In what way are you LEAST frugal?
OhioGuy
that while I try to be frugal in nearly every part of my life, I simply want
a long, hot shower - sometimes I take a half hour one. <this came up because
our new house has no natural gas hookup, and I've heard that the electric
water heaters can have trouble keeping up with usage>
So this is probably the area where I'm not so frugal, and I allow myself
to indulge.
Rod Speed
> I was having a discussion with someone this past week, and had to admit that while I try to be frugal in nearly every
> part of my life,
> I simply want a long, hot shower - sometimes I take a half hour one.
I'd have you publicly flogged if you hadnt enjoyed that so much the last time.
> <this came up because our new house has no natural gas hookup, and I've heard that the electric water heaters can have
> trouble keeping up with usage>
Storage heaters can.
> So this is probably the area where I'm not so frugal, and I allow myself to indulge.
I'd have you publicly flogged if you hadnt enjoyed that so much the last time.
I bought a new car instead of farting around with used cars.
Bill
in the long term. Things like Energy Star appliances which will use less
energy, a car which gets good gas mileage, etc.
SMS
Oh please, that's like answering an interviewer's question of "tell me
one fault about you" with "I work too hard."
m...@privacy.net
>I bought a new car instead of farting around with used cars.
That may actually be MORE frugal than a used car in my
opinion
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> I bought a new car instead of farting around with used cars.
> That may actually be MORE frugal than a used car in my opinion
Nar, its never frugal, just much more convenient.
Corse I did keep the previous one I bought new for
35+ years, so overall it is a pretty frugal approach.
Shaun Eli
for!
Shaun Eli
www.BrainChampagne.com
missussex
Exactly! We're retired and on a limited income. Our "new" car is 1993
Geo Prizm (the other car is a 1987 Accord). We live in a small one-
bedroom house and seldom travel. I shop for clothes at resale shops
and thrift stores. But we dine out at least once a week and love good
wine.
I am also not frugal when it comes to fragrances. I like Chanel and
Dior. The cheap stuff just doesn't cut it for me.
Michael Black
> In article <XUxEm.1517$KA5...@newsfe12.iad>, "OhioGuy" <no...@none.net>
> Me? Probably travel. I live to travel. I don't have kids or a wife, but
> I do have a good deal of friends who also like to travel so I end up
> taking three or four vacations a year. For example, in June, I went to
> England to visit some relatives, then I hooked up with some friends in
> Liverpool. In August, I spent eight days with a friend in Las Vegas,
> then a few weeks later, I spent a weekend at the beach.
>
People are talking "frugal" without defining it.
There used to be a woman who posted here regularly who stated outright
she was frugal in her routine life so she could afford to go to Europe to
speed skate each year.
That seems to be a good definition, especially since it also overlaps with
frugality being about making good purchases. If I buy electronic gadgetry
at garage sales for very little, one could argue it's not frugal to do so,
yet if I'm doing it it's more frugal than the people I'm buying them from
who so badly had to have those items they paid top dollar for, and yet
no longer want.
Running a hot shower with nobody in it is not frugal, I don't think you
there is any way to spin it in a frugal way. But if it gives someone
pleasure, then it's hardly a bad thing. It likely isn't smart if someone
has lots of debt and isn't frugal generally, but by being frugal generally
it allows for some perks. Frugality shouldn't be about living a monk-like
existence.
One might assume that when you travel, you are frugal, trying to get a
good travel price. Someone who travels on a whim loses out on advanced
booking prices, someone who can plan ahead, or wait patiently, can save
money. ONe might also assume you don't rush out and buy a new wardrobe
each time you travel.
Michael
holarchy
> On Sat, 24 Oct 2009, Shawn Hirn wrote:
>
>> In article <XUxEm.1517$KA5...@newsfe12.iad>, "OhioGuy"
>> <no...@none.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I was having a discussion with someone this past week, and had to
>>> admit that while I try to be frugal in nearly every part of my
>>> life, I simply want a long, hot shower - sometimes I take a half
>>> hour one. <this came up because our new house has no natural gas
>>> hookup, and I've heard that the electric water heaters can have
>>> trouble keeping up with usage> So this is probably the area where I'm not so frugal, and I allow
>>> myself to indulge.
>>
>> Me? Probably travel. I live to travel. I don't have kids or a wife,
>> but I do have a good deal of friends who also like to travel so I
>> end up taking three or four vacations a year. For example, in June,
>> I went to England to visit some relatives, then I hooked up with
>> some friends in Liverpool. In August, I spent eight days with a
>> friend in Las Vegas, then a few weeks later, I spent a weekend at
>> the beach.
> People are talking "frugal" without defining it.
It isn't possible to define it precisely.
> There used to be a woman who posted here regularly who stated outright
> she was frugal in her routine life so she could afford to go to
> Europe to speed skate each year.
Clearly not frugal.
> That seems to be a good definition,
Nope. Nothing like frugal.
> especially since it also overlaps
> with frugality being about making good purchases. If I buy
> electronic gadgetry at garage sales for very little, one could argue
> it's not frugal to do so, yet if I'm doing it it's more frugal than
> the people I'm buying them from who so badly had to have those items
> they paid top dollar for, and yet no longer want.
>
> Running a hot shower with nobody in it is not frugal, I don't think
> you there is any way to spin it in a frugal way. But if it gives
> someone pleasure, then it's hardly a bad thing.
An entirely separate matter to what is frugal.
> It likely isn't
> smart if someone has lots of debt and isn't frugal generally, but by
> being frugal generally it allows for some perks. Frugality shouldn't
> be about living a monk-like existence.
No one said it was.
Al
Anything I buy for my kid. She will be here long after I'm gone. I
want to see her enjoy things now. She turned 13 Thursday and is
carving pumpkins at the party now.
Rod Speed
> OhioGuy <n...@none.net> wrote
>> I was having a discussion with someone this past week, and had
>> to admit that while I try to be frugal in nearly every part of my life,
>> I simply want a long, hot shower - sometimes I take a half hour one.
>> <this came up because our new house has no natural gas hookup,
>> and I've heard that the electric water heaters can have trouble
>> keeping up with usage>
>> So this is probably the area where I'm not so frugal,
>> and I allow myself to indulge.
> Anything I buy for my kid. She will be here long after I'm gone.
And will be picking your nursing home.
> I want to see her enjoy things now. She turned 13 Thursday
Uh oh, are you in trouble now...
Tony Sivori
My biggest extravagance is my frequently upgraded computer and my
broadband connection.
For just about everything else, I'm a cheap bastard.
Cheap plain clothes. Eat at home (usually a simple, meatless cheap meal),
eat out no more than once a week. Brown bag my work lunch. No jewelery. No
pay TV. I still haven't bought a HDTV (but they are cheap enough now that
if my old TV broke today, I'd replace it with a low to mid range HDTV). No
land line phone. Cheap prepaid cellphone with texting turned off (if I
don't answer the phone, they can leave a voice mail). No expensive
vacations.
No debt except for my mortgage. My credit card is used only for online
purchases, and paid off fully for any month it is used. Much to the
irritation of the card issuer. :-)
I don't pay for computer software. I use Linux. It has everything I need,
at no charge. Legally.
Cheap used cars around $1000. Less house than I can afford (I bought a
rough around the edges repo at a great price). DIY for almost all car
repair and house repair and home improvement projects.
No cigarettes (I quit 22 years ago). No drugs. No gambling. I get drunk
only two or three times a year.
The dividend to this self discipline is that I have a healthy bank
account, a nice 401k, and I'm paying off my 30 year mortgage in 9 years.
If my health and my current job holds out I'll retire early and with
relative comfort.
--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
Rod Speed
> OhioGuy wrote:
>
>> I was having a discussion with someone this past week, and had to
>> admit
>> that while I try to be frugal in nearly every part of my life, I
>> simply want a long, hot shower - sometimes I take a half hour one.
>> <this came up because our new house has no natural gas hookup, and
>> I've heard that the electric water heaters can have trouble keeping
>> up with usage>
>>
>> So this is probably the area where I'm not so frugal, and I allow
>> myself
>> to indulge.
>
> My biggest extravagance is my frequently upgraded computer and my
> broadband connection.
>
> For just about everything else, I'm a cheap bastard.
>
> Cheap plain clothes. Eat at home (usually a simple, meatless cheap
> meal), eat out no more than once a week.
Once a week isnt very frugal. I dont eat out even once a year.
Napoleon
wrote:
>The dividend to this self discipline is that I have a healthy bank
>account, a nice 401k, and I'm paying off my 30 year mortgage in 9 years.
>If my health and my current job holds out I'll retire early and with
>relative comfort.
Nothing against you Tony, it's great to be debt free and be able to
retire early.
I just have to question those people who sock away money for their
"retirement" and refuse to live or enjoy life before their
"retirement." It seems the American dream is to work, work, work, and
if you're LUCKY you will live to 72 to be able to retire. Then you
can get your 401K tax free, SS, and Medicare. Then you can travel,
partake in the hobbies you always wanted to do, volunteer, build that
dream home, etc. Unfortunately, by then it is more likely you will be
sick or invalid, and be unable to do all the things you hoped for when
you were young and healthy.
Why don't people live for today instead of waiting for a tomorrow that
may never come? My father died one day before his retirement after
working for 40 years. I vowed then to live for the day and spend my
money WISELY each day instead of socking away cash and living even
more poor just so there might be a nest egg when I turn 72 (and there
is no way I'm living to retirement age, which in my case will be 76,
since everyone in my family dies young).
So, I guess I'm least frugal in that I don't have a 401k or IRA or
pension, and merely have a savings account that is used for the
present, as well as for the future.
Tony Sivori
> On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 16:36:52 -0400, Tony Sivori <TonyS...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>The dividend to this self discipline is that I have a healthy bank
>>account, a nice 401k, and I'm paying off my 30 year mortgage in 9 years.
>>If my health and my current job holds out I'll retire early and with
>>relative comfort.
>
> Nothing against you Tony, it's great to be debt free and be able to
> retire early.
>
> I just have to question those people who sock away money for their
> "retirement" and refuse to live or enjoy life before their "retirement."
You raise an excellent point. It is possible to live only for tomorrow,
never enjoying the present.
Fact is, I do enjoy my frugal life. I'm one of the fortunate people that
don't require a lot to be happy. Relaxing in my backyard, or a good read,
or a project well done all bring me substantial pleasure.
That said, make no mistake that the stores are full of shiny stuff that I
want. The difference between me and many people that I observe is that I
have come to realize that the shiny stuff brings a fleeting satisfaction.
> It seems the American dream is to work, work, work, and if you're LUCKY
> you will live to 72 to be able to retire.
Health care will be my biggest obstacle to early retirement. If
"Obamacare" passes (fingers crossed), I should be able to retire at
age 59. I'm already in my early 50's.
> Then you can get your 401K tax free, SS,
You'll pay taxes on both your 401k and Social Security. You'll just be in
a lower tax bracket.
> and Medicare. Then you can travel, partake in the hobbies you always
> wanted to do, volunteer, build that dream home, etc. Unfortunately, by
> then it is more likely you will be sick or invalid, and be unable to do
> all the things you hoped for when you were young and healthy.
>
> Why don't people live for today instead of waiting for a tomorrow that
> may never come?
Another excellent point. You are right, I (or anyone reading this) might
be run over by a truck today. It is one of my few anxieties that I may not
live long enough to see the final fruit of my labor.
Nonetheless, I think it is prudent and logical to assume in ones plans
that one will survive. If you don't, problem solved. If you do survive,
you could find yourself living in poverty.
> My father died one day before his retirement after working for 40 years.
My Father died young too. He enjoyed 10 years of early retirement before
dieing of lung cancer. If he had waited until age 72, he would have worked
until he dropped.
> I vowed then to live for the day and spend my money WISELY each day
> instead of socking away cash and living even more poor just so there
> might be a nest egg when I turn 72 (and there is no way I'm living to
> retirement age, which in my case will be 76, since everyone in my family
> dies young).
You might want to consider what your family is dying young from (for
example cardiovascular disease, cancer, etc) and make lifestyle changes
that will make the odds more in your favor.
That said, it is your life. You'll get no argument from me that you should
live it to suit yourself.
I suit myself by enjoying the simple day to day pleasures and having a
plan that will allow me to avoid working until I drop, and quitting the
rat race while I'm healthy enough to enjoy it.
m...@privacy.net
>That said, it is your life. You'll get no argument from me that you should
>live it to suit yourself.
Greta discussion!
From both sides!
Thanks
Vandy Terre
A 'fast recovery' electric hot water heater will keep up with most usage. We
use a forty gallon fast recovery and it keeps up with the washer, dish washer
and a short shower. Long showers that are the only pull on the hot water supply
can last near an hour.
I am not so sure it not frugal to take the occasional (one a week or less
often), long, hot shower. If taking such a shower reduces mental or physical
fatigue, then it is less expensive than a doctor visit and medications.
Vandy Terre
How do you believe this? A good used car is less to insure, less to maintain
because factory problems have already been solved, often half or less than the
price of a new car purchase. Finding a good used vehicle is not easy.
Look for:
-low wear on the driver seat (high wear may mean a lot more miles than showing)
-undercarriage damage (may mean vehicle was used rough in very rough terrain)
-body damage (minor damage, no real problem. major damage may mean internal
systems have also taken damage)
-no transmission noise and clean fluid, make sure it is shifting smoothly (metal
slivers a real bad sign, walk away)
-clean engine oil and clean engine, avoid engines with lots of leaks
-vehicle identification numbers match title numbers
-identification of owner matches title
-brake fluid clean and full, brakes working correctly in test drive
Rod Speed
It doesnt have to be one or the other, it can be both.
Corse it helps to get qualified in an area that pays better than the worst jobs.
tmclone
Agreed, although I think if you really want to be in hot water for 30
minutes or more, you might get more out of a hot bath instead of a
shower, both with water usage and sensory satisfaction. I'm the
opposite. I LOVE to swim, but I simply can't be in water for more than
5-10 minutes before I become a giant prune, so 4-5 laps and short
showers are the most I can handle :)
Rod Speed
> Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote
>> People are talking "frugal" without defining it.
> The topic's been discussed ad naseum in the NG for years and
> years. Although, it is doubtful that any single definition would
> satisfy everyone the consensus always has been that whatever,
> subjectively, yields the greatest return, efficient use of resources,
> or higest level of user satisfaction at the time is "frugality".
Its much more complicated than that, particularly what
distinguishes frugality from stinginess/tight as a fish's arsehole.
Rod Speed
> If so certain about this:
>> It isn't possible to define it precisely.
> Then how the certainty about this:
>> Clearly not frugal.
> Or this:
>> Nope. Nothing like frugal.
The word PRECISELY was there for a reason.
If you still dont get it, it would be profitable to explain it to a stone.
Ohioguy
>age 59. I'm already in my early 50's.
If Obama's big Socialist/Communist Crapshoot passes, I expect that,
due to the higher taxes to pay for it, I'll end up having to work an
extra 4 or 5 years until retirement.
Rod Speed
>> If "Obamacare" passes (fingers crossed), I should be able to retire at age 59. I'm already in my early 50's.
> If Obama's big Socialist/Communist Crapshoot passes,
You wouldnt know what communist was if it bit you on your lard arse.
Hint: NOT ONE communist country had anything like what he proposes.
> I expect that, due to the higher taxes to pay for it, I'll end up having to work an extra 4 or 5 years until
> retirement.
More fool you. Every other modern first and second world country
gets their health care for HALF the percentage of GDP that the
US spends and most of them retire earlier than USians do too.
Tony Sivori
>
> If Obama's big Socialist/Communist Crapshoot passes, I expect that,
> due to the higher taxes to pay for it, I'll end up having to work an
> extra 4 or 5 years until retirement.
But Bush bailing out Wall Street, Banks, Mortgage Companies, Insurance
Companies, General Motors, Chrysler, to the tune of $4.6 Trillions was ok?
How about his twin $918 Billion dollar wars? Which we've been
waging longer than World War II, but are nowhere near winning.
Bin Laden is still wasting oxygen. Sadam Hussien had NOTHING to do with
9/11/2001.
Bush ruined this country, squandered our future, squandered our
international standing, and has turned the country into a police state. He
will go down in history as the worst president to ever disgrace that
office.
And we still can't afford decent health care for every citizen. Suddenly,
when the topic of universal health care comes up, the Republicans discover
fiscal conservatism. Wonderful.
Cites for above numbers:
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home
http://boingboing.net/2008/11/25/bailout-costs-more-t.html
Napoleon
> If Obama's big Socialist/Communist Crapshoot passes, I expect that,
>due to the higher taxes to pay for it, I'll end up having to work an
>extra 4 or 5 years until retirement.
If only it was socialized medicine - then your tax increase would go
to providing services for YOU! IMAGINE! Single-payer, socialized
medicine means you no longer pay the extortion fees to the insurance
company, which means most americans will save a tremendous amount of
money a month. In return taxes would go up, but NOWHERE NEAR THE
AMOUNT YOU CURRENTLY PAY IN "INSURANCE PREMIUMS." Plus, you no longer
have to pay any doctor's bills along with the insurance extortion fee.
I challenge anyone to show me how socialized medicine will be BAD for
them. It's only bad for people who are uninformed about the current
insurance scam.
Now, you are correct that if the current bill passes you'll still have
work, work, work until retirement (when that DREADED SOCIALIZED
MEDICINE OF MEDICARE KICKS IN - if you don't like socialized medicine,
you should turn it down, or you will be a hypocrite). Because now your
taxes will go to subsidizing the corporate insurance companies (that
is not socialism, but fascism), and you still have to pay the
extortion of private insurance companies, and pay the doctors bills
along with the extortion. Yes, you'll have to work, work, work,
because America loves its PRIVATE ENTERPRISE SUPPORTED BY TAXPAYER
DOLLARS!
Get real people, and learn the facts. Other countries have socialized
medicine and their citizens are still alive, and much happier than
Americans.
m...@privacy.net
>Bush ruined this country, squandered our future, squandered our
>international standing, and has turned the country into a police state. He
>will go down in history as the worst president to ever disgrace that
>office.
Why is there ALWAYS money for war..... but none for
anything good?
Rod Speed
> Tony Sivori <TonyS...@yahoo.com> wrote
There isnt always, thats why the US gave up on
Iraq and will eventually give up on Afghanistan too.
> but none for anything good?
There is money for that if things are bad enough. There was money for the TVA etc during
the great depression and for the Marshall Plan after WW2 which completely eliminated any
possibility of either Japan or Germany going for another world war another generation later.
Even the shrub did have some money for some good things after the GFC.
zxcvbob
> Why don't people live for today instead of waiting for a tomorrow that
> may never come? My father died one day before his retirement after
> working for 40 years. I vowed then to live for the day and spend my
> money WISELY each day instead of socking away cash and living even
> more poor just so there might be a nest egg when I turn 72 (and there
> is no way I'm living to retirement age, which in my case will be 76,
> since everyone in my family dies young).
I kind of agree with you; the key is not /borrowing/ from your future
to live for today. Dave Ramsey and others like him tell you to
scrounge now so you can live it up later, but then they never define
when "later" is. That always bugs me. "Later" for me is 2 or 3 years
from now:
I'm in cheap bastard mode until my kid gets out of college -- 2 1/2
more years, or 3 at the most. I want her to graduate without a
student loan. (Or she can go choose to go to graduate school and
borrow for that.) I'm totally debt-free, have enough cash savings to
live without income for a year, and my retirement funds are not doing
too well in the market but they are fully funded. BTW, in the work
that I'm in I will probably lose my job ("downsizing") long before I'm
eligible for retirement and won't be able to find another, that's why
such a large nest-egg. Of course the college sees that money and
thinks it's entitled to it, so no financial aid for DD <grrr>
I give pretty generously to my church and other charities. This is
very important to keep me from turning into Scrooge. :-) I also find
that when I'm not constantly out buying new toys, I appreciate the few
toys I do get, plus I don't have to worry about paying for them.
Bob
Rod Speed
> Napoleon wrote
>> Why don't people live for today instead of waiting for a tomorrow
>> that may never come? My father died one day before his retirement
>> after working for 40 years. I vowed then to live for the day and
>> spend my money WISELY each day instead of socking away cash and living even more poor just so there might be a nest
>> egg when I turn 72 (and there is no way I'm living to retirement age, which in my case will be 76, since everyone in
>> my family dies young).
> I kind of agree with you;
I dont.
> the key is not /borrowing/ from your future to live for today.
The real key is to do both make adequate provision for your time
past working, and live well while you are still young as well.
Its prefectly possible, although certainly a decent income makes that a lot easier to do.
> Dave Ramsey and others like him tell you to scrounge now so you can live it up later, but then they never define when
> "later" is. That always bugs me. "Later" for me is 2 or 3 years from now:
Depends on how old you are.
m...@privacy.net
> Dave Ramsey and others like him tell you to
>scrounge now so you can live it up later,
How does he feel abt school loans? Or mortgages? Pay
as you go.... or borrow?
frie...@zoocrewphoto.com
> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:38:12 -0400, Ohioguy <n...@none.net> wrote:
> > If Obama's big Socialist/Communist Crapshoot passes, I expect that,
> >due to the higher taxes to pay for it, I'll end up having to work an
> >extra 4 or 5 years until retirement.
>
> If only it was socialized medicine - then your tax increase would go
> to providing services for YOU! IMAGINE! Single-payer, socialized
> medicine means you no longer pay the extortion fees to the insurance
> company, which means most americans will save a tremendous amount of
> money a month.
Really? Do you think my employer will give me a huge raise to
compensate for not giving me insurance anymore? I seriously doubt
that. Right now, I pay $365 a year for my insurance, and my employer
pays the rest. With a single payer system, I will pay more than $365
in new taxes, and my wages will not go up. So, I will have no
increased money, and my insurance coverage is likely to be less than
what I have now. I like what I have. I worked hard for it. My contract
expires next May. I fully expect our insurance to get dumped, and we
will simply have to accept it. Nobody can afford to lose their job
right now.
Find a way to help people get insurance if they can't get it right
now. Subsidize them. But don't ruin it for the rest of us.
Gary Heston
Napoleon <ana...@666yes.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>Get real people, and learn the facts.
You first. You're so delusional it's laughable.
> Other countries have socialized
>medicine and their citizens are still alive, and much happier than
>Americans.
Start by looking at the economies of some of those other countries; they're
collapsing under the cost of those socialized medicine plans.
If Obamas' plan was such a good idea, he and Congress would be signing
up for it.
Gary
--
Gary Heston ghe...@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
"Where large, expensive pieces of exotic woods are converted to valueless,
hard to dispose of sawdust, chips and scraps." Charlie B.s' definition of
woodworking.
Rod Speed
And you will then be able to use what Congress decides to do.
> Find a way to help people get insurance if they can't get it right now. Subsidize them.
That cant fly. The US already spends TWICE the percentage of GDP on health
care costs that every other modern first and second world country does and gets
an worse result on any sensible measure like longevity and years in good health etc.
> But don't ruin it for the rest of us.
Its already ruined for the rest of you.
Rod Speed
> Napoleon <ana...@666yes.net> wrote
>> Get real people, and learn the facts.
> You first. You're so delusional it's laughable.
>> Other countries have socialized medicine and their
>> citizens are still alive, and much happier than Americans.
> Start by looking at the economies of some of those other countries;
> they're collapsing under the cost of those socialized medicine plans.
You cant list even a single one which is.
> If Obamas' plan was such a good idea, he and Congress would be signing up for it.
Nope, theirs is even better.
ChairMan
Balvenieman <balve...@invalid.net>spewed forth:
> ghe...@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston) wrote:
>
>> Start by looking at the economies of some of those other countries;
>> they're collapsing under the cost of those socialized medicine plans.
> IME, exchanges with the mantra-chanting mindless minions is a waste
> because their minds are made up and not to be confused by actual
> facts. Having been thoroughly indoctrinated that individual
> accomplishment, self-reliance and personal responsibility for ones
> own wellbeing are, in some way, "unfair" and to be eliminated
> whenever possible, they're impervious to reason and unable to learn
> by example or to grasp the simplest of causal relationships.
> Remember: Uncle Sugar's gonna put those evil rich bastards who stole
> everybody's stuff in their places and everything will be free, free,
> free, because, after all "everything is everybody's". Everyone has a
> "right" to a "good" job, home ownership, medical care, a full tummy,
> and -- heaven help us -- a cell phone! Can a right to designer jeans
> be far behind?
> Those who need most to understand the likes of Thomas Sowell, for
> example, or Milton Friedman, are not likely ever to read either of
> them but you may find this series -- which started on Wed, 28
> October -- to be of some interest.
> http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=510506
Speaking of cell phones,
TAX PAYER MONEY IS BEING
REDISTRIBUTED TO WELFARE RECIPIENTS FOR FREE CELL PHONES.
The "Obama phone" was and he went on to say that welfare recipients are
now
eligible to receive (1) a FREE new phone and (2) approx 70 minutes of
FREE minutes every month.
This program was started earlier this year.
Enough is enough, the ship is sinking and
it's sinking fast. The very foundations that this country was built on
are being shaken. The age old concepts of God, family, and hard work
have flown out the window and are being replaced with "Hope and
Change" and "Change we can believe in." You can click on the link
below to read more about the "Obama phone"!
https://www.safelinkwireless.com/EnrollmentPublic/Home.aspx
Rod Speed
> ghe...@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston) wrote
>> Start by looking at the economies of some of those other countries;
>> they're collapsing under the cost of those socialized medicine plans.
> Alas, you piss into the wind, Gary; but, surely you know that, eh?
> IME, exchanges with the mantra-chanting mindless minions is a waste
> because their minds are made up and not to be confused by actual facts.
Yes, but even if you could change their minds, its still a complete
waste because they never get any say on what Congress will do etc.
Napoleon
<frie...@zoocrewphoto.com> wrote:
>Really? Do you think my employer will give me a huge raise to
>compensate for not giving me insurance anymore? I seriously doubt
>that.
Then quit. Imagine if people could leave their shitty jobs that pay
shitty wages because they have portable health insurance. Guess what
would happen? Employers would raise wages knowing that they can't give
the "BUT WE PROVIDE HEALTH BENEFITS" excuse, because the market would
demand it, since the good employees could now go to higher paying
jobs, or start their own businesses.
> Right now, I pay $365 a year for my insurance, and my employer
>pays the rest. With a single payer system, I will pay more than $365
>in new taxes, and my wages will not go up.
Like I said - Quit. I wouldn't stay in a job that wouldn't raise pay
when the business now is not required to pay for your health
insurance.
>So, I will have no
>increased money, and my insurance coverage is likely to be less than
>what I have now. I like what I have. I worked hard for it. My contract
>expires next May. I fully expect our insurance to get dumped, and we
>will simply have to accept it. Nobody can afford to lose their job
>right now.
So, who cares if your insurance is dumped. Find new insurance in the
private market - quit getting subsidized by your employer.Obviously
you don't like socialized medicine, so the free market health
insurance industry should be perfect for you. Let me know how much it
costs per month once you're out on your own, then compare it with how
much your taxes would go up under single payer. Good luck with that.
Oh, BTW, the current bills are NOT SINGLE PAYER. They are shit, just
like what we have now.
>Find a way to help people get insurance if they can't get it right
>now. Subsidize them. But don't ruin it for the rest of us.
There will come a day ...
Napoleon
wrote:
>You first. You're so delusional it's laughable.
I notice you have no facts of your own. Typical.
>Start by looking at the economies of some of those other countries; they're
>collapsing under the cost of those socialized medicine plans.
Ha ha, ha. So funny, it's pathetic. You should get out of America more
often. I've been all over the world and when I talk to "dem furriners"
they are MORE THAN CONTENT with their healthcare and lives. If
anyone's country's economy is collapsing it's the US. Norway,
Australia, France, Canada, etc. etc are doing fine and had more growth
than the US has had for years.
>If Obamas' plan was such a good idea, he and Congress would be signing
>up for it.
Obama and Congress do have socialized medicine. You pay for it. I
guess you don't want your own tax money to go to you. Oh well. I
prefer not to be a masochist and would like the same health benefits
the government employees get, since it is my tax money paying for it.
zxcvbob
I don't know about school loans. I assume a 529 plan supplemented by
pay-as-you-go.
He says to always get a 15 year fixed mortgage ("don't get a 30 year
mortgage and say you'll pay it off in 15; ain't gonna happen") I
guess I'm a loser for qualifying for a 15 year loan but getting a 20,
then paid it off in 120 months.
I usually agree with most of what he says, like his method of paying
off your debts, etc, but he sure can be obnoxious about it. (At least
he's not as irritating as Suze Orman.) The thing he does that chaps
me the most is assumes a 12% annual return on stock mutual funds. The
annualized rate of return on the S&P 500 for the past 10 years is
actually negative, and most mutual funds haven't even kept up with the
indexes.
Bob
Gary Heston
Balvenieman <balve...@invalid.net> wrote:
>ghe...@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston) wrote:
>>Start by looking at the economies of some of those other countries; they're
>>collapsing under the cost of those socialized medicine plans.
> Alas, you piss into the wind, Gary; but, surely you know that, eh?
Sure. However, if someone doesn't counter their drivel regularly, they
conclude everyone agrees with them.
>IME, exchanges with the mantra-chanting mindless minions is a waste
>because their minds are made up and not to be confused by actual facts.
>Having been thoroughly indoctrinated that individual accomplishment,
>self-reliance and personal responsibility for ones own wellbeing are, in
>some way, "unfair" and to be eliminated whenever possible, they're
>impervious to reason and unable to learn by example or to grasp the
>simplest of causal relationships. Remember: Uncle Sugar's gonna put
>those evil rich bastards who stole everybody's stuff in their places and
>everything will be free, free, free, because, after all "everything is
>everybody's". Everyone has a "right" to a "good" job, home ownership,
>medical care, a full tummy, and -- heaven help us -- a cell phone! Can a
>right to designer jeans be far behind?
Not if Pelosi and Clinton have anything to do with it.
> Those who need most to understand the likes of Thomas Sowell, for
>example, or Milton Friedman, are not likely ever to read either of them
>but you may find this series -- which started on Wed, 28 October -- to
>be of some interest.
>http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=510506
I'll have a look at it; I've probably already seen part of it.
Thanks,
Gary Heston
Napoleon <ana...@666yes.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:16:52 -0500, ghe...@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)
>wrote:
>>You first. You're so delusional it's laughable.
>I notice you have no facts of your own. Typical.
Of course, you're "entitled" to have everything handed to you:
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=510810#at
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=510720#at
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=510575#at
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=510340#at
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=510094#at
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=510102#at
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=510031#at
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/10/29/pelosi-unveiling-health-govt-option/
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article4967571.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/Swine_flu/article6739528.ece#at
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/Swine_flu/article6739176.ece#at
>>Start by looking at the economies of some of those other countries; they're
>>collapsing under the cost of those socialized medicine plans.
>Ha ha, ha. So funny, it's pathetic. You should get out of America more
>often. I've been all over the world and when I talk to "dem furriners"
>they are MORE THAN CONTENT with their healthcare and lives.
I've traveled; Canada, Europe (including Great Britian), Australia,
New Zealand.
Ever talk to anyone that actually had to use it for a serious illness?
They might have a different perspective.
Princess Dianas' family and friends weren't real happy with the care
she received in France following the accident--and she was someone
important.
> If
>anyone's country's economy is collapsing it's the US. Norway,
>Australia, France, Canada, etc. etc are doing fine and had more growth
>than the US has had for years.
>>If Obamas' plan was such a good idea, he and Congress would be signing
>>up for it.
>Obama and Congress do have socialized medicine. You pay for it.
Yes; however, what they get bears no resemblence to what they're
trying to foist off on the average American citizen.
> I
>guess you don't want your own tax money to go to you. Oh well. I
>prefer not to be a masochist and would like the same health benefits
>the government employees get, since it is my tax money paying for it.
The federal employees union is calling on their membership--all those
bureaucrats we're paying--to oppose getting stuck with the proposed
"reform" plan, as they'd lose a great deal of their benefits.
What's proposed for us taxpayers isn't anywhere close to what the civil
service is getting, either.
Rod Speed
I have, and a number of those I know have too.
> They might have a different perspective.
Not one of those I know do.
> Princess Dianas' family and friends weren't real happy with the care she
> received in France following the accident--and she was someone important.
She's stupid enough to get involved in a massive car accident at one hell
of a speed, hitting an immovable object when not wearing a seatbelt and
with no airbags, there's fuck all anyone can do about that even in the US.
>> anyone's country's economy is collapsing it's the US. Norway,
>> Australia, France, Canada, etc. etc are doing fine and had more
>> growth than the US has had for years.
>>> If Obamas' plan was such a good idea, he and Congress would be signing up for it.
>> Obama and Congress do have socialized medicine. You pay for it.
> Yes; however, what they get bears no resemblence to what
> they're trying to foist off on the average American citizen.
Yes, but you're already part of the medicare system, even tho you
may not be qualified to use it yet. It works quite adequately, and a
hell of a lot better than no health insurance for those of that age.
>> guess you don't want your own tax money to go to you. Oh well. I
>> prefer not to be a masochist and would like the same health benefits
>> the government employees get, since it is my tax money paying for it.
> The federal employees union is calling on their membership--all those
> bureaucrats we're paying--to oppose getting stuck with the proposed
> "reform" plan, as they'd lose a great deal of their benefits.
Their problem.
> What's proposed for us taxpayers isn't anywhere close to what the
> civil service is getting, either.
You're free to keep using what you are currently happy with except if
you prefer to not bother with any form of insurance at all except medicare.
Napoleon
wrote:
>What's proposed for us taxpayers isn't anywhere close to what the civil
>service is getting, either.
That's what I already said. The current bills are SHIT, and ARE NOT
SINGLE PAYER SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. America, will someday (long after
I'm dead) adopt socialized medicine. It's inevitable. America can no
longer compete with every other industrialized country on the planet,
which subsidizes its workforce with socialized medicine.
It'll happen, because what we have now is only getting worse and
worse. And one good thing about the current bills is that they are SO
BAD, they will push Americans to want socialized medicine even more.
Once we're all sick of being forced to pay outrageous fees to private
insurance companies, we'll wake up. Someday.
Ohioguy
government decides what is best for us in any form. I'm already annoyed
that this country seems to be becoming a "nanny state". Let each family
decide what they want to do with their money. Communism/socialism is a
failed system that takes away personal freedom and personal
responsibility. It encourages people to be lazy, and to think of the
state as the answer and arbiter of all problems. In other words, it is
contrary to everything this country was founded on.
Social Security is anything but. My grandparents probably got more
out than they paid in, but I doubt that can be said of those who will be
retiring in 20 years or more. It is a pyramid scheme, and nothing more.
The main reason I say this is because there is no independent panel
holding the purse-strings, and keeping congress from getting their hands
on the money - leaving IOU's instead.
I think most of our problems started with letting Congress start
taking their taxes out of our wages before we see the money. They
started thinking of it as "their" money, instead of "our" money.
We need a flat tax, or a fair tax. A fair tax would allow people to
decide how much taxes they pay, by deciding how many things they buy.
If they decide to do without, or keep making do with something older,
they would pay fewer taxes.
Yes, at this point I am against the continuing wars overseas. I
think that Iraq is a false entity, propped up originally by the British
Empire. It should simply be divided into 3 countries, and they should
let each one determine its own future. Having done that in the first
place would have saved us a lot of time and money.
One of you pointed out the totalitarian things undergone during Bush's
presidency. I agree with most of your points today, despite having
voted for him twice. I am especially against putting spy cameras at
most of the traffic lights. What are we - all potential criminals,
until proven innocent? I guess 1984 should have been dated a quarter
century later.
In short, smaller government, and give the people more freedom to
make their own choices and let each family control their own destiny.
Cut the red tape.
Ohioguy
>insurance companies, we'll wake up. Someday.
Who is forced? I went for 15 years with no insurance, and didn't
need any. The only reason why we CHOSE to get insurance through work
was that we were trying to have kids. Good choice, since we've had 3
now in the past 6 years, and the cost of paying for all the fees and
such out of pocket would have been much higher than paying with cash.
I've started a health savings account recently, and much prefer to
pay for high deductible health care like this.
Rod Speed
> I'm against any sort of socialized/communist system where the government decides what is best for us in any form.
So you are against the US constitution ?
> I'm already annoyed that this country seems to be becoming a "nanny state".
It might try to do that, and most just ignore any
attempts to do that, most obviously with illegal drugs.
> Let each family decide what they want to do with their money.
That produces a problem with how to pay for what
the voters have decided they want the govt to do.
> Communism/socialism is a failed system
Communism certainly is, socialism certainly isnt.
EVERY economy is a mix of capitalism and socialism, even HongKong
before it was handed back to china was and the US has been that in
spades for centurys now, most obviousy with public education, the
police, military, fire services, etc etc etc.
That mixture of capitalism and socialism is not only nothing
even remotely resembling anything like a failed system, its
the only thing thats worked well in the last few thousand years.
> that takes away personal freedom and personal responsibility.
Pig ignorant like with the mix of capitalism and socialism
EVERY country has had for thousands of years now.
> It encourages people to be lazy, and to think of the state as the answer and arbiter of all problems.
You can make the same stupid pig ignorant claim about states in general.
They do however work a hell of a lot better than complete anarchy.
> In other words, it is contrary to everything this country was founded on.
Another pig ignorant lie.
> Social Security is anything but.
Its a hell of a lot better than no social safetynet at all.
> My grandparents probably got more out than they paid in, but I doubt that can be said of those who will be retiring in
> 20 years or more.
More fool you.
> It is a pyramid scheme, and nothing more.
You wouldnt know what a real pyramid scheme was if one bit you on your lard arse.
> The main reason I say this is because there is no independent
> panel holding the purse-strings, and keeping congress from getting their hands on the money - leaving IOU's instead.
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you
dont have a fucking clue about how it actually works.
Its not an accumulation system.
> I think most of our problems started with letting Congress start
> taking their taxes out of our wages before we see the money.
There is no viable alternative.
> They started thinking of it as "their" money, instead of "our" money.
Mindlessly silly. Is the only viable way to collect taxes on wages.
> We need a flat tax,
Nope, those are obscenely regressive. The poor pay a
MUCH higher percentage of their discretionary cash in tax.
> or a fair tax.
Thats what a progressive income tax is.
> A fair tax would allow people to decide how much taxes they pay, by deciding how many things they buy.
Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
> If they decide to do without, or keep making do with something older, they would pay fewer taxes.
Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
> Yes, at this point I am against the continuing wars overseas. I think that Iraq is a false entity, propped up
> originally by the
> British Empire.
It wasnt propped up by that, it was a creation of the British, and not the British Empire either.
> It should simply be divided into 3 countries, and
> they should let each one determine its own future.
They tried that with India, that produced MILLIONS OF CORPSES.
> Having done that in the first place would have saved us a lot of time and money.
The US gets no say what so ever on how Iraq is organised.
> One of you pointed out the totalitarian things undergone during Bush's presidency.
You wouldnt know what a real totalitarian regime was if one bit you on your lard arse.
> I agree with most of your points today, despite having voted for him twice. I am especially against putting spy
> cameras at most of the traffic lights.
The shrub never did that.
> What are we - all potential criminals, until proven innocent?
Nope, just individuals that flout the road laws when we can get away with doing that.
> I guess 1984 should have been dated a quarter century later.
Guess again.
> In short, smaller government, and give the people more freedom to
> make their own choices and let each family control their own destiny.
Nothing to stop you doing that any time you like right now.
> Cut the red tape.
Slash your wrists.
Napoleon
> >Once we're all sick of being forced to pay outrageous fees to private
> >insurance companies, we'll wake up. Someday.
>
> Who is forced? I went for 15 years with no insurance, and didn't
>need any.
Um... the new bills REQUIRE you to buy private insurance. You'll have
to get rid of your HSA and buy insurance. Or keep your HSA and buy
insurance, either way you're buying insurance. Have fun!
Rod Speed
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:46:30 -0400, Ohioguy <no...@none.net> wrote:
>
>>> Once we're all sick of being forced to pay outrageous fees to
>>> private insurance companies, we'll wake up. Someday.
>>
>> Who is forced? I went for 15 years with no insurance, and didn't
>> need any.
>
> Um... the new bills REQUIRE you to buy private insurance.
And it remains to be seen if that will get thru congress.
Rally2xs
>
> > or afair tax.
>
> Thats what a progressive income tax is.
>
>
> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
>
> > If they decide to do without, or keep making do with something older, they would pay fewer taxes.
>
> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
Have you read about the fair tax? The poor don't even pay it. Even
better, they 1) Get to keep every cent they make and 2) Experience
about a 22% discount over what they're paying now for goods and
services manufactured, mined, or grown in this country.
It's WAY better than the supposed "progressive" income tax. It's
actually a subsidy for the poor. Nobody ever pays the full fair tax
rate (23% the 1st year, close to that subsequent years) buy Bill Gates
might pay maybe 22.999999999%.
With the fair tax, we could bring prosperity back to the USA - the
prosperity that the income tax has been choking out of the country for
the last 50 years or so.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>>> or afair tax.
>> Thats what a progressive income tax is.
>>> Afair taxwould allow people to decide how much taxes
>>> they pay, by deciding how many things they buy.
>> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
>>> If they decide to do without, or keep making do
>>> with something older, they would pay fewer taxes.
>> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
> Have you read about the fair tax?
Yep.
> The poor don't even pay it.
Depends on what you call the poor.
> Even better, they 1) Get to keep every cent they make and
> 2) Experience about a 22% discount over what they're paying now for
> goods and services manufactured, mined, or grown in this country.
Not even possible to raise the amount currently raised in taxes that way.
And it only applys to federal income tax anyway, doesnt do a damned thing about the
very substantial property taxes that most USians pay directly or indirectly in their rent etc.
> It's WAY better than the supposed "progressive" income tax.
Nope. And there is nothing supposed about the progressive
income tax that all modern first and second world countrys have.
> It's actually a subsidy for the poor.
Why should those who choose to be poor by not bothering to work be subsidised ?
> Nobody ever pays the full fair tax rate (23% the 1st year, close to that
> subsequent years) buy Bill Gates might pay maybe 22.999999999%.
Bill Gates is completely irrelevant to real world tax regimes.
> With the fair tax, we could bring prosperity back to the USA
Nope, far too many would choose to be poor and bludge off everyone else.
> - the prosperity that the income tax has been choking out of the country for the last 50 years or so.
Mindlessly silly. Prosperity hasnt been anything even remotely resembling choked off.
JonquilJan
of trying to tame her, and she was pregnant at the time. I buy the best I
can for her and her offspring as far as food and litter and toys.
They are my family.
JonquilJan
Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying
Rally2xs
> Rally2xs wrote
>
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
> >>> or afair tax.
> >> Thats what a progressive income tax is.
> >>> Afair taxwould allow people to decide how much taxes
> >>> they pay, by deciding how many things they buy.
> >> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
> >>> If they decide to do without, or keep making do
> >>> with something older, they would pay fewer taxes.
> >> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
>
> Yep.
>
> > The poor don't even pay it.
>
> Depends on what you call the poor.
poor <= poverty level.
> > Even better, they 1) Get to keep every cent they make and
> > 2) Experience about a 22% discount over what they're paying now for
> > goods and services manufactured, mined, or grown in this country.
>
> Not even possible to raise the amount currently raised in taxes that way.
Well, that's rather off-handed. People with PHD's after their names
say we can. What makes you think we can't?
> And it only applys to federal income tax anyway, doesnt do a damned thing about the
> very substantial property taxes that most USians pay directly or indirectly in their rent etc.
Nope, but the poperty tax is not what's driving jobs overseas. The
income tax is. Getting rid of the corporate income tax will be a
large factor in keeping jobs here, and gettng the ones that left to
return.
> > It's WAY better than the supposed "progressive" income tax.
>
> Nope. And there is nothing supposed about the progressive
> income tax that all modern first and second world countrys have.
Is. And the income tax is not as progressive as the Fair Tax. That
is, unless you want to use the tax system to really stick it to the
rich. The Fair Tax is not good for punishing anyone.
> > It's actually a subsidy for the poor.
>
> Why should those who choose to be poor by not bothering to work be subsidised ?
They are working, most of 'em, they just don't make jack squat for
wages in this idiot "service economy."
> > Nobody ever pays the fullfair taxrate (23% the 1st year, close to that
> > subsequent years) buy Bill Gates might pay maybe 22.999999999%.
>
> Bill Gates is completely irrelevant to real world tax regimes.
Well, its the Democrats that always start whining about "The Rich"
every time anyone talks about the Fair Tax, and I can't think of
anyone richer, so used him. But anyway, the poverty level for a
family of 4 is about $26,000, so a family of 4 making $52,000 only
pays 1/2 the fair tax rate, effectively, as a maximum. If they buy
anything used, they pay even less. A family of 4 at $78,000 pays only
2/3rds the Fair Tax rate. Etc. Its a _very_ progressive tax.
>
> > With thefair tax, we could bring prosperity back to the USA
>
> Nope, far too many would choose to be poor and bludge off everyone else.
And I say they wouldn't.
There's tons of ex-factory workers that would work like dogs if they
could just get a job that they know how to do. Bring factories back,
and there's people that will get some ladders and hand tools and plumb
and wire it up faster than you can say Jack Robinson. Just don't
expect 'em to "retrain" to do prostate specific antigen tests in a
laboratory, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen. That's just not who they are.
If we don't get back jobs where people can work with their hands,
instead of having to have this elite workforce that can do calculus
and program computers and such, we're going to have a permanent
underclass in this country. That's bad for them 'cuz poverty sucks
and it's bad for us because we end up supporting them to at least a
certain extent. It drags the whole country down.
> > - the prosperity that the income tax has been choking out of the country for the last 50 years or so.
>
> Mindlessly silly. Prosperity hasnt been anything even remotely resembling choked off.
Not by a long shot. Prosperity is flagging and getting worse. The
last big thing that allowed Americans to earn a big income was the
software development that went overseas about 10 years ago. Go to
your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. Find the computer
section. Pitiful, isn't it? There AREN'T any big-paying jobs even
for the intellectually elite, unles they've got a masters or better.
Back in the 60's, a man could be prosperous all by himself while
working a factory job, supporting his family while his wife stayed
home. Now it takes both husband and wife working, and sometimes one
or more working two jobs, to be able to live that way. And that isn't
even comparable, since the family in the 60's had more leisure time.
Hard to take a family vacation from 2 or 3 jobs at once.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> Rally2xs wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> or afair tax.
>>>> Thats what a progressive income tax is.
>>>>> Afair taxwould allow people to decide how much taxes
>>>>> they pay, by deciding how many things they buy.
>>>> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
>>>>> If they decide to do without, or keep making do
>>>>> with something older, they would pay fewer taxes.
>>>> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
>>> Have you read about thefair tax?
>> Yep.
>>> The poor don't even pay it.
>> Depends on what you call the poor.
> poor <= poverty level.
Thats just playing with words. There is no 'poverty level'
that separates the real poor from everyone else. Plenty
who are below the 'poverty level' arent actually poor at all.
>>> Even better, they 1) Get to keep every cent they make and
>>> 2) Experience about a 22% discount over what they're paying now for
>>> goods and services manufactured, mined, or grown in this country.
>> Not even possible to raise the amount currently raised in taxes that way.
> Well, that's rather off-handed.
Its a fact.
> People with PHD's after their names say we can.
I know plenty of fools with PhDs.
> What makes you think we can't?
The sales tax rate required to be revenue neutral is so high that it isnt viable.
>> And it only applys to federal income tax anyway, doesnt do
>> a damned thing about the very substantial property taxes
>> that most USians pay directly or indirectly in their rent etc.
> Nope, but the poperty tax is not what's driving jobs overseas. The income tax is.
Pig ignorant lie.
What is driving SOME jobs overseas is the fact that americans
are paid a hell of a lot more than what is paid to the lowest paid
workers in places like china and no change to the US tax system
will ever do a damned thing about that massive difference.
> Getting rid of the corporate income tax will be a large factor
> in keeping jobs here, and gettng the ones that left to return.
Pig ignorant lie. The countrys that have no corporate income
tax STILL buy their low cost consumer goods from china.
>>> It's WAY better than the supposed "progressive" income tax.
>> Nope. And there is nothing supposed about the progressive
>> income tax that all modern first and second world countrys have.
> Is.
Isnt.
> And the income tax is not as progressive as the Fair Tax.
Another lie. The other very fundamental problme with the 'fair tax' which
is in fact nothing even remotely resembling anything like fair, is that
there is just ONE break in the tax scale, the value of the prebate.
> That is, unless you want to use the tax system to really stick it to the rich.
That doesnt work either, they just move their money out of the
country and that fucks employment very comprehensively indeed.
> The Fair Tax is not good for punishing anyone.
It punishes the economy, stupid. Esssentially because it punished
the prices everyone pays with a massive visible sales tax and that
substantially slashes consumer spending. In spades with the more
expensive stuff that consumers buy, houses and cars.
>>> It's actually a subsidy for the poor.
>> Why should those who choose to be poor by not bothering to work be subsidised ?
> They are working, most of 'em,
Another lie. A massive percentage of the population does
not in fact work at all, even if you just count the adults.
> they just don't make jack squat for wages in this idiot "service economy."
Nothing idiot about it. We will never again see any modern first
or second world country with a significant percentage of work in
manufacturing, just like we wont see that in agriculture ever again either.
You clowns are furiously living in the past that LONG gone now, never to return.
Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wont get manufacturing jobs back from china,
essentially because the chinese are paid vastly less than the US minimum wage.
In spades than what auto 'workers' etc are paid.
>>> Nobody ever pays the fullfair taxrate (23% the 1st year, close to that
>>> subsequent years) buy Bill Gates might pay maybe 22.999999999%.
>> Bill Gates is completely irrelevant to real world tax regimes.
> Well, its the Democrats that always start whining about
> "The Rich" every time anyone talks about the Fair Tax,
Who cares ? Those fools have never ever had a fucking clue either.
'the rich' are a tiny part of the total tax take, basically because there are so few of them.
> and I can't think of anyone richer, so used him.
More fool you. What matters is the total income tax take from 'the rich'
> But anyway, the poverty level for a family of 4 is about $26,000,
Mindlessly superficial, most obviously with those that
own their own house and dont have a very big income,
but who grow their own food etc. Those are anything
even remotely resembling anything like 'in poverty'
> so a family of 4 making $52,000 only pays
> 1/2 the fair tax rate, effectively, as a maximum.
Which is a hell of a lot more than those on that income currently pay in income tax.
> If they buy anything used, they pay even less. A family of 4 at $78,000
> pays only 2/3rds the Fair Tax rate. Etc. Its a _very_ progressive tax.
And completely fucked, because of its effect on what people pay for cars and houses etc.
Which just happen to be items that are mostly still made in america.
>>> With thefair tax, we could bring prosperity back to the USA
>> Nope, far too many would choose to be poor and bludge off everyone else.
> And I say they wouldn't.
More fool you. Hordes are ALREADY doing that RIGHT NOW.
Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax would make that MUCH worse.
> There's tons of ex-factory workers that would work like
> dogs if they could just get a job that they know how to do.
And your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wouldnt give them a single job.
> Bring factories back,
Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wouldnt bring back even a single factory,
essentially because the factorys in china and india pay VASTLY less than
the american minimum wage, in spades than say auto 'workers' get paid.
> and there's people that will get some ladders and hand tools
> and plumb and wire it up faster than you can say Jack Robinson.
They already do with the current tax system when there isnt
a gross overhang of defaulted mortgages overhang the market.
> Just don't expect 'em to "retrain" to do prostate specific
> antigen tests in a laboratory, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.
Dont need to. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x% with an
immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns
completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
> That's just not who they are.
Plenty of other work they can do.
And your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax will completely cripple
sales of cars and houses and massive numbers that will
work in those areas will be out of a job ANYWAY.
> If we don't get back jobs where people can work with their
> hands, instead of having to have this elite workforce that
> can do calculus and program computers and such, we're
> going to have a permanent underclass in this country.
That is always the case in every first and second world country.
Primarily those who choose not to work and who bludge on welfare.
And there must have been vast numbers of individuals that do stuff
thats a hell of a lot easier than calculus and program computers
and such to see the unemployment rate bottom at 4.x% with an
immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns
completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
> That's bad for them 'cuz poverty sucks
Yes, but plenty volunteer for welfare anyway and your stupid
Grossly Unfair Tax will produce a hell of a lot more of them
because it will completely cripple the sales of cars and houses etc.
It wont have any real effect that matters on the price of the lowest price
consumer goods from china, essentially because those are so cheap.
> and it's bad for us because we end up supporting them to at least a certain extent.
You correctly point out that your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax
'supports' them even more than the current system does,
essentially because there is a massive handout to those tho
currently pay very little income tax because their income is low.
> It drags the whole country down.
And your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax will completely fuck the
economy and see a hell of a lot more in genteel 'poverty'
working from home flogging stuff on the net etc, essentially
because those would then be paying no federal income tax at all.
A hell of a lot more of them would grow their own food, because
your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax would not tax that food at all.
>>> - the prosperity that the income tax has been choking
>>> out of the country for the last 50 years or so.
>> Mindlessly silly. Prosperity hasnt been anything even remotely resembling choked off.
> Not by a long shot. Prosperity is flagging and getting worse.
Pig ignorant lie. The unemployment rate bottom at 4.x% with an
immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns
completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN,
and thats the main determinant of prosperity, having a job.
And the houses and cars people were buying just before
the clowns completely imploded the entire world financial
system, AGAIN, proves in spades that real prosperity was
nothing even remotely like flagging and getting worse.
> The last big thing that allowed Americans to earn a big income was
> the software development that went overseas about 10 years ago.
Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. Huge numbers of professionals
have very high incomes, most obviously with doctors, lawyers,
bankers etc etc etc and fuck all of that ever left the country.
> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books.
> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software
and real programmers dont need books from Borders
Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
> There AREN'T any big-paying jobs even for the
> intellectually elite, unles they've got a masters or better.
Another bare faced pig ignorant lie, most obviously with doctors,
lawyers, bankers, CEOs, the best salesmen, etc etc etc.
> Back in the 60's, a man could be prosperous all by himself while working
> a factory job, supporting his family while his wife stayed home.
Still can with non factory jobs that pay the same amount.
> Now it takes both husband and wife working,
Pig ignorant lie.
> and sometimes one or more working two jobs, to be able to live that way.
Pig ignorant lie. Thats actually paying for much bigger
houses and many more cars than those in the 60s had.
> And that isn't even comparable, since the family in the 60's had more
> leisure time. Hard to take a family vacation from 2 or 3 jobs at once.
Completely trivial even with both working.
Rally2xs
> Rally2xs wrote
> What is driving SOME jobs overseas is the fact that americans
> are paid a hell of a lot more than what is paid to the lowest paid
> workers in places like china and no change to the US tax system
> will ever do a damned thing about that massive difference.
It takes 30 - 33 hours of labor to construct 1 automobile. If the
workers are getting $100 an hour, that's still only $3,000 - $3,300 of
the price of the car. For a $25,000 Jeep Liberty, built in Toledo,
Ohio, removing the corporate income tax embedded in its price would
make the price of that Jeep to be $19,500. That's because there's 22%
of the price that just goes for paying the income tax on the Jeep
manufacturer and its suppliers and the share of the employees' social
security and medicare taxes. IOW, you could pay Jeep's employees $0
an hour, and still not lower the price of the Jeep as much as getting
rid of the corporate income tax would.
> > That is, unless you want to use the tax system to really stick it to the rich.
>
> That doesnt work either, they just move their money out of the
> country and that fucks employment very comprehensively indeed.
Congratulations. You finally got something right. It's why there's
$10 - $15 trillion that is currently hidden overseas, and would come
rushing back into the country if the income tax went away.
> Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wont get manufacturing jobs back from china,
> essentially because the chinese are paid vastly less than the US minimum wage.
Labor is no longer a big enough component of the price of things to
control where they're manufactured. Its the taxes that are doing that
now, specifically our income taxes, that drive corporations'
manufacturing operations overseas.
> > so a family of 4 making $52,000 only pays
> > 1/2 thefair taxrate, effectively, as a maximum.
>
> Which is a hell of a lot more than those on that income currently pay in income tax.
Untrue.
Under the fair tax, prices for items built, grown, or mined in the USA
would rise only by about 1 percent. If the family of 4 makes $52,000
and spends every penny of it on new merchandise, that's only $520. By
contrast, the income tax, in the form of the social security tax and
the medicare tax, is a combined 7.65%, or $3,978. But getting back to
the $520 that the family of 4 pays in additional expenses over today's
prices, they're still getting the prebate of $5,980 / year, so yeah,
they're waaaaay ahead of the income tax.
> > Just don't expect 'em to "retrain" to do prostate specific
> > antigen tests in a laboratory, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.
>
> Dont need to. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x% with an
> immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns
> completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
The unemployment rate doesn't tell the story. Some guy working for
$7 / hr for some plumbing business in Podunk, Anystate is "employed"
but he sure as hell isn't prosperous. He's just employed. Doesn't
compare even a little bit with a guy making $30 an hour building cars.
> > That's just not who they are.
>
> Plenty of other work they can do.
And it all pays crap wages.
> A hell of a lot more of them would grow their own food, because
> your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax would not tax that food at all.
Not anyone in NYC that only has asphalt and concrete for "soil."
There's LOTS of city dwellers now, compared to the 30's during the
depression, when the economy had a large agrarian component.
> Pig ignorant lie. The unemployment rate bottom at 4.x% with an
> immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns
> completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN,
> and thats the main determinant of prosperity, having a job.
There you go with the unemployment rate again. Just because someone
is employed doesn't mean they're prosperous. The really good jobs are
mostly only things that you have to go to college for. Lotsa people
can't get much benefit from going to college. They therefore are not
prosperous, most of 'em. We need to change that. The Fair Tax would
change that.
> > The last big thing that allowed Americans to earn a big income was
> > the software development that went overseas about 10 years ago.
>
> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. Huge numbers of professionals
> have very high incomes, most obviously with doctors, lawyers,
> bankers etc etc etc and fuck all of that ever left the country.
Yep, they can't be outsourced. They just have H1b visa holders come
into this country and take their jobs. Why? Because H1b visa holders
aren't required to pay the 7.65%, highly regressive social security
and medicare taxes. IOW, it pays for employers here to hire
foreigners rather than American citizens because of the income tax
break.
> > Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books.
> > Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
>
> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software
> and real programmers dont need books from Borders
> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books,
if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them,
'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an
American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with
has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of
the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap
wages.
> > There AREN'T any big-paying jobs even for the
> > intellectually elite, unles they've got a masters or better.
>
> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie, most obviously with doctors,
> lawyers, bankers, CEOs, the best salesmen, etc etc etc.
Most of those have a Masters degree, or better.
> > Back in the 60's, a man could be prosperous all by himself while working
> > a factory job, supporting his family while his wife stayed home.
>
> Still can with non factory jobs that pay the same amount.
Those jobs are largely vaporware.
Rod Speed
>> What is driving SOME jobs overseas is the fact that americans
>> are paid a hell of a lot more than what is paid to the lowest paid
>> workers in places like china and no change to the US tax system
>> will ever do a damned thing about that massive difference.
> It takes 30 - 33 hours of labor to construct 1 automobile.
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
Makes a massive difference how automated the car plant is.
> If the workers are getting $100 an hour,
The total cost of US labor is a hell of a lot more than that.
> that's still only $3,000 - $3,300 of the price of the car.
Thats still a massive difference in the price of particularly the cheapest cars.
> For a $25,000 Jeep Liberty, built in Toledo, Ohio,
> removing the corporate income tax embedded in its
> price would make the price of that Jeep to be $19,500.
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
When so many auto manufactureres arent even making a profit, there
wont be any drop whatever with the elimination of corporate income tax.
> That's because there's 22% of the price that just goes for paying
> the income tax on the Jeep manufacturer and its suppliers
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
> and the share of the employees' social security and medicare taxes.
You cant count those. Your Grossly Unfair Tax is JUST
eliminating income tax not those other taxes as well.
> IOW, you could pay Jeep's employees $0 an hour,
> and still not lower the price of the Jeep as much
> as getting rid of the corporate income tax would.
Another lie.
And it still wouldnt get jobs back from Japan anyway, because they
produce a hell of a lot better cars than US manufacturers do anyway.
>>> That is, unless you want to use the tax system to really stick it to the rich.
>> That doesnt work either, they just move their money out of the
>> country and that fucks employment very comprehensively indeed.
> Congratulations. You finally got something right.
You've never ever managed anything like that. You cant even get the name of your tax right.
> It's why there's $10 - $15 trillion that is currently hidden overseas, and
> would come rushing back into the country if the income tax went away.
Pigs arse it would. It would stay where it is because the US economy
would be completely fucked by your Grossly Unfair Tax, because of the
massive effect it would have on the sales of cars and houses etc etc etc,
areas where there is already a massive problem economically.
>> Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wont get manufacturing
>> jobs back from china, essentially because the chinese
>> are paid vastly less than the US minimum wage.
> Labor is no longer a big enough component of the
> price of things to control where they're manufactured.
Is that right ? So the manufacturing of low cost consumer goods
moved to China just so we could end up dead from the lack of
quality control and fraud involved in the manufacturing there eh ?
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
> Its the taxes that are doing that now, specifically our income
> taxes, that drive corporations' manufacturing operations overseas.
That cant be the problem with the auto industry, fool.
They aint paying any income tax, because they aint makin a profit, fool.
>>> so a family of 4 making $52,000 only pays
>>> 1/2 thefair taxrate, effectively, as a maximum.
>> Which is a hell of a lot more than those on that income currently pay in income tax.
> Untrue.
True.
> Under the fair tax, prices for items built, grown, or
> mined in the USA would rise only by about 1 percent.
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
That cant happen with a your Grossly Unfair Tax which would need
to be at atleast 50% to be revenue neutral given the massive
damage it would do to the sales of cars and houses etc etc etc.
> If the family of 4 makes $52,000 and spends every
> penny of it on new merchandise, that's only $520.
It would actually be $26K+, fool.
> By contrast, the income tax, in the form of
> the social security tax and the medicare tax,
You cant count those, they aint replaced by your Grossly Unfair Tax.
> is a combined 7.65%, or $3,978.
Pity about the $26K+ which is the real figure.
> But getting back to the $520 that the family of 4
> pays in additional expenses over today's prices,
Pity its actually $26K+
> they're still getting the prebate of $5,980 / year,
> so yeah, they're waaaaay ahead of the income tax.
Like hell they are when the real number is $26K+
>>> Just don't expect 'em to "retrain" to do prostate specific
>>> antigen tests in a laboratory, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.
>> Dont need to. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x% with an
>> immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns
>> completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
> The unemployment rate doesn't tell the story.
Corse it does on that retraining question.
> Some guy working for $7 / hr for some plumbing business in Podunk,
> Anystate is "employed" but he sure as hell isn't prosperous.
Thats another pig ignorant lie.
> He's just employed. Doesn't compare even a little
> bit with a guy making $30 an hour building cars.
Fuck all of the workforce ever builds cars, fool.
Fuck all ever did even before Japan got involved.
>>> That's just not who they are.
>> Plenty of other work they can do.
> And it all pays crap wages.
Another bare faced lie.
>> A hell of a lot more of them would grow their own food, because
>> your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax would not tax that food at all.
> Not anyone in NYC that only has asphalt and concrete for "soil."
Wrong, as always. Its completely trivial to grow food in pots, fool.
> There's LOTS of city dwellers now, compared to the 30's during
> the depression, when the economy had a large agrarian component.
There's still plenty that can grow their own food if they want to.
>> Pig ignorant lie. The unemployment rate bottom at 4.x% with an
>> immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns
>> completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN,
>> and thats the main determinant of prosperity, having a job.
> There you go with the unemployment rate again. Just because
> someone is employed doesn't mean they're prosperous.
They sure aint in poverty, fool.
> The really good jobs are mostly only things that you have to go to college for.
Another pig ignorant lie.
> Lotsa people can't get much benefit from going to college.
> They therefore are not prosperous, most of 'em.
Another pig ignorant lie. Hordes who ever went anywhere near college are prosperous, fool.
> We need to change that.
Nope,
> The Fair Tax would change that.
Yes, your Grossly Unfair Tax would completely fuck the economy.
In spades with the car and housing industrys. Two areas
where those who have never ever been anywhere near
college can currently be quite prosperous until fools like you
completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
>>> The last big thing that allowed Americans to earn a big income was
>>> the software development that went overseas about 10 years ago.
>> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. Huge numbers of professionals
>> have very high incomes, most obviously with doctors, lawyers,
>> bankers etc etc etc and fuck all of that ever left the country.
> Yep, they can't be outsourced. They just have H1b
> visa holders come into this country and take their jobs.
Easily stopped without fucking the tax system, fool.
> Why? Because H1b visa holders aren't required to pay the
> 7.65%, highly regressive social security and medicare taxes.
Fuck all doctors, lawyers, bankers are H1Bs, fool.
> IOW, it pays for employers here to hire foreigners rather
> than American citizens because of the income tax break.
Fuck all doctors, lawyers, bankers are H1Bs, fool.
>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble
>>> books. Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software
>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders
>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
> Wrong.
Right.
> I am a programmer,
So am I.
> and that is exactly where I buy my books, if they have them.
You're a complete dud that needs those books ? No problem, we'll
flush you where you belong and get an H1B that doesnt need them.
THATS why those operations dont have those books
anymore, because NO ONE WAS BUYING THEM, fool.
> I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them,
> 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after.
Hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.
> Only reason I'm an American citizen who is a programmer
> is because the stuff I work with has "Secret" stamped all
> over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
Then they get to wear fools like you that need those books.
> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of the
> rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap wages.
And your Grossly Unfair Tax wont raise enough in federal taxes to pay you anymore,
so you will be out on your lard arse and even Walmart wont employ you because
sales of consumer goods will be completely fucked by your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax.
>>> There AREN'T any big-paying jobs even for the
>>> intellectually elite, unles they've got a masters or better.
>> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie, most obviously with doctors,
>> lawyers, bankers, CEOs, the best salesmen, etc etc etc.
> Most of those have a Masters degree, or better.
Pig ignorant lie.
>>> Back in the 60's, a man could be prosperous all by himself while
>>> working a factory job, supporting his family while his wife stayed home.
>> Still can with non factory jobs that pay the same amount.
> Those jobs are largely vaporware.
Pig ignorant lie.
Les Cargill
>
>
>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books.
>>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software
>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders
>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
>
> Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books,
> if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them,
> 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an
> American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with
> has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game
is not sustainable.
And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a
security clearance :)
> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of
> the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap
> wages.
>
No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries
with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last
much longer, though....
--
Les Cargill
Rally2xs
> Rally2xs wrote:
> > On Oct 31, 10:47 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Rally2xs wrote
> <snip>
>
> >>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books.
> >>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
> >> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software
> >> and real programmers dont need books from Borders
> >> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
>
> > Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books,
> > if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them,
> > 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an
> > American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with
> > has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
>
> India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game
> is not sustainable.
Nevertheless, programming in the USA is doing very poorly. Have to
watched the CNN Money website that lists the "best jobs"? In years
past, "programmer" would be right up near the top. Now it doesn't
even appear. When I got here (DC area) 13 years ago, the Washington
Post had a whole section of job ads that was about 10 pages thick, and
was all tech jobs. Now there is no such section. The programming
jobs may or may not be in Bangalore, but the significant diference is
that they are not _here._
> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a
> security clearance :)
I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming was all done
someplace else, we'd still have to test it. I can do that too... Not
nearly as satisfying, tho.
> > Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of
> > the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap
> > wages.
>
> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries
> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last
> much longer, though....
It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the
cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no
recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry.
Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing
can deliver, there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to
run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until
the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see what a
monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money. Then they will of
course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon. The USA
will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy. At that
time, I expect the fair tax will be passed, and maybe it won't be too
late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a monumental
debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass the Fair Tax
now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
Dave Head
> --
> Les Cargill
Rod Speed
>>>> Rally2xs wrote
>>>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books.
>>>>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
>>>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software
>>>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders
>>>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
>>> Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books,
>>> if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them,
>>> 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an
>>> American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work
>>> with has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
>> India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game is not sustainable.
> Nevertheless, programming in the USA is doing very poorly.
Yes, it got grossly oversupplied and then comprehensively shafted by India.
> Have to watched the CNN Money website that lists the "best jobs"?
> In years past, "programmer" would be right up near the top. Now it
> doesn't even appear. When I got here (DC area) 13 years ago, the
> Washington Post had a whole section of job ads that was about 10
> pages thick, and was all tech jobs. Now there is no such section.
> The programming jobs may or may not be in Bangalore, but the
> significant diference is that they are not _here._
Yes, you chose the wrong field. That isnt true of the medical services industry.
And the bulk of that cant be offshored either.
>> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a security clearance :)
> I work directly for the US Navy.
And it remains to be seen how long Congress will keep funding that.
You may well have fucked up very comprehensively there too.
> Even if the programming was all done someplace else,
Unlikely they'll ever be THAT stupid. They may well stop doing much more of it tho.
> we'd still have to test it.
Not if they stop paying for that to be developed.
> I can do that too... Not nearly as satisfying, tho.
>>> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of the
>>> rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap wages.
>> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries
>> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my
>> not last much longer, though....
> It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the
> cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no
> recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry.
Mindlessly silly. We saw the longest economic boom in
the entire recorded history with that income tax universal.
> Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing can deliver,
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
Its a small part of any modern first world economy now.
> there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to run the gov't.
Even sillier. Those who dont work in manufacturing get paid a hell of a lot better
than most of those who do still work in manufacturing and so pay taxes fine.
> Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until the
> Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see
> what a monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money.
They actually have enough of a clue to have worked out that if the
US economy fails, the rest of them will be in very deep shit indeed.
> Then they will of course stop.
They wont be that stupid, you watch.
> That will be the day of economic armageddon.
Have fun listing even a single example of that ever happening in the last thousand years.
Didnt even happen with Britain when it completely fucked up the return to the gold
standard and that crippled their manufacturing exports very dramatically indeed.
> The USA will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy.
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
> At that time, I expect the fair tax will be passed,
How odd that even Zimbabwe wasnt actually THAT stupid.
> and maybe it won't be too late. But there will be massive economic devastation
We didnt even see that during the great depression.
> and a monumental debt to deal with if it gets that far.
We had that during WW2 and it worked fine.
> Better to pass the Fair Tax now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
Thats never going to happen again, fool. The world's moved on forever
and what matters is the vastly lower labor costs in china now.
The US continues to be where much of the design work is done, particularly
with the more high tech stuff like cpus and hard drives and military hardware etc.
m...@privacy.net
>Yes, you chose the wrong field. That isnt true of the medical services industry.
So would you recommend a person to get into healthcare
now days Rod?
Bottom line...where ARE the jobs in the USA say in two
years? Healthcare, engineering, etc?
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Yes, you chose the wrong field. That
>> isnt true of the medical services industry.
> So would you recommend a person to get into healthcare now days Rod?
Yes, its one area where most of the work cant be readily exported
and the demand for those services will keep increasing.
> Bottom line...where ARE the jobs in the USA say in two years?
> Healthcare, engineering, etc?
One obvious area with engineering is the alternative
stuff with the US pouring quite a bit of money into that.
I think health care has much better prospects tho.
Les Cargill
I've been in programming for 24 years. The whole field got
oversold, about ... 13 or so years ago. But there's still
going to be demand for people. In addition to Bangalore
Bandits, other factors include increased webification,
a general sag in telecomms ( largely from rapacious abuse
by the investment community ) and free software.
Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more - they
are online. And increasingly, we're dependent on networking tools
and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters.
Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as
that whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private
sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much,
much dumber.
>> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a
>> security clearance :)
>
> I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming was all done
> someplace else, we'd still have to test it. I can do that too... Not
> nearly as satisfying, tho.
>
No, I understand. Programming is testing, ultimately.
>>> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of
>>> the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap
>>> wages.
>> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries
>> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last
>> much longer, though....
>
> It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the
> cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no
> recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry.
> Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing
> can deliver, there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to
> run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until
> the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see what a
> monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money.
Yes. Three things, though:
1) The dollar cannot be the benchmark currency forever. But we don't
have to outrun the bear, we just have to outrun Europe. And they're
in worse shape than we are, in every dimension except those
published by propaganda centers like the WHO.
2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class, and we'll be able
to trade, roughly, goods for goods. Right now is a solution to the
problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer
Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite
risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of life
during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the end, it's
not really the number that matters, it's what that number will buy, and
that is actually pretty good, once you get outside of housing. And
housing is very sharply correcting as we speak...
3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And the
problem is that "government load" in all directions is much lower here
than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan.
The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've
seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson has
discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online.
> Then they will of
> course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon.
Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
> The USA
> will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy.
Not likely. Zimbabwe has nothing anyone else wants. Of course it
*can* happen, but ... government debt is a funny thing.
> At that
> time, I expect the fair tax will be passed, and maybe it won't be too
> late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a monumental
> debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass the Fair Tax
> now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
>
But we don't *want* manufacturing jobs. Trust me on this; I've seen
it first hand. And I've posted "We Can't Make It Here Anymore" lyrics on
Usenet before...
> Dave Head
>
>
>
>> --
>> Les Cargill
--
Les Cargill
Rally2xs
Yeah, that free software thing is especially nuts. Work for free on
some piece of software? Er... why? Maybe it's just 'cuz I'm 62, but
that idea just doesn't seem to have any wings.
As a user, I _know_ I hate it - there's nobody to call up for tech
support most of the time, and the documentation so far on some of the
stuff I've _tried_ to use always sucks. There's a Unix-based UML
drawing program that supposedly creates diagrams from source code.
Not on my computer it doesn't. It crashes. Documentation? Some guy
wrote something about 4 revisions back, that doesn't reflect the state
of the thing now at all, but who ya' gonna complain to? There's no
one that's paid to give a d***, so that'd likely be futile anyway.
> Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more - they
> are online. And increasingly, we're dependent on networking tools
> and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters.
Everything's on Dice, eh?
> Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as
> that whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private
> sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much,
> much dumber.
I wouldn't bet on that. Soon's somebody starts getting complacent,
we'll get hit again, maybe lose more than 3,000 people to some WMD
thing like Anthrax, and then there'll be a new region of the world
that needs their a**'s kicked, and we'll be developing more Tomahawk
software to do new and wonderous things...
> >> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a
> >> security clearance :)
>
> > I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming was all done
> > someplace else, we'd still have to test it. I can do that too... Not
> > nearly as satisfying, tho.
>
> No, I understand. Programming is testing, ultimately.
Uh-huh...
> >>> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of
> >>> the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap
> >>> wages.
> >> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries
> >> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last
> >> much longer, though....
>
> > It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the
> > cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no
> > recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry.
> > Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing
> > can deliver, there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to
> > run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until
> > the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see what a
> > monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money.
>
> Yes. Three things, though:
> 1) The dollar cannot be the benchmark currency forever. But we don't
> have to outrun the bear, we just have to outrun Europe. And they're
> in worse shape than we are, in every dimension except those
> published by propaganda centers like the WHO.
Well, we could give it a try at being the benchmark currency forever.
No need to give it up willingly.
> 2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class, and we'll be able
> to trade, roughly, goods for goods.
Not if we're not producing anything.
> Right now is a solution to the
> problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer
> Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite
> risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of life
> during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the end, it's
> not really the number that matters, it's what that number will buy, and
> that is actually pretty good, once you get outside of housing. And
> housing is very sharply correcting as we speak...
>
> 3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And the
> problem is that "government load" in all directions is much lower here
> than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan.
Government load?
And the income tax is and has been a disaster for our economy. 2nd
worst idea this country has ever had, right behind slavery.
>
> The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've
> seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson has
> discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online.
We're not going to need the social insurance system if we can get
everyone a good job, and that doesn't mean $7 / hr at Wal Mart.
> > Then they will of
> > course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon.
>
> Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
Again, say what? That day will be instant balanced budget day.
Sounds like a bang to me.
> > The USA
> > will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy.
>
> Not likely. Zimbabwe has nothing anyone else wants. Of course it
> *can* happen, but ... government debt is a funny thing.
I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a
very, very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in
between.
> > At that
> > time, I expect thefair taxwill be passed, and maybe it won't be too
> > late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a monumental
> > debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass theFair Tax
> > now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
>
> But we don't *want* manufacturing jobs. Trust me on this; I've seen
> it first hand. And I've posted "We Can't Make It Here Anymore" lyrics on
> Usenet before...
Who doesn't want manufacturing? I sure as H want manufacturing. This
is the only way that we can give those people that work with their
hands something prosperous to do. Without manufacturing, those guys
that I said can wire and plumb a factory 'fore you can turn around
twice don't have anything significant to do, and end up at... Wal
Mart, stocking the shelves or something. Or, working for some "small
business" that consists of 10 people total, including the owner,
paying crap wages for people to go out and replace faucet washers.
I want all those guys employed like that, so they have money, a good
life, and most importantly can be taxed and don't need public
support. We need jobs that are doable by someone with an IQ of 80,
for whom college is a total waste of time, but can be seriously
productive in a manufacturing environment, and virtually nowhere else.
Dave Head
>
> > Dave Head
>
> >> --
> >> Les Cargill
>
> --
> Les Cargill- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Rod Speed
> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote
>> Rally2xs wrote
>>> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote
>>>> Rally2xs wrote
>>>>>> Rally2xs wrote
>>>>>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books.
For the same reason that some those to volunteer for unpaid work.
> Maybe it's just 'cuz I'm 62, but that idea just doesn't seem to have any wings.
Try telling that to those who use Linux. Dont be TOO surprised when they just laugh in your face.
> As a user, I _know_ I hate it
Your problem.
> - there's nobody to call up for tech support most of the time,
I've never been stupid enough to bother with any MS product.
> and the documentation so far on some of
> the stuff I've _tried_ to use always sucks.
Corse that never ever happens with stuff you pay for, eh ?
> There's a Unix-based UML drawing program that supposedly creates
> diagrams from source code. Not on my computer it doesn't. It crashes.
Corse that never ever happens with stuff you pay for, eh ?
> Documentation? Some guy wrote something about 4 revisions
> back, that doesn't reflect the state of the thing now at all,
Corse that never ever happens with stuff you pay for, eh ?
> but who ya' gonna complain to? There's no one that's
> paid to give a d***, so that'd likely be futile anyway.
Corse that never ever happens with stuff you pay for, eh ?
>> Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more - they are online.
And you didnt even notice. Just another dinosaur WAY past its useby date.
>> And increasingly, we're dependent on networking tools
>> and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters.
> Everything's on Dice, eh?
>> Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as that
>> whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private sector, there's
>> a different problem - employers getting much, much dumber.
> I wouldn't bet on that.
I would. The navy is just a tad useless in Afghanistan.
> Soon's somebody starts getting complacent, we'll get hit again,
> maybe lose more than 3,000 people to some WMD thing like
> Anthrax, and then there'll be a new region of the world that
> needs their a**'s kicked, and we'll be developing more
> Tomahawk software to do new and wonderous things...
Doesnt need to be delivered by the Navy.
> Uh-huh...
Nothing is forever, thats pissing into the wind, King Canute.
> No need to give it up willingly.
No one is giving up willingly.
>> 2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class,
>> and we'll be able to trade, roughly, goods for goods.
> Not if we're not producing anything.
That never happens. The US still produces pharmaceuticals,
aircraft, military harware, PC software, movies, TV series,
music, etc etc etc and is STILL where the absolute vast bulk
of technology is fully commercialised first, most recenty with
the PC, the net, DNA, ebay, paypal, Walmart, derivatisation,
securitization, CDSs etc etc etc.
Bet you aint bothered with much in the way of
chinese movies, TV series, music etc etc etc.
>> Right now is a solution to the
>> problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer
>> Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite
>> risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of
>> life during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the end,
>> it's not really the number that matters, it's what that number will
>> buy, and that is actually pretty good, once you get outside of
>> housing. And housing is very sharply correcting as we speak...
>> 3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And the
>> problem is that "government load" in all directions is much lower
>> here than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan.
> Government load?
What the govt does thats paid for by taxation.
> And the income tax is and has been a disaster for our economy.
> 2nd worst idea this country has ever had, right behind slavery.
Have fun listing even a single example of a modern
first world economy that works without it.
>> The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've
>> seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson
>> has discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online.
> We're not going to need the social insurance
> system if we can get everyone a good job,
Not even possible. In spades with the increasing automation
of so much of what happens in a modern first world economy.
> and that doesn't mean $7 / hr at Wal Mart.
If you dont like that sort of work, you're fucked. No one
has ever worked out how to only have jobs much better
than that and eliminating income tax certainly wont do that.
We havent worked out how to automate the cleaning of our
houses and streets, so someone has to do that sort of shit work.
>>> Then they will of course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon.
>> Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
> Again, say what? That day will be instant balanced budget day.
Just another of your silly little fantasys.
> Sounds like a bang to me.
Only because you are a rabid loon that doesnt have a clue about how
modern first world economys actually work, or anything else at all either.
>>> The USA will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy.
>> Not likely. Zimbabwe has nothing anyone else wants. Of course
>> it *can* happen, but ... government debt is a funny thing.
> I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a very,
> very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in between.
Thats nothing like Zimbabwe and wont happen with a single modern first world country anyway.
You dont even get that in places like Lichtenstein which have fuck all industry.
>>> At that time, I expect thefair taxwill be passed, and maybe it won't
>>> be too late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a
>>> monumental debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass the
>>> Fair Tax now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
>> But we don't *want* manufacturing jobs. Trust me on this; I've seen
>> it first hand. And I've posted "We Can't Make It Here Anymore"
>> lyrics on Usenet before...
> Who doesn't want manufacturing? I sure as H want manufacturing.
Because you are a dinosaur furiously 'living' in the past.
And you wont be struck down if you use the word hell.
> This is the only way that we can give those people that
> work with their hands something prosperous to do.
Wrong, as always. There's always building houses and roads and bridges
and buildings etc etc etc. None of that work is readily exportable either.
> Without manufacturing, those guys that I said can wire and plumb a
> factory 'fore you can turn around twice don't have anything significant
> to do, and end up at... Wal Mart, stocking the shelves or something.
Or they wire and plumb new Walmarts etc etc etc.
> Or, working for some "small business" that consists of 10 people total, including
> the owner, paying crap wages for people to go out and replace faucet washers.
And replace hot water services that die, pumps that fail, pipes that leak, etc etc etc.
> I want all those guys employed like that, so they have money, a good
> life, and most importantly can be taxed and don't need public support.
Thats much more true of small business than operations like GM.
> We need jobs that are doable by someone with an IQ of 80, for
> whom college is a total waste of time, but can be seriously productive
> in a manufacturing environment, and virtually nowhere else.
That last is a pig ignorant lie. They're fine doing the plumbing, house building, road
maintenance, bridge building, collecting the garbage, doing the recycling etc etc etc.
Les Cargill
But it's mostly won.
> As a user, I _know_ I hate it - there's nobody to call up for tech
> support most of the time, and the documentation so far on some of the
> stuff I've _tried_ to use always sucks.
I can't count the number of times I've called tech support on
one finger. If it don't work, over the side. Next.
> There's a Unix-based UML
> drawing program that supposedly creates diagrams from source code.
> Not on my computer it doesn't. It crashes. Documentation? Some guy
> wrote something about 4 revisions back, that doesn't reflect the state
> of the thing now at all, but who ya' gonna complain to? There's no
> one that's paid to give a d***, so that'd likely be futile anyway.
>
Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five years, but
I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't leave the toolchain
under you long enough for that to happen.
>> Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more - they
>> are online. And increasingly, we're dependent on networking tools
>> and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters.
>
> Everything's on Dice, eh?
>
Well.. used to be. Try Indeed now. It'll be different next week.
>> Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as
>> that whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private
>> sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much,
>> much dumber.
>
> I wouldn't bet on that. Soon's somebody starts getting complacent,
> we'll get hit again, maybe lose more than 3,000 people to some WMD
> thing like Anthrax, and then there'll be a new region of the world
> that needs their a**'s kicked, and we'll be developing more Tomahawk
> software to do new and wonderous things...
>
Okay then....
Look... all the Visa and Mastercharge the Mujahadeen used
to finance all that... expired.
Sorry.
>>>> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a
>>>> security clearance :)
>>> I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming was all done
>>> someplace else, we'd still have to test it. I can do that too... Not
>>> nearly as satisfying, tho.
>> No, I understand. Programming is testing, ultimately.
>
> Uh-huh...
>
Yep. Funny you should say that...
>>>>> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of
>>>>> the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap
>>>>> wages.
>>>> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries
>>>> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last
>>>> much longer, though....
>>> It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the
>>> cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no
>>> recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry.
>>> Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing
>>> can deliver, there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to
>>> run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until
>>> the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see what a
>>> monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money.
>> Yes. Three things, though:
>> 1) The dollar cannot be the benchmark currency forever. But we don't
>> have to outrun the bear, we just have to outrun Europe. And they're
>> in worse shape than we are, in every dimension except those
>> published by propaganda centers like the WHO.
>
> Well, we could give it a try at being the benchmark currency forever.
> No need to give it up willingly.
>
What is the point? Foam-finger "we're #1" rot? That gains us nothing.
>> 2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class, and we'll be able
>> to trade, roughly, goods for goods.
>
> Not if we're not producing anything.
>
Well, I'm trying. me and a half dozen other guys.
>> Right now is a solution to the
>> problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer
>> Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite
>> risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of life
>> during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the end, it's
>> not really the number that matters, it's what that number will buy, and
>> that is actually pretty good, once you get outside of housing. And
>> housing is very sharply correcting as we speak...
>>
>> 3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And the
>> problem is that "government load" in all directions is much lower here
>> than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan.
>
> Government load?
>
See also Kirchoff.
> And the income tax is and has been a disaster for our economy. 2nd
> worst idea this country has ever had, right behind slavery.
Yet it saw a spike in GDP pretty much unexplained in human history. In
real, inflation adjusted GDP.
>> The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've
>> seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson has
>> discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online.
>
> We're not going to need the social insurance system if we can get
> everyone a good job, and that doesn't mean $7 / hr at Wal Mart.
>
Don't bother them with details like that.
>>> Then they will of
>>> course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon.
>> Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
>
> Again, say what? That day will be instant balanced budget day.
> Sounds like a bang to me.
>
There will be no sharp edge. It will be a slow decay. "Not with a bang
but with a whimper..."
>>> The USA
>>> will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy.
>> Not likely. Zimbabwe has nothing anyone else wants. Of course it
>> *can* happen, but ... government debt is a funny thing.
>
> I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a
> very, very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in
> between.
>
That's a pretty poor analysis at best. Most people *are* in between,
and they'll be fine. I expect. If I'm wrong. it really
doesn't matter...
>>> At that
>>> time, I expect thefair taxwill be passed, and maybe it won't be too
>>> late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a monumental
>>> debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass theFair Tax
>>> now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
>> But we don't *want* manufacturing jobs. Trust me on this; I've seen
>> it first hand. And I've posted "We Can't Make It Here Anymore" lyrics on
>> Usenet before...
>
> Who doesn't want manufacturing? I sure as H want manufacturing.
Nobody wants it. I saw it firsthand. When people get to vote,
the factory goes. People build up resentment like scale in
a copper water pipe well grounded.
> This
> is the only way that we can give those people that work with their
> hands something prosperous to do. Without manufacturing, those guys
> that I said can wire and plumb a factory 'fore you can turn around
> twice don't have anything significant to do, and end up at... Wal
> Mart, stocking the shelves or something.
Yeah, but do you consciously buy from them? I try, but it's hopeless.
> Or, working for some "small
> business" that consists of 10 people total, including the owner,
> paying crap wages for people to go out and replace faucet washers.
>
> I want all those guys employed like that, so they have money, a good
> life, and most importantly can be taxed and don't need public
> support. We need jobs that are doable by someone with an IQ of 80,
> for whom college is a total waste of time, but can be seriously
> productive in a manufacturing environment, and virtually nowhere else.
>
> Dave Head
>
>>> Dave Head
>>>> --
>>>> Les Cargill
>> --
>> Les Cargill- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
--
Les Cargull
Rally2xs
I don't think so. There's still nothing like Photoshop. It's as good
as it is because people with PHD behind their names figure out new and
wonderous algorithms to manipulate graphical information with. Why?
'Cuz they get paid to. Not happenin' with "free" software. Any games
as good as the Quake and Doom and etc. series that are free? Don't
think so. And, I don't have to wonder whether a commercial piece of
software is any good if it's been around for any time at all. If it
has, its only because people have been buying it.
> > As a user, I _know_ I hate it - there's nobody to call up for tech
> > support most of the time, and the documentation so far on some of the
> > stuff I've _tried_ to use always sucks.
>
> I can't count the number of times I've called tech support on
> one finger. If it don't work, over the side. Next.
Can't necessarily deep-6 something that doesn't work, if it happens to
be the tool your organization is using to produce something. Get a
dud of an open source program, have a problem, and you're up the creek
unless someone there can fix it. Shouldn't have to divert valuable
production time to fix your tools, y'know?
> > There's a Unix-based UML
> > drawing program that supposedly creates diagrams from source code.
> > Not on my computer it doesn't. It crashes. Documentation? Some guy
> > wrote something about 4 revisions back, that doesn't reflect the state
> > of the thing now at all, but who ya' gonna complain to? There's no
> > one that's paid to give a d***, so that'd likely be futile anyway.
>
> Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five years, but
> I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't leave the toolchain
> under you long enough for that to happen.
Too bad its such fun, satisfying work, eh? Oh, well, only the Indians
and a few others can have that sort of fun any more.
>
> >> Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more - they
> >> are online. And increasingly, we're dependent on networking tools
> >> and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters.
>
> > Everything's on Dice, eh?
>
> Well.. used to be. Try Indeed now. It'll be different next week.
Ha, how 'bout that. Didn't know it was there. Still doesn't have any
SW Development jobs in Iraq or Afghanistan. Missed that one job a
couple years ago that was offered where I work. Make a pile of mony
in return for maybe getting shot at. Finally got a tech writing job
near Baghdad. Did get shot at. Did make a pile. Will retire earlier
than I could have otherwise... Maybe something I did will save a (US,
or even allied) soldier someday.... hoping...
> >> Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as
> >> that whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private
> >> sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much,
> >> much dumber.
>
> > I wouldn't bet on that. Soon's somebody starts getting complacent,
> > we'll get hit again, maybe lose more than 3,000 people to some WMD
> > thing like Anthrax, and then there'll be a new region of the world
> > that needs their a**'s kicked, and we'll be developing more Tomahawk
> > software to do new and wonderous things...
>
> Okay then....
> Look... all the Visa and Mastercharge the Mujahadeen used
> to finance all that... expired.
>
> Sorry.
Doesn't matter. They'll find a way, 1000's of Americans will die, our
side will say in unison, "Told ya' so", and then we'll be off with
another exeditionary force...
I'm not sure what it gains us, either, other than if it's referenced
to gold, I think that due to our dollar devaluation binge, oil will go
up faster in price. That would be a bad thing.
> >> 2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class, and we'll be able
> >> to trade, roughly, goods for goods.
>
> > Not if we're not producing anything.
>
> Well, I'm trying. me and a half dozen other guys.
We need to be producing something that is valuable andt that millions
of people want. Cars come to mind, but we have to do it profitably.
The Fair Tax would make that possible, but I don't know another way to
do it.
> >> Right now is a solution to the
> >> problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer
> >> Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite
> >> risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of life
> >> during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the end, it's
> >> not really the number that matters, it's what that number will buy, and
> >> that is actually pretty good, once you get outside of housing. And
> >> housing is very sharply correcting as we speak...
>
> >> 3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And the
> >> problem is that "government load" in all directions is much lower here
> >> than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan.
>
> > Government load?
>
> See also Kirchoff.
Kirchoff made a law of electricity that I dimly remember from early
training. Oh, I remember how the law works, I just don't remember
which law was invented by which guy... <G>
> > And the income tax is and has been a disaster for our economy. 2nd
> > worst idea this country has ever had, right behind slavery.
>
> Yet it saw a spike in GDP pretty much unexplained in human history. In
> real, inflation adjusted GDP.
You mean, the cash for clunkers spike? That one?
> >> The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've
> >> seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson has
> >> discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online.
>
> > We're not going to need the social insurance system if we can get
> > everyone a good job, and that doesn't mean $7 / hr at Wal Mart.
>
> Don't bother them with details like that.
I'll bother 'em.
> >>> Then they will of
> >>> course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon.
> >> Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
>
> > Again, say what? That day will be instant balanced budget day.
> > Sounds like a bang to me.
>
> There will be no sharp edge. It will be a slow decay. "Not with a bang
> but with a whimper..."
There will be an economic cataclysm on that day. Trust me.
>
> >>> The USA
> >>> will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy.
> >> Not likely. Zimbabwe has nothing anyone else wants. Of course it
> >> *can* happen, but ... government debt is a funny thing.
>
> > I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a
> > very, very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in
> > between.
>
> That's a pretty poor analysis at best. Most people *are* in between,
> and they'll be fine. I expect. If I'm wrong. it really
> doesn't matter...
They won't be fine, and they're not fine now. Everyone is making less
money than they should be making, courtesy of the predatory effects of
the income tax. That trend will continue. 'Fer instance, Capt.
Sully, the Miracle on the Hudson pilot, made $100K last year. All
that experience, all that capability, and the guy makes $100K, 'cuz
American airlines are in the toilet, perpetually, due to... at least
in part... the damned income tax making profitability next to
impossible in the USA. Hell, _I_ made $100K last year, courtesy of
just 1 month of the 3 of my Iraq tour. I wrote counter-IED
documents. Sully should be making $250K or so for what he does.
>
> >>> At that
> >>> time, I expect thefair taxwill be passed, and maybe it won't be too
> >>> late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a monumental
> >>> debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass theFair Tax
> >>> now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
> >> But we don't *want* manufacturing jobs. Trust me on this; I've seen
> >> it first hand. And I've posted "We Can't Make It Here Anymore" lyrics on
> >> Usenet before...
>
> > Who doesn't want manufacturing? I sure as H want manufacturing.
>
> Nobody wants it. I saw it firsthand. When people get to vote,
> the factory goes. People build up resentment like scale in
> a copper water pipe well grounded.
Where do you live? Probably not in the midwest. Tell people that
Ford, Chrysler, etc. is going to build a plant in my hometown, and all
the people there will be sending them Christmas candy. People there
know where their bread is buttered, not like the whiney bunch where I
live now, that dedicate their lives to keeping anyone from building
anything new. Even the Kalihari waterpark in Fredericksburg, Va. has
had a hard way to go to get built, and this is a tourist area, fer
cryin' out loud. No, there may not be many new auto plants in
Virginia, but stick it in Fostoria, Ohio and it will be welcomed with
open arms.
>
> > This
> > is the only way that we can give those people that work with their
> > hands something prosperous to do. Without manufacturing, those guys
> > that I said can wire and plumb a factory 'fore you can turn around
> > twice don't have anything significant to do, and end up at... Wal
> > Mart, stocking the shelves or something.
>
> Yeah, but do you consciously buy from them? I try, but it's hopeless.
I buy in Wal Mart - what's so hard about that? But we need to get
people that can work with their hands into jobs that pay $30 / hr, not
7. That way, we can tax 'em, and they can have good lives. The Fair
Tax can do that. I don't know any other way.
Dave Head
> > Dave Head
>
> >>> Dave Head
> >>>> --
> >>>> Les Cargill
> >> --
> >> Les Cargill
>
> --
> Les Cargull
jeff
> Food and wine. That's what saving all the money on everything else is
> for!
I'm inclined to agree.
About twice a week out to a restaurant and a day trip over the
weekend. But then I live in a city with lots of restaurant and
entertainment choices. Everything else is dead frugal.
If you are not living it up a bit, what's the point.
Jeff
>
> Shaun Eli
> www.BrainChampagne.com
m...@privacy.net
>Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five years, but
>I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't leave the toolchain
>under you long enough for that to happen.
please explain ok
Rod Speed
> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote
>> Rally2xs wrote
>>> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote
>>>> Rally2xs wrote
>>>>> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>> Rally2xs wrote
>>>>>>>> Rally2xs wrote
>>>>>>>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books.
There are however free OSs which are just as good as the commercial ones.
> And, I don't have to wonder whether a commercial piece of
> software is any good if it's been around for any time at all.
> If it has, its only because people have been buying it.
Doesnt mean its any good tho.
>>> As a user, I _know_ I hate it - there's nobody to call up for
>>> tech support most of the time, and the documentation so
>>> far on some of the stuff I've _tried_ to use always sucks.
>> I can't count the number of times I've called tech support on
>> one finger. If it don't work, over the side. Next.
> Can't necessarily deep-6 something that doesn't work, if it happens
> to be the tool your organization is using to produce something.
Your problem. You could get real radical and work for an organisation wth a clue.
> Get a dud of an open source program, have a problem,
> and you're up the creek unless someone there can fix it.
> Shouldn't have to divert valuable production time to fix your tools, y'know?
Get the same problem with commercial stuff.
>>> There's a Unix-based UML drawing program that supposedly
>>> creates diagrams from source code. Not on my computer it
>>> doesn't. It crashes. Documentation? Some guy wrote something
>>> about 4 revisions back, that doesn't reflect the state of the thing
>>> now at all, but who ya' gonna complain to? There's no one that's
>>> paid to give a d***, so that'd likely be futile anyway.
>> Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five
>> years, but I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't
>> leave the toolchain under you long enough for that to happen.
> Too bad its such fun, satisfying work, eh?
You can say the same thing about all sorts of work.
> Oh, well, only the Indians and a few others can have that sort of fun any more.
Mindlessly silly. Plenty of non Indians still do it.
>>>> Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more
>>>> - they are online. And increasingly, we're dependent on networking
>>>> tools and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters.
>>> Everything's on Dice, eh?
>> Well.. used to be. Try Indeed now. It'll be different next week.
> Ha, how 'bout that. Didn't know it was there. Still doesn't have any
> SW Development jobs in Iraq or Afghanistan. Missed that one job
> a couple years ago that was offered where I work. Make a pile of
> mony in return for maybe getting shot at. Finally got a tech writing
> job near Baghdad. Did get shot at. Did make a pile. Will retire
> earlier than I could have otherwise... Maybe something I did
> will save a (US, or even allied) soldier someday.... hoping...
>>>> Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as
>>>> that whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private sector,
>>>> there's a different problem - employers getting much, much dumber.
>>> I wouldn't bet on that. Soon's somebody starts getting complacent,
>>> we'll get hit again, maybe lose more than 3,000 people to some WMD
>>> thing like Anthrax, and then there'll be a new region of the world
>>> that needs their a**'s kicked, and we'll be developing more
>>> Tomahawk software to do new and wonderous things...
>> Okay then....
>> Look... all the Visa and Mastercharge the Mujahadeen used to finance all that... expired.
>> Sorry.
> Doesn't matter. They'll find a way, 1000's of Americans will die,
Nope, you watch.
> our side will say in unison, "Told ya' so", and
> then we'll be off with another exeditionary force...
Not a chance. There hasnt been anything like 9/11 since, and there wont be either, you watch.
Those clowns are concentrating on blowing each other up now.
Just like they did when they finally got the russians to go home.
>>> Uh-huh...
Nope, if it goes up enough, it makes the alternatives more viable.
>>>> 2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class,
>>>> and we'll be able to trade, roughly, goods for goods.
>>> Not if we're not producing anything.
>> Well, I'm trying. me and a half dozen other guys.
> We need to be producing something that is valuable andt that millions of people want.
Still doing that.
> Cars come to mind,
So do pharmaceuticals, houses, aircraft, movies, TV series, music, PC software, ebay, paypal etc etc etc.
> but we have to do it profitably.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist fellas ?
> The Fair Tax would make that possible,
Nope, it would completely cripple the sales of new cars and houses.
> but I don't know another way to do it.
Doesnt matter what you know, it happens anyway.
>>>> Right now is a solution to the
>>>> problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer
>>>> Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite
>>>> risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of
>>>> life during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the
>>>> end, it's not really the number that matters, it's what that
>>>> number will buy, and that is actually pretty good, once you get
>>>> outside of housing. And housing is very sharply correcting as we
>>>> speak...
>>>> 3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And
>>>> the problem is that "government load" in all directions is much
>>>> lower here than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan.
>>> Government load?
>> See also Kirchoff.
> Kirchoff made a law of electricity that I dimly remember from early
> training. Oh, I remember how the law works, I just don't remember
> which law was invented by which guy... <G>
>>> And the income tax is and has been a disaster for our economy.
>>> 2nd worst idea this country has ever had, right behind slavery.
>> Yet it saw a spike in GDP pretty much unexplained in human history.
>> In real, inflation adjusted GDP.
> You mean, the cash for clunkers spike? That one?
There was a hell of a lot more than just cash for clunkers involved.
>>>> The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've
>>>> seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson
>>>> has discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online.
>>> We're not going to need the social insurance system if we can get
>>> everyone a good job, and that doesn't mean $7 / hr at Wal Mart.
>> Don't bother them with details like that.
> I'll bother 'em.
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
You're just some bum that cant even work out what modern first world economys are about.
>>>>> Then they will of course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon.
>>>> Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
>>> Again, say what? That day will be instant balanced budget day.
>>> Sounds like a bang to me.
>> There will be no sharp edge. It will be a slow decay. "Not with a bang but with a whimper..."
> There will be an economic cataclysm on that day.
How odd that we have never ever seen one of those.
> Trust me.
I never trust fools that run that line.
>>>>> The USA will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy.
>>>> Not likely. Zimbabwe has nothing anyone else wants. Of course
>>>> it *can* happen, but ... government debt is a funny thing.
>>> I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy
>>> - no industry, a very, very wealthy class, and a very,
>>> very poor class, and nobody in between.
>> That's a pretty poor analysis at best. Most people *are* in between,
>> and they'll be fine. I expect. If I'm wrong. it really doesn't matter...
> They won't be fine, and they're not fine now. Everyone
> is making less money than they should be making,
> courtesy of the predatory effects of the income tax.
Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax would make that MUCH
worse when it completely kills sales of new cars and
houses and completely destroys the entire economy.
> That trend will continue. 'Fer instance, Capt. Sully, the Miracle
> on the Hudson pilot, made $100K last year. All that experience,
> all that capability, and the guy makes $100K, 'cuz American
> airlines are in the toilet, perpetually, due to... at least in part...
> the damned income tax making profitability next to
> impossible in the USA.
MIndlessly silly. Thats the result of the GFC, not income tax, fool.
> Hell, _I_ made $100K last year, courtesy of just 1 month
> of the 3 of my Iraq tour. I wrote counter-IED documents.
> Sully should be making $250K or so for what he does.
Tell that to the fools that produced the GFC.
>>>>> At that time, I expect thefair taxwill be passed, and maybe it won't
>>>>> be too late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a
>>>>> monumental debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass the
>>>>> Fair Tax now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
>>>> But we don't *want* manufacturing jobs. Trust me on this; I've seen
>>>> it first hand. And I've posted "We Can't Make It Here Anymore"
>>>> lyrics on Usenet before...
>>> Who doesn't want manufacturing? I sure as H want manufacturing.
>> Nobody wants it. I saw it firsthand. When people get to vote,
>> the factory goes. People build up resentment like scale in
>> a copper water pipe well grounded.
> Where do you live? Probably not in the midwest. Tell people
> that Ford, Chrysler, etc. is going to build a plant in my hometown,
> and all the people there will be sending them Christmas candy.
And they wont when your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax fucks their market completely.
> People there know where their bread is buttered, not like
> the whiney bunch where I live now, that dedicate their lives
> to keeping anyone from building anything new. Even the
> Kalihari waterpark in Fredericksburg, Va. has had a hard way
> to go to get built, and this is a tourist area, fer cryin' out loud.
Thats the GFC, stupid.
> No, there may not be many new auto plants in Virginia, but stick
> it in Fostoria, Ohio and it will be welcomed with open arms.
Taint gunna happen with your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax.
>>> This is the only way that we can give those people that work with their
>>> hands something prosperous to do. Without manufacturing, those guys
>>> that I said can wire and plumb a factory 'fore you can turn around
>>> twice don't have anything significant to do, and end up at... Wal
>>> Mart, stocking the shelves or something.
>> Yeah, but do you consciously buy from them? I try, but it's hopeless.
> I buy in Wal Mart - what's so hard about that? But we need to get
> people that can work with their hands into jobs that pay $30 / hr, not 7.
And your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax will decimate that sort of work in housing construction.
> That way, we can tax 'em, and they can have good lives.
Not when your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax decimates that sort of work in housing construction.
> The Fair Tax can do that.
Nope, it would kill the economy stone dead.
> I don't know any other way.
Your problem.
Rally2xs
retail prices will fall when expense of the income tax is removed from
American business. It is a law of business that competition sets the
price - you may want to keep the old price and pocket that 22%, but
you'll have a competitor that will pass along the savings, so you'll
either have to lower your price in order to sell your widget, or
you'll go out of business. That's just the way it works. If you keep
clinging to your view, then we have nothing to talk about. You're
just wrong on this one.
sf
wrote:
>I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a
>very, very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in
>between.
Yep, there's a chasm that's only getting wider. We cut our throats
when we off shored most of our manufacturing.
--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.
sf
<lcarg...@comcast.net> wrote:
>In the private sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much,
>much dumber.
Getting dumber? Please expand on that idea.
Rod Speed
> The problem with this whole exchange is your denying
> the obvious, that retail prices will fall when expense of
> the income tax is removed from American business.
And you are denying the even more obvious, that sales
of new cars and houses would be very fundamentally
crippled by your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax of 50%,
and even the 25% lie that wouldnt be revenue neutral.
When those sales are ALREADY crippled by the GFC
that would very comprehensively fuck the economy.
> It is a law of business that competition sets the price
It is in fact MUCH more complicated than mindlessly superficial claim.
Try telling that to Microsoft whose main competitor hands out their
main competitive product quite literally for FREE. Dont be TOO
surprised when Gates just laughs in your stupid pig ignorant face.
> - you may want to keep the old price and pocket that 22%,
> but you'll have a competitor that will pass along the savings,
> so you'll either have to lower your price in order to sell your
> widget, or you'll go out of business.
Even someone as stupid as you should have noticed that the
american car manufacturers are ALREADY going out of business
WITHOUT your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax slug of 22% and would
do that in spaded if the US was actually stupid enough to go for
your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax, so not only wouldnt manufacturing
return to the US, it would see a complete decimation of the car
manufacturing industry.
House building in spades, and that is one area where there
is still a hell of a lot of work in the US, essentially because
its not that practical to move finished houses and bridges
and roads etc etc etc from china currently.
> That's just the way it works.
Only in your pathetic little pig ignorant fantasyland.
> If you keep clinging to your view, then we have nothing to talk about.
We can keep rubbing your stupid pig ignorant nose in the fact
that your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax cant work and why no modern
country in the entire world has actually been stupid enough to try it.
> You're just wrong on this one.
Nope, you fools are.
Fortunately there will never be enough of you fools to matter, so it wont ever happen.
Rod Speed
> Rally2xs <rall...@att.net> wrote
>> I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a very,
>> very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in between.
> Yep, there's a chasm that's only getting wider.
It isnt actually. The only real 'poor' anymore are the
'homeless' and most of them are quite literally insane,
just not in the locked wards we used in the past.
> We cut our throats when we off shored most of our manufacturing.
That was inevitable once china decided that communism wasnt going to fly.
Nothing anyone can do about the massive difference in labor costs.
And the real poor benefit from that very dramatically with the price
of low cost consumer goods being MUCH cheaper as a result too.
There will always be a massive middle class in every modern first and second world country.
Manufacturing is only a very minor employer in any modern first world country, even one like Japan.
We saw the same thing with agriculture before that with previously something like 90%
employed in agriculture in some way, now down to less than 5% and we handled that fine.
Rod Speed
> Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.net> wrote
>> In the private sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much, much dumber.
> Getting dumber? Please expand on that idea.
He means doing stupid stuff like shaking the shit out of their
operation for the sake of change and the latest management fad.
That has one hell of an effect on some work, particularly programming etc.
Les Cargill
Honestly? Filters used to be easier to find, but they're all over
the Web in source-code form. PS just has a serious head of steam
in the marketplace, and for good reason. My PS intensive eldest
evaluated The Gimp and found it wanting. But she said she
could make it work.
> Not happenin' with "free" software. Any games
> as good as the Quake and Doom and etc. series that are free?
I don't know much about games. For all I know, the games I
liked best were for DOS, and free software people put
together DOSBOX, and I can play Descent again.
But open source doesn't always mean purely free. It is a
mix. I know this much - for realtime embedded stuff, Linux
has won. vxWorks has rolled off dramatically.
> Don't
> think so. And, I don't have to wonder whether a commercial piece of
> software is any good if it's been around for any time at all. If it
> has, its only because people have been buying it.
>
People often also stick with what they know. For me, the value-added
of Windows, hands down, is the Multimedia Extensions, which enable me
to use a computer for pretty serious recording applications.
>>> As a user, I _know_ I hate it - there's nobody to call up for tech
>>> support most of the time, and the documentation so far on some of the
>>> stuff I've _tried_ to use always sucks.
>> I can't count the number of times I've called tech support on
>> one finger. If it don't work, over the side. Next.
>
> Can't necessarily deep-6 something that doesn't work, if it happens to
> be the tool your organization is using to produce something.
But since you're effectively working by the hour... yes, I
noticed that Those Companies pick the ugliest dog almost invariably.
Oh well...
> Get a
> dud of an open source program, have a problem, and you're up the creek
> unless someone there can fix it. Shouldn't have to divert valuable
> production time to fix your tools, y'know?
>
I can't tell you how many times a software vendor has provided me the
opportunity to go around them. Even within their own framework.
Nothing like a four-hour telecon with the lead and an ending like "yeah,
it's broken - dunno how long that'll take". Well, I can't exactly
schedule that, can I? Pot of coffee and four hours, I am good
to go.
>>> There's a Unix-based UML
>>> drawing program that supposedly creates diagrams from source code.
>>> Not on my computer it doesn't. It crashes. Documentation? Some guy
>>> wrote something about 4 revisions back, that doesn't reflect the state
>>> of the thing now at all, but who ya' gonna complain to? There's no
>>> one that's paid to give a d***, so that'd likely be futile anyway.
>> Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five years, but
>> I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't leave the toolchain
>> under you long enough for that to happen.
>
> Too bad its such fun, satisfying work, eh? Oh, well, only the Indians
> and a few others can have that sort of fun any more.
I'm having a ball. :) No, there's a deeper social malaise with all
the instrumentation out there. Started with MacNamara, I think.
>>>> Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more - they
>>>> are online. And increasingly, we're dependent on networking tools
>>>> and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters.
>>> Everything's on Dice, eh?
>> Well.. used to be. Try Indeed now. It'll be different next week.
>
> Ha, how 'bout that. Didn't know it was there. Still doesn't have any
> SW Development jobs in Iraq or Afghanistan. Missed that one job a
> couple years ago that was offered where I work. Make a pile of mony
> in return for maybe getting shot at.
It's a fair trade, and if you're flexible enough ( read: single )
it's probably a good experience. I know I'll probably never see
The Pyramids.
> Finally got a tech writing job
> near Baghdad. Did get shot at. Did make a pile. Will retire earlier
> than I could have otherwise... Maybe something I did will save a (US,
> or even allied) soldier someday.... hoping...
>
Here's hoping.
>>>> Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as
>>>> that whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private
>>>> sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much,
>>>> much dumber.
>>> I wouldn't bet on that. Soon's somebody starts getting complacent,
>>> we'll get hit again, maybe lose more than 3,000 people to some WMD
>>> thing like Anthrax, and then there'll be a new region of the world
>>> that needs their a**'s kicked, and we'll be developing more Tomahawk
>>> software to do new and wonderous things...
>> Okay then....
>> Look... all the Visa and Mastercharge the Mujahadeen used
>> to finance all that... expired.
>>
>> Sorry.
>
> Doesn't matter. They'll find a way, 1000's of Americans will die, our
> side will say in unison, "Told ya' so", and then we'll be off with
> another exeditionary force...
>
I really don't think so. but this is not the place or time...
<snip>
Programming really is testing. Trust me on this.
>> What is the point? Foam-finger "we're #1" rot? That gains us nothing.
>
> I'm not sure what it gains us, either, other than if it's referenced
> to gold, I think that due to our dollar devaluation binge, oil will go
> up faster in price. That would be a bad thing.
>
We'll see. The problem with that, a detail that even Niall
Ferguson misses, is that the Chinese currency is pegged to
the dollar. They've intentionally kept a weak currency to build
market share. They can control money volume internally - all
aspects of life within the Wall are severely subsized/centrally
planned (still).
if we drop, they drop. If they drop, the balance of trade shifts,
mainly to the US. We have improved velocity of money, it
stiffens the currency a little. We just have to be ready to actually
deliver.
All this works out to a self-regulating system whose stability will
be felt, so long as people just don't massively defect.
>>>> 2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class, and we'll be able
>>>> to trade, roughly, goods for goods.
>>> Not if we're not producing anything.
>> Well, I'm trying. me and a half dozen other guys.
>
> We need to be producing something that is valuable andt that millions
> of people want. Cars come to mind, but we have to do it profitably.
> The Fair Tax would make that possible, but I don't know another way to
> do it.
>
it's one theory.
>>>> Right now is a solution to the
>>>> problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer
>>>> Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite
>>>> risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of life
>>>> during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the end, it's
>>>> not really the number that matters, it's what that number will buy, and
>>>> that is actually pretty good, once you get outside of housing. And
>>>> housing is very sharply correcting as we speak...
>>>> 3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And the
>>>> problem is that "government load" in all directions is much lower here
>>>> than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan.
>>> Government load?
>> See also Kirchoff.
>
> Kirchoff made a law of electricity that I dimly remember from early
> training. Oh, I remember how the law works, I just don't remember
> which law was invented by which guy... <G>
>
:) Delta GDP is like unto V. Gummint load is like R in shunt. We want
I. dR/dt > 0 means dI/dt < 1. The secret is to phase government
such that the various delays hide in reluctances and reactances
of more active components of the economy, using lags to swing
things.
problem is, nobody is smart enough to do this.
>>> And the income tax is and has been a disaster for our economy. 2nd
>>> worst idea this country has ever had, right behind slavery.
>> Yet it saw a spike in GDP pretty much unexplained in human history. In
>> real, inflation adjusted GDP.
>
> You mean, the cash for clunkers spike? That one?
>
Yeah, that one :) That's based on the hope of perception being
reality. Didn't get it past you, did they?
>>>> The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've
>>>> seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson has
>>>> discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online.
>>> We're not going to need the social insurance system if we can get
>>> everyone a good job, and that doesn't mean $7 / hr at Wal Mart.
>> Don't bother them with details like that.
>
> I'll bother 'em.
>
I don't know why, but people are just dead set against it. Makes
no sense. Clinton got 'em over it, but since then.... flatness.
>>>>> Then they will of
>>>>> course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon.
>>>> Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
>>> Again, say what? That day will be instant balanced budget day.
>>> Sounds like a bang to me.
>> There will be no sharp edge. It will be a slow decay. "Not with a bang
>> but with a whimper..."
>
> There will be an economic cataclysm on that day. Trust me.
>>>>> The USA
>>>>> will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy.
>>>> Not likely. Zimbabwe has nothing anyone else wants. Of course it
>>>> *can* happen, but ... government debt is a funny thing.
>>> I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a
>>> very, very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in
>>> between.
>> That's a pretty poor analysis at best. Most people *are* in between,
>> and they'll be fine. I expect. If I'm wrong. it really
>> doesn't matter...
>
> They won't be fine, and they're not fine now. Everyone is making less
> money than they should be making, courtesy of the predatory effects of
> the income tax.
What happens is that the system accounts for the income tax and
everybody fudges the numbers to make it work. It's a highly
adaptive system. They find shadows in the tax
code and it all comes out in the wash.
That trend will continue. 'Fer instance, Capt.
> Sully, the Miracle on the Hudson pilot, made $100K last year. All
> that experience, all that capability, and the guy makes $100K, 'cuz
> American airlines are in the toilet, perpetually, due to... at least
> in part... the damned income tax making profitability next to
> impossible in the USA.
No airline has ever earned its cost of capital. Direct quote
from Robert Crandall. Sully has experienced the arrival
of civilization in his specialty.
> Hell, _I_ made $100K last year, courtesy of
> just 1 month of the 3 of my Iraq tour. I wrote counter-IED
> documents. Sully should be making $250K or so for what he does.
>
but grandma wants to pat $75 on Priceline to go see her grandkids
over Thanksgiving.
I know - we used to put on a suit and tie in the '60s to pick people
up at the airport. It was a big deal. Now it's a commodity.
it sure used to be cooler. Now it's just a pain.
>>>>> At that
>>>>> time, I expect thefair taxwill be passed, and maybe it won't be too
>>>>> late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a monumental
>>>>> debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass theFair Tax
>>>>> now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
>>>> But we don't *want* manufacturing jobs. Trust me on this; I've seen
>>>> it first hand. And I've posted "We Can't Make It Here Anymore" lyrics on
>>>> Usenet before...
>>> Who doesn't want manufacturing? I sure as H want manufacturing.
>> Nobody wants it. I saw it firsthand. When people get to vote,
>> the factory goes. People build up resentment like scale in
>> a copper water pipe well grounded.
>
> Where do you live? Probably not in the midwest.
Sorta. My head's there, anyway. Bit farther South, tho. My
accent is, by analysis, Midwestern, and I Get Garrison Keillor.
> Tell people that
> Ford, Chrysler, etc. is going to build a plant in my hometown, and all
> the people there will be sending them Christmas candy. People there
> know where their bread is buttered, not like the whiney bunch where I
> live now, that dedicate their lives to keeping anyone from building
> anything new. Even the Kalihari waterpark in Fredericksburg, Va. has
> had a hard way to go to get built, and this is a tourist area, fer
> cryin' out loud. No, there may not be many new auto plants in
> Virginia, but stick it in Fostoria, Ohio and it will be welcomed with
> open arms.
>
But you've just described *exactly* the premise of "The Music man".
Think Simpsons. Think "Monorail".
>>> This
>>> is the only way that we can give those people that work with their
>>> hands something prosperous to do. Without manufacturing, those guys
>>> that I said can wire and plumb a factory 'fore you can turn around
>>> twice don't have anything significant to do, and end up at... Wal
>>> Mart, stocking the shelves or something.
>> Yeah, but do you consciously buy from them? I try, but it's hopeless.
>
> I buy in Wal Mart - what's so hard about that?
It's poorly organized.
> But we need to get
> people that can work with their hands into jobs that pay $30 / hr, not
> 7. That way, we can tax 'em, and they can have good lives. The Fair
> Tax can do that. I don't know any other way.
>
I hear ya, buddy. I hear ya. I dunno either. But I hear the sound of a
nail being struck on the head.
--
Les Cargull
Les Cargill
Ok.
Programmers should never make things worse. In order to do that,
you have to understand all the people who will be touched by
what you do.
In many cases, that is a lot of different types of people. I
used to think it was about 10 types of people, and it
would take a half a year to understand each enough to where you wouldn't
make patently offensive mistakes.
But now, there's at least twice the number of types of people. 2 times
five is ten.
Most software tools companies last less than six years. So not only
will you have to learn new customers, you'll have to work with a
toolchain that is invariably of lower quality than the one
that went out of business. People go out of software not for being
bad, but for being good. When you are done, you stop.
My estimates are based on *good* programmers. Ones who pretty much
got all they could out of school. The rest will become defensive and
use personal networks to shut down the ones who know what they are
doing.
It used to be the standard was "It works, except for this list of
errors." Now the standard is "It doesn't make anybody mad."
because that's easier to measure. It's noisier. but it's cheap.
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:31:55 -0500, Les Cargill
> <lcarg...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> In the private sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much,
>> much dumber.
>
> Getting dumber? Please expand on that idea.
>
>
*whew*. I dunno. That's a big ole post right there.
but thanks for busting me for saying it. I hooked a
shark with that one, didn't I?
People basically only had the disexperience of things like
Disney or Six Flags, or a restaurant before they became
professional customers or customer advocates ( management ).
As the churn on the economy has heightened, you get
more and more people who, that's all they know. It's a
restaurant experience model. They don't know why they don't
like it, they just don't like it.
Now throw in that complaints are easy data to gather, and
pretty quickly, measurement oriented cultures like
corporations might confuse all that noise for data, and
you get what you have today.
That's what I mean by "dumber". But it's driven by the impulse
to worship the child in each of us, instead of doing the
harder work of adults.
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
That too. but there's a deeper thing here, Rod. The infantization
of us is nowt a good thing.
Thinking don't get a whole lot of headlines these days.
--
Les Cargill
Rod Speed
True. Not sure it ever did tho with programming.
m...@privacy.net
>>> Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five years, but
>>> I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't leave the toolchain
>>> under you long enough for that to happen.
>>
>> please explain ok
>
>Ok.
>
>Programmers should never make things worse. In order to do that,
>you have to understand all the people who will be touched by
>what you do.
I think I understand.... not sure
Reason I ask is I'm taking my first ever C++ course and
learning basic programming.... and one thing I have
learned is I would NEVER want to be a programmer as
just to much SITTING!! It seems like a very UNHEALTHY
career? Yes?
Rod Speed
> Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.net> wrote
>>> please explain ok
>> Ok.
Its something that grabs you or it doesnt.
Its certainly got a lot more SITTING than most.
Very arguable if thats unhealthy or not and you cant ignore the health of your mind either.
m...@privacy.net
>and you cant ignore the health of your mind either.
what do you mean rod?
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> and you cant ignore the health of your mind either.
> what do you mean rod?
That the best thing you can do for the health of your mind is to enjoy what you are doing work wise.
m...@privacy.net
So did you SIT a lot in your career as computer
programmer, Rod?
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> m...@privacy.net wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> and you cant ignore the health of your mind either.
>>> what do you mean rod?
>> That the best thing you can do for the health of
>> your mind is to enjoy what you are doing work wise.
> So did you SIT a lot in your career as computer programmer, Rod?
Yep. Tho I also did other stuff like physically building my own house as well.
I do deliberately get daily exercise as well tho when the weather is decent.
Cindy Hamilton
> Reason I ask is I'm taking my first ever C++ course and
> learning basic programming.... and one thing I have
> learned is I would NEVER want to be a programmer as
> just to much SITTING!! It seems like a very UNHEALTHY
> career? Yes?
It's a fine career. Every day, I come to work and solve
puzzles. And they pay me!
Hardly anybody chooses a career on whether it's healthy.
They mainly look for something they can make money at.
Cindy Hamilton
Rod Speed
> m...@privacy.net wrote
>> Reason I ask is I'm taking my first ever C++ course and
>> learning basic programming.... and one thing I have learned
>> is I would NEVER want to be a programmer as just to much
>> SITTING!! It seems like a very UNHEALTHY career? Yes?
> It's a fine career. Every day, I come to work and solve puzzles. And they pay me!
> Hardly anybody chooses a career on whether it's healthy.
Quite a few avoid the careers that are unhealthy tho.
> They mainly look for something they can make money at.
And some of us do what we like doing and sometimes some are happy
to pay us very well for doing what we would happily do for free.
h
"Cindy Hamilton" <angelica...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:93e72c96-a6a1-4ff3...@g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Hmm, I picked my career because it's what I like to do.
Gary Heston
>"Cindy Hamilton" <angelica...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:93e72c96-a6a1-4ff3...@g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>On Nov 5, 1:18 pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
>> Reason I ask is I'm taking my first ever C++ course and
>> learning basic programming.... and one thing I have
>> learned is I would NEVER want to be a programmer as
>> just to much SITTING!! It seems like a very UNHEALTHY
>> career? Yes?
Depends upon what you do with the rest of your time. You can
engage in active sports like biking, rock climbing, hiking,
etc. and stay in great shape.
>>>It's a fine career. Every day, I come to work and solve
>>>puzzles. And they pay me!
>>>Hardly anybody chooses a career on whether it's healthy.
>>>They mainly look for something they can make money at.
>Hmm, I picked my career because it's what I like to do.
Mine grew out of my hobby--computers. Now, I get paid to
pursue my hobby, and have lots of neat toys to play with,
which I don't have to pay for.
Gary
--
Gary Heston ghe...@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
"Where large, expensive pieces of exotic woods are converted to valueless,
hard to dispose of sawdust, chips and scraps." Charlie B.s' definition of
woodworking.