For example, there is a huge mismatch in the number of RN
>> jobs in this country vs the number of RNs available to fill them. (It
>> also uses the term "the feds imported" when in fact the "feds" don't
>> import anybody; they simply provide authorization for other employers to
>> recruit them.)
>
> I worked for 40-years as an engineer before I retired. The H-1B
> "highly trained" workers are not filling a gap opened by a lack of
> trained American workers.
In education and allied health, it most certainly is. I don't know about
the engineering profession.
>
> They are filling a gap created by highly trained American workers who
> are (or were) reluctant to work for the slave-wages offered the H-1Bs.
Again, in your field, that may be the case.
>
> Here's how it used to work in my field:
>
> A company like Bechtel gets a big project and they need several
> hundred engineers. The know they can get all the American engineers
> they need for $50/hour. They advertise the openings for $30/hour and
> get very few takers. They then offer to sponsor H-1B foreigners
> because they "...can't get enough engineers.." They get a bunch of
> Pakistani, Chinese and Indian engineers who are quite qualified, speak
> English, and are willing to work for 35% or 40% less to be able to
> stay in the U.S.
>
> This goes on for 10 or 15 years, and the next generation of college
> student decides that engineering isn't for them. They'll study law or
> banking or whatever. The engineering schools need students to stay in
> business, so they actively recruit foreign students such as
> Pakistanis, Indians, and Chinese. These foreign students come here to
> study on a student visa. When they graduate they must leave the
> country... Unless they get H1-B jobs. Then they can stay.
>
> It's probably a very similar scenario in the computer and medical
> technology fields.
Not as far as I can tell. Students don't come from overseas to go to
nursing school. They take their training there, and then are actively
recruited in those areas where the shortages exist, and again as far as
I am aware, are paid the same as any other worker.
JG
HeyBub
>>
>> Do you have any doubt that a retired civil engineer couldn't teach
>> plane geometry off the top of this head, or that a retired chemical
>> engineer couldn't do the same thing for high school chemistry?
>
> There's no question that they could, and if that was the only reason
> for needing training in pedagogy, preventing them from doing so is
> indeed silly. However, that's not the entire story. There is actual
> skill involved in managing 30 kids in order to achieve an academic
> objective, and that skill is almost always assumed to be simplistic
> by those who have never been in a classroom situation. It's not.
You make a good point but a person who is intimately familiar with the
subject can, I think, pass on his passion to the class. Furthermore, science
and math classes self-select the motivated student. Mopes, squints, dobads,
goblins, cut-purses, knuckle-draggers, and other assorted detritus don't
sign up for high school physics. I suggest that for advanced math, physics,
chemistry, and even biology, the kids in the class WANT to be there, they
WANT to learn. To inflict them with a biology teacher who believes humans
and dinosaurs were contemporaries is the greater crime.* To subject a
third-semester algebra student to the LAW that the sum of two squares [ a^2
+ b^2 ] cannot be factored is obscene.
>
> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be grading
> papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
Lots of reasons. One being the retired engineer's wife. In many cases, it
could be a part-time job. Or he might work for no pay at all. Maybe he just
wants to be around youngsters. Maybe he's a wannabe pedophile. Maybe he's
insane. Whatever the reason, good or bad, why let some silliness stand in
the way?
>
> Our current unemployment problem is not with the professional groups
> you mention. They either have jobs or are enjoying comfortable
> retirements from which they are unlikely to want to pull themselves
> out of bed at 6AM each day. Our current unemployment problem are
> predominately people who are NOT qualified by educational background
> to teach in the schools. The number of people with sufficient
> education to teach that are without work isn't large enough to
> address the problem.
In my view, if there's ONE qualified instructor that's prevented from
teaching by these rules, that's one too many.
>
> Yes, but no experience in teaching and motivating students who don't
> want to be in the classroom. And therein lies the reason that we do
> have teacher training. I'd agree with you that there is some
> unnecessary bureaucracy there, but it's not ALL unnecessary.
I agree that not ALL regulations or bureaucracy is unnecessary - just those
rules that get in the way of a gifted instructor and a class of students
thirsting for knowledge.
>
It's hard to argue a negative but presumably we have classrooms staffed,
right now, 100%, by those who've had training in motivating reluctant
pupils. We also have a horrendous drop-out rate. Is this cause-and-effect or
is it the prevention of a much worse case?
--------
* 40% of Texas high school biology teachers believe humans hunted dinosaurs.
hp...@lycos.com
> >With the federal government reporting another giant loss of jobs for
> >November, isn't it time to stop the massive importation of foreign
> >workers?
>
>
> Does anyone still support this frigging government"
>
> ted
By the way, the 140,00 foreign workers does not include the horde of
low-IQ welfare leeching
illegal immigrants. Deport those 15 million (conservative estimate)
and an economic boom would
sweep this nation.
mitch
clams_casino
>By the way, the 140,00 foreign workers does not include the horde of
>low-IQ welfare leeching
>illegal immigrants. Deport those 15 million (conservative estimate)
>and an economic boom would
>sweep this nation.
>
>mitch
>
>
What do you propose doing with the 700,000 residents of Alaska who all
get their thousands of dollar welfare checks by taxing oil company
profits and seeking $MM of handouts from the federal coffer?
John Galt
> John Galt wrote:
>>> Do you have any doubt that a retired civil engineer couldn't teach
>>> plane geometry off the top of this head, or that a retired chemical
>>> engineer couldn't do the same thing for high school chemistry?
>> There's no question that they could, and if that was the only reason
>> for needing training in pedagogy, preventing them from doing so is
>> indeed silly. However, that's not the entire story. There is actual
>> skill involved in managing 30 kids in order to achieve an academic
>> objective, and that skill is almost always assumed to be simplistic
>> by those who have never been in a classroom situation. It's not.
>
> You make a good point but a person who is intimately familiar with the
> subject can, I think, pass on his passion to the class. Furthermore, science
> and math classes self-select the motivated student. Mopes, squints, dobads,
> goblins, cut-purses, knuckle-draggers, and other assorted detritus don't
> sign up for high school physics.
You're assuming high school upper level. Very few, if any, secondary
teachers have entire courseloads of advanced elective classes. If you
want to address the teacher shortfall, you have to assume that the
classrooms that are in need of certified teachers are 7th and 8th grade
math. Your passion for the subject bounces off. You need classroom
management skills, and if you're good at that, MAYBE the passion can be
a positive.
I suggest that for advanced math, physics,
> chemistry, and even biology, the kids in the class WANT to be there, they
> WANT to learn. To inflict them with a biology teacher who believes humans
> and dinosaurs were contemporaries is the greater crime.* To subject a
> third-semester algebra student to the LAW that the sum of two squares [ a^2
> + b^2 ] cannot be factored is obscene.
>
>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be grading
>> papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>
> Lots of reasons. One being the retired engineer's wife. In many cases, it
> could be a part-time job. Or he might work for no pay at all. Maybe he just
> wants to be around youngsters. Maybe he's a wannabe pedophile. Maybe he's
> insane. Whatever the reason, good or bad, why let some silliness stand in
> the way?
No reason. Problem is that experience shows that without preparation,
they go running for the exits after they see the dirty side of the job.
To go back to my example (Texas), most districts run alternative
certification programs for professional hires to get around all the
"silliness." It costs about $500 for tick tack stuff (licensing fees,
background checks, fingerprinting, what have you) and then $4,000 which
is deducted on a monthly basis during the first year of employment.
That's about as easy as it can be made without having to force the
district to eat the cost of the program. With all that, you still have a
huge need for teachers in certain areas.
>
>> Our current unemployment problem is not with the professional groups
>> you mention. They either have jobs or are enjoying comfortable
>> retirements from which they are unlikely to want to pull themselves
>> out of bed at 6AM each day. Our current unemployment problem are
>> predominately people who are NOT qualified by educational background
>> to teach in the schools. The number of people with sufficient
>> education to teach that are without work isn't large enough to
>> address the problem.
>
> In my view, if there's ONE qualified instructor that's prevented from
> teaching by these rules, that's one too many.
See above. I can't speak to what goes on in other states (states with
strong teachers unions hate these alternative certification programs)
but having a workable alt cert program hasn't helped the shortfalls in
Texas.
>
>> Yes, but no experience in teaching and motivating students who don't
>> want to be in the classroom. And therein lies the reason that we do
>> have teacher training. I'd agree with you that there is some
>> unnecessary bureaucracy there, but it's not ALL unnecessary.
>
> I agree that not ALL regulations or bureaucracy is unnecessary - just those
> rules that get in the way of a gifted instructor and a class of students
> thirsting for knowledge.
>
>
> It's hard to argue a negative but presumably we have classrooms staffed,
> right now, 100%, by those who've had training in motivating reluctant
> pupils. We also have a horrendous drop-out rate. Is this cause-and-effect or
> is it the prevention of a much worse case?
Prevention of a worse case. There's a number of situations which have
contributed to the motivation and drop-out problems. Off the top of my head:
1) The movement, for $$$ reasons, from K-8 to K-5 and 6-8 campuses of
massive (and unmanageable) size.
2) The defunding of industrial arts programs (e.g., non-collegiate track
education) at the secondary levels.
3) The underfunding of behavioral intervention programs at the secondary
level.
4) Permitting unmanageable (35+) class sizes at the secondary levels in
nonelective classes.
5) The termination of performance based "tracking" (gifted/talented
tracking programs still exist, but God Help You if you're an highly
motivated average IQ kid in the 7th grade.)
Make me king for a day and let me fix one, and I'd fix (2). The vast
majority of disruptive students are disruptive because they simply
shouldn't be taking the classes they're told to take. We educate all
students as if they're going to Yale, so not only do kids who can't do
college prep work fail, they get pissed off about it, act out, and take
a bunch of other kids down with them. It's stupid, stupid, stupid.
>
> --------
> * 40% of Texas high school biology teachers believe humans hunted dinosaurs.
I don't see this as a problem, because teachers (understanding that
there are always exceptions on both sides of such debates) teach what
they're told to teach (or, they teach what's needed for the state exam,
if you prefer).
JG
RickH
> >With the federal government reporting another giant loss of jobs for
> >November, isn't it time to stop the massive importation of foreign
> >workers?
>
>
> Does anyone still support this frigging government"
>
> ted
Computer programing also used to be a reliable career field, now I
would never recommend that any student in America go into IT or
programming in general. Those jobs are going to India faster than
ever. 95% of what I do at work these days is spec out things that
someone in India engineers and codes, then sends back to us. Its a
pretty sad state of affairs in a field that only 3 or 4 years ago
guaranteed a 6 figure salary in a few short years.
KLS
>By the way, the 140,00 foreign workers does not include the horde of
>low-IQ welfare leeching
>illegal immigrants. Deport those 15 million (conservative estimate)
>and an economic boom would
>sweep this nation.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing all the white legal citizens pick
up the migrant worker agricultural jobs in New York State, 2nd largest
agricultural producer in the US. Will we be seeing you out in the
apple orchards in the Finger Lakes soon?
Lubow
> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be grading papers
> in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>
Thirty K per year? On which planet is that? Around these parts teachers with
tenure are good for $90-120K with an incomparable health plan. And our
superintendent who manages a school district (2150 students) that is half the
size of a Brooklyn high school gets a quarter million bucks plus a retirement
package that rivals that of Bob Rubin's. And that does not even include his
sick leave that is convertible into cash when he retires. Even Bob Rubin
doesn't get that.
Hanging on the wall to my right is the receipt for my school taxes in the amount
of $11,767.42 and next month I will welcome into our home the tax bill to help
pay the highest paid cops on earth, but that's another story.
Sometimes the Cold Spring Harbor SD has a career day where I and some other
techies talk to high school kids. Last spring, the moderator was the high
school's chemistry teacher. After the chat with students the chem teacher told
me she used to teach at Nassau County Community College but nearly doubled her
money by taking a couple of U of Phoenix ed courses on the internet and getting
a job teaching HS kids. Apparently, her PhD did not interest the school board
as much as her credentials from the University of Phoenix (oh gosh!). However,
as per the union contract, the PhD got her a very sizeable increment and an
instant career path to department head when and if the position opens.
Nate Nagel
>>
>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be grading
>> papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>
>
> Thirty K per year? On which planet is that? Around these parts
> teachers with tenure are good for $90-120K with an incomparable health
> plan.
then you're definitely an outlier.
http://www.teacher-world.com/statespages/Virginia.html
average salary of $35K? you'd have to add another zero to that to get
me to put up with all the BS. Plus, I *live* in Virginia - I couldn't
afford a place to live on $35K/year, unless we're talking just a rented
room.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Lubow
> I worked for 40-years as an engineer before I retired. The H-1B
> "highly trained" workers are not filling a gap opened by a lack of
> trained American workers.
>
> They are filling a gap created by highly trained American workers who
> are (or were) reluctant to work for the slave-wages offered the H-1Bs.
>
In 1999 US News and World Report had an issue dedicated to this problem. There
is no shortage, nor has there ever been a shortage, in US engineers. The
"shortage," concluded US News was in engineers earning $19K (this was in 1999).
In the same issue was a discussion of the "half life" of American techies. Half
of all graduates of US engineering schools were out of the engineering business
within ten years of graduation. In computer science, the half life was five
years. I have no idea of the current half lives but 50% of the 1999 figures is
not unreasonable
And that's the focus I bring when the alumni association asks me to speak to
graduating engineers at CCNY. In short, an engineering or computer degree does
not obligate one to be those fields. One of the other speakers moved from
engineering into law specializing in construction claims. One guy in chemical
engineering started a photo finishing business. Another in the general
technology program refurbished burned-out buildings in the South Bronx.
Caesar Romano
wrote Re Re: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign
Workers!:
>In the same issue was a discussion of the "half life" of American techies. Half
>of all graduates of US engineering schools were out of the engineering business
>within ten years of graduation. In computer science, the half life was five
>years. I have no idea of the current half lives but 50% of the 1999 figures is
>not unreasonable
>
>And that's the focus I bring when the alumni association asks me to speak to
>graduating engineers at CCNY. In short, an engineering or computer degree does
>not obligate one to be those fields. One of the other speakers moved from
>engineering into law specializing in construction claims. One guy in chemical
>engineering started a photo finishing business. Another in the general
>technology program refurbished burned-out buildings in the South Bronx.
Doesn't say much for the prospects of American tech careers. If I had
been smarter I would have been one of those who left after 10-years
instead of hanging in for 40 (well, 37 actually) years.
HeyBub
>
> Make me king for a day and let me fix one, and I'd fix (2). The vast
> majority of disruptive students are disruptive because they simply
> shouldn't be taking the classes they're told to take. We educate all
> students as if they're going to Yale, so not only do kids who can't do
> college prep work fail, they get pissed off about it, act out, and
> take a bunch of other kids down with them. It's stupid, stupid, stupid.
>
Old what's-his-name, used to be chancellor at Rice University, was made head
of the Boston Public School system. He was asked, if he could do anything
(king-for-a-day) to improve the public school system, what would it be?
"Abolish colleges of education" was his reply.
HeyBub
>
> Hanging on the wall to my right is the receipt for my school taxes in
> the amount of $11,767.42 and next month I will welcome into our home
> the tax bill to help pay the highest paid cops on earth, but that's
> another story.
My school taxes were $2,100. I've got a 6br, 4bath, 4-car garage, 3100 sq ft
home. Yours may be bigger or better. 'Course you live on Long Island and I
live in Houston.
Lubow
> Doesn't say much for the prospects of American tech careers. If I had
> been smarter I would have been one of those who left after 10-years
> instead of hanging in for 40 (well, 37 actually) years.
Are you a PE?
John Galt
>>
>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be grading
>> papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>
>
> Thirty K per year? On which planet is that?
Yours. The average teaching starting salary in the US is @ 32K. Look at
the NEA website -- one of the things they are pushing for is a national
minimum starting salary of 40K.
Around these parts
> teachers with tenure are good for $90-120K with an incomparable health
> plan.
Good. Unfortunately, even a retired nuclear physicist with a Nobel goes
in as a first year teacher.
JG
John Galt
I'd be good with that. In Canada, if you want to be a teacher, finish
your normal course of study, then go an extra year of grad school. Your
grad school is 5 courses of pedagogy and a 1/2 year of student teaching.
That's plenty. In the states, you major in ed, you take at least 15
sections of ed courses. Way too much.
JG
>
>
m...@privacy.net
>Computer programing also used to be a reliable career field, now I
>would never recommend that any student in America go into IT or
>programming in general. Those jobs are going to India faster than
>ever. 95% of what I do at work these days is spec out things that
>someone in India engineers and codes, then sends back to us. Its a
>pretty sad state of affairs in a field that only 3 or 4 years ago
>guaranteed a 6 figure salary in a few short years.
Agree
But WHAT IS a good thing to study in college now days
that has demand?
Lawyerkill
Bill Reid
Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net> wrote in message news:ghf07...@news7.newsguy.com...
> Lubow wrote:
> >>
> >> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be grading
> >> papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
> >>
> > Thirty K per year? On which planet is that? Around these parts
> > teachers with tenure are good for $90-120K with an incomparable health
> > plan.
>
> then you're definitely an outlier.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
No, he's an out-and-out LIAR. You've just been "Lubowed", or really,
"Tenenbaumed".
The person who posted that is named Michael Tenenbaum who apparently
has some fantasy that he lives in Lloyd Harbor NY, a very high-income area,
but he really lives in Plainview NY, a not-so-high income area several miles
away.
> http://www.teacher-world.com/statespages/Virginia.html
Look, this freak Michael Tenenbaum likes to go around and pick up names
and addresses from the local phone books and/or the Internet, and then weave
them into this entire looney autobiography that he shares for the collective
amusement of the last intelligent person on Usenet. In this case, it looks
like he decided to look up the Lloyd Harbor school district stats for
his latest looney lying post here:
http://www.longislandschools.com/districts/cold-spring-harbor-school-district.html
The stats are a little different for the Plainview-Old Bethpage school district,
though average teacher salary appears to be a few $thousand higher (hazard
pay?):
http://www.longislandschools.com/districts/plainview-old-bethpage-school-district.html
> average salary of $35K? you'd have to add another zero to that to get
> me to put up with all the BS.
Ah, don't worry about it, it's Usenet, everybody can pretend to be anybody
they want, so who cares about being able to afford rent...must say I loved the
little "autobiographical" details "Lubow" posted about his fantasy school district,
chatting with the "chem teacher", his super-high "tax bill" on the wall...as
Spock would have said, "Fascinating!"
---
William Ernest Reid
Post count: 1365
patmp...@gmail.com
> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:20:24 -0800 (PST),
> > obamao.sux.donki.dix...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> With the federal government reporting another giant loss of jobs for
> >> November, isn't it time to stop the massive importation of foreign
> >> workers?
>
> >>http://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/december-5-2008/5330...
>
> > Does anyone still support this frigging government"
>
> > ted
>
> workers do. For example, there is a huge mismatch in the number of RN
> jobs in this country vs the number of RNs available to fill them. (It
> also uses the term "the feds imported" when in fact the "feds" don't
> import anybody; they simply provide authorization for other employers to
> recruit them.)
>
> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to patients.
According to a friend in the health care business, the reason they
can't get enough health care workers is that the wages are too low.
Think $8 hour. Instead workers are being imported from overseas,
particularly the Philippines, and they may not provide good care.
BobR
>
> - Show quoted text -
Low wages and burnout are two of the biggest reasons. Another reason
is that healthcare workers are in one of the most thankless
professions. A single mistake can ruin a lifelong career that took
years and a lot of money to qualify for.
John Galt
I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is about 50K
- 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are regional,
and your part of the country may differ. But down here, they are *not*
being brought to save money -- they're being brought because there's not
enough coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.
JG
Smitty Two
KLS <xym...@suds.com> wrote:
I grew up in Wisconsin, in a small farm community. We weren't farmers
but many of our friends were. No hispanics, no blacks, no asians in the
area. No immigrants at all, legal or illegal. Guess what? The crops got
harvested. I worked seasonally detassling corn to make a few bucks as a
teenager.
When I was 21, and again when I was 22, I took the freight trains with
friends out to Washington State for the apple harvest. We worked for six
or eight weeks, picking apples. There were no Mexicans doing it back
then, just born-in-America caucasians. (The guy who drove the tractor
was black, though.)
We got paid $8 per bin. A bin holds roughly 2500 apples. My first
ten-hour day, I picked almost one bin. After a month of practice, I was
up to 3 - 4 bins per day. We came home with several hundred dollars in
our pockets, and glad of it.
I have only one thing to say to those who believe the crops would rot in
the fields without illegal aliens on the job -- "bullshit."
Michael Coburn
> HeyBub wrote:
>> John Galt wrote:
>>> Or teaching math, for that matter. Gene Green (D-Houston) has
>>> sponsored a bill to waive the immigrant worker visa filing fees for
>>> elementary
>>> and secondary schoools; Rep. Green is a pro-labor Democrat. What's
>>> responsible for that dissonance?
>>>
>>> Well, something like 40% of Texas math teachers and 20% of science
>>> teachers aren't certified to teach those subjects -- they do so under
>>> temporary certification programs which give them a year or two to make
>>> up their educational deficiency, but in fact the majority of those
>>> teaching under temp certificates have neither the ability nor the
>>> interest to make up that deficiency, preferring to simply wait until a
>>> position in their field comes available. But, the larger problem is
>>> that there simply aren't enough math certified teachers to fill the
>>> jobs.
>>> The school districts wish to solve that problem by importing math
>>> teachers. (Many campuses already go WITHOUT a school nurse, btw,
>>> because of the aforementioned shortage.)
>>>
>>> One cannot assume that the only reason for an immigrant work visa
>>> filing is wage.
>>
>> You're right. That's not the only reason. The following are NOT
>> qualified to teach in the public schools of Texas.
>>
>> * All living Nobel Laureates
>> * All living winners of the Pulitzer, Hugo, or Edgar prizes. Most
>> winners of the Newberry.
>> * Almost all members of Congress and all living ex-presidents. * Almost
>> all members of the federal judiciary. * Virtually all retired
>> physicians, nurses, and engineers.
>>
>> Do you have any doubt that a retired civil engineer couldn't teach
>> plane geometry off the top of this head, or that a retired chemical
>> engineer couldn't do the same thing for high school chemistry?
>
> There's no question that they could, and if that was the only reason for
> needing training in pedagogy, preventing them from doing so is indeed
> silly. However, that's not the entire story. There is actual skill
> involved in managing 30 kids in order to achieve an academic objective,
> and that skill is almost always assumed to be simplistic by those who
> have never been in a classroom situation. It's not.
>
> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be grading
> papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
Perhaps we have unraveled the reason for the shortage!!!!!!!!
> Our current unemployment problem is not with the professional groups you
> mention. They either have jobs or are enjoying comfortable retirements
> from which they are unlikely to want to pull themselves out of bed at
> 6AM each day. Our current unemployment problem are predominately people
> who are NOT qualified by educational background to teach in the schools.
> The number of people with sufficient education to teach that are without
> work isn't large enough to address the problem.
If the role of "teacher" paid better and commanded more respect we would
not have a shortage.
>>
>> No, the reason these people are unqualified by law to teach in the
>> public schools is that they lack the requisite education courses! A
>> retired PhD has at least 18 years experience as a student and probably
>> two or three years teaching undergraduate courses - much more
>> experience than your typical beginning public school teacher!
>
> Yes, but no experience in teaching and motivating students who don't
> want to be in the classroom. And therein lies the reason that we do have
> teacher training. I'd agree with you that there is some unnecessary
> bureaucracy there, but it's not ALL unnecessary.
>
> JG
>
>
>
>> Bah!
>>
>> The inmates are in charge of the asylum.
>>
>> On the plus side, a degree in education does tend to weed out the
>> unmotivated...
>>
>>
patmp...@gmail.com
Note that I carefully wrote "health care worker" not RN. My friend
didn't have any fancy credentials. He was from Chevy Chase, Maryland.
Kurt Ullman
John Galt <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is about 50K
> - 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are regional,
> and your part of the country may differ. But down here, they are *not*
> being brought to save money -- they're being brought because there's not
> enough coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.
>
> JG
The nursing shortage probably isn't at that end. Studies have
consistently shown that between 15% and 20% of RNs under 65 are no
longer in nursing. You get even half of those back and you are in good
shape. Even at the height of my youthful powers, I couldn't take more
than 3 years at a time before I had to get out at least for awhile.
harry
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:20:24 -0800 (PST),
>
> obamao.sux.donki.dix...@gmail.com wrote:
> >With the federal government reporting another giant loss of jobs for
> >November, isn't it time to stop the massive importation of foreign
> >workers?
>
> >http://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/december-5-2008/5330...
>
> Does anyone still support this frigging government"
>
> ted
>
>
Hello ted,
If youwill go to Hal Turner's site at www.halturnershow.blogspot.com
youwill find a most interesting answer to your question.
Truly
Truth will set you free John 8:32
Must Reads---->
http://www.judicial-inc.biz
http://www.jewwatch.com
Good Read:
www.tinyurl.com/lbgov
harry
> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:20:24 -0800 (PST),
> > obamao.sux.donki.dix...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> With the federal government reporting another giant loss of jobs for
> >> November, isn't it time to stop the massive importation of foreign
> >> workers?
>
> >>http://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/december-5-2008/5330...
>
> > Does anyone still support this frigging government"
>
> > ted
>
> workers do. For example, there is a huge mismatch in the number of RN
> jobs in this country vs the number of RNs available to fill them. (It
> also uses the term "the feds imported" when in fact the "feds" don't
> import anybody; they simply provide authorization for other employers to
> recruit them.)
>
> You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to patients.
>
> a bill to waive the immigrant worker visa filing fees for elementary and
> secondary schoools; Rep. Green is a pro-labor Democrat. What's
> responsible for that dissonance?
>
> Well, something like 40% of Texas math teachers and 20% of science
> teachers aren't certified to teach those subjects -- they do so under
> temporary certification programs which give them a year or two to make
> up their educational deficiency, but in fact the majority of those
> teaching under temp certificates have neither the ability nor the
> interest to make up that deficiency, preferring to simply wait until a
> position in their field comes available. But, the larger problem is that
> there simply aren't enough math certified teachers to fill the jobs.
>
> The school districts wish to solve that problem by importing math
> teachers. (Many campuses already go WITHOUT a school nurse, btw, because
> of the aforementioned shortage.)
>
> One cannot assume that the only reason for an immigrant work visa filing
> is wage.
>
>
>
Hello JG,
You sound quite sure of yourself:
When i was a little girl, my family was quarantined because our duplex
neighbor had suspect polio. When i was doing HHA work, not only were
AIDS patients not quarantined, but there was some kind of "law" that
stated no HHA was allowed to know whether or not the patient had AIDS.
I quit the field, and went back to sitting behind a desk. A lot of
people did similar.
The public schools are full of jungle treachery and fear: no one from
an organized, civilized, Christian society wants to live like that,
and even many cannot, because of their breeding and upbringing.
Now then for the replacements: Third-world mentality (The dumbing down
of America)[please remember: you can even teach a horse to count, and
"You can take the bunny out of the jungle, but you cannot take the
jungle out of the bunny"] is replacing the organized, civilized,
American Christian here in The United States Of America, while our
young men are being killed off in pagan nations (genocide), where her
leader (Oil-slick Bush, Just another one of the Jew's lackeys) calls
her The Constitution Of The United States Of America, "Just a piece of
paper", while stealing from and slaughtering anyone Jew tells him to.
That, JG, is the big picture, now for the nitty-gritty:
Truly
Truth will set you free according to Jesus in John 8:32
Wisdom [is] better than weapons of war: . . . Ecc 9:18
Must Reads---->
http://www.judicial-inc.biz
http://www.jewwatch.com
The Truth About the Khazar: tinyurl.com/697m21
No Such Thing As "Jew": http://tinyurl.com/88y27
Monarch Slave Abusers: http://www.heart7.net/programmers.html
See Poor, Needy Jew Spend Your Hard-earned Wages (Foreign Aid):
http://tinyurl.com/yx4d7r
See Jew Murder USA Military Boys(USS LIBERTY): http://www.gtr5.com/
See Jew Destroy Your Nation: http://www.judicial-inc.biz
This proves America is in fact a Christian nation open to the
oppressed and persecuted no matter what religion:
http://www.tinyurl.com/lbgov
"Christian" isnot a religion; itis a proven fact of/by prophecies
culminated.
http://tinyurl.com/yw9x9c
http://tinyurl.com/4td7bw
http://tinyurl.com/ywfdbn
http://www.cdlreport.com/
http://www.rense.com/
http://benfrank.net/
http://www.whodidit.org/cocon.html
http://www.nsm88.org/index2.html
These are the "chosen": Rev. 17:14
"Jew" are the "chosen" of Satan: John 8:44
Jew Must Pay Up For Death of Our Saviour: Math. 27:25
Nate Nagel
Or we could encourage measures that would increase the standards of
living in "third world" countries and help their populations expect the
same kind of civil rights and safety regulations that we enjoy here.
This would likely increase wages overseas, making the economic component
of imported labor less of a factor.
> while our
> young men are being killed off in pagan nations (genocide), where her
> leader (Oil-slick Bush, Just another one of the Jew's lackeys) calls
> her The Constitution Of The United States Of America, "Just a piece of
> paper", while stealing from and slaughtering anyone Jew tells him to...
(poster goes completely off the rails)
That'll learn me to start a reply before reading the whole post.
John Galt
Yep. Free market for labor. If you need a job to be filled, increase the
pay until it's filled. If it were the private sector, that's what would
happen. BUT, because it's the public sector where substantial wage
increases require substantial tax increases (or decreases in the status
quo bureacracy) wages are stagnant.
>
>> Our current unemployment problem is not with the professional groups you
>> mention. They either have jobs or are enjoying comfortable retirements
>> from which they are unlikely to want to pull themselves out of bed at
>> 6AM each day. Our current unemployment problem are predominately people
>> who are NOT qualified by educational background to teach in the schools.
>> The number of people with sufficient education to teach that are without
>> work isn't large enough to address the problem.
>
> If the role of "teacher" paid better and commanded more respect we would
> not have a shortage.
Agreed. The job needs more pay, that pay should largely come from a
decrease in local bureacracy (a national curriculum, of which NCLB is a
first start, can help get us there) and a teaching environment which
supports teachers rather than makes unrealistic expectations of them
(that's a long story....) would get us to both of the objectives you cite.
JG
John Galt
I agree. There are probably some kinds of fruits and vegetables that
would become much more expensive if the pickers had to be paid in the
minimum-to-$10 per hour area. The average family, acting as rational
consumers, would slow or end their purchase of those products and pick
others instead, whereupon the farmers would make rational choices, based
on the shift in demand, to grow something else.
Supply and demand shift has been happening for millenia. No reason to
suddenly be afraid of it.
JG
John Galt
Yea, that's the other issue. Since the consolidation of private hospital
chains (you probably know this better than I do) floor nurse/patient
ratios have skyrocketed, making the job a crappy one. (Doesn't explain
why the schools are short on nurses, but the entire "job satisfaction"
thing is obviously playing in.
JG
John Galt
OK. Obviously, the allied health professions vary in training and
compensation. The low end of the wage totem pole, usually inhabited by
med techs and EMTs, are not particularly well paid.
JG
Kurt Ullman
John Galt <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> S
> I agree. There are probably some kinds of fruits and vegetables that
> would become much more expensive if the pickers had to be paid in the
> minimum-to-$10 per hour area. The average family, acting as rational
> consumers, would slow or end their purchase of those products and pick
> others instead, whereupon the farmers would make rational choices, based
> on the shift in demand, to grow something else.
>
Some permutations of three things would happen (1) prices would rise,
(2) pay would rise (3) mechanization would increase.
Kurt Ullman
John Galt <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
It's got nothing to do with private hospital chains. Some of the
hospitals run by the Sisters or other religious groups or other not for
profit are the worst offenders. Has to do with making health care into a
business. Has to do as much with reimbursement (specifically federal
reimbursement since studies show MCare and MCaid ALWAYS pay less than
the evil insurance companies for the same diagnosis) as anything one
thing in this area.
As with everything else it is multifactoral (for instance a lot of
the stuff the Joint Commission requires us to do means we spend much
more treating paper than patients), even to a certain amount turmoil
brought about those within the profession.
As an aside, the Joint Commission, I am convinced is set up to
accomplish three goals (1). Kill a certain number of trees each year,
(2). screw up healthcare productivity (3). annoy those on the front
lines that actually have to do the work. It does a bang up job of that
since no study in its entire history has ever linked Joint Commission
accreditation with any quality, safety, or other metric.
clams_casino
>
> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is about
> 50K - 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are
> regional, and your part of the country may differ. But down here, they
> are *not* being brought to save money -- they're being brought because
> there's not enough coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.
>
> JG
>
The primary problems with nursing are the wacky hours, expected
overtime and minimal increases in salary beyond that starting pay.
Teaching typically offers better wages (after several years), standard
hours and extensive vacation, holiday and sick time days with generous
pensions. Then again, it takes a different set of interests to deal
with the ill vs. keeping a classroom under control.
John Galt
Right. PRoductivity is always a factor. If labor costs $2, you don't
invest in machinery that might make the worker more productive.
JG
John Galt
We're not disagreeing on any point.
JG
John Galt
> John Galt wrote:
>
>>
>> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is about
>> 50K - 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are
>> regional, and your part of the country may differ. But down here, they
>> are *not* being brought to save money -- they're being brought because
>> there's not enough coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.
>>
>> JG
>>
>
> The primary problems with nursing are the wacky hours, expected
> overtime and minimal increases in salary beyond that starting pay.
Well, wacky brings overtime, and nurses can always increase
certification to earn more. Surgical nurses make considerably more than
floor RNs.
> Teaching typically offers better wages (after several years), standard
> hours and extensive vacation, holiday and sick time days with generous
> pensions. Then again, it takes a different set of interests to deal
> with the ill vs. keeping a classroom under control.
Yep.
JG
>
Kurt Ullman
John Galt <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Other that the implication (and I apologize if I took it wrong)
that the consolidation of private hospital chains had much to do with
lousy nurse patient ratios. Haven't seen anything suggesting that for
profit chains are any worse than the not-for-profits, religious run or
even government hospitals.
suds macheath
> John Galt wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>
>
> college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have been
teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
plus very generous
> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
> time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
suds macheath
> In article <4ku_k.382964$vK2....@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com>,
> John Galt <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
>> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
>> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
>> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to patients.
>>
>> a bill to waive the immigrant worker visa filing fees for elementary and
>> secondary schoools; Rep. Green is a pro-labor Democrat. What's
>> responsible for that dissonance?
> have to join the teacher's union.
----In Texas? BWAHAHAHA....ever heard of "right to work"?
clams_casino
> clams_casino wrote:
>
>> John Galt wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>
>>
>>
>> What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just out
>> of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>
>
> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and up.
I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High school level
have doctorates.
http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/ is
a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time, but
but salary position doesn't? I, for example, typically worked an
extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate world
do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
>
> plus very generous
>
>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
>> time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>
>
> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>
>
>
>
What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year? Other than UAW
and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
90%) health coverage.
Lubow
"John Galt" <kad...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:LuF_k.382974$vK2.3...@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com...
> Lubow wrote:
>>>
>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be grading
>>> papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>
>>
>
> NEA website -- one of the things they are pushing for is a national minimum
> starting salary of 40K.
I have read of teachers in the red states requiring food stamps to get by.
Thanks for sharing that piece of info.
suds macheath
---The lunatic fringe checks in.....
John Galt
I believe that the degredation of the patient/nurse ratio occurred
concurrent with the shift from indepedent to chain hospital systems
owned by hospital corporations. I intended no comparison to the not for
profits or any other. I have no doubt that if the religious or
governmetn hospitals saw that the chains were getting away with working
fewer nurses harder, they would follow suit.
JG
John Galt
It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K,
Dallas 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in Philadelphia
and Chicago, and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning teacher in the
NYC Metro Area (42K) is a lot more likely to be on food stamps than the
starting teacher in Houston.
JG
Joy
> patmp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Dec 6, 7:34 pm, John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:20:24 -0800 (PST),
>>>> obamao.sux.donki.dix...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> With the federal government reporting another giant loss of jobs for
>>>>> November, isn't it time to stop the massive importation of foreign
>>>>> workers?
>>>>> http://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/december-5-2008/5330...
>>>> Does anyone still support this frigging government"
>>>> ted
>>> The article, quite unfortunately, says nothing about what the imported
>>> workers do. For example, there is a huge mismatch in the number of RN
>>> jobs in this country vs the number of RNs available to fill them. (It
>>> also uses the term "the feds imported" when in fact the "feds" don't
>>> import anybody; they simply provide authorization for other employers to
>>> recruit them.)
>>>
>>> You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
>>> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
>>> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
>>> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to
>>> patients.
>>
>> can't get enough health care workers is that the wages are too low.
>> Think $8 hour. Instead workers are being imported from overseas,
>> particularly the Philippines, and they may not provide good care.
>
> 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are regional, and
> your part of the country may differ. But down here, they are *not* being
> brought to save money -- they're being brought because there's not enough
> coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.
This is likely to only get worse, unfortunately. Many schools that offer
nursing degrees are financially strapped, and are reducing the number of
students they accept into these programs as a cost-cutting move (even though
the number of students *applying* to nursing school may be increasing). So,
to some degree, the shortage of nurses has nothing to do with demand or with
payscale or even working conditions - it has to do with the way we fund our
colleges and universities:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/12/07/20081207nursing1207.html
http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2008/04/04/Metro/Nursing.Needs.Teachers-3303960.shtml
suds macheath
---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months....they are 10
month employees...you have to work for a while to save up 60 vacation
days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....
Other than UAW
> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
> 90%) health coverage.
----But most have health care benefits for salaried employees, do they not?
George
> suds macheath wrote:
>
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>
>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just out
>>> of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>>
>>
>> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
>> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
>
>
> That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and up.
> I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High school level
> have doctorates.
>
> http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/ is
> a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time, but
> but salary position doesn't?
In my state that would be teachers. In my state the most powerful labor
union is the PSEA which represents the public school teachers.
Most of my jobs have been salaried and I have a comparable eduction to a
teacher. I have a number of friends and relatives who are teachers.
A typical teacher works six hours/day here. It is pretty unusual for
them to take work home since they have a 1 hour study period where they
can also do grading. If a new teacher works harder they are quietly
pulled and the side and told to cut it out and follow whatever is in the
workbooks. Their union contracts require that at least two teachers must
be present for any event be it a bake sale or sporting competition. They
get an additional $150 each for up to 2 hours for this.
I, for example, typically worked an
> extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate world
> do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
>
Mr too, that isn't unusual at all. I remember one year where I worked
every Saturday and Sunday besides the 10 hour weekdays without
additional pay.
>
>>
>> plus very generous
>>
>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
>>> time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>
>>
>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>
>>
>>
>>
> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year? Other than UAW
> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
> 90%) health coverage.
In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health plan
that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero possibility for
out of pocket expense. This costs us over $1,800/month for each teacher.
And as you stated they get 12 weeks paid vacation, all holidays and if
there is a hint of snow they can just hit the snooze button because a
snow day will be called.
George
Public school teachers salaries in PA are annual. They can choose to be
paid either as weekly or divided by the number of weeks of the school
session.
Lubow
> It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K, Dallas
> 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in Philadelphia and Chicago,
> and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning teacher in the NYC Metro Area (42K)
> is a lot more likely to be on food stamps than the starting teacher in
> Houston.
You're looking at all teachers, not just the tenured teachers. Big difference.
Think of it as what NFL rookies get compared to what the vets get for doing
essentially the same work.
Anyway, I'm in the NY metro area and the biggest problem facing our school
district is the amount of space allocated to parking. It seems the teachers do
not want cars to either side of their Lexuses or Beemers.
Mike
> Computer programing also used to be a reliable career field, now I would
> never recommend that any student in America go into IT or programming in
> general.
the decline in the value of computer programming careers was the natural
result of the rise of microsoft because the smart programmers refused to
be caged by the lame ass windows environment and went off to find greener
pastures elsewhere. another reason is that venture capitalists don't
like funding software projects for which, on the off chance one actually
becomes highly successful, the profits will all wind up in the hands of a
highly predatory monopolistic law firm that specializes in violating
antitrust (ie. msft).
Kurt Ullman
suds macheath <sudsmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Forgot it was Texas. Although the more people are teachers, the more
are likely to join. If one in ten joins a union, I would rather have 100
new teachers than ten.
John Galt
>>
>> It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K,
>> Dallas 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in
>> Philadelphia and Chicago, and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning
>> teacher in the NYC Metro Area (42K) is a lot more likely to be on food
>> stamps than the starting teacher in Houston.
>
>
> You're looking at all teachers, not just the tenured teachers.
I'm looking at starting salaries only. That's the context under which
the topic was brought into the discussion.
JG
Goomba
>> You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
>> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
>> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
>> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to patients.
>
> According to a friend in the health care business, the reason they
> can't get enough health care workers is that the wages are too low.
> Think $8 hour. Instead workers are being imported from overseas,
> particularly the Philippines, and they may not provide good care.
No one in Nursing makes only $8/hour. UN-licensed assistants *might*
(and I think wages are still higher) but they're not nurses nor should
they be confused as such.
Goomba
> Hello JG,
>
> You sound quite sure of yourself:
>
> When i was a little girl, my family was quarantined because our duplex
> neighbor had suspect polio. When i was doing HHA work, not only were
> AIDS patients not quarantined, but there was some kind of "law" that
> stated no HHA was allowed to know whether or not the patient had AIDS.
> I quit the field, and went back to sitting behind a desk. A lot of
> people did similar.
>
Well, not to berate you but you do know you can't catch HIV from close
contact, right? There is and never was any reason to quarantine someone
with HIV.
And obviously there is no need to "know" who has HIV as you are supposed
to assume *everyone* has it and act accordingly. Don't swap body fluids
with anyone, yada yada yada....
BobR
> > John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is about 50K
> >> - 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are regional,
> >> and your part of the country may differ. But down here, they are *not*
> >> being brought to save money -- they're being brought because there's not
> >> enough coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.
>
>
> > The nursing shortage probably isn't at that end. Studies have
> > consistently shown that between 15% and 20% of RNs under 65 are no
> > longer in nursing. You get even half of those back and you are in good
> > shape. Even at the height of my youthful powers, I couldn't take more
> > than 3 years at a time before I had to get out at least for awhile.
>
> Yea, that's the other issue. Since the consolidation of private hospital
> chains (you probably know this better than I do) floor nurse/patient
> ratios have skyrocketed, making the job a crappy one. (Doesn't explain
> why the schools are short on nurses, but the entire "job satisfaction"
> thing is obviously playing in.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
With the growing uncertain future of the healthcare field, nobody sees
healthcare as a good choice for a career. Who wants to spend huge
sums of money on graduate and post graduate degrees along with the
subsequent low paying years as a resident for a career that may only
pay the equilivent of teacher pay?
Goomba
> clams_casino wrote:
>> The primary problems with nursing are the wacky hours, expected
>> overtime and minimal increases in salary beyond that starting pay.
>
> Well, wacky brings overtime, and nurses can always increase
> certification to earn more. Surgical nurses make considerably more than
> floor RNs.
>
Not quite. Nurses with special skills and certifications earn more, even
when working on floors. Working in a "surgical" environment has nothing
to do with it.
And as a natural night owl, there is nothing "wacky" to me about working
nights. I do enjoy getting that night shift differential though.
I work 24 hours a week and earn about 70K a year. Not too shabby, IMO.
Goomba
> I have read of teachers in the red states requiring food stamps to get
> by. Thanks for sharing that piece of info.
None that I know do. But don't let me detract you from a little injected
drama.
HeyBub
>>
>> I have read of teachers in the red states requiring food stamps to
>> get by. Thanks for sharing that piece of info.
>
> It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K,
> Dallas 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in
> Philadelphia and Chicago, and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning
> teacher in the NYC Metro Area (42K) is a lot more likely to be on
> food stamps than the starting teacher in Houston.
>
Take that Houston $38K and wind it down to an hourly rate.
Let's see... Texas mandates 180 days of instruction. At seven hours per day,
that's 1,260 hours. $38,000/1260 is a bit over $30/hour. Not as much as a
Detroit auto-worker, but not chump-change either.
Here's another bit of trivia: The Houston Independent School District spends
about 45% of it's employee budget on teacher salaries and perks. Oh, you've
got to have somebody to drive the busses and print the paychecks, but when
less than half your personnel costs go directly to your primary mission,
something's amiss.
HeyBub
> Kurt Ullman wrote:
>> John Galt <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is
>>> about 50K - 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing
>>> wages are regional, and your part of the country may differ. But
>>> down here, they are *not* being brought to save money -- they're
>>> being brought because there's not enough coming out of the nursing
>>> schools to meet demand. JG
>>
>> The nursing shortage probably isn't at that end. Studies have
>> consistently shown that between 15% and 20% of RNs under 65 are no
>> longer in nursing. You get even half of those back and you are in
>> good shape. Even at the height of my youthful powers, I couldn't
>> take more than 3 years at a time before I had to get out at least
>> for awhile.
>
> Yea, that's the other issue. Since the consolidation of private
> hospital chains (you probably know this better than I do) floor
> nurse/patient ratios have skyrocketed, making the job a crappy one.
> (Doesn't explain why the schools are short on nurses, but the entire
> "job satisfaction" thing is obviously playing in.
>
Some of the declining RN/patient ratio has to do with automation. Nurses no
longer have to take your temperature, heart rate, and blood pressure every
hour - they can watch it minute-by-minute on the monitors at the nurse's
station. The amount of paperwork has gone down as computers take over more
and more of the record-keeping.
clams_casino
>
> ---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months..
Call it what you want. They average $60k around here for a job that
provides them with 12 weeks and a dozen holidays off. Try to find that
in the corporate world.
> ..they are 10 month employees...you have to work for a while to save
> up 60 vacation days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....
>
> Other than UAW
>
>> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
>> 90%) health coverage.
>
>
> ----But most have health care benefits for salaried employees, do they
> not?
But typically at about 40-50% - not 90m- 100%.
clams_casino
Teachers do tend to start at relatively low wages, but their pay tends
to scale up at a much faster rate than typical corporate jobs. Most
corporate jobs tend to get inflation plus perhaps a few percent with
some raises with promotions each perhaps five years. Teachers
typically receive inflation adjustments plus regular pay grade increase
that greatly reward those who have a few years on the job.
HeyBub
>
>
> the decline in the value of computer programming careers was the
> natural result of the rise of microsoft because the smart programmers
> refused to be caged by the lame ass windows environment and went off
> to find greener pastures elsewhere. another reason is that venture
> capitalists don't like funding software projects for which, on the
> off chance one actually becomes highly successful, the profits will
> all wind up in the hands of a highly predatory monopolistic law firm
> that specializes in violating antitrust (ie. msft).
Quite possibly. Programmers are like dentists - technically oriented,
scientifically trained, but also artists. Every sterotype of the beatnik
living in a garret in Greenwich Village holds for (most) programmers, even
if they wear three-piece suits in a commercial environment.
I've seen programs that didn't work, wouldn't work, and couldn't be made to
work, but were revered because of the style, elegance, and cleverness of the
author.
On the other hand, what's a "smart" programmer? The programmers who started
with Microsoft in the early years, and stuck it out, are multimillionaires.
Of course they were not true to their own natures, sinned against the basic
beauty of the machine-man interaction, and degenerated into venal slugs -
but they retired at age 30 on a 60-foot yacht.
They had no shame.
John Galt
That's one of the big question marks in the 800 lb gorilla called
"health care reform." It's hard to imagine any nationalized system
working without reducing the pay of the higher-level medical
professionals and the profits of hospitals.
JG
>
John Galt
There was a movement up a few years ago (something to do with the owner
behind overstock.com, IIRC) to get school districts to agree that 60% of
their tax receipts should be earmarked for classroom use. It went
nowhere, but illustrated the fact that most school districts maintain a
significant non-classroom bureacracy. PART of that is that we're the
only major nation without a national curriculum, and each school
district thus needs curriculum educrats to figure out what's going to be
taught.
But the bloat in the school districts is indefensible --- and I suspect
HISD is less an offender than many.
JG
>
>
Caesar Romano
wrote Re Re: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign
Workers!:
>>
>> Doesn't say much for the prospects of American tech careers. If I had
>> been smarter I would have been one of those who left after 10-years
>> instead of hanging in for 40 (well, 37 actually) years.
>
>Are you a PE?
Yes. I have PE licenses in two states in two separate disciplines (2
in California and 1 in Alabama).
BobR
>
> - Show quoted text -
Please show me where the hospitals are making all that profit. You
want to reform healthcare then the first place you look is at
insurance companies. They sit in the position of screwing both the
healthcare providers and the patients. They sole purpose is to make a
profit and they don't give a damn how they do it. The insurance
companies dictate what will be paid to the providers and that extends
to what the providers can charge. Tell me one other business that
must accept what the customer decides they will pay rather that amount
is enough to cover their costs. If the providers don't accept, the
insurance companies have no qualms about forcing the patients to go
elsewhere even if the quality of the care is unacceptable.
Percival P. Cassidy
> Please show me where the hospitals are making all that profit. You
> want to reform healthcare then the first place you look is at
> insurance companies. They sit in the position of screwing both the
> healthcare providers and the patients. They sole purpose is to make a
> profit and they don't give a damn how they do it. The insurance
> companies dictate what will be paid to the providers and that extends
> to what the providers can charge. Tell me one other business that
> must accept what the customer decides they will pay rather that amount
> is enough to cover their costs. If the providers don't accept, the
> insurance companies have no qualms about forcing the patients to go
> elsewhere even if the quality of the care is unacceptable.
People tell me that things have changed in Australia in the last 20
years or so, but it used to be that most hospitals were run as a public
service by religious bodies (denominations or religious orders) or by
(semi-)government bodies: e.g., the Brisbane Hospitals Board.
And many of the health-insurance organizations were typically some kind
of cooperative.
Perce
The Daring Dufas
The administrators soak up a heck of a lot of
money. Some of them are paid CEO like salaries.
TDD
John Galt
Any reform system will have to examine all the profit points in detail.
They sit in the position of screwing both the
> healthcare providers and the patients. They sole purpose is to make a
> profit and they don't give a damn how they do it. The insurance
> companies dictate what will be paid to the providers and that extends
> to what the providers can charge. Tell me one other business that
> must accept what the customer decides they will pay rather that amount
> is enough to cover their costs. If the providers don't accept, the
> insurance companies have no qualms about forcing the patients to go
> elsewhere even if the quality of the care is unacceptable.
I agree. What we've created is a bastardized system where free market
price controls have been removed.
JG
>
aemeijers
because I know from personal experience that they are not. But in
fairness to teachers, the 1260 hours a year to base salary on is a
crock. Every teacher I have ever known had at least a couple hours prep
work at night, several hours on weekends, plus quite often various
'other duties as assigned' at their school, helping out with early or
late activities. Unless they had well-paid spouses, most of the teachers
I have known have had to take summer gigs teaching or working in other
professions to make ends meet.
Not saying teachers are saints, mind you - there are lazy ones and
stupid ones, like any profession. But the vast majority of teachers I
have known, even ones I strongly disagreed with, worked their asses off.
There is a reason the burnout rate is so high- it is a hard job. I'd put
it right up there with primary-care nursing and street police work, and
for similar reasons.
--
aem sends...
Mike
there's very little evidence that msft ever had any good programmers
judging by product quality which is as bad as it gets. sure they
eventually developed an os that doesn't crash every 10 minutes but that
was written by what, one or two programmers? how many tens of $billions
of monopoly profits obtained by highly predatory monopolistic antitrust
violating activities did it take for that to happen? not to mention how
many decades behind the technology curve they were in implementing the
core of a stable system (ie. memory management), twenty years at least
behind what was standard in computer science, not to mention the plethora
of systems already using the technology. no, msft's millionaires didn't
come from technology, it came from sales/marketing and a whole lot of
antitrust violating "innovation". now that's not to say that there
weren't any msft millionaires that had the title of "programmer", but
their success is more properly attributed to being in the right place at
the right time (under the astronomically huge waterfall of antitrust
violating monopoly profits) because in the real world (outside of the
fiction created within the walls of msft) applications like talking
paperclips & "microsoft bob" just don't cut it. so the point being that
all the programmers that didn't happen to be working for msft could see
the writing on the wall, and the smart ones reacted accordingly...
Vic Smith
wrote:
>
>I've seen programs that didn't work, wouldn't work, and couldn't be made to
>work, but were revered because of the style, elegance, and cleverness of the
>author.
>
That's pretty funny bullshit there. Get that from Super-Nerd Comics?
Sounds like something Maxwell Maxprogrammer might say.
Just before Bad Bixby Bug injected him with a nerd anti-virus.
--Vic
patmp...@gmail.com
>
>
> I've seen programs that didn't work, wouldn't work, and couldn't be made to
> work, but were revered because of the style, elegance, and cleverness of the
> author.
>
That I have never seen.
Lubow
> The administrators soak up a heck of a lot of
> money. Some of them are paid CEO like salaries.
>
Got that right. After spending twenty years attending B of E meetings and
citizen budget meetings the one recurring theme is that educating the kids is
the least important part of the public education system.
For example, at one time the highest paid teacher in our system was the strength
conditioning coach who seemed to have an IQ in double digits but was the ne'er
do well son of a B of E member. The coach's dad besides being the B of E member
was also the chief of staff to our local assemlyman. When the father died, the
son was fired.
Once I attended a citizens budget workshop where spending issues were discussed
between B of E members and the public. One funny item was for two dozen SLR
cameras for a photography course. "What was wrong with the cameras we bought
last year?" I asked.
"We can't find them."
Anyway, after the workshop concluded and the residents were assured that all
budgetary issues were closed, about 200 onlookers left the auditorium. I stayed
on for the administrative part of the meeting. With only a handful of residents
remaining, one B of E member wanted an additional budget line opened so her
daughter could get a job as a "counselor." I began screaming my head off that
the member was out of order. They almost called the cops because every resident
remaining at the meeting started screaming. Finally, the president of the B of
E got the nerve to state, "All budget matters are closed."
Bill Reid
<patmp...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:13d135e2-d271-4baf...@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
Then you haven't seen much.
You yourself just used such a program.
You wanna talk about "American engineers"? You don't
have to look any further than all the "unfairly" laid-off engineers
who have spent the last few years polluting this newsgroup.
Here's one, a guy who calls "himself" (though sometimes "he"
has posted under women's names) "millstox". Here's "his"
self-described story of his engineering career: one time he
was assigned to write a program. He decided that the available
DEBUGGER didn't meet his exacting requirements, so he
"assigned himself" the open-ended task of writing a debugger
that would meet "his needs" rather than actually writing the
program he was assigned to write.
After a couple of years of this nonsense, he expressed total
surprise and indignation that "evil know-nothing management"
decided they didn't need "his" software development services
anymore. "He"'s spent the last seven years pretending to be
an "options trader" and screaming that "Microsoft wrecked
the software industry" and blowing through his non-existent
savings and now is living in a Unabomber shack doing
hard labor (the first REAL work he's done in "his" life, a hell
of a way to END your life).
THAT'S American "engineering", in a nutshell. For a large
portion of American "engineers", their greatest accomplishment
is to have melanin-poor skin, and like Michael "Lubow" Tenenbaum
they just can't accept when somebody with a greater resistance
to skin cancer may be perceived or ACTUALLY be a more
educated, dedicated, and productive engineer than they. So
they show up here to fling their frustrated hate...
But "millstox" WAS right about one thing...the problem IS
"American management". Unfortunately for him, they should
have fired him a LONG time before the tech crash, or at least
looked him hard in the eye and put him on warning years
earlier, might have actually worked...I've had a few opportunities
to do it and it actually DID work, who knew, you really CAN
manage people "professionally", if you yourself actually know
what the hell you're doing...
---
William Ernest Reid
Post count: 1367
suds macheath
> suds macheath wrote:
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>> suds macheath wrote:
>>>
>>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
>>>> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
>>>
>>>
>>> That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and
>>> up. I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High
>>> school level have doctorates.
>>>
>>> http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/
>>> is a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time,
>>> but but salary position doesn't? I, for example, typically worked
>>> an extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate
>>> world do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> plus very generous
>>>>
>>>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and
>>>>> vacation time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year?
>>
>> ---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months....they are 10
>> days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....
>
> paid either as weekly or divided by the number of weeks of the school
> session.
----Sounds like they are paid for ten months and may choose to have
their pay divided over 12 months, just like here. The summer months
aren't a vacation....
suds macheath
> suds macheath wrote:
>
>>
>> ---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months..
>
>
> Call it what you want. They average $60k around here
----After being on the job 20+ years with at least a masters degree....
for a job that
> provides them with 12 weeks
----unpaid....
and a dozen holidays off.
----Spent grading papers and catching up....
Try to find that
> in the corporate world.
----Sure....why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a
cushy job?
>
>
>> ..they are 10 month employees...you have to work for a while to save
>> up 60 vacation days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....
>>
>> Other than UAW
>>
>>> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
>>> 90%) health coverage.
>>
>>
>> ----But most have health care benefits for salaried employees, do they
>> not?
>
>
> But typically at about 40-50% - not 90m- 100%.
Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a cushy job?
Can't cut it?
suds macheath
> clams_casino wrote:
>> suds macheath wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just out
>>>> of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>>>
>>>
>>> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
>>> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
>>
>>
>> That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and
>> up. I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High school
>> level have doctorates.
>>
>> http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/
>> is a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time,
>> but but salary position doesn't?
>
> union is the PSEA which represents the public school teachers.
>
> Most of my jobs have been salaried and I have a comparable eduction to a
> teacher. I have a number of friends and relatives who are teachers.
>
> A typical teacher works six hours/day here. It is pretty unusual for
> them to take work home since they have a 1 hour study period where they
> can also do grading. If a new teacher works harder they are quietly
> pulled and the side and told to cut it out and follow whatever is in the
> workbooks. Their union contracts require that at least two teachers must
> be present for any event be it a bake sale or sporting competition. They
> get an additional $150 each for up to 2 hours for this.
----Sounds too good to be true....why aren't you on the gravy train.....
>
>
>
> I, for example, typically worked an
>> extra 8-12 hrs/ week (no overtime). Most I know in the corporate
>> world do / did similar overtime (without additional pay).
----Sounds like you're a fool for not teaching, if teaching's such a
well paid, cushy job....
>>
> Mr too, that isn't unusual at all. I remember one year where I worked
> every Saturday and Sunday besides the 10 hour weekdays without
> additional pay.
----Sounds like you're a fool for not teaching......
>
>>
>>>
>>> plus very generous
>>>
>>>> benefits benefits with very generous holiday, sick time and vacation
>>>> time that no engineer could ever expect to see.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---I'm sure benefits at large corporations are comparable....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year? Other than
>> UAW and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or
>> even 90%) health coverage.
>
> In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health plan
> that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero possibility for
> out of pocket expense.
---They don't pay premiums for their families?
This costs us over $1,800/month for each teacher.
> And as you stated they get 12 weeks paid vacation,
---They don't get paid for the summer months, do they? It takes years to
build up 60 vacation days....
all holidays and if
> there is a hint of snow they can just hit the snooze button because a
> snow day will be called.
----Why haven't you got on the gravy train?
Can't cut it?
Kurt Ullman
"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> Some of the declining RN/patient ratio has to do with automation. Nurses no
> longer have to take your temperature, heart rate, and blood pressure every
> hour - they can watch it minute-by-minute on the monitors at the nurse's
> station. The amount of paperwork has gone down as computers take over more
> and more of the record-keeping.
Not in the real world. The really neat things are only in the ICUs
and similar units, not on the floors where most of the action is. Even
then you still have to write down or otherwise acknowledge that you
actually looked at the vital signs. The amount of paperwork has
drastically increased over the years I was a nurse. And I was working
Psych which is a lot less paper-intense than most areas since we most
often work with physically healthy patients.
Han de Bruijn
From the Netherlands: the amount of paperwork has drastically increased
over the years in the hospitals, here too, and has not gone down.
Han de Bruijn
Kurt Ullman
John Galt <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree. What we've created is a bastardized system where free market
> price controls have been removed.
>
>
This pretty much started with (surprise!) an expedient decision by
the federal government. During WWII, people were starting to get a
little restive about wage controls. The Feds decided that if the
employer wanted to pay for part of the health insurance premium that
wasn't a raise. The employers (quite rightly) said that's cool but we
get to deduct it off OUR taxes just like we do the wages. The Feds said
"Okey Dokey", but did not think at the time to let the individual do the
same for theirs.
This set in motion much of what you see today. It (through that tax
thing above) tied health insurance to the job. It divorced the people
using the service (you and me) from those actually paying for the
service (the employer and later the Feds). It made the employer the main
customer of the insurance company and not the user of the service (which
helps explain a lot of the managed care and HMO stuff). It lead to a
large subsidy of the service (an annual report from the Office of the
Actuary at Medicare says that 80% of all out of pocket expenses for
healthcare--including the o-o-p part of the premium-- is paid by someone
other you and me) with the attendant dislocations in demand that are
seen when something is that heavily subsidized. (Which of course are
made worse by the barriers to admission of new supply since I can't just
hang out my shingle and say I am a doctor).
The advent of MCaid added to the problems by setting an effective
floor on what was considered good benefits which was further complicated
by actions of (largely) the automakers in the 70s and early 80s when it
was actually cheaper to give increases in health insurance than real
money. This put the floor even higher for most policies.
As an aside: I tend to wax and wane on whether to feel sorry for the
current honchoes of the big Three or feel they got their comeuppance in
many respects (g).
BTW: The annual report from the Office of the Actuary at Medicare
cited above for the o-o-p expenses also shows that that %age diving from
50% in the early 60s to around 18% by the mid-80s. A similar graph shows
the takeoff of healthcare as a %age of GDP going up as the o-o-p goes
down. Coincidence? I think not!
The US has managed this rather shaggy dog healthcare system where
all of the constraints on demand have been removed but no constraints on
costs have been insituted until relatively recently and then only in a
slap dash fashion. Most of the other places when they removed
constraints on demand (universal health care paid largely invisibly
through taxes, etc) added constraints on supply. Some through queueing,
some through availability of newer and thus more expensive tech and
medications, some through just not offering some services.
Add to that the fact that we are trying to now administer a chronic
healthcare system by grafting it onto the existing acute system. The
patchwork of state-regulation of national insurance companies,
especially where each state has differing requirements for minimum
coverage that are more political than medical (the next study that shows
any outcome differences from the so-called "drive-by delivery" will be
first one).
Two things to conclude this particular screed. (1) Someone recently
in an article I read suggested that maybe we should actually try to
establish a healthcare system before we tear it down and little in the
current healthcare methodology is systematic. (2). In a similar fashion,
I point out that the heavy subsidy of healthcare is hardly indicative of
a free market, so maybe we should actually try a free market healthcare
system before we decide it won't work.
clams_casino
>
> Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a cushy job?
> Can't cut it?
Never considered it when I was younger. It would be a serious
consideration if I was entering college today.
My brother switched to a teaching career when he was about forty. He
thoroughly enjoys those 12 week summer vacations as well as the extra
holiday and mid winter breaks. He admits the job has its ups and downs,
but it's primarily the administration rather than the kids that are the
problem. Nevertheless, he has claims to have no regrets dumping the
40+ hr corporate job. If nothing else, his job will never be out
source, plus the health and retirement benefits are outstanding.
clams_casino
>>>
>>
>>
>> In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health plan
>> that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero possibility
>> for out of pocket expense.
>
>
> ---They don't pay premiums for their families?
>
>
Not much around here. Full family coverage was 100% covered until
recent years, but now they are paying about 5%.
clams_casino
> Not saying most school systems are paragons of financial efficiency,
> because I know from personal experience that they are not. But in
> fairness to teachers, the 1260 hours a year to base salary on is a
> crock. Every teacher I have ever known had at least a couple hours
> prep work at night, several hours on weekends, plus quite often
> various 'other duties as assigned' at their school, helping out with
> early or late activities.
I'm not aware of many salaried professionals who do not routinely work
beyond 40 hrs (without pay).
Unless they had well-paid spouses, most of the teachers I have known
have had to take summer gigs teaching or working in other professions to
make ends meet.
A good friend of ours who teaches middle school French visits France
ever year as a tax deductible expense to "improve" French skills. Nice
perk.
> There is a reason the burnout rate is so high- it is a hard job. I'd
> put it right up there with primary-care nursing and street police
> work, and for similar reasons.
>
> --
> aem sends...
Teaching is not for everyone, just as true of other professions. It's
the reason salaries ramp up significantly with years experience. That's
way to keep some that might throw it in.
John Galt
Yep. I always have a nice laugh when some proponent of nationalized care
says something stupid like "we have a free market health care system
now, and look at where it got us."
When some government (city, state, local, whatever) is paying nearly 50%
of all the health care billing in the country, you obviously don't have
a free market system, unless you have redefined the term "free market"
rather significantly.
> Add to that the fact that we are trying to now administer a chronic
> healthcare system by grafting it onto the existing acute system. The
> patchwork of state-regulation of national insurance companies,
> especially where each state has differing requirements for minimum
> coverage that are more political than medical (the next study that shows
> any outcome differences from the so-called "drive-by delivery" will be
> first one).
> Two things to conclude this particular screed. (1) Someone recently
> in an article I read suggested that maybe we should actually try to
> establish a healthcare system before we tear it down and little in the
> current healthcare methodology is systematic. (2). In a similar fashion,
> I point out that the heavy subsidy of healthcare is hardly indicative of
> a free market, so maybe we should actually try a free market healthcare
> system before we decide it won't work.
We're on the same page. Unfortunately, no politician has yet been able
to fully articulate a free market vision.
JG
HeyBub
>>
>>
>> They had no shame.
>
>
> there's very little evidence that msft ever had any good programmers
> judging by product quality which is as bad as it gets.
## People vote with their wallets. Microsoft on 92% of the world's desktop
is a pretty compelling vote.
> sure they
> eventually developed an os that doesn't crash every 10 minutes but
> that was written by what, one or two programmers? how many tens of
> $billions of monopoly profits obtained by highly predatory
> monopolistic antitrust violating activities did it take for that to
> happen?
## Monopolies are, in general, good. The people who rail against them are
usually the competitors. The arch villain, Standard Oil, brought down the
price of kerosene from $3.00/gallon to five cents. In three years. Of course
the people who supplied whale oil for lighting were upset, but the ghouls no
longer owned the night.
## Microsoft has never engaged in predatory monopolistic antitrust
practices - at least according to a few courts and thousands of lawyers who
routinely get prospective clients that want to allege such. Heck, most of
the software that runs on Macs was written by Microsoft!
> not to mention how many decades behind the technology curve
> they were in implementing the core of a stable system (ie. memory
> management), twenty years at least behind what was standard in
> computer science, not to mention the plethora of systems already
> using the technology. no, msft's millionaires didn't come from
> technology, it came from sales/marketing and a whole lot of antitrust
> violating "innovation".
## You live in an alternate universe where "best" is equated with
technological superiority. I suggest that universality is more important
that technological prowess. Word Perfect (or even Wordstar) may be a
technologically better product than Word, but if everyone to whom you send
such a document has to either ignore it or re-format it or download a
reader, you've just increased the entropy of the computer world.
> now that's not to say that there weren't any
> msft millionaires that had the title of "programmer", but their
> success is more properly attributed to being in the right place at
> the right time (under the astronomically huge waterfall of antitrust
> violating monopoly profits)
## Yep. Woody Allen said "90% of success is just showing up." I'd say that
"showing up at the right place" is implied. Again, Microsoft has never
violated U.S. antitrust laws - there is no law against being a monopoly.
There ARE laws against monopolistic practices, but Microsoft has never been
shown to have engaged in these prohibited tactics.
> because in the real world (outside of the
> fiction created within the walls of msft) applications like talking
> paperclips & "microsoft bob" just don't cut it. so the point being
> that all the programmers that didn't happen to be working for msft
> could see the writing on the wall, and the smart ones reacted
> accordingly...
## Well, yeah, Microsoft has made product mistakes that even their sales
prowess couldn't overcome. So did Ford with the Edsel. Likewise "New Coke."
Being large doesn't confer perfection. But you must allow that Microsoft
generally makes fewer (marketing) mistakes than it's competition.
FULL DISCLOSURE
Just because I own a few thousand shares of MSFT in no way colors my
comments or perception of the company!
hal...@aol.com
grand ......
way more than the average pay of residents
looks like national unemployment will go to over 10%
bushes legacy costs are going to be killers