Freezer question, your experience.
john hamilton
the top.
'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a hundred pounds less
the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at �260.
The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after
the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not need
defrosting as often as normal.
Knowing that its just not easy to get an airtight seal, the suspicion is
that it might draw the air out but; it will creep back in again anyway.
Would anyone with experience of the Miele freezer know if its worth paying
the extra �100 for this 'de-frost' feature. In other words does it work as
a means of cutting out defrosting? Thanks for any advice.
spamtrap1888
> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on
> the top.
>
> 'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a hundred pounds less
> the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at £260.
>
> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after
> the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not need
> defrosting as often as normal.
>
Let's look at some general issues. Does this solution target a problem
that you will have?
Allowing moist air to enter the freezer will allow frost to build up,
increasing the need to defrost.
Will you be opening the lid of the freezer frequently?
Once open, will you have the freezer lid open for long periods of
time?
How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
the need to defrost.
Modern fridge and freezer seals are quite air-tight. Do you have cold
air leaking from your current fridge? Probably not.
Mark Thorson
>
> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after
> the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not need
> defrosting as often as normal.
You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
unopened milk cartons burst?
GregS
>On Jun 1, 9:20=A0am, "john hamilton" <bluest...@mail.invalid> wrote:
>> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid o=
>n
>> the top.
>>
>> 'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a hundred pounds less
>>
>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, afte=
>r
>> the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not n=
>eed
>> defrosting as often as normal.
>>
>
>Let's look at some general issues. Does this solution target a problem
>that you will have?
>
>Allowing moist air to enter the freezer will allow frost to build up,
>increasing the need to defrost.
>
>Will you be opening the lid of the freezer frequently?
>
>Once open, will you have the freezer lid open for long periods of
>time?
>
>How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
>to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
>air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
>the need to defrost.
>
>Modern fridge and freezer seals are quite air-tight. Do you have cold
>air leaking from your current fridge? Probably not.
We had little problem with one opened little.
A tip I learn from the lab. Get flat sheeting to put under the
lid, so air does not get whirled when you quickly open it up.
Just slide the separate sections out of the way for access. Given a 6 foot
freezer, you can make 2-4 sections. This can also be insulation
foam sheeting. 1/2 inch. You should get very little infiltration.
greg
h
"spamtrap1888" <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9579bcec-f310-4d69...@v29g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 1, 9:20 am, "john hamilton" <bluest...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on
> the top.
>
> 'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a hundred pounds less
> the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at �260.
>
> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after
> the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not
> need
> defrosting as often as normal.
>
How often is "normal"? I open my freezer once a day, and the last time I
defrosted was June of 2008. I just checked it for frost, and there's a small
bit of frost near the top of one corner. No other frost visible anywhere.
Andy Champ
>
> How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
> to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
> air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
> the need to defrost.
>
are cold. For the freezer it's the absolute moisture level, not the RH,
that counts - to be exact the amount that will freeze out at minus
whateveritis you set it at.
Warm, humid cellar in summer? Never met the beast.
Andy
spamtrap1888
> spamtrap1888 wrote:
>
> > How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
> > to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
> > air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
> > the need to defrost.
>
> Cold cellars tend to have a high humidity level, largely because they
> are cold. For the freezer it's the absolute moisture level, not the RH,
> that counts - to be exact the amount that will freeze out at minus
> whateveritis you set it at.
Yes, warmer air can hold more moisture than colder air. I believe I
already typed that.
>
> Warm, humid cellar in summer? Never met the beast.
>
Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter. The more moisture in the room ambient,
the more moisture will enter the freezer when the lid id opened.
Doug Miller
>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>summer and colder in winter.
Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
Lou Decruss
wrote:
I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
insist on a chest freezer.
Lou
Doug Miller
I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
consider a chest freezer. That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
all kinds of crap on top of...
Rod Speed
> spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still
>> will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.
> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
Nothing wrong with what he wrote, the temperature of the
cellar will indeed vary like that unless it is deep underground.
Doug Miller
I guess it's a question of "compared to what?" -- I took him to mean that
cellars will be warmer in summer, and cooler in winter, than other parts of
the house.
If he meant that the cellar is warmer in summer than the cellar is in winter,
yes, that's obviously true.
The Real Bev
> Lou Decruss<LouDe...@biteme.com> wrote:
>>spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>> spamtrap1888<spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>>
>>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>
>>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>>insist on a chest freezer.
>
> I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
> consider a chest freezer.
The cold doesn't leak out when you open the door.
> That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
> all kinds of crap on top of...
And you think that's a bad thing? Invest in one of those nice sturdy chrome
rolling shelf units -- when you need something in the freezer just roll it
away. If that won't fit around the freezer, hang shelves or cabinets above it.
Horizontal space should NEVER be wasted.
--
Cheers, Bev
====================================================================
"Americans are looking for more government in their life, not less."
-- Colin Powell, former Good Guy
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Doug Miller wrote
>>> spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> spamtrap1888 wrote:
>>>>>> How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept?
>>>>>> Cellars tend to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more
>>>>>> moisture than cold winter air. Opening the lid in a humid
>>>>>> cellar in the summertime will increase the need to defrost.
>>>>> Cold cellars tend to have a high humidity level, largely because they
>>>>> are cold. For the freezer it's the absolute moisture level, not the RH,
>>>>> that counts - to be exact the amount that will freeze out at minus
>>>>> whateveritis you set it at.
>>>> Yes, warmer air can hold more moisture than colder air.
>>>> I believe I already typed that.
>>>>> Warm, humid cellar in summer? Never met the beast.
>>>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still
>>>> will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.
>>> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>> Nothing wrong with what he wrote, the temperature of the
>> cellar will indeed vary like that unless it is deep underground.
> I guess it's a question of "compared to what?"
Its obvious he meant compared with those other seasons.
> -- I took him to mean that cellars will be warmer in summer,
> and cooler in winter, than other parts of the house.
More fool you.
> If he meant that the cellar is warmer in summer than the cellar is in winter, yes, that's obviously true.
And thats clearly what he meant given the context that you deleted from the quoting and I have restored.
Fake ID
Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?
m
Rod Speed
Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.
h
"The Real Bev" <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hu4eqh$96h$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 06/01/10 19:00, Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> Lou Decruss<LouDe...@biteme.com> wrote:
>>>spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>>> spamtrap1888<spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>>>
>>>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>>
>>>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>>>insist on a chest freezer.
>>
>> I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would
>> even
>> consider a chest freezer.
>
>
Chest freezers use less energy and are more efficient at keeping an even
temperature, at least that's what the prevailing opinion was when I bought
one 20 years ago. Our chest freezer is in the laundry room (off the
kitchen), just below a double window. There's a basket on top for the
smallest cat to sleep in. If I need to get into the freezer I just pickup up
the basket and put it on the dryer and then move it back afterwards. The cat
never wakes up.
Doug Miller
>On 06/01/10 19:00, Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> Lou Decruss<LouDe...@biteme.com> wrote:
>>>spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>>> spamtrap1888<spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>>>
>>>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>>
>>>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>>>insist on a chest freezer.
>>
>> I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
>> consider a chest freezer.
>
>The cold doesn't leak out when you open the door.
That's basically irrelevant. You *might* lose five to ten cubic feet of cold
air when opening an upright freezer -- let's call it ten. Ten cubic feet of
air has a mass of around one pound. That's not going to make any noticeable
difference in the temperature inside, unless you *leave* the door open.
>
>> That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
>> all kinds of crap on top of...
>
>And you think that's a bad thing?
Makes it kinda hard to open the lid.
>Invest in one of those nice sturdy chrome
>rolling shelf units -- when you need something in the freezer just roll it
>away. If that won't fit around the freezer, hang shelves or cabinets above it.
Or just get an upright freezer.
>
>Horizontal space should NEVER be wasted.
Which of course is yet another reason for *not* getting a chest freezer: it
takes up twice as much floor space as an upright.
Doug Miller
Wrong.
GregS
MORE efficient. All I know are not self defrosting, more
efficiency, and less drying out of food. Also flavor transfer.
greg
GregS
The statement is perfectly true. Think about the reference temperature..
greg
GregS
When you take something out, its a place to work on food items.
It does consume more floor space.
greg
GregS
If a vacuum freezer would have a leak, it would suck in more moisture.
Lou Decruss
<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 06/01/10 19:00, Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> Lou Decruss<LouDe...@biteme.com> wrote:
>>>spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>>> spamtrap1888<spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>>>
>>>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>>
>>>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>>>insist on a chest freezer.
>>
>> I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
>> consider a chest freezer.
>
>The cold doesn't leak out when you open the door.
>
>> That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
>> all kinds of crap on top of...
>
>And you think that's a bad thing? Invest in one of those nice sturdy chrome
>rolling shelf units -- when you need something in the freezer just roll it
>away.
That's just silly.
>If that won't fit around the freezer, hang shelves or cabinets above it.
They'd have to be mounted pretty high to allow clearance for the door.
Do you recommend climbing on top the freezer to get to the cabinets?
I'm not going to look up freezer specs but it doesn't sound like a
useful setup.
Lou
GregS
I have always complained about self defrosting, fan driven stuff.
And its always seems to be in the defrost mode when I
am putting warmer food in from the store. it should never go
on defrost during wakeing hours. the time should be able to
be set by the user. Like 3 AM for instance.
I have measure temps of the 45 minuite defrost cycle
and they rise pretty high, and ice cream is always softer
after this occurs. If your kids are going in and out on a warm day during
a defrost cycle, you beter watch out.
greg
Rod Speed
> Wrong.
Nope, I do it quite a bit with milk, basically when defrosting the fridge.
My freezers are separate from the fridge.
Rod Speed
> Lou Decruss <LouDe...@biteme.com> wrote
>> (Doug Miller) wrote
>> spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.
>>> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>> I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
>> why someone would insist on a chest freezer.
> MORE efficient.
Only trivially. The amount of air involved is trivial.
> All I know are not self defrosting,
Plenty of upright freezers are too.
> more efficiency,
Only marginally.
> and less drying out of food. Also flavor transfer.
Thats a myth.
Particularly if the freezer is in the kitchen and thats by
far the most convenient place to have it, a vertical freezer
is much more convenient to use and takes up less floor
space and is well worth the trivially lower efficence that
you get becaue the air falls out when you open the door.
Rod Speed
> spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote
>> Lou Decruss <LouDe...@biteme.com> wrote
>>> spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote
>>> spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still
>>>>> will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.
>>>> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>> I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
>>> why someone would insist on a chest freezer.
>> I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why
>> anyone would even consider a chest freezer. That large flat
>> area is such a tempting place to set all kinds of crap on top of...
> When you take something out, its a place to work on food items.
I prefer to have adequate bench space in the kitchen for that.
> It does consume more floor space.
So in practice that isnt likely to be much use even if you are very short of bench space.
Rod Speed
Yes, but its easy to ensure that it doesnt leak.
I doubt its a vacuum freezer anyway, I bet the sales spiel mangles what it actually does.
Roy
> GregS wrote
>
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
==
I'll go along with that conclusion as well.
==
Doug Miller
Fill a cardboard milk carton with water, freeze it, and see what happens.
According to you, it won't burst. But you're wrong.
Leave a six-pack of beer in your car trunk overnight in the middle of the
winter. According to you, the cans won't burst. But you're wrong.
Jim K
> In article <86nhruFpk...@mid.individual.net>, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Doug Miller wrote
> >>> Fake ID wrote
> >>>> Mark Thorson <nos...@sonic.net> wrote
> >>>>> john hamilton wrote
>
> >>>>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the
> >>>>>> air inside, after the lid is closed. With less air trapped the
> >>>>>> theory is that it will not need defrosting as often as normal.
>
> >>>>> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
> >>>>> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
> >>>>> unopened milk cartons burst?
>
> >>>> Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?
>
> >>> Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.
>
> >> Wrong.
>
> >Nope, I do it quite a bit with milk, basically when defrosting the fridge.
>
> Fill a cardboard milk carton with water, freeze it, and see what happens.
> According to you, it won't burst. But you're wrong.
>
> Leave a six-pack of beer in your car trunk overnight in the middle of the
> winter. According to you, the cans won't burst. But you're wrong.
who said anything about cardboard milk cartons?
frozen coke cans just pop out the inverted base if yyou freeze them
(over here anyways ;>))
Jim K
ARWadsworth
"Jim K" <jk98...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:bdd7fdd1-d86f-4834...@v37g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
The coke cans do but I can assure you that cans of Stella pop the ring pulls
if left in a freezer.
Adam
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Doug Miller wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Fake ID wrote
>>>>> Mark Thorson <nos...@sonic.net> wrote
>>>>>> john hamilton wrote
>>>>>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the
>>>>>>> air inside, after the lid is closed. With less air trapped the
>>>>>>> theory is that it will not need defrosting as often as normal.
>>>>>> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
>>>>>> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
>>>>>> unopened milk cartons burst?
>>>>> Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?
>>>> Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.
>>> Wrong.
>> Nope, I do it quite a bit with milk, basically when defrosting the fridge.
> Fill a cardboard milk carton with water, freeze it, and see what happens.
Like I said, I did that quite a bit when defrosting the fridge, not one ever burst.
> According to you, it won't burst. But you're wrong.
Nope, not one ever burst.
> Leave a six-pack of beer in your car trunk overnight in the middle of
> the winter. According to you, the cans won't burst. But you're wrong.
Nope, not one has ever burst here, and dont when you put them in the freezer either.
The only ones that have ever burst have been in glass containers, what we call stubbys.
Rod Speed
> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the
> lid on the top.
>
> 'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a hundred pounds
> less the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at �260.
>
> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside,
> after the lid is closed.
They actually say it expels the FROST inside, not the air.
> With less air trapped the theory is that it
> will not need defrosting as often as normal.
>
> Knowing that its just not easy to get an airtight seal, the suspicion
> is that it might draw the air out but; it will creep back in again
> anyway.
> Would anyone with experience of the Miele freezer know if its worth
> paying the extra �100 for this 'de-frost' feature. In other words
> does it work as a means of cutting out defrosting? Thanks for any
> advice.
hr(bob) hofmann@att.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
That still doesn't make sense. how do they expel the frost, scrape it
off and then toss it out somehowwww??? They might mean a self-
defrosting freezer, that would make some sense at least.
GregS
>GregS wrote
>> Lou Decruss <LouDe...@biteme.com> wrote
>>> (Doug Miller) wrote
>>> spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>>>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
> summer and colder in winter.
>
>>>> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>
>>> I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
>>> why someone would insist on a chest freezer.
>
>> MORE efficient.
>
>Only trivially. The amount of air involved is trivial.
Nearly all the air drops out of an upright. The thing is, air
has little mass. Its the foods mass which stores the absence
of heat. But, if you keep opening the door, it matters.
>> All I know are not self defrosting,
>
>Plenty of upright freezers are too.
>
>> more efficiency,.
>Thats a myth.
Wrong.
The circulation fan is the main cause.
I know by use. The old refridgerators have less effect
on partially closed containers. Its hard to seal a lot of them.
I think it may have somthing to do with the ziploc bags
in my freezer expanding. They all fill up with air over time, and I
keep letting the air out. IS THIS MAGIC ??
Most of what i say about the refridgerator/freezer subject is from direct experiance.
>Particularly if the freezer is in the kitchen and thats by
>far the most convenient place to have it, a vertical freezer
>is much more convenient to use and takes up less floor
>space and is well worth the trivially lower efficence that
>you get becaue the air falls out when you open the door.
The ideal system is a separate freezer and fridge in the kitchen,
and also a walk in pantry.
One TV show, Chef at Home, has these features with an otherwise normal
looking medium sized kitchen. Nice. I wish. At least I have 2 microwaves and
two turbo ovens and a regular oven, there.
Rod Speed
>>> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on the top.
>>> 'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a
>>> hundred pounds less the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at �260.
>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after the lid is closed.
>> They actually say it expels the FROST inside, not the air.
>>> With less air trapped the theory is that it
>>> will not need defrosting as often as normal.
>>> Knowing that its just not easy to get an airtight seal, the suspicion
>>> is that it might draw the air out but; it will creep back in again anyway.
>>> Would anyone with experience of the Miele freezer know if its worth
>>> paying the extra �100 for this 'de-frost' feature. In other words does
>>> it work as a means of cutting out defrosting? Thanks for any advice.
> That still doesn't make sense.
It does actually, tho its been dumbed down like with so many sales speils.
> how do they expel the frost, scrape it off and then toss it out somehowwww???
Just replace the new air that has just entered when the lid was opened
with dry air that has been passed over the chiller coils so the frost
doesnt form inside the freezer where it gets deposited on the food etc.
Thats how the frost free system works.
> They might mean a self-defrosting freezer, that would make some sense at least.
They arent self defrosting, they just ensure that the frost never forms inside the freezer,
the air deposits the mosture outside the freezer before it gets into the freezer.
Thats how any frost free system works.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> GregS wrote
>>> Lou Decruss <LouDe...@biteme.com> wrote
>>>> (Doug Miller) wrote
>>>> spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>> summer and colder in winter.
>>>>> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>>> I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
>>>> why someone would insist on a chest freezer.
>>> MORE efficient.
>> Only trivially. The amount of air involved is trivial.
> Nearly all the air drops out of an upright.
Yes, but thats very little mass, even with an empty freezer.
> The thing is, air has little mass. Its the foods mass which stores
> the absence of heat. But, if you keep opening the door, it matters.
Not really, because even with say 10 door openings, the mass of
air thats lost is trivial compared with the mass of whats in the freezer.
>>> All I know are not self defrosting,
>> Plenty of upright freezers are too.
>>> more efficiency,.
>> Thats a myth.
> Wrong.
Nope.
> The circulation fan is the main cause.
There isnt necessarily any circulation fan at all. None
of my upright freezers have any circulation fan at all.
And even with a fan, that uses very little energy.
> I know by use.
You clearly dont.
> The old refridgerators have less effect on partially closed containers.
Thats just the circulation of the air effect.
Plenty of upright freezers have no circulation fan, none of mine have one.
> Its hard to seal a lot of them.
Its completely trivial to seal them all.
> I think it may have somthing to do with the ziploc bags
> in my freezer expanding. They all fill up with air over time,
Mine dont. I put the meat in the bags when the meat is wet
and the meat sticks to the plastic and they dont expand.
> and I keep letting the air out. IS THIS MAGIC ??
Nope, just evidence that a ziplock isnt a perfect seal.
There are alternatives to ziplock bags.
> Most of what i say about the refridgerator/freezer subject is from direct experiance.
But you dont understand the basics, or even that plenty of upright
freezers have no fans or self defrost either. None of mine have either.
>> Particularly if the freezer is in the kitchen and thats by
>> far the most convenient place to have it, a vertical freezer
>> is much more convenient to use and takes up less floor
>> space and is well worth the trivially lower efficence that
>> you get becaue the air falls out when you open the door.
> The ideal system is a separate freezer and fridge in the kitchen,
Yes, that is what I have, but separate doors isnt that much worse
and has some advantages efficiency wise, two less external surfaces.
> and also a walk in pantry.
I prefer a different approach myself, one wall covered with shelves.
Even very large pull out wheeled shelves a bit like books in a bookshelf has some advantages too.
> One TV show, Chef at Home, has these features with an otherwise normal looking medium sized kitchen. Nice.
I dont care what it looks like, what I care about is how well it works.
> I wish. At least I have 2 microwaves and
> two turbo ovens and a regular oven, there.
Sounds like overkill.
atec7 7
> Doug Miller wrote
>
>> According to you, it won't burst. But you're wrong.
>
> Nope, not one ever burst.
As usual a false claim to gain ground
or your freezer like your brain is faulty
>
>> Leave a six-pack of beer in your car trunk overnight in the middle of
>> the winter. According to you, the cans won't burst. But you're wrong.
>
> Nope, not one has ever burst here, and dont when you put them in the freezer either.
>
> The only ones that have ever burst have been in glass containers, what we call stubbys.
another lie
now refute my claim to have cooked eggs on a number plate when out in
the bush
>
>
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Doug Miller wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Fake ID wrote
>>>>>> Mark Thorson <nos...@sonic.net> wrote
>>>>>>> john hamilton wrote
>
>>>>>>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the
>>>>>>>> air inside, after the lid is closed. With less air trapped the
>>>>>>>> theory is that it will not need defrosting as often as normal.
>
>>>>>>> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
>>>>>>> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
>>>>>>> unopened milk cartons burst?
>
>>>>>> Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?
>
>>>>> Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.
>
>>>> Wrong.
>
>>> Nope, I do it quite a bit with milk, basically when defrosting the fridge.
>
>> Fill a cardboard milk carton with water, freeze it, and see what happens.
>
>Like I said, I did that quite a bit when defrosting the fridge, not one ever
> burst.
You're a liar. Either:
a) you never did it at all
b) you didn't actually *fill* the cartons
c) you're lying about them not bursting.
>
>> According to you, it won't burst. But you're wrong.
>
>Nope, not one ever burst.
Liar.
>
>> Leave a six-pack of beer in your car trunk overnight in the middle of
>> the winter. According to you, the cans won't burst. But you're wrong.
>
>Nope, not one has ever burst here, and dont when you put them in the freezer
> either.
You're lying again. You never did it.
Sqwertz
> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on
> the top.
Why do people prefer chest freezers? Uprights take up less floor
space (you can't stack stuff on top of your chest freezer), and
with a moderately full freezer, you have remove a bunch of stuff
to get what you're looking for - even if you can find it at all.
How may times have we heard the comment "Found xyz in my chest
freezer. I think it's nnn years old.". And then possibly "is it
still good?"
-sw
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Doug Miller wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Doug Miller wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Fake ID wrote
>>>>>>> Mark Thorson <nos...@sonic.net> wrote
>>>>>>>> john hamilton wrote
>>>>>>>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the
>>>>>>>>> air inside, after the lid is closed. With less air trapped the
>>>>>>>>> theory is that it will not need defrosting as often as normal.
>>>>>>>> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
>>>>>>>> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
>>>>>>>> unopened milk cartons burst?
>>>>>>> Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?
>>>>>> Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.
>>>>> Wrong.
>>>> Nope, I do it quite a bit with milk, basically when defrosting the fridge.
>>> Fill a cardboard milk carton with water, freeze it, and see what happens.
>> Like I said, I did that quite a bit when defrosting the fridge, not one ever burst.
> You're a liar.
Have you the remotest idea how pathetic you look in the eyes of someone who has done what they said ?
Obviously not.
> Either:
> a) you never did it at all
> b) you didn't actually *fill* the cartons
> c) you're lying about them not bursting.
d) you dont have a fucking clue and others have said the same as I have.
>>> According to you, it won't burst. But you're wrong.
>> Nope, not one ever burst.
> Liar.
Have you the remotest idea how pathetic you look in the eyes of someone who has done what they said ?
Obviously not.
>>> Leave a six-pack of beer in your car trunk overnight in the middle
>>> of the winter. According to you, the cans won't burst. But you're wrong.
>> Nope, not one has ever burst here, and dont when you put them in the freezer either.
> You're lying again. You never did it.
Have you the remotest idea how pathetic you look in the eyes of someone who has done what they said ?
Obviously not.
Rod Speed
> john hamilton wrote
>> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on the top.
> Why do people prefer chest freezers?
They can be cheaper for the same capacity than uprights,
because there is fuck all in the way of shelves etc in them
and the lid is easier to make etc.
> Uprights take up less floor space (you can't stack stuff on top of your
> chest freezer), and with a moderately full freezer, you have remove a
> bunch of stuff to get what you're looking for - even if you can find it at all.
Yeah, they're a fucked approach to freezers, tho the floor space isnt
necessarily a problem if you're stupid enough to not have it in the kitchen.
> How may times have we heard the comment "Found xyz in my chest
> freezer. I think it's nnn years old.". And then possibly "is it still good?"
You get the same thing with uprights too.
The Real Bev
> In article<hu4eqh$96h$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, The Real Bev<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 06/01/10 19:00, Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>>> Lou Decruss<LouDe...@biteme.com> wrote:
>>>>spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>>>> spamtrap1888<spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>>>>
>>>>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>>>
>>>>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>>>>insist on a chest freezer.
>>>
>>> I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
>>> consider a chest freezer.
>>
>>The cold doesn't leak out when you open the door.
>
> That's basically irrelevant. You *might* lose five to ten cubic feet of cold
> air when opening an upright freezer -- let's call it ten. Ten cubic feet of
> air has a mass of around one pound. That's not going to make any noticeable
> difference in the temperature inside, unless you *leave* the door open.
Frugal people automatically consider efficiency and waste, no matter how tiny
or trivial. We may decide to ignore it, but if everything else is equal
there's no point in NOT wasting something.
>>> That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
>>> all kinds of crap on top of...
>>
>>And you think that's a bad thing?
>
> Makes it kinda hard to open the lid.
>
>>Invest in one of those nice sturdy chrome
>>rolling shelf units -- when you need something in the freezer just roll it
>>away. If that won't fit around the freezer, hang shelves or cabinets above it.
>
> Or just get an upright freezer.
That's what my mom did, for convenience. She filled any excess space with jugs
of water.
>>Horizontal space should NEVER be wasted.
>
> Which of course is yet another reason for *not* getting a chest freezer: it
> takes up twice as much floor space as an upright.
You're right. If I ever buy a freezer (possibly around the time that it will no
longer be needed because hell has frozen over) I'll get an upright. You can
stack LOTS of crap on an upright...
--
Cheers, Bev
---------------------------------------
That's my opinion. Ought to be yours.
Doug Miller
Obviously you haven't actually done it, or you would have seen the cartons
burst.
>
>> Either:
>> a) you never did it at all
>> b) you didn't actually *fill* the cartons
>> c) you're lying about them not bursting.
>
>d) you dont have a fucking clue and others have said the same as I have.
e) You're *still* lying.
<plonk>
Sqwertz
> Sqwertz wrote
>
>> How may times have we heard the comment "Found xyz in my chest
>> freezer. I think it's nnn years old.". And then possibly "is it still good?"
>
> You get the same thing with uprights too.
You can see what's in your upright a lot easier than you can see
what's in your chest freezer. Plus you can organize things so you
know where they are.
-sw
h
> You're right. If I ever buy a freezer (possibly around the time that it
> will no longer be needed because hell has frozen over) I'll get an
> upright. You can stack LOTS of crap on an upright...
I guess I need to get more crap. I have tons of wasted horizontal space and
nothing with which to fill it.
The Natural Philosopher
> On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 17:20:17 +0100, john hamilton wrote:
>
>> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on
>> the top.
>
> Why do people prefer chest freezers?
Because when you open them, the cold air stays in.
GregS
Dry out and flavor, is my concern both refridgerator and freezer.
I have not run into any self defrosting unit without a fan.
We are talking about self defrosting.
greg
Ohioguy
seems easier to access everything inside. In fact, I'd hazard a guess
that since you don't have to take as much time to lift things out of the
freezer and out of the way to get things that are underneath, an upright
could very well actually save money.
This is especially true if you bother to put something like a dry
erase chalkboard on the front. When you stock it up with things, mark
them on the board. Then dry erase them when you get them out. It will
give you an instant, visual reference.
Want some frozen rhubarb, corn or steaks? Look on the front of the
freezer, and you'll instantly know whether it is even worth opening the
door or not.
*browsing* is what eats up the coal & increases your electricity bill.
John Weks
Obviously not.
> <plonk>
Fat lot of good that will do you, you stupid plonker.
Rod Speed
>>>>> MORE efficient.
>>>>> more efficiency,.
>>>> Thats a myth.
>>> Wrong.
>> Nope.
>>> I know by use.
>> You clearly dont.
>> Sounds like overkill.
Yes, but thats trivially fixable. Just put the meat in plastic bags when
still wet so the plastic sticks to the meat, you dont get freezer burn.
Get proper containers for the other stuff, I use glass jars that marmalade, relish etc comes in.
Get decent a frost free fridge so there never is any frost forming on the
food and there is no heating of the food when auto defrosting either.
> I have not run into any self defrosting unit without a fan.
I didnt say self defrosting without a fan. I JUST said no fan. There are plenty of those.
> We are talking about self defrosting.
Nope. There is also frost free.
Rod Speed
> I greatly prefer the convenience of an upright freezer - it just seems easier to access everything inside.
Yeah, me too.
> In fact, I'd hazard a guess that since you don't have to take as much time to lift things out of the freezer and out
> of the way to get things that are underneath, an upright could very well actually save money.
I doubt it. There is so much mass of frozen stuff in a
freezer that I doubt the effect of a bit longer with the lid
open in a chest freezer is even measurable efficiency wise.
> This is especially true if you bother to put something like a dry erase chalkboard on the front.
I have a proper database and a laptop in the kitchen.
> When you stock it up with things, mark them on the board. Then dry erase them when you get them out. It will give you
> an instant, visual reference.
A database is much better, mine has hundreds of items in it
with a date on each and when I use something, it auto pops
up the recipie and auto sets the alarm timers for the times
in the recipie. Works very elegantly indeed for the more
complex stuff like roast lamb and baked potatoes etc.
> Want some frozen rhubarb, corn or steaks? Look on the front of the freezer, and you'll instantly know whether it is
> even worth opening the door or not.
A database works much better.
> *browsing* is what eats up the coal & increases your electricity bill.
I doubt the effect is very great, essentially because the mass of frozen stuff is so great.
Vic Smith
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Ohioguy wrote:
>
>> I greatly prefer the convenience of an upright freezer - it just seems easier to access everything inside.
>
>Yeah, me too.
>
>> In fact, I'd hazard a guess that since you don't have to take as much time to lift things out of the freezer and out
>> of the way to get things that are underneath, an upright could very well actually save money.
>
>I doubt it. There is so much mass of frozen stuff in a
>freezer that I doubt the effect of a bit longer with the lid
>open in a chest freezer is even measurable efficiency wise.
>
>> This is especially true if you bother to put something like a dry erase chalkboard on the front.
>
>I have a proper database and a laptop in the kitchen.
>
So you say. Oracle based SAP "Cooking" module I suppose.
>> When you stock it up with things, mark them on the board. Then dry erase them when you get them out. It will give you
>> an instant, visual reference.
>
>A database is much better, mine has hundreds of items in it
>with a date on each and when I use something, it auto pops
>up the recipie and auto sets the alarm timers for the times
>in the recipie. Works very elegantly indeed for the more
>complex stuff like roast lamb and baked potatoes etc.
>
Database, eh? What you've said is utterly stupid.
Only a truly lame nerd would so complicate keeping food and cooking up
a meal.
And no revenge for you either, nerd.
Trouble cooking lamb and spuds, eh?
Elegant? You hammering a keyboard in an attempt to first find, then
figure how to cook lamb and spuds "elegant?"
Think again.
Just shows the complete and utter stupidity of a man without a wife,
who would do all that in a trice and without a thought while handling
a few other chores at the same time.
Bet your computer generated food is horrible too. But I'm sure you're
convinced it's great stuff.
Rod Speed
>>> I greatly prefer the convenience of an upright freezer
>>> - it just seems easier to access everything inside.
>> Yeah, me too.
>>> In fact, I'd hazard a guess that since you don't have to take as much
>>> time to lift things out of the freezer and out of the way to get things
>>> that are underneath, an upright could very well actually save money.
>> I doubt it. There is so much mass of frozen stuff in a
>> freezer that I doubt the effect of a bit longer with the lid
>> open in a chest freezer is even measurable efficiency wise.
>>> This is especially true if you bother to put something like a dry erase chalkboard on the front.
>> I have a proper database and a laptop in the kitchen.
> So you say. Oracle based SAP "Cooking" module I suppose.
Guess again.
>>> When you stock it up with things, mark them on the board.
>>> Then dry erase them when you get them out. It will give
>>> you an instant, visual reference.
>> A database is much better, mine has hundreds of items in it
>> with a date on each and when I use something, it auto pops
>> up the recipie and auto sets the alarm timers for the times
>> in the recipie. Works very elegantly indeed for the more
>> complex stuff like roast lamb and baked potatoes etc.
> Database, eh?
Yep.
> What you've said is utterly stupid.
You shouldnt be so hard on yourself.
> Only a truly lame nerd would so complicate keeping food and cooking up a meal.
Nothing complicated about it, fool.
> And no revenge for you either, nerd.
> Trouble cooking lamb and spuds, eh?
Nope, just convenient to have the various timers involved happen completely auto, fuckwit.
> Elegant? You hammering a keyboard
Dont use the keyboard at all, fuckwit.
> in an attempt to first find, then figure how to cook lamb and spuds
Dont do that either, fuckwit.
> "elegant?" Think again.
Something you cant manage. Ear to ear dog shit cant do anything like that.
> Just shows the complete and utter stupidity of a man without
> a wife, who would do all that in a trice and without a thought
> while handling a few other chores at the same time.
And costs a hell of a lot more than the laptop, fuckwit.
> Bet your computer generated food is horrible too.
Guess which pathetic little pollack fuckwit has just gone face down in the mud, yet again ?
> But I'm sure you're convinced it's great stuff.
Leaves the shit you get stuck with for dead.
Rod Speed
>>> Yeah, me too.
> Guess again.
>> Database, eh?
> Yep.
There is quite a bit that benefits from a proper scheduled system.
The start time depends on the weight of the leg of lamb, because
the cooking time varys with the weight and you normally want to
have it ready to eat at a particular time. So its handy to just punch
in the weight and have the system remind you when to start the leg.
Then its handy to have it tell you when to boost the oven temp and
start the roast potatoes. And when the pototoes need to be turned.
And when its time to start the peas and corn and gravy.
You're so stupid that you cant grasp that its convenient
to automate those reminders ? Your problem.
The Real Bev
Where are you located? I can loan you all you need.
--
Cheers, Bev
========================================================
"We're so far beyond fucked we couldn't even catch a bus
back to fucked." --Scott en Aztlan
The Real Bev
RFID technology has come a long way. Perhaps labeling each package with one
would make keeping track of the inventory a lot easier.
--
Cheers, Bev
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
If you're ever about to be mugged by a couple
of clowns, don't hesitate - go for the juggler.
Vic Smith
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Rod Speed wrote
>
>> Nope, just convenient to have the various timers involved happen completely auto, fuckwit.
>
>There is quite a bit that benefits from a proper scheduled system.
>
>The start time depends on the weight of the leg of lamb, because
>the cooking time varys with the weight and you normally want to
>have it ready to eat at a particular time. So its handy to just punch
>in the weight and have the system remind you when to start the leg.
>
>Then its handy to have it tell you when to boost the oven temp and
>start the roast potatoes. And when the pototoes need to be turned.
>And when its time to start the peas and corn and gravy.
>
Answering yourself as you dig toward China, eh?
Making it up as you go along.
The rest of your nonsense tossed in the disposal where your
computer-aided food should go before it affronts a human nose.
Computer telling you when to turn potatoes. For Christ's sake.
I suppose that computer's teeth tells you when pasta is al dente too.
What a non-cooking nerd you are. Don't try to deny it.
Stick to throwing a shrimp on the barbie so you just screw up a good
shrimp now and then.
Vic Smith
<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 06/03/10 11:12, Vic Smith wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 4 Jun 2010 03:44:22 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> A database is much better, mine has hundreds of items in it with a date on
>>> each and when I use something, it auto pops up the recipie and auto sets
>>> the alarm timers for the times in the recipie. Works very elegantly indeed
>>> for the more complex stuff like roast lamb and baked potatoes etc.
>>
>> Database, eh? What you've said is utterly stupid. Only a truly lame nerd
>> would so complicate keeping food and cooking up a meal. And no revenge for
>> you either, nerd. Trouble cooking lamb and spuds, eh? Elegant? You
>> hammering a keyboard in an attempt to first find, then figure how to cook
>> lamb and spuds "elegant?" Think again. Just shows the complete and utter
>> stupidity of a man without a wife, who would do all that in a trice and
>> without a thought while handling a few other chores at the same time. Bet
>> your computer generated food is horrible too. But I'm sure you're convinced
>> it's great stuff.
>
>RFID technology has come a long way. Perhaps labeling each package with one
>would make keeping track of the inventory a lot easier.
Maybe for Rod. I don't need a computer to keep track of and cook my
food. My wife does that with her smart head.
Doubt the average consumer would want to pay for his stupidity either.
Of course he'll weigh in with his own face-saving BS, and maybe
mention his computerized shopping list.
My wife is the chef in a corporate cafeteria feeding 2-300 entrees
each day with always changing menus, and finds it trivial to keep
track of the food with simple penned sticker labeling.
If Rod wasn't so addled he'd figure out how to do that for his
lonesome.
But he's not a cook, just a computer fanatic, so I give him a pass.
There's always somebody who wants to "improve" things by making them
500% more costly to gain a 30% loss in efficiency.
But it's amusing to hear how the computer prepares a meal for him.
You're a dangerous thinker. I'll warn my wife to look out for their
suppliers to push RFID chips and readers. Proprietary readers no
doubt. It could happen. But they could only justify it as preventing
waste by not letting food expire, which is already prevented by
rotation at her place.
Rod Speed
>>> Nope, just convenient to have the various timers involved happen completely auto, fuckwit.
>> There is quite a bit that benefits from a proper scheduled system.
>> The start time depends on the weight of the leg of lamb, because
>> the cooking time varys with the weight and you normally want to
>> have it ready to eat at a particular time. So its handy to just punch
>> in the weight and have the system remind you when to start the leg.
>> Then its handy to have it tell you when to boost the oven temp and
>> start the roast potatoes. And when the pototoes need to be turned.
>> And when its time to start the peas and corn and gravy.
>> You're so stupid that you cant grasp that its convenient
>> to automate those reminders ? Your problem.
> Answering yourself as you dig toward China, eh?
> Making it up as you go along.
You never ever could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.
Just another fuckwit pollack with ear to ear dog shit.
<reams of your puerile silly shit any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed where it belongs>
Rod Speed
Your fuckwit 'wife' costs a hell of a lot more than the laptop, fuckwit.
h
"The Real Bev" <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hu97pu$ofo$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 06/03/10 06:06, h wrote:
>
>>> You're right. If I ever buy a freezer (possibly around the time that it
>>> will no longer be needed because hell has frozen over) I'll get an
>>> upright. You can stack LOTS of crap on an upright...
>>
>> I guess I need to get more crap. I have tons of wasted horizontal space
>> and
>> nothing with which to fill it.
>
> Where are you located? I can loan you all you need.
>
Heh. Both DH and I work at home, and between the shared office, my
workspace, and the 3 cats molting in the heat, I have all the crap I can
handle :)
It helps that I've had the "do you love it, need it, or does it make you
money" theory on all possessions for many, many years. If I can't answer
with at least one "yes", out it goes. At least once a year we have a car
full of stuff to cart off to the Salvie. I didn't even know other people
used this concept until I watched an episode of "Hoarders" on tv.
Apparently, that's the motto of the professional organizer. Who knew? My
feeling is just because I have space for it doesn't mean I need to keep it.
Fake ID
Sqwertz <swe...@cluemail.compost> wrote:
>On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 17:20:17 +0100, john hamilton wrote:
>
>> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on
>> the top.
>
>Why do people prefer chest freezers? Uprights take up less floor
>space (you can't stack stuff on top of your chest freezer), and
>with a moderately full freezer, you have remove a bunch of stuff
>to get what you're looking for - even if you can find it at all.
Since I was in Big Box today I took a look at the freezers (I suspect
mine is the source of a abrupt spike in electric usage). After seeing
the upright models it occurred to me that when a check freezer is full,
it's *really* full because all the crap is a big pile, while a full
upright will still have air because the contents are unlikely exactly
match the shelf spacing.
The comments about how the air spills out of an upright had me wondering
whether the [closed] door and its gasket insulates as well as a solid
wall.
m
Rod Speed
> Sqwertz <swe...@cluemail.compost> wrote
>> john hamilton wrote
>>> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on the top.
>> Why do people prefer chest freezers? Uprights take up less floor
>> space (you can't stack stuff on top of your chest freezer), and
>> with a moderately full freezer, you have remove a bunch of stuff
>> to get what you're looking for - even if you can find it at all.
> Since I was in Big Box today I took a look at the freezers (I
> suspect mine is the source of a abrupt spike in electric usage).
Whats its efficiency rating ?
> After seeing the upright models it occurred to me that when
> a check freezer is full, it's *really* full because all the crap is
> a big pile, while a full upright will still have air because the
> contents are unlikely exactly match the shelf spacing.
Yes, but that air makes no difference to the effeciency of the freezer.
> The comments about how the air spills out of an upright had me wondering
> whether the [closed] door and its gasket insulates as well as a solid wall.
Yes it does if its well designed and the gasket is replaced when it starts to leak.
dennis@home
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:86vicv...@mid.individual.net...
> Yes, but that air makes no difference to the effeciency of the freezer.
It does when you open the door, that free air leaks out and is replaced by
nice warm moist air that has to be cooled.
If you don't open the door it makes no difference.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> After seeing the upright models it occurred to me that when
>>> a check freezer is full, it's really full because all the crap is
>>> a big pile, while a full upright will still have air because the
>>> contents are unlikely exactly match the shelf spacing.
>> Yes, but that air makes no difference to the effeciency of the freezer.
> It does when you open the door, that free air leaks out and is replaced by nice warm moist air that has to be cooled.
In practice thats a trivial effect because the specific gravity of the air is so low.
You get a much bigger effect when you add new stuff to the freezer.
> If you don't open the door it makes no difference.
So his original makes no sense.
dennis@home
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:86vqb...@mid.individual.net...
> dennis@home wrote:
>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>>> After seeing the upright models it occurred to me that when
>>>> a check freezer is full, it's really full because all the crap is
>>>> a big pile, while a full upright will still have air because the
>>>> contents are unlikely exactly match the shelf spacing.
>
>>> Yes, but that air makes no difference to the effeciency of the freezer.
>
>> It does when you open the door, that free air leaks out and is replaced
>> by nice warm moist air that has to be cooled.
>
> In practice thats a trivial effect because the specific gravity of the air
> is so low.
Its that low that it ices up your freezer.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> dennis@home wrote:
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> After seeing the upright models it occurred to me that when
>>>>> a check freezer is full, it's really full because all the crap is
>>>>> a big pile, while a full upright will still have air because the
>>>>> contents are unlikely exactly match the shelf spacing.
>>>> Yes, but that air makes no difference to the effeciency of the freezer.
>>> It does when you open the door, that free air leaks out and is
>>> replaced by nice warm moist air that has to be cooled.
>> In practice thats a trivial effect because the specific gravity of the air is so low.
> Its that low that it ices up your freezer.
Nope, that mostly comes from what is in the freezer and happens in chest freezers anyway.
dennis@home
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:86vt6p...@mid.individual.net...
It happens faster in uprights.
If it came from the contents they would all suffer from freezer burn big
time and freezers would be useless for storing food.
Doug Miller
>
>
>"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:86vicv...@mid.individual.net...
>
>
>> Yes, but that air makes no difference to the effeciency of the freezer.
>
>It does when you open the door, that free air leaks out and is replaced by
>nice warm moist air that has to be cooled.
Do you *really* think that the entry of a few ounces of room-temperature air
makes a measurable difference in the temperature of several hundred pounds of
frozen food?
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> dennis@home wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> dennis@home wrote:
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> After seeing the upright models it occurred to me that when
>>>>>>> a check freezer is full, it's really full because all the crap
>>>>>>> is a big pile, while a full upright will still have air because
>>>>>>> the contents are unlikely exactly match the shelf spacing.
>>>>>> Yes, but that air makes no difference to the effeciency of the freezer.
>>>>> It does when you open the door, that free air leaks out and is replaced by nice warm moist air that has to be
>>>>> cooled.
>>>> In practice thats a trivial effect because the specific gravity of the air is so low.
>>> Its that low that it ices up your freezer.
>> Nope, that mostly comes from what is in the freezer and happens in chest freezers anyway.
> It happens faster in uprights.
Not with the frost free ones it doesnt.
> If it came from the contents they would all suffer from freezer burn big time and freezers would be useless for
> storing food.
Wrong, as always.
atec7 7
>>> Nope, that mostly comes from what is in the freezer and happens in chest freezers anyway.
>
>> It happens faster in uprights.
>
> Not with the frost free ones it doesnt.
Experience tells me as usual you are wrong woddles
>
>> If it came from the contents they would all suffer from freezer burn big time and freezers would be useless for
>> storing food.
>
> Wrong, as always.
As usual you couldn't bullshite your was out of a wet paper nag
>
>
dennis@home
"Doug Miller" <spam...@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:huev2l$1ij$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
No, we are talking efficiency not effectiveness.
dennis@home
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:870n0t...@mid.individual.net...
> dennis@home wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> dennis@home wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> dennis@home wrote:
>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>>>>>>> After seeing the upright models it occurred to me that when
>>>>>>>> a check freezer is full, it's really full because all the crap
>>>>>>>> is a big pile, while a full upright will still have air because
>>>>>>>> the contents are unlikely exactly match the shelf spacing.
>
>>>>>>> Yes, but that air makes no difference to the effeciency of the
>>>>>>> freezer.
>
>>>>>> It does when you open the door, that free air leaks out and is
>>>>>> replaced by nice warm moist air that has to be cooled.
>
>>>>> In practice thats a trivial effect because the specific gravity of the
>>>>> air is so low.
>
>>>> Its that low that it ices up your freezer.
>
>>> Nope, that mostly comes from what is in the freezer and happens in chest
>>> freezers anyway.
>
>> It happens faster in uprights.
>
> Not with the frost free ones it doesnt.
So what, they still use more energy to removing the water vapour that comes
in with the air.
>
>> If it came from the contents they would all suffer from freezer burn big
>> time and freezers would be useless for storing food.
>
> Wrong, as always.
>
Don't say stupid things, it is a statement of fact, if the ice comes from
the food then they dehydrate, this is freezer burn.
Doug Miller
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> dennis@home wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> dennis@home wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> dennis@home wrote:
>>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>>>> After seeing the upright models it occurred to me that when
>>>>>>>>> a check freezer is full, it's really full because all the crap
>>>>>>>>> is a big pile, while a full upright will still have air because the contents are unlikely exactly match the
>>>>>>>>> shelf spacing.
>>>>>>>> Yes, but that air makes no difference to the effeciency of the freezer.
>>>>>>> It does when you open the door, that free air leaks out and is replaced by nice warm moist air that has to be
>>>>>>> cooled.
>>>>>> In practice thats a trivial effect because the specific gravity of the air is so low.
>>>>> Its that low that it ices up your freezer.
>>>> Nope, that mostly comes from what is in the freezer and happens in chest freezers anyway.
>>> It happens faster in uprights.
>> Not with the frost free ones it doesnt.
> So what,
So your claim about frost in uprights is just plain wrong with frost free uprights.
> they still use more energy to removing the water vapour that comes in with the air.
But that isnt enough to matter, much less than the energy
required to freeze the contents of the freezer in the first place
and to pump out what leaks in thru the insulation all the time.
Yes, uprights are a little less efficient than chest freezers, but
when you allow for the difficulty of access to the contents of a chest
freezer compared with an upright, there is fuck all in it in practice.
>>> If it came from the contents they would all suffer from freezer
>>> burn big time and freezers would be useless for storing food.
>> Wrong, as always.
> Don't say stupid things, it is a statement of fact,
Nope.
> if the ice comes from the food then they dehydrate, this is freezer burn.
Nope, quite a bit of the time its just surface moisture on the food, not freezer burn.
dennis@home
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:87288q...@mid.individual.net...
See I was correct.
Rod Speed
>>> So what,
> See I was correct.
Like hell you were.
Grey Mouse
"john hamilton" <blue...@mail.invalid> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:hu3c06$4pr$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on
> the top.
>
> the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at Ł260.
>
> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after
> the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not
> need defrosting as often as normal.
>
> Knowing that its just not easy to get an airtight seal, the suspicion is
> that it might draw the air out but; it will creep back in again anyway.
>
> Would anyone with experience of the Miele freezer know if its worth paying
> the extra Ł100 for this 'de-frost' feature. In other words does it work
> as a means of cutting out defrosting? Thanks for any advice.
>