when plywood isn't plywood - did I just get reamed?
Ohioguy
loan program, which bundles the repair costs into the loan. As part of
this, we had to get everything in writing from the general contractor,
then submit it all to be reviewed. Funds are put into escrow until a
final inspection, when the funds are released to the general contractor
as each of the necessary repairs have been deemed to have been performed
adequately.
Around 3 months ago, I first spoke with the general contractor, and
went over what I wanted done. He tried to convince me to use OSB -
oriented strand board for the roof, but I said no. The current roof was
30 years old, and a bit rotten up near the roof vent. It was only 3/8"
thick, and the shingles were in horrible shape, which was probably why
the plywood was going bad. Anyway, I wanted 3/4" roof grade plywood to
be used, especially when the quotes were about 40% less than what I was
quoted for the plywood back around 2003. (who knew prices were that
cyclical?) I realized I would be paying more for 3/4" thick plywood,
and also for going with plywood instead of OSB, but I didn't care. It
means more to me knowing that we would have a stronger roof in the case
of very high winds or storms.
The general contractor did manage to convince me, after I did some
homework, that ridge vents would probably be the best choice for venting
the attic. Ridge vents run the length of the roof peak - up where the
hottest air gathers. We also did a walkaround, and I pointed out a roof
mounted DirecTV dish that I wanted removed. I've never liked having
screws going down through the shingles, since that just introduces a
place for leaks.
Fast forward to 9 days ago. After several extensions (delays), we
finally closed on the house and got the locks re-keyed. I met with the
general contractor, and gave him a key. I again briefly mentioned that
I wanted him to use 3/4" plywood on the roof. He called on Sunday and
said he thought the crew could get the roof done sometime this week.
3 days ago, on Wednesday, I got a call in the afternoon telling me
that the roof was completed, which was kind of a surprise. I had been
hoping to go up and watch them get started. I went up to the house on
Thursday to take pictures of the roof, and also to do some work on the
basement with my son. As I was taking photos, I immediately noticed
that the DirecTV dish was still up there.
I wondered - did they even replace the old plywood with new? Then I
walked around to the other side, and noticed a full sheet of OSB leaning
against the house.. Oh, no, I thought.
I ran inside, went up to the attic, and took a look. Yes, they used
oriented strand board on the entire roof. Plus, guess what? There was
no ridge vent installed. Instead, they put those rectangular vents in
that stick up from the roof, but you have to saw rectangular holes in
the wood for them.
So, in a nutshell, they didn't do 3 things that the general
contractor had said they would do. The main one, written into the
contract, was using plywood. (the other two were verbal)
I was furious enough at that point that I considered driving right
back home, giving him a call, and telling him he was fired. I felt like
I could no longer trust him to do the rest of the projects properly.
Eventually, I called him late yesterday, and here is what he said.
1) he said he left two messages over the past week regarding the roof on
my answering machine (possible, because our answering machine started
acting up about 10 days ago, and I remember the delete button sticking
twice) So part of this was a telephone communication problem - he says
he called and in his message said he would be doing certain things, and
using certain materials. If I had gotten the message, I would have
known when they were starting the work, and would have been on hand to
say "No way, jose!" to the OSB. As it was, I was told after the work
was finished, and had to discover the discrepancies myself.
2) regarding not using plywood as the written contract says he will do,
he claims that plywood is now a general term that includes both OSB and
PCX, the latter which he says is the technical term for plywood. He is
saying that if I had specified PCX, then I would have gotten what I am
calling plywood. However, he says that since I just said plywood, a
general term, OSB is included in that terminology, and that is why I
ended up with that on my house - since it is now the industry standard
for roofs.
He further claims that OSB now is actually superior to plywood for
roofs, and that it was exactly the same price as the roof grade plywood
I had priced. He is saying that I actually got a longer lasting, more
waterproof, superior roof because he used the OSB.
Frankly, I feel that his claim that there is some confusion about
what the term "plywood" means is a load of crap. I also think his claim
that OSB is superior has no merit. I am wondering if he is simply
saying all of this so that he can defuse the situation, and cover
himself for not following the contract. I seriously doubt that we could
force him to rip off the roofing and redo it with plywood at this point,
so I'm guessing that I'm stuck with the OSB. However, I still wonder if
he got a price break by using OSB instead of plywood, and if he is
pocketing the difference.
However, he is the professional, and he has much more experience than
I do regarding all of this.
I am hoping that some of you out there have some
construction/building experience, and might be able to shed some
educated light on the situation.
Al
Almost certainly he got a price break on OSB instead of plywood. That
and availability is why he did it. Also, OSB is much more user
friendly for the installers. That last feature can make for a better
quality job too. Still, I feel your pain in not getting what you asked
for. I had two roofs removed from a house and the third finally done
the way I agreed to for a third party. (This was insurance work and
the contractor wanted to maintain his status with State Farm by not
screwing customers.)
Ridge vents were the rage of the industry when they first came out.
Since then, studies have shown that many do not perform as well in the
long term due to plugging of the small vents with debris. Many
contractors have gone back to the tried and true pot vents. I'd
probably let that item fly.
Why was the TV dish still there? Apparently they only PATCHED the roof
and figured they could do it while you were looking the other way.
Pretty stupid of them to leave the dish installed as evidence. Or did
they re-install the dish?
I assume you got all these specs in writing to begin with. Changes
should be in writing as well. I don't buy the story about leaving you
a message and going with whatever the hell he wanted to do.
Bottom line: I would inspect that roof from every angle, particularly
from the possibility that the entire deck was not replaced as
specified. If you can verify that, I personally would demand a tear-
off and replacement. Actually, I'd try for some release from payment
and have the work done properly. My niece had a similar problem with a
roof job contracted through Lowes two years ago. It was a real joke
with broken new shingles and an incorrect nail pattern. After much
wrangling, Lowes ate about $6,000 and the niece had a quality job done
for about $4,500. It seems that roofing has become as sleazy as
transmission rebuilding because the flaws are so easily hidden.
Bill
Go to several stores and ask to look at the plywood and see what they show
you.
Then ask to look at OSB and see what they show you.
I would get a lawyer and together you write the contractor demanding that
the job be done as you wanted.
"Ohioguy" wrote in message
hchi...@hotmail.com
Was the contract in writing? It sounds like you may have - "we had to
get everything in writing from the general contractor, then it all to
be reviewed. Funds are put into escrow until a final inspection"
and-
"So, in a nutshell, they didn't do 3 things that the general
contractor had said they would do. The main one, written into the
contract, was using plywood."
If it was, have it ripped out and redone. If not, you learned lesson
101.
As for the ridge vent - I wouldn't have one. Most of them look cheesy
and wobbly, the difference in temp at the very peak and a foot down is
minimal, in driven rain they can leak water, and in a tornado or
hurricane they are a disaster.
Screws being a problem through the roof? Nah, not unless the wood is
rotted. Bad flashing is far worse of a problem.
OSB vs. plywood - the distinction is far less than it used to be. We
all know how plywood is made. The strength comes from the
cross-lamination and glue bonds. Any single sheet of the veneer used
is almost like paper. A wooden board of 3/4" thickness is inherently
weak along a couple axises.
The old OSB takes the wood strands and semi-randomly compresses them
into a sheet. because the orientation is random, the strength and
deformation resistance is fairly low. Newer ways of making OSB do
actual orientation of the strands, where a layer of strands is laid
down going in one direction, then another layer in a direction 90
degrees from that, and so on. The gluing process is also apparently
improved.
Does all this make OSB a superior material? It may depend on the
application. There is a crushing of the wood from the process that
breaks the stiffness. Only some of that can be recouped with
increased glue. Plywood is also lighter because of the air pockets in
the cells. However, resistance to a direct hit can sometimes be
greater in OSB because of the increased mass and multiple vectors for
direction of force.
Key issues are the span - OSB will sag more readily if not supported,
and weight - OSB is an increased load. In resistance to a twisting
motion along the surface of the sheet, both are incredibly strong. In
resistance to a span load, with both ends supported and a load in the
center, the OSB will deform more easily even though it may have equal
strength to an actual puncture. The glues used in OSB are
water-resistant if not waterproof, and the coating of the strands is
significant. Plywood, OTOH, can easily delaminate if it gets wet,
turning it into wet sheets of paperlike wood.
On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:02:21 -0500, Ohioguy <no...@none.net> wrote:
> We are buying a ~30 year old HUD owned house using the FHA 203k rehab
>loan program, which bundles the repair costs into the loan. As part of
>this, we had to get everything in writing from the general contractor,
>then it all to be reviewed. Funds are put into escrow until a
>final inssubmit pection, when the funds are released to the general contractor
The Henchman
"Al" <albu...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:87ff3a06-e634-4f95...@p24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 23, 10:02 pm, Ohioguy <n...@none.net> wrote:
>
> Why was the TV dish still there? Apparently they only PATCHED the roof
> and figured they could do it while you were looking the other way.
> Pretty stupid of them to leave the dish installed as evidence. Or did
> they re-install the dish?
> Bottom line: I would inspect that roof from every angle, particularly
> from the possibility that the entire deck was not replaced as
> specified.
I would strongly agree. Make sure the dish was not reinstalled. Look for
signs of bolt removal, fresh scratches etc. that'll be your tip if the roof
was not fully replaced.
As for OSB that is what I call Waferboard. Most new homes in US and Canada
use it for roofing and walls. These days the strands of wood are aligned
for stronger "ply" and axis. Also it's more environmentally friendly cause
limbs and I think even leaves get used in it and the resins don't admit mush
formaldehyde. insurance companies around here care about formaldehyde.
Also, contractors have told me that OSB/waferboard can be treated with
anti-termite and anti-mould stuff. The problem with OSB is if the corners
or edges are damaged, they swell. Swelled edges cause up heaving in your
roof. Find out if they used correct sheathing.
You may actually be getting a better roof than you asked form. Make sure
they used "exterior" coded OSB This should be painted on the wood somewhere
with a number 2. I'm in Canada but almost all OSB sold in the US is
Canadian so the number 2 or exterior should mean the same specs.
Also there has been in influx of Chinese plywood around here. I sell
cutting tools, and contractors are some of my customers. We've been told of
3 complaints on 7/16" and 5/8" plywood recently. Ununiform veneer, veneers
layers from from different woods, and bond that doesn't stay bond. Veneers
that split far too easya dn shrink over a small amount of time in dry
conditions. I bet money the origin is from China or Brazil.
IMHO Waferboard/OSB wood is a better choice for your roof. 20 or 30 years
ago it would not have been, but in 2009/2010 I think it is. But that's my 2
cents.
Ohioguy
I inspected roughly half of the roofing from inside the attic, and it
appears that they did tear off all of the old plywood, and put in new
OSB on the whole roof. Also, evidently they took off the DirecTV dish,
and then screwed it back on, down into the new shingles.
Al
The contractor operates through various crews, not people that work
directly under his supervision. He probably subcontracts out to them
and says, "Go over to 1234 Slipery Lane and put a roof on. The
material has been dropped off yesterday." So the crew goes over and
does what they usually do and the dish message never gets conveyed.
Other times the crew leader takes shortcuts under the shingles that he
figures won't be observed by an owner who is not yet living at the
address. You didn't get what you wanted so you jump up and down and
see what happens. Legally, it's not worth going to court over unless
you have the details clearly spelled out on paper. Then, his phone
calls would have little weight unless you were in a pattern of
accepting changes by phone, which doesn't seem the case here.
If you potentially have more work for him down the line, try to get
this out of his hide on that. Get more in writing, be more firm,
inspect the work along the way and get liquidated damage penalties
stated in the contract. There are contractors who appreciate being
specific and others who prefer to "wing it" and snow the customer.
During the 50's or 60's someone did a marketing study about why people
buy used cars from certain outlets. They found out that people tended
to go back to an outlet even when they got screwed the first time or
even more. The apparent reason was that they felt comfortable dealing
with a known entity rather than going elsewhere. With a roof, the key
element is the quality of workmanship. If you feel that this
contractor's crew was up to par in workmanship, his other crews
probably are too. So you have to decide whether you can build on this
lesson and tighten up on the remaining work so you get what you want.
Ohioguy
money, I got your a superior product, OSB that is much more water
resistant".
So he didn't actually say it was the same price as plywood - he just
said it was for the same money. I went into the store and priced the
plywood vs OSB today, and the plywood was about 60% more per sheet.
As I recall, I used the phone to get a quote for "roof grade plywood"
from Lowe's several months back, and they quoted me right about $10 a
sheet. Turns out the guy must have been quoting me the OSB price.
So that was screwed up from the get-go. Still, it would only have
made about a $500 difference in total price for the roof.
Got to say, though, those "roof grade" plywood panels just don't look
like very good quality either.
jeff
Less voids in the OSB, actually should be none. The problem with OSB
is edge swelling. If the edges aren't exposed, you should be good.
Jeff