Computer crash
jmh...@yahoo.com
have crashed. I was browsing the local newspaper on line and tried to
go back to the previous page, and it froze. Cont/alt/delete would not
bring up the running processes menu. I shut it off for a while and
turned it back on. It started normally, then went to just a cursor on
a black screen. I can't even get it to boot from safe mode. Does
this sound like a hardware problem? I'm very careful about not
getting viruses. This computer is only 14 mo. old, although that
really doesn't make any difference, does it? Any suggestions?
Marsha/Ohio (not real computer savvy)
Rod Speed
> I'm posting from Google on a laptop, as my regular computer seems
> to have crashed. I was browsing the local newspaper on line and tried
> to go back to the previous page, and it froze. Cont/alt/delete would not
> bring up the running processes menu. I shut it off for a while and
> turned it back on. It started normally, then went to just a cursor on
> a black screen. I can't even get it to boot from safe mode. Does
> this sound like a hardware problem?
Yes, but that isnt the only possibility.
> I'm very careful about not getting viruses.
Its not the sort of symptom thats very common with a virus.
> This computer is only 14 mo. old, although that
> really doesn't make any difference, does it?
It does make some difference, but you can still get hardware failures that early.
> Any suggestions?
If its still under warranty, get it fixed under warranty.
> Marsha/Ohio (not real computer savvy)
If its not under warranty, you had better get someone who is to have a look at it.
Dave
<jmh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:43b5fb5f-be06-49cc...@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
OK, we need a lot more information to help you. First, what type of
computer is it? Exact make and model number. If custom built, we need
exact make and model number of motherboard and power supply. What operating
system is it running? How, exactly, do you connect to the Internet?
Dial-up modem? Cable modem? DSL? If you have a high speed Internet
connection, how, EXACTLY is that Internet connection attached to your
computer? Is it Ethernet cable? USB? Wireless? Does it connect directly
to a cable modem / dsl modem, or does it run through a router?
More importantly... we need to know after it was shut off for a while and
you turned it back on, what do you mean by "it started normall"? Did you
get to Windows? Were you able to log into windows? Did windows start at
all, or did you just see BIOS splash screens (hard drives listed, memory
tested), and then go straight to a cursor on a black screen? When you got
the cursor on the black screen, where was it? Lower left? Upper Left?
What did it look like? Square? Bar? Did you try to type anything at the
cursor?
Way too vague of a description to even start to guess, but from what little
you provided, I'd say it's some kind of hardware problem. Need more
information to narrow it down further:
1) Shut down and unplug your computer (from the wall)
2) Unplug your Internet connection from the back of the computer. I don't
care whether it is a normal modem or ethernet cable, whatever... unplug it.
3) Now plug your computer back in. Before you do anything else sit down,
take a deep breath, relax and prepare to concentrate on what, exactly, the
computer does.
4) Turn the computer on, while watching and listening. Do you hear a beep?
Do you hear more than one beep? What, EXACTLY is displayed on the screen?
Describe every screen that pops up. What is displayed on each screen that
pops up? -Dave
Marsha
in and finally figured out how to boot from that. There were 5 options,
1 of which was check memory, which I did first. No memory problems, but
when it re-started, everything was fine. So even though things are okay
now, I want to know what happened. I'll try to answer in line as much
as I can remember when the problem was still there.
Dave wrote:
> OK, we need a lot more information to help you. First, what type of
> computer is it? Exact make and model number.
Dell Inspiron 530, bought new 14 months ago.
> What operating system is it running?
Windows Vista Home Premium
> How, exactly, do you connect to the Internet?
> Dial-up modem? Cable modem? DSL? If you have a high speed Internet
> connection, how, EXACTLY is that Internet connection attached to your
> computer? Is it Ethernet cable? USB? Wireless? Does it connect directly
> to a cable modem / dsl modem, or does it run through a router?
Cable modem. Router. Wired. I unhooked it from cable and it still
wouldn't boot, though.
> More importantly... we need to know after it was shut off for a while and
> you turned it back on, what do you mean by "it started normall"? Did you
> get to Windows? Were you able to log into windows? Did windows start at
> all, or did you just see BIOS splash screens (hard drives listed, memory
> tested), and then go straight to a cursor on a black screen? When you got
> the cursor on the black screen, where was it? Lower left? Upper Left?
> What did it look like? Square? Bar? Did you try to type anything at the
> cursor?
It did not get to Windows. Got 1 beep (I think) and some words flashed
very quickly in the upper left (too fast to even get one word). Then
the cursor in the upper left - bar. Almost like the old DOS screen.
This all took place in about 10 seconds after starting it. Pressed a
couple keys, but nothing happened.
My virus and adware programs found nothing. I haven't loaded any new
software in the last couple weeks, but would it be a good idea do the
back restore thing to maybe a week or so ago?
Marsha/Ohio
Gary Heston
Could be a number of things. How long did you wait while it displayed
the black screen and cursor? Can you hear the hard drive spinning up
when you power it on? How long did you wait? A problem can cause the
system trying to initialize something to repeatedly fail and time out
between tries, which can run into several minutes.
As Dave said, unplug everything from you system to see if an external
device is causing a problem. If it still doesn't boot, try disconnecting
your computers' power cord and let it sit for 5-10 minutes. Occasionally,
the circuitry which controls powering up gets confused, and this can
clear the problem.
Have you tried to boot from a CD? If your laptop has a CD burner, go to
http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/ and download the ISO image for the 4.11
release UBCB. If you can boot from it, it hasa number of tools for
testing motherboards and hard drives. If the problem is a corrupted
boot record (which happened to me on a system), run the TestDisc tool
under Filesystem Tools > Partition Tools and see if it can repair it.
At the very least, you can run nondestructive tests of the hard drive.
If it won't boot from a CD, you have a serious failure; power supply,
motherboard, CPU, or memory. If you're getting video and a cursor, I
don't think the problem is that bad.
Good luck!
Gary
--
Gary Heston ghe...@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man"
General of the Army (four stars) Ann Dunwoody
im.1.max...@xoxy.net
As earlier stated, there are so many possibilities.
If you could operate it with the cover off, you could feel whether the
hard drive was running. You could listen for it too even with the
cover on. I would start by removing and replacing the power and data
cable to the hard drive for openers. If you had any recovery disk at
all, you could put that in and it might reveal whether there was a
hard drive recognized. I use Power Quest so I can check a drive
without starting Windoze.
You should have a quick flash on the screen as to the F key used to
set up the bios. If you don't see it, keep restarting and holding each
F key in turn until you get something. If the motherboard is
functioning and you get in there, you will have options that will
reveal some things about the hard drive.
Even if your hard drive were dead, you should see a message saying
either "NO OPERATING SYSTEM" or "INVALID DRIVE."
Hold down the F keys, find the bios or safe mode and go from there.
Marsha
> Could be a number of things. How long did you wait while it displayed
> the black screen and cursor? Can you hear the hard drive spinning up
> when you power it on? How long did you wait? A problem can cause the
> system trying to initialize something to repeatedly fail and time out
> between tries, which can run into several minutes.
>
> As Dave said, unplug everything from you system to see if an external
> device is causing a problem. If it still doesn't boot, try disconnecting
> your computers' power cord and let it sit for 5-10 minutes. Occasionally,
> the circuitry which controls powering up gets confused, and this can
> clear the problem.
>
> Have you tried to boot from a CD? If your laptop has a CD burner, go to
> http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/ and download the ISO image for the 4.11
> release UBCB. If you can boot from it, it hasa number of tools for
> testing motherboards and hard drives. If the problem is a corrupted
> boot record (which happened to me on a system), run the TestDisc tool
> under Filesystem Tools > Partition Tools and see if it can repair it.
> At the very least, you can run nondestructive tests of the hard drive.
>
> If it won't boot from a CD, you have a serious failure; power supply,
> motherboard, CPU, or memory. If you're getting video and a cursor, I
> don't think the problem is that bad.
>
> Good luck!
> Gary
Thanks. That look like a useful site. See my response to Dave. I
answered as many questions as I could. It's working okay now, although
I really want to know what happened. Scared the bejesus out of me :-)
Marsha/Ohio
John A. Weeks III
> Okay, my motto is panic first and think later. I put the system disk(?)
> in and finally figured out how to boot from that. There were 5 options,
> 1 of which was check memory, which I did first. No memory problems, but
> when it re-started, everything was fine. So even though things are okay
> now, I want to know what happened. I'll try to answer in line as much
> as I can remember when the problem was still there.
I have seen something like this happen when a computer overheats.
It may have been hot enough inside that some logic item stopped
working, or your hard disk may have stopped working properly.
After it cooled down, all is well.
Check that your fan is turning. Many cheaper power supplies have
fans with sleaves rather than bearings, and they go out. Dust and
animal fur can block airflow. Or your power supply could be going
flaky.
-john-
--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 jo...@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================
Rod Speed
> Okay, my motto is panic first and think later. I put the system
> disk(?) in and finally figured out how to boot from that.
You could have just hit the appropriate F key at boot time.
> There were 5 options, 1 of which was check memory, which I did first. No memory problems, but when it re-started,
> everything was fine. So even though things are okay now, I want to know what happened.
Something went wrong. Time will tell if its an intermittent fault or what.
> Dave wrote:
> Windows Vista Home Premium
Nope, wait and see if it happens again.
Do you normally shut down fully at the end of the day or just let it sleep or hibernate ?
Marsha
> Marsha wrote:
>> My virus and adware programs found nothing. I haven't loaded any new software in the last couple weeks, but would it
>> be a good idea do the back restore thing to maybe a week or so ago?
>
> Nope, wait and see if it happens again.
>
> Do you normally shut down fully at the end of the day or just let it sleep or hibernate ?
>
Always fully shut down - at work and at home. I was told it clears the
RAM or something like that.
Marsha/Ohio
Jeff
Great advice.
TestDisc rules.
This sounds to me like it is a hard drive crash or hard drive problem
(could be virus), although it could be anything. My stock advice is to
try booting into the CD, if that works, your hardrive needs work. If it
doesn't reseat the memory and unplug everything not absolutely needed
(even keyboard/mouse). I've seen bad CD's and accessory cards crash a
computer. Troubleshooting is always a process of elimination.
Jeff
Rod Speed
Yeah, thats what I was commenting on. If you do sleep or
hibernate, its well worth a full reboot to see if the ram contents
have got a bit fragmented. Even Vista will do that eventually.
Gary Heston
>Gary Heston wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Have you tried to boot from a CD? If your laptop has a CD burner, go to
>> http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/ and download the ISO image for the 4.11
>> release UBCB. If you can boot from it, it hasa number of tools for
>> testing motherboards and hard drives. If the problem is a corrupted
>> boot record (which happened to me on a system), run the TestDisc tool
>> under Filesystem Tools > Partition Tools and see if it can repair it.
>> At the very least, you can run nondestructive tests of the hard drive.
>Thanks. That look like a useful site. See my response to Dave. I
>answered as many questions as I could. It's working okay now, although
>I really want to know what happened. Scared the bejesus out of me :-)
I routinely use the UBCD at work, where I have to do things like making
a system boot two different versions of Linux in addition to Windows XP.
I can manipulate partitions easily with it. Also good for sanitizing an
old drive before it's discarded or reused.
If you haven't done a backup recently, now is the time to do one.
Dave
"Marsha" <m...@xeb.net> wrote in message news:glinnb$qpk$1...@news.datemas.de...
> Okay, my motto is panic first and think later. I put the system disk(?)
> in and finally figured out how to boot from that. There were 5 options,
> 1 of which was check memory, which I did first. No memory problems, but
> when it re-started, everything was fine. So even though things are okay
> now, I want to know what happened. I'll try to answer in line as much
> as I can remember when the problem was still there.
>
> Dave wrote:
> > OK, we need a lot more information to help you. First, what type of
> > computer is it? Exact make and model number.
>
> Dell Inspiron 530, bought new 14 months ago.
I hope it's still under warranty.
>
> > What operating system is it running?
>
> Windows Vista Home Premium
Good!
>
> > How, exactly, do you connect to the Internet?
> > Dial-up modem? Cable modem? DSL? If you have a high speed Internet
> > connection, how, EXACTLY is that Internet connection attached to your
> > computer? Is it Ethernet cable? USB? Wireless? Does it connect
directly
> > to a cable modem / dsl modem, or does it run through a router?
>
> Cable modem. Router. Wired. I unhooked it from cable and it still
> wouldn't boot, though.
Well now that you wrote more, I don't think this matters.
>
> > More importantly... we need to know after it was shut off for a while
and
> > you turned it back on, what do you mean by "it started normall"? Did
you
> > get to Windows? Were you able to log into windows? Did windows start
at
> > all, or did you just see BIOS splash screens (hard drives listed, memory
> > tested), and then go straight to a cursor on a black screen? When you
got
> > the cursor on the black screen, where was it? Lower left? Upper Left?
> > What did it look like? Square? Bar? Did you try to type anything at
the
> > cursor?
>
> It did not get to Windows. Got 1 beep (I think) and some words flashed
> very quickly in the upper left (too fast to even get one word). Then
> the cursor in the upper left - bar. Almost like the old DOS screen.
> This all took place in about 10 seconds after starting it. Pressed a
> couple keys, but nothing happened.
OK, there are a couple of possibilities. Normally, I'd say it's not a big
deal. But as it's a Dell we are talking about, it could get a little hairy.
Like I said before, I hope it's still under warranty. Since you never got
past POST, you can rule out your hard drive and everything ON the hard
drive, as a possible suspect. That doesn't leave much. Bad RAM possibly,
but you've already checked that. I don't know how thoroughly the RAM was
tested, but I think it's safe to rule that out, for the moment. Only
components left are:
1) Video card (integrated into motherboard on the Dell 530)
2) Power supply (likely a proprietary, non-standard beast, considering
it's a dell system)
3) CPU (odds of that failing are about 1 in a million, unless the CPU fan
failed...but the system would warn you and/or shut itself down, hopefully,
if that happened)
So in terms of possible suspects, I'd say 95% power supply, 4% motherboard,
and 1% CPU.
When it comes to computers, anything can cause anything. So there is always
a slim possibility that it could be some other component bad as well.
But keep your eye on this system. If it fails intermittently, watch for a
pattern. What you are looking at is how far into the boot process does it
get before it fails. If the failure point is almost always before windows
starts (or while windows is starting), that points to a bad power supply.
If the failure point is even earlier, like before you get the POST screens
(showing hard drive information, RAM testing, etc), then that could be a bad
power supply, a bad motherboard, or a bad CPU.
>
> My virus and adware programs found nothing.
Not surprising. Your problem was not the hard drive, or anything ON the
hard drive. The hard drive wasn't in use at the time that the symptom
appeared.
> I haven't loaded any new
> software in the last couple weeks, but would it be a good idea do the
> back restore thing to maybe a week or so ago?
That won't help. Your symptom appeared long before your hard drive, your
operating system, or your software, were in use. You DO, however, need to
back up all your important data files to something outside this system,
ASAP. You've got an unknown hardware problem that COULD (possibly) cause
your hard drive to fail and/or files on the hard drive to get
corrupted/deleted. Depending on how important your files are on that hard
drive, you might want to do daily backups to DVDR/W media, or an external
hard drive, or an enormous thumb drive, or all of them. Daily, until you
are certain that the problem is fixed. Even after the problem is fixed,
keep doing periodic backups. -Dave
Marsha
> I hope it's still under warranty.
Nope. One year in-home service. I never get an extended warranty on
anything.
>>> What operating system is it running?
>> Windows Vista Home Premium
>
> Good!
I like it so far, but Windows 2000 is my favorite.
> OK, there are a couple of possibilities. Normally, I'd say it's not a big
> deal. But as it's a Dell we are talking about, it could get a little hairy.
> Like I said before, I hope it's still under warranty. Since you never got
> past POST, you can rule out your hard drive and everything ON the hard
> drive, as a possible suspect. That doesn't leave much. Bad RAM possibly,
> but you've already checked that. I don't know how thoroughly the RAM was
> tested, but I think it's safe to rule that out, for the moment. Only
> components left are:
> 1) Video card (integrated into motherboard on the Dell 530)
> 2) Power supply (likely a proprietary, non-standard beast, considering
> it's a dell system)
> 3) CPU (odds of that failing are about 1 in a million, unless the CPU fan
> failed...but the system would warn you and/or shut itself down, hopefully,
> if that happened)
> So in terms of possible suspects, I'd say 95% power supply, 4% motherboard,
> and 1% CPU.
I'm leaning heavily towards overheat. I noticed that one side of the
tower was flush against the desk, blocking the vents on that side. And,
when it finally did boot up, I had left it set for a good half hour.
> But keep your eye on this system. If it fails intermittently, watch for a
> pattern. What you are looking at is how far into the boot process does it
> get before it fails. If the failure point is almost always before windows
> starts (or while windows is starting), that points to a bad power supply.
> If the failure point is even earlier, like before you get the POST screens
> (showing hard drive information, RAM testing, etc), then that could be a bad
> power supply, a bad motherboard, or a bad CPU.
Yeah, now I'm eyeing the damn thing suspiciously every time it gets
turned on.
> operating system, or your software, were in use. You DO, however, need to
> back up all your important data files to something outside this system,
> ASAP. You've got an unknown hardware problem that COULD (possibly) cause
> your hard drive to fail and/or files on the hard drive to get
> corrupted/deleted. Depending on how important your files are on that hard
> drive, you might want to do daily backups to DVDR/W media, or an external
> hard drive, or an enormous thumb drive, or all of them. Daily, until you
> are certain that the problem is fixed. Even after the problem is fixed,
> keep doing periodic backups. -Dave
>
It wouldn't be a disaster if I lost everything on the hard drive, but it
would be inconvenient to reconstruct what's on it. But, regular backups
are now on the schedule. Thanks a lot for the help.
Marsha/Ohio
Marsha
> I routinely use the UBCD at work, where I have to do things like making
> a system boot two different versions of Linux in addition to Windows XP.
> I can manipulate partitions easily with it.
You're speaking Greek.
> Also good for sanitizing an old drive before it's discarded or reused.
Okay, I know what that is.
> If you haven't done a backup recently, now is the time to do one.
> Gary
Backups of the important stuff are now on the schedule. Thanks a lot
for your help.
Marsha/Ohio
Gary Heston
>Gary Heston wrote:
>> I routinely use the UBCD at work, where I have to do things like making
>> a system boot two different versions of Linux in addition to Windows XP.
>> I can manipulate partitions easily with it.
>You're speaking Greek.
Not Greek, Geek. What I do with workstations is set them up so that when
you're booting them up, you can select which operating system you want to
start. Some of our developers have to use different versions of Linux,
depending upon what they're working on. So, I may have it set up to
allow selecting Windows XP, RedHat 5.1, or Fedora 9. One of my systems
at home will allow Windows 98SE, Windows 2000 Pro, or Fedora 9.
In theory, this can be extended to many different operating systems, but
it can get cumbersome to maintain.
>> Also good for sanitizing an old drive before it's discarded or reused.
>Okay, I know what that is.
Good, do it before discarding hardware. DBAN works well, and is on the
UBCD.
>> If you haven't done a backup recently, now is the time to do one.
>Backups of the important stuff are now on the schedule. Thanks a lot
>for your help.
Glad to. Not just a job, but a hobby, too. :-)
Gary Heston
[ ... ]
>I'm leaning heavily towards overheat. I noticed that one side of the
>tower was flush against the desk, blocking the vents on that side. And,
>when it finally did boot up, I had left it set for a good half hour.
You're not alone, apparently:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/254108-28-dell-inspiron-running
It might be time to blow dust out of your system; they tend to collect
it over time.
Look at the software that came with your system; it may have a monitoring
program you can run which will show you what the temperatures are in
your system. If not, look for MotherBoard Monitor or something similar
to track what's going on.
Marsha
> In article <glllue$non$2...@news.datemas.de>, Marsha <m...@bex.net> wrote:
> [ ... ]
>> I'm leaning heavily towards overheat. I noticed that one side of the
>> tower was flush against the desk, blocking the vents on that side. And,
>> when it finally did boot up, I had left it set for a good half hour.
> [ ... ]
>
> You're not alone, apparently:
>
> http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/254108-28-dell-inspiron-running
>
> It might be time to blow dust out of your system; they tend to collect
> it over time.
>
> Look at the software that came with your system; it may have a monitoring
> program you can run which will show you what the temperatures are in
> your system. If not, look for MotherBoard Monitor or something similar
> to track what's going on.
>
>
> Gary
>
Great, another tidbit of info to file away! I vacuum what seems like
massive amounts of dog hair on a regular basis, and by now there's
probably a wad inside the tower. Next on the to-do list....
Marsha/Ohio
Dave Garland
> Great, another tidbit of info to file away! I vacuum what seems like
> massive amounts of dog hair on a regular basis, and by now there's
> probably a wad inside the tower. Next on the to-do list....
>
Then you definitely need to open the tower up and blow it out with
canned air. Everywhere, but especially around the cpu fan and
heatsink (big cooling fins), and stick the nozzle in the vent slots of
the power supply (metal box where the power cord plugs in). Computers
attract dust/hair because they are sucking air in, and dust bunnies
will make them overheat.
Dave
wes...@gmail.com
> Great, another tidbit of info to file away! I vacuum what seems like
> massive amounts of dog hair on a regular basis, and by now there's
> probably a wad inside the tower. Next on the to-do list....
So many posts of "it could be this or could be that or could be".
So what do you do? Wildly replace parts?
Any properly constructed computer must work just fine in a 100
degree F room with dust balls inside. If the computer then works
after removing dust bunnies or after cooling the room, then defective
hardware still exists and will be getting worse. Heat is how to find
failures. Those who never learned hardware want to fix the symptom
(heat) rather than find the failure. Worse, they want to fix things
without first learning what is wrong.
Anyone who posted "it could be this... " and did not list at least
seven items was also starving you of facts. Below is what to do to
find failure.
A computer's foundation is the power supply 'system' - not just a
power supply. That 'system' can be defective even when the system
works just fine. Swapping a power supply and the computer boots? The
'system' could still be defective. The new power supply could still be
defective. Solution means numbers. That means a tool sold where
hammers are sold, for about the same price, and even sold in Kmart and
Wal-mart. Get a 3.5 digit multimeter. In less than two minutes, get
numbers for power supply voltages. Now we know if the power 'system'
is good or bad.
What is your alternative? Keep replacing parts until computer never
fails again. IOW replace almost every part inside the machine. Or
perform simple procedures also summarized in "When your computer dies
without warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup
alt.windows-xp at:
http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh
Connector chart to locate each color:
http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/power/atxpower.html
In your case, important numbers are from any one of yellow, red,
orange, and purple wires. Voltages must exceed 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7.
Numbers taken only when machine is executing under maximum load. IOW
first play complex graphics (ie a movie), while downloading from the
internet, while playing sound, while reading a CD-Rom, while ... IOW
multitask so that every peripheral is executing and consuming power.
Then get those numbers.
If a power ‘system’ is 100% defective, any number will be too low.
Of course, this reply comes from one with more knowledge. So post
those numbers to obtain further informed insight. Without numbers,
the better informed cannot post anything except “it could be this or
could be…”.
Now move on to other suspects. Windows stores problems in the
system (event) logs, then works around those problems. You are
expected to consult those logs later when ready to address them. What
does the system (event) logs and Device Manager report? Again, don't
even think about fixing anything yet. Step one is always to only get
facts. Fixing comes later.
Responsible computer manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware
diagnostics for free. Execute those diagnostics that do extensive
tests on every part and peripheral (except the power supply system).
Diagnostic may take something less than an hour. Diagnostics are on
hard disk, on a provided CD-Rom, and from the manufacturer's web site.
Diagnostics execute without Windows loaded (because good analysis
separates the problem into parts; then analyzes those parts
separately. Ie test hardware with no Windows. What do diagnostics
report? Then put the computer in a very warm environment (ie a 100
degree F room) and execute again.
CD-Rom previously had a memory test. If comprehensive, that test
took 20 minutes to 3 hours. Otherwise memory is still unknown.
Defective memory often works just fine in a cool environment. It is
detected defective only when diagnostics are performed in a warmer
environment. For example, when memory is heated by a hair dryer on
highest heat settings while diagnostics run. That ideal (warm) memory
temperature is how defective memory is located. However, most
defective memory causes a task crash or a complete computer crash. It
either completely crashed the computer or is reported in memory logs.
Where is that fact?
Notice no wasting time with "it could be this or could be that".
First determine what is good - without doubt - or what is bad.
Answers must be definitive. Later, we analyze what is learned. That
means numbers are necessary. Only then replace a part. Others want
to fix things immediately which explains no useful answers. Step one
- no way around numbers from that multimeter and reports from the
logs.
First establish hardware integrity. Only then move on to other parts
of the problem – software. But again, don’t start replacing or
downloading things without facts. Stop wild speculation from 'it could
be this... " reasoning.
Dave Garland
> Any properly constructed computer must work just fine in a 100
> degree F room with dust balls inside. If the computer then works
> after removing dust bunnies or after cooling the room, then defective
> hardware still exists and will be getting worse. Heat is how to find
> failures. Those who never learned hardware want to fix the symptom
> (heat) rather than find the failure. Worse, they want to fix things
> without first learning what is wrong.
Very few computers are rated for operation at 100F. Just to pick one
at random, the Dell OptiPlex 360 specs call for operating temp to be
50-95F. Typical hard drives have a max of 122F, but that's internal
temp and the drive will typically be 20-30F higher than ambient (one
of my computers in a room that's 54F reports a HD temp of 78.8F).
Heat causes failures. Dust causes failures (because it traps heat,
and because it can kill fan bearings and clog heatsinks and vents). I
have seen name-brand computers that were designed in such a way that
the hard drives gradually cooked, and failed, even without dust.
> Notice no wasting time with "it could be this or could be that".
> First determine what is good - without doubt - or what is bad.
> Answers must be definitive.
That is good. But most people do not have the knowledge base, or the
tools, to do that.
> First establish hardware integrity. Only then move on to other parts
> of the problem – software.
Actually, with Windows, a lot of the time it is indeed software.
Dave
wes...@gmail.com
> Very few computers are rated for operation at 100F. Just to pick one
> at random, the Dell OptiPlex 360 specs call for operating temp to be
> Heat causes failures. Dust causes failures (because it traps heat,
> and because it can kill fan bearings and clog heatsinks and vents).
A newbie technician will only repair what is seen rather than what
really exists. With experience, one knows the computer that works
just fine in 100+ degrees F is also derated in system specs to 95.
Engineers, especially from responsible companies routinely degrade
these numbers. Meanwhile digital hardware even at 160 degrees F is
not damaged. But timing or voltage threshold changes might create a
"not-destructive" crash.
To harm hardware, temperature must be hundreds of degrees. So hot as
leave skin when touched. To find defective hardware, we routinely
heat that hardware to 'pigs happy' temperatures of 100 degrees F. Such
trivial temperatures do not cause the damage promoted in urban myths.
Those who actually learned this stuff would know the old rule from
back when semiconductors were more easily damaged: if it does not
leave skin, then it is not too hot.
All properly constructed PC must work just fine at 100 degrees F.
But many only know from observation (also called junk science) never
learn these numbers and the technology.
Popular among A+ Certified Computer techs (who don't even know how
electricity works) are fears base only in these urban myth and
solutions such as shotgunning. Those myths are some of the first
things we teach a newbie tech to ignore. A trained tech first learns
the numbers. Datasheets even bluntly state why 100 degrees F is well
below any hardware destructive temperature. Untrained techs even
confuse timing changes with hardware damage. Defective hardware fails
(timing changes) more often at 100 degrees. Heat is the diagnostic
tool to find defective hardware. An untrained computer tech would
instead blame the only thing he understands - dust balls.
Many computer techs are so uneducated as to assume (from popular
myths) that executing a program overnight is burn-in testing. Burn-in
testing is executing diagnostics at temperatures above 100 degrees,
then lowering those temperatures to near freezing. Test again, then
raise temperatures back above 100 degree F and test again. Those mild
(ideal)temperature cycles are burn-in testing for consumer hardware.
Industrial hardware testing is even more extreme temperatures.
Meanwhile, an uneducated tech fears heat created by dust balls because
he does not even know what burn-in testing is.
Were you designing and building computer hardware even 40 years ago
when we were also training our techs? Untrained techs often would
cure heat (only what they understand) rather than find the defect.
Dave's education begins when he lists the temperature number for
timing changes AND another higher number for actual chip damage. It's
not too hot until you touch it and leave skin. But then only one of
us also did thermal equations to design computers.
100 degrees F is a diagnostic tool to find the already defective
hardware. A hairdryer on highest heat setting is one tool to find
defective semiconductors. Many A+ Certified Computer techs don't even
know a computer may work even when the power supply is defective which
is why they shotgun. Another thing we teach newbie techs. How to
find a defective supply? Again, first learn numbers to have
definitive answers. Heat is a tool to find defective hardware. Curing
symptoms is fixing a computer by removing dust balls.