America is doomed without industrial restoration
wis...@yahoo.com
the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
loss of US created wealth.
Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
Generating paper has never saved a country from its expoitators.
The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
powerhouse again
This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
http://www.numbersusa.com/ Numbers USA
http://www.wvwnews.net/ Western Voices World News
ted
John A. Weeks III
wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> loss of US created wealth.
Ummm, worker productivity has been at an all time high for quite
some time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months.
There is no issue with productivity.
> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
Ummm, the US is at an all time high for manufacturing at the moment.
We manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now
an issue right now.
> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> powerhouse again
That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand and hope it
goes away theory. Good luck with that.
-john-
--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 jo...@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================
Bama Brian
> In article <mh18p41mdshngs44p...@4ax.com>,
> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the loss
>> of US created wealth.
>
> Ummm, worker productivity has been at an all time high for quite some
> time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months. There is no
> issue with productivity.
>
>> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
>> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
> Ummm, the US is at an all time high for manufacturing at the moment. We
> manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now an issue
> right now.
Really? What, exactly? The US has perhaps 1% of the world ship-building
market, and we're down to 40% of the commercial airplane market.
Automobiles - well, let's not go there. But even most of the parts in
autos assembled here in the US are from off-shore sources.
TV's and radios? Nope, not a one built in the US. Cameras? Nope.
Computers? Nope. Computer chips? Nope. Clothes? Maybe a few, but
most are made in China. Furniture? Only the really high end stuff. Even
half of our food is imported.
So how is it that the US is in good shape, manufacturing-wise, John?
Aren't you aware that the fedgov counts goods manufactured offshore and
sold through American distributors as "American manufactured"? Take the
iPod, for example. Ninety percent of the cost of the gadget is earned
offshore by various manufacturers. Apple only gets about ten percent of
the money by selling it in the US. But the fedgov counts all of that
money as "American manufactured".
Here's the picture. The Chinese finance our government's debt by buying
securities. The government passes out the money to multitudes of special
interests. The recipients of the cash then buy Chinese goods, or other
off-shored goods. In the meantime, the Chinese rake off the interest
from the securities, and use the interest and the money we send back to
them to finance their ultra-modern cities and factories.
>> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
>> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
>> powerhouse again
>
> That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand and hope it goes
> away theory. Good luck with that.
The only way it's going to end is when the US workers' pay is on parity
with the lowest pay scales in the world, John. Maybe - and it's a big
maybe - that's when the manufacturing might come back to the US.
Even the so-called "information economy" has become a bust, what with
information being able to travel electrically at the speed of light. For
example, some Indian companies have set up to read American X-rays with
Indian doctors.
Some Indian companies have set up to provide legal services to Americans.
Then there's the off-shore surgery market, where for a fraction of the
American cost of surgery, a patient can go off-shore, get his surgery
done, get a reasonable hospital recovery stay, and get a vacation.
The future really doesn't look pretty for the US, John. Especially since
the new President wants to throw a trillion dollars at the problem, when
it was the government's pissing away taxpayer dollars that caused the
problem.
--
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
Democracy Highlander
> TV's and radios? Nope, not a one built in the US. Cameras? Nope.
> Computers? Nope. Computer chips? Nope. Clothes? Maybe a few, but
> most are made in China. Furniture? Only the really high end stuff. Even
> half of our food is imported.
You are correct. Our economy has been totally destroyed by the
braindamaged politics of free-trade/free-market/deregulation at any
cost.
> The only way it's going to end is when the US workers' pay is on parity
> with the lowest pay scales in the world, John. Maybe - and it's a big
> maybe - that's when the manufacturing might come back to the US.
IF AND ONLY IF we keep pushing for free-trade/free-markets/
deregulation ahead of national interest
you are 100% correct. The free market dogma where corporations should
have no social responsibility other than maximize ROI to useless idle
shareholders is what destroyed us, and if we keep believing in that
piece of trash it is guarantee to kill us all.
Fortunately, there are things we can do once we wake up from the big
lie and realize that our interest as human beings is not to maximize
the ROI to some useless idle rich but to make a decent living for all
of us.
The same 100M investment used to build a small factory can came from
either one multimillionaire putting down all 100M or can came from the
10000 citizens willing to build a factory for their comminity
each of them putting down the 10000 for the job. From where the 10k
productive have the 10k investment money ? The government can add an
extra tax on capital gain and dividends payed to the wealthy useless
idle.
> The future really doesn't look pretty for the US, John. Especially since
> the new President wants to throw a trillion dollars at the problem, when
> it was the government's pissing away taxpayer dollars that caused the
> problem.
The previous government pissed away a lot of tax money by giving
unworthy tax cuts to useless idle.
That imbecile policy have to be reversed, and all that money have to
be directly invested for the benefit of "we the people".
clams_casino
>
>
>The previous government pissed away a lot of tax money by giving
>unworthy tax cuts to useless idle.
>
>
>
Especially the financial bankers & Bank CEOs..
B1ackwater
>All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
>the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>
>In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
>loss of US created wealth.
>Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
>long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
>Generating paper has never saved a country from its expoitators.
>
>The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
>and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
>powerhouse again
>
>This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
>immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
- - - - - -
Leahy's gonna get all the near-slave labor he wants ... but
it's not gonna be from Mexico, but from AIG and Circuit City
and Starbucks and GM and ...... :-)
You've hit the nail on the head however. All the 'recovery'
talk is absolute BS unless American can rebuild/recapture
it's profitible industries. We HAVE to make stuff that we
can sell to other countries for a profit, LOTS of stuff.
There's just no way around it.
Without industry, we can have nothing more than a 'paper
recovery' - which will soon crumble back into what we've
got right now ... plus an extra terabuck or two of
unpayable debt.
We need a couple of things to accomplish this goal however.
First - and perhaps hardest to get - we need to take all the
profit out of "offshoring"/"outsourcing". Any money saved
using cheapo foreign labor ... gotta tax it right back out
of the equation. No loopholes. Don't charge 'em MORE than
what a theoretical American worker would make - sometimes
we NEED foreign expertise - but don't let it be any cheaper
than domestic expertise.
Next - NAFTA and its ilk have to go away. That includes
(un)fair trade agreements with europe and China too.
In short, for awhile at least, we have to become more
protectionistic. It's not an ideological thing, it's
a PRACTICAL NEED for our time and situation. Industries
and money need to be re-concentrated HERE for long enough
to do real good.
We can work out new trade deals with those other nations,
ones that involve meeting needs we can't meet ourselves,
ones that don't leave us holding the short end of the stick
either. The present situation ... geez, you'd think we were
still re-habing europe for WW-2 ......
In short, OUR industries have to be treated like the
family jewels from now on - something we always guard,
something we never leave out for the maid or that
dopehead cousin to steal away bit by bit. America DOES
have much to offer, we're STILL cutting edge in a lot
of areas and CAN be competitive in many other areas IF
that becomes the new paradigm, replacing "Get rich quick
and to hell with the business and America".
Democracy Highlander
Probably we can make a bit more sense of how and why this recession
has been triggered
if we investigate the inner-workings of businessmen brains:
====================
The businessman brain is build primary of 2 neurons, one for each side
of the nose tuned to the smell of money. Each of those 2 neurons are
cross-wired into the locomotor system right nostril neuron fire left
limbs, left nostril
neuron control right limbs.
The locomotor limbs move at a speed directly proportional with the
signal they get from the neuron.
When there is no smell at all the businessmen stay.
When the smell is sensed equal by both nostrils, the limbs move at an
equal speed, so the businessman move ahead.
When the smell is sensed stronger into a nostril, the opposite
limbs move faster that the other side so the businessman turn to that
direction.
If the smell remain equal in both nostrils but the intensity decrease
in time, the third neuron fire so businessman turn 180 degree.
When whiskers sense touch, the businessman open the mouth and eat.
This reflex is trigger by his fourth and last neuron in businessman
brain.
residualse...@gmail.com
> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
> the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>
> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> loss of US created wealth. Unless the US can rebuild its
> manufacturing capability it will be a
> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
China's current economic tumble shows that even
a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
an economy from a downturn -
>
> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> powerhouse again
> This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
Even if our economy was self-sustaining requiring no imports or
exports AND all immigration was eliminated - - such situation
would still not guarantee economic health. Why? Because
wealth is a man-man artificial abstract concept - what people
peg as worthy or less worthy. Economic wealth is for the most
part not set by physical constructs - but by temporal
social norms and values. A healthy economy is really
a Game or Activity-Event that support social norms and values
of that society. A unhealthy economy is not the breakdown
of production but of the human relationships that are formed
for mutual benefit. When the game is no longer beneficial
people stop playing - e.g. Mayan Civilization.
Mark M.
> On Feb 12, 6:26 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
>>the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>
>
>
>>In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
>>loss of US created wealth. Unless the US can rebuild its
>>manufacturing capability it will be a
>>long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
>
> China's current economic tumble shows that even
> a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
> capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
> an economy from a downturn -
China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of what they produce.
Mark M.
Democracy Highlander
> China's current economic tumble shows that even
> a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
> capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
> an economy from a downturn -
Do not cry for China. If they really want, they can double or more
their living standard overnight with a simple economic-political
decision: Let the yuan free simultaneously with imposing unbearable
penalties to
any manufacturer who dismantle Chinese factories to move them
offshore.
Of course, if they do this simultaneously with them approaching our
current lifestyle, this will threw us toward their level of life.
China former economic policies made a lot of sense to encourage
imbecile US corporations to close their factories and move them in
China due to cheap labor. By this, they were able to industrialize
itself
in 20 years at the level the West industrialized in 200 years, and
simultaneously importing know-how and advanced technologies. But to
achieve this goal, they paid a very hig price by forcefully keeping
their own population at poverty levels. Once the West does not do that
anymore, it make no sense for China to play the same game.
Yes, with a strike of the pen the Chinese workers can become one of
the highest paid in the world (keep in mind, real wealth have nothing
to do with money but with how much goods and services you can buy with
the money you have). It also make a lot of sense for China to do that
if they want to weaken the west economies (mainly US) at the point of
total collapse of western civilization. A war which China can win
without a single bullet, just because of out imbecile and criminal
"free-market/free-trade" dogma.
> Even if our economy was self-sustaining requiring no imports or
> exports AND all immigration was eliminated - - such situation
> would still not guarantee economic health. Why? Because
> wealth is a man-man artificial abstract concept - what people
> peg as worthy or less worthy. Economic wealth is for the most
> part not set by physical constructs - but by temporal
> social norms and values. A healthy economy is really
> a Game or Activity-Event that support social norms and values
> of that society. A unhealthy economy is not the breakdown
> of production but of the human relationships that are formed
> for mutual benefit. When the game is no longer beneficial
> people stop playing - e.g. Mayan Civilization.
Not quite. Wealth it is a dual concept, both abstract and real.
The best economic definition of wealth is the one based on survival
time.
The wealth is the amount of time you can survive DECENTLY if you stop
having any income.
If this is 5 days, you are dirty poor if is 5000 years you are
stinking rich.
The subjective/abstract part in this definition is the word DECENTLY.
For an African poor from (former ??? Republic of) Niger DECENT means
to have enough to eat every day so he do not starve again. For a US
middle class family, DECENT means a minimum 1500 sqft single family
home, 2 cars, one TV and one computer per person food, electricity,
Internet, health care etc...
But, having these differences weathered down, the economic definition
of wealth become very very real.
DanB (Previously DB)
I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth disparity
problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of affording what they
produce. And catching up with the present loss of exports would require
a big move toward domestic consumption.
residualse...@gmail.com
<democracy.highlan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 13, 6:38 pm, residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > China's current economic tumble shows that even
> > a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
> > capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
> > an economy from a downturn -
>
> Do not cry for China. If they really want, they can double or more
> their living standard overnight with a simple economic-political
> decision: Let the yuan free simultaneously with imposing unbearable
> penalties to any manufacturer who dismantle Chinese factories
> to move them offshore.
China's economy downturn demonstrates
how suspectible a manufacturing base
economy can be to market fluctuations.
It is not that the yuan is not floating but
that Chinese banks are not buying back
the yuan - instead the Chinese banks have
been buying US T-bill -- with the US dollars
gained by the exports and domestically
exchanging US dollars to yuans for domestic
usage at a fixed pegged price. This essentially
means the chinese are lending money so
US government can spend more than it makes
in tax revenues. Certain number of
chinese textitle factories are already moving
offshore to Vietnam and Thailand where
the labor can be and is much cheaper.
China's labor protection laws and financial
securities law /oversight are weak so
high employment is no guarantee of that's
you'll get paid for work/.service rendered
or that your financial investments is sound.
> Of course, if they do this simultaneously with them approaching our
> current lifestyle, this will threw us toward their level of life.
Economic globalization that most US politicians
support is suppose to eventually equalize and
transform all local economies (into one big
massive global economy) but local standard of
living. The downside to a global economy is that
when there is a downturn - its global - there is no
where to hide.
>
> China former economic policies made a lot of sense to encourage
> imbecile US corporations to close their factories and move them in
> China due to cheap labor. By this, they were able to industrialize
> itself in 20 years at the level the West industrialized in 200 years, and
> simultaneously importing know-how and advanced technologies. But to
> achieve this goal, they paid a very hig price by forcefully keeping
> their own population at poverty levels. Once the West does not do that
> anymore, it make no sense for China to play the same game.
>
US corporation also move their factories to places like
Ireland, Vietnam, Mexico, Brazil, and Canada, too.
China is a very big country - and a good portion of its
eastern rural provinces are not industrialized. One of
the reasons many in China are still poor is not because
labor was cheap but that technological assess,
access to capital, and commerical licensing access
is still very much restricted.
> Yes, with a strike of the pen the Chinese workers can become one of
> the highest paid in the world (keep in mind, real wealth have nothing
> to do with money but with how much goods and services you can buy with
> the money you have). It also make a lot of sense for China to do that
> if they want to weaken the west economies (mainly US) at the point of
> total collapse of western civilization. A war which China can win
> without a single bullet, just because of out imbecile and criminal
> "free-market/free-trade" dogma.
A higher evalation of the yuan vs. the US dollar would not
necessarily
make goods and services cheaper for the chinese unless those goods
and services were from the USA. Other goods like a barrel of crude
oil may just increase in cost to adjust for the increase evaluation of
the yuan. Nor would having a higher evaluation make accesss to
certain goods and serives available to the chinese, case in point
the USA import-export regulations bans dual-use technologies from
being sold to China.
Your definition strays from the truth in that
it cannot explain the great disparity of income and
compensation in the USA, The problem is that as
economic agents, like corporate giants, become
very large, there is a huge separation between those
that actually generate goods and services and those
that just own or *manage* or *sell* them. When
this separation occurs - the rational for income
and compensation become abstractions. As you
pointed out economic standards vary by region
such that what is *decent* in Niger would be
unacceptable in Texas. Rather that say that wealth
is a pure abstraction - I wanted to say that wealth
is about part of a social contract that reflects the
values of the community. For example, Superstar
Michael Jackson is rich because people value
his singing and therefore paid alot of money for his
musical performances. Likewise, when society
started relying more on motor vehicles, the market
for the horse and buggy carriages went south.
Having guild or closed labor pool, e.g. lawyers,
occurs because society values one labor group
over another and thus gives that labor group
more economic leverage than others, e.g.
video rental store sale clerks.
residualse...@gmail.com
> Mark M. wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Unfortunately, many if not most of china's factory workers are migrant
workers
coming in from the rural countryside/inner provinces and are paid very
little if
they are paid at all. Their economic condition cannot be improve by
waving
the magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation. The
only
financial mechanism that has been shown to improve the economic
opportunity
of the poor has been micro-capitalization (micro-loans) and small
business
incubator/development programs (which were shown to work in
Banglesdesh).
Economic opportunity is not created by giving money or credit to
large
corporations or by every single person. Rather economic growth and
opportunity
is found by searching for and empowering those relationships which
are capable for providing services and products that the market/
community needs and desires. Empowerment involves extension of
credit, market access, transfer of skills, and soforth.
Rod Speed
> On Feb 13, 10:03 pm, "DanB (Previously DB)" <a...@some.net> wrote:
>> Mark M. wrote:
>>> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Feb 12, 6:26 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the
>>>>> debt... the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>>
>>>>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
>>>>> loss of US created wealth. Unless the US can rebuild its
>>>>> manufacturing capability it will be a
>>>>> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>>
>>>> China's current economic tumble shows that even
>>>> a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
>>>> capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
>>>> an economy from a downturn -
>>
>>> China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of
>>> what they produce.
>>
>> I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth
>> disparity problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of
>> affording what they produce. And catching up with the present loss
>> of exports would require
>> a big move toward domestic consumption.
>>
>> http://lakeweb.com/money/Social%20Unrest%20in%20China.pdf-
> Unfortunately, many if not most of china's factory workers are migrant
> workers coming in from the rural countryside/inner provinces
Yes.
> and are paid very little if they are paid at all.
That last is a mindless pig ignorant lie. They wouldnt be coming
to the factorys if they werent being paid to work in them.
> Their economic condition cannot be improve by waving the
> magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation.
Correct.
> The only financial mechanism that has been shown to improve the
> economic opportunity of the poor has been micro-capitalization
> (micro-loans) and small business incubator/development
> programs (which were shown to work in Banglesdesh).
Wrong. The other obvious approach is exports and those working
in those factorys buying the goods that the factorys produce.
And they all do that last.
> Economic opportunity is not created by giving money or credit to large corporations
Corse it is.
> or by every single person.
That can do it too, particularly when they dont have large debts that they choose to pay down instead.
> Rather economic growth and opportunity is found by searching for
> and empowering those relationships which are capable for providing
> services and products that the market/community needs and desires.
Thats just one approach that works too.
> Empowerment involves extension of credit, market access, transfer of skills, and soforth.
And is just one approach that works.
John A. Weeks III
<fd5a3afc20f1c160...@msgid.frell.theremailer.net>,
Fritz Wuehler <fr...@spamexpire-200902.rodent.frell.theremailer.net>
wrote:
> Of course you are referring to the producing of theft, the production of
> commercial corporate owned Faux news, the promotion and production of world
> subjugation through capitalist exploitation via murder, rape, torture,
> education, individual rights of those who command these to line their
> pockets, and put America and Americans up for sale. You and yours manufacture
> misery because you are stupid selfish little prick demons that elect witch
> doctors as your leaders. Those who'd just as soon take it up the ass, then in
> the mouth. We know you, you perverted little fucktard dimwit.
Sounds like you have some unresolved issues. Are you sure that
it is safe for you to be out in public without you having taken
your meds today?
Mark M.
> Mark M. wrote:
>
>> residualse...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 12, 6:26 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
>>>> the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
>>>> loss of US created wealth. Unless the US can rebuild its
>>>> manufacturing capability it will be a
>>>> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> China's current economic tumble shows that even
>>> a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
>>> capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
>>> an economy from a downturn -
>>
>>
>> China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of what
>> they produce.
>
>
> I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth disparity
> problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of affording what they
> produce.
Of course higher wages must precede greater consumption.
Mark M.
DanB (Previously DB)
> On Feb 13, 10:03 pm, "DanB (Previously DB)" <a...@some.net> wrote:
>> Mark M. wrote:
>>> China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of what
>>> they produce.
>> I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth disparity
>> problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of affording what they
>> produce. And catching up with the present loss of exports would require
>> a big move toward domestic consumption.
>>
>> http://lakeweb.com/money/Social%20Unrest%20in%20China.pdf-
> Unfortunately, many if not most of china's factory workers are migrant
> workers
> coming in from the rural countryside/inner provinces and are paid very
> little if
> they are paid at all. Their economic condition cannot be improve by
> waving
> the magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation. The
> only
> financial mechanism that has been shown to improve the economic
> opportunity
> of the poor has been micro-capitalization (micro-loans) and small
> business
> incubator/development programs (which were shown to work in
> Banglesdesh).
> Economic opportunity is not created by giving money or credit to
> large
> corporations or by every single person. Rather economic growth and
> opportunity
> is found by searching for and empowering those relationships which
> are capable for providing services and products that the market/
> community needs and desires. Empowerment involves extension of
> credit, market access, transfer of skills, and soforth.
>
Micro-capitalization has worked in back water countries where the
government is weak and the 'bank' is benign. The central government of
China's weakness is that the lower downs are mostly corrupt. I don't see
this as a place where micro capping the migrant worker into independence
could ever work. The China financial freighter is geared for global
export. It would be a monumental feat to turn that around.
John A. Weeks III
"Mark M." <ma...@ztech.com> wrote:
That isn't always the case. What we are seeing right now is that
people are concerned about the future. As a result, they are
diverting what they normally spend into paying down debt and
increasing savings. When large numbers of people do that all
at the same time, it can cut down on consumption enough to
cause a spiral effect of layoffs. If people had confidence
in the future, they could increase their spending by putting
less into debt payoff and savings.
DanB (Previously DB)
Yes, but there is a catch 22. Migrant workers in China are suffering
from large pay cuts. And those are the ones that are not being laid off.
Democracy Highlander
> China's economy downturn demonstrates
> how suspectible a manufacturing base
> economy can be to market fluctuations.
Yes, IF AND ONLY IF the manufacturing country is bound to obey blindly
the market.
China is doing that (in purpose, at the price of harming their own
people) because they
still have (or anticipate to have for the foreseeable future) a
positive influx of capital/technology/know how from Western world.
Once for one of many possible reasons, the influx of capital in China
stops I bet China will not be as stupid as US to obey the will of
criminal free-marketeers and will take action to keep
the industry inside and produce for their own people.
> It is not that the yuan is not floating but
> that Chinese banks are not buying back
> the yuan - instead the Chinese banks have
> been buying US T-bill -- with the US dollars
> gained by the exports and domestically
> exchanging US dollars to yuans for domestic
> usage at a fixed pegged price. This essentially
> means the chinese are lending money so
> US government can spend more than it makes
> in tax revenues.
The big question is WHY is doing China this ? Is anyone naive enough
to believe that China is
undermining their own people just because they like US ? Do they
impoverish their own people to provide us a life in luxury because
they love us sooooo much ? Or because they are committed to the "noble
cause of success of capitalism in the world" ?
Let be serious ! China is exploiting at maximum our imbecile belief in
free-trade/free-market mythologies.
They score a double hit with this policy:
- They industrialize themselves at a rate unseen anywhere else in the
world
- They de-industrialize the west, weakening it ability to make stand
against China
Keep in mind that you can not send out US soldiers naked on the
battlefield and all the US factories making underwear, socks and
shirts are already moved offshore, most of them in ..... China.
An army is only as strong as the industry behind it, able to cloth,
feed and furnish them.
This is why US won the WW2. The Germans were better trained, the
fanaticism of Japanese made them way more brave than US privates. But
US was able to rally behind it army an industrial force unmatched by
any of them and we crushed them with pure technological superiority.
China looked and learned, and now they are building a huge industrial
complex while US is dismantling it factories and give them as gift to
Chinese in the name on free-trade.
The economic naive will say: "We still keep in US all the military
industry so we are safe".
"Those who did not learn history are doomed to repeat it". This is
exactly what triggered the collapse of Soviet Union. They pushed all
their resources in military industry neglecting the civilian industry,
by this they went at the beginning ahead US with Sputnik and Gagarin.
By this they were able to manufacture a nuclear, chemical and
biological arsenal at least twice as big as US. But they payed for
that.
When a discovery was made in military industry in USSR, it was always
hold as secret.
When a discovery was made in military industry in US if it was not
something with direct implication in weapon technology it was released
to the civilian industry.
In time, civilian industry in US was able to use those discoveries to
produce better tools which they sold back to military industry making
them more productive. At the same time, civilian industry in USSR
stagnated and was continuously depleted by their top talents who were
taken by military.
In US the continuous improvement of civilian industry provided the
basis for new advances in military technologies who bought cheaper
commercial products for their needs, in meantime in USSR every
advanced piece of equipment was specially manufactured for military,
very expensive. USSR military stagnated and become a burden for the
country, while US military become an engine of innovation and progress
for US. In the end USSR collapse since they just could not bear the
weight of their military complex, while US prosper.
However, today by un-industrializing the US in the name of free-trade
we repeat EXACTLY the same mistakes which brought down USSR. For a
military complex to thrive and prosper, it need to be integrated and
advance hand in hand with it civilian industrial base. If we are
idiots enough to offshore all our civilian industry to China, guess
who will become the next military superpower, and who will collapse
exactly as USSR did ?
> Economic globalization that most US politicians
> support is suppose to eventually equalize and
> transform all local economies (into one big
> massive global economy) but local standard of
> living. The downside to a global economy is that
> when there is a downturn - its global - there is no
> where to hide.
It hides deep in China undergrounds... Just wait and see.
> US corporation also move their factories to places like
> Ireland, Vietnam, Mexico, Brazil, and Canada, too.
Yes they did, and the idiots are our corrupted politicians who
supported free-trade / free-markets dogma at the cost of destroying US
economy for a campaign donation from PAC groups.
m...@privacy.net
> 'Capitalism' is inherently a positive-feedback system ... and
> therefore highly unstable. Left alone, it oscillates wildly
> between boom and bust. While this may serve a few savvy (or
> lucky) speculators & investors it's not GOOD enough as the
> basis for modern 1st-world economies & nations. It HAS to be
> tempered, regulated, plugged into some negative feedback in
> order to damp-out the oscillations.
Interesting!
have some links on this?
Democracy Highlander
Mark M.
Where are you getting this?
People are getting laid off. People are defaulting on their mortgages. People
can't afford the basic necessities, and you think they are paying off their
debts and saving?
Are you nuts?
Mark M.
John A. Weeks III
"Mark M." <ma...@ztech.com> wrote:
The data doesn't lie. Perhaps you need to do a bit of reading and
come up to speed on current economic statistics.
torresD
residualse...@gmail.com
Aggregate statistics never tell the whole story.
I've been reading reports on a fairly consistent basis
over the last ten years of of different incidents in
China where factory and construction workers
are not paid for several months (they are paid
on a montly basis) and where the employers/owners
have either runaway or declared bankruptcy. During
the economic boom these incidents did occur
because of poor management, weak labor
protection laws, and China's inadequate and
primitive judicial system.
>
> > Their economic condition cannot be improve by waving the
> > magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation.
>
> Correct.
>
> > The only financial mechanism that has been shown to improve the
> > economic opportunity of the poor has been micro-capitalization
> > (micro-loans) and small business incubator/development
> > programs (which were shown to work in Banglesdesh).
>
> Wrong. The other obvious approach is exports and those working
> in those factorys buying the goods that the factorys produce.
> And they all do that last.
I totally disagree with your assessment.
There is a high distribution and transaction cost to
Import Export - which favors large firms over smaller
firms. For example, while a factory in india could
make and sell pharmaceticals very cheaply in the
USA - they are banned for doing so. Even when
a factory in Canada could make and sell a generic
drug in the USA for very cheap - often a larger
firm will *buy out* (pay a annual stipend) to that
Canadian generic drug maker to NOT make a
particular generic drug - as to create a monopoly
/exclusive market for their existing name brand
designer drug. In addition, dual use technology
restrictions limit many technologies from being
exported in the USA, e.g. advance GPS
equipment or encryption security programs.
One has to go through an array of regulatory
barriers to import or export a motor vehicle -
such initial cost is too high for most smaller firms.
>
> > Economic opportunity is not created by giving money or credit to large corporations
>
> Corse it is.
>
> > or by every single person.
>
> That can do it too, particularly when they dont have large debts that they choose to pay down instead.
Economic opportunity is not only limited
by debt and capital but by other legal matters
that are directly linked to our way of governing.
The USA economy is not driven by free markets but
by technological/intellectual property based
monopolies, e.g. copyrighted images like
"mickey mouse" and patents for microprocessors
to hybrid corn seeds.
In addition, another hi-profit part
of the US economy is based on
government handouts/licenses/grants,
e.g. a radio frequency-bandwidth to make public
broadcast, rights to harvest trees from public
lands, rights to mine for minerals from public
lands, the right to graze cattle over public
lands, and/or to fish along the coast.
>
> > Rather economic growth and opportunity is found by searching for
> > and empowering those relationships which are capable for providing
> > services and products that the market/community needs and desires.
>
> Thats just one approach that works too.
>
> > Empowerment involves extension of credit, market access, transfer of skills, and soforth.
>
> And is just one approach that works.-
Morton Davis
"Fritz Wuehler" <fr...@spamexpire-200902.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> wrote
in message
news:fd5a3afc20f1c160...@msgid.frell.theremailer.net...
> In article <john-25663E.0...@news-1.octanews.net>
> "John A. Weeks III" <j...@johnweeks.com> wrote:
>>
>> In article <mh18p41mdshngs44ptbhnfq1rtq4iqs...@4ax.com>,
>> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> > In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
>> > loss of US created wealth.
>>
>> some time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months.
>> There is no issue with productivity.
>>
>> > Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
>> > long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>>
>> We manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now
>> an issue right now.
>>
>> > The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
>> > and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
>> > powerhouse again
>>
>> goes away theory. Good luck with that.
>>
>> -john-
>>
>> --
>> ======================================================================
>> John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 j...@johnweeks.com
>> Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
>> ======================================================================
>
> commercial corporate owned Faux news,
Who the fuck do you think owns ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN?
RD (The Sandman)
news:66Gll.516416$TT4.217959@attbi_s22:
>>> = John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854
>>> j...@johnweeks.com Newave Communications
>>> http://www.johnweeks.com
>>> =====================================================================
>>> =
>>
>> Of course you are referring to the producing of theft, the production
>> of commercial corporate owned Faux news,
>
> Who the fuck do you think owns ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN?
Oh, god, you are asking him to think........
--
Sleep well tonight.........RD (The Sandman)
http://home.comcast.net/~rdsandman
"Be who you are and say what you feel...Because those that
matter...don't mind...And those that mind...don't matter."
Rod Speed
>>>> Mark M. wrote
>>>>> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote
>>>>>>> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....
>>>>>>> the debt... the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>>>>>>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity..
>>>>>>> the loss of US created wealth. Unless the US can rebuild
>>>>>>> its manufacturing capability it will be a long slide into a
>>>>>>> third world level of subsistence.
>>>>>> China's current economic tumble shows that even
>>>>>> a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
>>>>>> capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
>>>>>> an economy from a downturn -
>>>>> China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of
>>>>> what they produce.
>>>> I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth
>>>> disparity problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of
>>>> affording what they produce. And catching up with the present loss
>>>> of exports would require a big move toward domestic consumption.
>>>> http://lakeweb.com/money/Social%20Unrest%20in%20China.pdf-
>>> Unfortunately, many if not most of china's factory workers are
>>> migrant workers coming in from the rural countryside/inner provinces
>> Yes.
>>> and are paid very little if they are paid at all.
>> That last is a mindless pig ignorant lie. They wouldnt be coming
>> to the factorys if they werent being paid to work in them.
> Aggregate statistics never tell the whole story.
Never said anything about any aggregate statistics.
If many of those migrant workers werent being paid at all,
you would not have seen tens of millions of them moving
from the rural countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
> I've been reading reports on a fairly consistent basis
> over the last ten years of of different incidents in China
> where factory and construction workers are not paid for
> several months (they are paid on a montly basis)
That does NOT mean that they werent ever paid at all.
> and where the employers/owners have
> either runaway or declared bankruptcy.
Sure, but while that certainly happens, it cant be happening
to the bulk of those migrant workers or we woudnt have
seen tens of millions of them moving from the rural
countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
> During the economic boom these incidents did occur
> because of poor management, weak labor protection
> laws, and China's inadequate and primitive judicial system.
Sure, but while that certainly happens, it cant be happening
to the bulk of those migrant workers or we woudnt have
seen tens of millions of them moving from the rural
countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
>>> Their economic condition cannot be improve by waving the
>>> magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation.
>> Correct.
>>> The only financial mechanism that has been shown to improve the
>>> economic opportunity of the poor has been micro-capitalization
>>> (micro-loans) and small business incubator/development
>>> programs (which were shown to work in Banglesdesh).
>> Wrong. The other obvious approach is exports and those working
>> in those factorys buying the goods that the factorys produce.
>> And they all do that last.
> I totally disagree with your assessment.
Doesnt change a thing.
> There is a high distribution and transaction cost to Import Export
Wrong again. You can deal with them yourself any time using ebay.
> - which favors large firms over smaller firms.
You still see plenty using ebay anyway.
> For example, while a factory in india could
> make and sell pharmaceticals very cheaply
> in the USA - they are banned for doing so.
And no one bans most of what china exports.
> Even when a factory in Canada could make and sell
> a generic drug in the USA for very cheap - often a
> larger firm will *buy out* (pay a annual stipend) to that
> Canadian generic drug maker to NOT make a particular
> generic drug - as to create a monopoly/exclusive market
> for their existing name brand designer drug.
Doesnt apply to the vast bulk of what china exports.
Thats as silly as claiming that just because heroin or
cocaine trafficking is banned, that has any relevance
what so ever to what china can export fine.
> In addition, dual use technology restrictions
> limit many technologies from being
> exported in the USA, e.g. advance GPS
> equipment or encryption security programs.
> One has to go through an array of regulatory
> barriers to import or export a motor vehicle -
> such initial cost is too high for most smaller firms.
Pity about all the rest of china's exports where that doesnt apply.
>>> Economic opportunity is not created by giving money or credit to large corporations
>> Corse it is.
>>> or by every single person.
>> That can do it too, particularly when they dont have
>> large debts that they choose to pay down instead.
> Economic opportunity is not only limited
> by debt and capital but by other legal matters
> that are directly linked to our way of governing.
Irrelevant to what china can do to boost its economy.
> The USA economy is not driven by free markets but by
> technological/intellectual property based monopolies,
Wrong again. The absolute vast bulk of the US economy
is actually driven by services which arent even licensed.
> e.g. copyrighted images like "mickey mouse" and
> patents for microprocessors to hybrid corn seeds.
Thats a trivial part of the total US economy.
> In addition, another hi-profit part of the US economy
> is based on government handouts/licenses/grants,
> e.g. a radio frequency-bandwidth to make public
> broadcast, rights to harvest trees from public
> lands, rights to mine for minerals from public
> lands, the right to graze cattle over public
> lands, and/or to fish along the coast.
Also a trivial part of the total US economy.
zzbunker
> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
> the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>
> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> loss of US created wealth.
> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
Well, the USian idlots have been so anti-work, anti-industry, anti-
thinking,
anti-profit for so long. That's mostly why the people with brains
just work on
post McDonald's robots GPS, Pv Cells, laser-guided masers,
On-Line Banking, On-Line Publishing, and RISC++++ anymore.
And just let the Eve Stooge neo-stooges work on neo->
>
> Generating paper has never saved a country from its expoitators.
>
> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> powerhouse again
>
> This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
>
> http://www.numbersusa.com/ Numbers USA
>
> http://www.wvwnews.net/ Western Voices World News
>
> ted
Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )
"John A. Weeks III" wrote:
>
> In article <mh18p41mdshngs44p...@4ax.com>,
> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> > loss of US created wealth.
>
> Ummm, worker productivity has been at an all time high for quite
> some time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months.
> There is no issue with productivity.
>
> > Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> > long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
> Ummm, the US is at an all time high for manufacturing at the moment.
> We manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now
> an issue right now.
>
> > The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> > and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> > powerhouse again
>
> That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand and hope it
> goes away theory. Good luck with that.
>
There is an issue with regards to the balance of trade. For some
reason the Chinese economy is tanking, imports are going down, and
yet they are still running about a $30bn a month trade surplus.
Meanwhile the people are starving. How about employing Americans to
grow some food and sell it to China? The blackhole that this money
is going into needs to stop.
--
He and Evie soon fell into a conversation of the "No, I didn't;
yes, you did" type--conversation which, though fascinating to those
who are engaged in it, neither desires nor deserves the attention
of others.
-+E.M. Forster, "Howards End"
Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )
wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
> the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>
> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> loss of US created wealth.
> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
> Generating paper has never saved a country from its expoitators.
>
> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> powerhouse again
>
Kook Alert.
Rod Speed
> John A. Weeks III wrote
>>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the loss of US created wealth.
>> Ummm, worker productivity has been at an all time high for quite
>> some time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months.
>> There is no issue with productivity.
>>> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
>>> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>> Ummm, the US is at an all time high for manufacturing at the moment.
>> We manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now
>> an issue right now.
>>> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
>>> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
>>> powerhouse again
>> That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand and hope it
>> goes away theory. Good luck with that.
> There is an issue with regards to the balance of trade.
> For some reason the Chinese economy is tanking,
Because the world economy is tanking and so exports are dropping.
> imports are going down,
Because the chinese economy is tanking.
> and yet they are still running about a $30bn a month trade surplus.
Yep, because even when the world economy is tanking, that does not mean zero exports.
People still need to buy lots of stuff.
> Meanwhile the people are starving.
Nope, no chinese are starving.
> How about employing Americans to grow some food and sell it to China?
They do.
> The blackhole that this money is going into needs to stop.
Easier said than done.
Hiccum Blurpaedius
> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
> the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>
> loss of US created wealth.
> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
>
> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> powerhouse again
>
> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
>
> http://www.numbersusa.com/ Numbers USA
>
> http://www.wvwnews.net/ Western Voices World News
>
> ted
That is the solution.
We manufature criminals.
Then we manufacture drugs to sedate the voters.
Then we allow illegal immigrants into the country.
Then we sedate the voters. Those that refuse will be prosecuted.
Now all we have yo do is sedate the rest of the world so we cam allow
aliens from other planets to work for social security.
Reganomics and the trickle down economy.
Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )
Rod Speed wrote:
>
> Bill Bonde wrote
> > John A. Weeks III wrote
> >> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the loss of US created wealth.
>
> >> Ummm, worker productivity has been at an all time high for quite
> >> some time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months.
> >> There is no issue with productivity.
>
> >>> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> >>> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
> >> Ummm, the US is at an all time high for manufacturing at the moment.
> >> We manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now
> >> an issue right now.
>
> >>> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> >>> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> >>> powerhouse again
>
> >> That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand and hope it
> >> goes away theory. Good luck with that.
>
> > There is an issue with regards to the balance of trade.
> > For some reason the Chinese economy is tanking,
>
> Because the world economy is tanking and so exports are dropping.
>
I know that, the issue is why are their imports also dropped
quickly even as they have a trade surplus? Why not export $30bn a
month in food to China and balance things up? They could eat and
the US would be slightly less in trouble.
> > imports are going down,
>
> Because the chinese economy is tanking.
>
But they still have $30bn a month.
> > and yet they are still running about a $30bn a month trade surplus.
>
> Yep, because even when the world economy is tanking, that does not mean zero exports.
>
> People still need to buy lots of stuff.
>
But why are the Chinse starving when they get $30bn a month in
surplus?
> > Meanwhile the people are starving.
>
> Nope, no chinese are starving.
>
I bet you claim that Americans are.
> > How about employing Americans to grow some food and sell it to China?
>
> They do.
>
I'm talking about to make up the trade difference.
> > The blackhole that this money is going into needs to stop.
>
> Easier said than done.
>
People could start talking about it.
Rod Speed
>>>>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity..
>>>>> the loss of US created wealth.
>>>> Ummm, worker productivity has been at an all time high for quite
>>>> some time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months.
>>>> There is no issue with productivity.
>>>>> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it
>>>>> will be a long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>>>> Ummm, the US is at an all time high for manufacturing at the
>>>> moment. We manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago.
>>>> That is now an issue right now.
>>>>> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers - and
>>>>> only US workers - the ability to make this country into a powerhouse again
>>>> That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand
>>>> and hope it goes away theory. Good luck with that.
>>> There is an issue with regards to the balance of trade.
>>> For some reason the Chinese economy is tanking,
>> Because the world economy is tanking and so exports are dropping.
> I know that, the issue is why are their imports also dropped quickly
Because so many of them have lost their jobs and hordes more worry about
how long they will have their jobs for, and so they dont buy whats imported.
> even as they have a trade surplus? Why not export
> $30bn a month in food to China and balance things up?
Because they arent interested in importing US food.
> They could eat and the US would be slightly less in trouble.
Yes, but they arent interested in importing US food.
>>> imports are going down,
>> Because the chinese economy is tanking.
> But they still have $30bn a month.
Yes, because the economy is taking and thats affecting both imports
and exports, and they still have a massive trade surplus in their favour.
>>> and yet they are still running about a $30bn a month trade surplus.
>> Yep, because even when the world economy is tanking, that does not mean zero exports.
>> People still need to buy lots of stuff.
> But why are the Chinse starving
No chinese are starving. They havent done that since the cultural revolution.
> when they get $30bn a month in surplus?
>>> Meanwhile the people are starving.
>> Nope, no chinese are starving.
> I bet you claim that Americans are.
Nope, I have in fact said repeatedly that the only americans who
are starving are those with mental conditions like anorexia etc.
They cant be starving with so many obscenely obese americans around.
When was the last time you saw an american with its ribs sticking out
like you see with concentration camps except those with anorexia etc ?
>>> How about employing Americans to grow some food and sell it to China?
>> They do.
> I'm talking about to make up the trade difference.
They grow enough of their own food to not need to import that much from america.
>>> The blackhole that this money is going into needs to stop.
>> Easier said than done.
> People could start talking about it.
They are, no one has been able to come up with any way to stop it happening.
Aviroce
with. Mark Twain, not one of my favorite as he is a racist, wrote:
One time, a group of citizens were fighting the board of education
until one guy among them yelled, "I read it in the Holly Book."
Every body stopped and listened.
He continued, "God created all idiots. And that was for practice.
Then he created the board of education." Everyone was perplexed as
well excited to hear him. Everyone had a laught or two and left the
gathering.
> Reganomics and the trickle down economy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Aviroce
Yahoo adapted to their file for publication. That article deals with
what America has been known for and that coincides with some of your
statements.
'The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
powerhouse again "
As for your,
"This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants! "
the Army announced plans to induct even temporary visa-ed Mexicans
into the Army to fill their quota. Needless to say, the military
complex had inducted over 88,000 illegal migrants into the Army,
Marines, and Navy and facilitated their USA citizenships while on
service of duty. Now they are openning the avenue for further
recruits.
Keep in mind these desparate Mexicans to make a living are "Slaves by
Choice." It is undfortunate. Even the Dollar Tree stores use
Mexicans for their dedicated labor for less. Rainbow clothing use
these Mexicans even in store management. When you pay an employee
twelve thousand dollars for work worth sixty thousand dollars, then
you got some choice to make.
What some of these businesses are forgetting about that American labor
is willing to go down in their wages just to land a job. I use a
handyman for $50 a day to fix my homes from sheet rock to roofing to
electrical work to heating and air conditionning. All workers are
Americans, black and white. No illegal aliens. That would be un-
American. Having said that I get offended to find an illegal alien
manning a Dollar Tree oe Rainbow stores while native Americans are
under his/her command. Are Americans being colonized?
zzbunker
<democracy.highlan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 2:53 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
> > Democracy Highlander wrote:
>
> > >The previous government pissed away a lot of tax money by giving
> > >unworthy tax cuts to useless idle.
>
> > Especially the financial bankers & Bank CEOs..
>
> Probably we can make a bit more sense of how and why this recession
> has been triggered
> if we investigate the inner-workings of businessmen brains:
>
> ====================
> The businessman brain is build primary of 2 neurons, one for each side
> of the nose tuned to the smell of money. Each of those 2 neurons are
> cross-wired into the locomotor system right nostril neuron fire left
> limbs, left nostril
> neuron control right limbs.
Many are far worse than that. Since the people with
actual post WWII science, engineering, medical,
and media education just keep the idiots when you
a Mack Truck to a Gas Turbine compeition, the
Mack Truck is not only going to lose it's going
to lose twice. Once to the people who know
engines work, and once to the people who know
how hydraulics work.
And when you bring a slide rule to a laser contest,
the slide rule is not only going to lose, it also
going to lose on the Moon.
And when you bring GM to a computerized Welding Contest,
GM is not only going to lose, but Ford, Chrysler, US Steel,
GE, Sears, AT&T, Exxon, Boeing, and Catepillar Tractors are
going to lose too.
And when you bring CBS to a Hologram Contest,
CBS is not only going to lose, it;s going to lose
in Primetime, and on The Weather Broadcast,
The Box Office, The Home Market, and
in the Printing Presses.
> The locomotor limbs move at a speed directly proportional with the
> signal they get from the neuron.
> When there is no smell at all the businessmen stay.
> When the smell is sensed equal by both nostrils, the limbs move at an
> equal speed, so the businessman move ahead.
> When the smell is sensed stronger into a nostril, the opposite
> limbs move faster that the other side so the businessman turn to that
> direction.
> If the smell remain equal in both nostrils but the intensity decrease
> in time, the third neuron fire so businessman turn 180 degree.
> When whiskers sense touch, the businessman open the mouth and eat.
> This reflex is trigger by his fourth and last neuron in businessman
> brain.
Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )
I didn't ask that, you changed what I asked. I want to know why the
exports are down and the country is still running a huge surplus?
> > even as they have a trade surplus? Why not export
> > $30bn a month in food to China and balance things up?
>
> Because they arent interested in importing US food.
>
They'd rather starve. But that's the problem, the US can't be the
dumping ground for the excess industrial capacity of the world any
more.
> > They could eat and the US would be slightly less in trouble.
>
> Yes, but they arent interested in importing US food.
>
But that's the problem.
> >>> imports are going down,
>
> >> Because the chinese economy is tanking.
>
> > But they still have $30bn a month.
>
> Yes, because the economy is taking and thats affecting both imports
> and exports, and they still have a massive trade surplus in their favour.
>
That's just restating what I said. Why can't they start using that
surplus to buy food so their people aren't starving?
> >>> and yet they are still running about a $30bn a month trade surplus.
>
> >> Yep, because even when the world economy is tanking, that does not mean zero exports.
>
> >> People still need to buy lots of stuff.
>
> > But why are the Chinse starving
>
> No chinese are starving. They havent done that since the cultural revolution.
>
And Americans are starving? Please. Look at rural China, it's not a
pretty picture.
> > when they get $30bn a month in surplus?
>
> >>> Meanwhile the people are starving.
>
> >> Nope, no chinese are starving.
>
> > I bet you claim that Americans are.
>
> Nope, I have in fact said repeatedly that the only americans who
> are starving are those with mental conditions like anorexia etc.
>
> They cant be starving with so many obscenely obese americans around.
>
That's what I said.
> When was the last time you saw an american with its ribs sticking out
> like you see with concentration camps except those with anorexia etc ?
>
I didn't claim that Americans were starving, that's what the
Liberals say.
> >>> How about employing Americans to grow some food and sell it to China?
>
> >> They do.
>
> > I'm talking about to make up the trade difference.
>
> They grow enough of their own food to not need to import that much from america.
>
No they don't. China hasn't even figured out food much less a
consumer economy.
> >>> The blackhole that this money is going into needs to stop.
>
> >> Easier said than done.
>
> > People could start talking about it.
>
> They are, no one has been able to come up with any way to stop it happening.
>
Boycott their products.
Rod Speed
No I didnt. I answered the question you asked.
> I want to know why the exports are down and
> the country is still running a huge surplus?
I told you. The exports are down because the world economy is tanking.
Imports are down too, because plenty of chinese have been laid off.
Because the rest of the world still needs to keep buying what
china exports, particularly basic stuff like clothes and food
and day to day basics like toothpaste that most dont
choose to do without, china still has a huge surplus.
>>> even as they have a trade surplus? Why not export
>>> $30bn a month in food to China and balance things up?
>> Because they arent interested in importing US food.
> They'd rather starve.
No one starves in china today.
> But that's the problem, the US can't be the dumping ground
> for the excess industrial capacity of the world any more.
Its never been that. America is the destination for only 30% of china's exports.
>>> They could eat and the US would be slightly less in trouble.
>> Yes, but they arent interested in importing US food.
> But that's the problem.
Nope, they are self sufficient in food now that they dumped communism.
>>>>> imports are going down,
>>>> Because the chinese economy is tanking.
>>> But they still have $30bn a month.
>> Yes, because the economy is taking and thats affecting both imports
>> and exports, and they still have a massive trade surplus in their favour.
> That's just restating what I said.
No its not.
> Why can't they start using that surplus to buy food so their people aren't starving?
NO ONE IS STARVING IN CHINA TODAY.
They dont even have stupid anorexics.
>>>>> and yet they are still running about a $30bn a month trade surplus.
>>>> Yep, because even when the world economy is tanking, that does not mean zero exports.
>>>> People still need to buy lots of stuff.
>>> But why are the Chinse starving
>> No chinese are starving. They havent done that since the cultural revolution.
> And Americans are starving?
Corse not. You wouldnt have an obesity epidemic if they were.
> Please. Look at rural China, it's not a pretty picture.
No one starves in rural china today.
No one starves in rural india today either.
>>> when they get $30bn a month in surplus?
>>>>> Meanwhile the people are starving.
>>>> Nope, no chinese are starving.
>>> I bet you claim that Americans are.
>> Nope, I have in fact said repeatedly that the only americans who
>> are starving are those with mental conditions like anorexia etc.
>> They cant be starving with so many obscenely obese americans around.
> That's what I said.
Nope.
>> When was the last time you saw an american with its ribs sticking out
>> like you see with concentration camps except those with anorexia etc ?
> I didn't claim that Americans were starving,
You did bet that I would claim that.
> that's what the Liberals say.
Their problem.
>>>>> How about employing Americans to grow some food and sell it to China?
>>>> They do.
>>> I'm talking about to make up the trade difference.
>> They grow enough of their own food to not need to import that much from america.
> No they don't.
Yes they do. China in fact exports quite a bit of food now.
> China hasn't even figured out food much less a consumer economy.
How odd that they export quite a bit of food now.
>>>>> The blackhole that this money is going into needs to stop.
>>>> Easier said than done.
>>> People could start talking about it.
>> They are, no one has been able to come up with any way to stop it happening.
> Boycott their products.
Not even possible now. There isnt any other source of much of the low cost consumer items now.
zzbunker
Of, course. Since that's the only thing any of those convenience
stores use for either electric help or anything else anymore.
Which is also why amymore the real engineers mostly build
Optical Computers, HDTV, Holograms, On-Line Banking,
On-Line Publishing, Post Ford Batteries, Adaptive A.I.
Fiber Optics, Pv Cell Energy, Post AT&T Phonics,
and Post GM Robotics.
>
> On Feb 12, 6:26 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
> > the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>
> > In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> > loss of US created wealth.
> > Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> > long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
> > Generating paper has never saved a country from its expoitators.
>
> > The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> > and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> > powerhouse again
>
> > This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
> > immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
>
> >http://www.numbersusa.com/ Numbers USA
>
> >http://www.wvwnews.net/ Western Voices World News
>
> > ted- Hide quoted text -
Bama Brian
The "real" engineers watch their designs being sent offshore for build.
They then watch as the offshore factory engineers blatantly copy their
design and flood the market with cheaper copies.
Even IBM sold their computer hardware market directly to a Chinese company.
--
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
zzbunker
> zzbunkerwrote:
Well, that was predestimed. Since it became obvious, quickly
after the AT&T breakup, that the only thing iBM knew about
computers was AT&T.
Which is also the people who knew about computer-engineering
jobs worked on Optical Computers, HDTV, Robotics,
and Laser Disks that aren't owned by G.M.
>
> --
> "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
> George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
>
> Cheers,
> Bama Brian
> Libertarian- Hide quoted text -
Bama Brian
Here's a partial list of things no longer made in the US:
Consumer goods: CD's, DVD's, CD/DVD players, laptops, desktops, hard
disk drives, DRAM, ROM, Flash RAM, TV's, HDTV's, Plasma TV's, LCD TV's,
Digital cameras, film cameras, computer games, telephones, cell phones,
watches, bicycles, motorcycles - except for perhaps half of Harley's,
iPOds, and so on.
Food products: Half of all produce is now grown offshore. Much canning
is done in China, where it is physically cheaper to ship the produce and
have it canned.
Clothing: Virtually all dresses, jeans, pants, underwear, coats,
shirts, socks and shoes.
Ocean going vessels: 1% made in the US - and those are for the US Navy.
Aircraft: Approximately 40% of commercial aircraft are built in the US.
Guns: Half of all guns and ammo are manufactured offshore.
Manufacturers such as Taurus, H&K, Glock, Browning, and Steyr, lead in
innovation.
Cars: An estimated sixty percent of the components of so-called
American cars are built offshore. The number is higher for the foreign
manufacturers.
Toys: Virtually all toys are manufactured offshore.
Robotics: There are an estimated 186,000 robots in use in the US.
World-wide there are over a million in use, with Japan being the number
one manufacturer and user. Even South Korea plans a robotic theme park,
estimated to cost over $1 billion. By contrast, the entire US output in
2008 is estimated at only $860 million.
My point is really simple. If we don't start bringing manufacturing
back on-shore, we'll all be happy just to be eating.
Rod Speed
Naively simplistic, actually.
> If we don't start bringing manufacturing back on-shore,
Taint gunna happen. No one is stupid enough to do it where its much more expensive.
> we'll all be happy just to be eating.
Mindlessly silly. Modern first world economys are about a hell of a lot more than just manufacturing.
zzbu...@netscape.net
But, that's because making CD's, DVDs and TVs is so trivial,
that's why the engineers with brains make MP3, MP4. GPS,
fiber optics, optical computers, holograms and holographic memory,
Laser-Jet Printers, and On-Line Publishing, and export the fluff to
the
Quantum reguritants anyway.
And since all the other stuff you listed are subsidiary
technologies,
that's why thry're exported.
Bama Brian
And you have identified the problem. Whether it is Congress, or the
unions, or the cost of labor, it all adds up to a lot of unemployed
Americans.
>
>> we'll all be happy just to be eating.
>
> Mindlessly silly. Modern first world economys are about a hell of a lot more than just manufacturing.
Such as what? Don't need as many accountants when there are no
factories. Don't need so many IT types for the same reason. Engineers
are having a hell of a bad time finding work these days. Even technical
work, such as design, analysis, and programming is offshored these days.
Unemployment continues to rise in a linear fashion and is now higher
than it has been in decades.
I pity those who muddled thru high school and thought the world owed
them a living; there are only so many burger flipper jobs.
Maybe we could all get degrees in finance and teach each other about
investments...
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Bama Brian wrote
>>> zzbunker wrote
>> Naively simplistic, actually.
And you howling about that aint gunna change that fundamental.
> Whether it is Congress, or the unions, or the cost of labor, it all adds up to a lot of unemployed Americans.
No it doesnt. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x%, with an immense legal
and illegal immigration rates, with the participation rate at an all time high.
>>> we'll all be happy just to be eating.
>> Mindlessly silly. Modern first world economys are about a hell of a lot more than just manufacturing.
> Such as what?
Oh, just a few tiny details like medical services, roads,
houses, infrastructure, the net, ebay, entertainment,
sports, food service, retail operations, etc etc etc.
> Don't need as many accountants when there are no factories.
Mindlessly silly. Accountants do a hell of a lot more
than just factorys in modern first world countrys.
> Don't need so many IT types for the same reason.
Mindlessly silly. IT types do a hell of a lot more
than just factorys in modern first world countrys.
> Engineers are having a hell of a bad time finding work these days.
Pig ignorant lie. In spades now that Obummer is spending so much in infrastructure rebuilding.
> Even technical work, such as design, analysis, and programming is offshored these days.
Some of it is, plenty of it isnt.
> Unemployment continues to rise in a linear fashion
Pig ignorant lie.
> and is now higher than it has been in decades.
Thats what recessions do.
> I pity those who muddled thru high school and thought the world owed them a living; there are only so many burger
> flipper jobs.
There's a hell of a lot more than just burger flipping and factory work in any modern first world economy.
> Maybe we could all get degrees in finance and teach each other about investments...
Makes a hell of a lot more sense to get qualified in medicine instead.
Stray Dog
Hey, guys, if you want to understand Rod Speed, then read the "Rod Speed
FAQ" (I didn't write it).....
The "Rod Speed FAQ" read it below or at the URL for yourself.....
- - - - - - - - -
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.internet.wireless/2006-07/ms
g00462.html
- - - - - - - - - -
After its recent emergence in the thread "How to calculate increase
of home wireless router range?", readers of this group may find
this useful. [based on a post in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage]
Who or What is Rod Speed?
Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod
Speed is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered
he can enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the
big, hard man" on the InterNet.
Rod is believed to be from Australia.
Rod certainly posts a lot. Why is that?
It relates back to the point about boosting his own self esteem by
what amounts to effectively having a wank in public. Rod's
personality, as exemplified by his posts, means he is practically
unemployable which means he sits around at home all day festering
away and getting worse and worse. This means he posts more and
more try and boost the old failing self esteem. Being unemployed
also means he as a lot of time on his hands to post in he first
place.
But maybe Rod really is a very clever and knowledgable person?
Clever? His posts wouldn't support that theory. As far as being
knowledgable, well, Rod has posted to various aus newsgroups
including invest, comms, and politics. He has posted to all as a
self professed "expert" and flames any and all who disagree with
him. Logically, here's no way any single individual could be
more than a jack of all trades across such a wide spread of
subject matter.
But maybe Rod really is an expert in some areas?
Possibly. However, his "bedside manner" prevents him from being
taken seriously by most normal people. Also, he has damaged his
credibility in areas where he might know what he's on about by
shooting his self in the foot in areas where he does not. For
example, in the case of subject matter such as politics, even a
view held by Albert Einstein cannot be little more than an
opinion and to vociferously denigrate an opposing opinion is
simply small mindedness and bigotry, the kind of which Einstein
himself fought against his whole life.
What is Rod Speed's main modus operandi?
Simple! He shoots off a half brained opinion in response to any
other post and touts that opinion as fact. When challenged, he
responds with vociferous and rabid denigration. He has an
instantly recognisable set of schoolboy put downs limited pretty
much to the following: "Pathetic, Puerile, Little Boy, try
harder, trivial, more lies, gutless wonder, wanker, etc etc".
The fact that Rod has been unable to come up with any new insults
says a lot about his outlook and intelligence.
But why do so many people respond to Rod in turn?
It has to do with effrontery and a lack of logic. Most people
who post have some basis of reason for what they write and when
Rod retorts with his usual denigration and derision they respond
emotionally rather than logically. It's like a teacher in a
class room who has a misbehaving pupil. The teacher challenges
the pupil to explain himself and the student responds with "***
off, Big Nose!" Even thought the teacher has a fairly normal
proboscis, he gets a dent in his self-esteem and might resort to
an emotional repsonse like "yeah? well your *** wouldn't fill a
pop rivet, punk", which merely invites some oneupmanship from the
naughty pupil. Of course, the teacher should not have justified
the initial comment with a response, especially in front of the
class. The correct response was "please report to the
headmaster's office right NOW!"
What is a "RodBot"?
Some respondents in aus.invest built a "virtual Rod" which was
indiscernable from the "real" Rod. Net users could enter an
opinion or even a fact and the RoDBot would tell them they were
pathetic lying schoolboys who should be able to do better or some
equally pithy Rod Speedism.
Are you saying that Rod Speed is a Troll?
You got it!
What is the best way to handle Rod Speed?
KillFile!
Rod Speed
delusions about being a dog, desperately cowering behind
Stray Dog desperately attempted to bullshit and lie its way out
of its predicament and fooled absolutely no one at all, as always.
No surprise that it got the bums rush, right out the door, onto its lard arse.
No surprise that its so pathetically bitter and twisted about it.
Bama Brian
Medical services are being offshored. Little things like the reading of
x-rays, expensive surgeries, and so on. All the while the fedgov keeps
dumping new regulations on the biz and causing the costs of services to
increase.
roads,
Need tax money for that. AFAIK, every state in the continental US is
short of money due to the recession. Calif., for example, is paralyzed
and finally beginning mass government layoffs.
> houses,
Need disposable income. The US housing market has crashed. Housing
starts are at their lowest since records have been kept.
infrastructure,
See my comment about states and taxes.
the net, ebay, entertainment,
> sports, food service, retail operations, etc etc etc.
See my comment about disposable income.
>
>> Don't need as many accountants when there are no factories.
>
> Mindlessly silly. Accountants do a hell of a lot more
> than just factorys in modern first world countrys.
Like what? Tracking investments? Won't be so many of those without
folks earning good pay.
>
>> Don't need so many IT types for the same reason.
>
> Mindlessly silly. IT types do a hell of a lot more
> than just factorys in modern first world countrys.
See above about accountants.
>
>> Engineers are having a hell of a bad time finding work these days.
>
> Pig ignorant lie. In spades now that Obummer is spending so much in infrastructure rebuilding.
Baroque Obummer has yet to spend a dime. And engineers are out of work.
I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight
years.
>
>> Even technical work, such as design, analysis, and programming is offshored these days.
>
> Some of it is, plenty of it isnt.
>
>> Unemployment continues to rise in a linear fashion
>
> Pig ignorant lie.
Maybe you should go look up the official US stats, Pigboy.
>
>> and is now higher than it has been in decades.
>
> Thats what recessions do.
Make up your mind.
>
>> I pity those who muddled thru high school and thought the world owed them a living; there are only so many burger
>> flipper jobs.
>
> There's a hell of a lot more than just burger flipping and factory work in any modern first world economy.
Like what, when there are only the poor and the rich, and no middle class?
>
>> Maybe we could all get degrees in finance and teach each other about investments...
>
> Makes a hell of a lot more sense to get qualified in medicine instead.
So you could watch your patients get their medicines from China, their
x-rays analyzed by India, and their surgeries done in Thailand?
You really are just a hooting baboon, aren't you, Rod the Slow?
Rod Speed
>>>> Naively simplistic, actually.
>>> Such as what?
Fuck all of them are, actually.
> Little things like the reading of x-rays, expensive surgeries,
Fuck all except cosmetic surgery has been offshored.
> and so on. All the while the fedgov keeps dumping new regulations on the biz and causing the costs of services to
> increase.
Like the that or lump it.
> roads,
> Need tax money for that.
Just got tax money for that.
> AFAIK, every state in the continental US is short of money due to the recession.
Which might just be why Obummer just organised the feds to pay for that.
> Calif., for example, is paralyzed
Pigs arse it is.
> and finally beginning mass government layoffs.
Another bare faced lie.
>> houses,
> Need disposable income.
With a 7% unemployment rate, hordes have that.
> The US housing market has crashed.
Wont be that way forever.
> Housing starts are at their lowest since records have been kept.
Wont be that way forever.
> infrastructure,
> See my comment about states and taxes.
See mine about what the feds are going to do.
>> the net, ebay, entertainment, sports, food service, retail operations, etc etc etc.
> See my comment about disposable income.
See mine about the 93% employed.
>>> Don't need as many accountants when there are no factories.
>> Mindlessly silly. Accountants do a hell of a lot more
>> than just factorys in modern first world countrys.
> Like what?
Everything else business wise and most personal tax as well.
> Tracking investments?
A trivial part of what they do.
> Won't be so many of those without folks earning good pay.
93% still do.
>>> Don't need so many IT types for the same reason.
>> Mindlessly silly. IT types do a hell of a lot more
>> than just factorys in modern first world countrys.
> See above about accountants.
See above about your shit.
>>> Engineers are having a hell of a bad time finding work these days.
>> Pig ignorant lie. In spades now that Obummer is spending so much in infrastructure rebuilding.
> Baroque Obummer has yet to spend a dime.
It takes time to do that.
> And engineers are out of work.
Plenty will get work spending that money.
> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight years.
He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.
>>> Even technical work, such as design, analysis, and programming is offshored these days.
>> Some of it is, plenty of it isnt.
>>> Unemployment continues to rise in a linear fashion
>> Pig ignorant lie.
> Maybe you should go look up the official US stats
They say nothing about that being linear, fuckwit.
>>> and is now higher than it has been in decades.
>> Thats what recessions do.
> Make up your mind.
No change of mind, fuckwit.
>>> I pity those who muddled thru high school and thought the world
>>> owed them a living; there are only so many burger flipper jobs.
>> There's a hell of a lot more than just burger flipping and factory work in any modern first world economy.
> Like what, when there are only the poor and the rich, and no middle class?
You wouldnt know what the middle class was if one of them bit you on your lard arse.
>>> Maybe we could all get degrees in finance and teach each other about investments...
>> Makes a hell of a lot more sense to get qualified in medicine instead.
> So you could watch your patients get their medicines from China,
Fuck all of them are that stupid.
> their x-rays analyzed by India, and their surgeries done in Thailand?
Fuck all get other than cosmetic surgery done in Thailand.
<reams of your puerile shit any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed where it belongs>
m...@privacy.net
> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight
>years.
what is he doing now?
m...@privacy.net
>> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight years.
>
>He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.
Like what KIND of engineering?
serious question
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps needing decent
infrastructure and a water supply, sewage treatment, roads, bridges etc etc etc.
> serious question
Saggy
> m...@privacy.net wrote
>
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
Engineering ain't like sales .... switching from shoes to slacks in
the sales department ...... engineers can't 'switch' .....
I'm also a relatively unemployed engineer ..... I've sent out
beaucoup resumes ..... some for positions doing obscure highly
technical work that I am a stone cold expert in and very few others
are ..... and gotten almost no (2) interviews ...(note: I doctor the
resume to hide the age factor) ... hahaha ... and the managers
interviewing me though I was incompetent even while staring a resume
as long as their arm .........
I did check out the labor stats and according to them engineering is
still relatively hot.... (except for older engineers who have had
it) ............... but I don't buy it ..... it's a totally different
ball game then 20 years ago ....... I'd say anyone should avoid the
field altogether ..... check the engineering schools ...(well, at
least mine)......... all oriental ..... hahaha ....
m...@privacy.net
>> Like what KIND of engineering?
>
>Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps needing decent
>infrastructure and a water supply, sewage treatment, roads, bridges etc etc etc.
Yeah I've thought civil still might be good
Scout
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:708l16F...@mid.individual.net...
Hate to tel you but CE's are fnding that work is drying up. Companies are
doing a whole lot of new buildings or expansions. Governments have cut way
back on all sorts of infrastructure projects. Money is tight and these
projects simply aren't being done as much.
>> serious question
>
>
Scout
<m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:qmeup41ts29b3thti...@4ax.com...
It's not. Government jobs are currently WAY down, and commercial projects
are either on hold or downsized.
Now the Spend-Tons-of-Money-and-hope-it-helps Bill has been passed some of
the government projects may turn around but I doubt it will reach the level
it was just 5 years ago.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> m...@privacy.net wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight years.
>>>> He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.
>>> Like what KIND of engineering?
>> Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps needing decent
>> infrastructure and a water supply, sewage treatment, roads, bridges etc etc etc.
>>> serious question
> Engineering ain't like sales .... switching from shoes to
> slacks in the sales department ...... engineers can't 'switch' .....
Corse they can, its just harder to switch.
And I said that he should have chosen the type of engineering that
cant be offshored when getting qualified in the first place anyway.
> I'm also a relatively unemployed engineer ..... I've sent out
> beaucoup resumes ..... some for positions doing obscure
> highly technical work that I am a stone cold expert in and
> very few others are ..... and gotten almost no (2) interviews ...
That obviously depends on the particular engineering field you're qualified in.
> (note: I doctor the resume to hide the age factor) ... hahaha ...
That may be more obvious than you believe.
> and the managers interviewing me though I was incompetent
> even while staring a resume as long as their arm .........
There will always be some who dont interview well.
Doesnt matter so much in a field where there isnt a big surplus of qualified applicants.
> I did check out the labor stats and according to them engineering
> is still relatively hot.... (except for older engineers who have had it)
> ............... but I don't buy it .....
I do, because a mate of mine is a qualified civil engineer and has no trouble getting jobs.
In fact he attempted to retire, essentially because he didnt like the
detail of how the state was changing how they did their water supply
engineering and they were so desperate for qualified engineers that
he ended up working for them as a consultant after he had resigned.
He's been doing it for long enough that he can afford to
retire any time he likes and he doesnt need to work anymore.
> it's a totally different ball game then 20 years ago .......
> I'd say anyone should avoid the field altogether .....
More fool you. There is still plenty of work for civils and those jobs
cant be outsourced to anything like the extent that EEs can be.
> check the engineering schools ...(well, at least mine)......... all oriental ..... hahaha ....
Sure, some engineering didnt have much future when much of the low end
manufacturing moved offshore. It should have been obvious that that was coming.
You're never going to see it all offshored tho, most obviously with the military.
It isnt even all that likely that the US will give up on having a decent military system any time soon either.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
I know it is, a mate of mine still works in that area.
He attempted to retire, basically because he didnt like the bureacracy much
and what the state decided to do with water supply thats his field and ended
up having to work for them as a consultant because he was so hard to replace.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> m...@privacy.net wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight years.
>>>> He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.
>>> Like what KIND of engineering?
>> Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps needing
>> decent infrastructure and a water supply, sewage treatment, roads,
>> bridges etc etc etc.
> Hate to tel you but CE's are fnding that work is drying up.
It cant dry up, everyone still needs their water,
sewage disposed of, bridges built etc etc etc.
> Companies are doing a whole lot of new buildings or expansions.
Sure, but they still need the CEs to do that.
> Governments have cut way back on all sorts of infrastructure projects.
They cant ever cut back to zero.
> Money is tight and these projects simply aren't being done as much.
Thats just changed with Obummer spending heaps on that stuff.
Even the alternative energy stuff has got to boom with all that money being spent on it.
>>> serious question
m...@privacy.net
> check the engineering schools ...(well, at
>least mine)......... all oriental ..... hahaha ....
what was your school?
m...@privacy.net
>> it's a totally different ball game then 20 years ago .......
>> I'd say anyone should avoid the field altogether .....
>
>More fool you. There is still plenty of work for civils and those jobs
>cant be outsourced to anything like the extent that EEs can be.
what abt nuclear engineering in the USA?
Saggy
Saggy
I've seen that happen often, and hoped like hell it would happen to
me. I was always riding the wrong pony. Don't mean a thing in the
overall scheme of things. As it appears to me .... 20 yrs ago they
wanted warm bodies .... and you were given a project to do and away
you went ...... now, every job has a list of requirements as long as
your arm ...... and you're an infinitesimal replaceable cog in a huge
bureaucracy. That is, it used to be fun .....now you couldn't pay
me .....
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
More risky, essentially because its hard to say how long it will
take before the US gets a clue and starts building nukes again.
It'd be fine in France or Japan.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> m...@privacy.net wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Like what KIND of engineering?
>>>> Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps
>>>> needing decent infrastructure and a water supply, sewage
>>>> treatment, roads, bridges etc etc etc.
>>> Yeah I've thought civil still might be good
>> I know it is, a mate of mine still works in that area.
>> He attempted to retire, basically because he didnt like the
>> bureaucracy much and what the state decided to do with
>> water supply thats his field and ended up having to work for
>> them as a consultant because he was so hard to replace.
> I've seen that happen often, and hoped like hell it would
> happen to me. I was always riding the wrong pony.
Yeah, most stick to what interests them most and dont really consider which
part of engineering has the best future. I did that myself, and so did he.
> Don't mean a thing in the overall scheme of things. As it appears to me ....
> 20 yrs ago they wanted warm bodies .... and you were given a project
> to do and away you went ...... now, every job has a list of requirements
> as long as your arm ...... and you're an infinitesimal replaceable cog in a
> huge bureaucracy. That is, it used to be fun .....now you couldn't pay me .....
I did it the other way, worked out how to drive an aircraft
carrier thru the bureaucracy and carried on regardless.
Much harder to do that in some fields like his tho, in fact impossible in his case.
I was always in the fortunate position that I was always paid very well to do
what I would have been quite happy to do for free, and it was always possible
to drive an aircraft carrier thru the bureaucracy if you knew what you were doing.
No regrets, I wouldnt change anything much at all if I had to do it over again.
Didnt even need the money, I've been involved in investments
since highschool and ended up rolling in it from that alone.
Also did other stuff like building my own house from scratch too, designed and
built entirely by me with a few of the very high risk stuff done by a contractor like
actually pouring the concrete slab, after I did all the formwork and reinforcing etc.
Even had the hilarious situation where the local building authority told the professional
builders to have a look at mine, because that was how it was supposed to be done.
Scout
> Scout wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> m...@privacy.net wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>>>>> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight
>>>>>> years.
>
>>>>> He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.
>
>>>> Like what KIND of engineering?
>
>>> Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps needing
>>> decent infrastructure and a water supply, sewage treatment, roads,
>>> bridges etc etc etc.
>
>> Hate to tel you but CE's are fnding that work is drying up.
>
> It cant dry up, everyone still needs their water,
> sewage disposed of, bridges built etc etc etc.
True, but when you have more CE's than there are jobs, well, some people
aren't going to find work, and those already employed are going to tend to
be the ones who keep the jobs.
>> Companies are doing a whole lot of new buildings or expansions.
>
> Sure, but they still need the CEs to do that.
But not as many. Not nearly as many as already exist.
>> Governments have cut way back on all sorts of infrastructure projects.
>
> They cant ever cut back to zero.
never said they would. However, the market for EE's isn't ever going to be
cut back to zero either, but a lot of them are finding work hard to obtain.
>> Money is tight and these projects simply aren't being done as much.
>
> Thats just changed with Obummer spending heaps on that stuff.
That assumes that those funds will actually reach us in volumns and rates
necessary to do much good.
> Even the alternative energy stuff has got to boom with all that money
> being spent on it.
Only in a very minor sense. The designs are used for long periods of time
with little or no modifications. Fabrication, Construction and erection are
routine. Not a whole lot of need for engineers in there once the initial
designs are produced and the construction process starts. Sure, there will
be a boost at the start, assuming we don't simply copy someone else's
existing designs. However, once that part of the project is done, it takes
very few engineers to keep it going.
Scout
Actually we recently gave final approval for some 8 additional reactors.
However, with the economy, the funds needed to construct may be less readily
available.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> m...@privacy.net wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> it's a totally different ball game then 20 years ago .......
>>>>> I'd say anyone should avoid the field altogether .....
>>>> More fool you. There is still plenty of work for civils and those jobs cant be outsourced to anything like the
>>>> extent that EEs can be.
>>> what abt nuclear engineering in the USA?
>> More risky, essentially because its hard to say how long it will
>> take before the US gets a clue and starts building nukes again.
> Actually we recently gave final approval for some 8 additional reactors.
Sure, but it remains to be seen what the effect of the entire
world economy tanking very spectacularly will have on that now.
> However, with the economy, the funds needed to construct may be less readily available.
No maybe about it.
And I can't see Obummer being that keen on spending taxpayers money on nukes
give the party he comes from, he's much more likely to be stupid enough to prefer
'alternative' energy instead, even tho that makes absolutely no sense at all.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Scout wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> m...@privacy.net wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight years.
>>>>>> He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.
>>>>> Like what KIND of engineering?
>>>> Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps needing
>>>> decent infrastructure and a water supply, sewage treatment, roads,
>>>> bridges etc etc etc.
>>> Hate to tel you but CE's are fnding that work is drying up.
>> It cant dry up, everyone still needs their water,
>> sewage disposed of, bridges built etc etc etc.
> True, but when you have more CE's than there are jobs,
You dont, particularly not that Obummer has got
Congress to spend heaps on infrastructure projects.
> well, some people aren't going to find work,
Sure, there will always be some who are unemployable in any field.
> and those already employed are going to tend to be the ones who keep the jobs.
Sure, but its still one engineering field that has much better prospects
than some others, essentially because very little of that can be offshored.
The original question was which part of engineering I would recommend to
someone aged 22 today. I'd still recommend civil over most other engineering.
My main qualification would be that if you detest bureaucracy
passionately, then civil may well not be an ideal field for you.
>>> Companies are doing a whole lot of new buildings or expansions.
>> Sure, but they still need the CEs to do that.
> But not as many. Not nearly as many as already exist.
I dont believe that.
>>> Governments have cut way back on all sorts of infrastructure projects.
>> They cant ever cut back to zero.
> never said they would. However, the market for EE's isn't ever going to be cut back to zero either, but a lot of them
> are finding work hard to obtain.
Yes, because its much easier to offshore that work,
particularly with the cheaper consumer products.
While the US does still completely dominate military engineering, it doesnt
with heavy aircraft particularly anymore, not even aerospace anymore.
>>> Money is tight and these projects simply aren't being done as much.
>> Thats just changed with Obummer spending heaps on that stuff.
> That assumes that those funds will actually reach us in volumns and rates necessary to do much good.
Corse it will. The only thing that might concievably stop that is if china etc
gives up on funding the US deficit and the money cant be raised to do it.
>> Even the alternative energy stuff has got to boom with all that money being spent on it.
> Only in a very minor sense.
Sure, its a small part of total engineering employment.
> The designs are used for long periods of time with little or no modifications.
You still need engineers involved.
> Fabrication, Construction and erection are routine.
Yes.
> Not a whole lot of need for engineers in there once the initial designs are produced and the construction process
> starts.
Depends on the detail of the alternative energy being encouraged.
If Congress is actually stupid enough to encourage the use of
alternative energy in individual houses instead of major alternative
engineering projects, that will still provide a lot of work for engineers.
In spades if Congress is actually stupid enough to encourage subsidys for
small scale individual alternative electricity generation like Germany has.
I doubt Congress will be that stupid personally, largely because the Germans
do that because of their stupid proportional representation system that gives
their Greens a hell of a lot of political power that you just dont see in the US.
> Sure, there will be a boost at the start, assuming we don't simply copy someone else's existing designs.
The US has hardly ever gone that route for various reasons.
> However, once that part of the project is done, it takes very few engineers to keep it going.
Thats just plain wrong with hi tech projects.
And even with small scale house based alternative energy, there will be a
continuing need for engineers to modify the designs as technology keeps improving
given that the much higher cost is the achilles heel of an alternative energy system.
Corse that might end up being offshored, remains to be seen.
residualse...@gmail.com
> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote
>
> If many of those migrant workers werent being paid at all,
> you would not have seen tens of millions of them moving
> from the rural countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
Migrant factory workers inside China are ofte paided very little
They've migrated to work in the urban areas for work because
there are no jobs in the rural countryside. Because of the
extreme competitive forces - even during economic boom periods
many factories have shut down in the past decade or so -
run out of business by the competition. Often when I read
reports about factories shuting down or construction projects
going bellyup , the owners have ranaway without paying their
workers and suppliers. China's version of capitalism is
much more brutual than in the USA.
>
> > I've been reading reports on a fairly consistent basis
> > over the last ten years of of different incidents in China
> > where factory and construction workers are not paid for
> > several months (they are paid on a montly basis)
>
> That does NOT mean that they werent ever paid at all.
>
I never said that no Chinese factory workers do get paid,
most do get paid - but production worker salaries in China
is very low.
> > and where the employers/owners have
> > either runaway or declared bankruptcy.
>
> Sure, but while that certainly happens, it cant be happening
> to the bulk of those migrant workers or we woudnt have
> seen tens of millions of them moving from the rural
> countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
It seems that many of the owners/operators of
Chinese factories have anticipated the current
global economic meltdown - and have paid their
workers for workd done before laying them off
before the Lunar New Year..
>
> > During the economic boom these incidents did occur
> > because of poor management, weak labor protection
> > laws, and China's inadequate and primitive judicial system.
>
> Sure, but while that certainly happens, it cant be happening
> to the bulk of those migrant workers or we woudnt have
> seen tens of millions of them moving from the rural
> countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
>
Unpaid work has occurs often enough to cause persistant
systemic social unrest and protest over the last decade
in China - much ado has been made over the supression
of these protest over the last decade by the state. Despite
efforts to suppress reports about such incidents - they
seem to pop up in western media anyway. The Chinese
Judicial system just isn't adequate or powerful enough to
successfully handle the ups and downs of classical
capitalism.
> >>> Their economic condition cannot be improve by waving the
> >>> magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation.
> >> Correct.
> >>> The only financial mechanism that has been shown to improve the
> >>> economic opportunity of the poor has been micro-capitalization
> >>> (micro-loans) and small business incubator/development
> >>> programs (which were shown to work in Banglesdesh).
> >> Wrong. The other obvious approach is exports and those working
> >> in those factorys buying the goods that the factorys produce.
> >> And they all do that last.
> > I totally disagree with your assessment.
> > There is a high distribution and transaction cost to Import Export
>
> Wrong again. You can deal with them yourself any time using ebay.
False
Ebay and the similar auction sites in the USA and China
does not elimitate the high overhead that is inherited by
Import and Export. All goods end up costing more as an
export than if they were sold domestically. When an
import cost less than a domestically item - it is because
that exporting country has a production cost advantage
that is several times greater than the importing country.
While it might cost $36 to make a famous brand sneaker
in Taiwan - almost all the profit from selling that sneaker
$240 is made in the USA. However, since that $36
sneaker has a famous logo brand name on it - the
distribution and sale of that sneaker is strictly controlled
in the USA so that by the time that $36 sneaker entered
the USA it cost $180 wholesale on Ebay.
>
> > - which favors large firms over smaller firms.
>
> You still see plenty using ebay anyway
ebay is great. however, the bulk of USA GNP
is based on profits created by knowledge industrial
sector (e.g. medical services, legal servies) and
technologicaly monopolies (e.g. aerospace/aviation
manufacturers, telecommunications) which do not
lend themselves to ebay like transactions.
>
> > For example, while a factory in india could
> > make and sell pharmaceticals very cheaply
> > in the USA - they are banned for doing so.
>
> And no one bans most of what china exports.
Tautologically speaking,
one usually does not export things that are banned from being
exported.
However, when there is a product safety issue most countries
will ban certain imports from certain sources. For example, the
USDA may ban or quarantee certain items to prevent possible invasion
of foriegn pests (e.g. beetles, larves of flying insects, fungi).
India's Pharma industry has purchased
the rights to make many of USA Pharm products and
can make them at a much lower cost but such products
are banned from entering the USA ( often by contract).
For example, many of the *cocktails* used to keep
AIDS in check are made in India for a mere fraction of
the cost in the USA. I remember reading a report
which was addressing AIDS in Africa mentioning of
acquiring a cheaper version of the *cocktails* from
India.
>
> > Even when a factory in Canada could make and sell
> > a generic drug in the USA for very cheap - often a
> > larger firm will *buy out* (pay a annual stipend) to that
> > Canadian generic drug maker to NOT make a particular
> > generic drug - as to create a monopoly/exclusive market
> > for their existing name brand designer drug.
>
> Doesnt apply to the vast bulk of what china exports.
It is NOT the BULK of what is exported that
really counts BUT the VALUE of what what
is being exported that really counts. The above
situation has significant bearing on the most
valuable industrial sectors that are being imported
or exported.
>
> Thats as silly as claiming that just because heroin or
> cocaine trafficking is banned, that has any relevance
> what so ever to what china can export fine.
Irrelevant.
The argument is with regard to the banning of legal
and pharma/medical products not illegal drug trafficking.
>
> > In addition, dual use technology restrictions
> > limit many technologies from being
> > exported in the USA, e.g. advance GPS
> > equipment or encryption security programs.
> > One has to go through an array of regulatory
> > barriers to import or export a motor vehicle -
> > such initial cost is too high for most smaller firms.
>
> Pity about all the rest of china's exports where that doesnt apply.
Okay - maybe I should spell things out for you
since you can't put the pieces together yourself.
By restricting hi-value export to China - USA
has reduced its exports to China to mainly lo-value
items which making balanced trade problematic
to next to impossible. In addition, most of the
USA GNP is based on the production of this hi-value
technological monopolistic markets - thus by
banning the export of these items to China -
there isn't many things of hi value that China
can purchase with the US dollars they have.
>
> > The USA economy is not driven by free markets but by
> > technological/intellectual property based monopolies,
>
> Wrong again. The absolute vast bulk of the US economy
> is actually driven by services which arent even licensed.
False.
>
> > e.g. copyrighted images like "mickey mouse" and
> > patents for microprocessors to hybrid corn seeds.
>
> Thats a trivial part of the total US economy.
You are wrong.
>
> > In addition, another hi-profit part of the US economy
> > is based on government handouts/licenses/grants,
> > e.g. a radio frequency-bandwidth to make public
> > broadcast, rights to harvest trees from public
> > lands, rights to mine for minerals from public
> > lands, the right to graze cattle over public
> > lands, and/or to fish along the coast.
>
> Also a trivial part of the total US economy.
You are wrong again.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote
>>>>>> Mark M. wrote
>>>>>>> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote
>>>>>>>> wis...@yahoo.com wrote
>>>>>>>>> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....
>>>>>>>>> the debt... the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>>>>>>>>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity..
>>>>>>>>> the loss of US created wealth. Unless the US can rebuild
>>>>>>>>> its manufacturing capability it will be a long slide into a
>>>>>>>>> third world level of subsistence.
>>>>>>>> China's current economic tumble shows that even
>>>>>>>> a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
>>>>>>>> capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
>>>>>>>> an economy from a downturn -
>>>>>>> China could help itself by having Chinese workers
>>>>>>> consume more of what they produce.
>>>>>> I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth
>>>>>> disparity problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of
>>>>>> affording what they produce. And catching up with the present loss
>>>>>> of exports would require a big move toward domestic consumption.
>>>>>> http://lakeweb.com/money/Social%20Unrest%20in%20China.pdf-
>>>>> Unfortunately, many if not most of china's factory workers are
>>>>> migrant workers coming in from the rural countryside/inner provinces
>>>> Yes.
>>>>> and are paid very little if they are paid at all.
>>>> That last is a mindless pig ignorant lie. They wouldnt be coming
>>>> to the factorys if they werent being paid to work in them.
>>> Aggregate statistics never tell the whole story.
>> Never said anything about any aggregate statistics.
>> If many of those migrant workers werent being paid at all,
>> you would not have seen tens of millions of them moving
>> from the rural countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
> Migrant factory workers inside China are ofte paided very little
Thats only true in the sense of what they are paid back where they came from.
> They've migrated to work in the urban areas for work
> because there are no jobs in the rural countryside.
Thats just plain wrong. Most of them migrate because what
work there is is much better outside the rural countryside,
both in the pay and the basic working conditions as well.
In spades with subsistence agriculture.
> Because of the extreme competitive forces - even during
> economic boom periods many factories have shut down in
> the past decade or so - run out of business by the competition.
Yes, but thats an entirely separate matter to whether
they are paid or not before the operation goes bust.
> Often when I read reports about factories shuting down
> or construction projects going bellyup , the owners have
> ranaway without paying their workers and suppliers.
Yes, but that just how they do going broke, not how they
operate before they go broke or when they dont go broke.
> China's version of capitalism is much more brutual than in the USA.
It is indeed, but they certainly do get paid when they arent going broke.
>>> I've been reading reports on a fairly consistent basis
>>> over the last ten years of of different incidents in China
>>> where factory and construction workers are not paid for
>>> several months (they are paid on a montly basis)
>> That does NOT mean that they werent ever paid at all.
> I never said that no Chinese factory workers do get paid, most
> do get paid - but production worker salaries in China is very low.
Thats nothing like your original, which you carefully
deleted from the quoting and I have restored.
>>> and where the employers/owners have
>>> either runaway or declared bankruptcy.
>> Sure, but while that certainly happens, it cant be happening
>> to the bulk of those migrant workers or we woudnt have
>> seen tens of millions of them moving from the rural
>> countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
> It seems that many of the owners/operators of
> Chinese factories have anticipated the current
> global economic meltdown - and have paid their
> workers for workd done before laying them off
> before the Lunar New Year..
Sure, but thats again nothing like your original that I commented on.
>>> During the economic boom these incidents did occur
>>> because of poor management, weak labor protection
>>> laws, and China's inadequate and primitive judicial system.
>> Sure, but while that certainly happens, it cant be happening
>> to the bulk of those migrant workers or we woudnt have
>> seen tens of millions of them moving from the rural
>> countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
> Unpaid work has occurs often enough to cause persistant
> systemic social unrest and protest over the last decade
> in China - much ado has been made over the supression
> of these protest over the last decade by the state.
Thats a different effect entirely, the much more gung ho approach
to capitalism in china that sees lots of operations go broke.
> Despite efforts to suppress reports about such incidents
> - they seem to pop up in western media anyway. The Chinese
> Judicial system just isn't adequate or powerful enough to
> successfully handle the ups and downs of classical capitalism.
Sure, but again, thats nothing like your original that I commented on.
>>>>> Their economic condition cannot be improve by waving the
>>>>> magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation.
>>>>> Correct. The only financial mechanism that has been shown to
>>>>> improve the economic opportunity of the poor has been
>>>>> micro-capitalization (micro-loans) and small business incubator/
>>>>> development programs (which were shown to work in Banglesdesh).
>>>> Wrong. The other obvious approach is exports and those working
>>>> in those factorys buying the goods that the factorys produce.
>>>> And they all do that last.
>>> I totally disagree with your assessment.
>>> There is a high distribution and transaction cost to Import Export
>> Wrong again. You can deal with them yourself any time using ebay.
> False
Nope. I do it all the time.
> Ebay and the similar auction sites in the USA and China
> does not elimitate the high overhead that is inherited by
> Import and Export.
Wrong. There is no overhead involved in posting stuff to the buyer.
> All goods end up costing more as an
> export than if they were sold domestically.
Yes, but most of the goods exported cant be sold domestically
in china, because most of the chinese dont have the standard
of living to be able to afford to buy them.
> When an import cost less than a domestically item - it is
> because that exporting country has a production cost advantage
> that is several times greater than the importing country.
Doesnt have to be several times greater, most of the stuff I
import is just the best value compared with the domestic item.
In fact I buy almost all stuff using the net and I dont care whether
its sent to me within the country or from outside the country instead.
> While it might cost $36 to make a famous brand
> sneaker in Taiwan - almost all the profit from
> selling that sneaker $240 is made in the USA.
Most arent stupid enough to buy much with that sort of margin.
> However, since that $36 sneaker has a famous logo brand
> name on it - the distribution and sale of that sneaker is strictly
> controlled in the USA so that by the time that $36 sneaker
> entered the USA it cost $180 wholesale on Ebay.
I dont buy famous logo shit at all. So I dont buy anything with that sort of stupid price on ebay.
>>> - which favors large firms over smaller firms.
>> You still see plenty using ebay anyway
> ebay is great. however, the bulk of USA GNP
> is based on profits created by knowledge industrial
> sector (e.g. medical services, legal servies) and
> technologicaly monopolies (e.g. aerospace/aviation
> manufacturers, telecommunications) which do not
> lend themselves to ebay like transactions.
Thats just plain wrong. Huge swathes of the USA GNP
is for very basic stuff like food, what you use to clean
the house with, etc etc etc
>>> For example, while a factory in india could
>>> make and sell pharmaceticals very cheaply
>>> in the USA - they are banned for doing so.
>> And no one bans most of what china exports.
> Tautologically speaking, one usually does not export
> things that are banned from being exported.
You'll end up completely blind if you dont watch out.
> However, when there is a product safety issue most
> countries will ban certain imports from certain sources.
That doesnt in fact happen much.
> For example, the USDA may ban or quarantee certain items to prevent
> possible invasion of foriegn pests (e.g. beetles, larves of flying insects, fungi).
Thats not product safety, thats a different type of ban entirely.
> India's Pharma industry has purchased the
> rights to make many of USA Pharm products
Fuck all of the ones that matter, actually.
> and can make them at a much lower cost but such products
> are banned from entering the USA ( often by contract).
Mostly it isnt done by contract.
> For example, many of the *cocktails* used to keep
> AIDS in check are made in India for a mere fraction
> of the cost in the USA. I remember reading a report
> which was addressing AIDS in Africa mentioning of
> acquiring a cheaper version of the *cocktails* from India.
Thats nothing like what happens with most pharmaceuticals.
>>> Even when a factory in Canada could make and sell
>>> a generic drug in the USA for very cheap - often a
>>> larger firm will *buy out* (pay a annual stipend) to that
>>> Canadian generic drug maker to NOT make a particular
>>> generic drug - as to create a monopoly/exclusive market
>>> for their existing name brand designer drug.
>> Doesnt apply to the vast bulk of what china exports.
>
> It is NOT the BULK of what is exported that
> really counts BUT the VALUE of what what
> is being exported that really counts.
Doesnt apply to the vast bulk of the value of what china exports.
> The above situation has significant bearing on the most
> valuable industrial sectors that are being imported or exported.
Nope, its only a trivial part of what china exports.
>> Thats as silly as claiming that just because heroin or
>> cocaine trafficking is banned, that has any relevance
>> what so ever to what china can export fine.
> Irrelevant.
Nope.
> The argument is with regard to the banning of legal
> and pharma/medical products not illegal drug trafficking.
I said your claim was as silly as that other one, not that they are the same thing.
>>> In addition, dual use technology restrictions
>>> limit many technologies from being
>>> exported in the USA, e.g. advance GPS
>>> equipment or encryption security programs.
>>> One has to go through an array of regulatory
>>> barriers to import or export a motor vehicle -
>>> such initial cost is too high for most smaller firms.
>> Pity about all the rest of china's exports where that doesnt apply.
> Okay - maybe I should spell things out for you
> since you can't put the pieces together yourself.
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
> By restricting hi-value export to China
No it hasnt except with military hardware, very little of which china
would buy anyway since it can get the russian stuff much cheaper.
> - USA has reduced its exports to China to mainly lo-value items
Utterly mangled all over again. Try aircraft for starters.
> which making balanced trade problematic to next to impossible.
That happens for completely different reasons. There is fuck
all that the US would like to export that china needs to import.
There is fuck all that china would like to export that isnt
significantly cheaper than the same thing made in the US.
THATS the reason for the trade imbalance.
Some other countrys like Australia have managed to end up
with a positive balance of trade in its favor with both Japan
and China because it does export what both those countrys
need in huge quantitys, most obviously with iron ore, coal,
natural gas and various other minerals etc.
> In addition, most of the USA GNP is based on the
> production of this hi-value technological monopolistic markets
Utterly mangled all over again. Look at agriculture for starters.
> - thus by banning the export of these items to
> China - there isn't many things of hi value that
> China can purchase with the US dollars they have.
Utterly mangled all over again. Very little is export
banned, just military hardware, and china would buy
very little of that even if it wasnt banned, just because
the russian stuff is much cheaper.
>>> The USA economy is not driven by free markets but by
>>> technological/intellectual property based monopolies,
>> Wrong again. The absolute vast bulk of the US economy
>> is actually driven by services which arent even licensed.
> False.
Nope.
>>> e.g. copyrighted images like "mickey mouse" and
>>> patents for microprocessors to hybrid corn seeds.
>> Thats a trivial part of the total US economy.
> You are wrong.
Nope.
>>> In addition, another hi-profit part of the US economy
>>> is based on government handouts/licenses/grants,
>>> e.g. a radio frequency-bandwidth to make public
>>> broadcast, rights to harvest trees from public
>>> lands, rights to mine for minerals from public
>>> lands, the right to graze cattle over public
>>> lands, and/or to fish along the coast.
>> Also a trivial part of the total US economy.
> You are wrong again.
Nope.
Have a look at the official stats sometime. And then reach for a VERY large towel for your face.
Scout
No taxpayer money involved. All 100% utility money.
Rod Speed
>> No maybe about it.
We'll see now that the entire world economy has tanked very spectacularly indeed.
And while money isnt always provided by govt for nukes, they do generally
provide other stuff thats even more important, like indemnitys etc.
Mark-T
> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> loss of US created wealth.
Has the american working man suddenly
devolved into retardation?
> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
> Generating paper has never saved a country from its expoitators.
I regularly tithe, for benefit of the starving
masses in Switzerland.
> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> powerhouse again
Indeed, let's return to the standard of living displayed
in "Leave it to Beaver"
> This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
Immigration destroyed this country. History
shows that clearly.
Mark
Bama Brian
Apparently, Rod, old hooting baboon, you don't know that in order to
switch engineering specialties it takes from two to three years of
full-time school to pick up that new accreditation.
Married men with families typically don't have the resources to go back
to school full-time. Trying to pick up the new specialty at night
school while working a full-time job takes about ten years. And the
on-line schools are hideously expensive; classes here are primarily
financed by employers.
--
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
Bama Brian
> Bama Brian <brianNOSP...@att.net> wrote:
>
>> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight
>> years.
>
He got lucky; he's working as an electronics tech. Still, it's a 60%
cut in pay.
Bama Brian
Damn good school. Insane city environment.
Rod Speed
>>>>> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight years.
>>>> He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.
>>> Like what KIND of engineering?
>> Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps needing
>> decent infrastructure and a water supply, sewage treatment, roads,
>> bridges etc etc etc.
>>> serious question
> Apparently, Rod, old hooting baboon, you don't know that in order to switch engineering specialties it takes from two
> to three years of full-time school to pick up that new accreditation.
Or you are so stupid that you cant manage to grasp
that I was saying that he should have got qualified in
an engineering field with some future in the first place.
> Married men with families typically don't have the resources to go back to school full-time.
Pig ignorant lie, most obviously when the wife is in a well paid job.
And how is whining about no one being prepared to offer you a job any better anyway ?
> Trying to pick up the new specialty at night school while working a full-time job takes about ten years.
Thats a lie.
> And the on-line schools are hideously expensive; classes here are primarily financed by employers.
All the more reason to choose a specialty with a future properly in the first place.
Rod Speed
Immigration produced the country. History shows that clearly.
Vic Smith
<brianNOSP...@att.net> wrote:
>Rod Speed wrote:
>> m...@privacy.net wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>
>>>>> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight years.
>>
>>>> He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.
>>
>>> Like what KIND of engineering?
>>
>> Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps needing decent
>> infrastructure and a water supply, sewage treatment, roads, bridges etc etc etc.
>>
>>> serious question
>
>Apparently, Rod, old hooting baboon, you don't know that in order to
>switch engineering specialties it takes from two to three years of
>full-time school to pick up that new accreditation.
>
Not much worth arguing with Rod.
He's one those globalists who think the economic model that just fell
apart is still viable.
He'll just say "Ain't gonna happen. You wait."
Then it happens despite him.
His biggest mistake is thinking every "unskilled" worker in trouble
financially is a monkey. The "monkeys" are taking over the zoo.
Too bad about that fly in the ointment called "Democracy."
There are fantasy bubbles bursting into the world of reality all over
the place.
The real estate fantasy bubble that inflated folks' "net worth."
Rod used to talk about that "value" all the time to show how the U.S.
was "wealthy."
The stock market fantasy bubble that inflated folks' "net worth."
Rod used to talk about that "value" all the time to show how the U.S.
was "wealthy."
The bullshit "low unemployment" fantasy bubble that hid the cancer of
an economy getting deeper and deeper into debt to low-wage foreigners.
Rod has used some globalist scammer international organization's
figures to tout the "low unemployment" here.
Those were as real as the 14000 DJI and the $800k 2-bedroom bungalow.
All these bubbles were brought to us by the greed and corruption of
scammers who think like Rod that scamming "the monkeys" is a decent
path of life.
Their world is falling apart.
The thread title is true.
But the scammers are still pretty strong. Look at the uproar about
the "buy America" provision of the stimulus package.
Despite Obama not being a Wall Street scammer, he's still has to
overcome being a yuppie.
I don't think he gets it yet.
You can't support the job needs of the U.S. making windmills and solar
panels.
We need to make the bulk of our consumer goods.
Autos.
Washing machines and dryers.
Tools.
Televisions.
Phones.
etc, etc.
Whatever it takes to balance trade.
The non-energy trade deficit is about $350 BILLION A YEAR.
Lots of "monkeys" here in the U.S. who need productive work.
That scares the bejesus out of the scammers like Rod.
--Vic
Rod Speed
> Bama Brian <brianNOSP...@att.net> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> m...@privacy.net wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight years.
>>>>> He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.
>>>> Like what KIND of engineering?
>>> Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps needing
>>> decent infrastructure and a water supply, sewage treatment, roads,
>>> bridges etc etc etc.
>>>> serious question
>> Apparently, Rod, old hooting baboon, you don't know that in order to
>> switch engineering specialties it takes from two to three years of
>> full-time school to pick up that new accreditation.
> Not much worth arguing with Rod.
Yep, you keep getting done like a fucking dinner, time after time after time.
> He's one those globalists who think the economic model that just fell apart is still viable.
Corse it is, you watch. Mindless protectionism was proven to not work in the great depression.
> He'll just say "Ain't gonna happen. You wait."
> Then it happens despite him.
You're lying, as always.
> His biggest mistake is thinking every "unskilled" worker in trouble
> financially is a monkey. The "monkeys" are taking over the zoo.
Like hell they are. The most they ever did was get some stupid lawyer Prez.
So stupid that they cant even manage to grasp that appointing slick's
retreads is nothing even remotely resembling anything like change.
The fuckwit even appointed slick's fuckwit wife.
> Too bad about that fly in the ointment called "Democracy."
Its irrelevant, Obummer hasnt come up with a damned thing any different to the ex chief ape.
> There are fantasy bubbles bursting into the world of reality all over the place.
> The real estate fantasy bubble that inflated folks' "net worth."
> Rod used to talk about that "value" all the time to show how the U.S. was "wealthy."
> The stock market fantasy bubble that inflated folks' "net worth."
> Rod used to talk about that "value" all the time to show how the U.S. was "wealthy."
Still is. Try India or Ethiopia sometime to see how the non wealthy 'live'
> The bullshit "low unemployment" fantasy bubble that hid the cancer of
> an economy getting deeper and deeper into debt to low-wage foreigners.
You're lying, as always.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t12.htm
> Rod has used some globalist scammer international
> organization's figures to tout the "low unemployment" here.
You're lying, as always. The govt's, actually.
> Those were as real as the 14000 DJI and the $800k 2-bedroom bungalow.
You're lying, as always.
> All these bubbles were brought to us by the greed and corruption of scammers
> who think like Rod that scamming "the monkeys" is a decent path of life.
Nope, by the stupid US system that didnt adequately control sub prime lending.
> Their world is falling apart.
Nope, the world of unemployable fools like you is, actually.
> The thread title is true.
Nope, and 'industrial restoration' isnt even possible now, you watch.
> But the scammers are still pretty strong. Look at the uproar
> about the "buy America" provision of the stimulus package.
> Despite Obama not being a Wall Street scammer,
> he's still has to overcome being a yuppie.
Not even possible, you watch.
> I don't think he gets it yet.
You certainly dont.
> You can't support the job needs of the U.S. making windmills and solar panels.
Indeed.
> We need to make the bulk of our consumer goods.
Nope. The US managed an unemployment rate that bottomed at
4.x% with an immense legal and illegal immigration rate, with the
highest participation rate the US has ever seen without that.
> Autos.
> Washing machines and dryers.
> Tools.
> Televisions.
> Phones.
> etc, etc.
> Whatever it takes to balance trade.
Taint gunna happen, you watch.
> The non-energy trade deficit is about $350 BILLION A YEAR.
> Lots of "monkeys" here in the U.S. who need productive work.
> That scares the bejesus out of the scammers like Rod.
Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed ape fantasys.
zzbu...@netscape.net
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 07:24:49 -0600, John A. Weeks III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <mh18p41mdshngs44ptbhnfq1rtq4iqs...@4ax.com>,
> > wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the loss
> >> of US created wealth.
>
> > time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months. There is no
> > issue with productivity.
>
> >> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> >> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
> > manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now an issue
> > right now.
>
> Really? What, exactly? The US has perhaps 1% of the world ship-building
> market, and we're down to 40% of the commercial airplane market.
Well, the reason for that is simple. Since 99% of the world shipping
market depends on China and India's Oil Production.
And the people who take energy production, science, medicine,
and engineering as more than just a running Exxon gag line work on
Solar Energy, Wind Energy, Pv Cells, Biodiesel, Autonomous
Vehicles,
robotics, Fiber Optics, Optical Computers, Microcomputers, RISC,
Parellel Processors, lasers, masers, Holograms, Holographic Memory,
GPS, Drones, neo-Batteies, post jerk screwdrivers, On-Line Banking,
and On-Line Publishing.
> Automobiles - well, let's not go there. But even most of the parts in
> autos assembled here in the US are from off-shore sources.
>
> TV's and radios? Nope, not a one built in the US. Cameras? Nope.
> Computers? Nope. Computer chips? Nope. Clothes? Maybe a few, but
> most are made in China. Furniture? Only the really high end stuff. Even
> half of our food is imported.
>
> So how is it that the US is in good shape, manufacturing-wise, John?
> Aren't you aware that the fedgov counts goods manufactured offshore and
> sold through American distributors as "American manufactured"? Take the
> iPod, for example. Ninety percent of the cost of the gadget is earned
> offshore by various manufacturers. Apple only gets about ten percent of
> the money by selling it in the US. But the fedgov counts all of that
> money as "American manufactured".
>
> Here's the picture. The Chinese finance our government's debt by buying
> securities. The government passes out the money to multitudes of special
> interests. The recipients of the cash then buy Chinese goods, or other
> off-shored goods. In the meantime, the Chinese rake off the interest
> from the securities, and use the interest and the money we send back to
> them to finance their ultra-modern cities and factories.
>
> >> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> >> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> >> powerhouse again
>
> > That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand and hope it goes
> > away theory. Good luck with that.
>
> The only way it's going to end is when the US workers' pay is on parity
> with the lowest pay scales in the world, John. Maybe - and it's a big
> maybe - that's when the manufacturing might come back to the US.
>
> Even the so-called "information economy" has become a bust, what with
> information being able to travel electrically at the speed of light. For
> example, some Indian companies have set up to read American X-rays with
> Indian doctors.
>
> Some Indian companies have set up to provide legal services to Americans.
>
> Then there's the off-shore surgery market, where for a fraction of the
> American cost of surgery, a patient can go off-shore, get his surgery
> done, get a reasonable hospital recovery stay, and get a vacation.
>
> The future really doesn't look pretty for the US, John. Especially since
> the new President wants to throw a trillion dollars at the problem, when
> it was the government's pissing away taxpayer dollars that caused the
> problem.
>
> --
> "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
> George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
>
> Cheers,
> Bama Brian
> Libertarian- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bama Brian
> Bama Brian wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> m...@privacy.net wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>>>>> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight years.
>
>>>>> He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.
>
>>>> Like what KIND of engineering?
>
>>> Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps needing
>>> decent infrastructure and a water supply, sewage treatment, roads,
>>> bridges etc etc etc.
>
>>>> serious question
>
>> Apparently, Rod, old hooting baboon, you don't know that in order to switch engineering specialties it takes from two
>> to three years of full-time school to pick up that new accreditation.
>
> Or you are so stupid that you cant manage to grasp
> that I was saying that he should have got qualified in
> an engineering field with some future in the first place.
Oh, I got that, Rod, old hooting baboon. But the events of the last
twenty years are being viewed by those eyeballs you have implanted in
your buttocks, with 20-20 hindsight. It is extremely arrogant of you to
imply that young men should have the ability to foretell the future.
Reality is that you worked for a government. Guess what, Hoot? If we
all work for a government, nothing will ever get done. Governments
don't create anything except government employees. And they have to tax
wage earners to pay bureaucratic salaries.
>
>> Married men with families typically don't have the resources to go back to school full-time.
>
> Pig ignorant lie, most obviously when the wife is in a well paid job.
Most men do not have such. Especially older men, whose wives were
taught when they were young that being a nurse or schoolteacher was all
they could hope for.
>
> And how is whining about no one being prepared to offer you a job any better anyway ?
Syntax, Rod, syntax.
>
>> Trying to pick up the new specialty at night school while working a full-time job takes about ten years.
>
> Thats a lie.
Oh, no it's not. And now you're so full of shit your eyes are brown.
>
>> And the on-line schools are hideously expensive; classes here are primarily financed by employers.
>
> All the more reason to choose a specialty with a future properly in the first place.
Riighhhtt! Could you share the phone number of the fortune teller you
used when you planned your career? Do distribute it to all those young
men who are now looking for a career.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Bama Brian wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> m...@privacy.net wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight years.
>>>>>> He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.
>>>>> Like what KIND of engineering?
>>>> Civil would be fine, any modern first world country keeps needing
>>>> decent infrastructure and a water supply, sewage treatment, roads,
>>>> bridges etc etc etc.
>>>>> serious question
>>> Apparently, Rod, old hooting baboon, you don't know that in order
>>> to switch engineering specialties it takes from two to three years
>>> of full-time school to pick up that new accreditation.
>> Or you are so stupid that you cant manage to grasp
>> that I was saying that he should have got qualified in
>> an engineering field with some future in the first place.
> Oh, I got that, Rod, old hooting baboon. But the events of the last twenty years are being viewed by those eyeballs
> you have implanted in your buttocks, with 20-20 hindsight.
Nope, it was obvious that long ago that Japan had taken over much
of the manufacturing that had been done in first world countrys and
that it was quite likely that other countrys would also exploit their
much lower labor costs to compete on manufacturing too.
They even managed a few innovative products like the walkman too.
> It is extremely arrogant of you to imply that young men should have the ability to foretell the future.
Dont have to foretell the detail pricely, just the obvious basic trends.
It was obvious then that Japan would have to do something different
to have any hope of becoming a significant presence in the car industry
for example, so its no surprise that they manage to exploit the real
weaknesses in the US system to come out ahead. They had to
because thats all they ever had with few natural resources etc.
> Reality is that you worked for a government. Guess what, Hoot? If we all work for a government, nothing will ever
> get done.
No one is suggesting everyone should world for a govt. If however you
are into engineering, it should be obvious to even someone as stupid as
you that there will always be a decent future for CEs, because everyone
will always need basic stuff like water, their sewage disposed of, bridges
and roads etc etc etc built and that its a tad hard to offshore stuff like that.
> Governments don't create anything except government employees.
Wrong, as always.
> And they have to tax wage earners to pay bureaucratic salaries.
The taxes paid for water, sewage disposal, bridges and roads etc etc
etc are no different to paying a non govt operation for them. In fact many
modern govts do get private operations to do that stuff and to run them too.
>>> Married men with families typically don't have the resources to go back to school full-time.
>> Pig ignorant lie, most obviously when the wife is in a well paid job.
> Most men do not have such.
Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.
> Especially older men, whose wives were taught when they were young that being a nurse or schoolteacher was all they
> could hope for.
We werent talking about older men, I was asked what field
a 22 year old should consider that has a decent future.
>> And how is whining about no one being prepared to offer you a job any better anyway ?
> Syntax, Rod, syntax.
Bullshit, gutless, bullshit.
>>> Trying to pick up the new specialty at night school while working a full-time job takes about ten years.
>> Thats a lie.
> Oh, no it's not.
Yes it is. That one I mentioned did it that way and it didnt take him that long.
I know quite a few others who have done that too.
>>> And the on-line schools are hideously expensive; classes here are primarily financed by employers.
>> All the more reason to choose a specialty with a future properly in the first place.
> Riighhhtt! Could you share the phone number of the fortune teller you used when you planned your career?
Dont need one of those. Its been obvious for decades now that
the work CEs do is a hell of a lot harder to offshore than what
many EEs do. Those who work in low end manufacturing in spades.
It should be obvious to even someone as stupid as you that the military
doesnt offshore much of their manufacturing for some strange reason.
> Do distribute it to all those young men who are now looking for a career.
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
Mark-T
> >> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> >> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> >> powerhouse again
>
> > Indeed, let's return to the standard of living displayed
> > in "Leave it to Beaver"
>
> >> This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
> >> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
>
> > Immigration destroyed this country. History shows that clearly.
>
> Immigration produced the country. History shows that clearly.
I have found that ability to detect sarcasm is a
useful measure of intelligence.
Mark
B1ackwater
<MarkTa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Feb 21, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
>> >> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
>> >> powerhouse again
>>
>> > Indeed, let's return to the standard of living displayed
>> > in "Leave it to Beaver"
>>
>> >> This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
>> >> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
>>
>> > Immigration destroyed this country. =A0History shows that clearly.
>>
>> Immigration produced the country. History shows that clearly.
>
>I have found that ability to detect sarcasm is a
>useful measure of intelligence.
Immigration USED TO build this country.
But does it anymore ???
Used to be an underpopulated bit of real-estate
with zillions of would-be customers around the
globe eager for our products.
Adding more labor to that customer-rich environment
was a big help.
Now, many of those old customers produce their OWN
products ... and expect US to buy.
Adding more labor to a customer-SHORT environment
will NOT be a help.
Ergo, very SELECTIVE immigration policies oughtta be
the rule for now ... just foreign professionals -
engineers, scientists, programmers and such ... people
likely to improve our export figures. Even Arnie S., as
insignificant he was way back when, might not qualify.
Yep, he went ON to make profitible exports ... but we
kinda need surer-things right now.
If we ever regain our customer base, THEN we can
offer more slack again.
But not right now.
Rod Speed
> Mark-T <MarkTa...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and
>>>>> allow US workers - and only US workers - the ability
>>>>> to make this country into a powerhouse again
>>>> Indeed, let's return to the standard of living displayed in "Leave it to Beaver"
>>>>> This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
>>>>> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
>>>> Immigration destroyed this country. History shows that clearly.
>>> Immigration produced the country. History shows that clearly.
>> I have found that ability to detect sarcasm is a useful measure of intelligence.
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
> Immigration USED TO build this country.
> But does it anymore ???
Time will tell. Its never clear when its actually happening.
> Used to be an underpopulated bit of real-estate
Yep.
> with zillions of would-be customers around the globe eager for our products.
Nope.
> Adding more labor to that customer-rich environment was a big help.
Nope.
> Now, many of those old customers produce their OWN products ...
And do that with vastly lower labor costs.
> and expect US to buy.
And anyone with a clue does that when the price is much better than with locally produced stuff.
> Adding more labor to a customer-SHORT environment will NOT be a help.
It hasnt been about labor in the US for a long time now.
> Ergo, very SELECTIVE immigration policies oughtta be the rule for now ...
Yes, the US already has plenty of unemployable scum.
> just foreign professionals - engineers, scientists, programmers and such ...
Makes a lot more sense to employ local professionals instead.
> people likely to improve our export figures.
The US economy has never been about export figures.
> Even Arnie S., as insignificant he was way back when, might not qualify. Yep, he
> went ON to make profitible exports ... but we kinda need surer-things right now.
No such animal.
> If we ever regain our customer base,
Still got plenty of those.
> THEN we can offer more slack again.
> But not right now.
In spades with the engineers, scientists, programmers and such you want to keep importing.
Bama Brian
No matter how many CE's graduate, there will forever be only a limited
need. When that number is reached, only replacement CE's would be
needed to replace retirees.
>
>> Governments don't create anything except government employees.
>
> Wrong, as always.
Name something that any government has created, besides public works
that came from taxes. Then name the government that has voluntarily
down-sized itself.
>
>> And they have to tax wage earners to pay bureaucratic salaries.
>
> The taxes paid for water, sewage disposal, bridges and roads etc etc
> etc are no different to paying a non govt operation for them. In fact many
> modern govts do get private operations to do that stuff and to run them too.
So? It's still taxes which pay for those things.
>
>>>> Married men with families typically don't have the resources to go back to school full-time.
>
>>> Pig ignorant lie, most obviously when the wife is in a well paid job.
>
>> Most men do not have such.
>
> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.
Utter bullshit from an utter bullshitter.
>
>> Especially older men, whose wives were taught when they were young that being a nurse or schoolteacher was all they
>> could hope for.
>
> We werent talking about older men, I was asked what field
> a 22 year old should consider that has a decent future.
Goal post move noted.
>
>>> And how is whining about no one being prepared to offer you a job any better anyway ?
>
>> Syntax, Rod, syntax.
>
> Bullshit, gutless, bullshit.
>
>>>> Trying to pick up the new specialty at night school while working a full-time job takes about ten years.
>
>>> Thats a lie.
>
>> Oh, no it's not.
>
> Yes it is. That one I mentioned did it that way and it didnt take him that long.
Depends on what you're trying to do. If you're an EE trying to convert
to a CE, you may as well pick another profession that takes less time to
qualify.
>
> I know quite a few others who have done that too.
>
>>>> And the on-line schools are hideously expensive; classes here are primarily financed by employers.
>
>>> All the more reason to choose a specialty with a future properly in the first place.
>
>> Riighhhtt! Could you share the phone number of the fortune teller you used when you planned your career?
>
> Dont need one of those. Its been obvious for decades now that
> the work CEs do is a hell of a lot harder to offshore than what
> many EEs do. Those who work in low end manufacturing in spades.
Obvious to whom, Hoot? The average man, or the self-professed "smarter
than thou" assholes, such as yourself?
>
> It should be obvious to even someone as stupid as you that the military
> doesnt offshore much of their manufacturing for some strange reason.
The military is an arm of the government and creates nothing. The
military in every country is only chartered to break things and kill people.
>
>> Do distribute it to all those young men who are now looking for a career.
>
> Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
For a fellow who is supposed to be smart, you certainly have little or
nothing in the way of comebacks.
Rod Speed
>>>>>>> serious question
True of any field.
> When that number is reached, only replacement CE's would be needed to replace retirees.
And since plenty of them are boomers, that wont be a problem.
>>> Governments don't create anything except government employees.
>> Wrong, as always.
> Name something that any government has created, besides public works
That alone is one obvious example.
> that came from taxes.
Thats the way that what govt does is paid for.
> Then name the government that has voluntarily down-sized itself.
The US did just that after WW2 ended with its military. So
did all the other govts that were militarily involved in WW2 too.
>>> And they have to tax wage earners to pay bureaucratic salaries.
>> The taxes paid for water, sewage disposal, bridges and roads etc etc etc are no different to paying a non govt
>> operation for them. In fact many modern govts do get private operations to do that stuff and to run them too.
> So? It's still taxes which pay for those things.
Thats the way that what govt does is paid for.
>>>>> Married men with families typically don't have the resources to go back to school full-time.
>>>> Pig ignorant lie, most obviously when the wife is in a well paid job.
>>> Most men do not have such.
>> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.
> Utter bullshit from an utter bullshitter.
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
>>> Especially older men, whose wives were taught when they were young
>>> that being a nurse or schoolteacher was all they could hope for.
>> We werent talking about older men, I was asked what field
>> a 22 year old should consider that has a decent future.
> Goal post move noted.
Everyone can see you are lying, as always. That was the ORIGINAL
question, you silly little pathetic excuse for a lying bullshit artist.
>>>> And how is whining about no one being prepared to offer you a job any better anyway ?
>>> Syntax, Rod, syntax.
>> Bullshit, gutless, bullshit.
>>>>> Trying to pick up the new specialty at night school while working a full-time job takes about ten years.
>>>> Thats a lie.
>>> Oh, no it's not.
>> Yes it is. That one I mentioned did it that way and it didnt take him that long.
> Depends on what you're trying to do.
That one did what we were talking about, got qualified as a CE.
> If you're an EE trying to convert to a CE, you may as well pick another profession that takes less time to qualify.
That one was qualifying as a CE, and wasnt already qualified as an EE, you pathetic excuse for a lying bullshit artist.
AND his wife was being very well paid at the time as well, as a medical professional.
She still is.
>> I know quite a few others who have done that too.
>>>>> And the on-line schools are hideously expensive; classes here are primarily financed by employers.
>>>> All the more reason to choose a specialty with a future properly in the first place.
>>> Riighhhtt! Could you share the phone number of the fortune teller you used when you planned your career?
>> Dont need one of those. Its been obvious for decades now that the work CEs do is a hell of a lot harder to offshore
>> than what many EEs do. Those who work in low end manufacturing in spades.
> Obvious to whom, Hoot?
Obvious to anyone with a clue, cretin.
> The average man,
We werent even talking about those, just an engineer
deciding which engineering field had more future.
> or the self-professed "smarter than thou" assholes, such as yourself?
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
>> It should be obvious to even someone as stupid as you that the military doesnt offshore much of their manufacturing
>> for some strange reason.
> The military is an arm of the government and creates nothing.
Wrong as always, it creates hordes of military hardware, and exports quite a bit of that too.
> The military in every country is only chartered to break things and kill people.
They do however need to create quite a bit of military
hardware to do that and export quite a bit of that as well.
>>> Do distribute it to all those young men who are now looking for a career.
>> Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
> For a fellow who is supposed to be smart, you certainly have little or nothing in the way of comebacks.
Fools like you dont qualify, gutless.
residualse...@gmail.com
> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote
>
>
>
>
>
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
> >> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote
> >>> DanB (Previously DB) <a...@some.net> wrote
> >>>> Mark M. wrote
> >>>>> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote
> >>>>>> wis...@yahoo.com wrote
> >>>>>>> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....
> >>>>>>> the debt... the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
> >>>>>>> its manufacturing capability it will be a long slide into a
> >>>>>>> third world level of subsistence.
> >>>>>> a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
> >>>>>> capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
> >>>>>> an economy from a downturn -
> >>>>> China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of
> >>>>> what they produce.
> >>>> I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth
> >>>> disparity problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of
> >>>> affording what they produce. And catching up with the present loss
> >>>> of exports would require a big move toward domestic consumption.
> >>>>http://lakeweb.com/money/Social%20Unrest%20in%20China.pdf-
> >>> Unfortunately, many if not most of china's factory workers are
> >>> migrant workers coming in from the rural countryside/inner provinces
> >> Yes.
> >>> and are paid very little if they are paid at all.
> >> That last is a mindless pig ignorant lie. They wouldnt be coming
> >> to the factorys if they werent being paid to work in them.
> > Aggregate statistics never tell the whole story.
>
> Never said anything about any aggregate statistics.
> If many of those migrant workers werent being paid at all,
> you would not have seen tens of millions of them moving
> from the rural countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
When the factories are successful, migrant workers are
for the most part paid but when the factories or construction
projects fail in China - I've read multiple reports that
suggest there is a high incidence of workers not getting paid.
> > I've been reading reports on a fairly consistent basis
> > over the last ten years of of different incidents in China
> > where factory and construction workers are not paid for
> > several months (they are paid on a montly basis)
>
> That does NOT mean that they werent ever paid at all.
Chinese production workers often get paid so little
that even missing one pay check is an extreme
hardship. So while you might think nothing of
it - to most Chinese factory or construction
workers - the inability to seek redress for
non payment for labor performed is very painful.
Giving the lack of human rights and judicial
recourse available in china to labor - I find it
very telling that aggreived workers persist with
their grievances even when met by armed
repression. The reports I've read indicate that
when workers are not paid - they are put in a
extremely desparate situation. Massive factory
layoffs or closures need to follow shutdown
in an orderly fashion and pay workers before
terminating them. The chinese government has
to insure this happens or mass civil unrest will
tear the country apart. Reports I read last
fall seem to suggest that the factories in China
were paying workers before terminating them
and cuting back operations in an orderly fashion.
> > and where the employers/owners have
> > either runaway or declared bankruptcy.
>
> Sure, but while that certainly happens, it cant be happening
> to the bulk of those migrant workers or we woudnt have
> seen tens of millions of them moving from the rural
> countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
From 1998 to 2007, I've read reports from china
where employers/owners skip town and not pay
their workers for labor performed. Often when
workers petition or seeked redress for non payment
they are stonewalled or physically repressed
(beaten up) by local thugs hired by either the
employer or local government officials who are
protecting the nonpaying employer.
>
> > During the economic boom these incidents did occur
> > because of poor management, weak labor protection
> > laws, and China's inadequate and primitive judicial system.
>
> Sure, but while that certainly happens, it cant be happening
> to the bulk of those migrant workers or we woudnt have
> seen tens of millions of them moving from the rural
> countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.
Migrant workers leave China's rural country side because
there aren't that many jobs or opportunities there because
of China's rural countryside not only lacks capital and
credit to grow but most of China is still operating under
the economic collectivism/socialism,
>
> >>> Their economic condition cannot be improve by waving the
> >>> magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation.
> >> Correct.
> >>> The only financial mechanism that has been shown to improve the
> >>> economic opportunity of the poor has been micro-capitalization
> >>> (micro-loans) and small business incubator/development
> >>> programs (which were shown to work in Banglesdesh).
> >> Wrong. The other obvious approach is exports and those working
> >> in those factorys buying the goods that the factorys produce.
> >> And they all do that last.
> >
> > I totally disagree with your assessment.
> > There is a high distribution and transaction cost to Import Export
>
> Wrong again. You can deal with them yourself any time using ebay.
You really are out of your league. Ebay and other electronic auction
sites are only suited for low volume sales. Import export sales
are by their very nature large bulk purchases at high volumes.
While I've seen various Chinese import and export sites - they don't
always lower cost of distribution that's because of various import
export transactions cost, e.g. tariffs/taxes, shipping, and soforth.
>
> > - which favors large firms over smaller firms.
>
> You still see plenty using ebay anyway.
Sorry, but Ebay is at its best as retail/auction operation -
its not an import export wholesale distribution hub.
Unlike South Korea or Japan or Sweden - the
USA is not fully wired for broadband. Hence -
the internet only reaches part of the USA retail
market..
> > For example, while a factory in india could
> > make and sell pharmaceticals very cheaply
> > in the USA - they are banned for doing so.
>
> And no one bans most of what china exports.
Actually, The USA did banned Chinese assault rifles
(AK-47). China has also had problems with tainted food
products of late causing multiple countries to ban
chinese baby milk formulas. One is not allowed
to import Chinese pharmaceticuls to the USA either
(india isn't allowed to import drugs to the USA either).
Importing an items is only half the problem in retail
because of the dominance of certain retail markets
by one or two very large corporate entities, e.g. Walmart.
Hence, failure to get shelf space in Walmart might
means a loss of access to about 60 percent of the
retail market in the USA!
>
> > Even when a factory in Canada could make and sell
> > a generic drug in the USA for very cheap - often a
> > larger firm will *buy out* (pay a annual stipend) to that
> > Canadian generic drug maker to NOT make a particular
> > generic drug - as to create a monopoly/exclusive market
> > for their existing name brand designer drug.
>
> Doesnt apply to the vast bulk of what china exports.
I agree. Much of China's export are in commodity
like markets, e.g. steel, fertilizer, textiles, shoes,
electronics, etc. However, commodity like markets
tend to have a low profit margin. While knowledge
base/intellectual property based markets (e.g.
prescription drugs, software) tend to have a
higher profit margin. Because import/export
have a significant overhead cost - markets with
a higher profit margin are more sustainable than
markets with low profit margins. As labor cost
rise, there is an economic pressures to
migrate to markets with higher profit margins
and outsource markets with lower profit margins.
>
> Thats as silly as claiming that just because heroin or
> cocaine trafficking is banned, that has any relevance
> what so ever to what china can export fine.
You should stop taking recreational drugs;
it is making you delusionary. (9_9)
>
> > In addition, dual use technology restrictions
> > limit many technologies from being
> > exported in the USA, e.g. advance GPS
> > equipment or encryption security programs.
> > One has to go through an array of regulatory
> > barriers to import or export a motor vehicle -
> > such initial cost is too high for most smaller firms.
>
> Pity about all the rest of china's exports where that doesnt apply.
You failed to understand or appreciate the
situation - its is not what China can export
to the USA but what China can import from
the USA that is important ( to resolve the
US-China trade imbalance). At issue,
is what does the USA make or provide that
China can't make or that the USA can
provided at a signficant cheaper cost than
China could? If the USA restricts exports
to China on items it cannot produce because
of its dual use in the military - then there is
that much less on the table on the USA
side to end the trade imbalance.
> > The USA economy is not driven by free markets but by
> > technological/intellectual property based monopolies,
>
> Wrong again. The absolute vast bulk of the US economy
> is actually driven by services which arent even licensed.
False.
Non professional services donot drive the US economy.
Non professional /unlicense service sector has a very
high overhead / low profit margin - and operate under the
same inherent market weakness as unskilled production
laborers. Professional/licensed services, e.g. lawyers, doctors,
accountants, plumbers, civil engineers, and soforth,
drive the US economy in that they not only make
more money but have access to technological
monoployies which more often than not have high
profit margins.
> > e.g. copyrighted images like "mickey mouse" and
> > patents for microprocessors to hybrid corn seeds.
>
> Thats a trivial part of the total US economy.
false.
>
> > In addition, another hi-profit part of the US economy
> > is based on government handouts/licenses/grants,
> > e.g. a radio frequency-bandwidth to make public
> > broadcast, rights to harvest trees from public
> > lands, rights to mine for minerals from public
> > lands, the right to graze cattle over public
> > lands, and/or to fish along the coast.
>
> Also a trivial part of the total US economy.
false again.
residualse...@gmail.com
> > Migrant factory workers inside China are ofte paided very little
> > because there are no jobs in the rural countryside.
>
> work there is is much better outside the rural countryside,
> both in the pay and the basic working conditions as well.
All the reports that I've read for the last ten years
about factory work in China contradicts your assertion.
All the reports I've read consistently indicate that
migrant worker in China that come from the rural
country side often if not alwasy don't get paid very
well when compare to the cost they incur by working
at a factory (often employer charges for employees
for room and board eat into a a significant portion
of the at the salary ) and the working conditions
are often not that good either .
> > Because of the extreme competitive forces - even during
> > economic boom periods many factories have shut down in
> > the past decade or so - run out of business by the competition.
>
> Yes, but thats an entirely separate matter to whether
> they are paid or not before the operation goes bust.
In the stories that i've read, before a company goes bust
often employees are asked to take an IOU for several
months wages - so when the company goes bust it
was not uncommon to hear that an employee had not
been paid for several months wages.
> Wrong. There is no overhead involved in posting stuff to the buyer.
Irrelevent.
Just "posting stuff" on the internet doesn't eliminate
import and export taxes, licensing/registration/distributor fees,
warehouse &shipping cost, and other financial overhead cost
with dealing with import/exports ( there is a financial
charge for exchange foriegn currencies).
> > All goods end up costing more as an
> > export than if they were sold domestically.
>
> Yes, but most of the goods exported cant be sold domestically
> in china, because most of the chinese dont have the standard
> of living to be able to afford to buy them.
Domestic chinese-made products are likely to be much more
cheaper than most US-made products.
> > While it might cost $36 to make a famous brand
> > sneaker in Taiwan - almost all the profit from
> > selling that sneaker $240 is made in the USA.
> > However, since that $36 sneaker has a famous logo brand
> > name on it - the distribution and sale of that sneaker is strictly
> > controlled in the USA so that by the time that $36 sneaker
> > entered the USA it cost $180 wholesale on Ebay.
> Thats just plain wrong. Huge swathes of the USA GNP
> is for very basic stuff like food, what you use to clean
> the house with, etc etc etc
Misleading.
Consumer staple Market is a large sector of
the economy but it does not dominate the
economy - IIRC aerospace, computers &
electronics, military/defense, energy,.
and professional services industrial sector
are the main sources of growth/profit centers for the
US economy. Food stuff, and household
cleaner have a low fixed profit margin.
> > India's Pharma industry has purchased the
> > rights to make many of USA Pharm products
> > and can make them at a much lower cost but such products
> > are banned from entering the USA ( often by contract).
>
> Mostly it isnt done by contract.
False.
As a matter of practice, when India's Pharam industry
obtains the rights to produce a US Pharma product, the
Indian firm must agree (usually by signing
an agreement) to limitation to the sales and distribution
of their product. It's a standard US marketing practice -
for example, any authorized Microsoft software
distributor signs an agreement restricting the
sale and distribution of Microsoft products:
it controls not just where and how you sell Microsoft
products but how much you can charge for it.
> No it hasnt except with military hardware, very little of which china
> would buy anyway since it can get the russian stuff much cheaper.
False.
Under the US dual use technology export restriction
high tech items that are not military hardware but could
possibly be integrated into military hardware are banned.
The law essentially allows the government to dynamically
add things to the list of banned exports - so anything new
or unique which hasn't been exported before would have
to get federal approval before being shipped to china.
Russia can be just as difficult as the USA too..
> That happens for completely different reasons. There is f**k
> all that the US would like to export that china needs to import
A person buys from a seller because they want to.
So it's not what the US would like to export to China
but what China would like to import from the USA
> There is ** all that china would like to export that isnt
> significantly cheaper than the same thing made in the US.
As cost of manufacturing in China increase - there is
increasing pressure to move manufacturing out of
china to other places like Vietnam and Guam were the cost
of Labor is even cheaper! This is now happening with
shoe ( Nike ) and apparel/clothing (Gap). That is to
say - in a Global Economy - multinational
companies have no responsibilty to trade imbalances
between countries - their only responsibility is to make
a profit for their shareholders.
> Very little is export banned, just military hardware,
> and china would buy very little of that even if it wasnt
> banned, just because the russian stuff is much cheaper.
False.
US dual use technology restriction encompasses civilian
technologies that could possibly have dual military use.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Migrant factory workers inside China are ofte paided
>>> very little They've migrated to work in the urban areas
>>> for work because there are no jobs in the rural countryside.
>> Most of them migrate because what work there is is
>> much better outside the rural countryside, both in the
>> pay and the basic working conditions as well.
> All the reports that I've read for the last ten years
> about factory work in China contradicts your assertion.
Then you need to read less shit and try more viable sources.
http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2009/china_crisis_hi.asx
> All the reports I've read consistently indicate that migrant
> worker in China that come from the rural country side
> often if not alwasy don't get paid very well when
> compare to the cost they incur by working at a factory
How odd that they continue to migrate in their hundreds of millions.
> (often employer charges for employees for room and
> board eat into a a significant portion of the at the salary )
Yes, but the STILL end up with a hell of a lot more cash than
they would if they stayed back where they migrate from.
> and the working conditions are often not that good either .
Yes, but the STILL end up with a hell of a lot better working conditions
than they would if they stayed back where they migrate from.
>>> Because of the extreme competitive forces - even during
>>> economic boom periods many factories have shut down in
>>> the past decade or so - run out of business by the competition.
>> Yes, but thats an entirely separate matter to whether
>> they are paid or not before the operation goes bust.
> In the stories that i've read, before a company goes
> bust often employees are asked to take an IOU for
> several months wages - so when the company goes
> bust it was not uncommon to hear that an employee
> had not been paid for several months wages.
Yes, but thats an entirely separate matter to whether
they are paid or not before the operation goes bust.
>>>>>>> Their economic condition cannot be improve by waving the
>>>>>>> magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation.
>>>>>>> Correct. The only financial mechanism that has been shown to
>>>>>>> improve the economic opportunity of the poor has been
>>>>>>> micro-capitalization (micro-loans) and small business incubator/
>>>>>>> development programs (which were shown to work in Banglesdesh).
>>>>>> Wrong. The other obvious approach is exports and those working
>>>>>> in those factorys buying the goods that the factorys produce.
>>>>>> And they all do that last.
>>>>> I totally disagree with your assessment.
>>>>> There is a high distribution and transaction cost to Import Export
>>>> Wrong again. You can deal with them yourself any time using ebay.
>>> False
>> Nope. I do it all the time.
>>> Ebay and the similar auction sites in the USA and China does not
>>> elimitate the high overhead that is inherited by Import and Export.
>> Wrong. There is no overhead involved in posting stuff to the buyer.
> Irrelevent.
Nope, it blows a damned great hole in your claim, which
you carefully deleted from that quoting and I have restored.
> Just "posting stuff" on the internet
I didnt say anything about posting stuff on the internet, I was talking
about posting the physical goods I have bought using the mail service.
> doesn't eliminate import and export taxes,
None of those involved in anything I have bought from china using ebay.
> licensing/registration/distributor fees,
None of those involved in anything I have bought from china using ebay.
> warehouse &shipping cost,
None of those involved in anything I have bought from china using ebay.
> and other financial overhead cost with dealing with import/exports
None of those involved in anything I have bought from china using ebay.
> ( there is a financial charge for exchange foriegn currencies).
Thats the seller's problem, not mine. I just pay using paypal.
Presumably most of them dont bother to change the
currency, they just keep what they receive in USD.
>>> All goods end up costing more as an export than if they were sold domestically.
>> Yes, but most of the goods exported cant be sold domestically
>> in china, because most of the chinese dont have the standard
>> of living to be able to afford to buy them.
> Domestic chinese-made products are likely to be
> much more cheaper than most US-made products.
Yes, but thats an entirely separate matter to how many of the items
I buy from china directly using ebay are sold in china by those sellers.
In fact I know with absolutely certainty, because a mate of
mine has been working in china for quite a while now, teaching
them english, that what I buy from china using ebay is quite
different to what the chinese buy on the domestic market.
>>> While it might cost $36 to make a famous brand
>>> sneaker in Taiwan - almost all the profit from
>>> selling that sneaker $240 is made in the USA.
>>> However, since that $36 sneaker has a famous logo brand
>>> name on it - the distribution and sale of that sneaker is strictly
>>> controlled in the USA so that by the time that $36 sneaker
>>> entered the USA it cost $180 wholesale on Ebay.
>> Thats just plain wrong. Huge swathes of the USA GNP is for very
>> basic stuff like food, what you use to clean the house with, etc etc etc
> Misleading.
Nope, much of that comes from china now.
> Consumer staple Market is a large sector of the
> economy but it does not dominate the economy
You are just plain wrong.
> - IIRC aerospace, computers & electronics, military/defense,
> energy,. and professional services industrial sector are the
> main sources of growth/profit centers for the US economy.
How odd that Walmart, which mostly sells stuff from china,
actually has a turnover that is much bigger than some countrys.
> Food stuff, and household cleaner have a low fixed profit margin.
Irrelevant to your stupid claim about the profit margin on most of what the consumer buys.
Even the stupidest consumer spends fuck all a percentage of their spending on those stupid shoes.
>>> India's Pharma industry has purchased the rights to make many of
>>> USA Pharm products and can make them at a much lower cost but
>>> such products are banned from entering the USA ( often by contract).
>> Mostly it isnt done by contract.
> False.
Nope.
> As a matter of practice, when India's Pharam industry
> obtains the rights to produce a US Pharma product,
Pity about when they dont bother.
> the Indian firm must agree (usually by signing an agreement)
> to limitation to the sales and distribution of their product.
> It's a standard US marketing practice - for example, any
> authorized Microsoft software distributor signs an agreement
> restricting the sale and distribution of Microsoft products:
> it controls not just where and how you sell Microsoft
> products but how much you can charge for it.
Pity about when they dont bother with any agreement and just produce it anyway.
India has ALWAYS done plenty of that.
>>> By restricting hi-value export to China
>> No it hasnt except with military hardware, very little of which china
>> would buy anyway since it can get the russian stuff much cheaper.
> False.
Nope.
> Under the US dual use technology export restriction
> high tech items that are not military hardware but could
> possibly be integrated into military hardware are banned.
Same thing.
> The law essentially allows the government to dynamically
> add things to the list of banned exports - so anything new
> or unique which hasn't been exported before would have
> to get federal approval before being shipped to china.
Wrong, as always.
> Russia can be just as difficult as the USA too..
Pigs arse it is with military hardware.
>>> - USA has reduced its exports to China to mainly lo-value items
>> Utterly mangled all over again. Try aircraft for starters.
>>> which making balanced trade problematic to next to impossible.
>> That happens for completely different reasons. There is fuck
>> all that the US would like to export that china needs to import
> A person buys from a seller because they want to.
And there is fuck all that china wants to buy from the US.
> So it's not what the US would like to export to China
Never ever said it was.
> but what China would like to import from the USA
What I said.
>> There is fuck all that china would like to export that isnt
>> significantly cheaper than the same thing made in the US.
> As cost of manufacturing in China increase
Wont be happening any time soon with hundreds of millions
of chinese in rural areas prepared to work for peanuts.
> - there is increasing pressure to move manufacturing
> out of china to other places like Vietnam and Guam
> were the cost of Labor is even cheaper!
But which dont have anything like the economy
that china has or the infrastructure in spades.
> This is now happening with shoe ( Nike ) and apparel/clothing (Gap).
A fart in the bath in china's total exports.
> That is to say - in a Global Economy - multinational
> companies have no responsibilty to trade imbalances
> between countries - their only responsibility is to make
> a profit for their shareholders.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist
pathetic excuses for a pig ignorant bullshit artists ?
>>> In addition, most of the USA GNP is based on the
>>> production of this hi-value technological monopolistic markets
>> Utterly mangled all over again. Look at agriculture for starters.
>>> - thus by banning the export of these items to
>>> China - there isn't many things of hi value that
>>> China can purchase with the US dollars they have.
>> Utterly mangled all over again. Very little is export banned, just
>> military hardware, and china would buy very little of that even
>> if it wasnt banned, just because the russian stuff is much cheaper.
> False.
Nope.
> US dual use technology restriction encompasses civilian
> technologies that could possibly have dual military use.
Still military hardware, just potential military hardware.