How much power does a 120v 15A lighted switch use anyway?
Glenda Copeland
switches (model 5611, aka model 105-05611-21S).
Nothing on the box says how much power each of the lighted bulb uses when
the switch is in the off position.
Do you know how much power a lighted switch uses?
Jack Hammer
Is it neon or led?
mm
About as much as a 110 volt neon bulb. I'm sure you can find specs
for those a lot of places. But it's very little, just a guess 0.01 to
0.1 watts? Let me know what you find out.
Glenda Copeland
>> Do you know how much power a lighted switch uses?
>
> Is it neon or led?
It looks to be neon.
Here are some URLs that describe the switch, but not how much power the
light uses:
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5611-2I-Single-Pole-Residential-Grounding/dp/B0033PSGFK
http://www.drillspot.com/products/121986/Leviton_5611-2W_Commercial_Grade_Wall_Switch
http://www.smarthome.com/4246W/Leviton-Illuminated-Decora-Style-Wall-Switch-White-5611-W/p.aspx
Don Klipstein
I have had a lighted switch at my day job. It had a high intensity neon
lamp, apparently either C2A (NE-2H) or A1C ("mini NE-2H) (hard to tell
through the switch). Figure about 1/4 watt.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Jack Hammer
Address.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 2010 18:59:46 -0700 (PDT), Jack Hammer wrote:
> >> Do you know how much power a lighted switch uses?
>
> > Is it neon or led?
>
> It looks to be neon.
>
> Here are some URLs that describe the switch, but not how much power the
> light uses:
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5611-2I-Single-Pole-Residential-Groundi...
>
> http://www.drillspot.com/products/121986/Leviton_5611-2W_Commercial_G...
>
> http://www.smarthome.com/4246W/Leviton-Illuminated-Decora-Style-Wall-...
I am going to guess at anywhere between 0.1 to 0.2 Watts.
Nothing to be concerned about imo.
Rod Speed
Not enough to worry about.
WW
"mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:s4t3v5tpdnc01omik...@4ax.com...
mm Close. I get .096 watts with one that has a 150,000 ohm resistor in
series with lamp. So if the utility KW cost $ .10 you can figure out the
rest. WW
mm
wrote:
This would be about 9 cents a year, if the light is off all year.
hr(bob) hofmann@att.net
> On Mon, 17 May 2010 21:30:35 -0600, "WW" <c...@nospambresnan.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"mm" <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Much less than the stand-by power a wall-wart uses even when nothing
is plugged into the wall wart.
Tony Hwang
It is negligible regardless what's in there, neon or LED.
I'prefer LED, neon emits electric noise.
harry
Virtually nothing.
Jack Hammer
You are correct. And if I am not mistaken you get more lumen/watt from
led
then neon.
keith
It's likely either an NE2 or an NE2H, which a quick web search shows
are rated for .03W and .09W, respectively. The right answer is
"fagetabooutit".
hal...@aol.com
than the lifetime energy used by this switches lamp............
terry
====================================================================================
Agree: We have a lighted switch still working some 40 years later with
a small neon inside it. The neon glows when the switch is 'off'.
Making it easy to find the switch in the dark! Presumably the switch
mentioned by the OP is that?
There are however other switches that light 'on' when the switch is
operated, useful for indicating that something remote and out of site
has been left on .................! In our case that could be "Oh. The
lighted switch in the kitchen shows the garage light has been left
on"!
Typically indicators employ a neon using 'a couple of milliamps'.
Probably around 115 x 0.003 = maybe 4 one hundredths of a watt at the
most!
24 hours a day 365 days = 24 x 365 x 0.04 = 302 watts or 0.3
k.watt.hrs. each; per year.
At ten cents per k.watt.hr that's about 3 cents per lighted switch,
per year. That is the equivalent of leaving one 100 watt bulb switched
on, once, for one or two seconds or so, longer than necessary!
A typical (neon) spec might be.
DC breakdown volts:70avg
DC maintain volts:59avg
after 100 hours at design current
design current/milliamps 0.3
end of life is 5v change in breakdown for maintaining voltage
maximum diameter:0.275inchs
neon glow lamp
pre-aged:no
voltage range:105-125v
PS: Remembering that in operation there will be a small resistor in
series with the neon indicator and the whole thing (resistor plus
neon) will be across the 115 volt supply (switch off) so that most of
the 302 watts per year will be dissipated by the resistor and least by
the neon indicator itself. At this low power the resistor will not
even get warm!
Except academically the whole topic of how much power is used by each
neon indicator, similar to those on appliances etc. is not worth
bothering about. Leaving an outside door open for a few minutes during
winter, for example, to bring in groceries on a cold/windy day, will
entail more heating cost than a years use of ten such indicators!
Glenda Copeland
> if the utility KW cost $.10 you can figure out the rest.
Our utility prices are 11 cents (�) per kilowatt (KW) for the first KW of
the month but 48� for the last two or three weeks' worth of kilowatts. I
would guess the average KW out here to then be about 35�.
So, if I add a dozen of these lighted switches, and they're on most of the
day, say, 20 hours per day for 30 days in a month, at .096 watts per hour,
that comes to about a penny per day, I think.
12switches x 20hours/day x 30days/month x 0.1watts x 35�/KW x 1KW/1000W =
25�/month
Glenda Copeland
> This would be about 9 cents a year, if the light is off all year.
Using California electric rates, I get, for a single switch, 31�/year?
1switch x 24hours/day x365days/year x 35�/KW x .1W x 1KW/1000W
We have tiered pricing out here where the first week or so costs about
11�/KW, the next week is about double, and the last two weeks of the month
it's more than 4 times as much so I averaged that to about 35�/KW.
Glenda Copeland
> Much less than the stand-by power a wall-wart uses
What is a wall wart?
Glenda Copeland
> Figure about 1/4 watt for those, which means around 2.2 KWH per year
> times 1/100 of the percentage of the time that the neon lamp is on.
I don't understand the 1/100th the percentage (figure 98% of the time the
switch is off so the neon bulb is on).
What's the 1/100 for?
Glenda Copeland
>> It is negligible regardless what's in there, neon or LED.
>> I'prefer LED, neon emits electric noise.
>
> more lumen/watt from led then neon.
It looks like it's costing 25�/month for the dozen neon-lit switches.
What noise would I be worried about? I have the normal stuff (phones,
computer, router, etc.) Which would the neon affect and how?
BTW, I didn't see ANY LED illuminated switches at ACE or OSH in town! :(
Glenda Copeland
> It's likely either an NE2 or an NE2H, which a quick web search shows
> are rated for .03W and .09W, respectively. The right answer is
> "fagetabooutit".
Using 0.1W, and averaging my electric rates (35�/KW) for a dozen switches I
get about 25�/month or $3.00/year.
Glenda Copeland
> The neon glows when the switch is 'off'.
Yes.
> At ten cents per k.watt.hr
The only "problem" is that our energy here in sunny California is nowhere
near 10� per KWh. I'm going to get my bill and come back with the actual
numbers, but the first KWh is about 12� but that only lasts for a
"baseline" which is about a week. Then the next week is double, then
triple, then more than four times that when you get to the last week.
I'm figuring easily that it's 35�/KWh here in California. Any other
Californians out there that can help me on the math?
My math comes to about $3.00/year for the dozen switches.
Glenda Copeland
> Just bought a dozen Leviton decora single pole 15A 120VAC lighted rocker
> switches (model 5611, aka model 105-05611-21S).
> Do you know how much power a lighted switch uses?
You guys have cheap electricity!
I just pulled out my California PG&E bill to check the numbers (I can't
believe you guys pay only a dime per Kwh!!!!!. Lucky you!)
My baseline is 365.4Kwh at 12�/Kwh
Then for 101% to 130% of baseline, it's 14�/Kwh.
For 131% to 200%, it's 29�/Kwh.
And, for the last few weeks of the month, at 201% to 300% of baseline, it's
43�/month.
I averaged this to about 35�/Kwh because I didn't know how to do the math
otherwise (I used over 150 Kwh at the 131% to 200% rate and 256 Kwh at the
29� rate).
.1W/bulb x 12switches x 20hours/day x 365days/year x 35�/Kwh x 1Kwh/1000KW
= $3.00/year
It would be nice to see what others pay for 201% to 300% over baseline 'cuz
if it's 10�, you have the deal of the century!
harry
Well in the UK we pay around $0.25/Kwh. Plus a fixed "meter rental".
Massive rises forecast for the near future. To pay for our
replacement nuclear power stations.
The upside is our electrical appliances are more efficient.v They
need to be.
My electricity bill is about $100/month on average. However I have no
gas/oil bill my house is zero heat needed.
Nonny
"Glenda Copeland" <gscop...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid>
wrote in message
news:27b049686fcf43f9...@tioat.net...
Interesting observation. I know that when a single lead from a
neon light touches a hot wire, the neon light will glow if there
is almost anything touching the other lead. Was used as a voltage
checker long before the IC devices were available. If the neon's
lead was touching a hot wire and the other a ground/neutral, then
the lamp glowed brightly, otherwise, there was a lesser glow.
This leads me to the conclusion that neon lighted switches take
advantage of this ability and do NOT require a lead to ground or
neutral to achieve the low level glow seen in a lighted switch.
Perhaps an LED lighted switch would require a grounded/neutral
other lead to work, together with diode to convert the AC to DC.
--
Nonny
On most days,
it's just not worth
the effort of chewing
through the restraints..
chaniarts
in our area, the rate during the day is 2x the rate for nighttime or
weekends, so we try to schedule our heavy usage for off peak. nighttime
rates are in the .07kwh range.
i run a couple of kilns, at about 8kh each, which can run for 2-3 days
straight, so i couldn't afford to live in ca.
however, i just installed a 7.5kw pv cell array, so my day costs are 0.
keith
$.10, top to bottom, Winter and Summer (heat pump).
keith
Address.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 May 2010 04:57:45 -0700 (PDT), Jack Hammer wrote:
> >> It is negligible regardless what's in there, neon or LED.
> >> I'prefer LED, neon emits electric noise.
>
> > more lumen/watt from led then neon.
>
> It looks like it's costing 25¢/month for the dozen neon-lit switches.
>
> What noise would I be worried about? I have the normal stuff (phones,
> computer, router, etc.) Which would the neon affect and how?
AM radio, close to the lamp tuned to a very weak station, maybe.
keith
Address.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 2010 21:04:51 -0700 (PDT), hr(bob) hofm...@att.net wrote:
> > Much less than the stand-by power a wall-wart uses
>
> What is a wall wart?
Power supply (AC or DC) that plugs into the wall and has a cord that
attaches to an electronic gadget. It's a bump on the wall, hence
"wall wart".
David Nebenzahl
Yeah, Don, what's up with that? Nothing more annoying than unexplained
"adjustments" like that.
--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.
- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
Rod Speed
> You guys have cheap electricity!
Nope, you have very expensive electricity.
> I just pulled out my California PG&E bill to check the numbers
> (I can't believe you guys pay only a dime per Kwh!!!!!. Lucky you!)
> My baseline is 365.4Kwh at 12�ｿｽ/Kwh
> Then for 101% to 130% of baseline, it's 14�ｿｽ/Kwh.
> For 131% to 200%, it's 29�ｿｽ/Kwh.
> And, for the last few weeks of the month, at 201% to 300% of
> baseline, it's 43�ｿｽ/month.
> I averaged this to about 35�ｿｽ/Kwh because I didn't know how to do the math otherwise
You should be using the highest rate you actually get charged, because
that is what you get charged for the extra electricity those switches use.
> (I used over 150 Kwh at the 131% to 200% rate and 256 Kwh at the 29�ｿｽ rate).
That conflicts with the previous para listing the rates unless
that para is badly worded, particularly with the weeks bit.
If there is no week effect, just the charge that varys with
the percentage of what you call the baseline, you should
use the charge for the highest band you actually pay which
will either be 28c or 43c
> .1W/bulb x 12switches x 20hours/day x 365days/year x 35�ｿｽ/Kwh x 1Kwh/1000KW = $3.00/year
Thats hardly a shocking charge that will send you bankrupt any time soon even at the 43c rate.
> It would be nice to see what others pay for 201% to 300% over baseline
We have the reverse type of charging, the rate drops the more you use.
> 'cuz if it's 10�ｿｽ, you have the deal of the century!
Nope, its not that unusual when it comes from hydro.
Mark
>
> - Show quoted text -
there is NO significant RF noise radiated or conducted at all from a
tiny NE-2 neon lamp..
Note, we are NOT talking about neon store window signs that operate at
25kV.
Mark
HeyBub
It's gonna get more expensive soon. Arizona provides about 30% of
California's power, and Arizona is pissed.
Smitty Two
Glenda Copeland <gscop...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid>
wrote:
So you use up your monthly baseline allocation in a week? Maybe try a
little conservation, that's the idea. And you're worried about a damn
neon bulb?
Smitty Two
"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's gonna get more expensive soon. Arizona provides about 30% of
> California's power, and Arizona is pissed.
If they won't give us power, we'll send them our illegal aliens.
terry
Ok on all those numbers but the spec I found showed each neon
indicator using about 0.04 watts per hour.
Based on 0.3 milliamps at 115 volts. Thus wattage = current times
voltage or (0.3 x 115)/1000 = 0.0345 watts per hour.
Per month that would be 24 x30 x 0.0345 = 24.84 watt/hours.
And at ten cents per 1000 watt hours (i.e. per kilowatt/hour) that'd
cost 24.84/1000 x $0.1 = approx 0.25 cents
At 35 cents per kilowatt hour it would be 0.75 cents, per month.
And for a dozen switches 0.75 x 12 = about 3 cents or of the order of
36 cents per year.
Since we are all presuming, it seems, that the indicator light inside
the switches will be off whenever whatever the switch controls is 'on'
the indicators will cost even less than that. In other words if one is
using electric lights, negligible!
keith
> On 5/18/2010 10:11 AM Glenda Copeland spake thus:
>
> > On Tue, 18 May 2010 02:25:44 +0000 (UTC), Don Klipstein wrote:
>
> >> Figure about 1/4 watt for those, which means around 2.2 KWH per year
> >> times 1/100 of the percentage of the time that the neon lamp is on.
>
> > I don't understand the 1/100th the percentage (figure 98% of the time the
> > switch is off so the neon bulb is on).
>
> > What's the 1/100 for?
>
> Yeah, Don, what's up with that? Nothing more annoying than unexplained
> "adjustments" like that.
99% is defined as 99 times 1/100.
keith
There *is* noise caused by the neon firing. Whether you think it is
significant or not is simply a judgment.
keith
> On May 18, 3:16 pm, Glenda Copeland <gscopel...@Use-Author-Supplied-
>
> Address.invalid> wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 May 2010 06:17:06 -0700 (PDT), keith wrote:
> > > It's likely either an NE2 or an NE2H, which a quick web search shows
> > > are rated for .03W and .09W, respectively. The right answer is
> > > "fagetabooutit".
>
> > Using 0.1W, and averaging my electric rates (35¢/KW) for a dozen switches I
> > get about 25¢/month or $3.00/year.
>
> Ok on all those numbers but the spec I found showed each neon
> indicator using about 0.04 watts per hour.
Just a nitpick, but .04 watts per hour is meaningless. It's .04 watt-
hours per hour, or just .04 watts. One watt for one hour is defined
to be one watt-hour.
> Based on 0.3 milliamps at 115 volts. Thus wattage = current times
> voltage or (0.3 x 115)/1000 = 0.0345 watts per hour.
No, it's .04 watts (if that's the number). You can't do some
arithmetic, throwing away precision, and then come back to the same
units with a different number. In this case you lost energy. At
least you could have made a perpetual motion machine. ;-)
> Per month that would be 24 x30 x 0.0345 = 24.84 watt/hours.
>
> And at ten cents per 1000 watt hours (i.e. per kilowatt/hour) that'd
> cost 24.84/1000 x $0.1 = approx 0.25 cents
> At 35 cents per kilowatt hour it would be 0.75 cents, per month.
> And for a dozen switches 0.75 x 12 = about 3 cents or of the order of
> 36 cents per year.
> Since we are all presuming, it seems, that the indicator light inside
> the switches will be off whenever whatever the switch controls is 'on'
> the indicators will cost even less than that. In other words if one is
> using electric lights, negligible!
If one is using other appliances, such as refrigerators, water
heaters, or clothes dryers, the lights themselves are (usually)
negligible (if not, the whole bill is ;-).
keith
> In article <vOOdnTtRQq5q3m7WnZ2dnUVZ_hqdn...@earthlink.com>,
Actually, Arizona is well on the way to sending you their illegals.
bud--
>
> Interesting observation. I know that when a single lead from a neon
> light touches a hot wire, the neon light will glow if there is almost
> anything touching the other lead. Was used as a voltage checker long
> before the IC devices were available. If the neon's lead was touching a
> hot wire and the other a ground/neutral, then the lamp glowed brightly,
> otherwise, there was a lesser glow.
>
> This leads me to the conclusion that neon lighted switches take
> advantage of this ability and do NOT require a lead to ground or neutral
> to achieve the low level glow seen in a lighted switch. Perhaps an LED
> lighted switch would require a grounded/neutral other lead to work,
> together with diode to convert the AC to DC.
If the switch is lighted when off, the neon lamp (and series resistor)
are connected across the switch. The small current through the neon lamp
flows through the load on the switch. For a 3-way switch, the lamp is
connected across the travelers.
For a switch that is lighted (neon) when the switch is on, the switch
probably has a neutral connection. There is a resistor from each side of
the switch to the neon lamp, with the other side the lamp connected to
the neutral.
LEDs could operate essentially the same, probably with an extra diode.
--
bud--
David Nebenzahl
Fine. We'll happily accept them here.
keith
> On 5/19/2010 5:58 AM keith spake thus:
>
>
>
> > On May 18, 9:17 pm, Smitty Two <prestwh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >> In article <vOOdnTtRQq5q3m7WnZ2dnUVZ_hqdn...@earthlink.com>,
>
> >> "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> It's gonna get more expensive soon. Arizona provides about 30% of
> >>> California's power, and Arizona is pissed.
>
> >> If they won't give us power, we'll send them our illegal aliens.
>
> > Actually, Arizona is well on the way to sending you their illegals.
>
> Fine. We'll happily accept them here.
>
Ohioguy
I noticed something funny about the neon light on my Dad's basement
light switch. When I put my finger anywhere even NEAR the tip of the
switch, the neon light appears to *JUMP* away from the end back towards
the base of the switch. I assume there is something of a charge on my
hand, and that is causing the neon gas 'plasma' or whatever you call it
to move away? I never really investigated this, but found it very
interesting.
Don Klipstein
keith wrote:
>On May 17, 8:53�pm, Glenda Copeland <gscopel...@Use-Author-Supplied-
>Address.invalid> wrote:
>> Just bought a dozen Leviton decora single pole 15A 120VAC lighted rocker
>> switches (model 5611, aka model 105-05611-21S).
>>
>> Nothing on the box says how much power each of the lighted bulb uses when
>> the switch is in the off position.
>>
>> Do you know how much power a lighted switch uses?
>
>It's likely either an NE2 or an NE2H, which a quick web search shows
>are rated for .03W and .09W, respectively. The right answer is
>"fagetabooutit".
Some sort of spec sheet for several neon lamps, including NE-2H, by CML
Technologies (formerly Chicago Miniature Lamps):
http://www.cml-it.com/pdf/5-4.pdf
Design current of NE-2H is 1.9 milliamps. Multiply that by 120V and
the result is .23 watt.
In Philadelphia and nearby suburbs in Pennsylvania, that currently
amounts to 28-29 or so cents per year, likely to go up at least 10% in
January 2011, assuming 24 hour per day operation. (USA national average
would be more like 22 cents now.)
This does sound small. However, I would rather consider how much that
adds up to over the life of the neon lamp, knock it down slightly due to
paying-later while investments likely have rate-of-return exceeding
inflation in electricity cost, and consider it to be part of the switch.
Would you still buy the switch at that rate?
--
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Don Klipstein
hal...@aol.com wrote:
>The energy used reading and responding to this post now equals more
>than the lifetime energy used by this switches lamp............
In the unlikekly event an NE-2H lamp conks out and stops conducting
after 25,000 hours at its design current of 1.9 milliamps, this amounts to
5.7 KWH for the NE-2H and its dropping resistor in 120V use. That is
equal to 1 horsepower for about 7.5 hours - I would call that at least
an order of magnitude more than reading and responding to this whole
thread so far.
The electricity consumed by the neon lamp and its dropping resistor over
the life of the neon lamp may cost under a dollar, may cost a couple to a
few dollars, depending on your electricity rates, actual life of the neon
lamp, and inflation of electricity cost. (Is that how much more you are
willing to pay on top of up-front cost for having a light in the switch?
As long as you are aware and willing to pay it...)
Rod Speed
> I noticed something funny about the neon light on my Dad's basement
> light switch. When I put my finger anywhere even NEAR the tip of the
> switch, the neon light appears to *JUMP* away from the end back
> towards the base of the switch. I assume there is something of a
> charge on my hand, and that is causing the neon gas 'plasma' or
> whatever you call it to move away?
Most likely it isnt connected properly and thats not a problem
because the very low current gets thru the small capacitace fine.
Don Klipstein
terry wrote:
>On May 18, 3:16�pm, Glenda Copeland <gscopel...@Use-Author-Supplied-
>Address.invalid> wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 May 2010 06:17:06 -0700 (PDT), keith wrote:
>> > It's likely either an NE2 or an NE2H, which a quick web search shows
>> > are rated for .03W and .09W, respectively. �The right answer is
>> > "fagetabooutit".
>>
>> Using 0.1W, and averaging my electric rates (35�/KW) for a dozen switches I
>> get about 25�/month or $3.00/year.
>
>Ok on all those numbers but the spec I found showed each neon
>indicator using about 0.04 watts per hour.
Make that .04 watts, or .04 watt-hours per hour.
>Based on 0.3 milliamps at 115 volts. Thus wattage = current times
>voltage or (0.3 x 115)/1000 = 0.0345 watts per hour.
I have a lot of experience with a lighted switch at my "day job", and
it is obvious to me that the neon lamp there is a "high intensity" type,
probably C2A (NE-2H) or A1C ("mini NE2H").
http://www.cml-it.com/pdf/5-4.pdf says design current for NE-2H is 1.9
milliamps. Multiply by 120V, that means .228 watt. Since neon lamps
don't conduct at less than 50-60V, I seem to think that average voltage
used to push electrons through from 120 VAC is closer to 130V. That would
mean closer to .25 watt.
>Per month that would be 24 x30 x 0.0345 = 24.84 watt/hours.
>
>And at ten cents per 1000 watt hours (i.e. per kilowatt/hour) that'd
>cost 24.84/1000 x $0.1 = approx 0.25 cents
>At 35 cents per kilowatt hour it would be 0.75 cents, per month.
>And for a dozen switches 0.75 x 12 = about 3 cents or of the order of
>36 cents per year.
>Since we are all presuming, it seems, that the indicator light inside
>the switches will be off whenever whatever the switch controls is 'on'
>the indicators will cost even less than that. In other words if one is
>using electric lights, negligible!
35 cents per KWH does sound to me high. I thought Philadelphia was bad
at around 14-15 cents per KWH. Chicago and NYC are close to Philadelphia
in electricity cost as of last time I checked.
Meanwhile, I would balance lighted switches against another slice or two
of pizza per year or a few more newspapers per year.
Don Klipstein
>On Tue, 18 May 2010 02:25:44 +0000 (UTC), Don Klipstein wrote:
>
>> Figure about 1/4 watt for those, which means around 2.2 KWH per year
>> times 1/100 of the percentage of the time that the neon lamp is on.
>
>I don't understand the 1/100th the percentage (figure 98% of the time the
>switch is off so the neon bulb is on).
>
>What's the 1/100 for?
1/100 of 98 is .98. That would mean KWH per year is 2.2 times .98,
which is 2.156.
Don Klipstein
I seem to think that if such a "p!$$ing contest" develops along with
ability to ship out illegal aliens, I would think that Arizona would send
them back to California, Freight Collect. Maybe along with some of their
own - especially if expelling illegal aliens from a state is legally
easier of not forcing them to cross or dragging them across an
international border.
If California gains competence and allowance at state level of
government expelling illegal aliens, it appears to me that CA would do
better to send them back outside USA as a whole. If not, I seem to think
that CA is not in really good shape to tick off AZ.
Don Klipstein
Mark wrote:
Although I agree with your point, I would like to nit-pick that the
highest common voltage for a neon sign transformer is 15 KV and most are
12KV or less, and less still when loaded down by the neon sign.
Don Klipstein
It is common for neon lamps to be operated with the cathode/negative
glow not completely covering an electrode. In any given glow discharge
lamp, this glow layer has some sort of natural current density in mA per
square centimeter. If the current is low enough to incompletely cover the
electrodes at that current density "rate", then the electrodes are
incompletely covered by glow.
And, it is easy to cause the glow to move around. In some neon lamps
operated with glow incompletely covering their eectrodes, the
cathode/negative glow layer even jumps around on its own. The best
example of this is "flicker flame" neon lamps.
With AC, some trace of current can flow through insulators (such as the
glass bulb) due to "capacitive coupling". Each electrode has to re-fire
60 times per second with usual AC in North America (50 times per second in
Europe). It sounds to me plausible for touching some neon lamps to cause
their glow pattern to shift.
Mark
>
> >there is NO significant RF noise radiated or conducted at all from a
> >tiny NE-2 neon lamp..
> >Note, we are NOT talking about neon store window signs that operate at
> >25kV.
>
> Although I agree with your point, I would like to nit-pick that the
> highest common voltage for a neon sign transformer is 15 KV and most are
> 12KV or less, and less still when loaded down by the neon sign.
>
> --
> - Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Don..
ok point taken...thanks :-) Mark
Smitty Two
d...@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:
Some billionaire woman is buying herself the governorship of CA, and she
doesn't like illegal aliens anymore than AZ does.
David Nebenzahl
You shoulda written "is *trying to buy*" the governator's seat. Meg
Whitman's popularity has plummeted from 61% to 39% since March (just saw
it on the teevee news tonight).
Bill
But there are hundreds of these little lights around a home and they are on
24 hours a day 365 days a year...
As with everything else when being frugal, things add up! Learn to add.
These little power on lights are in everything these days. Try to find a
power strip without any lights in it. GFCI outlets have little lights in
them now. Everything has little lights.
I know electronics and electrical wiring, so I was able to disconnect all of
these lights around my home (the green light in a GFCI was the straw - I
said Enough!). With the GFCI's, I rewired my house so these outlets are now
on 20 amp switches. They are off when not in use.
A good example are outside outlets which are GFCI. Maybe used once or twice
a year in my case, but the GFCI for that is always on and using a little
electricity.
My electric bill went down $2.50 a month after doing this. (GFCI's also
always use electricity even if they don't have any lights.)
That is a $30 a year savings. I need that money a lot more than my electric
company does.
My neighbors on the other hand (who can't add), buy things everyday which
cost $1 or $2. They say it is just $1. And they do this several times a day.
Buy soda pop, coffee at the stand (it is just $2.50), etc.
Then by the end of the month, they are a couple of hundred dollars short and
don't have enough for their bills.
Learn to add. Little things add up...
Note: I don't suggest that people go out an hire an electrician to modify
their existing wiring, that would be silly. I can do these things for almost
nothing, so that is a different situation. But if you are rewiring your
kitchen for example, place a couple of extra switches next to the light
switch - have those switches turn off the counter top outlets. This will
remove power to the GFCI's and to parasitic loads (like appliances which
always use electricity). Just flip several switches and everything is off in
the kitchen!
On parasitic loads...
Leaking Electricity: Individual Field Measurement of Consumer Electronics -
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
http://enduse.lbl.gov/info/ACEEE-Leaking.pdf
Gary H
<gscop...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 17 May 2010 21:04:51 -0700 (PDT), hr(bob) hof...@att.net wrote:
>
>> Much less than the stand-by power a wall-wart uses
>
>What is a wall wart?
It's one of those things on the end of a power cord, that's bigger
than a plug. Makes it look like some sort of fungus is growing on the
wall. These are usually power supplies, but can be other things like
remote controls and GFCI adapters.
Mark Lloyd
<gscop...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 18 May 2010 07:02:52 -0700 (PDT), terry wrote:
>
>> The neon glows when the switch is 'off'.
>
>Yes.
>
>> At ten cents per k.watt.hr
>
>The only "problem" is that our energy here in sunny California is nowhere
>near 10� per KWh. I'm going to get my bill and come back with the actual
>numbers, but the first KWh is about 12� but that only lasts for a
>"baseline" which is about a week. Then the next week is double, then
>triple, then more than four times that when you get to the last week.
>
>I'm figuring easily that it's 35�/KWh here in California. Any other
>Californians out there that can help me on the math?
>
That's a big difference. It's about 8� here in east Texas (figuring
from actual electric bills, NOT company ads).
[snip]
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us
"At one point in time, many of us actually had Jesus as our personal
lord and saviour. Unfortunately, we later had to dismiss him for
incompetence, gross negligence, misconduct and consistent failure to
show up for work."
terry
> On Tue, 18 May 2010 17:20:53 +0000 (UTC), Glenda Copeland
>
>
>
>
>
> <gscopel...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
> >On Tue, 18 May 2010 07:02:52 -0700 (PDT), terry wrote:
>
> >> The neon glows when the switch is 'off'.
>
> >Yes.
>
> >> At ten cents per k.watt.hr
>
> >The only "problem" is that our energy here in sunny California is nowhere
> >near 10 per KWh. I'm going to get my bill and come back with the actual
> >numbers, but the first KWh is about 12 but that only lasts for a
> >"baseline" which is about a week. Then the next week is double, then
> >triple, then more than four times that when you get to the last week.
>
> >I'm figuring easily that it's 35 /KWh here in California. Any other
> >Californians out there that can help me on the math?
>
> That's a big difference. It's about 8 here in east Texas (figuring
> from actual electric bills, NOT company ads).
>
> [snip]
> --
>
> "At one point in time, many of us actually had Jesus as our personal
> lord and saviour. Unfortunately, we later had to dismiss him for
> incompetence, gross negligence, misconduct and consistent failure to
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Maybe OK in principle but ............ Problem is that based on $2,50
per month ($30.00 per year), if indeed it is that much? That just over
8 cents per-day is inconsequential in the overall cost of operating a
North American home. (Less than 1% of energy bill).
Eight cents per day is here (NE Canada) about 8/10ths of 1000 watt
hours during one day, or the equivalent of leaving one 34 watt
fluorescent tube light fixture on all the time!.
Since we have a 9 'LED strip above our sink that uses ONE watt
(total), which we leave on all the time, it's hard to perceive 'All
the little indicator lights' adding up to anything significant!'
Also recall that after WWII, in the UK, neon 'night lights' became
available and my grandfather saying, with some delight, that he turned
off everything in the house except the night light and 'The meter
didn't even move'!
As posted here previously, mains voltage neons use a milliamp or two,
at 120 or 240 volts, LEDs probably less!
And since all/most electrical energy entering a home ends up as heat
within the house envelope anyway .................. !
Don Klipstein
terry wrote:
<SNIP previously quoted stuff on power consumption of neon indicator lamps>
>Maybe OK in principle but ............ Problem is that based on $2,50
>per month ($30.00 per year), if indeed it is that much? That just over
>8 cents per-day is inconsequential in the overall cost of operating a
>North American home. (Less than 1% of energy bill).
1% here, a fraction of a percent there and other places, half a percent
in a couple more, another % in each of a couple other places... That
often adds up to something significant.
>Eight cents per day is here (NE Canada) about 8/10ths of 1000 watt
>hours during one day, or the equivalent of leaving one 34 watt
>fluorescent tube light fixture on all the time!.
>Since we have a 9 'LED strip above our sink that uses ONE watt
>(total), which we leave on all the time, it's hard to perceive 'All
>the little indicator lights' adding up to anything significant!'
>Also recall that after WWII, in the UK, neon 'night lights' became
>available and my grandfather saying, with some delight, that he turned
>off everything in the house except the night light and 'The meter
>didn't even move'!
>As posted here previously, mains voltage neons use a milliamp or two,
>at 120 or 240 volts, LEDs probably less!
LEDs usually take more. Few get less than 2 mA, and 10 mA is typical.
Keep in mind that most indcator LEDs even now have chip chemistries that
were available in the mid to late 1970's. That is done ecause they cost
less than more efficient more modern ones.
With an average supply voltage that LED power comes from likely being
around 5 volts in consumer products other than power strips, along with
losses in the power supply, I would expect typical power consumption by
and associated with each LED glowing in the house to be ~.07 watt. What
if there's a lot of those?
However, I would worry more about wallwarts being plugged in all the
time and computers, monitors, TVs etc. drawing a few watts each when they
are plugged in but "off", and 4-7W incandescent nightlights that can be
replaced by 1/3-watt to 1-watt LED ones.
>And since all/most electrical energy entering a home ends up as heat
>within the house envelope anyway .................. !
Which in most places costs more per BTU than natural gas, fuel oil
and heat pumps do. And when it's not heating season, the electricity cost
does not offset anything. And when it's air conditioning season, the cost
is compounded.
SMS
<snip>
> As posted here previously, mains voltage neons use a milliamp or two,
> at 120 or 240 volts, LEDs probably less!
Indicator LEDs are about 2mA at 2VDV, so at 120VAC the losses in the
transformer and rectifiers are far more than the power actually drawn by
the LED. A neon lamp might actually be more efficient to run off of AC
since you don't have all the losses of the magnetics. You could run an
LED off low voltage AC and it would just illuminate on half of each
cycle (some cyclists do this when they connect an LED directly to their
dynamo without using a rectifier).
SMS
> Just bought a dozen Leviton decora single pole 15A 120VAC lighted rocker
> switches (model 5611, aka model 105-05611-21S).
>
> Nothing on the box says how much power each of the lighted bulb uses when
> the switch is in the off position.
>
> Do you know how much power a lighted switch uses?
These have an NE-2 neon bulb which draws about 0.6mA, so at 120V it's
around 0.07 watts. So 1000 lighted switches would be a little less than
a 75 watt light bulb.
Suffice it to say, the watt-hours you'd save with even 50 unlighted
versus lighted switches would barely be measurable, even over the course
of a year.
Some people unplug things like phone chargers when not in use. I.e. an
iPhone charger draws 0.2W even when the phone is not connected, close to
3X what a lighted switch draws, but still a trivial amount.
You can buy power strips with individual switches to avoid unplugging
wall warts all the time. But you'd probably never recover the cost of
the power strip in saved electricity.
Don Klipstein
>On 17/05/10 6:53 PM, Glenda Copeland wrote:
>> Do you know how much power a lighted switch uses?
>
>These have an NE-2 neon bulb which draws about 0.6mA, so at 120V it's
>around 0.07 watts. So 1000 lighted switches would be a little less than
> a 75 watt light bulb.
My experience with a lighted switch is that its neon lamp is either
an A1C ("mini-NE-2H") or a C2A (NE-2H). Those get more like 2 mA.
>Suffice it to say, the watt-hours you'd save with even 50 unlighted
>versus lighted switches would barely be measurable, even over the course
>of a year.
One of these can easily consume 2 KWH per year.
>Some people unplug things like phone chargers when not in use. I.e. an
>iPhone charger draws 0.2W even when the phone is not connected, close to
>3X what a lighted switch draws, but still a trivial amount.
>You can buy power strips with individual switches to avoid unplugging
>wall warts all the time. But you'd probably never recover the cost of
>the power strip in saved electricity.
Plenty of wall warts consume a watt or two even when no load is
connected. As in basically all of the older technology ones that weigh
more and get warm to the touch even when operated unloaded. That is
fairly easily 8 to 16 KWH per year for each one.
SMS
> In article<4c0d3566$0$1620$742e...@news.sonic.net>, SMS wrote:
>> On 17/05/10 6:53 PM, Glenda Copeland wrote:
> <I snip a bit to edit for space>
>
>>> Do you know how much power a lighted switch uses?
>>
>> These have an NE-2 neon bulb which draws about 0.6mA, so at 120V it's
>> around 0.07 watts. So 1000 lighted switches would be a little less than
>> a 75 watt light bulb.
>
> My experience with a lighted switch is that its neon lamp is either
> an A1C ("mini-NE-2H") or a C2A (NE-2H). Those get more like 2 mA.
I was going by the NE-2, which actually is about 0.03W at 120V, but an
NE-2H is about 0.2W, and an A1C is about 0.14W. So if the light switch
was never turned on, and it was an NE-2H, it would be about 1.7KWH per
year, so you're right, about 2KW a year if it's an NE-2H.
Roy
> On 07/06/10 12:07 PM, Don Klipstein wrote:
>
==
Which is negligible...not to worry about...not to budget for...not to
have ulcers over. In other words...forget it.
==
SMS
I agree, probably 25 cents per switch per year. But didn't someone claim
that they'd reduced their electric bill by $2.50 a month by getting rid
of a bunch of these sorts of loads? I doubt if it was true.
Roy
==
Yes, quite cheap for a light to indicate the location of switches in
the dark. People are a puzzle sometimes.
==
Nate Nagel
> already got rid of the doorbell because the doorbell transformer costs
> close to $10 a year. It dont cost anything to post a sign on the door
> that says "KNOCK HARD".
>
> If you want to see your light switches at night. put one of those
> solar powered sidewalk lights in a window in every room.
I couldn't find any white Decora style dimmer switches that *weren't*
also lighted in any store near me. That's the main reason that I have
two lighted switches in my house (the design department wanted Decora on
the first floor.)
nate
--
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