Doorbell always uses electricity!
Bill
electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
etc.
These things add up...
I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
transformer.
Red Green
news:6ojvt2F...@mid.individual.net:
It's probably stamped right on it but I never looked. Any idea how many
watts it's uses in it's standby state?
Mikepier
Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in
electricity.
Not to mention it might not be safe if someone is standing on wet
pavement and they gey shocked by 120V.
You probably spent more in the material than if you let the Xfmr stay
on for 20 years.
Now how are you going to deal with the TV, fridge, phone, alarm clock,
microwave. Wait don't forget VCR/DVD player, cable box, heating
system, computer, sprinkler timer,
Seerialmom
My first thought when reading this was "ok...so we'd save a few
pennies a month". But I investigated and found a rather interesting
read related to your theory where the author actually tested the
doorbell transformer using a Kill-A-Watt:
http://www.newenglandbreeze.com/nl/TEM20080901.html
Luckily my doorbell isn't lighted, so it's probably not worth my time
and effort to change.
Vic Smith
<mike...@optonline.net> wrote:
>On Nov 19, 9:21 pm, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
>> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
>> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
>> etc.
>>
>> These things add up...
>>
>> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
>> button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
>>
>> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
>> this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
>> plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
>> switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
>> button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
>> button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
>> transformer.
>
>Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in
>electricity.
>Not to mention it might not be safe if someone is standing on wet
>pavement and they gey shocked by 120V.
Geeze, I replaced the transformer powered doorbell in my house 10
years ago with a 15 buck wireless chimer. Couple screws and it's
done. Replaced the AAA batteries once in all that time.
--Vic
PrettyReplica.com
J. Cochran
Bill <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
>this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
>plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
>switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
>button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
>button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
>transformer.
Congratulations. You've just made a potentially lethal accident waiting to
happen. And somehow I suspect your insurance won't pay if someone dies.
I would STRONGLY suggest you do one of 2 things.
1. Rewire that doorbell to it's original configuration.
or
2. Put a GFCI into the circuit
Either way I think would be safe. Option 1 of course would be cheaper, but
if you insist on saving the few pennies worth of electricity, then option
2 would work. And it would be a rather interesting experiment to see how
often the GFCI trips.
The Daring Dufas
division of the local power company. This was back when
they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
had to know something about electronics. They would get
electronic interference complaints which were often traced
to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
one that many people don't even think of today.
TDD
Red Green
news:bb0e589f-e18f-4c9c...@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
Great... I'll eat the three bucks a year and take the beating for being
an environmental criminal.
HeyBub
>>
>> Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in
>> electricity.
>> Not to mention it might not be safe if someone is standing on wet
>> pavement and they gey shocked by 120V.
>
> Geeze, I replaced the transformer powered doorbell in my house 10
> years ago with a 15 buck wireless chimer. Couple screws and it's
> done. Replaced the AAA batteries once in all that time.
>
$15 at 25c/year means you'll recover your costs in 60 years. But the
batteries cost, oh, $1.00 every ten years, so that's another six bucks which
will take another 12 years to recover. But 12 years means one more set of
batteries, which requires another four years. Let's see, now (mumble,
mumble, carry-the-three), ah, yes.
Your wireless solution will save you money after a mere 73 years of service.
This does not count lost opportunity costs of the original $15.
Stormin Mormon
where in the year 2029. You know, third year of the Gonzalez administration.
He took over from the Castro administration.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Red Green" <postm...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:Xns9B5BDC3B7...@216.168.3.70...
Stormin Mormon
in the fish tank, and all the other big power drains.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Mikepier" <mike...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:b0fd2785-bffc-4bd9...@o2g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
retired54
"Seerialmom" <seeri...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bb0e589f-e18f-4c9c...@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
http://www.newenglandbreeze.com/nl/TEM20080901.html
=============================================
$3.15/year. Pretty good deal.
Olddog
Red Green
news:b0fd2785-bffc-4bd9...@o2g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
Gotta dig back in my 60's damaged memory synapses but the AC wires in the
walls generate an electromagnetic field. Metal that passes through these
fields gets induced voltage. So, if you have any metal in what you wear
or carry in your pocket you're sucking "some" level of power. Maybe can
save another .04 a year by instituting a buck naked policy indoors. Huh?
Leroy
yeah, the article stated 3 lousy watts for a *lighted* doorbell. I doubt
that an unlighted doorbell switch even draws a watt. It's a transformer
but it has *no* load on it at all except for the brief moment it's pushed.
Much ado about Nothing.
One watt for a year would be about a dollar a year. The payback
on all the OP's effort will take a Long time. <g>
E Z Peaces
Doorbells once used carbon-zinc batteries. Their shelf life wasn't
good. That explains the change to transformers.
I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines,
which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The
problem was the current draw of the receivers. A set of batteries would
last only a few months, and a lot of visitors might leave frustrated
before I realized my chime was out of service.
How about a wired chime using a lithium battery? The battery could
outlast a transformer and be cheaper to replace.
Vic Smith
wrote:
But my chimes sound better. Aren't esthetics worth anything?
Do the math.
--Vic
AZ Nomad
>In article <6ojvt2F...@mid.individual.net>,
>Bill <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
>>this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
>>plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
>>switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
>>button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
>>button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
>>transformer.
>Congratulations. You've just made a potentially lethal accident waiting to
>happen. And somehow I suspect your insurance won't pay if someone dies.
>I would STRONGLY suggest you do one of 2 things.
> 1. Rewire that doorbell to it's original configuration.
>or
> 2. Put a GFCI into the circuit
A gfci won't deal with the issue of low voltage wiring carrying 110. It is a
fire waiting to happen, especially if there is any possibility of rodents.
It is unfunckingbelievable what people will do to trim off a ten cent/year
cost.
That's right. Maybe ten cents in an entire year.
maybe.
The cost of the pushbutton guarantees that the change will never ever pay
for itself.
And that isn't counting the insane fire hazzard.
Vic Smith
wrote:
Haven't had that problem like that. Just checked to see if it worked,
since I don't get a lot of visitors. It works.
The receiver uses 2 C's, so I was wrong on that. The pushbutton is
unlighted. You can hear the chimes from outside, so you know it's
working. But there's a knocker on the door too, just in case.
Ending my part in doorbells and knockers discussion. That's all I
know. Carry on.
--Vic
max
i have a door knocker. My old house had a hand-cranked
through-the-door doorbell.
No annoying ground currents to kill the Jehovah's Witnesses.
.max
--
This signature can be appended to your outgoing mesages. Many people include in
their signatures contact information, and perhaps a joke or quotation.
Dave Garland
> I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines,
> which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The
> problem was the current draw of the receivers. A set of batteries would
> last only a few months, and a lot of visitors might leave frustrated
> before I realized my chime was out of service.
Why use battery-powered chimes (as opposed to transmitters)? My
wireless chimes plug into outlets (upstairs and downstairs chimes).
Being as they make noise, it's not like precise location is critical.
The transmitters use a "N" battery every 3-4 years. You do have to
check occasionally to make sure it's still working.
The operating cost (75 cents per year for batteries, and whatever the
line draw is) is probably more than a transformer-operated bell but
we're way down in the noise range of expense.
Dave
Dave Garland
> Gotta dig back in my 60's damaged memory synapses but the AC wires in the
> walls generate an electromagnetic field. Metal that passes through these
> fields gets induced voltage. So, if you have any metal in what you wear
> or carry in your pocket you're sucking "some" level of power. Maybe can
> save another .04 a year by instituting a buck naked policy indoors. Huh?
Depending on the climate zone you're in (I keep my house at ~55F in the
winter, and treatment for hypothermia will eat up your savings). In the
right climate, a buck naked policy could be well worth it in
entertainment value alone.
Dave
The Real Bev
> Vic Smith wrote:
>
>> Geeze, I replaced the transformer powered doorbell in my house 10
>> years ago with a 15 buck wireless chimer. Couple screws and it's
>> done. Replaced the AAA batteries once in all that time.
>
> Doorbells once used carbon-zinc batteries. Their shelf life wasn't
> good. That explains the change to transformers.
>
> I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines,
> which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The
> problem was the current draw of the receivers. A set of batteries would
> last only a few months, and a lot of visitors might leave frustrated
> before I realized my chime was out of service.
I don't understand why this is a problem.
> How about a wired chime using a lithium battery? The battery could
> outlast a transformer and be cheaper to replace.
Or rechargeables. The precharged NiMH ones seem to hold their charge
for a long time.
Ours just emits a strangled sort of buzz; replacing it with a cheap
wireless one would be a definite advantage if it weren't for the fact
that our friends all know to knock -- anybody who rings the "bell" only
wants to convert us to something or sell us something.
--
Cheers,
Bev
=================================================================
"There's an apocryphal (I hope not !) story about a Bristol bike
thief found cold, wet and bedraggled one morning, D locked by the
neck to a local bridge." -- Anon
The Real Bev
> With any luck, he'll also remember the computer, the hair dryer, the pump
> in the fish tank, and all the other big power drains.
Don't forget the clock on the microwave.
DGDevin
> I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines,
> which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The
> problem was the current draw of the receivers. A set of
> batteries would last only a few months, and a lot of visitors might
> leave frustrated before I realized my chime was out of service.
>
> How about a wired chime using a lithium battery? The battery could
> outlast a transformer and be cheaper to replace.
How about a brass door-knocker which needs no electricity from any source?
The Daring Dufas
> In article <6ojvt2F...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
>> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
>> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
>> etc.
>>
>> These things add up...
>>
>> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
>> button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
>>
>> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
>> this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
>> plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
>> switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
>> button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
>> button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
>> transformer.
>
> i have a door knocker. My old house had a hand-cranked
> through-the-door doorbell.
>
> No annoying ground currents to kill the Jehovah's Witnesses.
>
> .max
>
I had a big brass Taiwanese taxi horn on the
door to my apartment which was at the top of
an enclosed stairwell. The booming sound it
made when someone squeezed that big old black
rubber bulb was breathtaking. Heck that was 35
years ago, I don't recall what became of that
damn thing but I wish I still had it.
Jehovah's Witnesses are fun to mess with. I
had a big black cape and cap with some horns.
In my best Boris Karloff voice I would invite
them in explaining that I was in need of a good
sacrifice. Have you ever seen a Jehovah Witness
run?
TDD
George
>
> yeah, the article stated 3 lousy watts for a *lighted* doorbell. I doubt
> that an unlighted doorbell switch even draws a watt. It's a transformer
> but it has *no* load on it at all except for the brief moment it's pushed.
> Much ado about Nothing.
>
But a transformer with no load consumes power which is largely given off
as heat. You can observe this by feeling the transformer. Such loads
collectively add up to a lot of waste. If you have purchased any devices
that use external power supplies (cell phone charger, router in recent
times you will notice that that they no longer use transformers and come
with much more efficient switching power supplies. When it comes to
power waste slow and steady wins the race.
terry
>
> - Show quoted text -
Such a door bell transformer is typically capable of a maximum of 7
watts or less when it is actually ringing the bell or door chime. Many
are not designed for continuous use. Next time I have spare moment
will measure the amount of electrcity such a transformer takes in it'
'idle' state.
It's most likely a few milliamps. Well lets say 10 milliamps (A 100th
of one amp) to be generous to a fairly low grade transformer.
One 100th of an amp at 115 volts = 1.15 watts per hour, 27.6 watt
hours per day or 10,074 watt hours per year. That's just over 10
kilowatt hours per year. Although I doubt it is that high?
At my cost of electrcity (ten cents per kilowatt hour) that's just
about one dollar per year. A saving of one dollar per year (over 20
years) could probably amortize a capital saving at the start of that
period of around $12. Spend more that and it not economic.
Our transformer which has been in place for the last 38 years does run
slightly warm. In this cool climate that warmth does very, very
slightly, but insignificantly, contribute to the electric house
heating. Probably less so than normally leaving the bath and shower
water to cool down to house temperature.
Seemed like rather pointless exercise?
Dioclese
news:6ojvt2F...@mid.individual.net...
> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
> etc.
>
> These things add up...
>
> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
> doorbell button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time
> now.
>
> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex
> from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank
> wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary
> push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer
> when the button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going
> to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power
> from the transformer.
>
>
C'mon dude. I'm still working on CFLs for the whole house. Ace is finally
carrying CFLs for those overhead recessed lights.
My house is a bit from the street and faces away from the street. Rural
area, no street lights. The lit doorbell is the only lit beacon guiding one
to the front door. Really helpful on a no moonlit night.
Some of the stuff that is still lit off when "off" is keeping information in
a memory chip. The easy solution, if they ever decide to get "green", is to
do it like on PCs. Put that information using volatile memory powered by a
long-lasting watch battery. The circuit also has a built-in clock for
maintaining accurate time. That's why you can unplug your PC from the wall
for awhile, plug it back in. The time should still be accurate if the
onboard battery is up to snuff.
Cable and satellite receivers have to recover network communication and
verify user authenticity when turned on. The satellite receiver that I use
is uncomfortably hot to the touch, so its using some significant power
compared to say a digital clock. Same when "off".
--
Dave
terry
>
> - Show quoted text -
Make your own batteries?
As mentioned before; in the 1950s I found the remnants of of some
original LeClanche cells.
Leclanche cells were renewable. A glass jar with a carbon stick
positive anode that never wore out, immersed in a strong solution of
alkali (called Sal-ammoniac) and a zinc plate negative. Wires were
attached to the carbon and zinc.
When the zinc wore away and/or the Sal-ammoniac dried out spares could
be purchased at a local hardware/iron-mongers store.
With todays low power solid state (transistor) devices perhaps we
could make our own batteries out of sea water, vinegar or household
bleach and scrap iron????????
Now if I could only make one (several) big enough to run those 'dud
battery' cordless drills I have lying around!!!!!! :-)
hal...@aol.com
button with no light and trip a solid state relay, that would power
the transformer just to ring bell.
taken futher a solar panel could keep the battery charged.
or heck go solar completely with LED lights you might be able to have
the button light up:)
probably cost a few hundred bucks, to save a dollar or two a year.
put the solar panel somewhere it cant be stolen. they can be costly.
someone has too much time on their hands:(
cut out a decent candy bar a day, at a buck each and save 300 to 400
bucks a year
Pat
> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
> etc.
>
> These things add up...
>
> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
> button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
>
> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
> this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
> plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
> switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
> button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
> button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
> transformer.
Great idea, but a bit over-built. Just run a 120 line to the doorbell
switch, remove the switch entirely and put a metal cap on it. It'll
use no power whatsoever. Then when someone pushes the button they'll
get the sh*t shocked out of them and when you hear the yelling you'll
know you have a visitor. It's a much simpler design and will give the
same results.
willshak
> Leroy wrote:
>
>>
>> yeah, the article stated 3 lousy watts for a *lighted* doorbell. I
>> doubt
>> that an unlighted doorbell switch even draws a watt. It's a transformer
>> but it has *no* load on it at all except for the brief moment it's
>> pushed.
>> Much ado about Nothing.
>>
>
> But a transformer with no load consumes power which is largely given
> off as heat. You can observe this by feeling the transformer. Such
> loads collectively add up to a lot of waste. If you have purchased any
> devices that use external power supplies (cell phone charger, router
> in recent times you will notice that that they no longer use
> transformers and come with much more efficient switching power
> supplies. When it comes to power waste slow and steady wins the race.
My transformer is mounted just outside the power box in the basement.
Since all the heat in my finished basement where my office is located is
supplied by the ambient heat of the boiler and water heater, it adds to
the ambient heat. Right now, it is 28º F outside and it is 66º F inside
the basement.
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @
PeterD
<billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
>electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
>TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
>etc.
>
>These things add up...
>
>I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
>button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
>
>I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
>this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
>plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
>switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
>button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
>button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
>transformer.
>
And probably spent more money on something that is perhaps unsafe than
if you'd just let it be... (IMHO!)
At rest, with no secondary current, a properly designed transformer
will draw virtually no primary current. We're talking perhaps a
quarter watt max, usually less.
Now, at a quarter watt, that's six watt-hours per day, or 186 watt
hours per month. At $0.15 per KWh, you are talking perhaps $0.03 on
the electric bill each month. Now, what's the payback for your
project? Say you spent $30 on the romex and switch and box (probably
spent more) you'll get your money back, oh, about the time hell
freezes over!
Another prime example of people acting without thinking. Just like
every other knee-jerk reaction to a percieved (and non-existant)
problem.
willshak
How about the electrodes being stuck in a potato? :-)
PeterD
Why not just a plain-old fashioned door knocker? No batteries, works
well, very reliable, even works if the power is off, and it's *green*
(especially if made from cheap brass imported from China!)
PeterD
<seeri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Nov 19, 6:21 pm, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
>> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
>> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
>> etc.
>>
>> These things add up...
>>
>> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
>> button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
>>
>> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
>> this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
>> plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
>> switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
>> button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
>> button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
>> transformer.
>
>My first thought when reading this was "ok...so we'd save a few
>pennies a month". But I investigated and found a rather interesting
>read related to your theory where the author actually tested the
>doorbell transformer using a Kill-A-Watt:
>
>http://www.newenglandbreeze.com/nl/TEM20080901.html
>
>Luckily my doorbell isn't lighted, so it's probably not worth my time
>and effort to change.
One can be sure that light used about 2.75 watts of the three that the
user measured. Not that I'd trust a toy like the 'Kill-A-Watt' to make
accurate power measurements, especially at those lower power levels...
<g>
PeterD
<azno...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:02:44 -0500 (EST), J. Cochran <j...@mail.fiawol.org> wrote:
>>In article <6ojvt2F...@mid.individual.net>,
>>Bill <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
>>>this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
>>>plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
>>>switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
>>>button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
>>>button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
>>>transformer.
>
>>Congratulations. You've just made a potentially lethal accident waiting to
>>happen. And somehow I suspect your insurance won't pay if someone dies.
>>I would STRONGLY suggest you do one of 2 things.
>> 1. Rewire that doorbell to it's original configuration.
>>or
>> 2. Put a GFCI into the circuit
>
>A gfci won't deal with the issue of low voltage wiring carrying 110. It is a
>fire waiting to happen, especially if there is any possibility of rodents.
>
The OP claims to have rewired the entire circuit with romex... He used
14 AWG, though considering how little real thinking he did, I'd
suspect anything and everything he did.
>It is unfunckingbelievable what people will do to trim off a ten cent/year
>cost.
And thinkg "Wow, what a good guy I am, so smart!"
>
>That's right. Maybe ten cents in an entire year.
>maybe.
That's my calculation too.
>
>The cost of the pushbutton guarantees that the change will never ever pay
>for itself.
Don't ignore the cost of rewiring the button, the romex, the new box,
and the labor. Like I said earlier, payback is sometime about the time
hell freezes over, assuming it can.
>
>And that isn't counting the insane fire hazzard.
Let's be thankful that he's not living near us! (At least I hope
not...)
Harry K
But...but...but...what is the payback? A brass door knocker will run
some bucks and if you only spend 25 cents/yr on electric....
Harry K
Bill
My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done
in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big
things which all add up.
1 plus 2 plus 1 plus 8 plus 1 plus 1 = 14
This same idea works at the gas station. 10 cents less a gallon at a
particular station, fill up 15 gallon tank, do this 3 times a week... Can
make quite a difference if you know how to add.
This project was paid for by money I am saving on my electric bill. And it
was only about $8 because the transformer is in a closet by the door, so
short wire run. So $120 savings minus $8 leaves me with $112 *extra* money
actually.
Everything was installed and wired to code. Metal box and brass plate are
grounded, on GFCI circuit (wet location), wire is 14 gauge romex (regular
electrical wiring, not doorbell wiring), and the momentary push button
switch is rated at 120VAC (not a low voltage doorbell button).
This is my 401K. What better way to go into retirement than to set yourself
up for a low cost of living!
My electric rates went up 13 percent just this year. How much will they go
up in the next 20 years?
Basically there has been a trend to manufacture products which always use
electricity. I'm reversing that trend at my house. I turn this stuff off
when not in use (power strips with switches on them). And switches similar
to this...
http://www.orphanespresso.com/images/Illuminated%20wall%20switch.jpg
Cindy Hamilton
> And what was your electric bill last month?
>
Oh, I dunno, a couple of hundred dollars. We have an outdoor hot tub,
so
the power consumption of doorbells and light bulbs really is in the
noise.
Cindy Hamilton
Tony Hwang
> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
> etc.
>
> These things add up...
>
> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
> button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
>
> this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
> plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
> switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
> button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
> button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
> transformer.
>
>
So what is the pay back time for the materials you used? The transformer
when idle uses very small amount of energy. Turning it on/off frequently
may shorten it's life. computers, most appliances draws small amount of
energy when idle. Automobiles are same. Do you see decreased mount in
power bill as a result? I pay 7 cents for 1KW/h. For that door bell to
use 1KW/h will be quite long time. MTW, our house has motorozied chime
palying Westminster bells.
terry
> And what was your electric bill last month?
>
> My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done
> in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big
> things which all add up.
>
bedroom all-electric house in a cold climate!
What do you use for heating? Gas (said to be cheaper) not available
here. And oil just too expensive and too much of a liability and
maintenance expense.
A neighbour (also all electric house, as most are here) has gone all
CFLs but says it makes very little difference to their electric bill.
CFLs make sense for outdoor locations so maybe when our long life
incandescent burns out (after several years) will try one outside.
Can't use CFLs in our two motion sensor fixtures, but those only come
on for short periods when activated.
Boden
> "Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:6ojvt2F...@mid.individual.net:
>
>>Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
>>electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this
>>like TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in
>>phones, etc.
>>
>>These things add up...
>>
>>I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
>>doorbell button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the
>>time now.
>>
>>I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga.
>>romex from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass
>>blank wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V
>>momentary push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the
>>transformer when the button is pressed. Then connected the two wires
>>which were going to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon
>>as it receives power from the transformer.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> watts it's uses in it's standby state?
This whole thread is about chasing the "little yellow hole in the snow."
It's trivial.
When the bell is not ringing, the current that is measured is largely
reactive or imaginary current. It is the current determined by the
transformer's magnetizing inductance. The only dissipation is some
small core heating and trivial wire losses. The true dissipation is far
less than what most are calculating by multiplying measured volts and
measured current.
Worry about something important...like preserving the US Constitution.
Boden
E Z Peaces
>
> Such a door bell transformer is typically capable of a maximum of 7
> watts or less when it is actually ringing the bell or door chime. Many
> are not designed for continuous use. Next time I have spare moment
> will measure the amount of electrcity such a transformer takes in it'
> 'idle' state.
> It's most likely a few milliamps. Well lets say 10 milliamps (A 100th
> of one amp) to be generous to a fairly low grade transformer.
> One 100th of an amp at 115 volts = 1.15 watts per hour, 27.6 watt
> hours per day or 10,074 watt hours per year. That's just over 10
> kilowatt hours per year. Although I doubt it is that high?
> At my cost of electrcity (ten cents per kilowatt hour) that's just
> about one dollar per year. A saving of one dollar per year (over 20
> years) could probably amortize a capital saving at the start of that
> period of around $12. Spend more that and it not economic.
> Our transformer which has been in place for the last 38 years does run
> slightly warm. In this cool climate that warmth does very, very
> slightly, but insignificantly, contribute to the electric house
> heating. Probably less so than normally leaving the bath and shower
> water to cool down to house temperature.
> Seemed like rather pointless exercise?
Actually, a big transformer that draws an amp with no load may use less
power than a little transformer that draws half an amp. It's resistance
from the copper windings and the iron core that uses power. Without
resistance, the current is 90 degrees out of phase with supplied
voltage, and that means no power.
I think the solution is a DC chime with a modern wall wart. To get the
Energy Star rating, a wall wart up to 50 watts can't use more than 0.3
watts idling. That would mean about 25 cents a year for electricity.
My remaining question is how long a particular wall wart would last.
E Z Peaces
If I went wireless again, I use an outlet-powered receiver. I'd be
concerned about its service life and how much power it sucked.
Jeff Wisnia
> Bill wrote:
>
>> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
>> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this
>> like TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in
>> phones, etc.
>>
>> These things add up...
>>
>> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
>> doorbell button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the
>> time now.
>>
>> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga.
>> romex from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass
>> blank wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V
>> momentary push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the
>> transformer when the button is pressed. Then connected the two wires
>> which were going to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon
>> as it receives power from the transformer.
>>
>>
> division of the local power company. This was back when
> they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
> had to know something about electronics. They would get
> electronic interference complaints which were often traced
> to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
> one that many people don't even think of today.
>
> TDD
Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.
If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a
60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it
can cause interference at radio frequencies?
Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles on
nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? <G>
Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.
AZ Nomad
>And what was your electric bill last month?
>My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done
>in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big
>things which all add up.
You didn't trim $120/month by eliminating three cent/month transformers.
>1 plus 2 plus 1 plus 8 plus 1 plus 1 = 14
>This same idea works at the gas station. 10 cents less a gallon at a
>particular station, fill up 15 gallon tank, do this 3 times a week... Can
>make quite a difference if you know how to add.
I also know that spending two hundred hours to trim three dollars a
year off one's electric bill is insanity.
Turn the thermostat two degrees and it'll outweigh removing every
single transformer in the house.
PeterD
<billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>And what was your electric bill last month?
>
>My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done
>in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big
>things which all add up.
>
>1 plus 2 plus 1 plus 8 plus 1 plus 1 = 14
>
>This same idea works at the gas station. 10 cents less a gallon at a
>particular station, fill up 15 gallon tank, do this 3 times a week... Can
>make quite a difference if you know how to add.
>
>This project was paid for by money I am saving on my electric bill. And it
>was only about $8 because the transformer is in a closet by the door, so
>short wire run. So $120 savings minus $8 leaves me with $112 *extra* money
>actually.
Your bell transformer was using $120 worth of electricity? That must
have been one hell of a big transformer, and an even bigger bell!
>
>Everything was installed and wired to code. Metal box and brass plate are
>grounded, on GFCI circuit (wet location), wire is 14 gauge romex (regular
>electrical wiring, not doorbell wiring), and the momentary push button
>switch is rated at 120VAC (not a low voltage doorbell button).
>
>This is my 401K. What better way to go into retirement than to set yourself
>up for a low cost of living!
Try considering a cost/benefit analysis next time then do something
that is meaningful. Bottom line is that you saved perhaps a dollar or
two a year if you eliminated the door-bell transformer, not that
sillyi $120 you are quoting!
DGDevin
>> How about a brass door-knocker which needs no electricity from any
>> source?
>
> But...but...but...what is the payback? A brass door knocker will run
> some bucks and if you only spend 25 cents/yr on electric....
>
> Harry K
Pride of ownership. Just think how jealous your neighbors will be when they
see you polishing that brass on a nice warm autumn day.
hal...@aol.com
> Why not just a plain-old fashioned door knocker? No batteries, works
> well, very reliable, even works if the power is off, and it's *green*
the cheao chinese brass was a big polluter in china ands added to
world pollution
HeyBub
Good idea. Everybody has boxes full of wall-warts whose original device has
passed on. Shouldn't be too much of a problem to modify one of the right
voltage.
Jeff
I have a real bell with a pull rope.
If I had to do it over I might just leave the axe by the door. They
could just chop their way in, same as the fire department does, if I
didn't hear the knocking.
Jeff
>
>
cl...@snyder.on.ca
<mike...@optonline.net> wrote:
>On Nov 19, 9:21 pm, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
>> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
>> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
>> etc.
>>
>> These things add up...
>>
>> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
>> button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
>>
>> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
>> this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
>> plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
>> switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
>> button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
>> button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
>> transformer.
>
>Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in
>electricity.
>Not to mention it might not be safe if someone is standing on wet
>pavement and they gey shocked by 120V.
>You probably spent more in the material than if you let the Xfmr stay
>on for 20 years.
>Now how are you going to deal with the TV, fridge, phone, alarm clock,
>microwave. Wait don't forget VCR/DVD player, cable box, heating
>system, computer, sprinkler timer,
Go "Amish"
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>Vic Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in
>>> electricity.
>>> Not to mention it might not be safe if someone is standing on wet
>>> pavement and they gey shocked by 120V.
>>
>> Geeze, I replaced the transformer powered doorbell in my house 10
>> years ago with a 15 buck wireless chimer. Couple screws and it's
>> done. Replaced the AAA batteries once in all that time.
>>
>
>$15 at 25c/year means you'll recover your costs in 60 years. But the
>batteries cost, oh, $1.00 every ten years, so that's another six bucks which
>will take another 12 years to recover. But 12 years means one more set of
>batteries, which requires another four years. Let's see, now (mumble,
>mumble, carry-the-three), ah, yes.
>
>Your wireless solution will save you money after a mere 73 years of service.
>This does not count lost opportunity costs of the original $15.
>
Delete from that cost the cost of repairing/replacing whatever was
wrong with the original system (cost of transformer, button, chime and
wire plus labour to replace)
He might still be saving money.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
<dgd...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>E Z Peaces wrote:
>
>> I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines,
>> which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The
>> problem was the current draw of the receivers. A set of
>> batteries would last only a few months, and a lot of visitors might
>> leave frustrated before I realized my chime was out of service.
>>
>> How about a wired chime using a lithium battery? The battery could
>> outlast a transformer and be cheaper to replace.
>
>How about a brass door-knocker which needs no electricity from any source?
>
Or the old "crank" bell - or the one with the plunger you push
(kinda like an old Klaxon horn)
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>Seerialmom <seeri...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>news:bb0e589f-e18f-4c9c...@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Nov 19, 6:21 pm, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always
>>> using electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does
>>> this like TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks,
>>> plug-in phones, etc.
>>>
>>> These things add up...
>>>
>>> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
>>> doorb
>> ell
>>> button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
>>>
>>> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga.
>>> romex f
>> rom
>>> this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank
>>> wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V
>>> momentary push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the
>>> transformer when th
>> e
>>> button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to
>>> the o
>> ld
>>> button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from
>>> the transformer.
>>
>> My first thought when reading this was "ok...so we'd save a few
>> pennies a month". But I investigated and found a rather interesting
>> read related to your theory where the author actually tested the
>> doorbell transformer using a Kill-A-Watt:
>>
>> http://www.newenglandbreeze.com/nl/TEM20080901.html
>>
>> Luckily my doorbell isn't lighted, so it's probably not worth my time
>> and effort to change.
>
>
>Great... I'll eat the three bucks a year and take the beating for being
>an environmental criminal.
The KillA Watt does not compensate for the terrible power factor of
an idle transformer - It will be indicating significantly higher than
the actual power disipation of the transformer.
The incandescent lamp in the lighted doorbel button is likely 80% of
the real draw.
Put a power factor correction capacitor across the transformer primary
and I'll bet the KillAWatt reads less than 1 watt.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>Leroy wrote:
>
>>
>> yeah, the article stated 3 lousy watts for a *lighted* doorbell. I doubt
>> that an unlighted doorbell switch even draws a watt. It's a transformer
>> but it has *no* load on it at all except for the brief moment it's pushed.
>> Much ado about Nothing.
>>
>
>But a transformer with no load consumes power which is largely given off
>as heat. You can observe this by feeling the transformer. Such loads
>collectively add up to a lot of waste. If you have purchased any devices
>that use external power supplies (cell phone charger, router in recent
>times you will notice that that they no longer use transformers and come
>with much more efficient switching power supplies. When it comes to
>power waste slow and steady wins the race.
>
>> One watt for a year would be about a dollar a year. The payback
>> on all the OP's effort will take a Long time. <g>
>>
The fact that my doorbell transformer is not remotely warm to the
touch would indicate to me it is not dissipating 3 watts of power (and
it IS powering an incandescent lighted push button)
The lighted button helps find the key in the dark, so I don't really
care if it costs me $3 a year.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
And instead of driving all over town to save $0.05 a gallon on fuel,
drive less, don't haul junk in the car, drive an efficient vehicle,
keep it tuned and the tires inflated, and stay home more.
E Z Peaces
> The KillA Watt does not compensate for the terrible power factor of
> an idle transformer - It will be indicating significantly higher than
> the actual power disipation of the transformer.
> The incandescent lamp in the lighted doorbel button is likely 80% of
> the real draw.
>
> Put a power factor correction capacitor across the transformer primary
> and I'll bet the KillAWatt reads less than 1 watt.
>
>
The 4400, which I think is their base model, is supposed to show volts,
amps, volt-amps, power factor, watts, Hertz, kilowatt hours, and hours.
Accuracy is advertised at 0.2%.
Almost all customers love it. I was about to buy one until I read a
review by someone who claims to have bought several for an R&D lab.
He found them inaccurate when new, and they were likely to freeze when
current exceeded 7 amps. This made them useless for anything with a
starting surge that high.
All failed between 30 and 50 hours, giving wild readings or none at all.
I believe him because his description is good. It reminds me of
problems I've had with DMMs that can measure up to 10 amps. If you run
several amps through a resistor with little mass, I suppose sudden
temperature changes can lead to microscopic cracks, which affect
accuracy and cause increasingly fast deterioration. I imagine
Kill-a-watt's manufacturer could solve the problem with R&D.
Red Green
Yellow holes in snow are not trivial.
Watch out where the huskies go and dont you eat that yellow snow. [Frank
Zappa]
E Z Peaces
> The Daring Dufas wrote:
>>>
>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
>> division of the local power company. This was back when
>> they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
>> had to know something about electronics. They would get
>> electronic interference complaints which were often traced
>> to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
>> one that many people don't even think of today.
>>
>> TDD
>
>
> Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.
>
> If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a
> 60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it
> can cause interference at radio frequencies?
>
> Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
> transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles on
> nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? <G>
>
> Jeff
>
According to the FCC Interference Handbook, defective doorbell
transformers are often a source of interference to TVs and other
household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer. I think it
happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates.
Dave Garland
> If I went wireless again, I use an outlet-powered receiver. I'd be
> concerned about its service life and how much power it sucked.
I've had one in service for at least a decade. It's outlasted several
of the button/transmitter units. And a second (upstairs) for 3-4 years.
The nameplate current is 50ma (which would be 6W) on one, and about
twice that on the other, but I think that must be when actually making
noise, as I couldn't measure *any* current drain.
Dave
aemeijers
I'm no EE, but I would guess that most of the in-house interference is
back down along the power lines, not through the air. I know that on the
baby shortwave I use to AM-band DX myself to sleep at night, when some
unknown something in my house (or one of the neighbor's houses on the
same pole can) is running, I can't get S**t to come in. But if I unplug
the wall wart and run on batteries it comes in fine, as long as the
unplugged cord is over a foot from the radio. Intermittent as hell, and
annoying.
--
aem sends...
Dave Garland
> And what was your electric bill last month?
>
> My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done
Eek! My electric bill is around $40-45 total for my house, and I've got
an old refrigerator and several computers that run 24/7. But gas heat.
Dave
Boden
If the Guberment says so it must be so. I just don't believe it.
E Z Peaces
Several electric utilities say so. It can also come from microarcs in
transformers on poles. When they get a complaint, they check poles with
an ultrasound detector to pick up noise from an arc.
When a doorbell transformer fails, I imagine it's usually an open
primary. When it first opens, I imagine the vibration of the
transformer could keep the break arcing indefinitely.
The Daring Dufas
Do you know what voltage most (USA) doorbells operate on?
TDD
Leroy
twenty volts or under, while thermostat transformers are typically
twenty four volts.
The Daring Dufas
name is?
TDD
Craig M
EMF pulse through the transformer when its powered up and down quickly, it's
sorta like a old style igition coil, there is a pulse of voltage then the
magneitic field colapases, and having full line voltage at a doorbell button
outside where it may get wet, exposed to the weather is not a good idea
either, but if one realy wants to go green, go with the old fashioned door
knocker, but when we remodeled and put the front door in, I installed a
wired doorbell button and all.
"Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6ojvt2F...@mid.individual.net...
> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
> etc.
>
> These things add up...
>
> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
hal...@aol.com
> I went through a lot of the replies, the one thing no one thought of is the
> EMF pulse through the transformer when its powered up and down quickly, it's
> sorta like a old style igition coil, there is a pulse of voltage then the
> magneitic field colapases, and having full line voltage at a doorbell button
> outside where it may get wet, exposed to the weather is not a good idea
> either, but if one realy wants to go green, go with the old fashioned door
> knocker, but when we remodeled and put the front door in, I installed a
>
> news:6ojvt2F...@mid.individual.net...
>
>
>
> > Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
> > electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
> > TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
> > etc.
>
> > These things add up...
>
> > I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
> > doorbell I wen button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the
> > time now.
>
> > I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex
> > from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank
> > wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary
> > push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer
> > when the button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going
> > to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power
>
> - Show quoted text -
EMF pulse, you worry too much.
Doorbell transformers are highly reliable only had one fail in my
lifetime.
I was about 10 when it got noisey and warm so i replaced it. want to
walk thru our former home someday, wonder if its still in use.
it got noisey and pretty warm, a fond memory of a big fix at the time
Jim Redelfs
"Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always
> using electricity.
So what? I lose more money each year in coins that have fallen between
the seats in my car.
Save the planet? Hardly. If everyone on the grid turned-off their
doorbell transformer, it wouldn't make ANY difference - not ONE iota -
in climate change. None. Zippo.
> This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks,
> plug-in phones, etc.
>
> These things add up...
So what? Hang one - ONE - load of laundry on a line to dry instead of
using the clothes dryer and you've compensated for a LIFETIME of such
minor energy usage.
> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
> button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
You need to get a job or a life - or both.
You could have saved yourself a lot of time, effort and money by simply
turning-off the transformer and removing the doorbell button. Let 'em
KNOCK.
[Shaking my head, walking away and muttering] Unbelievable.
--
:(
JR
Mark Lloyd
[snip]
>The incandescent lamp in the lighted doorbel button is likely 80% of
>the real draw.
>
Can you get doorbell buttons with LEDs?
[snip]
--
34 days until the winter solstice celebration
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
PeterD
You didn't ask Jeff personally. Had you done so, it would have been an
email, instead you asked a general question on Usenet, and someone was
nice enough to reply with good information. And, yes, we know what
your name is: "Asshole".
Craig M
batt on the low voltage side of a doorbell transformer, and feel what you
get on the other side.
that pulse can back feed through the house wiring, and posiblilty zap
something else.
Thats all I was worried about.
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3aea0e8e-0b0d-4dc6...@41g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
Andy Energy
> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
> etc.
>
> These things add up...
>
> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
>
> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
> this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
> plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
> switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
> button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
> button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
> transformer.
It is great to see someone actually measured the watt draw then did
the math for the houses in this country. Our houses have so many
small loads in them that we need to get busy and decrease them. No
I’m not recommending making them unsafe, just efficient.
Here is some information from the California Energy Comission
1. "Energy Use of Household Electronics: Taming the Wild Growth" is a
two-page technical brief. The phantom load (the power used by
appliances that are in standby mode) of residential appliances in 50
California homes have been measured. Contrary to what might have been
expected, findings indicate that phantom load prevention (mostly by
unplugging appliances that are not in use), while still advisable,
would not save a great deal of energy. The loads of appliances in
active mode represent the lion's share of energy consumption, and
suggestions to reduce this energy use are offered as a means to bring
about much more dramatic energy savings than phantom load reductions
might. View this document at
http://www.esource.com/esource/getpub/public/pdf/cec/CEC-TB-
32_HsholdElectronics.pdf.
2. "What Lies Within: Improving the Efficiency of Internal Power
Supplies" is a two-page technical brief. It describes how Ecos
Consulting and the Electric Power Research Institute have developed
energy efficiencies for appliances, how they are interacting with
various members of the appliance sector to encourage the
implementation of those energy efficiencies, and how they are working
with others to encourage energy-efficiency appliance standards. See
this document at
http://www.esource.com/esource/getpub/public/pdf/cec/CEC-TB-
41_IntPowerSupplies.pdf.
I unwired my transformer about 8 years ago and installed a door
knocker. My friends know to knock and the sales people push the door
bell (too bad I miss them). I also have had a negative electric bill
since June 2002. We first got efficient then installed Solar Electric
(PV).
So the concept of reducing the bill is great, let’s do it SAFE. We
all need to question the power consumption on and off of anything we
buy. If the sales person cannot provide us with the rated consumption
we should tell them no thanks. When sales drops enough the companies
will start providing the info.
Some may say it will hurt our economy. Just look at what being
inefficient has done for us. Sending nearly 1 Trillion dollars out of
our country every year, being spent on a product that has a finite
supply and spews pollution into our precious atmosphere, causing
health issues we do not even know about yet. The possibility of
climate change (for those who still do not believe, I do). The cost
of these things are un-totaled and likely far exceed the cost of the
fuel.
Think Whole House Performance, it’s the right thing to do.
Andy
The Daring Dufas
I didn't ask you either. You obviously missed the
point of the question, it was a little dig. I did
not ask the general either. *snicker*
TDD
Rod Speed
> Boden wrote:
>> E Z Peaces wrote:
>>> Jeff Wisnia wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Daring Dufas wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
>>>>> division of the local power company. This was back when
>>>>> they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
>>>>> had to know something about electronics. They would get
>>>>> electronic interference complaints which were often traced
>>>>> to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
>>>>> one that many people don't even think of today.
>>>>>
>>>>> TDD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.
>>>>
>>>> If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving
>>>> that a 60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24
>>>> vac on it can cause interference at radio frequencies?
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
>>>> transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the
>>>> poles on nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt?
>>>> <G>
>>> According to the FCC Interference Handbook, defective doorbell
>>> transformers are often a source of interference to TVs and other
>>> household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer.
Yes.
>>> I think it happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates.
Nope, that cant produce electrical interference.
>> If the Guberment says so it must be so. I just don't believe it.
> Several electric utilities say so.
Not that last bit of yours they dont.
> It can also come from microarcs in transformers on poles. When they get a complaint, they check poles with an
> ultrasound detector to pick up noise from an arc.
Different effect entirely.
> When a doorbell transformer fails, I imagine it's usually an open primary.
Yes, because thats the thinnest wire.
> When it first opens, I imagine the vibration of the
> transformer could keep the break arcing indefinitely.
Nope, you wont get vibration if its got an open primary.
You dont even have enough current to maintain the arc. Completely different to pole transformers.
E Z Peaces
> That pulse can pack a pretty good hit, want to try something, flash a 9 volt
> batt on the low voltage side of a doorbell transformer, and feel what you
> get on the other side.
> that pulse can back feed through the house wiring, and posiblilty zap
> something else.
> Thats all I was worried about.
>
conductors of a telephone cable to light a dial. Occasionally I found
an unsuspecting person to hold the plug.
I also used to enjoy putting my tongue on the terminals of a 9 volt
battery.
The doorbell might absorb some of the pulse, but not as well as a
resistive load. I agree that if you didn't get shocked pressing the
button, you might get shocked releasing it.
Jeff Wisnia
There's always something new to learn....
When I asked for a cite I was thinking only of properly operating
doorbell equipment.
I located this FCC cite:
(It's on page 14 of the .pdf document.)
It sayss there's a thermostatic overload inside (some?) doorbell
xformers designed to protect them from overheating and starting a fire
if the doorbell button sticks on - or there's a short in the secondary
side wiring.
The report says that those thermal overloads (which I expect break the
120 volt primary circuit.) cycle off and back on around once every seven
seconds and that the inductive spark at its contacts can propogate
through house wiring and cause flashes of interference on a tv or
"static clicks" in radios.
Who woulda thunk it?
I wonder how long that cycling mode would continue before those thermal
overload contacts got burned enough to stop connecting and leave an open
circuit there.
That's the second time I've made a mistake this year...Thank G_d it's
almost December. <G>
Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
I've got 3 different ones floating around - 12, 16, and 24 volts AC.
(They would work just as well on lower voltage DC)
PeterD
<the-dari...@wtf.net> wrote:
You're still an asshole...
KLS
<jim.r...@NOSPAMredelfs.com> wrote:
>You could have saved yourself a lot of time, effort and money by simply
>turning-off the transformer and removing the doorbell button. Let 'em
>KNOCK.
Nice idea, but there are situations where that just won't suffice:
what about people who live up on the third floor of a big house, or
who are deaf and need lights to flash when someone rings?
The Daring Dufas
I consider myself to be an actinic sphincter.
It sounds more professional. People who know
my mother call me SOB.
TDD
The Daring Dufas
Dang! Nobody seemed to get the little dig at Jeff.
What you will find are 6, 8, 10, 12, 16 and 24 volts
AC. Some really old stuff will be DC dry cell powered
but only if the owner wants to keep it original for
nostalgic or antique collecting purposes. Most of the
doorbell transformers I install have triple taps for
8, 16 and 24 volts. Many doorbells will need a 10 volt
transformer and if you need 24 volts to ring your ding
dong you're either deaf or have a seriously complicated
system. I have setup some serious systems for industrial
and commercial buildings by making use of the very loud
and fun to play with devices manufactured by Edwards
Signaling which now belongs to GE. My personal favorite:
TDD
Jim Redelfs
KLS <xym...@suds.com> wrote:
>> You could have saved yourself a lot of time, effort and money
>> by simply turning-off the transformer and removing the
>> doorbell button. Let 'em KNOCK.
> Nice idea
Thank-you.
> but there are situations where that just won't
> suffice: what about people who live up on the
> third floor of a big house
Post a sign: "Knock LOUDLY!"
> or who are deaf
Post a sign: "Knock REALLY LOUDLY!"
> and need lights to flash when someone rings?
That's a good question. How did these unfortunate people manage before
electricity? After all, it's doing WITHOUT all these annoying and
unnecessary conveniences that will save the planet.
Gawd, this is scary. You sad folks probably voted, too.
--
<sigh>
JR
Jim Redelfs
The Daring Dufas <the-dari...@wtf.net> wrote:
> My personal favorite:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5zkoow
Now THAT's my kind of "doorbell"!
Deaf people on the 10th floor and all the <ahem> "residents" of the
nearby cemetery will take notice.
--
:)
JR
The Daring Dufas
I had a friend who was having problems with
Bulgarians stealing the copper and aluminum
out of his small apartment complex. I took
a motion sensing floodlight and an Edwards
120 volt square fire horn which we installed
at the rear of the apartments. One night he
was awakened by the wonderfully loud obnoxious
sound of that horn accompanied by some equally
loud screams and cursing in the local Bulgarian
dialect. The next morning he found a lot of blood,
bits of dark flesh and torn black clothing on
the barbed wire fence. For some reason his losses
to the vandalizing thieves abated.
TDD
Red Green
news:lYmVk.66965$kh2....@bignews3.bellsouth.net:
> Jeff Wisnia wrote:
>> The Daring Dufas wrote:
>
>>>>
>>> I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
>>> division of the local power company. This was back when
>>> they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
>>> had to know something about electronics. They would get
>>> electronic interference complaints which were often traced
>>> to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
>>> one that many people don't even think of today.
>>>
>>> TDD
>>
>>
>> Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.
>>
>> If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that
>> a 60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on
>> it can cause interference at radio frequencies?
>>
>> Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
>> transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles
>> on nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? <G>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>
> According to the FCC Interference Handbook, defective doorbell
> transformers are often a source of interference to TVs and other
> household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer. I think
> it happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates.
Interference from a neighbors transformer is rampant in that when people
realize it uses 3 bucks of electricity a year to run they buy a couple
of hundred feet of copper cable and conduit (so it's code compliant) and
illegaly trench it to the neighbors power.
Red Green
> Craig M wrote:
>> That pulse can pack a pretty good hit, want to try something, flash a
>> 9 volt batt on the low voltage side of a doorbell transformer, and
>> feel what you get on the other side.
>> that pulse can back feed through the house wiring, and posiblilty zap
>> something else.
>> Thats all I was worried about.
>>
> I used to do that with a AA cell and a transformer made to energize
> two conductors of a telephone cable to light a dial. Occasionally I
> found an unsuspecting person to hold the plug.
>
> I also used to enjoy putting my tongue on the terminals of a 9 volt
> battery.
That was cool wasn't it! Did you also used to eat the paper paste in
kiddie school art class?
KLS
<jim.r...@NOSPAMredelfs.com> wrote:
>In article <n8gei49665vdmgsfj...@4ax.com>,
> KLS <xym...@suds.com> wrote:
>
>>> You could have saved yourself a lot of time, effort and money
>>> by simply turning-off the transformer and removing the
>>> doorbell button. Let 'em KNOCK.
>
>> Nice idea
>
>Thank-you.
>
>> but there are situations where that just won't
>> suffice: what about people who live up on the
>> third floor of a big house
>
>Post a sign: "Knock LOUDLY!"
>
>> or who are deaf
>
>Post a sign: "Knock REALLY LOUDLY!"
You must not know any deaf people personally. Your ignorance is
showing.
>> and need lights to flash when someone rings?
>
>That's a good question. How did these unfortunate people manage before
>electricity? After all, it's doing WITHOUT all these annoying and
>unnecessary conveniences that will save the planet.
They survived by being cut off from the world, basically, and
certainly not by choice.
hal...@aol.com
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:26:03 -0600, Jim Redelfs
>
>
>
>
>
> >In article <n8gei49665vdmgsfjo2vd7kqpcm21is...@4ax.com>,
> > KLS <xyme...@suds.com> wrote:
>
> >>> You could have saved yourself a lot of time, effort and money
> >>> by simply turning-off the transformer and removing the
> >>> doorbell button. �Let 'em KNOCK.
>
> >> Nice idea
>
> >Thank-you.
>
> >> but there are situations where that just won't
> >> suffice: what about people who live up on the
> >> third floor of a big house
>
> >Post a sign: �"Knock LOUDLY!"
>
> >> or who are deaf
>
> >Post a sign: �"Knock REALLY LOUDLY!"
>
> You must not know any deaf people personally. �Your ignorance is
> showing.
>
> >> and need lights to flash when someone rings? �
>
> >That's a good question. �How did these unfortunate people manage before
> >electricity? �After all, it's doing WITHOUT all these annoying and
> >unnecessary conveniences that will save the planet.
>
> They survived by being cut off from the world, basically, and
>
> - Show quoted text -
sad.........
you could install a small crank generator, to power whatever
annuciator you want.
or get a dog, our bell rarely rings, dog knows somone is coming before
they are near the house.
dog helps keep my feet warm at night.
always happy to see me arrive home.
often nicer and friendlier than my wife:(
val189
> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
> etc.
Nickel and dime stuff, not to mention the time you put into the
conversion.
Bill
Why are so many people getting upset that I am working to eliminate "vampire
loads" in my house and reduce my electric bill?
Anyway here are the facts about "vampire power" for those who are interested
in this (can be 5% of your electric bill and 75% of the power for electronic
things is used while the devices are turned off!)....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standby_power
The Daring Dufas
electronic devices, I worked in a TV repair
shop when television sets had tubes, not
just a picture tube but the whole freaking
chassis. The heat put out by an old tube
type TV set was enough to keep a small
house warm. There was a considerable wait
for the dinosaur video displays to come to
life because all those tubes had to warm up.
As a convenience feature, manufacturers
added a feature called "instant on". This
kept all those tube filaments warm with
partial power. I imagine the standby power
for the old sets would be enough to run more
than several modern televisions. One of the
TV manufacturers held a seminar in town for
all of their dealers where they showed off
the new line of televisions that had the new
fangled switching power supplies that allowed
a solid state transistorized TV to operate
on less than a hundred watts of power and when
the incoming line voltage dropped as low as 80
volts AC. It was an impressive demonstration
on that day 35 years ago.
TDD
Jim Redelfs
KLS <xym...@suds.com> wrote:
>> Post a sign: "Knock REALLY LOUDLY!"
> You must not know any deaf people personally.
Au contraire, my condescending "friend". He would find my approach to
this inane thread quite amusing.
> Your ignorance is showing.
You are mistaking cynicism for ignorance.
--
JR
Jim Redelfs
"Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This thread has seemed to hit a nerve!
More than one, to be sure.
> Why are so many people getting upset that I am working to eliminate
> "vampire loads" in my house and reduce my electric bill?
Since you finally revealed the motivation for your actions, I can
address it specifically: Your efforts, particularly with the doorbell
transformer switch, are misapplied.
If, instead of using the clothes dryer, you were to hang a couple or
three loads of laundry on a line to dry, you would save more money on
your electric bill than you would during a lifetime without so-called
"phantom" loads against your bill.
> Anyway here are the facts about "vampire power" for those
> who are interested in this
I couldn't care less about the vampire power consumption in my home.
The cost of such usage is the price I pay - WILLINGLY - for the
convenience of not worrying about such trivial and ridiculous things.
I cheerfully decline to unplug my cell phone charger between uses. That
the transformer powering my rarely used doorbell consumes power does not
concern me in the least.
My home is well insulated. My motor vehicles are sufficiently fuel
efficient for what they do for me. I turn off lights in unoccupied
rooms and turn down the thermostat (during heating season) during the
night and when the house is unoccupied. Likewise, I turn it up (during
the cooling season) under the same conditions.
I do not litter. I sparingly use the most benign, approved chemicals
that will do what I need.
With all of that done, I am content to ignore so-called "phantom" or
"vampire" energy consumption. It is, comparatively, such a miniscule
part of my total energy consumption, that I don't even think of it.
This silly thread has caused me to think of it and, in doing so, I am
even more convinced now that I am doing the right thing.
I appreciate your conservation efforts although I believe your time
would be more productive spent volunteering at a hospital or social
support organization.
If, after you have implemented all the "first tier" conservation
practices and improvements, you wish to further pursue the incredibly
minor conservation items, be my guest.
I thank God that I live in a country and society where you are free to
pursue such things. I further thank God that I am free to NOT do
likewise. I will always remain vigilant that such freedom continues
despite the ongoing efforts of those that would deny those freedoms.
Translation: I will vigorously oppose the day when a Doorbell
Transformer Switch is mandated by my government at any level.
Second translation: Stick a CF bulb in it and SCREW IT!
--
:)
JR
Rod Speed
> This thread has seemed to hit a nerve!
Nope, most are just rubbing your nose in your stupidity.
> Why are so many people getting upset that I am working to eliminate "vampire loads" in my house and reduce my electric
> bill?
No one is getting upset, just rubbing your nose in your stupidity.
> Anyway here are the facts about "vampire power" for those who are interested in this (can be 5% of your electric bill
> and 75% of the
> power for electronic things is used while the devices are turned off!)....
Not with a single doorbell, stupid.
And just replacing the transformer with a modern switch mode wall wart
will save almost all the power it currently uses, tho it still isnt cost efficient.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standby_power