Re: Why don't camera reviews cover the data connection to the PC?
Pat Cheney
> If it is a lie ... then all manufacturers and all review sites lie.
> No one specifies the camera-end fitting type or size.
The better camera reviewers DO mention the camera-end fitting type!
Look here:
http://reviews.digitaltrends.com/review/4701-3/casio-exilim-ex-z77-review-full-review
Here's a direct quote from that Casio Exilim EX-Z77 camera review:
"Sadly, Casio felt it necessary to equip the Exilim EX-Z77 with a
proprietary mini-USB jack, forcing users to keep yet another USB cable at
hand. With so many other camera manufacturers using standard mini-USB
ports, it's a wonder Casio doesn't make it easier on consumers by hopping
on the universal mini-USB bandwagon."
John Navas
in <8hk5l.11145$x%.8722@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>:
Unfortunately, that misses the point of having a dual connector. Had
Casio used standard Mini-USB, then it would have had to make room and
cost for another connector for A/V.
--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John
Pat Cheney
> Unfortunately, that misses the point of having a dual connector. Had
> Casio used standard Mini-USB, then it would have had to make room and
> cost for another connector for A/V.
Hi John,
Yes. This is well known to you that a dual-purpose camera port can't
possibly use the mini-USB connector ... even if the Camera manufacturer
says it's a USB port ... but I would guess it is not well known to the rest
of us.
Now that we know a dual port can't possibly be mini-USB or micro-USB even
though it says it's USB, we can now steer clear of any camera that uses a
single port for AV and USB purposes.
That's the secret decoder ring we needed!
In my particular case, I have never used the supplied AV cable with any
camera (I have a stack of them in a box somewhere), including the days when
the kids were young and I used the old-style tape-based video cameras.
So, I learned from you John, for which I thank you.
For me, if it says it handles both AV and USB in the same port, I don't
want that camera!
Had we only known before we bought the camera (sorry, I still fault the
reviewers for not making what is obvious to you clear to us).
Thank you John,
Pat
John Navas
in <KRk5l.11147$x%.3828@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>:
>On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:02:49 -0800, John Navas wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, that misses the point of having a dual connector. Had
>> Casio used standard Mini-USB, then it would have had to make room and
>> cost for another connector for A/V.
>
>Hi John,
>Yes. This is well known to you that a dual-purpose camera port can't
>possibly use the mini-USB connector ... even if the Camera manufacturer
>says it's a USB port ... but I would guess it is not well known to the rest
>of us.
It is well-known, and what Casio said is correct.
>Now that we know a dual port can't possibly be mini-USB or micro-USB even
>though it says it's USB, we can now steer clear of any camera that uses a
>single port for AV and USB purposes.
That makes no sense to me.
>That's the secret decoder ring we needed!
It's not a secret, no matter what you think.
>In my particular case, I have never used the supplied AV cable with any
>camera (I have a stack of them in a box somewhere), including the days when
>the kids were young and I used the old-style tape-based video cameras.
Part of why you're uninformed and mistaken.
>So, I learned from you John, for which I thank you.
You're welcome.
>For me, if it says it handles both AV and USB in the same port, I don't
>want that camera!
Suit yourself, but I think that's a poor primary criterion.
>Had we only known before we bought the camera (sorry, I still fault the
>reviewers for not making what is obvious to you clear to us).
You do yourself no credit by being unwilling to take responsibility for
your own mistaken assumption that you could and should have easily
checked before purchase, but failed to do so. I'm shaking my head.
Marco Tedaldi
>> Yes. This is well known to you that a dual-purpose camera port can't
>> possibly use the mini-USB connector ... even if the Camera manufacturer
>> says it's a USB port ... but I would guess it is not well known to the rest
>> of us.
>
> It is well-known, and what Casio said is correct.
>
Even it it is well know it is not really true. But I'm sure you've read
my replies by now :-)
It IS possible to make dual use of the signal lines of an standard usb
connector. It just needs some additional circuitry. And this costs some
money. A special connector on the other hand does not seem to cos much
more than a standard connector (if used in big enough quantities).
[rest snipped away since it's based on a not necessary true assumption]
kruemi
--
Dimage A2, Agfa isolette, EOS 40D
http://flickr.com/photos/kruemi
And a cool timekiller: http://www.starpirates.net/register.php?referer=9708
John Navas
<news070...@spamgourmet.com> wrote in
<gj5ohh$vbf$1...@reader.motzarella.org>:
>John Navas schrieb:
>
>>> Yes. This is well known to you that a dual-purpose camera port can't
>>> possibly use the mini-USB connector ... even if the Camera manufacturer
>>> says it's a USB port ... but I would guess it is not well known to the rest
>>> of us.
>>
>> It is well-known, and what Casio said is correct.
>>
>Even it it is well know it is not really true. But I'm sure you've read
>my replies by now :-)
>It IS possible to make dual use of the signal lines of an standard usb
>connector. It just needs some additional circuitry. And this costs some
>money. A special connector on the other hand does not seem to cos much
>more than a standard connector (if used in big enough quantities).
It more a matter of risk and harm and support issues when you put the
wrong signals on a standard USB connector. It's generally a bad idea to
do something like that, avoided by better manufacturers.
SMS
> It IS possible to make dual use of the signal lines of an standard usb
> connector. It just needs some additional circuitry. And this costs some
> money. A special connector on the other hand does not seem to cos much
> more than a standard connector (if used in big enough quantities).
The increase in circuitry cost is minimal if they're doing a custom IC
for the camera anyway. The sense pin is present on the 5 pin mini-USB
connector already.
I did a design of an IC where the floppy disc controller pins were
shared with the parallel port signals, and the floppy signals were
routed out those pins when another pin was grounded. It was for a
notebook computer maker that wanted to have an external floppy drive,
but not add any extra connectors. As long as a normal printer cable was
plugged in, the floppy signals never appeared on the pins. Plug in the
floppy, and and ungrounded ground pin on the laptop side was pulled high
and the floppy signals were routed to the pins.
I didn't like the whole idea. If a printer cable manufacturer had
cheaped out and not included all the ground wires in the Centronics
cable then it would have been bad. But apparently my fears were
ungrounded (no pun intended) as the system worked well, and it was big
selling point for this company to be able to offer floppy support on its
small notebooks (this was before USB came along).
If camera makers want to do this sort of thing, then they should
standardize the mini-USB-AV cable among brands.
I would probably not buy a camera with the type of connector Casio used
because I hate proprietary cables and having to carry them around.
John Navas
wrote in <Ufu5l.9751$as4....@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>:
>Marco Tedaldi wrote:
>
>> It IS possible to make dual use of the signal lines of an standard usb
>> connector. It just needs some additional circuitry. And this costs some
>> money. A special connector on the other hand does not seem to cos much
>> more than a standard connector (if used in big enough quantities).
>
>The increase in circuitry cost is minimal if they're doing a custom IC
>for the camera anyway. The sense pin is present on the 5 pin mini-USB
>connector already.
It's not a "sense pin" and doesn't work that way -- it's the ID pin.
>If camera makers want to do this sort of thing, then they should
>standardize the mini-USB-AV cable among brands.
There's really no need to do that.
>I would probably not buy a camera with the type of connector Casio used
>because I hate proprietary cables and having to carry them around.
Not a big deal. No need to carry a cable at all.
Marco Tedaldi
> On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:29:17 +0100, Marco Tedaldi
> <news070...@spamgourmet.com> wrote in
> <gj5ohh$vbf$1...@reader.motzarella.org>:
>> John Navas schrieb:
>>
>> my replies by now :-)
>> It IS possible to make dual use of the signal lines of an standard usb
>> connector. It just needs some additional circuitry. And this costs some
>> money. A special connector on the other hand does not seem to cos much
>> more than a standard connector (if used in big enough quantities).
>
> It more a matter of risk and harm and support issues when you put the
> wrong signals on a standard USB connector. It's generally a bad idea to
> do something like that, avoided by better manufacturers.
>
is connected to an USB-Port it can avoid damage. But I have to agree on
this with you. The only real solution is something, where the signals
have their own lines.
As far as I know there are even solutions where there are additional
contacts in USB-Connectors in places which are isolated normally. I
don't know if something like this would be possible with mini-USB
connectors.
And I agree with the OP that these proprietary connectors are a hassle.
I like the fact that I can use the same cable for my MP3-Player, my card
reader and also could use it for my camera (But I see no reason to
connect my camera to my computer at the moment, I just don't have the
Space for the camera on my desk).
And the second type of cable I can use for my external hard disk, for
printers and scanners.
It was the same problem a long time ago when laptops had not ethernet
port built in. You had to use a PCMCIA card with a proprietary pigtail
(which tended to break when used often) until they came up with the
RealPort cards (I can't remember the manufacturer anymore).
A proprietary cable is no problem as long as you don't break it, loose
it or are in a situation where you unexpectedly have to connect your
device to another computer.
kruemi
--
Dimage A2, Agfa isolette
John Navas
<news070...@spamgourmet.com> wrote in
<gj60vk$ip5$1...@reader.motzarella.org>:
>John Navas schrieb:
>> It more a matter of risk and harm and support issues when you put the
>> wrong signals on a standard USB connector. It's generally a bad idea to
>> do something like that, avoided by better manufacturers.
>>
>Not really if correctly done. Since the Camera can detect itself if it
>is connected to an USB-Port it can avoid damage. But I have to agree on
>this with you. The only real solution is something, where the signals
>have their own lines.
>As far as I know there are even solutions where there are additional
>contacts in USB-Connectors in places which are isolated normally. I
>don't know if something like this would be possible with mini-USB
>connectors.
It's not possible -- all pins are taken. Likewise Micro-USB.
>A proprietary cable is no problem as long as you don't break it, loose
>it or are in a situation where you unexpectedly have to connect your
>device to another computer.
I use a USB card reader/writer. Avoids any cable issue altogether.
Marco Tedaldi
> On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:52:54 +0100, Marco Tedaldi
> <news070...@spamgourmet.com> wrote in
> <gj60vk$ip5$1...@reader.motzarella.org>:
>
>> John Navas schrieb:
>
>>> It more a matter of risk and harm and support issues when you put the
>>> wrong signals on a standard USB connector. It's generally a bad idea to
>>> do something like that, avoided by better manufacturers.
>>>
>> Not really if correctly done. Since the Camera can detect itself if it
>> is connected to an USB-Port it can avoid damage. But I have to agree on
>> this with you. The only real solution is something, where the signals
>> have their own lines.
>> As far as I know there are even solutions where there are additional
>> contacts in USB-Connectors in places which are isolated normally. I
>> don't know if something like this would be possible with mini-USB
>> connectors.
>
> It's not possible -- all pins are taken. Likewise Micro-USB.
>
would be possible to add some additional contacts and use them for
A/V-Stuff.
Or the contacts could be used for USB and A/V.
In both cases the manufacturer has to supply 2 cables. One is the normal
USB cable (With mini USB connector, nothing fancy) and an AV-Cable with
an mini-USB Plug on one side and the A/V-Connectors on the other end.
This cable would be completely proprietary and could also contain some
circuitry that let's the camera detect which cable is connected (a
resistor in the simplest case, some active electronics do do more fancy
stuff).
This way the customer can't break anything in the camera nor in the
computer. The only problem could be if someone tried to get A/V-Signals
out of his card reader with the proprietary A/V-Cable :-)
>> A proprietary cable is no problem as long as you don't break it, loose
>> it or are in a situation where you unexpectedly have to connect your
>> device to another computer.
>
> I use a USB card reader/writer. Avoids any cable issue altogether.
>
Built in card reader in my computer, portable card reader in my bag or
backpack (which I almost always have with me). No problems, except at my
workplace where the computer only has USB-connectors at the back and I
have to crawl under my desk to connect it. :-)
Maybe UWB will solve all these problems.. (I believe it when I see it)
kruemi
--
Dimage A2, Agfa isolette, EOS 40D
Tomes
> Built in card reader in my computer, portable card reader in my bag or
> backpack (which I almost always have with me). No problems, except at my
> workplace where the computer only has USB-connectors at the back and I
> have to crawl under my desk to connect it. :-)
>
moved that USB port right up onto my desk with no apparent loss of speed
that I could tell. I still use it even now on my newer computer at work (a
6th grade classroom) so I can plug in my thumb drive and have it hidden from
the kids.
Tomes
John Navas
<gj6tti$2oq$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
There is no loss of speed.
The Real Bev
http://www.shop4tech.com/item2853.html has these for very good prices. Friends
and I shared 10 for $20 with no shipping charge. I'm absolutely amazed at how
much Best Buy etc. charge for USB cables. And don't get me started on Monster
cables...
--
Cheers,
Bev
*******************************************
My computer doesn't have to be friendly;
civil is entirely sufficient.
SMS
> On mini-USB the 5 contacts are on one side of this platic thingie. So it
> would be possible to add some additional contacts and use them for
> A/V-Stuff.
They could also do something like was done with the EISA bus versus the
ISA bus with a second level of contacts deeper in the connector
("http://www.millbury.k12.ma.us/hs/techrepair/isaeisa1.gif"). The AV
cable would go in deeper, past the USB contacts, and make a connection
with the AV pins only, but a standard USB cable could be used to connect
to the USB contacts.
SMS
> Tomes wrote:
>
>> "Marco Tedaldi" ...
>>> Built in card reader in my computer, portable card reader in my bag
>>> or backpack (which I almost always have with me). No problems, except
>>> at my workplace where the computer only has USB-connectors at the
>>> back and I have to crawl under my desk to connect it. :-)
>>>
>> I used to have this problem until I got myself a USB 'extension
>> cord'. It moved that USB port right up onto my desk with no apparent
>> loss of speed that I could tell. I still use it even now on my newer
>> computer at work (a 6th grade classroom) so I can plug in my thumb
>> drive and have it hidden from the kids.
>
> http://www.shop4tech.com/item2853.html has these for very good prices.
> Friends and I shared 10 for $20 with no shipping charge. I'm absolutely
> amazed at how much Best Buy etc. charge for USB cables. And don't get
> me started on Monster cables...
$2 is very expensive for a USB extension cable. I order cables from
monoprice.com. They have the 6 ft extension cables for $0.87 (if you buy
10), or $0.94 for 1, though shipping is $5.95 so it pays to order a
bunch of stuff if you need it.
John Navas
wrote in <FdF5l.6$FM...@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com>:
You obviously know nothing about the USB connector. Do some homework so
you don't embarrass yourself with another post like this.
Dave Garland
> $2 is very expensive for a USB extension cable. I order cables from
> monoprice.com.
Monoprice is good. If you only need one or two, I find the cables
that Dollar Tree carries adequate (wow, I linked two threads!).
They're not the worlds heaviest or most durable cables, but perfectly
fine if you're not going to beat them up a lot.
Dave
The Real Bev
Thanks, bookmarked for future reference.
--
Cheers, Bev
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I don't care who your father is! Drop that cross
one more time and you're out of the parade!"