Remembering The Old MCFL
Vic Smith
but I'm not looking for them. Thinking can get old, and tiring as one
grows old and tired. Naw, I ain't that old.
Brought that "interesting" up because I was just googling for an old
thread that I was reminded about today, and saw many fairly in-depth
and intelligent arguments while I was looking for the thread.
Even the lies and insults seemed better than those of today, but maybe
I'm wrong about that.
Never found the thread I was looking for, but it was an exchange I had
with Lou about H1B visa employees and how I felt they were a bane on
the American economy and educational system.
There were many such discussions about H1B's and outsourcing as those
factors became prominent in the workplace.
Basically you either took the side of laissez-faire capitalism or you
didn't. I didn't. I don't know what side of that Lou took, but he
defended the H1B program as it stood, and I didn't, because I felt it
simply bad for America.
You can hear all the failed laissez-faire capitalism arguments still
being parroted to this day on Fox "news" in case you missed it here.
At that time I was a systems analyst for a major company and saw that
the H1B's being brought in were costing Americans their jobs, and also
having a bad effect on our education system. Given my position I knew
well how H1B's were not only displacing Americans in jobs, but also
establishing beachheads for the outsourcing of even more jobs.
I never blamed the foreigners I worked with and managed.
The corporate culture dictated by Wall Street ran the show.
In the 5-7 years since that thread the American economy has tanked and
a big part of the joblessness we are suffering and will continue to
suffer is due to outsourcing and off-shoring in all industries.
But what reminded me of that long dead thread is how it concluded.
Lou was rhapsodizing about the beauty of how the H1B's in his shop
epitomized the stories and traditions of how immigrants have made
America what it is. Only the immigrant part is true, not the H1B
part.
My last reply to him was to the effect that the children of those
immigrants wouldn't have jobs if the H1B pattern continued.
His last reply was abrupt, basically that he was done with the
discussion. Maybe he had no answer for what I said, or maybe he was
just tired of the back and forth. I don't know.
I retired before most of my fellow Americans in my shop lost their
jobs due to more H1B's coming, then the operation was almost entirely
outsourced to India.
Anyway, today I visited my son and his wife and my grandchildren and
saw their new home in Naperville, Illinois for the first time.
Very nice. He got it cheap as a BOA short sale. Paid $290k in an
area full of +$400K homes which are similar to his.
BOA took at least a $100k hit. Might have something to do with BOA
not wanting bad PR from a walk-away in that area, which is full of
professionals, including RE brokers and realtors.
It's amazing how many homes the bankers have let fall into disrepair
with walk-aways instead of taking less loss with a short sale.
Perhaps the fed is covering those losses with "our" money.
After all, Obama has surrounded himself with the same jokers who led
the economy off the cliff.
Probably not possible any more to be surprised by the corruption of
America's financial sector and the government in its pocket.
But I digress.
The family which lost the house, husband and wife and 2 kids about to
enter college, are really struggling in a small apartment some miles
away according to the neighbors, who say they are a fine family.
One can only guess how it will work out for the youngsters.
The reason for all this downturn in their lives is he lost his job as
a computer systems analyst, and has no prospect of regaining a
comparable job.
It was outsourced to India.
Ironically enough he *was* an Indian immigrant, as was his wife.
Came here 25 years ago - I don't know if he was H1B - and eventually
became naturalized.
*Now* he's just another American fucked by a corporation fattening
their bottom line while sowing more seeds to destroy America.
I just had to pass this inspiring immigrant story on to Lou.
Could NOT resist.
But then I've never been much for letting sleeping dogs lie.
Also have a Pakistani-American friend/neighbor who was my DBA
where I worked. He was replaced by an Indian H1B just before I
retired and hasn't found steady work since.
Same story, but he's kept his house. So far.
--Vic
Don Klipstein
>Used to be some interesting discussions here. Maybe there still are,
>but I'm not looking for them. Thinking can get old, and tiring as one
>grows old and tired. Naw, I ain't that old.
>Brought that "interesting" up because I was just googling for an old
>thread that I was reminded about today, and saw many fairly in-depth
>and intelligent arguments while I was looking for the thread.
>Even the lies and insults seemed better than those of today, but maybe
>I'm wrong about that.
I think you are remembering correctly. One very-frequent followup-er
in MCFL in recent years is an infamous sub-troll that earned himself a
FAQ. That FAQ on that sub-troll appears to me likely to be 15-plus years
old, but the sub-troll appears to me to have gained only a couple of
years of emotional maturity since then, and as of a month or 2 ago he
stilll appeared to me to like to tick-off people in general, especially
those who work for a living.
In recent months, MCFL also got crossposts from some cycling groups by
a maybe-touched-in-the-head cyclist enduring need to travel frugally in
a bike-unfriendly city - along with some barrage by someone disliking him
for being a maybe-tuoched-in-the-head cyclist who likely crossposted
maybe a couple dozen threads into MCFL.
--
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Rod Speed
Thats a hard claim to substantiate given that the unemployment
rate bottomed at 4.x% just before the clowns were allowed to
completely implode the entire world financial system again.
What appears to have happened is that quite a few like
you just gave up on working when your wife was producing
an income that provides a decent standard of living.
> But what reminded me of that long dead thread is how it concluded.
> Lou was rhapsodizing about the beauty of how the H1B's in his shop
> epitomized the stories and traditions of how immigrants have made
> America what it is.
He's right.
> Only the immigrant part is true, not the H1B part.
Thats just a variation on the immigrant detail. In those days almost anyone
who wanted to move to the US could do so as long as they werent chinese.
> My last reply to him was to the effect that the children of those
> immigrants wouldn't have jobs if the H1B pattern continued.
And that claim cant explain the fact that the unemployment
rate bottomed at 4.x% just before the clowns were allowed
to completely implode the entire world financial system again.
> His last reply was abrupt, basically that he was done with
> the discussion. Maybe he had no answer for what I said, or
> maybe he was just tired of the back and forth. I don't know.
Few keep going forever even if they dont change their position.
> I retired before most of my fellow Americans in my
> shop lost their jobs due to more H1B's coming, then
> the operation was almost entirely outsourced to India.
> Anyway, today I visited my son and his wife and my grandchildren
> and saw their new home in Naperville, Illinois for the first time.
> Very nice. He got it cheap as a BOA short sale. Paid $290k
> in an area full of +$400K homes which are similar to his. BOA
> took at least a $100k hit. Might have something to do with
> BOA not wanting bad PR from a walk-away in that area,
> which is full of professionals, including RE brokers and realtors.
> It's amazing how many homes the bankers have let fall into disrepair
> with walk-aways instead of taking less loss with a short sale.
> Perhaps the fed is covering those losses with "our" money.
> After all, Obama has surrounded himself with the same
> jokers who led the economy off the cliff.
He didnt have any real choice on that.
> Probably not possible any more to be surprised by the corruption
> of America's financial sector and the government in its pocket.
Its nothing like as bad as it was in the 20s.
> But I digress.
> The family which lost the house, husband and wife and 2 kids about
> to enter college, are really struggling in a small apartment some miles
> away according to the neighbors, who say they are a fine family.
> One can only guess how it will work out for the youngsters.
> The reason for all this downturn in their lives is he lost his job as
> a computer systems analyst, and has no prospect of regaining a
> comparable job.
But he could have got a decent job if it wasnt for the GFC.
> It was outsourced to India.
> Ironically enough he *was* an Indian immigrant, as was his wife.
> Came here 25 years ago - I don't know if he was H1B - and
> eventually became naturalized.
> *Now* he's just another American fucked by a corporation fattening
> their bottom line while sowing more seeds to destroy America.
Nope, fucked by a combination of choosing to work in
a part of the economy thats so easy to export to India.
Plenty have lost their management jobs in manufacturing
as their industry cant compete with the manufacture of
low cost consumer goods in china etc too.
Thats been going on ever since america was invented.
> I just had to pass this inspiring immigrant story on to Lou.
> Could NOT resist.
> But then I've never been much for letting sleeping dogs lie.
> Also have a Pakistani-American friend/neighbor who was
> my DBA where I worked. He was replaced by an Indian
> H1B just before I retired and hasn't found steady work since.
> Same story, but he's kept his house. So far.
Plenty of that happened in the past with the hordes of new immigrants too.
And it happened to you as an immigrant too.
Napoleon
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Used to be some interesting discussions here. Maybe there still are,
>but I'm not looking for them. Thinking can get old, and tiring as one
>grows old and tired. Naw, I ain't that old.
As each day passes Americans get more stupid. This country is falling
fast from third-world to Africa-like. Nobody cares. It's inevitable,
as the fall of the Roman empire was inevitable.
Empires do not last. Ever. As for intelligent discussions about the
economy, forget it. As I said, nobody cares.
Vic Smith
You're talking about Speed, and maybe the guy with the long
pretentious handles? His Highness?
Learned to mostly ignore Speed long ago, except when I feel like
throwing a few insults his way. Even quit that.
He's not worth my insults.
The other guy's handle and thread titles kept me from opening all
posts but one. Didn't see anything there, but nothing offensive
either.
Reminded me a bit of that young guy from California who used to post
here - can't remember his handle. Think he lived with his ma, and
talked about getting a date much of the time, and maybe bitched about
taxes, though with his menial job probably paid hardly any.
Off-the-wall, but basically pretty normal yakker.
Anyway, the only other responder to this thread - napoleon - might
have the right idea. People don't want to think in depth much
anymore. I still think, but don't write as much.
Part of that is age saps energy, and that's probably the reason most
of the old posters are gone.
I've seen that in business too, and a big part of the reason boomers
sold out America is they got fat and tired, and off-shored both labor
and thinking. I worked with guys who were real hustlers until middle
age when their assured pensions and 401k's made them lazy.
Where they had previously taken pride in the company culture of good
project management and company proprietorship, they became perfectly
willing to farm everything out to domestic, then foreign operations.
When I was a contracting manager for a computer firm I used to discuss
this with a manager client at their site.
We provided some bodies for them, but they did all the project
management.
This guy had come up through the ranks and knew the business backwards
and forwards, both technical and business ends.
He was a "relationship" kind of guy but expected excellence from his
workers. By "relationship" I mean he had built many project teams and
knew the meaning of "loyalty."
But in our discussions about farming out different operations it was
evident he had no real problem with that, as it wasn't affecting
current staff.
I disagreed with that philosophy for a number of reasons.
I felt they should be hiring and training to maintain their
excellence.
I liked that company's culture, and it was the best of any I dealt
with. I had done a 4 1/2 year consulting stint there some years
before and had been sorry to leave.
His quality was a perfect example of what the culture produced.
There were many quality people there.
Besides that, visiting different companies and being blue collar until
my thirties I had a different perspective on the value of company
culture and the differences. All his experience was at one place.
But his argument - from his perspective - was he didn't have to get
close and personal with project management, hiring interviews, etc,
etc. He had done all that for 30 years, and if he didn't have to do
it anymore, fine with him.
If he had to only keep a few hired consulting project leaders in line,
and set up the required management meetings, it was an easier life.
I really couldn't convince him, nor tried hard to, given our business
relationship at that time, that the long term implications were not
good.
The business is a major insurance company, and he was a high level
(bonus) investment department IT manager.
This was about 1996, the stock market was on fire, his generous
company benefits were secure, and the future looked rosy to him.
A couple years later I was working for him as a contractor running his
fixed income system, then a couple years later left my consulting
company when he actively recruited me to the company from a different
department he was heading.
I was putting my mainframe application to bed as it went to another
platform, and the post Y2K job market was looming.
It was all very serendipitous. A difference in circumstances might
have meant losing my house in the future, and not being comfortably
retired as I am.
Many comfortable people don't know the meaning of "There, but for the
grace of God..." That's a serious character flaw to me.
But I've had hard times, and know how it works. For all the talk of
"Work hard and you can write your own ticket." it doesn't always work
that way.
Pure dumb luck and circumstances often make the call.
And relationships. I was always good at what I did, but so are many
others who ended up out of work.
It was knowing this manager and him seeing me work, and the timing of
it all that ended up making a huge difference in my life.
No one element alone would have made a difference.
Dumb luck.
Sometimes you can predict the future or get close, but often you are
just tossed on the tides as the sea of life will move you.
When I left the shop floor of IH in 1976 to go to college I didn't do
it because I feared I would lose my job, but because I was bored with
it. A buddy there implored me not to leave, saying "You're giving up
a locked in lifetime job and good retirement."
A few years later he was out of work. while I was starting a new
career. Dumb luck.
I'm seeing stories now about those who lost their jobs a few years ago
and went to college to get teaching degrees. All the right moves.
They can't find work. Bad luck.
It's the little things that are easier to control.
Knowing I was being recruited but still a contractor at heart, I
called an IT recruiter I was friendly with and who knew the market.
He said the market looked to be bad soon and I should take the job.
I controlled making that call. It decided me.
When he was recruiting me this manager worked me hard, coming upstairs
to bug me numerous times. All good-natured. One time he casually
said "There might be a hiring bonus in it" as part of the repartee.
A few months later when I bit on the job the personnel office took
over and called me to make an offer. It was a good one and I
accepted.
Just before I hung up with her I remembered Tom made mention of a
bonus once, and thought "What the hey, nothing ventured, nothing
gained," and told her that Tom had mentioned a bonus. She said she
didn't know anything about that but would get back to me the next day
when he came back to the office. It was purely an afterthought on my
part, and wouldn't have mattered. I had accepted the job.
Next day she calls and says there will be a $10k bonus included with
the offer.
Easiest 10 g's I ever made, and you could say I controlled that.
But the real important events in my life are mostly the result of dumb
luck. Sure, I took advantage when opportunity knocked, but being
where opportunity was knocking was always dumb luck.
And maybe I didn't hear other even better opportunities knocking.
I can think of some, but I've never been greedy or even real
ambitious. Just happy for what I have, because I take "There but for
the grace of God...." to heart.
The only conclusion I can readily make from all this is to move
around, keep your eyes open, and try to hear the knocking.
Still have to get lucky. You can't make luck, but you should try hard
to recognize it.
For boomers there was plenty of knocking early on.
Tom was eventually forced to retire early when he resisted the
off-shoring that was taking place.
He saw too many of the company cultural elements being destroyed.
Too late. He probably couldn't have changed much anyway.
Wall Street runs the show. Money is all that matters since Wall
Street took over the American culture and its means of production.
We remained friendly, after many sometimes heated arguments.
When he left, there nobody left there that had his glow or quality,
and the place was just a shell where I went to work at.
There was no culture left.
We were never social friends, but who's at work matters.
I did my usual good job for a few more years then retired myself.
I should have missed that place, but never did.
Though he is "very" secure financially and I am happy with my
financial security, neither of us were happy with what happened to a
company we spent years devoting our labor to.
Or that our children will never have the opportunity to work hard and
get fat as we had. They'll be lucky if they just get to work hard.
The boomers got fat, then sold out their children to foreigners.
That's the bottom line as I see it.
Probably just human nature and history taking its course.
Don't mean I have to like it.
Okay, done rattling. Meandered there a bit. It's a habit.
I imagine there's much some might take issue with there, but chances
are nobody will read it, so I ain't worried.
--Vic
Napoleon
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>But I've had hard times, and know how it works. For all the talk of
>"Work hard and you can write your own ticket." it doesn't always work
>that way.
>Pure dumb luck and circumstances often make the call.
Bingo! That's it. Luck rules the world. And for all those people that
say you make luck by hard work - bullshit. The definition of luck is
not "hard work and long hours, and education and good character."
No, the definition of luck is "good fortune; advantage or success,
considered as the result of chance." CHANCE. Absolutely nothing to do
with hard work.
Case in point. My sister only got a job (after looking for 2+ years)
because one employee died and the other moved out of the country and
they needed someone at THAT MOMENT. Pure chance. Her qualifications
meant nothing.
Luck is everything. I myself, have no luck. Chance has passed me by.
But I keep on looking for work, thinking my three college degrees and
20 years of experience are worth something, and they're worth jack
shit.
>I'm seeing stories now about those who lost their jobs a few years ago
>and went to college to get teaching degrees. All the right moves.
>They can't find work. Bad luck.
Yes. College is the MOST unfrugal thing you can do in your life. I
regret ALL MY COLLEGE DEGREES. Total waste of money and time. College
should only be for those who want to party for five-ten years and then
can immediately take over the reins of daddy's business. Just like it
was back in the old days. The education institution is a ponzi scheme.
>But the real important events in my life are mostly the result of dumb
>luck. Sure, I took advantage when opportunity knocked, but being
>where opportunity was knocking was always dumb luck.
Yup. Some people have luck, some don't. I realize I don't. Therefore I
don't play the lottery or go to casinos. If more people realized that
one's financial status is pure luck, then we wouldn't have so many
depressed people thinking it's their fault they can't find work. But
as I said before - nobody cares and really I can't blame them. Care
about what? That America is a pit of hell with no jobs, no innovation,
no caring, no hope. I don't care about that either.
>Wall Street runs the show. Money is all that matters since Wall
>Street took over the American culture and its means of production.
If you weren't born in a Wall St. family (i.e. daddy is a big shot),
then you're a nobody. America is officially a fascist country. Quit
believing the "American dream." It doesn't exist.
> It's a habit.
>I imagine there's much some might take issue with there, but chances
>are nobody will read it, so I ain't worried.
True. I read the whole thing, but then I have nothing else to do at
the moment (other than print out a few resumes whereby I have deleted
all my college degrees and renamed my past jobs to reflect that I have
merely a high school diploma and am willing to work for minimum wage).
hchi...@hotmail.com
I knew from the getgo that Rod Speed would kill this group. Most
people won't wander into a sewage tank, grab around, and keep wiping
shit off stuff to see if there is anything of value. If anything, RS
teaches us that pure democracy doesn't work unless there is a way to
exclude or execute the idiots (BTW, this was done in ancient Greece).
Even before RS, I was becoming less interested in "discussions" about
politics and religion. 99.99% of participants have no intention of
attempting to learn and no intention of changing pre-formed opinions,
no matter how bizarre those might be. When I did enter into those
discussions it was primarily for the lurkers.
I've seen the fallout from work visas. I regard them as a form of
sedition.
The real issues go much deeper though. As a gloss -
Pre-industrial society was agrarian with a few leaders and merchants.
The bulk of the people could raise their own food and survive with
minimal help. If you didn't get drafted into a war, or killed off by
disease, you could usually survive.
The industrial revolution demanded people as employees, and the demand
for goods and reduction in costs of mechanized crop production pulled
people from the farms for over a hundred years.
The new systems required supervisors and a whole new group of
labor/management/merchant/service people, which created lots of jobs.
The computer revolution minimized the need for many of these people
and unemployed a lot, but the computers themselves needed support and
brought new jobs, many of which were temporary.
Robotics and offshoring and work visas combined to reduce labor and
make it more cost efficient. That made a lot of folks start to have
less income.
Everything went fine as long as there was an excess of credit. Real
costs could be deferred or ignored on a personal level and on a
business level. Leveraged debt allowed fast growth and increasing the
amount of leverage covered the shortfalls.
Eventually, the shit had to hit the fan. The most egregious credit
scams, the credit default swaps, fell. Then repercussions continued
right down the line, hitting the people that were most over-extended
first, but continuing and hitting businesses (especially restaurants)
and those dependent on the stock market.
Politics doesn't matter, both "sides" of the clown college in
Washington didn't bother to read the rescue bill they passed. Rescue
of friends and cronies and those with influence was the only priority.
My one error was in not anticipating the lengths that the government
would go to in the rescue attempt. By all my best guesses the house
of cards should have fallen three years ago November, and by now we
should have been out of it.
Instead of toppling quickly, the gears of the economy are still
stripping and falling apart in many areas, while staying reasonably
intact in others. Texas seems to be weathering this well. Much of
the rest of the country is suffering and businesses are closing up
shop.
I've got some pretty good ideas on where things will go from here, but
would rather not say. Besides, I'm waiting for the resident welfare
idiot to come back with one of his less than witty remarks, so that I
can savor the smell of his bullshit.
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:44:57 -0500, Vic Smith
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
m...@privacy.net
>I've got some pretty good ideas on where things will go from here, but
>would rather not say.
Please.....share it
Id like to hear them!
h
<hchi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ho1i26d67ef6avtaq...@4ax.com...
> Geeze, and I thought I wrote long posts... :-)
>
> I knew from the getgo that Rod Speed would kill this group.
Seriously. Is there ANYONE out there who hasn't plonked Rod Slow? Anyone?
Anyone?
h
"Derald" <der...@invalid.net> wrote in message
news:K76dnY9h7JhTpbTR...@earthlink.com...
>
> "h" <tmc...@searchmachine.com> wrote:
>
>>Seriously. Is there ANYONE out there who hasn't plonked Rod Slow? Anyone?
>>Anyone?
> up in useless dialogs with R.S.
Newbies. Got to be newbies.
Rod Speed
> Geeze, and I thought I wrote long posts... :-)
> I knew from the getgo that Rod Speed would kill this group.
Have fun explaining the fact that ALL groups, including the horde that
I have never ever posted in, have declined even more than this one has.
<reams of your puerile shit any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed where it belongs>
> Even before RS, I was becoming less interested in "discussions"
> about politics and religion. 99.99% of participants have no intention of
> attempting to learn and no intention of changing pre-formed opinions,
> no matter how bizarre those might be. When I did enter into those
> discussions it was primarily for the lurkers.
Just as true of the absolute vast bulk of other areas as well.
Thats the way ALL discussions work.
> I've seen the fallout from work visas. I regard them as a form of sedition.
Wota terminal fuckwit.
> The real issues go much deeper though. As a gloss -
Mindlessly superficial shit, actually.
> Pre-industrial society was agrarian with a few leaders and merchants.
A fucking lot of them, actually.
> The bulk of the people could raise their own food and survive with minimal help.
But they didnt.
> If you didn't get drafted into a war, or killed off by disease, you could usually survive.
Pity about the hordes that had to watch their kids die in droughts etc.
> The industrial revolution demanded people as employees,
Corse there was never ever anything like that before the industrial revolution, eh ?
> and the demand for goods and reduction in costs of mechanized crop
> production pulled people from the farms for over a hundred years.
For a hell of a lot longer than that, actually.
> The new systems required supervisors
Corse there was never ever anything like that before the industrial revolution, eh ?
> and a whole new group of labor/management/merchant/service people, which created lots of jobs.
The industrial revolution created a hell of a lot more.
> The computer revolution minimized the need for
> many of these people and unemployed a lot,
But we saw unemployment bottom at 4.x% anyway,
with an immense legal and illegal immigration rate
and an historic high participation rate before the
clowns were allowed to completely implode the
entire world financial system, again.
> but the computers themselves needed support and
> brought new jobs, many of which were temporary.
And that was always a very small part of what saw
unemployment bottom at 4.x% anyway, before the
clowns were allowed to completely implode the
entire world financial system, again.
> Robotics and offshoring and work visas combined
> to reduce labor and make it more cost efficient.
> That made a lot of folks start to have less income.
Very few, actually. And what matters is that HOUSEHOLD
income continued to increase substantially.
> Everything went fine as long as there was an excess of credit.
It still goes fine in some places with a clue even without that.
> Real costs could be deferred or ignored on a personal level
> and on a business level. Leveraged debt allowed fast growth
> and increasing the amount of leverage covered the shortfalls.
> Eventually, the shit had to hit the fan. The most egregious credit
> scams, the credit default swaps, fell. Then repercussions continued
> right down the line, hitting the people that were most over-extended
> first, but continuing and hitting businesses (especially restaurants)
> and those dependent on the stock market.
> Politics doesn't matter, both "sides" of the clown college in
> Washington didn't bother to read the rescue bill they passed. Rescue
> of friends and cronies and those with influence was the only priority.
And the unemployment rate only doubled, a hell of a lot better
result than we saw the previous times the clowns were allowed
to completely implode the entire world financial system.
> My one error was in not anticipating the lengths that the government
> would go to in the rescue attempt. By all my best guesses the house
> of cards should have fallen three years ago November, and by now we
> should have been out of it.
> Instead of toppling quickly, the gears of the economy are still
> stripping and falling apart in many areas, while staying reasonably
> intact in others. Texas seems to be weathering this well. Much of
> the rest of the country is suffering and businesses are closing up shop.
And the unemployment rate barely made it into double digits for a couple of months.
> I've got some pretty good ideas on where things will go from here, but would rather not say.
Yeah, too embarassing when something else entirely happens.
<reams of your puerile shit any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed where it belongs>
234
So stupid that it cant even manage to work out who replys to my posts.
Vic Smith
Pretty much agree with all that. The stock market and home equity
bubbles kept the economy alive on smoke and debt, but those bubbles
were more and more feeding wages to a service economy as manufacturing
was off-shored. Besides restaurants you had the all those
home-related jobs in the trades, the real estate industry, etc, etc,
and all the vapor jobs that produced nothing except food for the
bubbles, leaning on the bubbles.
>I've got some pretty good ideas on where things will go from here, but
>would rather not say. Besides, I'm waiting for the resident welfare
>idiot to come back with one of his less than witty remarks, so that I
>can savor the smell of his bullshit.
>
You don't have to read it and if you do you don't have to let it
bother you or reply to it.
I don't see anything but going directly downhill unless we get more
manufacturing back here.
There are ways to do that, but all are painful.
I don't think the population is up to it, and certainly not their
wealthy leaders.
Don't mind saying where I think we're headed.
Somebody going to sue me if I'm all wrong?
I predict the American way of life will reach a point approaching the
Mexican economy unless there's a sea change.
Won't get to the Mad Max level, and that's a bright spot.
This "service economy" garbage the free-traders have been spouting for
years has always been a load of crap.
No economy as consumer oriented as ours can sustain itself without a
healthy piece of the economy devoted to producing the consumer goods
it purchases.
So the choice is start producing more, and/or lower consumption.
The lower consumption route will make high unemployment numbers and
the ills that come with it a fact of life. Welfare state.
Since there's no plan to revitalize manufacturing, I expect
unemployment to tick higher and higher until it either stabilizes
peacefully, or violent unrest breaks out and changes the game.
Violence is the likely result, since Americans' feeling of pride or
"exceptionlalism" or entitlement - take your pick - won't allow too
many millions of them to become peons.
And we do like our guns, right?
Just a guess. But when you go to store to buy a tool, an appliance,
clothing, any electronics and see that all of it is produced
elsewhere, it leads you to that guess.
I've always measured my financial health by comparing what's coming in
to what's going out. Simple frugal measurement.
This chart tells the story of American financial health.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/historical/gands.txt
Recently about half of that deficit is oil, the rest manufactured
goods.
Pretty much all you need to know to predict a change gonna come, oh
yes it will.
--Vic
The Real Bev
> You don't have to read it and if you do you don't have to let it bother you
> or reply to it.
If you actually want people to read what you write, you might consider
double-spacing between paragraphs -- reading a humongous block of text is
unpleasant and I generally won't do it because people who write that way are
usually excessively verbose.
Just a thought.
--
Cheers, Bev
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
"The almost universal access to higher education here in the US has
ruined a lot of potentially good manual laborers." -- Bob Hunt
Rod Speed
ALL modern first world economys are about a hell of a lot more than just manufacturing.
And the US not only has a hell of a lot of manufacturing even now,
it just happens to be the top manufacturing in the entire world too.
http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2008/09/23/top-manufacturing-countries-in-2007/
> There are ways to do that,
Nope, even immense tarriffs wouldnt do that now, they'd just kill the US economy stone dead.
> but all are painful.
> I don't think the population is up to it,
They arent that stupid.
> and certainly not their wealthy leaders.
> Don't mind saying where I think we're headed.
> Somebody going to sue me if I'm all wrong?
> I predict the American way of life will reach a point approaching the
> Mexican economy unless there's a sea change.
Fools ran the same line during the great depression.
> Won't get to the Mad Max level, and that's a bright spot.
> This "service economy" garbage the free-traders have
> been spouting for years has always been a load of crap.
Nope, its the real world.
> No economy as consumer oriented as ours can sustain
> itself without a healthy piece of the economy devoted
> to producing the consumer goods it purchases.
Thats just plain wrong, and the US economy still does that
anyway, most obviously with cars, aircraft, movies, TV series,
music, PC software, pharmaceuticals, etc etc etc.
> So the choice is start producing more, and/or lower consumption.
Nope, and comsumtion has been dramatically lowered by the GFC anyway.
> The lower consumption route will make high unemployment
> numbers and the ills that come with it a fact of life. Welfare state.
Pure fantasy.
> Since there's no plan to revitalize manufacturing,
There cant be one.
> I expect unemployment to tick higher and higher until it either stabilizes
> peacefully, or violent unrest breaks out and changes the game.
How odd that we actually saw the exact opposite happen.
> Violence is the likely result,
How odd that we saw very little of that during the great depression.
> since Americans' feeling of pride or "exceptionlalism" or entitlement -
> take your pick - won't allow too many millions of them to become peons.
> And we do like our guns, right?
How odd that we saw very little of that during the great depression.
> Just a guess. But when you go to store to buy a tool,
> an appliance, clothing, any electronics and see that all
> of it is produced elsewhere, it leads you to that guess.
Pity about what appears on your TV, is used on
your PC, what you shove into your mouth etc etc etc.
> I've always measured my financial health by comparing what's
> coming in to what's going out. Simple frugal measurement.
> This chart tells the story of American financial health.
> http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/historical/gands.txt
Like hell it does. This is the one that actually shows that.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_gdp_history
> Recently about half of that deficit is oil, the rest manufactured goods.
> Pretty much all you need to know to predict a change gonna come, oh yes it will.
Pure fantasy.
Napoleon
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I don't see anything but going directly downhill unless we get more
>manufacturing back here.
Downhill it is then. Never going to get manufacturing back here. Ever.
The Chinese and it's African empire will do all the manufacturing.
They're not stupid.
>Don't mind saying where I think we're headed.
>Somebody going to sue me if I'm all wrong?
>I predict the American way of life will reach a point approaching the
>Mexican economy unless there's a sea change.
We're already there. Look around. Even the Mexican illegal immigrants
don't want to come here anymore. Actually I'm amazed there isn't more
drug violence in the good ole U S of A. That's only because the
majority of the population is too busy getting high and stoned on the
drugs instead of mapping out drug turfs and trying to make money off
sales (the "hoods" excepted).
>This "service economy" garbage the free-traders have been spouting for
>years has always been a load of crap.
Dollar stores and grass cutters. That's what fuels our economy now.
>Violence is the likely result, since Americans' feeling of pride or
>"exceptionlalism" or entitlement - take your pick - won't allow too
>many millions of them to become peons.
Nah. We're too lazy and bored for violence. No matter what happens
American Idol is on. Bread and circuses. This happened to the Roman
Empire too, but we're too lazy to learn from history, so we sit back
and pretend we're exceptional.
We're already peons. G-20 anyone?
Coffee's For Closers
der...@invalid.net says...
> "h" <tmc...@searchmachine.com> wrote:
> >Seriously. Is there ANYONE out there who hasn't plonked Rod Slow? Anyone?
> >Anyone?
> I continue to be surprised by the number of people who get caught
> up in useless dialogs with R.S.
He obviously has a lot of time on his hands. So he keeps going
on and on with each one, never tiring of it. The general
trolling also seems fairly continuous, so his wide net snares a
large number of people eventually.
> I miss the Soul Surgeon, Full Metal
> Grotus, and whoever it was that preceeded SS; anybody remember?
Isn't he called, "Milhous" or something like that now?
--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum
rvanson
wrote:
>On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 00:01:21 -0500, Vic Smith
><thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>I don't see anything but going directly downhill unless we get more
>>manufacturing back here.
>
>Downhill it is then. Never going to get manufacturing back here. Ever.
>The Chinese and it's African empire will do all the manufacturing.
>They're not stupid.
Yeah, in Africa they will really work for food, not money.
>>Don't mind saying where I think we're headed.
>>Somebody going to sue me if I'm all wrong?
>>I predict the American way of life will reach a point approaching the
>>Mexican economy unless there's a sea change.
>
>We're already there. Look around. Even the Mexican illegal immigrants
>don't want to come here anymore.
Thankfully for that. Let them go back to Mexico and take thier babies
with them. Dont like paying welfare for welfare cheats, for sure!
>Actually I'm amazed there isn't more
>drug violence in the good ole U S of A. That's only because the
>majority of the population is too busy getting high and stoned on the
>drugs instead of mapping out drug turfs and trying to make money off
>sales (the "hoods" excepted).
Or getting and staying drunk. I hear AA has lost lots of members since
the recession hit the US. Party time till te lights go out!
>
>>This "service economy" garbage the free-traders have been spouting for
>>years has always been a load of crap.
>
>Dollar stores and grass cutters. That's what fuels our economy now.
Service what? They dont even pump gas for you anymore.
>>Violence is the likely result, since Americans' feeling of pride or
>>"exceptionlalism" or entitlement - take your pick - won't allow too
>>many millions of them to become peons.
>
>Nah. We're too lazy and bored for violence. No matter what happens
>American Idol is on. Bread and circuses. This happened to the Roman
>Empire too, but we're too lazy to learn from history, so we sit back
>and pretend we're exceptional.
>
>We're already peons. G-20 anyone?
No kidding! We can go marching in the streets like they do in France,
but what good would it do?