replacing a muffler on 1994 Dodge Caravan
Ohioguy
rattling sound while it ran. I took a look at the underneath, and found
a U-bolt at the front of the muffler that had essentially rusted
through. It was hanging a bit loosely.
I then noticed some rust spots on the muffler itself. I pushed
against one, and my finger went through. Now we can smell the exhaust
when standing next to the vehicle. Obviously, the muffler needs to be
replaced.
We have a 1994 Dodge Caravan SE 3 Liter. I've read that if I took it
someplace like Midas, it would probably cost us $160-$260 to replace.
I've looked online and found mufflers ranging from $35 to $150. Most
of them seem to be "performance" mufflers, which I gather are loud, but
give the engine a little more power, and slightly better fuel mileage.
What I'd like is something close to the original one. I'm wondering
if anyone here has experience with this sort of thing.
Questions:
1) how difficult is it to replace a muffler?
2) are any special tools needed?
3) is there a good muffler company online that sells only quality
mufflers at a good price?
4) Is it worth doing this project on your own, rather than paying a
place like Midas or Muffler Brothers?
I've never done this before, but if it is a fairly straightforward
job of less than 2 hours, I might consider doing it. I just want to
make sure I don't get something that is the wrong size, and I'd really
prefer a quieter muffler - not a "performance" one.
Thanks!
Rod Speed
> We started noticing our van sounding louder, and even a slight
> rattling sound while it ran. I took a look at the underneath, and
> found a U-bolt at the front of the muffler that had essentially rusted
> through. It was hanging a bit loosely.
> I then noticed some rust spots on the muffler itself. I pushed against one, and my finger went through. Now we can
> smell the exhaust when standing next to the vehicle. Obviously, the muffler needs to be replaced.
> We have a 1994 Dodge Caravan SE 3 Liter. I've read that if I took
> it someplace like Midas, it would probably cost us $160-$260 to replace.
> I've looked online and found mufflers ranging from $35 to $150. Most of them seem to be "performance" mufflers,
> which I gather are
> loud, but give the engine a little more power, and slightly better
> fuel mileage.
> What I'd like is something close to the original one. I'm wondering
> if anyone here has experience with this sort of thing.
> Questions:
> 1) how difficult is it to replace a muffler?
Its not necessarily that easy to get the old one off the pipe.
> 2) are any special tools needed?
Yeah, if it wont come off the pipe.
> 3) is there a good muffler company online that sells only quality
> mufflers at a good price?
Nope.
> 4) Is it worth doing this project on your own, rather than paying a place like Midas or Muffler Brothers?
Really depends on how easy it is to get the old one off.
> I've never done this before, but if it is a fairly straightforward
> job of less than 2 hours, I might consider doing it. I just want to
> make sure I don't get something that is the wrong size, and I'd really prefer a quieter muffler - not a "performance"
> one.
I've always paid more for a stainless steel muffler that lasts much longer.
In fact I only ever changed the muffler once on the Golf I kept for 35+ years.
Al
As a general rule, farming exhaust work out to professionals is the
way to go. This is because the labor is such a small part of the job
when they have the right equipment such as a hoist, torch, air chisels
and impact tools. You don't have these tools. Changing a muffler can
be done somewhat easily if there is good access from below and it does
not go under framework and such. I believe your vehicle is reasonably
simple. If that clamp you call a U-clamp has not fallen off, you can
put a wrench on the nut and it will break off as you try to loosen it.
It takes a little strength to do that. The important thing is you need
to get the muffler off without damaging pipes on either side of it.
The muffler is rusted in place and won't merely fall off when
unclamped. You could get really lucky but often a DIY person will have
to cut it off without a torch. Sometimes I have used a jig saw or
Sazall to get the main part of the muffler out of the way so I could
work. You have to be careful to cut far enough back so you don't cut
those other pipes. When one pipe fits over another, I use a cutoff
tool to slice a lengthwise slot in the pipe so I can open it up or
twist the pipe off. This is dirty hard work for a homeowner and may
not be possible for you. However, if you are really lucky and it
almost falls off by itself, you could save money. Inspect the entire
length of the system. The rest of the pipes probably have holes in
them too.
Al
PS. The reason those quotes are up in the $260 range is because they
suspect that the entire cat back system needs to be replaced.
Al
As a temporary measure you could put a new clamp on there for a buck
or two and just let the other clamp hand there. If the holes in the
muffler are on the main length portion which is round or elliptical,
you can take sheet metal and attach it with clamps around the muffler.
I have clamps that are long enough to go all the way around, but you
can use radiator type hose clamps concatenated to get the needed
length. If the holes are on the end plates, the situation is more
difficult to seal. You can use muffler putty. Forget about those
aftermarket kits that have material that supposed to seal when heated.
They don't work for me anyway.
The real solution is probably a complete new system and then you are
done with it for years and it will be safer for the family.
Rod Speed
>>> Questions:
>> Nope.
Or they are playing safe and including that in the quote.
If they are honest, they wont charge for that if it isnt required.
Al
True enough. The guy calls in that he needs a muffler on a 15 year old
crate. They have to assume the worst or in this case the most likely.
And they did say "up to $260." It won't seem so bad if OG can
understand how various repairs are priced in a shop. Many repairs end
up being about 50/50 parts and labor. For a waterpump, the job might
be $350 and only $50 is for the part. It's labor intensive. However,
exhaust work is parts intensive. A shop could replace OG's entire
system in half an hour and have time for a coffee break. The money is
in the parts. If OG priced out a complete system for parts it might be
about $200. They have to make some money on the parts to cover the
overhead.
In many ways installing a complete system in your driveway is easier
than peacemealing one part. You just cut everything off and the new
parts go up easily. I don't think OG is up to this task. I realize he
has a backup vehicle to depend on, but he's saving that for the
nuclear event.
My bottom line is to suggest OG actually take the vehicle to a shop
where a professional can inspect the system. Beyond the visual, they
can use a tool that clamps on the pipe in various places and
determines the thickness, strength and integrity of the parts. If a
miracle has happened and only the muffler needs replacing, take some
of the savings and purchase a power ball ticket ASAP.
Shawn Hirn
Ohioguy <no...@none.net> wrote:
> We started noticing our van sounding louder, and even a slight
> rattling sound while it ran. I took a look at the underneath, and found
> a U-bolt at the front of the muffler that had essentially rusted
> through. It was hanging a bit loosely.
Try posting your question on the rec.autos.driving.chrysler newsgroup.
Ohioguy
1- muffler brothers - probably about $160
2 - my neighbor, who works on brakes, mufflers and such, says he will be
home with his kids this weekend, and they would enjoy working on
something like this. He has an air chisel, and various other tools that
could be needed, depending on how easy things come apart. I think my
son would also enjoy working on something like this, so it would be a
learning/fun project for several of us. I checked locally, and I can
get a muffler for $50-$60. Then I could give my neighbor $50 for the
trouble, and buy a couple of pizzas for everybody, and STILL end up
saving about 50 bucks. I'm sort of tempted to go this second route.
Oh, and yes, we have the '69 Ford Econoline as a backup vehicle, but
also have a 2001 Buick. Having 1 vehicle out of commission for a week
is not much trouble.
Al
Remember, you have a 15 year old vehicle. If you don't know the age of
those other parts, they almost certainly need changing also or will
very soon and the newer muffler might get damaged in that scenario.
This is not really an educational type of repair. It's just dirty and
messy. If you have a child under 16, it could also be a source of
danger for him and irresponsible to the hilt on your part. I'm not
surprised one bit either. The pizza itself is a serious enough health
risk.
Based upon your own numbers you will have $125 in this repair. I can
only conclude that your time is worth almost nothing.
a real cheapskate
>
> - Show quoted text -
replace everything from the conveter on back, its all rusted together
etc.
the larger hassle is getting the vehicle high enough and the
suspension free enough to get the new main pipe in.
its easy with a sawzall to cut the old pipe into pieces. but hard to
snake the new pipe in place
Rod Speed
> I have 2 options now:
>
> 1- muffler brothers - probably about $160
>
> 2 - my neighbor, who works on brakes, mufflers and such, says he will
> be home with his kids this weekend, and they would enjoy working on
> something like this. He has an air chisel, and various other tools
> that could be needed, depending on how easy things come apart. I
> think my son would also enjoy working on something like this, so it
> would be a learning/fun project for several of us. I checked
> locally, and I can get a muffler for $50-$60. Then I could give my
> neighbor $50 for the trouble, and buy a couple of pizzas for
> everybody, and STILL end up saving about 50 bucks. I'm sort of
> tempted to go this second route.
I'd certainly go that route myself, except that I'd get a decent stainless
steel muffler to maximise the time when you need to do it again if you
are likely to still have that car at the time a cheapy will need replacing.
> Oh, and yes, we have the '69 Ford Econoline as a backup vehicle, but
> also have a 2001 Buick. Having 1 vehicle out of commission for a week
> is not much trouble.
Yeah, its a pain doing major work without something to run around and get parts with etc.
Al
OG obviously has zero automotive repair experience in this area
anyway. He does not realize what has happened under there after all
these years. I'd love to inspect all three of his vehicles. I can
almost promise there are several pending issues and safety defects. At
least with the front wheel drive on the Caravan, he would not have to
worry about a rear axle.
I just checked NAPA and there Quiet Flow muffler is $129. The other
parts are quite expensive too. This is going to be interesting if we
ever hear the final result of this venture.
Ohioguy
to retailers. Got a decent muffler, mount and clamps for a grand total
of $55, including tax. The place is only 2 miles from here, and I've
put the receipt in the box.
If we have trouble getting the old muffler off or anything like that,
I'll just take this back for a refund. Muffler Brothers down the street
quoted me $118 with tax if "all we need to do is the muffler". I'll
take that with a grain of salt, and figure they would have added on
another $20, so I'll say $138. However, I just got a coupon for $15 off
$100 at Muffler Brothers, so I'll just say the job should cost me $123
or less if I need to go that route.
Bc112
>
> 1- muffler brothers - probably about $160
>
> 2 - my neighbor, who works on brakes, mufflers and such, says he will be
> home with his kids this weekend, and they would enjoy working on
> something like this. He has an air chisel, and various other tools that
> could be needed, depending on how easy things come apart. I think my
> son would also enjoy working on something like this, so it would be a
> learning/fun project for several of us. I checked locally, and I can
> get a muffler for $50-$60. Then I could give my neighbor $50 for the
> trouble, and buy a couple of pizzas for everybody, and STILL end up
> saving about 50 bucks. I'm sort of tempted to go this second route.
Your third option would be to drive it off a cliff.
Make sure your computer is also in the van when you do.
Al
OG, just as a point of reference here, you are majoring in minors. By
your own numbers, you have almost nothing to save on this deal. You
have already spent way more time than it would take to do the job
professionally. I could do it in less time myself, but you cannot. And
what kind of neighbor works all week doing brakes and mufflers and
would be delighted to come home and work on the weekend too only on
the ground with poor conditions? Something is way too fishy about that
statement. You have a good deal waiting for you down the street, but
your distrust of professionals keeps you at home doing the work in a
non-professional way. Meanwhile, you could have used your time working
at a real job or looking for one. This is no way for a man to live,
son.
Al
If it has not happened already, he's probably looking at a new
transmission around the corner. Those vehicles are notorious for the
repeat tranny rebuilds. And ironically, many of the failures come from
people putting the wrong fluid in them. I've seen shops doing it and
wondering why they keep having to redo the same units. Well, OG will
let us know how it all comes out.
Let me see here. He takes the Muffler Brother's quote of $160 and
subtracts $60 for his retail purchase and another $50 for the
neighbor. That leaves $50 and he says he's still saving $50. He must
have coupons for FREE pizzas. Fuzzy math is where this whole thread
started.
Ohioguy
>would be delighted to come home and work on the weekend too
No, you don't understand - my neighbor lost his job a while back, and
right now all he has is unemployment. He says he may lose his house as
well. I figured that I would rather help out my neighbor with some $$,
instead of the local chain, even if I don't actually save any money
myself. Of course, I don't want to actually spend MORE going this
route, but I don't mind spending about the same, or a little less.
When you pay a chain store to do the work, the money disappears to
taxes, franchise fees, etc. If I pay my neighbor, he gets some money
for food, gas, etc.
clams_casino
>
>
> When you pay a chain store to do the work, the money disappears to
> taxes, franchise fees, etc. If I pay my neighbor, he gets some money
> for food, gas, etc.
And cheats on taxes. How honest. How convenient.
Marsha
There will be a lot more people working under the table, thanks to
excessive taxation to support all the "social programs" for those who
can, but won't, work. Not saying it's right, just predicting.
Marsha
Al
Well, I understand your position more now, but that last paragraph is
just silly.
When you pay the neighbor under the table he avoids paying legal taxes
and helps put the poor guy working at the retail store out of a job
eventually. Maybe the whole store closes if people do all their own
work. And let's face the truth, you are trying to save a penny here,
not perform any humanitarian act of feeding the neighbor nor training
the kids on how to get dirty.
PS. My DIY tip of the day. If you have trouble getting two pipes
apart, you can bypass that step by simply cutting behind the
connection and using an adapter extension to put it back together. To
do this you must know the exact size of the pipe OD and ID on your
system. Do not cut anything from the converter because those adapters
are expensive and hard to find.
Al
With the tough economy, I thought repair shops were doing well keeping
the old iron running. People can defer muffler work, but brakes are
more pressing. Somehow this ASE certified brake and exhaust technician
is unemployed. Hey, lots of engineers are unemployed too. I'm just
saying a shop usually does not let their most productive employees go.
He should be able to handle a muffler though with that pizza dangling
in front of him.
Next post: Does anyone know a dirt cheap home recipe for pizza?
Rod Speed
> On Nov 29, 6:48 am, Ohioguy <n...@none.net> wrote:
>>> what kind of neighbor works all week doing brakes and mufflers and
>>> would be delighted to come home and work on the weekend too
>>
>> No, you don't understand - my neighbor lost his job a while back, and
>> right now all he has is unemployment. He says he may lose his house
>> as well. I figured that I would rather help out my neighbor with
>> some $$, instead of the local chain, even if I don't actually save
>> any money myself. Of course, I don't want to actually spend MORE
>> going this route, but I don't mind spending about the same, or a
>> little less.
>>
>> When you pay a chain store to do the work, the money disappears to
>> taxes, franchise fees, etc. If I pay my neighbor, he gets some money
>> for food, gas, etc.
> Well, I understand your position more now,
And do have quite a bit of egg on your face too.
> but that last paragraph is just silly.
Nope.
> When you pay the neighbor under the table he avoids paying legal taxes
You dont know that the neighbour is avoiding paying legal taxes.
He's unlikely to be paying much in the way of income taxes if he's unemployed.
> and helps put the poor guy working at the retail store out of a job eventually.
Even sillier. There is never enough of that sort of thing to get the retail employees fired.
> Maybe the whole store closes if people do all their own work.
Or maybe there will never be enough doing that.
> And let's face the truth, you are trying to save a penny here,
> not perform any humanitarian act of feeding the neighbor nor
> training the kids on how to get dirty.
Thats nothing like the truth. He's doing both. And when he
can get the assistence of someone who knows what its
about, it is the best way to work out how to do it yourself.
Ohioguy
I'm not sure how I gave the impression that he used to be a brake and
exhaust technician - he actually worked as a machinist in a small tool
company. The tool company closed, and now he is looking for work. Many
of these jobs have disappeared around our area. If it had been 5 to 10
years ago, he could have instantly gotten a similar job at another shop,
with his experience.
The car experience he has just comes from doing brake work & under
car type repairs on the weekends over the past 10 years. Also, he has
spent a lot of time fixing and updating his own cars. At this point, he
is selling off a lot of his things to try to get by.
He has done brake work and other things for us in the past. I
figured I could learn a little bit, my son would also like to
participate, and yes, maybe I'll save a few bucks that I can stick in my
"PC Upgrade jar". Knowing that I'm helping my neighbor out makes me
feel even better about it. Plus, I always like an excuse to order pizza.
Al
The unemployment rate here is nearly 30%. People still seem to find
money for beer, cigarettes and pizza.
Be sure to report the denouement of this adventure.
Ohioguy
Ok, we did the project in about 3 hours Monday afternoon. My
neighbor and I were having a really hard time getting the old muffler
off, because it was really rusted together with the exhaust pipe on both
ends. He called a friend who used to do muffler work, and with his
help, plus an air powered chisel, a blow torch to heat up the pipe, and
swinging a sledgehammer, we pretty much managed to demolish the old
muffler, and then finally got the muffler and exhaust pipe out from
under the van.
At that point, once we could really get a good grip on things, we
were able to pull the old muffler off. The front came off easier (if
you can call that easy), but the rear part of the old muffler stubbornly
clung to the exhaust, until we used a grinder to make a couple of slits
along the sides of the exhaust pipe there. Then we finally vibrated
them apart, and finished it with slugs from the sledgehammer. My son
enjoyed watching it all, and spent some time smashing the old muffler
with the sledgehammer.
I ended up putting $55 in the parts, and gave each of the guys $20
for their trouble. I also ordered an extra large Papa John's 3 meat
pizza (used a coupon, of course) for us to chow down on after the
project, and then we reminisced about cars we had owned. Turned out
that I had owned a 1981 VW Rabbit Diesel, and one of the other fellows
had owned a 1983 VW Rabbit Diesel.
In the end, I saved $10 (or more, depending on what "extra" fees the
muffler shop might have tacked on), and I placed that $10 into my jar
for computer upgrades. I also got to know a couple of the local guys
better, and now I have a much better understanding of the exhaust
system. Got some pizza out of it as well, and probably wouldn't have
from taking it to the shop. Oh, and I supported the local economy by
buying $55 in parts from an independent wholesaler, and giving $40 to a
couple of guys. I'm guessing they will spend the $ locally as well.
One thing that surprised me was that the muffler said "Made in USA",
and the clamps and bracket were made in Canada. Everything I used was
made in North America. I had rather expected to see that the parts came
from China.
Al
> > Be sure to report the denouement of this adventure.
>
> Ok, we did the project in about 3 hours Monday afternoon. My
> neighbor and I were having a really hard time getting the oldmuffler
> off, because it was really rusted together with the exhaust pipe on both
> help, plus an air powered chisel, a blow torch to heat up the pipe, and
> under the van.
>
> At that point, once we could really get a good grip on things, we
> you can call that easy), but the rear part of the oldmufflerstubbornly
> clung to the exhaust, until we used a grinder to make a couple of slits
> along the sides of the exhaust pipe there. Then we finally vibrated
> them apart, and finished it with slugs from the sledgehammer. My son
> enjoyed watching it all, and spent some time smashing the oldmuffler
> with the sledgehammer.
>
> I ended up putting $55 in the parts, and gave each of the guys $20
> for their trouble. I also ordered an extra large Papa John's 3 meat
> pizza (used a coupon, of course) for us to chow down on after the
> project, and then we reminisced about cars we had owned. Turned out
> that I had owned a 1981 VW Rabbit Diesel, and one of the other fellows
> had owned a 1983 VW Rabbit Diesel.
>
> for computer upgrades. I also got to know a couple of the local guys
> better, and now I have a much better understanding of the exhaust
> system. Got some pizza out of it as well, and probably wouldn't have
> from taking it to the shop. Oh, and I supported the local economy by
> buying $55 in parts from an independent wholesaler, and giving $40 to a
> couple of guys. I'm guessing they will spend the $ locally as well.
>
> and the clamps and bracket were made in Canada. Everything I used was
> made in North America. I had rather expected to see that the parts came
> from China.
Thanks for the report back. The main thing is that you did not get
yourself into more trouble. Nothing else broke. You did not get hung
up on a pipe that refused to fit. (Perhaps the neighbor had a pipe
expander.) And most importantly, nobody got hurt.