OT: My personal test of 20 free offline Android gps map routing applications

[Danny D'Amico]

Wholly OT: I will respond to questions, and queries, but otherwise this
will be the only post on this topic for my friends on a.h.r who may be
interested in offline map routing programs.

I posted this to: alt.satellite.gps,alt.comp.freeware, & to
comp.mobile.android (which is a rather new newsgroup).

Here's my overall quick summary of 20 suggested free offline map apps:
(Please suggest any other offline map app you want tested!)

Top five *offline gps map routing Android free apps*:
1. MapFactor: Navigator, v1.0.35, Database = OSM
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator&hl=en
PRO: By far, the most logically intuitive GUI for an automotive GPS navigation system.
PRO: Has a businessrivate odometer which might be handy for tax purposes.
PRO: Search has options for nearest to map center, gps position, or destination.
PRO: Map view is easily switched between close, medium, and full-trip views.
PRO: Navigate easily allows waypoints to be enabled or disabled
CON: Does not speak road names (if it only had TTS, it would negate the need for OsmAnd~)
CON: Printed guidance at the bottom of the display is far too small for automotive use
CON: Enabling "Save as .GPX" crashed my phone every time it was enabled

2. F-Droid: OsmAnd~, v1.5-ARM (X-86 & MIPS builds exist), Database = OSM
https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=osmand~&fdid=net.osmand.plus
PRO: Speaks road names! (TTS) in addition to spoken directions (British English)
PRO: Users are encouraged to add their own POIs, addresses, and map improvements!
PRO: Opensource plugins are readily available to enhance functionality
PRO: Has an easy to use recording mode to save & replay your tracks
PRO: Buttons click when you type them in a search
CON: Can't route greater than 100 miles without waypoints (and it won't tell you that it won't)
CON: Crashes a *lot* on my stock Samsung Galaxy S3 (Android 4.3)
CON: Impossible to set a Favorite from the Favorites menu!
Con: Direction guidance annoyingly says "milly" & "millies" instead of "miles")

3. Aponia: Be-On-Road, v3.9.26239 Database = OSM
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=cz.aponia.bor3
PRO: Logical initial MAP display
PRO: Can find POIs that are along the route you've selected (more apps should have this!)
CON: Does not speak road names (TTS).
CON: Impossible to add a Favorite when in the Favorites menu!
CON: Impossible to change the name of a Favorite without first deleting it!
CON: Can't organize Favorites other than alphabetically!
IRK: Favorites=Map->Menu->POI->Favorites->FAVORITES->My POI->favorite
IRK: Menu->POI->Favorites->Favorites->My POI->SELECTION->Navigate

4. Geolife: NavFree USA, v2.1.17, Database = OSM
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.navfree.android.OSM.USA
PRO: Slick-looking GUI (but looks are deceptive)
CON: Does not speak road names (TTS)
CON: Impossible to add a Favorite when in the Favorites menu!
CON: Impossible to change the name of a Favorite without first deleting it!
CON: Miserable mechanism to rename favorites (basically it can't be done)
CON: Even after rebooting, and deleting, it wouldn't rename a favorite!
CON: Can't organize Favorites other than alphabetically!
CON: Adware is somewhat obtrusive (not horrid, but not good)
CON: POI search doesn't give street address (so they all look alike!)

5. Zoff, ZANavi, v2.0.19 (OSM maps)
http://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zoffcc.applications.zanavi&hl=en
PRO: Speaks American English TTS road names beautifully in addition to spoken directions
PRO: The road-name display is the easiest of them all to read (outside of Google Maps)
CON: User interface must have been written on Mars, it's that unintuitive!
CON: No concept of favorites (they only have "Recent Destinations")
CON: Only accepts GPS coordinates in degrees-minutes-seconds (not decimal degrees)
CON: Many features are half baked so I must consider this beta software

Backup programs *to make up for offline deficiencies* in the above apps:
A. Alk: CoPilot GPS free, v9.5.0.400 Database = Navteq
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.alk.copilot.mapviewer
PRO: One free Navteq map download is allowed (these maps are fantastic!)
PRO: Offline address search in Navteq maps works beautifully!
PRO: The Navteq POI even provides phone numbers
PRO: Logical initial MAP for a GPS navigation system.
PRO: Calculates alternative routes to destination.
PRO: Can easily drag route to change it as desired.
CON: Only one free Navteq map download is allowed.
CON: Voice guidance dies after 14 days (but the maps & routing still work in the crippleware)
IRK: Favorites=Map->Menu->Main Menu->My Places->Favorites

B. Google: Maps, v7.4.0 Database = Google
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.maps
PRO: Most accurate of all the maps; and fast drawing too!
PRO: Clearly shows the next turn and how far away it is.
PRO: Clearly shows each turn in sequence at any time.
CON: Directions and navigation are not available offline.
CON: Does not speak road names (TTS) when offline.
CON: Map cache tiling is not intuitive (typing "ok maps" for example)
CON: Can't create or change the route once you go offline.
CON: POIs & street addresses are not cached in the offline maps
HNT: Backup /sdcard/Android/data/com.google.android.apps.maps/cache/

Tested apps which *didn't make the top five* for a variety of reasons:
a. Sygic: GPS, v13.2.2 Uses TomTom maps
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sygic.aura
Note: Not freeware; so it shouldn't be on this list (7 day free trial only)
CON: After timing out, the program simply refused to run (so I deleted it)
PRO: POIs and street addresses are available offline
PRO: Phone numbers in POIs (and they're callable from the map app)
PRO: Locates POIs in the defined route, even offline.
CON: The next turn isn't shown until you're only a couple miles away!

b. MapsWithMe: Maps With Me Lite, OSM data
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapswithme.maps
PRO: I can't think of a single thing good about this program.
CON: Doesn't route; doesn't talk; doesn't do anything but show your postion.
CON: Crippleware does not have a search capability
CON: Half the icons on the front map don't work in the crippleware.
CON: Phones home by default unless you turn it off in the settings.

c. Telenav: Scout, v1.6.1.7610003
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.telenav.app.android.scout_us
Note: Complains "Unable to reach server"
Hint: Remove Sim card before installing & give it a bogus phone number.

d. CloudMade: MapDroyd, v2.0.4, OSM data
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.osa.android.mapdroyd
PRO: I can't think of anything good to say about this map application
CON: Really really really slow map drawing (I'm not sure why).
CON: Can't route; can't talk.

e. 66: Navigate 6, v5.13.46.DB3B2C1.73F9DB5
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.route66.maps5
Note: Uses TomTom maps; routing is not free & maps time out in 30 days

f. Prodevelop: gvSIG Mini Maps, v1.2.3
PRO: The route "to here" usability should be a nice feature
CON: The program crashed on me so many times I gave up.
CON: The maps wouldn't start downloading (and they were only tiles anyway)

g. Google Waze
PRO: Crowd-source up-to-date traffic information
CON: Does not work offline, so it was not tested

h. Mictale: GPS Essentials, v3.2.9
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mictale.gpsessentials
PRO: Automatically caches map tiles that you specifically have looked at.
PRO: Bills itself as the Swiss Army Knife of GPS applications
CON: You only see gray area for map tiles you haven't cached.
CON: Confusing interface. I just can't get it to do what I want.

i. Code Sector: Maverick Lite, v2.2, OSM & MapQuest & Microsoft & others
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.codesector.maverick.lite
PRO: Maps are great! (Microsoft & MapQuest at least)
PRO: Address search is pretty good but only works online.
PRO: Once you've found an address, you can auto-open in another program!
INF: It's good mapping software but I don't see any routing at all?
CON: Crippleware won't search POIs but will allow Lat/Lon entry.
CON: Won't save anything for future use other than saved wavepoints.
CON: Can't do an address search offline.
CON: Doesn't cache maps offline all that well (unreliable).

j. Ulmon, City Maps 2Go, v3.8.0.14, Database = OSM
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ulmon.android.citymaps2go&hl=en
PRO: The maps are readable and the POI search is easy to use
CON: Does not route! (Will only *show* your position on the map)
CON: Limited to 5 free maps but California itself has 58 counties!
CON: Crashed dozens of times on my Android 4.3 Samsung Galaxy S3

These *hiking apps* were tested off road off trail offline:
a. Google MyTracks, v2.0.5
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.maps.mytracks
PRO: Gorgeous and accurate topo maps
PRO: Tracks easily.
PRO: Exports KML nicely.
PRO: Nice distance, elevation, speed, time plots.
CON: Can't zoom to the level that you want to for off-trail hiking.

b. Atlogis, US Topo Maps Free, v1.1.0
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.atlogis.northamerica.free
PRO: You can pinch-zoom to the level that you need for offtrail hiking.
CON: Maps are older versions of USGS paper maps (not the newest versions).
CON: GUI for creating tracks and exporting them is not intuitive.

c. Asamm, Locus Free, v2.17.4
http://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=menion.android.locus
PRO: You can pinch-zoom to the level that you need for offtrail hiking.
PRO: Shows GPS coordinates at all times
CON: Ads are a bit intrusive compared to the other free offline maps

[SMS]

On 12/22/2013 10:48 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
> Wholly OT: I will respond to questions, and queries, but otherwise this
> will be the only post on this topic for my friends on a.h.r who may be
> interested in offline map routing programs.

<snip>

Nice job.

I decided to ante up for the paid version of
CoPilot when it was on sale (and it's on sale again now for $7 for USA
Premium).

One complaint I have about CoPilot is that while it speaks the street
names, it doesn't always speak the commonly used street name. I.e. I
once noticed that it told me to turn left on G2. No one calls the actual
road G2 (the county road number), it's Lawrence Expressway, and if you
asked 100 people where road G2 is probably only two or three would know.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_County_Routes_in_zone_G#G2>

[DerbyDad03]

Danny D'Amico <dan...@is.invalid> wrote:
> Wholly OT: I will respond to questions, and queries, but otherwise this
> will be the only post on this topic for my friends on a.h.r who may be
> interested in offline map routing programs.
>

...Lots of good info snipped...

Can you explain the purpose of an offline map routing program?

I use the Google Navigation app and my issue isn't data usage, it's how
badly the GPS sucks the life out of the battery.

What is the advantage of an offline navigation app?

BTW...I was in NYC for a business trip last year. While walking through
Central Park, I saw a sign for an app that allowed you to take a walking
tour of the park, with GPS. It opens with a map of the park, and when you
choose My Location it pinpoints where you are in the park, right down to
the walking path level. Well, a few months later SWMBO and I were walking
through a park while on vacation in California. We came to a T in the path
we weren't sure which way to go. I opened the Central Park app, which
opened with a map of Central Park, as expected. I tapped My Location and
the map changed to our exact location and we figured out which way to go.
Since that time I've used the app a number of times when walking in
unfamiliar locations.

[Art Todesco]

On 12/23/2013 6:56 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> Danny D'Amico <dan...@is.invalid> wrote:
>> Wholly OT: I will respond to questions, and queries, but otherwise this
>> will be the only post on this topic for my friends on a.h.r who may be
>> interested in offline map routing programs.
>>
> ...Lots of good info snipped...
>
> Can you explain the purpose of an offline map routing program?

Offline map routing is used if you don't have a data plan or you are in
an area with no cell service. You typically get the map before leaving,
using wifi.

>
> I use the Google Navigation app and my issue isn't data usage, it's how
> badly the GPS sucks the life out of the battery.

Yes, that's true. But that's what car chargers are used for. If I'm
going to use it for a long time, I plug in.

[Art Todesco]

Tried CoPilot and it really didn't match up with my way of use and
thinking. I've been using the google app in my android phone. I've
found that in many cases, they give several names of the streets,
including common name, state number, county number, etc. The only
complaint about the google app is that they changed the interface
without any notification. They uses to have a blue arrow icon which was
very easy and intuitive to use. One day it just .... disappeared. I
call Verizon because the google app was part of the original Verizon
load for the phone. They didn't even know about the change. Now,
google 'forces' you the use that maps icon, which was always there in
the pas, but is much more convoluted to get the same thing as before. I
rolled my app back to the original and have blocked future updates ....
maybe not a good idea, but it is sooooo nice, now to use it. BTW, we
just used it on a 600 mile trip/vacation from western NC to central FL.
We should have used it more, i.e. the times where we said, "oh yeah,
we know how to get there!" We got really lost trying to find an RV
campground in the south Atlanta area. Once we were there, we took the
car and went out shopping. The google app got us back with no trouble
... should have used it the 1st time. Of course, that not to say that
GPS apps are totally infallible. Any GPS app is just one more tool in
the toolbox.

[SMS]

On 12/23/2013 3:56 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> Danny D'Amico <dan...@is.invalid> wrote:
>> Wholly OT: I will respond to questions, and queries, but otherwise this
>> will be the only post on this topic for my friends on a.h.r who may be
>> interested in offline map routing programs.
>>
> ...Lots of good info snipped...
>
> Can you explain the purpose of an offline map routing program?
>
> I use the Google Navigation app and my issue isn't data usage, it's how
> badly the GPS sucks the life out of the battery.
>
> What is the advantage of an offline navigation app?

Data usage. Personally we have four Android phones on Verizon's network
and pay about $70 per month (total, not per phone). But the plans that
these phones are on don't come with a lot of data so we are careful with
data usage. Online mapping uses a tremendous amount of data.

Both online and offline use the GPS so battery life isn't different, but
the GPS does use a lot of power.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:04:54 -0800, SMS wrote:

> No one calls the actual road G2 (the county road number), it's
> Lawrence Expressway, and if you asked 100 people where road G2
> is probably only two or three would know.

Hi SMS,
Long time, no see. (Someday, we should meet, face to face,
mano e mano)...

Anyway ...

I know Lawrence Expressway rather well, having worked at NSM
in my earlier days, over by Kifer. I agree. Nobody would call
it G2, just like nobody in California seems to know what a
mile marker is nor what an exit number is (nor the direction
that all exits count in). They *do* call it "the" 101, though.
:)

Regarding the tools ...

That you sprung for CoPilot is interesting, as, it's the *only*
one tested worth paying for (IMHO), since, the Navteq maps are great;
and hthe POIs work offline nicely so do the phone numbers
integrate nicely with the phone (try that you dedicated portable
GPS units!); and the CoPilot routing allows easy alternates
from the start. You can even *drag* routes with your fingers!

The only thing lacking in the CoPilot freeware is the TTS and
Voice Guidance.

SMS:
I have one bit of confusion about CoPilot speech.
It seemed to me, that during my 14-day trial, it only spoke
spoken directions (i.e., turn left, turn right, etc.); but
not TTS road names (i.e., turn left onto G2, turn right onto
Lawrence Expressway, etc.).

Can you confirm that the payware CoPilot does both the spoken
directions (aka "voice guidance") and spoken street names
(aka Text-to-Speech)?

Danny

PS: The Pool Guys, in Saratoga, changed their chlorine policy
due to HASA changing the way they reimbursed them ... (I tried
to hail you on that when it happened.) It's now buy 6 gallons,
get two free (plus coupon incentives). FYI ...

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 09:19:51 -0500, Art Todesco wrote:

> I've been using the google app in my android phone. I've
> found that in many cases, they give several names of the streets,
> including common name, state number, county number, etc.

Google Maps is fantastic, *if* you have a data plan
(and if you're traveling too far out in the boonies)!

Google Maps stink, if you don't have a data plan.
a) It's a pain to download tiles for offline use
b) They only last 30 days before Google deletes them
c) Even so, the program won't route offline
d) And it won't find POIs offline

So, I still recommend Google Maps for offline use, mainly for
the accuracy; but, it's only useful if you thought ahead enough
to download the tiles where you'll be away from data (which, for
me, is at the end of my driveway).

On the topic of usability, if you have a data plan, Google Maps
is very usable. The display is large and intuitive. About the
only thing missing is the ability to easily force it to remind
you about your next turn, even if it's 25 miles away, at the touch
of a button, like the dedicated GPS Nav apps do.

> The google app got us back with no trouble

> Of course, that not to say that GPS apps are totally infallible.
> Any GPS app is just one more tool in the toolbox.

Understood.

Note that you clearly have a data plan (I don't); so, I would
ask you what you use when you get too far from cellular signals?
Of course, you'll say paper maps - which I agree with - but, what
I'm saying is that these offline apps are still useful just in
case you go out of your carrier's signal area.

If you needed to download just one app for offline use, I'd
suggest CoPilot, but, since you don't like it, I'd suggest
MapFactor as your backup for when you don't have data signals.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:56:26 +0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> Can you explain the purpose of an offline map routing program?

To do map routing when (a) you don't have a data plan, or (b) when
you're far from a cellular signal.

I don't have a data plan on my cell phone.

So I have to be a bit more clever about how to get my map
directions once I get passed, oh, about the end of my driveway.

> I use the Google Navigation app and my issue isn't data usage,
> it's how badly the GPS sucks the life out of the battery.

Agreed. GPS sucks that power, making my phone hot!

I have to keep my Samsung Galaxy S3 on the cigarette lighter
3.1 Amp dual-port USB charger when the GPS is turned on; otherwise,
that puny battery is dead within a couple of hours.

> What is the advantage of an offline navigation app?

Only two that I can think of:
a) Works for people (like me) who don't have a data plan
b) Works when you're out in the boondocks

> Since that time I've used the app a number of times when walking in
> unfamiliar locations.

You have to try the Google "My Tracks" hiking app! It's really
nice for topographical hikes, like those SMS and I have out here
in the mountains.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 09:00:42 -0500, Art Todesco wrote:

>> Can you explain the purpose of an offline map routing program?
>
> Offline map routing is used if you don't have a data plan or you are in
> an area with no cell service. You typically get the map before leaving,
> using wifi.

Yup. He said it better than I did.

Luckily, for almost all the offline apps, the entire state of California
is a single one-time download.

There's one other advantage, but it's not due to the offline nature.
Most of the offline-map programs are OSM.
OSM maps can be modified by you.
If you like tinkering with your maps, maybe the OSM maps are the way to go.

>> I use the Google Navigation app and my issue isn't data usage, it's how
>> badly the GPS sucks the life out of the battery.
> Yes, that's true. But that's what car chargers are used for.

Indeed. I researched car chargers, and, after testing a few, I only
suggest the dual-port 3.1 Amp chargers. You can't go by price (e.g.,
Apple single-port 2.1 Amp chargers cost twice what I paid for my 3.1
Amp dual-port charger).

The reason for the funny amperage numbers is that an Ipad takes 2.1
Amps while most heavy duty smart phones take about 700mA to about 1 Amp.

So, a 3.1 Amp charger is typically a 2.1 Amp port plus a 1 Amp port.

Caveat: Watch out when you buy the USB car charger. The lousy ones
are really sneaky about how they define the amperage as "total"
amperage, which means that, even if it has two ports, you can't
get the advertised amperage unless you use only one of those two
ports and leave the other one empty.

As always, price is no indication of quality. You have to know
what you are buying ... caveat emptor.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 08:27:26 -0800, SMS wrote:

>> What is the advantage of an offline navigation app?
>

> Data usage.

> Online mapping uses a tremendous amount of data.

This is a good point, which, I, not having a data plan (and therefore,
never having worried about data usage), didn't realize until you had
said that.

Q: Why bother with offline GPS freeware mapping programs?
A: Saves on data usage if you don't have an unlimited data plan.
A: Works when you have no data plan.
A: Works when you have no cellular signal.

Q: What's the disadvantage of offline free GPS mapping programs?
A: You have to be more clever about your choices.
A: You have to download the state (or country) map online.
A: Most aren't as accurate as Google Maps is.
A: Most aren't as easy to use as Google Maps is.

Q: What's the advantage of these GPS mapping applications?
A: Some have features that Google Maps doesn't have.
For example,
A: Some can search in the direction of the destination.
A: Some allow dragging of routes & alternate route choices
A: Almost all have more settings than does Google Maps
A: Most display more information than does Google Maps
(although Google Maps has perhaps the most intuitive display)
A: Some (e.g., Sygic) have really really pretty displays!

Having said that, Google Maps is the standard by which all
offline map programs must be compared, even as Google Maps
is almost useless offline, except as preloaded static tiles.

[The Real Bev]

On 12/23/2013 10:36 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:56:26 +0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>> Can you explain the purpose of an offline map routing program?
>
> To do map routing when (a) you don't have a data plan, or (b) when
> you're far from a cellular signal.
>
> I don't have a data plan on my cell phone.

If you don't use the phone much, T-Mobile gives you a pre-paid plan for
$10/year which gives you ~30 additional minutes which roll over every
year once you've bought $100 worth of time. Talkatone gives you VOIP to
any ordinary phone as long as you have wifi (that doesn't block VOIP, of
course). Not good for compulsive babblers, of course, but perfect for
people who only make "I'll be there in 5 minutes, don't leave" etc.
calls. I've got something like 700 minutes and I'll get 30 more in
February. My greatest fear is that T-Mobile will be absorbed by
somebody who eliminates the $10 plan :-(

> So I have to be a bit more clever about how to get my map
> directions once I get passed, oh, about the end of my driveway.
>
>> I use the Google Navigation app and my issue isn't data usage,
>> it's how badly the GPS sucks the life out of the battery.
>
> Agreed. GPS sucks that power, making my phone hot!
>
> I have to keep my Samsung Galaxy S3 on the cigarette lighter
> 3.1 Amp dual-port USB charger when the GPS is turned on; otherwise,
> that puny battery is dead within a couple of hours.

I can run GPS on my BLU Dash 4.5 all day. I hate seeing remaining
battery power less than 50%, but it's not a problem as long as I can
recharge it overnight.

Worst problem is the minimal internal storage and refusal to use the
external card to store/run apps :-(

>> What is the advantage of an offline navigation app?
>
> Only two that I can think of:
> a) Works for people (like me) who don't have a data plan
> b) Works when you're out in the boondocks
>
>> Since that time I've used the app a number of times when walking in
>> unfamiliar locations.
>
> You have to try the Google "My Tracks" hiking app! It's really
> nice for topographical hikes, like those SMS and I have out here
> in the mountains.

I tried using that, but it seemed to drop out quite a bit. 'GPS Status'
seems to help maintain GPS contact, as well as showing which satellites
are being used, but I have no explanation for why that might be.

Real nuisance to have to wait for the first fix, which takes between 2
and 5 minutes :-(

--
Cheers, Bev
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However,
this is not necessarily a good idea...."

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:04:54 -0800, SMS wrote:

> I decided to ante up for the paid version of
> CoPilot when it was on sale (and it's on sale again now
> for $7 for USA Premium).

I just opened up my CoPilot trialware which confirmed
your $7 "Holiday Sale" but I have a question, being a frugal
consumer.

The offer doesn't explicitly state "TTS" (text to speech)
road names. It talks about "voice guidance".

In the past, I've been burned by buying, for example, the
Magellan Roadmate, which had the one but not the other; and
I had to buy a Garmin nüvi just to get both.

So, I learned, if the box does not explicitly state TTS
spoken street names, then the "voice guidance" isn't as useful.

Having said that, here's the exact words of the offer, which,
to me, imply they don't have TTS spoken road names for that $7.

Worse yet, they "imply" that the $7 is for a one-year license
only - albeit - I have to infer that from the blurb below ...

--- begin verbatim --- transcribed off my Android phone ---
Holiday Sale - Up to 30% off CoPilot
Start the New Year Headed in the Right Direction!
Wherever you or your loved ones are driving in 2014,
CoPilot's got you covered. With quality offline maps stored
on your phone/tablet, and clear turn-by-turn directions,
you cna navigate safely into the New Year.

30% off select CoPilot Premium apps from now until
January 6th!

CoPilot GPS customers - Get 30% off (that's just $6.99!)
unlimited use of voice-guided, turn-by-turn navigation and
3D maps from now until January 6th!

Happy Holidays
--- end verbatim --- transcribed off my Android phone ---

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:14:40 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

> If you don't use the phone much, T-Mobile gives you a pre-paid plan for
> $10/year which gives you ~30 additional minutes which roll over every
> year once you've bought $100 worth of time.

I've had that T-Mobile plan in the past, and it's pretty good.

In fact, I had Verizon for my first (analog) phone, and, used
Verizon for years - that is - until they thought it was funny
to restart my 2-year contract under different terms simply
because I had a broken phone swapped out under their repair
plan.

So, I had moved to AT&T - whom I had for a few years - until they
thought it was funny to charge me for a data plan I didn't want on
what they arbitrarily call a smart phone.

So, I moved to T-Mobile, and have been using them ever since,
without a data plan, and buying my smart phones on the net. I've
studied them extensively, and know exactly which Android phones
are the best value under $200 total cost brand new, taking into
account variant system memory, RAM, display, and CPU power:
- Nexus 4 (at the $200 price drop)
- Moto G (orders taking now)
- LG Optimus L9
- LG Optimus F3

T-Mobile also allows automatic WiFi calling when you're at
home, but you need a good antenna inside the house (which is
the topic of a different thread on alt.internet.wireless that
I'll tell you the punch line, which is the Ubiquiti UniFy
access point:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=a9_sc_1?rh=i%3Aelectronics%2Ck%3Aunifi+access+point&keywords=unifi+access+point&ie=UTF8&qid=1387842268

> Talkatone gives you VOIP to any ordinary phone as long
> as you have wifi

I have Talkatone but the only time *I* use it is when
my niece, studying overseas, uses it to call from her
cell phone to mine. College kids always know how to save
money!

> My greatest fear is that T-Mobile will be absorbed by
> somebody who eliminates the $10 plan :-(

When I switched from AT&T to T-Mobile, I was worried AT&T
would swallow T-Mobile and we'd lose the ability to to not
have to have a data plan!

[sms]

On 12/23/2013 10:17 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:04:54 -0800, SMS wrote:
>
>> No one calls the actual road G2 (the county road number), it's
>> Lawrence Expressway, and if you asked 100 people where road G2
>> is probably only two or three would know.
>
> Hi SMS,
> Long time, no see. (Someday, we should meet, face to face,
> mano e mano)...
>
> Anyway ...
>
> I know Lawrence Expressway rather well, having worked at NSM
> in my earlier days, over by Kifer. I agree. Nobody would call
> it G2, just like nobody in California seems to know what a
> mile marker is nor what an exit number is (nor the direction
> that all exits count in). They *do* call it "the" 101, though.
> :)

I was at NSM for many years too, 1993-2000. And I never use "the." I'm
not from Southern California.

> SMS:
> I have one bit of confusion about CoPilot speech.
> It seemed to me, that during my 14-day trial, it only spoke
> spoken directions (i.e., turn left, turn right, etc.); but
> not TTS road names (i.e., turn left onto G2, turn right onto
> Lawrence Expressway, etc.).

Interesting you should mention that because I found that on my tablet it
speaks street names and my phone it doesn't. I need to check that again
as perhaps a recent update removed the TTS.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 09:00:42 -0500, Art Todesco <acto...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 12/23/2013 6:56 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> Danny D'Amico <dan...@is.invalid> wrote:
>>> Wholly OT: I will respond to questions, and queries, but otherwise this
>>> will be the only post on this topic for my friends on a.h.r who may be
>>> interested in offline map routing programs.
>>>
>> ...Lots of good info snipped...
>>
>> Can you explain the purpose of an offline map routing program?
>
>Offline map routing is used if you don't have a data plan or you are in
>an area with no cell service. You typically get the map before leaving,
>using wifi.

I just discovered (having driven 600mi yesterday) that even on-line
routing doesn't require cell service the entire route. It seems to
download the maps needed for the entire trip at the beginning. My
cell phone doesn't connect to the data network when it's plugged into
USB. I didn't pay attention and plugged in the power before waiting
for it to connect to the cell network so didn't have a data connection
all day. I still had navigation the entire trip, though.

>>
>> I use the Google Navigation app and my issue isn't data usage, it's how
>> badly the GPS sucks the life out of the battery.
>Yes, that's true. But that's what car chargers are used for. If I'm
>going to use it for a long time, I plug in.

Sure. The more the phone does, the more power it sucks down. Data
service and the display are big power consumers. My phone won't last
a half hour in navigation mode if it's not connected to power.

>> What is the advantage of an offline navigation app?

Doesn't require *any* data connection. The maps are self-contained,
just like a stand-alone GPS unit.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:27:24 -0500, krw wrote:

> I still had navigation the entire trip, though

What program were you using for that navigation?

If it was Google Maps, it can route, if you start with routing,
but it can't change that route, nor do a POI or address search
once you're on the route.

If it's some other program, it might have the state map already
downloaded, which is what all the offline programs do.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:27:24 -0500, krw wrote:

> The more the phone does, the more power it sucks down. Data
> service and the display are big power consumers. My phone won't last
> a half hour in navigation mode if it's not connected to power.

Hmmm... I didn't realize data service consumes power.

Are you sure about that?

Certainly, on my Samsung Galaxy S3, the GPS consumes the power
so much that the battery won't last 2 hours with GPS running
and no external source of power.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:27:24 -0500, krw wrote:

>>> What is the advantage of an offline navigation app?
>
> Doesn't require *any* data connection.
> The maps are self-contained,
> just like a stand-alone GPS unit.

Yup!

In a couple of years, I can't imagine Garmin, TomTom, & Magellan
still selling tons of dedicated GPS units.

They'll need to either go where the money is (e.g., aviation,
military, commercial, automotive assembly, etc.), or, write
kick-butt Android/iPhone apps.

I can imagine the marketing guys saying "We don't want to go
the way of Kodak, now do we?" ...

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 16:04:20 -0800, sms wrote:

> I was at NSM for many years too, 1993-2000. And I never use "the." I'm
> not from Southern California.

I was in building D. I won't say no' more, otherwise the NSA will be
on to me ... Too bat TI took 'em over ... and Burr Brown ... sigh.
All the analog icons ... dead. Turned into CAD departments. :)

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 16:04:20 -0800, sms wrote:

> Interesting you should mention that because I found that on my tablet it
> speaks street names and my phone it doesn't. I need to check that again
> as perhaps a recent update removed the TTS.

Interesting.

I scanned the CoPilot advertisement, and, it *might* be that you have
to pay *twice* to get *both* the spoken directions and street names.

It seems, but I'm not sure, that the spoken directions come first,
and, then, if you pay more? ... Then you get the spoken street names.

It's all so confusing ...

What I *do* know is that, in my first 14 days of testing CoPilot on
Android, it did NOT speak street names. It only spoke directions.

voice guidance => turn left in 500 feet
TTS => turn left in 500 feet onto Lawrence Expressway

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 01:51:12 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:27:24 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> I still had navigation the entire trip, though
>
>What program were you using for that navigation?

The Google (I think) app that comes on my (Verizon) Droid Razr.

>If it was Google Maps, it can route, if you start with routing,
>but it can't change that route, nor do a POI or address search
>once you're on the route.

I checked the route beforehand and knew where I was going. No need to
update it. Well, until I got is "lost" out in the middle of Southern
Illinois. Dumb program! YOY do they even *think* about routing
people, driving cross-country, down one-lane county cow paths?!

>If it's some other program, it might have the state map already
>downloaded, which is what all the offline programs do.

No, just the normal maps. I was worried about losing data connection
in the middle. Turns out that it doesn't matter if you're not
changing anything. The point being that "online" navigation isn't as
fragile as I (and many others, I'm sure) suspected. It works quite
well (above exception noted).

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 01:52:16 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:27:24 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> The more the phone does, the more power it sucks down. Data
>> service and the display are big power consumers. My phone won't last
>> a half hour in navigation mode if it's not connected to power.
>
>Hmmm... I didn't realize data service consumes power.

>Are you sure about that?

Sure, if it's transferring data, it's consuming power. The processor
is also working harder.

>Certainly, on my Samsung Galaxy S3, the GPS consumes the power
>so much that the battery won't last 2 hours with GPS running
>and no external source of power.

GPS, alone, shouldn't take that much power. My next phone (probably
at the end of next month) will be a RAZR MAXX, for that reason,
though.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 01:54:06 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:27:24 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>>>> What is the advantage of an offline navigation app?
>>
>> Doesn't require *any* data connection.
>> The maps are self-contained,
>> just like a stand-alone GPS unit.
>
>Yup!
>
>In a couple of years, I can't imagine Garmin, TomTom, & Magellan
>still selling tons of dedicated GPS units.
>
>They'll need to either go where the money is (e.g., aviation,
>military, commercial, automotive assembly, etc.), or, write
>kick-butt Android/iPhone apps.

Already been done.

>I can imagine the marketing guys saying "We don't want to go
>the way of Kodak, now do we?" ...

Any company, if it doesn't reinvent itself will go that way. The
question is when, and are they willing to compete against themselves
(and their sacred, i.e. milk, cows) to delay the inevitable.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 21:19:52 -0500, krw wrote:

> My next phone (probably
> at the end of next month) will be a RAZR MAXX, for that reason,
> though.

I'm gonna buy the Moto G, for a nephew, for a belated
Christmas gift.

The only thing I don't like about it is that it
doesn't have an external SD card slot.

Sigh... Google.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 21:23:57 -0500, krw wrote:

>>They'll need to either go where the money is (e.g., aviation,
>>military, commercial, automotive assembly, etc.), or, write
>>kick-butt Android/iPhone apps.
>
> Already been done.

Well then, we should all short the Garmin (et. al.) stock!

:)

[The Real Bev]

On 12/23/2013 03:50 PM, Danny D. wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:14:40 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> If you don't use the phone much, T-Mobile gives you a pre-paid plan for
>> $10/year which gives you ~30 additional minutes which roll over every
>> year once you've bought $100 worth of time.
>
> I've had that T-Mobile plan in the past, and it's pretty good.

Except for the coverage :-( Minimal inside my house (sometimes none),
but OK out in front of my neighbor's house. Perfect, right?
Fortunately I don't need it at home. Also nothing on my favorite ski
slope, although my friend's Verizon works fine. Oh well.

> In fact, I had Verizon for my first (analog) phone, and, used
> Verizon for years - that is - until they thought it was funny
> to restart my 2-year contract under different terms simply
> because I had a broken phone swapped out under their repair
> plan.
>
> So, I had moved to AT&T - whom I had for a few years - until they
> thought it was funny to charge me for a data plan I didn't want on
> what they arbitrarily call a smart phone.

I canceled AT&T LD when they wanted to charge me for NOT using it.
Ultimately we canceled their land line and bought an Ooma device. Screw
you, AT&T. Been a long time since you were a reputable organization.
Decades.

> So, I moved to T-Mobile, and have been using them ever since,
> without a data plan, and buying my smart phones on the net. I've
> studied them extensively, and know exactly which Android phones
> are the best value under $200 total cost brand new, taking into
> account variant system memory, RAM, display, and CPU power:
> - Nexus 4 (at the $200 price drop)

I think I rejected Nexi because of missing external SDcard slot.
Probably a bad mistake.

> - Moto G (orders taking now)
> - LG Optimus L9
> - LG Optimus F3

I always thought LG was cheesy. Is this a mistake too?

> T-Mobile also allows automatic WiFi calling when you're at

> home, but you need a good antenna inside the house(which is

> the topic of a different thread on alt.internet.wireless that
> I'll tell you the punch line, which is the Ubiquiti UniFy
> access point:
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=a9_sc_1?rh=i%3Aelectronics%2Ck%3Aunifi+access+point&keywords=unifi+access+point&ie=UTF8&qid=1387842268
>
>> Talkatone gives you VOIP to any ordinary phone as long
>> as you have wifi
>
> I have Talkatone but the only time *I* use it is when

Not much use for it since all the people I know have free LD and would
let me use their phone if I had to make an LD call. Good on vacation,
though.

> my niece, studying overseas, uses it to call from her
> cell phone to mine. College kids always know how to save
> money!

I knew somebody who was friends with Captain Crunch.

>> My greatest fear is that T-Mobile will be absorbed by
>> somebody who eliminates the $10 plan :-(
>
> When I switched from AT&T to T-Mobile, I was worried AT&T
> would swallow T-Mobile and we'd lose the ability to to not
> have to have a data plan!

I really hate AT&T.

--
Cheers, Bev
========================================================
If I gave a shit, you'd be the first one I'd give it to.

[k...@attt.bizz]

There's that but worse, the Droid Razr doesn't have a replaceable
battery. It's only a couple of years, but still.

>Sigh... Google.

Indeed.

[k...@attt.bizz]

I certainly wouldn't own stock in a company that's lost it's primary
market. Only a few have recovered.

[Art Todesco]

Yes I have finally moved into the 2000s (this year) with a data plan. I
also do a little RV traveling, emphasis on little, and it comes in handy
when RV parks don't have wifi. I even used it at the Disney World
campground, even though I had one of their cable modems while staying
there, because I wanted to return the modem a day early so I didn't have
a lot to do on the last day there. I use an app to allow my laptop to
use the data plan via wifi. As for the Google app, I once set up a
destination which was about 20 miles away, up a mountain. It routed ok
because I was at the base of the mountain and had a cell signal, albeit
weak. But as I drove up the mountain, I lost the cell signal and, as
you indicated couldn't complete the route. But, once I approached the
town near the destination, it found a cell and completed with no
problem. As you indicated, you are at the mercy of having a cell
signal. The good thing is that when traveling, cell service is usually
quite good on the interstates, even though a half mile or so off the
interstate, there might be almost no cell signal in some areas. BTW, my
navigator (wife) likes to have a map of every area we go. I don't
usually bother. And, the reason we got lost trying to find an RV park
was because it looked so easy on the paper map ... should have used the
GPS, even if only a backup for 'paper' knowledge. That said, there are
plenty of RV campgrounds that have a statement in their ads that read
something like, "don't use GPS to get here, you'll get lost!"

[SMS]

I was in building 16 (gone) and then building M (which almost no one has
heard of but it's still there). The strangest building was the back part
of Home Depot, but they finally got rid of that as well.

[SMS]

On 12/23/2013 10:53 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 08:27:26 -0800, SMS wrote:
>
>>> What is the advantage of an offline navigation app?
>>
>> Data usage.
>> Online mapping uses a tremendous amount of data.
>
> This is a good point, which, I, not having a data plan (and therefore,
> never having worried about data usage), didn't realize until you had
> said that.
>
> Q: Why bother with offline GPS freeware mapping programs?
> A: Saves on data usage if you don't have an unlimited data plan.
> A: Works when you have no data plan.
> A: Works when you have no cellular signal.

When traveling outside the U.S., where data roaming is extremely
expensive and even prepaid SIM card data is expensive, it's really nice
to have an offline GPS mapping program where you can download maps for
the area you're traveling in (even if the maps aren't free). Even if
you're not driving in these other countries, and traveling by some other
means, a mapping app is very useful, especially when you're not on a
gawd-awful organized tour.

Incidentally, that's one reason to be selective when choosing a tablet.
The Wi-Fi only iPads don't have a GPS chip, nor do the el-cheapo Android
tablets sold in drugstores for $79 or so. But once you reach the $129
level you can get Android tablets with a GPS. The Nexus 7 has one. The
Asus MeMo has one. We also have two $109 Lenovo tablets that have one. A
7" tablet is also a much nicer GPS replacement when driving than a 3.5"
screen phone. On one vehicle I installed a holder for my Nexus 7 using a
Panavise mount
<http://www.panavise.com/index.html?pageid=1&id1=30&--wosectionsdatarq=30&indashaction=-->,
some plastic from Tap Plastics, and some bits of hardware. No suction cups!

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 07:50:45 -0500, Art Todesco <acto...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I just found that this isn't true, at least for Verizon's Google(?)
app. As long as you don't change the routing, it's fine. I've been
routed through the boonies before but never lost navigation. I
thought I had data coverage in the middle of nowhere but probably had
the same thing then.

>The good thing is that when traveling, cell service is usually
>quite good on the interstates, even though a half mile or so off the
>interstate, there might be almost no cell signal in some areas. BTW, my
>navigator (wife) likes to have a map of every area we go. I don't
>usually bother. And, the reason we got lost trying to find an RV park
>was because it looked so easy on the paper map ... should have used the
>GPS, even if only a backup for 'paper' knowledge. That said, there are
>plenty of RV campgrounds that have a statement in their ads that read
>something like, "don't use GPS to get here, you'll get lost!"

My wife can't read a map. I don't bother with them anymore because
the GPS apps are so good. With the GPS of a decade ago, I could
believe them. Not so much anymore.

[Nate Nagel]

GPS systems are getting better, but the maps are still quite inaccurate
in some areas.

"online" maps like Google or even Waze's crowdsourced stuff is better,
but even then there can be problems e.g. I had an issue trying to find a
local store because Bing search results for that store had a nonexistent
street name for the address and instead of Waze coughing it sent me to
the geographic center of that zip code.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 12:51:24 -0500, Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net>
wrote:

That statement implies that they all get their information from the
same place, which is nonsense.

>"online" maps like Google or even Waze's crowdsourced stuff is better,
>but even then there can be problems e.g. I had an issue trying to find a
>local store because Bing search results for that store had a nonexistent
>street name for the address and instead of Waze coughing it sent me to
>the geographic center of that zip code.

When we were house hunting (couple of years ago), several of the
mapping companies couldn't find various houses (including the one we
were/are selling). The free Verizon app found them all.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 07:50:45 -0500, Art Todesco wrote:

> Yes I have finally moved into the 2000s (this year) with a data plan.

I've got nothing against data plans, but, I'm retired, and spend
99% of my time at home, where I have WiFi.

So, I have all the data I want, except when driving, and I have free
unlimited minutes in effect, because of automatic WiFi calling.

> I use an app to allow my laptop to use the data plan via wifi.

Hmmm... I didn't think you need an app to use WiFi data.

> As you indicated, you are at the mercy of having a cell signal.

That's why I think everyone should, at least, put CoPilot on
their cellphone, even if they do have a data plan. Or Navigator.

Either one will work fine if/when they're out of cellular signal.

> BTW, my navigator (wife) likes to have a map of every area we go.

I recently asked AAA if they still give out maps and the guy
told me he didn't notice any change in the number of maps
sent out. I've got the entire state of California covered,
but, they're all (still) brand new.

> "don't use GPS to get here, you'll get lost!"

Heh heh ... GPS is like following the leader. If you know
better, don't follow. Otherwise, if you don't have a clue,
then follow at your own risk.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 00:24:01 -0500, krw wrote:

> the Droid Razr doesn't have a replaceable
> battery. It's only a couple of years, but still.

That's criminal. I always faulted the iPhone for that.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:58:28 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

> I canceled AT&T LD when they wanted to charge me for NOT using it.
> Ultimately we canceled their land line and bought an Ooma device.

Heh heh ... I have an Ooma also. It's nice. I even googled for
the cheapest 911 zip code so that I could pay only the $3.71/month
tax for life instead of the $5 or so that it is for the Silicon
Valley.

The only problem with the Ooma is that I get my Internet over
the air, and, unfortunately, my "jitter" is greater than 9ms,
so, every once in a while, the conversation gets funky.

But, the wife calls Germany all the time, & at 2 cents a minute
(for landlines anyway), it's just the same as Skype but she gets
to use a real telephone with Ooma (instead of a Skype phone).

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:58:28 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

> I think I rejected Nexi because of missing external SDcard slot.
> Probably a bad mistake.

It's a trade off. I wish Google would just put the
SDcard slot in, and then it would be a no brainer.

But, apparently they want to push you toward their
cloud services.

Sometimes a card slot isn't as useful as you would think
though, simply because some apps (and cellular providers)
force certain apps to run from system memory.

But, I found that this free app is pretty good at
moving things from system memory to the SDcard:
Advanced SD Card Manager

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:58:28 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

> I always thought LG was cheesy. Is this a mistake too?

These <$200 LG phones are pretty good bang for the buck,
but, they won't/can't compete with the $400 phones.

So, from that perspective, these LG phones are "cheesy".
especially since most people still probably get their phones
under contract, so, they don't physically "see" the $400 price
tag, per se, of the smarter phones.

But I buy my phones outright, and use them as gifts, and,
I've found you can't get a usable combination of the key
things you need at lower than the $200 price tag:
- You want at the very least a 1GHz single CPU
- You want at the very least 1GB of system memory
- You want at the very least 1/2GB of RAM
- You want at least an 800x400 pixel display
- You want at the very least a 4.X Android OS

Of course, for all those things, more is better; but,
I've found (through experience) that, if you go below
a single one of those minimums, you'll have problems
with the phone running apps.

The cheapest you can get a phone that meets *those*
minimums is about $179 (plus tax/shipping) so that's
what I call a $200 phone.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 12:09:44 -0500, krw wrote:

> I just found that this isn't true, at least for Verizon's Google(?)
> app. As long as you don't change the routing, it's fine.

With Google Maps, I've experienced the same thing on T-Mobile.

If you don't touch the phone after beginning the route on WiFi,
then it routes just fine, even if you have no data.

But, of course, you can't change anything so, it's a gamble
even on short trips. Since CoPilot or Navigator will work
as well, it's not really worth the risk, although I must
admit, the Google Map GUI is beautifully clear, if not all
that informative - and - the maps are the most accurate out
there (although the CoPilot Navteq maps are accurate too).

It's the OSM maps, that most of the freeware uses, that isn't
all that accurate; but in a few years, it might rival Google
Maps in accuracy.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 08:19:42 -0800, SMS wrote:

> When traveling outside the U.S., where data roaming is extremely
> expensive and even prepaid SIM card data is expensive, it's really nice
> to have an offline GPS mapping program where you can download maps for
> the area you're traveling in (even if the maps aren't free).

This is a good point.

Luckily, the free OSM maps seem to cover the world, so, the many
free OSM routing apps would only need a GPS signal to work
anywhere in the world, for free.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 08:19:42 -0800, SMS wrote:

> Panavise mount
> <http://www.panavise.com/index.html?pageid=1&id1=30&--wosectionsdatarq=30&indashaction=-->,
> some plastic from Tap Plastics, and some bits of hardware. No suction cups!

Hi Steve,
I love that Tap Plastics store on Blossom Hill Road, in San Jose.
Soon, we'll be using a 3D printing shop, to make our assorted parts!
:)

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 09:20:21 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:

> the current draw while running Waze or
> Trapster in vehicle mode (screen always on) was more than the charge
> current from the car charger.

Hi Nate,
I see you've replaced that phone, but, that's exactly why I recommend
the dual-port 3.1 Amp USB car chargers.

One port is 2.1 Amps (strange number is due to the iPad requirement);
and the other port is 1 Amp.

In my experience, most smartphones nowadays will outstrip their charger
once you get lower than about 850mA, and, it's very important to note
that the USB standard is only 500mA.

So, if your car charger doesn't actually *say* it's 1Amp, it's probably
only about 500mA, which is far too low (IMHO) for a smart phone.

So I don't doubt your results.

Bear in mind, in my experience looking at every USB car charger I
could find in stores (mostly Frys), if they don't say what their
current is, then they're 500mA. If they say the amperage, but don't
say how much is in each slot, then you can really only get that
amperage out of only one slot at a time.

And, if they say just the watts (which is the amperage times the
5 volts), then usually they're very low because wattage sounds
bigger than amperage.

In the end, since they're all 5 volts, the *amperage* you can get
out of *each slot* (at the same time!) is what you want to aim for.

The funny thing is that it doesn't cost more to get a better charger,
other than the time to make the selection based on the amperage.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 12:09:44 -0500, krw wrote:

> My wife can't read a map. I don't bother with them anymore because
> the GPS apps are so good. With the GPS of a decade ago, I could
> believe them. Not so much anymore.

Even with a paper map, what I love about GPS is that it tells you
*where* you are.

Once you know where you are, that's half the problem set.

Sometimes on a paper map, it's even easier to plan a route
(because you can see more of the area than on a phone screen).

Of course, the map has to be folded back, while driving ... :)

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 21:05:30 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 12:09:44 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> My wife can't read a map. I don't bother with them anymore because
>> the GPS apps are so good. With the GPS of a decade ago, I could
>> believe them. Not so much anymore.
>
>Even with a paper map, what I love about GPS is that it tells you
>*where* you are.
>
>Once you know where you are, that's half the problem set.

You bet! It's often the hardest part of navigating.

>Sometimes on a paper map, it's even easier to plan a route
>(because you can see more of the area than on a phone screen).

Sure, though I find planning a trip on a computer, with a real display
and Internet connection is even better. ...unless it was a multi-stop
vacation, perhaps.

>Of course, the map has to be folded back, while driving ... :)

Yeah, reading a map while driving can be a problem.

[k...@attt.bizz]

They're trading off the replaceable battery for the sleek case. It's
not a terrible tradeoff since the things generally last only two
years. It's fairly rare for a LiIon battery to fail in that two
years. They will lose some capacity but the Razr MAXX (most likely my
next phone) that covered with *huge* capacity.

[SMS]

I'm a member of Tech Shop but I haven't taken the classes yet to operate
the CNC machines or the laser cutter. They have 3D printers there too.
So far I'm not all that impressed with Tech Shop though.

[The Real Bev]

On 12/24/2013 12:33 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:58:28 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> I always thought LG was cheesy. Is this a mistake too?
>
> These <$200 LG phones are pretty good bang for the buck,
> but, they won't/can't compete with the $400 phones.
>
> So, from that perspective, these LG phones are "cheesy".
> especially since most people still probably get their phones
> under contract, so, they don't physically "see" the $400 price
> tag, per se, of the smarter phones.
>
> But I buy my phones outright, and use them as gifts, and,
> I've found you can't get a usable combination of the key
> things you need at lower than the $200 price tag:

The BLU Dash 4.5, my brand of poison, for $139 plus whatever Engadget
<http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/11/blu-dash-4-5/> charges for
tax+shipping has:

> - You want at the very least a 1GHz single CPU

1.2GHz quad-core chip from MediaTek

> - You want at the very least 1GB of system memory

4GB of storage, but a lot of that is already used

> - You want at the very least 1/2GB of RAM

512MB of RAM

> - You want at least an 800x400 pixel display

854 x 480

> - You want at the very least a 4.X Android OS

4.2

>
> Of course, for all those things, more is better; but,
> I've found (through experience) that, if you go below
> a single one of those minimums, you'll have problems
> with the phone running apps.
>
> The cheapest you can get a phone that meets *those*
> minimums is about $179 (plus tax/shipping) so that's
> what I call a $200 phone.

Could be worse...


--
Cheers, Bev
=================================================================
"A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person
or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even
possibly incurring losses." -- C.M.Cipolla

[Nate Nagel]

Well, they *may*, e.g. county GIS or whatever. If there's an error
there, it can be picked up by many different map providers.

I know that I had the same error on a Garmin GPS unit, Waze, and the
built in navigation in my BMW (I don't remember who BMW gets their data
from, anyone know?) I was able to fix the error in Waze, but not the
other two. I remember calling the store and asking for directions and
the lady that answered the phone was really nice and understanding and
said "yes, we get a lot of calls where peoples' GPSes have sent them to
the wrong shopping center"

Now I never did check the county GIS maps to see if that was the problem
or not. I'm not quite bored enough to do it now though :)

>
>> "online" maps like Google or even Waze's crowdsourced stuff is better,
>> but even then there can be problems e.g. I had an issue trying to find a
>> local store because Bing search results for that store had a nonexistent
>> street name for the address and instead of Waze coughing it sent me to
>> the geographic center of that zip code.
>
> When we were house hunting (couple of years ago), several of the
> mapping companies couldn't find various houses (including the one we
> were/are selling). The free Verizon app found them all.

I'm less annoyed with not finding the address at all, and putting up an
error, than directing me somewhere and *not* letting me know there's a
problem. Clearly if I'm using a GPS program it's likely because I don't
know where I'm going :(

[Nate Nagel]

yes, Motorola who has always been my favorite cell phone manufacturer
has gone to the dark side... still good phones though.

[Nate Nagel]

It used to be more useful before Android took away the ability for you
to read the SD card directly from a PC through a USB connection. Now I
have to physically remove the SD card, and I think the slot on my phone
is starting to get funky as sometimes I have to insert it twice before
it's recognized :(

[Nate Nagel]

You're right, and I knew that, but it's good info that a lot of people
*don't* know.

Another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes when a phone uses a
micro USB port for both data transfer and charging (as many do) the
phone will use two pins connected together or something to determine
charge rate; that is, it can tell the difference between plugging into
the USB port on your laptop (in which case it will charge at 500 mA) and
plugging into a wall wart or a 12V to USB adapter in which case it will
charge at whatever the device's maximum charge rate is.

In the case of the Evo, after some research online I found out what the
actual issue was; I was curious if something was wrong with my phone
because the very first road trip I took with it it worked fine, but
subsequently every trip thereafter I needed a new battery about every 90
minutes. Sprint was clueless and basically just shrugged and said "GPS
takes a lot of power." I wasn't real happy as I'd paid retail price for
what was at the time a highly rated smart phone and I wanted to play
with it and do all the stuff I'd been told a smart phone could do. What
I read online however was that a new firmware was pushed out for that
phone that reduced the max charge current due to thermal management
issues, and that I believe - another issue that I had with that phone
was that if run in a windshield mount on a sunny day with GPS app
running, it really could overheat and shut down, I ended up moving it so
that it was in front of an A/C vent. So in an effort to fix one
problem, they created another...

The real solution to the problem was to buy a used Motorola phone which
worked great until Sprint dropped WiMax and went to 4G LTE, then I
bought another Motorola phone with a "free with two year contract" deal.
I gifted the Evo to a friend who doesn't have a car or driver's
license so it all worked out well for everyone :)

[The Real Bev]

On 12/24/2013 01:03 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 09:20:21 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> the current draw while running Waze or
>> Trapster in vehicle mode (screen always on) was more than the charge
>> current from the car charger.
>
> Hi Nate,
> I see you've replaced that phone, but, that's exactly why I recommend
> the dual-port 3.1 Amp USB car chargers.
>
> One port is 2.1 Amps (strange number is due to the iPad requirement);
> and the other port is 1 Amp.
>
> In my experience, most smartphones nowadays will outstrip their charger
> once you get lower than about 850mA, and, it's very important to note
> that the USB standard is only 500mA.
>
> So, if your car charger doesn't actually *say* it's 1Amp, it's probably
> only about 500mA, which is far too low (IMHO) for a smart phone.

As in "won't work at all" or "just takes a lot longer"?

--
Cheers, Bev
=====================================================
"It's too bad stupidity isn't painful." - A. S. LaVey

[The Real Bev]

On 12/25/2013 04:50 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:

> On 12/24/2013 03:26 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:58:28 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>>> I think I rejected Nexi because of missing external SDcard slot.
>>> Probably a bad mistake.
>>
>> It's a trade off. I wish Google would just put the
>> SDcard slot in, and then it would be a no brainer.
>>
>> But, apparently they want to push you toward their
>> cloud services.
>>
>> Sometimes a card slot isn't as useful as you would think
>> though, simply because some apps (and cellular providers)
>> force certain apps to run from system memory.
>>
>> But, I found that this free app is pretty good at
>> moving things from system memory to the SDcard:
>> Advanced SD Card Manager

As usual, it can't move anything to the external card if the card is
known as /storage/sdcard1.

> It used to be more useful before Android took away the ability for you
> to read the SD card directly from a PC through a USB connection. Now I
> have to physically remove the SD card, and I think the slot on my phone
> is starting to get funky as sometimes I have to insert it twice before
> it's recognized :(

You can still read the internal storage via USB, but wifi sees only the
external card. I use ES File explorer on the phone to transfer files
to/from the computer, but haven't figured out how to do that from the
computer, which would be a LOT easier. Something via the router, but...

Still, via USB I just cleared out some cruft from internal storage (each
empty subdirectory uses 16K, not a big deal, but garbage is garbage :-(
At one point I didn't know you were supposed to clear the data before
you uninstall an app.

There's a 'Magix' subdirectory which contains 6 MB of stuff, but I don't
know what uses it so I left it alone.

[Nate Nagel]

On 12/25/2013 06:15 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 12/24/2013 01:03 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 09:20:21 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> the current draw while running Waze or
>>> Trapster in vehicle mode (screen always on) was more than the charge
>>> current from the car charger.
>>
>> Hi Nate,
>> I see you've replaced that phone, but, that's exactly why I recommend
>> the dual-port 3.1 Amp USB car chargers.
>>
>> One port is 2.1 Amps (strange number is due to the iPad requirement);
>> and the other port is 1 Amp.
>>
>> In my experience, most smartphones nowadays will outstrip their charger
>> once you get lower than about 850mA, and, it's very important to note
>> that the USB standard is only 500mA.
>>
>> So, if your car charger doesn't actually *say* it's 1Amp, it's probably
>> only about 500mA, which is far too low (IMHO) for a smart phone.
>
> As in "won't work at all" or "just takes a lot longer"?
>

Depends on how you use it. I haven't tried, but I'm guessing a 500 mA
charger would allow the same issue I originally described (battery
slowly draining while running a navigation app) on many phones.

[Nate Nagel]

You must have an older phone that can't run a newer version of Android.
I think it was Ice Cream Sandwich (? not sure) that took away the
ability to read both the phone's internal memory and the SD card over a
USB connection. Now when you plug the phone in and go into the menu to
change the USB connection type, the "mass storage" option isn't there
anymore. There is a "Media Transfer Protocol" option, but that isn't
always what I want (I may want to just back up the phone's files before
doing something stupid; I may want to use the phone as a flash drive; I
may want to poke around in directories that I shouldn't be poking around
in, e.g. loading a custom color schema for Waze to match my car's dash
lighting...)

[The Real Bev]

alt.home.repair deleted, comp.mobile.android added separately.

4.2.1 I can never remember the stupid name.

> Now when you plug the phone in and go into the menu to
> change the USB connection type, the "mass storage" option isn't there
> anymore. There is a "Media Transfer Protocol" option, but that isn't
> always what I want (I may want to just back up the phone's files before
> doing something stupid; I may want to use the phone as a flash drive; I
> may want to poke around in directories that I shouldn't be poking around
> in, e.g. loading a custom color schema for Waze to match my car's dash
> lighting...)

That probably involves rooting. We did that with a couple of devices,
and contrary to promises it was a real bitch.

Clickfree backs up the the external sd card, and you can then copy that
subdirectory to the computer. I should do that again...

The subdirectory on my computer with my first backup:

drwxr-xr-x 6 root 4096 Nov 1 10:39 ./
drwxr-xr-x 3 root 4096 Nov 20 12:43 ../
drwxr-xr-x 65 root 4096 Nov 20 12:16 .App/
drwxr-xr-x 8 root 4096 Nov 11 10:57 .File/
drwxr-xr-x 6 root 4096 Nov 2 23:55 .Music/
drwxr-xr-x 5 root 4096 Nov 20 12:16 .Photo/
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 540672 Nov 20 12:16 Applications_backup.db*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 25136 Nov 20 12:16 Applications_backup.db-journal
*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 323584 Nov 20 12:14 Bookmarks_backup.db*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 316520 Nov 20 12:14 Bookmarks_backup.db-journal*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 53248 Nov 20 12:16 Calendar_backup.db*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 33344 Nov 20 12:16 Calendar_backup.db-journal*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 1003520 Nov 20 12:15 Contacts_backup.db*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 524288 Nov 20 12:15 Contacts_backup.db-journal*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 32768 Nov 20 12:16 Documents_backup.db*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 12824 Nov 20 12:16 Documents_backup.db-journal*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 57344 Nov 20 12:16 Music_backup.db*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 12824 Nov 20 12:16 Music_backup.db-journal*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 20480 Nov 20 12:16 Photos_backup.db*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 8720 Nov 20 12:16 Photos_backup.db-journal*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 20480 Nov 20 12:16 SMS_backup.db*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 8720 Nov 20 12:16 SMS_backup.db-journal*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 20480 Nov 1 10:38 Videos_backup.db*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 8720 Nov 1 10:38 Videos_backup.db-journal*

Total backup size: 1.23 GB, 630 items. All the .apk files except the
one I paid for are in the .App subdirectory. The .db files aren't
readable as text so I assume you need mysql or something else I'm
unwilling to screw around with to use them.

--
Cheers,
Bev
1010101010101010101010101010101010101
What do you think you're doing, Dave?
-- Hal 9000

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 08:00:36 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:

> Another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes when a phone uses a
> micro USB port for both data transfer and charging (as many do) the
> phone will use two pins connected together or something to determine
> charge rate; that is, it can tell the difference between plugging into
> the USB port on your laptop (in which case it will charge at 500 mA) and
> plugging into a wall wart or a 12V to USB adapter in which case it will
> charge at whatever the device's maximum charge rate is.

Something like that has always confounded me, both on my Motorola
RAZR V3, which would never charge on USB car chargers, but, had
no problem charging on PCs with the same cable - and - on my
Samsung Galaxy S3, which practically burned up on some car
chargers.

So, I don't doubt funny business goes on in some of these setups.

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 19:02:57 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:

>> As in "won't work at all" or "just takes a lot longer"?
> Depends on how you use it. I haven't tried, but I'm guessing a 500 mA
> charger would allow the same issue I originally described (battery
> slowly draining while running a navigation app) on many phones.

I'm gonna haf'ta agree with Nate.

I can only see two outcomes if the charger can't keep up with
the current draw of the phone.

1. The phone battery will have to supply the missing current,
which, will drain the battery, only slower than without the
charger.

2. The charger is going to heat up, and might even blow its
fuse (most have them, but not all). Most fuses are something
like 2 or 3 amps, and they're on the 12 volt side, so, that's
24 to 36 Watts.

The *simple* answer is always get at least a dual port, 2 Amp
USB charger, that can put out at least 1 amp from each port.

Personally, the best I've found are 2.1Amp (for the iPad)
on one port, and 1 Amp on the other.

The funny thing is that they don't cost any more; but you
have to read all the writing on the package and throw down
(with disgust) any that don't say the amperage clearly, and
whether it's concomitant or not.

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:58:28 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

>> I've had that T-Mobile plan in the past, and it's pretty good.
>
> Except for the coverage

I've had all three (Verizon, AT&T, & T-Mobile), albeit sequentially,
in that order.

IMHO, they're about the same with respect to coverage in the
Silicon Valley.

I'm positive they differ elsewhere, but, at least where *I* travel,
the coverage is about the same. They even share antennas, I'm told.

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 07:50:49 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:

> It used to be more useful before Android took away the ability for you
> to read the SD card directly from a PC through a USB connection. Now I
> have to physically remove the SD card, and I think the slot on my phone
> is starting to get funky as sometimes I have to insert it twice before
> it's recognized

Hi Nate,
Android, at some point (4.1?) removed USB mass storage, and went
to MTP mode. This screwed up all the Redhat Linux folks, who still
don't have a way to install MTP easily.

But, the Google team gave Apple the MTP code, and I think there
is opensource code for the rest of the Linux's, so, you *should*
be able to read the SD Card.

At least, on my Samsung Galaxy S3, on Windows & on Ubuntu 13.10,
I don't have any problem reading the SD Card when the phone is in
MTP mode.

Note: You can only set the mode when you're plugged into a USB
cable (just in case you're looking for the setting). The other
choice is "Camera Mode", I think they call it PTP or something
like that.

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 15:48:22 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

> As usual, it can't move anything to the external card if the card is
> known as /storage/sdcard1.

I never understood that stuff.
If you can clarify, that would be useful.

For example, the Samsung Galaxy S3 I have seems to include
an *internal* storage card, called, I think, /storage/sdcard0
(or something like that).

Since I have a lot of space, I don't move things around, but,
be forwarned, all Android OS's up to (but not including 4.3)
lie about the storage space.

There's an entire thread on this in comp.mobile.android,
but, the punch line is that, at least T-Mobile, finally,
at Android 4.3, started telling the truth about how much
Internal storage you started with on your Android phone.

Here are all the memory apps I tested, by the way, and
*every* one fails to tell you what Android 4.3 now tells
you!
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/11271494805_85ea45a558_o.png

Here's are the two Android operating systems I tested:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2888/11271563134_95aeab16d3_o.jpg

And, notice how they show the internal memory differently:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7387/11282708365_60a13e9fae_o.jpg

Basically, you don't get the truth until you move to
Android 4.3, at least with my one test of the Samsung
Galaxy S3 on T-Mobile.

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 01:20:02 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

> The BLU Dash 4.5, my brand of poison, for $139

That's a pretty good phone for that price!

[Danny D.]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 06:40:41 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

>> The BLU Dash 4.5, my brand of poison, for $139
>
> That's a pretty good phone for that price!

I'm really liking that BLU Dash for bang for the buck:
http://www.phonebunch.com/compare-phones/motorola_moto_x-1020-vs-blu_dash_4.5-1132/

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 07:47:44 -0500, Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net>

Yes, but not all use the same resources. Google relies on its
satellite surveys, IIRC.

>I know that I had the same error on a Garmin GPS unit, Waze, and the
>built in navigation in my BMW (I don't remember who BMW gets their data
>from, anyone know?)

I would bet they get their data from Garmin.

>I was able to fix the error in Waze, but not the
>other two. I remember calling the store and asking for directions and
>the lady that answered the phone was really nice and understanding and
>said "yes, we get a lot of calls where peoples' GPSes have sent them to
>the wrong shopping center"

Hmm, maybe a good marketing tool... ;-)

>Now I never did check the county GIS maps to see if that was the problem
>or not. I'm not quite bored enough to do it now though :)
>
>>
>>> "online" maps like Google or even Waze's crowdsourced stuff is better,
>>> but even then there can be problems e.g. I had an issue trying to find a
>>> local store because Bing search results for that store had a nonexistent
>>> street name for the address and instead of Waze coughing it sent me to
>>> the geographic center of that zip code.
>>
>> When we were house hunting (couple of years ago), several of the
>> mapping companies couldn't find various houses (including the one we
>> were/are selling). The free Verizon app found them all.
>
>I'm less annoyed with not finding the address at all, and putting up an
>error, than directing me somewhere and *not* letting me know there's a
>problem. Clearly if I'm using a GPS program it's likely because I don't
>know where I'm going :(

Just pointing out that the Verizon data was more up-to-date than the
companies in the business of selling map data. The house I was in a
development that was over five years old and it still didn't show on
the maps.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 08:00:36 -0500, Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net>
wrote:

Yes, though it's a little more complicated than shorting two pins. The
data pins are tied up, or down, with resistors of a particular value.
The charging device then reads these resistors to program its charging
rate. If the charger doesn't recognize these, it'll only charge at
the USB rate (.5A). If a charger is smart enough, it'll read these
resistors and know what is on the other end so can charge it faster.

>In the case of the Evo, after some research online I found out what the
>actual issue was; I was curious if something was wrong with my phone
>because the very first road trip I took with it it worked fine, but
>subsequently every trip thereafter I needed a new battery about every 90
>minutes. Sprint was clueless and basically just shrugged and said "GPS
>takes a lot of power." I wasn't real happy as I'd paid retail price for
>what was at the time a highly rated smart phone and I wanted to play
>with it and do all the stuff I'd been told a smart phone could do. What
>I read online however was that a new firmware was pushed out for that
>phone that reduced the max charge current due to thermal management
>issues, and that I believe - another issue that I had with that phone
>was that if run in a windshield mount on a sunny day with GPS app
>running, it really could overheat and shut down, I ended up moving it so
>that it was in front of an A/C vent. So in an effort to fix one
>problem, they created another...

Doesn't make sense. The charge rate doesn't affect the battery's
capacity, only its charge time.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 07:47:44 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:

> I'm less annoyed with not finding the address at all, and putting up an
> error, than directing me somewhere and *not* letting me know there's a
> problem. Clearly if I'm using a GPS program it's likely because I don't
> know where I'm going

I think the huge advantage of maps is outlying perspective.

If you find a street address but it's in the wrong part of town, then
you'll (likely) know that right away using a paper map.

But, on a puny telephone screen, it's more likely an error won't
get caught, with the result that we can end up in the wrong side of town.

Of the 20 free mapping applications I tested, there were really only
three map systems, namely (1) OSM, (2) Google, and (3) Navteq (for the
CoPilot maps).

Google and Navteq seemed accurate, and even the OSM maps seemed "good
enough" for government work...

The POIs were, however, highly incomplete in the OSM maps, and
non-existent in the Google Maps (offline searches don't exist); and
rather good in the Navteq maps.

So, that's why I recommend this combination:
a) An offline map app (like Navigator) which talks you through the route
b) CoPilot (trialware or payware) for map accuracy (and TTS if you pay)

In addition, I add Google Maps using the "OK MAPS" tile download cheat,
but, Google Maps doesn't really add much to that mix above, and, the
Google Map tiles are deleted every 30 days anyway (without heroics).

[Danny D'Amico]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 11:26:52 -0500, krw wrote:

> Yes, but not all use the same resources. Google relies on its
> satellite surveys, IIRC.

The Google maps are fantastically accurate, so, they must
be putting resources to this, either via satellite, or by
actually driving the roads with that google car.

However, the Navteq maps (one of which comes free with CoPilot
trialware) seems pretty accurate also (and comes with POIs, which
offline, Google Maps does not).

I must say the OSM maps are a disappointment, at least in the
Silicon Valley - but they're "good enough" - and they can only
get better over time - so I still think OSM is useful.

[SMS]

Five or six years ago T-Mobile and AT&T were hopeless in parts of
Silicon Valley, including Cupertino. I recall city council meetings
where the city was pushing to allow cell phone towers in parks because
there was just no other way for Sprint, T-Mobile, and AT&T to increase
coverage to match Verizon. And of course since the iPhone was originally
only on AT&T there were lots of complaints that iPhones worked so poorly
in the city where Apple is located.

Things have improved somewhat, but I'd still avoid T-Mobile because
there are lots of non-urban areas that I go to where T-Mobile has no
coverage at all and no roaming onto AT&T. Some of those areas have no
Verizon native coverage, but there is roaming onto other CDMA carriers
for Verizon and Pageplus users (but no data roaming on Pageplus). For
example, in Yosemite the best coverage is via Golden State Cellular,
onto which Sprint, Verizon, and Pageplus customers can roam. AT&T (no
T-Mobile roaming) has coverage in Yosemite Valley but not in other areas
of the park.

If I had a T-Mobile account like their $30 unlimited data plan then I'd
have to carry along a Pageplus phone on trips outside urban areas just
so I'd have at least voice and text service.

[SMS]

It should not confound you. On a computer the PC must have had the
Motorola driver installed which allows charging (if you ever installed
Motorola Phone Tools then the driver was installed). On a car charger
you must have the proper resistor between two of the pins.

See <http://pinoutsguide.com/ChargersAdapters/razrv3_charger_pinout.shtml>.

You couldn't just modify a USB-A to Mini-USB cable because the fifth
wire wasn't present inside the cable.

You used to be able to buy little adapters that were Mini-USB female to
male that had the resistor built into the adapter
<http://dx.com/p/mini-usb-5-pin-charger-adapter-for-moto-v9-32597>. I
had several of these.

[Nate Nagel]

I can't find a link because the phone's been long discontinued, but I
remember reading that the max charge current was limited by a firmware
change to 700-something mA. Apparently the phone was *using* more than
that when I had my usual suite of in the car apps running.

[The Real Bev]

On 12/25/2013 10:15 PM, Danny D. wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 19:02:57 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>>> As in "won't work at all" or "just takes a lot longer"?
>> Depends on how you use it. I haven't tried, but I'm guessing a 500 mA
>> charger would allow the same issue I originally described (battery
>> slowly draining while running a navigation app) on many phones.
>
> I'm gonna haf'ta agree with Nate.
>
> I can only see two outcomes if the charger can't keep up with
> the current draw of the phone.
>
> 1. The phone battery will have to supply the missing current,
> which, will drain the battery, only slower than without the
> charger.
>
> 2. The charger is going to heat up, and might even blow its
> fuse (most have them, but not all). Most fuses are something
> like 2 or 3 amps, and they're on the 12 volt side, so, that's
> 24 to 36 Watts.
>
> The *simple* answer is always get at least a dual port, 2 Amp
> USB charger, that can put out at least 1 amp from each port.
>
> Personally, the best I've found are 2.1Amp (for the iPad)
> on one port, and 1 Amp on the other.

I just ordered one like that from buy.com for $6.99 (free, actually,
they gave me $10 and no tax or shipping). Was that a good price?

I also got a nice pink microUSB cable for 99 cents at the 99-Cents-Only
Store.

> The funny thing is that they don't cost any more; but you
> have to read all the writing on the package and throw down
> (with disgust) any that don't say the amperage clearly, and
> whether it's concomitant or not.

2.1A duals are ~$4, so I blew the extra $3!


--
Cheers, Bev
=====================================================================
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?

[The Real Bev]

It's got annoyances, but I've used it for nearly 2 months and am pretty
satisfied so far. I've made two wifi calls and NO cell calls so far,
which shows how much I really need a cellphone :-( It's basically a
pocket-size tablet with phone capability. I should have chosen a
smaller one, though.

[The Real Bev]

Serious drawbacks:

1. You can't get cases for it. It comes with a grey skin, which is
fine, but I'd like something in a neon color that I could attach a
neck-leash to. For this function, smaller would be better. It comes
with a screen protector already attached, plus one still in its package.
I'd rather have a frosted one, but I can order something from China
that can be made to work when these are destroyed.

2. Needs more internal memory.

3. Inability to run apps on the external card. I don't want to use the
phone as an mp3 player, so the utility of the external card is far less
than I expected. This may be an Android rather than a BLU thing.

I'd like to NOT have to push the power button before I swipe to make the
screen turn back on -- The fewer times I have to operate a mechanical
switch the happier I am. Again, this may be an android thing rather
than a BLU thing.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 06:21:37 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dan...@nowhere.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:58:28 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>>> I've had that T-Mobile plan in the past, and it's pretty good.
>>
>> Except for the coverage
>
>I've had all three (Verizon, AT&T, & T-Mobile), albeit sequentially,
>in that order.
>
>IMHO, they're about the same with respect to coverage in the
>Silicon Valley.

They all cover large cities pretty well. Got outside of a
metropolitan area and the difference gets quite clear. Verizon is the
only one with true nation-wide coverage. They're the only one who
will even sell me service in my area and I live in a major
metropolitan area.

>I'm positive they differ elsewhere, but, at least where *I* travel,
>the coverage is about the same. They even share antennas, I'm told.

I'm sure they share towers in some areas but antennas?

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:34:51 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 11:26:52 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> Yes, but not all use the same resources. Google relies on its
>> satellite surveys, IIRC.
>
>The Google maps are fantastically accurate, so, they must
>be putting resources to this, either via satellite, or by
>actually driving the roads with that google car.

Both, it would seem.

>However, the Navteq maps (one of which comes free with CoPilot
>trialware) seems pretty accurate also (and comes with POIs, which
>offline, Google Maps does not).

I certainly don't have any insight into their business but they may be
reselling Google data with the POIs, and such, as their value add.

>I must say the OSM maps are a disappointment, at least in the
>Silicon Valley - but they're "good enough" - and they can only
>get better over time - so I still think OSM is useful.

Not sure why. For personal use, there are many other free (to use)
sources of this data. I once bought Delorme mapping software but
there was never a reason to update it. The free stuff is so much
better (and free ;).

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:32:37 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 07:47:44 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> I'm less annoyed with not finding the address at all, and putting up an
>> error, than directing me somewhere and *not* letting me know there's a
>> problem. Clearly if I'm using a GPS program it's likely because I don't
>> know where I'm going
>
>I think the huge advantage of maps is outlying perspective.

Sure. I think paper books beat eBooks, all to hell, for some
applications too. Others, not so much. At work I print
specifications as well as read the PDFs. I have both handy
simultaneously. It's much more efficient. For just getting from here
to there, (or searching for information) the 'e' variety is *far*
superior.

>If you find a street address but it's in the wrong part of town, then
>you'll (likely) know that right away using a paper map.

For glacial values of "right away". ;-)

Using the time or distance to destination gives a lot of information,
too.

>But, on a puny telephone screen, it's more likely an error won't
>get caught, with the result that we can end up in the wrong side of town.

...or on a one-lane country road in the middle of Southern Illinois.
:-(

It's really matter of not looking at the routing ahead of time,
though. You *can* see where it wants to take you.

>Of the 20 free mapping applications I tested, there were really only
>three map systems, namely (1) OSM, (2) Google, and (3) Navteq (for the
>CoPilot maps).
>
>Google and Navteq seemed accurate, and even the OSM maps seemed "good
>enough" for government work...
>
>The POIs were, however, highly incomplete in the OSM maps, and
>non-existent in the Google Maps (offline searches don't exist); and
>rather good in the Navteq maps.

Understand where they're making their money. It's not coming from
you.

>So, that's why I recommend this combination:
>a) An offline map app (like Navigator) which talks you through the route
>b) CoPilot (trialware or payware) for map accuracy (and TTS if you pay)
>
>In addition, I add Google Maps using the "OK MAPS" tile download cheat,
>but, Google Maps doesn't really add much to that mix above, and, the
>Google Map tiles are deleted every 30 days anyway (without heroics).

My cell phone will give me a listing of the routing, as well. I
generally don't look at it, though. I can also modify the routing,
fairly easily (drag the route). It does do some odd things so I just
have to be a little more vigilant on long trips.

The really nice thing about the phone app (that the Magellan I had
before didn't do) is pick up my alternate route very quickly. If I
"miss" one of its turns, it'll reroute to the one I've likely chosen
within a hundred yards. My Magellan would constantly nag about doing
a U-turn for many miles. It also had the nasty habit of showing one
route on the display and talking through a completely different
routing.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:18:24 -0500, krw wrote:

> I once bought Delorme mapping software but there was never a reason

> to update it. The free stuff is so much better (and free .

I don't disagree.

The free stuff is often as good or better than the payware.
Besides, it's my modus operandi to learn on the free stuff, and then,
if necessary, when I buy the payware, I *know exactly what I need*.
That's why I'm a regular member of alt.comp.freeware & comp.mobile.android.

Funny thing, most of the time, you don't /need/ the payware!
It just makes you feel good to be paying someone for good software,
but it doesn't actually get you better software (in many cases).

About the only software I need to pay for to get good quality is
Adobe Acrobat & TurboTax & kid's PC games.

(Almost) everything else, I can get as-good-or-better stuff for free.

For example, name something you've paid for, on the PC, and I'll
let you know if I already have a decent freeware alternative.

PS: I still have DeLorme, CoPilot, Microsoft Maps, StreetSmart,
and other PC GPS software somewhere. I used to literally put
the laptop on my lap, drive somewhere, and use a serial-port
GPS device on the dashboard. My, how far we've come from that!

[Danny D'Amico]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:30:13 -0500, krw wrote:

> For just getting from here
> to there, (or searching for information) the 'e' variety is *far*
> superior.

Heh heh... I've forgotten about those Brooklyn & Queens maps, where
the entire backside was tiny print indexing all the street names.

It would almost be like playing Battleship. E17. F34. etc. just to
find where a road was.

So, I fully agree, especially with my bad eyes lately, that searching
on the phone is far superior to searching on printed papyrus leaves!

[Danny D'Amico]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:30:13 -0500, krw wrote:

> Using the time or distance to destination gives a lot of
> information, too.

That's a good point!

I often look at a trip calculation, that, say, I know is about
an hour, and if it says it's 20 minutes, then I know it found
the wrong road.

Still, I've been burned. Do you know there are two Mission
Boulevards in the Silicon Valley, just a few miles apart,
both of which connect to i680?

I can't believe they named two distinctly different roads
the exact same name, yet, they both hit a major highway.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:30:13 -0500, krw wrote:

> Understand where they're making their money.
> It's not coming from you.

Hmmm... this is a good point.

It makes sense that a POI would *want* their name, address, and
phone number in the map-maker's POI database.

I love, for example, the offline CoPilot Navteq database which
allows me to call the POI by phone at the touch of a button.

I just wish it would find POIs in the *direction* of the route
like Aponia "Be-On-Road" does (which otherwise stinks).

[Danny D'Amico]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:30:13 -0500, krw wrote:

> My cell phone will give me a listing of the routing, as well.

Most (but not all) the freeware offline Android GPS apps would
list the routing directions; but, I found the OSM ones were
horrid simply because they listed every darn *segment* in the
routing database!

Yuck!

The other databases (i.e., Google & Navteq) that I was able
to test for free don't do that.

> I can also modify the routing, fairly easily (drag the route).

You must be using CoPilot. It's the *only* freeware that I tested
which allowed (to my knowledge) dragging. That's a nice feature.

> The really nice thing about the phone app (that the Magellan I had
> before didn't do) is pick up my alternate route very quickly.

You've hit upon a *key* requirement of a portable GPS app!

The need to re-route quickly is especially important when you're
driving and you have to make quick decisions!

All but a few of the 20 apps I tested quickly re-routed when I went
off base (some, as you noted, within a few hundred yards).

In fact, the main reason I could never imagine anyone buying
the (admittedly very pretty) Sygic map application was precisely
that it wouldn't re-route for 15 miles.

I was heading toward San Jose in heavy traffic on i580, and when
I saw the sign in Livermore for 84 South to cut the hypotenuse
between i580 and i680, I took it.

For 10 or 15 miles (almost the entire distance), Sygic kept
admonishing me to make a u turn, and to go back to i580.

I had similar problems with ZNavi, which insisted on keeping to
a route, at the expense of many miles of roadway.

Luckily, most apps re-calculated rather quickly, most doing so
within a half mile on the highway and less than that on side
roads.

So I agree, it's a key feature for quick recalculation to happen,
and any map app that fails to recalculate, is essentially useless.

> It also had the nasty habit of showing one route on the display
> and talking through a completely different routing.

I have a Magellan Roadmate, and I haven't seen that, but I don't
doubt it as it's not my favorite (which were the Garmin nüvi's).

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 15:33:48 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:18:24 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> I once bought Delorme mapping software but there was never a reason
>> to update it. The free stuff is so much better (and free .
>
>I don't disagree.
>
>The free stuff is often as good or better than the payware.
>Besides, it's my modus operandi to learn on the free stuff, and then,
>if necessary, when I buy the payware, I *know exactly what I need*.
>That's why I'm a regular member of alt.comp.freeware & comp.mobile.android.
>
>Funny thing, most of the time, you don't /need/ the payware!
>It just makes you feel good to be paying someone for good software,
>but it doesn't actually get you better software (in many cases).

I don't mind paying for software that does something that I need and
can't get "free". It needs to do something different or at least
"supported" better. I use Agent as a newsreader and keep it up to
date (more or less), for instance.

>About the only software I need to pay for to get good quality is
>Adobe Acrobat & TurboTax & kid's PC games.

Better Acrobat than Acrobat can be had, free. TurboTax, obviously. I
don't have kids anymore and I don't play games.

>(Almost) everything else, I can get as-good-or-better stuff for free.

Cross Acrobat off your list, too.

>For example, name something you've paid for, on the PC, and I'll
>let you know if I already have a decent freeware alternative.
>
>PS: I still have DeLorme, CoPilot, Microsoft Maps, StreetSmart,
>and other PC GPS software somewhere. I used to literally put
>the laptop on my lap, drive somewhere, and use a serial-port
>GPS device on the dashboard. My, how far we've come from that!

Well, my GPS was Bluetooth, but...

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 15:38:29 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:30:13 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> Using the time or distance to destination gives a lot of
>> information, too.
>
>That's a good point!
>
>I often look at a trip calculation, that, say, I know is about
>an hour, and if it says it's 20 minutes, then I know it found
>the wrong road.
>
>Still, I've been burned. Do you know there are two Mission
>Boulevards in the Silicon Valley, just a few miles apart,
>both of which connect to i680?

Try PeachTree street in the Atlanta area. Everything in the whole
state is named "Peachtree &something".

>I can't believe they named two distinctly different roads
>the exact same name, yet, they both hit a major highway.

That's not unusual pretty much anywhere. The same name is used by
adjacent towns for roads, quite often. Often roads are named for the
town where they're going, so it's not unusual at all. In Vermont, for
instance there was a North Williston Road and a Williston Road. North
Williston runs (more or less) parallel to Williston and to its East.
It is NOT the same road on the North side of the city.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 12:42:14 -0500, krw wrote:

> I use Agent as a newsreader and keep it up to date (more or less),
> for instance.

I understand.

I used to use "Forte Free Agent", until they went payware.
Now I use "Pan". Other freeware exists for nntp newsreaders, which
is why I visit 'news.software.nntp' from time to time...

> Better Acrobat than Acrobat can be had, free.

I've tried many times to find something better than Adobe Acrobat
(the payware), and, there are multiple posts on comp.text.pdf where
I ask - but nobody has yet come up with a free PDF convert that
can convert an entire web site (as deeply as you want to go) into
a single clickable PDF file, with all margins as you'd want them,
and with all links working (mostly) as they did in the original
web page.

Also, most free PDF converters don't allow the nice editing that
you get with the Adobe Acrobat payware. Plus, most don't shrink
PDF documents as nicely (although some come close).

But, the biggest thing missing from the freeware is that nice
conversion of an entire web site to clickable PDF!

So, while most freeware will "print" to PDF (e.g., cutePdf,
PrimoPDF, doPDF, BullZip, PDF995, PDF Creator, etc.), I can't
find any that will convert an entire web site to a single
cross-linked PDF file.

If I did, I would stop buying Adobe Acrobat!

> TurboTax, obviously.

Actually, it's not so obvious. I asked in the alt.comp.freeware
and in the misc.taxes and misc.taxes.moderated newsgroups, and,
free US Federal tax software exists; but I don't trust them
out of hand (so I have zero experience with them).

> I don't have kids anymore and I don't play games.

Me neither; but I have recently inherited some step kids (long
story), so, I'm back to getting kids games for them.

> Cross Acrobat off your list, too.

Nope. Can't do it until someone finds me a freeware program
that prints web sites to clickable PDF and which allows editing
of the text in that PDF. :)

I also have a payware RecoSoft PDF2Office converter, which
converts any PDF to editable Microsoft Office - although it
only works to a point.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 12:48:45 -0500, krw wrote:

> Often roads are named for the
> town where they're going, so it's not unusual at all.

yeah. We have Sunnyvale-Saratoga road, which, I guess, was supposed
to connect Sunnyvale (the town) and Saratoga (the town).

Yet, we also have Saratoga Road, which intersects with it, and,
since they can't *fit* Sunnyvale-Saratoga on the same sign, I
get confused all the time at the Bermuda Triangle where they meet!

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 15:41:14 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

> I just wish it would find POIs in the *direction* of the route
> like Aponia "Be-On-Road" does (which otherwise stinks).

The half-dozen *very basic* things I'd *want* in freeware GPS
which mostly aren't there are:

1) Finding POIs in the *direction* of the route.
Only Aponia Be On Road did that.

2) Change a route by *dragging* it.
Only Alk CoPilot did that.

3) POIs with *dialable phone* numbers:
Only Alk CoPilot did that.

4) Voice guidance *reminds you* of the next turn, on command!
None of the freeware programs did this simple act. :(

5) Map displays the *next roadname* so you know what signs to read!
Surprisingly, only ZANavi had this feature!

6) Map displays time-and-miles-to-destination.
Alk CoPilot & Mapsource Navigator displayed this information.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 14:18:02 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

> I just ordered one like that from buy.com for $6.99 (free, actually,
> they gave me $10 and no tax or shipping). Was that a good price?

Just be sure that the wattage and amperage add up!

For example, this was posted on comp.mobile.android today:
http://www.rakuten.com/prod/evogue-oem-3-1-amp-10w-fast-dual-usb-heavy-duty-ouput-car-charger/245314962.html

Notice the advertising lies.

It says it's 3.1 Amps but it also says it's 10 Watts!

Do you see the lie?

HINT: USB is 5 Volts and P=IV (so P/V = I), which makes I = 2.1 Amps,
not 3.1 Amps!

What they're saying, without saying it to someone who doesn't
know the details, is that you can get only 2.1 Amps (which is
the iPad mandated current) out of the thing OR 1 Amp.

Notice, since it's *not* 15 Watts, you can't get 2.1 Amps AND
1 Amp.

That makes the advertising a lie, although technically, they
didn't lie. They only mislead those who don't understand what
I wrote above.

What you *want* are 2.1 Amps *and* 1 Amp slots, which is a true
15 Watt 3.1 Amp dual-port USB car charger!

Details matter (in advertising).

[Danny D'Amico]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 14:18:02 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

> 2.1A duals are ~$4, so I blew the extra $3!

The minimum that *I* would buy is 2.1 Amp (the iPad uses the most
current so that's why it's the funny number) PLUS a simultaneous
1 A Amp, which is 15 Watts:

Here is one I'd buy for $8 (it is 3.1 Amps, or 15 Watts):
http://www.amazon.com/Tech-Armor-Charger-Watts-Black/dp/B00CD0HDWI

Here is one I would NOT buy at $7 (it is 3.1 Amps but only 10 Watts):
http://www.rakuten.com/prod/evogue-oem-3-1-amp-10w-fast-dual-usb-heavy-duty-ouput-car-charger/245314962.html

Notice that second one is really only 2.1 Amp *or* 1 Amp (but not both!).

Also notice the price is about the same, so, price is (as always) never
an indication of quality.

What matters are the specs, and knowing what they mean, and knowing
what *you* want.

[sms]

On 12/27/2013 10:55 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 12:48:45 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> Often roads are named for the
>> town where they're going, so it's not unusual at all.
>
> yeah. We have Sunnyvale-Saratoga road, which, I guess, was supposed
> to connect Sunnyvale (the town) and Saratoga (the town).

And in Saratoga it's Saratoga-Sunnyvale Road. In Cupertino and West San
Jose it's De Anza Boulevard. And just to confuse people even more, it
used to be called Highway 9, and some old-timers still call it that.

> Yet, we also have Saratoga Road, which intersects with it, and,
> since they can't *fit* Sunnyvale-Saratoga on the same sign, I
> get confused all the time at the Bermuda Triangle where they meet!

No, it's Saratoga Avenue that intersects with Saratoga-Sunnyvale Road
and Highway 9. There is no Saratoga Road. There is Saratoga-Los Gatos
Road, AKA Highway 9.

I am glad that they finally have added exit numbers to many freeways
since it makes it easier to give directions.

[mike]

Vancouver, Washington is laid out as 4 quadrants.
So, there's a NW 150th ST and a SW 150th ST and a NE 150th ST
and a SE 150th ST.
Assuming you got that right...and they got that right, a GPS
might get you where you're going.

Many adjacent cities have the same street names.
And if you needed a GPS, you probably wouldn't know that
off the top of your head.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 18:41:23 -0500, krw wrote:

> They all cover large cities pretty well. Got outside of a
> metropolitan area and the difference gets quite clear. Verizon is the
> only one with true nation-wide coverage. They're the only one who
> will even sell me service in my area and I live in a major
> metropolitan area.

I don't disagree.

I've had all three, over time, and each covered the major
areas, and each failed to cover the boondocks.

If Verizon was GSM, they'd be in my selection list; but,
I only use GSM phones so AT&T & T-Mobile are my choices.

I left Verizon because they pissed me off about renegotiating
my contract when I swapped out a broken phone for a new one;
and I left AT&T for charging for data I didn't want to pay for;
but, now it seems that any *new* plan on T-Mobile does the same.

Sigh. I guess I'll stay on my grandfathered $70/month T-Mobile
plan for a family of 4 for a while ...

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 12:28:07 -0800, sms wrote:

> No, it's Saratoga Avenue that intersects with Saratoga-Sunnyvale Road
> and Highway 9. There is no Saratoga Road. There is Saratoga-Los Gatos
> Road, AKA Highway 9.
>
> I am glad that they finally have added exit numbers to many freeways
> since it makes it easier to give directions.

You are correct. Sorry about the mis-statement.

ANd, yes, only very recently have the exit numbers been added.
Pretty much California isn't used to exit numbers.
It's a cultural thing, I guess.

[Nate Nagel]

I have friends who try to give me directions using exit numbers. Drives
me batshit... I ask them "so is that I-81 north or south?" or something
like that and tell them that I'll never remember a random number/letter
combination but I can certainly remember a road name and direction. Then
they tell me that they aren't good with cardinal directions and I pound
my head on the steering wheel and cry.

This is one reason, to bring this thread back around, why I love GPS and
GPS-enabled smart phone apps.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 14:13:13 -0800, mike <ham...@netzero.net> wrote:

>On 12/27/2013 7:38 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:30:13 -0500, krw wrote:
>>
>>> Using the time or distance to destination gives a lot of
>>> information, too.
>>
>> That's a good point!
>>
>> I often look at a trip calculation, that, say, I know is about
>> an hour, and if it says it's 20 minutes, then I know it found
>> the wrong road.
>>
>> Still, I've been burned. Do you know there are two Mission
>> Boulevards in the Silicon Valley, just a few miles apart,
>> both of which connect to i680?
>>
>> I can't believe they named two distinctly different roads
>> the exact same name, yet, they both hit a major highway.
>>
>Vancouver, Washington is laid out as 4 quadrants.
>So, there's a NW 150th ST and a SW 150th ST and a NE 150th ST
>and a SE 150th ST.

Minneapolis is the same way. It's not unusual.

>Assuming you got that right...and they got that right, a GPS
>might get you where you're going.

Yea, compass points matter. ;-)

>Many adjacent cities have the same street names.
>And if you needed a GPS, you probably wouldn't know that
>off the top of your head.

You make a good point but you can specify the city in the routing
request.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 22:38:43 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 18:41:23 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> They all cover large cities pretty well. Got outside of a
>> metropolitan area and the difference gets quite clear. Verizon is the
>> only one with true nation-wide coverage. They're the only one who
>> will even sell me service in my area and I live in a major
>> metropolitan area.
>
>I don't disagree.
>
>I've had all three, over time, and each covered the major
>areas, and each failed to cover the boondocks.
>
>If Verizon was GSM, they'd be in my selection list; but,
>I only use GSM phones so AT&T & T-Mobile are my choices.

Why insist on GSM?

[mike]

Well, you can, if you know what it is.
If you're new to Portland, Oregon, you may not know
whether the place you want is in Portland or Beaverton
or Aloha or Hillsboro or any one of the other adjacent townships.
I've been here 40 years and I still can't be sure where one stops
and the other starts.
I don't live in the city of Portland, but frequently have online
purchases rejected because they think my zip code is Portland and
doesn't match the city I entered.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Must be. The whole state of New Jersey runs off of exit numbers.

Q: "Where are you from?"
A: "Exit 47."
Q: "Oh, I've been there. Do you know Jane Smith?..."

[tlvp]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 19:44:01 -0500, k...@attt.bizz wrote:

> Why insist on GSM?

Makes phone use during world travel a lot easier :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.