Another 401k question
pooky
I am looking to correct the bad situation of being in debt, which would
include gettting rid of mortgage debt. It seems that even if I
eliminated the credit card debt that we have, that mortgage debt is
just as bad and if I'm going to take the hit of a 401k distribution, I
may as well knock down the mortgage as well.
The situation is (approx numbers):
- $140k bi-weekly mortgage with pmi @ 4.625% with a potential rise to
5.625% if I lose my employment. Last year, pmi cost me $1100. I do
pay $100/mo additional principal.
- $15k in cc debt (although only a 1/3 has an interest applied and the
rest is on-schedule to be paid before the 0% intro runs out)
- no "direct" car payment (car was paid off with a lower interest cc
that is factored in the $15k cc line). We drive an 8yo and 7yo
vehicles, each purchased as used and require minimal maintenance.
- I pay approximately $297/mo in mortgage interest and pmi
- I pay approximately $1500 to the cc bills which incurs $62/mo in
interest ($360/mo total in interest to mortgage, pmi and cc's)
- Last year, my taxable income was $34k, so the distribution would
probably kick me into the next bracket, but I am unsure of how much
that effect would be.
- I am in my mid-30's
The problem is that we are cash poor and $360/mo is a lot to be paying
in interest, which is why we are looking to get out as quickly as
possible. We are already bulk buying, buy on-sale online, visiting
garage sales and do not eat out, etc. but without the ability to pay
all of the bills with cash and live on cash, we recognize that we are
fighting a losing battle.
I have recently changed jobs and have approx. $66k in my former 401k
plan. I am trying to figure out what my distribution would be
after-tax, if I took it as a check and/or whether or not the hit would
be worth it in the long run.
As I read about the effect of compound interest and average rate of
return on an investment, the "expected" calculation rate seems to be
between 8-10%. However, with the major corporatation legal issues (who
doens't have their executives on trial right now???), and other
uncertainties in the market, I have a great deal of uneasiness with
expecting that rate in the future.
It seems that my investment options by rolling the 401k would be to
hope for a 10% (let's use this for argument's sake) return over the
next 30 years, minus taxes at withdrawal of around 15%, which would
reduce my actual take to 8.5-9%. Or, I could invest in lower risk
options other than equities and take a lower rate of return.
Alternatively, I could take the $66k, minus the 10% penalty tax
($6,600) and what my regular estimated tax rate would be ~30%
(estimated tax and would cost ~$19.8k), this would leave me approx.
$39,600 (66-19.8-6.6 = $39,600).
What would I do with that money?
- pay off all cc and cut them up
- Pay off enough of the mortgage to eliminate pmi (roughly $17k needed,
although this may be less as our property has appreciated since it was
bought)
- any money leftover would go to: 2005 Roth, emergency fund
The $4300/yr not tied up in interest and pmi, plus the $1500/month not
going to cc principle (~1800/mo total) would go toward rebuilding
retirement, a better budget, house repairs, child savings and paying
off my mortgage early. I am also looking at low-startup cost
businesses in addition to my salary. This, I believe, would give a
guaranteed, tax-free 4.625% return on pre-paid mortgage dollars,
eliminate the pmi and cc interest and significantly dent my overall
mortgage interest without the risk of the investment options. I would
also reduce the effect of the higher interest rate in the event that
something did happen to my job. I would continue to contribute to my
current company's 401k for the matched max, as I don't want to abandon
that benefit. I have thought about stopping the current 401k and
applying this money to the debt, but it is such a small amount that it
doesn't seem logical when you factor in the tax deduction.
The debt-free campaigns talk about eliminating your highest-interest
debt and accelerating your payments as bills are paid off. By taking
the distribution, I would essentially do that immediately, with all of
my "free" cash going to pay off the house. While I know that I would
be forfeiting something down the line, it seems that consolidation
loans and other types of "tools" only seem to change the parameters,
but not the debt. The risk of going back into cc debt is mitigated by
having tried to cut back over the past 18 months. Yes, it is a bad
situation, but mathematically, it seems that cutting my losses now
seemed better than trying to pay things off over along period of time.
Is there anything I have not factored into the equation of taking the
distribution other than an estimated 30% tax and 10% penalty on the
gross distribution (other penalties, etc.) ?
Are there other tools should I consider (moving is not an option, as
the lawyer fees, etc., would eat much more than the 10% tax penalty of
the distribution)?
Any other advice would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Chris Hill
I disagree. Better would be to find a way to bring in more income.
The amount you're paying in interest doesn't sound at all like what is
killing you, it's only about $4200 a year; sounds like lack of money
or too much house is what's doing you in. I'm sure it sounded like a
good idea at the time, but the house is hurting you. Before I'd throw
40% of 66k down the crapper I'd stop contributing to the current 401k
and put that money against the debt. The problem with the quick fix
approach is that it often doesn't stay fixed. I can't help but think
$34,000 isn't enough money to be buying a house on, and a variable
mortgage with rates going nowhere but up is a really bad idea.
Bob Parnass
> .... Any other advice would be appreciated.
Have you considered taking in a boarder or two for a while who
would pay you rent?
--
=========================================================================
Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com
Rod Speed
> I am looking to correct the bad situation of being in debt,
That is just plain silly. Debt isnt intrinsically bad.
> which would include gettting rid of mortgage debt.
> It seems that even if I eliminated the credit card debt
> that we have, that mortgage debt is just as bad
Corse it isnt in the interest rate paid alone, let alone the fact
that mortgage debt is normally incurred to purchase an asset
whose value will be increasing, unlike with most credit card debt.
There is a real sense in which mortgage debit is actually
a form of forced saving, stops you pissing your income
against the wall instead of saving that money.
> and if I'm going to take the hit of a 401k distribution,
> I may as well knock down the mortgage as well.
That is even sillier. What matters is what makes the most
financial sense, and that means that you have to end up ahead
by doing it financially, after tax considerations are applied.
> The situation is (approx numbers):
> - $140k bi-weekly mortgage with pmi @ 4.625% with
> a potential rise to 5.625% if I lose my employment.
That isnt the only option if you do lose your employment.
> Last year, pmi cost me $1100.
> I do pay $100/mo additional principal.
Another consideration is that what may make
sense *IF* you lose your employment doesnt
necessarily make any financial sense if you dont.
> - $15k in cc debt (although only a 1/3 has an interest applied and
> the rest is on-schedule to be paid before the 0% intro runs out)
> - no "direct" car payment (car was paid off with a lower interest
> cc that is factored in the $15k cc line). We drive an 8yo and 7yo
> vehicles, each purchased as used and require minimal maintenance.
> - I pay approximately $297/mo in mortgage interest and pmi
> - I pay approximately $1500 to the cc bills which incurs $62/mo
> in interest ($360/mo total in interest to mortgage, pmi and cc's)
> - Last year, my taxable income was $34k, so the
> distribution would probably kick me into the next bracket,
> but I am unsure of how much that effect would be.
> - I am in my mid-30's
That does mean that you arent taking a huge risk in
liquidating the current 401K, but it could end up being
something you regret if for example you end up
seriously injured and cant work again, in the short term.
> The problem is that we are cash poor and $360/mo
> is a lot to be paying in interest, which is why we are
> looking to get out as quickly as possible.
> We are already bulk buying, buy on-sale online, visiting
> garage sales and do not eat out, etc. but without the
> ability to pay all of the bills with cash and live on cash,
> we recognize that we are fighting a losing battle.
That is just plain silly. If you are paying off the
capital, you arent fighting a losing battle at all.
> I have recently changed jobs and have approx. $66k in
> my former 401k plan. I am trying to figure out what my
> distribution would be after-tax, if I took it as a check and/or
> whether or not the hit would be worth it in the long run.
> As I read about the effect of compound interest and
> average rate of return on an investment, the "expected"
> calculation rate seems to be between 8-10%.
That is even sillier.
> However, with the major corporatation legal issues
> (who doens't have their executives on trial right now???),
Plenty dont.
> and other uncertainties in the market, I have a great
> deal of uneasiness with expecting that rate in the future.
More fool you.
> It seems that my investment options by rolling the 401k would be
> to hope for a 10% (let's use this for argument's sake) return over
> the next 30 years, minus taxes at withdrawal of around 15%, which
> would reduce my actual take to 8.5-9%. Or, I could invest in lower
> risk options other than equities and take a lower rate of return.
> Alternatively, I could take the $66k, minus the 10% penalty
> tax ($6,600) and what my regular estimated tax rate would
> be ~30% (estimated tax and would cost ~$19.8k), this
> would leave me approx. $39,600 (66-19.8-6.6 = $39,600).
> What would I do with that money?
> - pay off all cc and cut them up
Mindlessly silly to cut them up.
> - Pay off enough of the mortgage to eliminate pmi
> (roughly $17k needed, although this may be less as
> our property has appreciated since it was bought)
> - any money leftover would go to: 2005 Roth, emergency fund
The main downside with that approach is that you are essentially
financially dependant on the value of the house for your financial
future for quite a while. That may or may not be a bad thing
depending on how well you chose the location of that property
and the prospects on the value of that particular house etc.
The short story is that if you were lucky, you may well end up
well ahead by doing what you propose. If you arent, you could
well end up significantly worse off, particularly if you ease off
on your financial stringency once you dont have much debt.
Or if you are unlucky enough to become unemployable etc.
> The $4300/yr not tied up in interest and pmi, plus the $1500/month
> not going to cc principle (~1800/mo total) would go toward rebuilding
> retirement, a better budget, house repairs, child savings and paying
> off my mortgage early. I am also looking at low-startup cost
> businesses in addition to my salary. This, I believe, would give a
> guaranteed, tax-free 4.625% return on pre-paid mortgage dollars,
> eliminate the pmi and cc interest and significantly dent my overall
> mortgage interest without the risk of the investment options.
> I would also reduce the effect of the higher interest rate in
> the event that something did happen to my job.
The other option is to only go that route if you do lose your job.
> I would continue to contribute to my current company's 401k
> for the matched max, as I don't want to abandon that benefit.
That does make sense. Liquidating the current 401K does
essentially mean that you have essentially binned what you
have collected that way in the past, in the tax penalty.
> I have thought about stopping the current 401k and applying
> this money to the debt, but it is such a small amount that it
> doesn't seem logical when you factor in the tax deduction.
Yes, that wouldnt be a good idea.
> The debt-free campaigns talk about eliminating your highest-interest
> debt and accelerating your payments as bills are paid off. By taking
> the distribution, I would essentially do that immediately, with all of
> my "free" cash going to pay off the house. While I know that I would
> be forfeiting something down the line, it seems that consolidation
> loans and other types of "tools" only seem to change the parameters,
> but not the debt.
Thats just plain wrong. The parameters affect the debt over time.
> The risk of going back into cc debt is mitigated by having tried
> to cut back over the past 18 months. Yes, it is a bad situation,
> but mathematically, it seems that cutting my losses now seemed
> better than trying to pay things off over along period of time.
Bet it would see you piss quite a bit of your income against the wall
on pointless stuff if you did go that route and ended up debt free.
Thats not likely to be a great idea for the future if
you havent chosen the house and its location well.
pooky
Just to be clear on the mortgage, the rate is fixed at 5.625%. The
variable is that I have a discount due to my employer of 1%, which for
the time being makes it 4.625%. If I were to lose my job, it would
increase to 5.625%, but that is the cap. Of course, one of the hard
lessons we learned was that we over-bought...the bank amazingly
approved us for 90k more than what we had bought, which is why I am
almost convinced that outside of a 401k match, that the best investment
is to cut my risk (of the $66k), take the tax hit and cut my interest.
My concern is that there is no guarantee that by the time I reach
retirement, that the rules have not changed and I won't be paying as
much if not more than I am now in taxes when it is withdrawn.
I've almost had it with investments...my broker over the past few years
was as ethical as the many others who are now in class-action suits.
Many corporations are under scrutiny...so one concern is "why am I
putting more money into risk, when I know what I need to do to get out
of current contracts"? I don't know what will happen to the $66k if I
re-invest. I do know what will happen to it if I apply it to my house
and current situation.
The reason for the contribution to the current 401K is that since it is
matched, I am reluctant to give up that benefit and if I were to
convert that to after-tax dollars, I lose the match and ~20% in tax.
The $34k is the taxable income. The gross was significantly more, but
we had some significant deductions this year that brought it down. I
only mentioned it because I need to consider whether the $66k puts my
over a significant tax rate or not.
Yes, the house decision was based on the fact that we bought in a
growing community with great schools and environment. I am in the
process of looking for a new appraisal, which may negate the need for
additional principle to remove PMI. If that's the case, then my
consideration of tapping the 401k changes. I'm basically looking into
my options at this point, and the 401k is one of them...admittedly, not
the best solution.
The issue of reducing expenditures is a concern, however we have been
moving toward a more frugal budget for a little while now. And as
mentioned, the money is not going to go to trival expenditures, but
rather re-invested into a Roth, paying down mortgage and for home
improvement. Our "take home" pay will be the same, but rather than
"lowering our bills," we're looking to just lowering our interest.
I appreciate your response. Thank you.
pooky
bedroom. I will look into that in more detail. We do have a
university nearby with a large out-of-state population.
Thank you.
Rod Speed
> Just to be clear on the mortgage, the rate is fixed at 5.625%. The
> variable is that I have a discount due to my employer of 1%, which for
> the time being makes it 4.625%. If I were to lose my job, it would
> increase to 5.625%, but that is the cap. Of course, one of the hard
> lessons we learned was that we over-bought...the bank amazingly
> approved us for 90k more than what we had bought, which is why
> I am almost convinced that outside of a 401k match, that the best
> investment is to cut my risk (of the $66k), take the tax hit and cut
> my interest. My concern is that there is no guarantee that by the time
> I reach retirement, that the rules have not changed and I won't be paying
> as much if not more than I am now in taxes when it is withdrawn.
> I've almost had it with investments...my broker over the past few
> years was as ethical as the many others who are now in class-action
> suits. Many corporations are under scrutiny...so one concern is "why
> am I putting more money into risk, when I know what I need to do to
> get out of current contracts"? I don't know what will happen to the
> $66k if I re-invest. I do know what will happen to it if I apply it
> to my house and current situation.
You dont actually on how good an investment that particular house will be.
There is a real sense in which you would be putting all your
investments into that one house, at least for the medium term
until your 401K builds up again to a decent value.
> The reason for the contribution to the current 401K is that since it
> is matched, I am reluctant to give up that benefit and if I were to
> convert that to after-tax dollars, I lose the match and ~20% in tax.
> The $34k is the taxable income. The gross was significantly more,
> but we had some significant deductions this year that brought it down.
> I only mentioned it because I need to consider whether the $66k
> puts my over a significant tax rate or not.
> Yes, the house decision was based on the fact that we bought
> in a growing community with great schools and environment.
> I am in the process of looking for a new appraisal, which may
> negate the need for additional principle to remove PMI. If that's
> the case, then my consideration of tapping the 401k changes.
> I'm basically looking into my options at this point, and the 401k
> is one of them...admittedly, not the best solution.
Yes, it does increase your risk considerably if you go that route.
> The issue of reducing expenditures is a concern, however we have
> been moving toward a more frugal budget for a little while now. And
> as mentioned, the money is not going to go to trival expenditures, but
> rather re-invested into a Roth, paying down mortgage and for home
> improvement. Our "take home" pay will be the same, but rather
> than "lowering our bills," we're looking to just lowering our interest.
Thats fine if you dont surcome to the more relaxed financial
situation you would be in to easy off of the financial stringency
involved in reducing your expenditures. Not possible for us to
say anything useful on that and not easy for you to either.
John Weiss
appear to be desperate yet, and you can shift your payments around a bit
(e.g., that $100/month going to mortgage principal) to get rid of the credit
card debt faster.
You'll kick yourself later if you raid your retirement now.
"pooky" <pookyp...@yahoo.com> wrote...
John Weiss
right now?!? That's a bit insane!
If you don't like where the 401k $$ are now, roll them over into a place you
are more comfortable with, without taking out any of the money.
"pooky" <pookyp...@yahoo.com> wrote...
Chris Hill
>Chris,
>Just to be clear on the mortgage, the rate is fixed at 5.625%. The
>variable is that I have a discount due to my employer of 1%, which for
>the time being makes it 4.625%. If I were to lose my job, it would
>increase to 5.625%, but that is the cap. Of course, one of the hard
>lessons we learned was that we over-bought...the bank amazingly
>approved us for 90k more than what we had bought, which is why I am
>almost convinced that outside of a 401k match, that the best investment
>is to cut my risk (of the $66k), take the tax hit and cut my interest.
>My concern is that there is no guarantee that by the time I reach
>retirement, that the rules have not changed and I won't be paying as
>much if not more than I am now in taxes when it is withdrawn.
Forget about that. There are way too many people with 401k's who'd
send congress packing if they tried it. Paying $100 a month extra on
your mortgage when you have cc debt is your first bad idea. Put that
money against the cc, a 4.625 mortgage is a very good deal and you
want to ride that train as long as it'll roll. Take the 401k and roll
it into a good low-cost mutual fund family, index funds aren't sexy
but they are definitely cheap. Remember: nobody is going to give you
a scholarship to retire on. Stocks sound risky, but inflation is more
risky, and with interest rates and comodity prices rising, it is a lot
more likely than another stock meltdown. Possible inflation is
naother good reason to keep the mortgage; your pay increases and your
payments don't.
Lee K
"pooky" <pookyp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123380267.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hello,
> I am looking to correct the bad situation of being in debt, which would
> include gettting rid of mortgage debt. >
> - I pay approximately $1500 to the cc bills which incurs $62/mo in
> interest ($360/mo total in interest to mortgage, pmi and cc's).
>$15k in cc debt (although only a 1/3 has an interest applied and the
>rest is on-schedule to be paid before the 0% intro runs out)
>
>
> Alternatively, I could take the $66k, minus the 10% penalty tax
> ($6,600) and what my regular estimated tax rate would be ~30%
> (estimated tax and would cost ~$19.8k), this would leave me approx.
> $39,600 (66-19.8-6.6 = $39,600).
>
Let's see, you want to take an immediate hit to your financials of $26,000
(19.8+6.6) to avoid paying $62/month in short term interest payments? You
say you're paying $1500 to pay off the CC debt, which is on schedule to be
paid off imminently. You also want to pay down the mortgage which costs
about another $300/month in interest. I see no reason at all to touch that
401(k), at least in the form of a lump sum (more on this later). When you
pay off your ccs in the near future, you then have that $1500 to apply to
your mortgage principal, which drives down that monthly interest pretty
quickly. In times of a need for cash, you can skip that extra mortgage
payment to cover that short term need/want.
As for the 401(k), there's a little known provision in the law (Internal
Revenue Service Code Section 72(t)(2)(a)(iv)) that allows for something
called Substantially Equal Periodic Payments (SEPP) which allows for
withdrawals from your 401(k) AT ANY AGE without the early withdrawal
penalty. Once you start withdrawing, you must continue for at least 5
years, or until age 59 1/2, whichever comes last. In your case, being in
your mid 30s, you get the flexibility of making withdrawals for 5 years, and
then stopping if your situation has improved. (Note, however, that if you do
stop after five years, you'll owe a 10% penalty on all the money you've
withdrawn to date, but this is substantially less that 10% of your full
balance right now (less than 1/10, as you'll see)). Your money runs off your
balance essentially like a mortgage in that you can get a level stream of
monthly payments that zeroes out your money after a set number of years. I
plugged in your $66,000 at an assumed interest rate of 6% for an assumed
life expectancy of 45 years (you'd need to go to the IRS site to get what
they'd use) and came up with about a $354/month yield to you (taxable at
your marginal rate). So, to pay down your mortgage, you could tap into the
401(k) for 5 years, apply the extra $1500 freed up from your ccs pay off,
and still have a considerable 401(k) balance at the end. If you stopped
after five years you'd owe the 10% IRS penalty of about $2,000 ($354 x 12
x5) plus some interest unique in each case. Here are some sites to review,
if you find this option of interest:
http://www.ricedelman.com/planning/retirement/tappinginto401k.asp
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/02/112602.asp
http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/wdraw59.html
IRS sites:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rr-02-62.pdf (Note: Adobe)
http://www.irs.gov/retirement/article/0,,id=103045,00.html (FAQs)
You'll probably need the advice of a tax professional, but please try to
keep as much of your 401(k) intact as possible.
Lou
> I am looking to correct the bad situation of being in debt, which would
> include gettting rid of mortgage debt. It seems that even if I
> eliminated the credit card debt that we have, that mortgage debt is
> just as bad and if I'm going to take the hit of a 401k distribution, I
> may as well knock down the mortgage as well.
>
> The situation is (approx numbers):
> - $140k bi-weekly mortgage with pmi @ 4.625% with a potential rise to
> 5.625% if I lose my employment. Last year, pmi cost me $1100. I do
> pay $100/mo additional principal.
You're kidding, right? Payments of $140 biweekly work out to $303/month.
Where are you going to find housing for less than that? An early withdrawal
on a 401k is subject to a 10% penalty right off the top, plus it can pop you
up into a higher tax bracket. Why you'd think it made any sense at all to
trade in a 4%-5% mortgage for a 10%-plus tax penalty is beyond me - the
early withdrawal will cost you at least double the mortgage interest. This
is no way to save money, either in the short or long term.
> - $15k in cc debt (although only a 1/3 has an interest applied and the
> rest is on-schedule to be paid before the 0% intro runs out)
Then you have, for planning purposes, only $5,000 on credit cards that you
have to worry about, the rest is an interest free loan of $10,000. Zero
percent introductory periods are typically short - 6 months isn't uncommon,
although I've seen (and taken advantage of) periods of a year or two. At
any rate, if you're paying this off quickly enough so that you don't expect
to end up paying any interest on the $10,000, I expect the payments are
fairly hefty, and this item is what causing most of your "pinch". But
because it's short term, once you've paid off this amount, you'll free up a
lot of cash. And again, trading in a zero percent loan for a more than 10%
tax penalty isn't reasonable. If the payments are really more than you can
afford, cut back and end up paying interest on the balance remaining at the
end of the zero percent period. Unless the rate is something ungodly high,
the total you pay will still be less than the extra taxes due to an early
401k distribution.
> - no "direct" car payment (car was paid off with a lower interest cc
> that is factored in the $15k cc line). We drive an 8yo and 7yo
> vehicles, each purchased as used and require minimal maintenance.
>
If you don't have a car payment, then you don't have a car payment, and this
item isn't information, it's just noise. If you think the cars are good for
several more years, fine. If you think the end is in sight for one or both,
then you should take that into consideration for planning.
> - I pay approximately $297/mo in mortgage interest and pmi
Yes, you already told us that.
> - I pay approximately $1500 to the cc bills which incurs $62/mo in
> interest ($360/mo total in interest to mortgage, pmi and cc's)
You have $15,000 outstanding on credit cards and pay $62/month in interest.
You've already told us that $10,000 of that money is at zero percent, so on
the $5,000 the interest looks to be somewhere between 1% and 2% a month,
probably an annual rate of around 15%. Arithmetically, it looks like an
early distribution to pay off that $5,000 might be worthwhile, but you'd pay
that penalty and additional tax on the whole amount, while the 15% is on a
declining balance, so I doubt you'd save enough overall to notice. Besides,
at the rate your paying this stuff off, you'll be done in less than a year.
> - Last year, my taxable income was $34k, so the distribution would
> probably kick me into the next bracket, but I am unsure of how much
> that effect would be.
Most financial planning starts with gross income, not taxable.
> - I am in my mid-30's
>
> The problem is that we are cash poor and $360/mo is a lot to be paying
> in interest, which is why we are looking to get out as quickly as
> possible.
If you're trying to be sensible, you should be trying to get out as cheaply
as possible, not as quickly as possible. The two are often related, but
they are not the same thing. You don't say what the remaining balance is on
the mortgage, but it seems that you have over $150,000 of outstanding debt
and it's costing you $360/month. Not excellent, but not bad either.
> We are already bulk buying, buy on-sale online, visiting
> garage sales and do not eat out, etc. but without the ability to pay
> all of the bills with cash and live on cash, we recognize that we are
> fighting a losing battle.
If you're spending more on necessities than you're taking in, that's one
thing. If you're just spending more than you're taking in, that's another.
In the first case, the sound strategy is to pay as you go for all current
purchases and use the leftover to pay as much on the debt as you can each
month until it's paid off. In the second case, the sound strategy is to
stop it.
> I have recently changed jobs and have approx. $66k in my former 401k
> plan. I am trying to figure out what my distribution would be
> after-tax, if I took it as a check and/or whether or not the hit would
> be worth it in the long run.
In the long run, almost certainly not. The plan administrator should be
able to tell you your distribution, but if you can't figure it out yourself
you need the services of a tax accountant. Of course, that's another bill.
> As I read about the effect of compound interest and average rate of
> return on an investment, the "expected" calculation rate seems to be
> between 8-10%. However, with the major corporatation legal issues (who
> doens't have their executives on trial right now???), and other
> uncertainties in the market, I have a great deal of uneasiness with
> expecting that rate in the future.
Maybe yes, maybe no. If you don't trust the statistics, rollover the money
into a guaranteed return investiment - certificates of deposit or the like.
It doesn't pay much, but you won't lose anything either.
> It seems that my investment options by rolling the 401k would be to
> hope for a 10% (let's use this for argument's sake) return over the
> next 30 years, minus taxes at withdrawal of around 15%, which would
> reduce my actual take to 8.5-9%. Or, I could invest in lower risk
> options other than equities and take a lower rate of return.
>
> Alternatively, I could take the $66k, minus the 10% penalty tax
> ($6,600) and what my regular estimated tax rate would be ~30%
> (estimated tax and would cost ~$19.8k), this would leave me approx.
> $39,600 (66-19.8-6.6 = $39,600).
So you're worried about paying interest at five or six percent, and think
paying taxes at 40% or more might be a way out? You're trolling, right?
> What would I do with that money?
>
> - pay off all cc and cut them up
It doesn't cost you a thing to cut them up, paid off or not. At least if
you cut them up you can't use them at whim in the store. Of course, you
don't need the physical card to shop online, just the account number. Stop
shopping online.
> - Pay off enough of the mortgage to eliminate pmi (roughly $17k needed,
> although this may be less as our property has appreciated since it was
> bought)
It may be zero since the property has appreciated since you bought it. You
don't know unless you check. And if you recently have and that's where you
got the $17k figure, with real estate prices the way they've been, it may be
zero if you wait a year. In any case, it''ll cost you around $28k (the $17k
plus the penalties and taxes) to save $1100/month. It'll take 25 YEARS to
break even on that deal, and that's only if you'd end up paying PMI for the
whole time, which you won't. You'll NEVER save enough on PMI to make this
worthwhile.
> - any money leftover would go to: 2005 Roth, emergency fund
Roth investments are no safer or riskier than normal 401k investments. If
one of your incentives for doing this is the legal status of the companies
underlying your 401k investments, switching the money to a Roth isn't going
to change that one bit.
I intended to go on with the rest of the post, but this is just too long.
You can't be serious. If you are, I urge you to seek professional financial
help.
pooky
John Weiss wrote:
> You're wary of investments, but you're willing to take a guaranteed 40% loss
> right now?!? That's a bit insane!
>
> If you don't like where the 401k $$ are now, roll them over into a place you
> are more comfortable with, without taking out any of the money.
>
John,
Is it a 40% "loss"? I'm still going to pay tax on it at some point and
there's simply no guarantee that it will be there in the long run.
And yes, I'm wary of investments...I know that there is an ebb and flow
to the market, but there's also a shady side that is evident within the
brokerage houses, companies and exchanges engaged in fines/lawsuits and
questionable practices. I'm not anti-investment, but I don't have a
great comfort with the system at this time.
But I do appreciate your response. As I mentioned in another thread,
I'm looking at options and while using my 401k is not the best (I agree
on that), it is one option. Nothing has been signed yet.
Thank you.
pooky
Lou wrote:
> You're kidding, right? Payments of $140 biweekly work out to $303/month.
> Where are you going to find housing for less than that?
The original stated that the mortgage amount (remaining, if I wasn't
clear) was $140k. It is a bi-weekly mortgage, so the payments with all
the other things factored in is ~1300/wk which includes the addt'l
$100/mo on principal.
> An early withdrawal
> on a 401k is subject to a 10% penalty right off the top, plus it can pop you
> up into a higher tax bracket. Why you'd think it made any sense at all to
> trade in a 4%-5% mortgage for a 10%-plus tax penalty is beyond me - the
> early withdrawal will cost you at least double the mortgage interest. This
> is no way to save money, either in the short or long term.
I think that my original thought was that it would get rid of the PMI,
which is of no use to us and will cost us each year. By taking the
$6,600 penalty now, I would eliminate the $1100/year until the PMI is
dropped 8 years from now (although hopefully earlier with property
appreciation). I was looking at it from the standpoint of $8800 in PMI
out the window or $6600 in tax penalty now.
> Then you have, for planning purposes, only $5,000 on credit cards that you
> have to worry about, the rest is an interest free loan of $10,000. Zero
> percent introductory periods are typically short - 6 months isn't uncommon,
> although I've seen (and taken advantage of) periods of a year or two.
The 0% that we have...one runs out this month and another runs out in
May of 2006, for which we have budgeted the amount to zero this out by
that time.
> At
> any rate, if you're paying this off quickly enough so that you don't expect
> to end up paying any interest on the $10,000, I expect the payments are
> fairly hefty, and this item is what causing most of your "pinch".
Yes, you are correct. It is the cause of the pinch right now.
> >
> If you don't have a car payment, then you don't have a car payment, and this
> item isn't information, it's just noise. If you think the cars are good for
> several more years, fine. If you think the end is in sight for one or both,
> then you should take that into consideration for planning.
I believe these to be good for a few more years. Another issue we have
is that our family is new and we sort of view it like a start-up
company with a lot of one-time, up-front costs. The whole reason the
topic to go after interest debt was raised was to see whether "getting
out of debt" short term would make more sense than over the long haul,
given the uncertainty of the long haul (perspective based on the
experience that rarely are you in the place you believed yourself to be
five years ahead of time, at least in my life). As with the concept
that the market returns 10% each year, I would hope that I would have a
better paying job in the future that would allow me to make up the mere
$66k ("mere" in the sense that it is a large sum to me today, but not
very large compared to what one would hope for as a complete retirement
resource).
Back to the cars - the reason I am optimistic is that we have invested
in a mechanics' class to learn basic skills to curtail going to the
shop. The class will be paid for within 3 labor hours that we would
normally pay a mechanic for repairs...and would give us a basic
education for those instances when we do need a mechanic.
>
> > - I pay approximately $297/mo in mortgage interest and pmi
>
> Yes, you already told us that.
>
> > - I pay approximately $1500 to the cc bills which incurs $62/mo in
> > interest ($360/mo total in interest to mortgage, pmi and cc's)
>
> Besides,
> at the rate your paying this stuff off, you'll be done in less than a year.
>
Optimistically, one year. However, with some unknown medical factors
and other things, we'd be happy with one year, satisfied with anything
less than two.
> If you're trying to be sensible, you should be trying to get out as cheaply
> as possible, not as quickly as possible. The two are often related, but
> they are not the same thing. You don't say what the remaining balance is on
> the mortgage, but it seems that you have over $150,000 of outstanding debt
> and it's costing you $360/month. Not excellent, but not bad either.
>
> If you're spending more on necessities than you're taking in, that's one
> thing. If you're just spending more than you're taking in, that's another.
> In the first case, the sound strategy is to pay as you go for all current
> purchases and use the leftover to pay as much on the debt as you can each
> month until it's paid off. In the second case, the sound strategy is to
> stop it.
>
We have curtailed almost every instance of unnecessary spending that we
can and have looked for tax advantages in areas that we cannot. For
example, I need internet (VPN) access for work, but work does not pay
for that service. Up until a few years ago, I wasn't aware that I
could write off a percentage of my access fees. We have definitely cut
back on other things deemed unimportant and detail every purchase for
necessity, function, quality and value...it drives my wife nuts, but
she's getting excited about it.
>
> So you're worried about paying interest at five or six percent, and think
> paying taxes at 40% or more might be a way out? You're trolling, right?
>
No, it's a "pay me now/pay me later" type of situation. If the house
is paid off in 10 years and there's no other debt, then all of that can
go into the retirement. Or, I would be putting money on whether or not
the investments pan out.
> It doesn't cost you a thing to cut them up, paid off or not. At least if
> you cut them up you can't use them at whim in the store. Of course, you
> don't need the physical card to shop online, just the account number. Stop
> shopping online.
>
We've cut out the whim shopping. But we cannot cut up the last cc
because we have had to use it (poor cash flow). As for online
shopping, that is the primary method for which we shop because we've
found prices to be much better than the local stores (even with
shipping involved). For example, we replaced our lightbulbs with
flourescents. At the time, we were looking at $4-5/bulb locally.
Online, I bought bulk for less than $1 per bulb (with shipping) and
then sold the excess to my friends/family for cost. The electric bill
dropped 25%-30% per month and we made our money back in two months.
Our friends/family got a deal as well.
> It may be zero since the property has appreciated since you bought it. You
> don't know unless you check. And if you recently have and that's where you
> got the $17k figure, with real estate prices the way they've been, it may be
> zero if you wait a year.
Coincidently, I just got an offer in the mail for a free market eval of
our home so I will have a better idea in a few days. Comparatively
speaking, the house down the road sold for $10k more than what we
bought ours for a few years ago and that house was 60% smaller on a
smaller lot, so we're hopeful.
> Roth investments are no safer or riskier than normal 401k investments. If
> one of your incentives for doing this is the legal status of the companies
> underlying your 401k investments, switching the money to a Roth isn't going
> to change that one bit.
Agreed. I am on the fence on this issue...some days, I'm for
investments, others, I'm not.
>
> I intended to go on with the rest of the post, but this is just too long.
> You can't be serious. If you are, I urge you to seek professional financial
> help.
I appreciate your response.
Thank you
Victor Smith
>
>John Weiss wrote:
>> You're wary of investments, but you're willing to take a guaranteed 40% loss
>> right now?!? That's a bit insane!
>>
>> If you don't like where the 401k $$ are now, roll them over into a place you
>> are more comfortable with, without taking out any of the money.
>>
>
>John,
>Is it a 40% "loss"? I'm still going to pay tax on it at some point and
>there's simply no guarantee that it will be there in the long run.
>
>And yes, I'm wary of investments...I know that there is an ebb and flow
>to the market, but there's also a shady side that is evident within the
>brokerage houses, companies and exchanges engaged in fines/lawsuits and
>questionable practices. I'm not anti-investment, but I don't have a
>great comfort with the system at this time.
>
You can roll it over into an FDIC insured CD IRA account.
It will be there. If it isn't, money stored under the mattress will
also be worthless.
The penalties you would take in a distribution to pay off low-interest
debt is a loser, not to mention that even now CD's can get you 4%.
Check out your state laws about PMI now.
You may have to pay for an appraisal.
Concentrate on the PMI and CC debt, whichever is costing you the most.
Good luck.
--Vic
barbie gee
On Sun, 7 Aug 2005, pooky wrote:
> Lou - Just a few points to comment on/clarify...
>
> Lou wrote:
>> You're kidding, right? Payments of $140 biweekly work out to $303/month.
>> Where are you going to find housing for less than that?
>
> The original stated that the mortgage amount (remaining, if I wasn't
> clear) was $140k. It is a bi-weekly mortgage, so the payments with all
> the other things factored in is ~1300/wk which includes the addt'l
> $100/mo on principal.
did you mean $1300/MONTH?
or is that bi-weekly, and you're paying $2600/month on a $140k loan?
what's the term on this mortgage again?
You'd be better off reducing the added principal to $75 or $50 a month,
and put that towards something else.
Lou
> Lou - Just a few points to comment on/clarify...
> We have curtailed almost every instance of unnecessary spending that we
> can and have looked for tax advantages in areas that we cannot. For
> example, I need internet (VPN) access for work, but work does not pay
> for that service.
Er, you must have it, or it's convenient to have it? Both my wife and I use
VPN access for work, and our companies don't pay for it. But the company
doesn't require it - we use it for our own convenience.
> We've cut out the whim shopping. But we cannot cut up the last cc
> because we have had to use it (poor cash flow).
It sounds not so much like poor cash flow as poor planning and incomplete
consideration of alternatives. I'd be surprised if almost everyone doesn't
use a credit card as a cushion at some point. But on months you fall short
and use the card, you're paying extra on a cheap mortgage, and aggresively
paying down some zero percent loans. In other words, you're trading cheap
money for expensive money. And now you're considering using even more
expensive money from the 401k to pay it off.
It would make more sense to not make the extra $100 payment, or miss the
extra on the zero percent loans. Yeah, I know - the mortgage won't be paid
off as quick, and you'll end up owing something on the zero percenters. But
overall, you'd come out ahead.
> As for online
> shopping, that is the primary method for which we shop because we've
> found prices to be much better than the local stores (even with
> shipping involved). For example, we replaced our lightbulbs with
> flourescents. At the time, we were looking at $4-5/bulb locally.
> Online, I bought bulk for less than $1 per bulb (with shipping) and
> then sold the excess to my friends/family for cost. The electric bill
> dropped 25%-30% per month and we made our money back in two months.
> Our friends/family got a deal as well.
Cool. But that's only one item. I also question the friends/family bit - I
have never bought anything from one of my brothers, or my in-laws, and my
suspicion would be that if these people really wanted to use flourescents
they would have already had them. Maybe your family is different.
In any case, maybe you overpaid. My Dad, for instance, called the electric
company to come out and do a free energy audit. Among other things, he got
a passel of those lamps for free. And he didn't have to hassle his friends
and family.
Either way, since you've made your money back, that portion of the credit
card bill is paid off. And buying this stuff is no reason to touch your k.
pooky
barbie gee wrote:
> > The original stated that the mortgage amount (remaining, if I wasn't
> > clear) was $140k. It is a bi-weekly mortgage, so the payments with all
> > the other things factored in is ~1300/wk which includes the addt'l
> > $100/mo on principal.
>
> did you mean $1300/MONTH?
>
Barbie,
Sorry, my correction was incorrect...~650/bi-week or ~1300 per month.
> or is that bi-weekly, and you're paying $2600/month on a $140k loan?
>
> what's the term on this mortgage again?
>
The interest is 5.625% with a 1% discount based on employment. The
remaining balance is ~$140k.
pooky
"Er, you must have it, or it's convenient to have it? Both my wife and
I use
VPN access for work, and our companies don't pay for it. But the
company
doesn't require it - we use it for our own convenience. "
I guess I could split hairs here. I am on-call for periods of time and
have to do a lot of off-hours work in IT. Technically, I could go
without internet access. But realistically, it would cost me probably
~4hrs/wk in travel to/from the office when I am on call. Is it
convenient, yes...is it worth $29.95/mo with a percentage written off
when I'm called at 3:45am on consecutive mornings? I admit that I
would not want to be traveling to work at that time, so yes.
"Cool. But that's only one item. I also question the friends/family
bit - I
have never bought anything from one of my brothers, or my in-laws, and
my
suspicion would be that if these people really wanted to use
flourescents
they would have already had them. Maybe your family is different."
Well, that is a valid question/comment. My original plan with the
bulbs was to buy in bulk and then resell the leftovers on eBay or
something. However, when I mentioned them to others, I got similar
replies of "yes, I was going to buy some but they're too expensive in
the store" and they took me up on the offer. I offered them at my
cost...it wasn't so much a solicitation as much as a case of "I have
these extras that you can have for cost, if you don't want them, then
I'll find another way to get rid of them." Now, I understand where you
are coming from...I wouldn't buy some things from my in-laws because
some would try to exploit the "family" relationship. In my case, I
gave them the item at my cost and they could take it or leave
it...which is why I'm not exactly a great "business" person.
"In any case, maybe you overpaid. My Dad, for instance, called the
electric
company to come out and do a free energy audit. Among other things, he
got
a passel of those lamps for free. And he didn't have to hassle his
friends
and family. "
Overpaid for...the lights? Prior to any work, I called our electic and
gas companies and were told that they do not do free audits anymore.
They suggested calling local companies, which incidently, I found to be
rather odd...some would do an audit for free, some would charge $100
that would be applied to any service requested and state that it was a
"law," etc. I had an energy audit and received quotes that ranged from
$x to $5x. Although, the company that had the 5x quote did offer 12
lights for free. I track all energy expenses and know that, for
example, last year our gas consumption dropped 30% after adding
insulation and even with consideration to heating degree days. Our
payback is <3yrs and quicker if gas prices go back to the original
levels of a few years ago.. I also evaluated appliances and other
methods to cut costs with more efficient appliances.
Maybe I'm going overboard with the concept, but I appreciate your input
so that we can make an informed decision (which is what the forums are
for, right?).
Thank you.
rick++
>Revenue Service Code Section 72(t)(2)(a)(iv)) that allows for something
>called Substantially Equal Periodic Payments (SEPP) which allows for
>withdrawals from your 401(k) AT ANY AGE
But that have to be on a life-expectancy schedule. That may only be
2-3% a year for someone in their 40s.
Lee K
"rick++" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123512679.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
That's about right, but read the whole post: I'm suggesting only a short
term withdrawal period to maintain as much of his 401(k) as possible,
assuming he's definitely going to tap into it.
neilnew...@hotmail.com
(snip)
> I disagree. Better would be to find a way to bring in more income.
Agree. BTW, to reduce debt and bring in more cash, I've taken a 2nd job
myself and wife has started a business. However, I'll add that making
more money doesn't solve everything; there are many people with high
incomes who are in terrible financial shape and only living from one
paycheck to the next. It's most important to know how to handle money.
> The amount you're paying in interest doesn't sound at all like what is
> killing you, it's only about $4200 a year; sounds like lack of money
> or too much house is what's doing you in. I'm sure it sounded like a
> good idea at the time, but the house is hurting you. Before I'd throw
> 40% of 66k down the crapper I'd stop contributing to the current 401k
> and put that money against the debt. The problem with the quick fix
> approach is that it often doesn't stay fixed.
Agree.
I suggest that whatever you do, don't touch the 401(k) money you've
already saved. If you take it now, you'll pay a huge penalty. Also,
you'll need to replace that money eventually because you'll need money
for your retirement. To do that, you'll need to replace the $66k and
you'll need to make up all the interest and earnings too.
Overall, I suggest you hire an accountant or a personal financial
planner to help you straighten things out, give you a plan and
priorities for handling your money and paying your debts, and tell you
what to do.
The person you work with can also look at your whole financial picture
and tell you the tax consequences of what you do. For example, there
are tax benefits to 401(k) plans and mortgage interest that you might
need.
(snip)
pooky
I have decided against tapping my 401k for the debt reduction. I
realize that I was looking at a quick solution to a long term problem
that would cost us much more in the long run.
Thank you for your insight.
neilnew...@hotmail.com
pooky wrote:
> barbie gee wrote:
> > > The original stated that the mortgage amount (remaining, if I wasn't
> > > clear) was $140k. It is a bi-weekly mortgage, so the payments with all
> > > the other things factored in is ~1300/wk which includes the addt'l
> > > $100/mo on principal.
> >
> > did you mean $1300/MONTH?
> >
>
> Barbie,
> Sorry, my correction was incorrect...~650/bi-week or ~1300 per month.
>
> > or is that bi-weekly, and you're paying $2600/month on a $140k loan?
> >
> > what's the term on this mortgage again?
In years?
> The interest is 5.625% with a 1% discount based on employment. The
> remaining balance is ~$140k.
How many years does the mortgage last? How many more years to go?
$1,200/month sounds high for a 5.625% mortgage for $140,000. If you
want to lower your mortgage payment, maybe you could refinance to a
mortgage with a longer term?
For example, if your mortgage is for 20 years, you could refinance to
30 years. In the long run, the mortgage would cost more, but the good
news is that you'd have lower monthly payments.
gggg...@gmail.com
John Weiss
Hello,
I am looking to correct the bad situation of being in debt, which would
include gettting rid of mortgage debt. It seems that even if I
eliminated the credit card debt that we have, that mortgage debt is
just as bad and if I'm going to take the hit of a 401k distribution, I
may as well knock down the mortgage as well.
- I pay approximately $1500 to the cc bills which incurs $62/mo in
interest ($360/mo total in interest to mortgage, pmi and cc's)
- Last year, my taxable income was $34k, so the distribution would
probably kick me into the next bracket, but I am unsure of how much
that effect would be.
- I am in my mid-30's
plan.
($6,600) and what my regular estimated tax rate would be ~30%
(estimated tax and would cost ~$19.8k), this would leave me approx.
$39,600 (66-19.8-6.6 = $39,600).
You say you would rebuild your retirement, among other things.
Unfortunately, "life happens", and many people in your situation never
accomplish what they think looks so simple on paper. How long do you
think it will take to rebuild that $66K? You will just be that much
farther down the road, in the same situation.
If you think you can 'cut up your credit cards' after paying them off,
you can stop using them NOW! Lock them in a safe and pay cash for
everything. If you can't do it now, you won't do it afterwards.
Instead of paying extra on your mortgage principal every month, use it
to pay off the interest-bearing credit card, then the other credit card
when interest starts. If you continue paying $1600/month and don't use
them, you'll be paid off in less than a year.
ItsJoan NotJoann
> On Saturday, August 6, 2005 at 7:04:27 PM UTC-7, pooky wrote:
> Hello,
> I am looking to correct the bad situation of being in debt, which would
> include gettting rid of mortgage debt. It seems that even if I
> eliminated the credit card debt that we have, that mortgage debt is
> just as bad and if I'm going to take the hit of a 401k distribution, I
> may as well knock down the mortgage as well.
>
> - I pay approximately $297/mo in mortgage interest and pmi
>
> - I pay approximately $1500 to the cc bills which incurs $62/mo in
> interest ($360/mo total in interest to mortgage, pmi and cc's)
>
> - Last year, my taxable income was $34k, so the distribution would
> probably kick me into the next bracket, but I am unsure of how much
> that effect would be.
>
> - I am in my mid-30's
>
> I have recently changed jobs and have approx. $66k in my former 401k
> plan.
>
> Alternatively, I could take the $66k, minus the 10% penalty tax
> ($6,600) and what my regular estimated tax rate would be ~30%
> (estimated tax and would cost ~$19.8k), this would leave me approx.
> $39,600 (66-19.8-6.6 = $39,600).
>
>
> DO NOT raid your 401k unless you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO!
>
A U G U S T 0 6, 2 0 0 5. I'm pretty sure this 'pooky' person has
already made their decision to do whatever they wanted 14+ years ago.
ItsJoan NotJoann
>
> On Saturday,
→ → → → → → → → → → August 6, 2005 ← ← ← ← ← ← ← ← ← ←
at 7:04:27 PM UTC-7, pooky wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> > I am looking to correct the bad situation of being in debt, which would
> > include gettting rid of mortgage debt.
>
>
1. Look at dates you're throwing up sites you've gleaned from the internet.
2. Learn to trim your posts instead of quoting reams of text.
3. Good grief.
gggg...@gmail.com
> Hello,
> I am looking to correct the bad situation of being in debt, which would
> eliminated the credit card debt that we have, that mortgage debt is
> just as bad and if I'm going to take the hit of a 401k distribution, I
> may as well knock down the mortgage as well.
>
> - $140k bi-weekly mortgage with pmi @ 4.625% with a potential rise to
> 5.625% if I lose my employment. Last year, pmi cost me $1100. I do
> pay $100/mo additional principal.
>
> - $15k in cc debt (although only a 1/3 has an interest applied and the
> rest is on-schedule to be paid before the 0% intro runs out)
>
> - no "direct" car payment (car was paid off with a lower interest cc
> that is factored in the $15k cc line). We drive an 8yo and 7yo
> vehicles, each purchased as used and require minimal maintenance.
>
>
> - I pay approximately $1500 to the cc bills which incurs $62/mo in
> interest ($360/mo total in interest to mortgage, pmi and cc's)
>
> - Last year, my taxable income was $34k, so the distribution would
> probably kick me into the next bracket, but I am unsure of how much
> that effect would be.
>
> - I am in my mid-30's
>
> in interest, which is why we are looking to get out as quickly as
> possible. We are already bulk buying, buy on-sale online, visiting
> garage sales and do not eat out, etc. but without the ability to pay
> all of the bills with cash and live on cash, we recognize that we are
> fighting a losing battle.
>
> after-tax, if I took it as a check and/or whether or not the hit would
> be worth it in the long run.
>
> As I read about the effect of compound interest and average rate of
> return on an investment, the "expected" calculation rate seems to be
> between 8-10%. However, with the major corporatation legal issues (who
> doens't have their executives on trial right now???), and other
> uncertainties in the market, I have a great deal of uneasiness with
> expecting that rate in the future.
>
> It seems that my investment options by rolling the 401k would be to
> hope for a 10% (let's use this for argument's sake) return over the
> next 30 years, minus taxes at withdrawal of around 15%, which would
> reduce my actual take to 8.5-9%. Or, I could invest in lower risk
> options other than equities and take a lower rate of return.
>
> ($6,600) and what my regular estimated tax rate would be ~30%
> (estimated tax and would cost ~$19.8k), this would leave me approx.
> $39,600 (66-19.8-6.6 = $39,600).
>
ItsJoan NotJoann
>
> → → → → → → → → → → August 6, 2005 ← ← ← ← ← ← ← ← ← ← at 7:04:27 PM
> UTC-7, pooky wrote:
gggg...@gmail.com
gggg gggg
gggg gggg
"RED FLAG: Americans Draining 401ks | Counter Points"