How are u playing the gasoline game?
James
just half a tank in case prices drop.
h
"James" <j006...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e6c5c8ce-93fa-410f...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> I'm starting to fill up to avoid higher prices later. Used to get
> just half a tank in case prices drop.
I fill up once every 6-7 weeks just as always.
bitbucket
| I'm starting to fill up to avoid higher prices later. Used to get
| just half a tank in case prices drop.
filling up more often as prices are rising keeps average cost per gallon down.
Ron Peterson
> I'm starting to fill up to avoid higher prices later. Used to get
> just half a tank in case prices drop.
Although my gas milage is 20 MPG on the highway, I don't drive enough
to justify a new fuel efficient vehicle.
When the pavement gets bare, I will start bicycling again.
Buying energy stocks acts like insurance against higher oil prices.
--
Ron
Al Bundy
> I'm starting to fill up to avoid higher prices later. Used to get
> just half a tank in case prices drop.
Best to run off the top half of the tank with modern vehicles. This
keeps the in-tank pump running cooler and helps push gas through. A
pump replacement in some vehicles can cost $900 or more. Running the
pump dry can burn it up in short order. The other games with trying to
hedge prices won't save you anything as it all averages out. Prices
are up and down. They simply don't go from $3 to $4 overnight.
Shawn Hirn
<e6c5c8ce-93fa-410f...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
James <j006...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm starting to fill up to avoid higher prices later. Used to get
> just half a tank in case prices drop.
I live in a northern state and I was taught by my dad to keep my car's
tank full as much as possible so condensation doesn't build up in the
tank. I don't know how true it is, but that's what I always do.
Years ago, I moved very close to work, so my commute averages about 20
minutes each way in normal traffic. Were in not for a bridge I have to
pass over, my commute would be even shorter.
I also recently replaced my old car with a Toyota Prius because I fully
expect the price of gas to go even higher over the life of the car. When
the weather is nice, I frequently take public transportation to work,
then I walk home after work and I also combine as many shopping trips as
possible. I have been doing most of this stuff for many years though,
even before gas started getting so high in cost because of environmental
concerns.
Anthony Matonak
...
> I live in a northern state and I was taught by my dad to keep my car's
> tank full as much as possible so condensation doesn't build up in the
> tank. I don't know how true it is, but that's what I always do.
Now that they put alcohol in fuel I'm told this is less of an issue.
The alcohol mixes with the water and removes it from the tank.
Here in Los Angeles we get about 10% alcohol in our gasoline.
Anthony
Dennis
<antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>Shawn Hirn wrote:
>Now that they put alcohol in fuel I'm told this is less of an issue.
>The alcohol mixes with the water and removes it from the tank.
>Here in Los Angeles we get about 10% alcohol in our gasoline.
Since the beginning of the year, 10% alcohol has been required here,
too. I noticed an immediate 8-10% drop in fuel mileage. That means
that before the change, I would use 9 gallons of gasoline for my
weekly driving and now I use almost 9 gallons of gasoline and 1 gallon
of alcohol to go the same distance.
How is this either helping the environment or reducing the demand for
petroleum?
Dennis (evil)
--
An inherent weakness of a pure democracy is that half
the voters are below average intelligence.
WaterBoy
i bicycle..as i always have
saves gas, and saves on medical bills [exercise]
i'm semi-retired though, which probably isn't average;
my only money endeavors are now on the WWW
it disturbs me some to have a 2003 car in the garage
with 16,000 miles on it!
waterboy
Terry Lomax
> Since the beginning of the year, 10% alcohol has been required here,
> too. I noticed an immediate 8-10% drop in fuel mileage. That means
> that before the change, I would use 9 gallons of gasoline for my
> weekly driving and now I use almost 9 gallons of gasoline and 1 gallon
> of alcohol to go the same distance.
>
> How is this either helping the environment or reducing the demand for
> petroleum?
It gets a lot worse than that if the alcohol is ethanol. To create a
gallon of ethanol, it takes way more than a gallon of real oil,
therefore all ethanol use INCREASES the demand for petroleum. Your 9
gallons of gasoline and 1 gallon of alcohol uses about 10.5 gallons of
real gasoline. Ethanol also wrecks your engine. It also results in
huge increases in food prices. All subsidies to American farmers
should be abolished.
Terryc
> it disturbs me some to have a 2003 car in the garage
> with 16,000 miles on it!
Ummm, worry about it in 2018.
Terryc
> Ethanol also wrecks your engine.
AFAIK, this isn't a blanket statement. When challenged, the automotive
companies couldn't provided evidence that it did other than an
unconvinving waffle about seals.
OTH, being skeptical is wise.
> It also results in huge increases in food prices.
> All subsidies to American farmers should be abolished.
All subsidies to all farmers hould be abolished
>
Anthony Matonak
> Terry Lomax wrote:
>> All subsidies to American farmers should be abolished.
> All subsidies to all farmers hould be abolished
Anthony
The Real Bev
> <antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Shawn Hirn wrote:
>
>>Now that they put alcohol in fuel I'm told this is less of an issue.
>>The alcohol mixes with the water and removes it from the tank.
>>Here in Los Angeles we get about 10% alcohol in our gasoline.
>
> Since the beginning of the year, 10% alcohol has been required here,
> too. I noticed an immediate 8-10% drop in fuel mileage. That means
> that before the change, I would use 9 gallons of gasoline for my
> weekly driving and now I use almost 9 gallons of gasoline and 1 gallon
> of alcohol to go the same distance.
>
> How is this either helping the environment or reducing the demand for
> petroleum?
See that smoke and those mirrors stacked up over there in the corner?
--
Cheers,
Bev
==================================================
Is the Pope Catholic? Do bears shit in the woods?
Does Rose Kennedy have a black dress?
Shawn Hirn
Anthony Matonak <antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
In which case, the Internet would be years behind.
Jeff
> On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 21:25:08 -0800, Anthony Matonak
> <antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Shawn Hirn wrote:
>
>> Now that they put alcohol in fuel I'm told this is less of an issue.
>> The alcohol mixes with the water and removes it from the tank.
>> Here in Los Angeles we get about 10% alcohol in our gasoline.
>
> Since the beginning of the year, 10% alcohol has been required here,
> too. I noticed an immediate 8-10% drop in fuel mileage.
I'm a little surprised at the size of the drop. I would have expected it
to be about 5% as ethanol has about half the heat value of gas and
should get about half the mileage.
That means
> that before the change, I would use 9 gallons of gasoline for my
> weekly driving and now I use almost 9 gallons of gasoline and 1 gallon
> of alcohol to go the same distance.
>
> How is this either helping the environment or reducing the demand for
> petroleum?
It looks to me like a huge ripoff. There's a 51 cent/gallon federal
tax credit that makes it economically feasible to sell corn based
ethanol. What's the real cost when you factor in much higher food costs?
I don't know, it certainly would make more sense all around to import
brazilian sugar cane based ethanol if it weren't for the need to support
corporate farming in the US.
As far as the net energy balance of producing ethanol it's somewhat of
a wash. About half the studies think it's a net positive. It seems to me
like a high price to pay for maybe oil conservative, maybe not.
Jeff
Don K
news:63bcqoF...@mid.individual.net...
That's like taking on a part-time job at below minimum wage.
You spend about 5 minutes every time you stop for gas to fill up.
If the price goes up after *every* fillup, then for every penny increase,
you'd "earn" about $1.20 per hour for your time.
If the price doesn't go up after each and every filling, your pay rate decreases.
Don
Patient Guy
> In article
> <e6c5c8ce-93fa-410f...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> James <j006...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I also recently replaced my old car with a Toyota Prius because I fully
> expect the price of gas to go even higher over the life of the car.
I was just watching a Fox Noise early Saturday morning "cost of freedom"
show, and one of their typically idiot analysts said that a hybrid costing
$9000 more---does it?----means that the owner will not re-coup that cost
in fuel savings presumbably over the life of the vehicle.
I have been trying to make calculations to determine whether that is true.
Assume you are comparing two car buyers. One buys the average gas guzzler
on the road----an SUV that gets 15 mpg city mileage----and laughs
uncontrollably at the other one who buys a hybrid---say a Prius getting 50
mpg in the city. Assume that the Prius buyer paid $9000 more (don't
forget to include taxes and govt fees here, and maybe interest on the
loan, if any) for the vehicle (this is the analyst's statement...feel free
to chime in with an alternate or true reality and mess with these
figures). For the question below, you will need to also assume that both
drivers put 15,000 miles annually on their vehicles, and also assume that
the price of gas is the current price of gas, let's say $3.50 / gallon.
The question before you is "how many months will it take for the Prius
owner to realize the fuel savings for the additional $9000 he put into the
vehicle?" You might also want to factor in a reasonable estimation of
the depreciation/re-sale value of the Prius vs. the SUV.
The Prius driver gets 35 mpg (= 50 - 15) more than the SUV driver.
gal 35 miles year 12 months
$9000 * ------- * --------- * ------------ * --------- = 72 months
$3.50 gal 15,000 miles year
In other words, it will take exactly 6 years for the Prius owner to be
able to laugh uncontrollably at the SUV driver and to be able to say that
he's starting to realize those fuel savings.
Of course, you can argue with the assumptions about the $9000 additional
cost, the price of gasoline remaining steady, or the annual mileage use.
Feel free to interject with what you may consider to be more realistic
numbers here, or even an actual comparison!
Lou
"Patient Guy" <sevisen.adam@gmailDOTHEREcom> wrote in message
news:Xns9A5B5B7...@207.115.33.102...
Well, considering that the average life of a car in the US is 12-13 years,
I'd say that your numbers tend to confirm what that analyst said.
But your comparison between such two very different vehicles is
unreasonable. You pay a premium for a hybrid vehicle, and it takes time to
recoup that premium in the form of reduced fuel usage. To judge whether
it's worth it or not, comparisons should be between similar vehicles. If I
posted figures comparing the Ford Escape SUV hybrid (which is rated pretty
decent, mileage-wise) and a Toyota Yaris, I could easily show that the
non-hybrid would be a smarter buy, but you would very reasonably object that
comparing what amounts to a truck with a compact car wasn't fair.
Pulling figures from www.edmunds.com, a basic Honda civic sedan hybrid has a
five year "true cost to own" (based on 15,000 miles per year, and includes
depreciation, financing, insurances, taxes, fuel, maintenance, and repairs)
of $35,912. (Edmunds comes up with the same number for the Prius)
Meanwhile, a basic Honda civic sedan (since the hybrid has a continuously
variable transmission, I'm looking at the non-hybrid with automatic
transmission) has a true cost to own over 5 years of $32, 373.
That's a 5 year cost difference of $3,539 in favor of the non hybrid.
There's an initial purchase price difference of $6,790 - if you're not
financing the car but paying cash on the barrelhead, calculate what that
difference could earn using whatever set of assumptions you like.
Not a stunning difference, but still over 5 years you'll likely spend more
to drive a hybrid than a COMPARABLE non-hybrid. You'll spend more on gas
for the non-hybrid, but more than make up for that savings in increased
financing and depreciation costs. If your aim is to save gas, buy the
hybrid. If your aim is to save money, buy the non hybrid.
user1...@aol.com
> Years ago, I moved very close to work, so my commute averages about 20
> minutes each way in normal traffic. Were in not for a bridge I have to
> pass over, my commute would be even shorter.
>
I wish I could have a short commute. Every time I go jobseeking, it
seems there is always only one "good" job out of the 20 or 30 I check
out, and this "good" job is always far away from me, and the so-so
jobs are all close. So I end up going for the "good" job (higherpay,
better hours, bens, everything) and suffering the commute.
On ethanol, I fear that it does eat away at seals. My car has a
carburetor, which has seals, so I worry about it.
The greedheads are now talking about bumping it up from 10% ethanol
to 20% ethanol, which will suck even more for Joe Average, but hey it
will make money for corporations like ADM and Exxon/Mobil , and we all
know corprations are God, so I guess we must have more ethanol.
And keep that BushFlation going, since we need more easy money to
pay off the Iraq oil war debt.
Don K
news:Xns9A5B5B7...@207.115.33.102...
>
> able to laugh uncontrollably at the SUV driver and to be able to say that
> he's starting to realize those fuel savings.
If you made the comparison between similar vehicles,
(like hybrid Prius vs. gas Honda Civic), it would take much longer
to even be able to chuckle a little without a subsidy.
Don
Rod Speed
> Patient Guy <sevisen.adam@gmailDOTHEREcom> wrote
>> In other words, it will take exactly 6 years for the Prius owner to be able to laugh uncontrollably at the SUV driver
>> and to be able to say that he's starting to realize those fuel savings.
> If you made the comparison between similar vehicles,
> (like hybrid Prius vs. gas Honda Civic), it would take much longer to even be able to chuckle a little without a
> subsidy.
A Prius has more room inside it than a Civic.
Patient Guy
So what type of owners are really buying these hybrids...people who say
they are helping the automakers "invest in green technology"? Is this just
a extra cost being paid to "feel good about being green" or is it abject
stupidity?
One thing I failed to factor in is the repair/overhaul/maintenance costs,
which are higher for the hybrid...what are the costs of battery replacement
among other major parts.
I wonder about these things because I just returned to the United States
after 15 years away---except for a 3-year period where I bought a used
Saturn to get around, only to find out the automatic transmission was full
of sawdust.
I will have get some wheels soon, and my net worth is effectively zero upon
re-patriation (all my net worth is back with my wife and kid overseas). I
am wondering if I should get something used (pre-owned) for maybe up to
$5000 or try to get credit on a new vehicle, gas or hybrid...now I am no
longer convinced the hybrid will pay off for me if I go new.
max
Patient Guy <sevisen.adam@gmailDOTHEREcom> wrote:
> One thing I failed to factor in is the repair/overhaul/maintenance costs,
> which are higher for the hybrid...what are the costs of battery replacement
> among other major parts.
somewhere aroud 5~8 years, plus, it might be worth talking about.
maybe, only maybe. Other than that, there's not any meaningful magical
differences to talk about.
A little googling quickly revealed that many of these batteries that
needed replacement simply needed a corroded terminal cleaned on one of
the cells.
So what you're really complaining about is shoddy/dishonest/incompetent
work by car dealerships addressing a problem the car owner could have
corrected in less than fifteen minutes with tools that fit in your shirt
pocket.
Big Deal.
.max
--
This signature can be appended to your outgoing mesages. Many people include in
their signatures contact information, and perhaps a joke or quotation.
Ron Peterson
> Since the beginning of the year, 10% alcohol has been required here,
> too. I noticed an immediate 8-10% drop in fuel mileage. That means
> that before the change, I would use 9 gallons of gasoline for my
> weekly driving and now I use almost 9 gallons of gasoline and 1 gallon
> of alcohol to go the same distance.
Gasohol has 3.1% less energy per gallon, so you should have done
better. Do you normally use premium gasoline? I was thinking that a
drop in octane rating could cause the drop in mpg.
--
Ron
Jeff
You math is wrong.
Let's look at what it actually costs to run each vehicle for 15,000
miles (1 year)
Prius (15,000 miles/ 50 mpg) * 3.50 = $1,050
SUV (15,000 / 15 mpg) * 3.50 = $3,500
Prius saving each year is $2450
or 3 2/3 years, not 6.
Jeff
Rod Speed
>>> In other words, it will take exactly 6 years for the Prius owner
>>> to be able to laugh uncontrollably at the SUV driver and to be
>>> able to say that he's starting to realize those fuel savings.
>> If you made the comparison between similar vehicles,
>> (like hybrid Prius vs. gas Honda Civic), it would take much
>> longer to even be able to chuckle a little without a subsidy.
> So what type of owners are really buying these hybrids...
Basically those who are too stupid to be able to calculate the effect on the
environment and include the environmental costs of the battery technology they use.
> people who say they are helping the automakers "invest in green technology"?
Nope, they most do believe that they are helping the environment.
But are too stupid to realise that they would help it much more if they
didnt use a car at all, used public transport, or if that isnt feasible,
use an older fuel efficient car to the minimum necessary so there
is no environmental cost involved in making the new Prius etc.
> Is this just a extra cost being paid to "feel good about being green"
Thats certainly the case with many of them.
> or is it abject stupidity?
Not abject, just substantial stupidity with most of them.
> One thing I failed to factor in is the repair/overhaul/maintenance
> costs, which are higher for the hybrid...
That depends on how long you keep it for.
> what are the costs of battery replacement among other major parts.
Substantial, but most discard it before that is necessary.
> I wonder about these things because I just returned to the
> United States after 15 years away---except for a 3-year
> period where I bought a used Saturn to get around, only
> to find out the automatic transmission was full of sawdust.
> I will have get some wheels soon, and my net worth is effectively
> zero upon re-patriation (all my net worth is back with my wife and
> kid overseas). I am wondering if I should get something used
> (pre-owned) for maybe up to $5000
Thats basically the lowest cost motoring.
> or try to get credit on a new vehicle, gas or hybrid...
Thats never the cheapest route, but it is usually the least hassle.
> now I am no longer convinced the hybrid will pay off for me if I go new.
Yeah, they've never made sense value wise.
Ron Peterson
> So what type of owners are really buying these hybrids...people who say
> they are helping the automakers "invest in green technology"? Is this just
> a extra cost being paid to "feel good about being green" or is it abject
> stupidity?
The ones that can afford it are buying the hybrids, especially if they
drive more than average. My sister and her husband both have hybrids
and her husband traded in his BMW for a Prius.
I have been buying American cars, but may switch if I can't find a
decent American hybrid.
Hybrids have much higher trade-in values, lower brake wear, better
stability control, better gas milage, and possibly better
acceleration.
> I will have get some wheels soon, and my net worth is effectively zero upon
> re-patriation (all my net worth is back with my wife and kid overseas). I
> am wondering if I should get something used (pre-owned) for maybe up to
> $5000 or try to get credit on a new vehicle, gas or hybrid...now I am no
> longer convinced the hybrid will pay off for me if I go new.
In your situation, I would buy a used vehicle. Depreciation on a new
vehicle is a killer.
--
Ron
George Grapman
hybrid can use car pool lanes avoiding both the toll and,more
importantly, the wait.
Shawn Hirn
Patient Guy <sevisen.adam@gmailDOTHEREcom> wrote:
> "Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote in misc.consumers.frugal-living:
>
> > "Patient Guy" <sevisen.adam@gmailDOTHEREcom> wrote in message
> > news:Xns9A5B5B7...@207.115.33.102...
> >>
> >> In other words, it will take exactly 6 years for the Prius owner to
> >> be able to laugh uncontrollably at the SUV driver and to be able to
> >> say that he's starting to realize those fuel savings.
> >
> > If you made the comparison between similar vehicles,
> > (like hybrid Prius vs. gas Honda Civic), it would take much longer
> > to even be able to chuckle a little without a subsidy.
>
> So what type of owners are really buying these hybrids...people who say
> they are helping the automakers "invest in green technology"? Is this just
> a extra cost being paid to "feel good about being green" or is it abject
> stupidity?
>
> One thing I failed to factor in is the repair/overhaul/maintenance costs,
> which are higher for the hybrid...what are the costs of battery replacement
> among other major parts.
Where did you get that idea? Very few owners of older Priuses have had
to replace their car's batteries. Due to the high reliability rate, the
maintenance cost of a Prius should be no more than a conventional car,
if not less.
Battery technology is also improving. When I looked into that issue
before I bought my 2008 Prius, I found out, the batteries can often be
bought on eBay for a fraction of the cost. Used Prius batteries
typically come from cars that have been in an accident and totaled. In
some cases, just one cell in the battery goes bad, which can be fixed
without replacing the battery for a modest amount of money.
If you look on http://www.priuschat.com there are people there who have
the first generation Prius with over 250,000 miles on it.
Shawn Hirn
Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
I have a 2008 Prius, which I bought six weeks ago ... and I love it!
Both of you based your calculations as if the price of gas is static,
but we all know it goes up every year. According to my own calculations
based on info from http://www.gasbuddy.com, gas has gone up an average
of 25 cents per gallon per year over the past six years, so I will
assume the same for the next six years. You are also doing your
comparison over a six year period, but most people keep their cars for
10-12 years, plus the cost of gas will rise each of those years.
If yo assume an average price per gallon for gas of $4.125 over the next
six years, the calculation is
Prius (15,000 / 40 MPG) * 4.125 = $1,547
vs
SUV (15,000 / 15 MPG) * 4.125 = $4,125
But let's compare apples with apples, so comparing my Prius with my real
world results with a similar car with a gas only engine that gets 30 MPG,
Other car (15,000 / 30 MPG) * $4.125 = $2,063
Keep in mind, that six years from now, this comparison will show higher
numbers across the board because the averages do not reflect what we
will actually pay at the pump. The price at the pump will likely be
higher than the averages over time.
Over six years, the SUV owner will spend at least $24,750 in gas, the
owner of the conventional car will spend at least $12,378 for gas, and I
will spend $9,282. So if you take the extra $7,000 I might have spent
more that I spent on my Prius then the other car owner spent, I am
behind $4,000, but there are other factors, such as the features in the
car and the fact that I am also meeting a very important need I have
which is to be as environmentally friendly as I can.
Note that for now, my Prius is also getting 40 MPG, but I am told by
other Prius owners, that's because I am still learning to drive it
economically (driving style makes a big difference), its still in its
break in period, plus the heater uses up a lot of energy in the winter.
There's the value of time. I expect to spend less time at gas stations
filling up my Prius over the life of the car. Time = money, but I won't
bother calculating that out because people value their time very
differently. I work in IT and my time is valued very highly, so that
extra $4,000 is actually reduced just because I will spend less time
filling up my car.
My Prius was purchased for $24,000, including all the taxes, fees, etc.
It has what Toyota refers to as package #2. An SUV with similar options
as my Prius would easily run me an extra $11,000.
Yes, I spent more on my Prius than a Yaris or Corolla, both of which get
very good gas milage. Unlike the Yaris and most other other cars that
get great gas milage, my Prius has extra features I can't get on those
other cars, such as keyless entry, engine immobilizer, backup camera,
vehicle stability control, anti-lock brakes, anti skid control, extra
air bags, automatic climate control, hatch back, tire pressure monitor,
and built-in iPod support. I also wanted a car with a hatch back so I
can easily stow my folding bike and camping gear. Few cars with high gas
milage offer a hatch back.
Also, the Prius has a great depreciation rate. Try shopping online for a
used Prius. A 2007 Prius I saw with 25,000 miles was only $800 less than
the new Prius I bought.
Although I paid extra, I also got a lot more car for the money over cars
in with good fuel economy. I could have also bought a base model Prius
for at least $2,000 less if I wanted to give up some features such as
keyless entry. Consumer Reports also claims in its current April 2008
issue that the Prius is one of the most reliable cars on the market with
a high rate of customer satisfaction, which is important in an
intangible way. The Prius is also one of the safest in its class, which
helps to keep the cost of insuring it down.
Some states may also offer a tax break for registering a hybrid. In
addition, some auto lenders give a reduced interest rate to those who
buy a hybrid.
PaPaPeng
<sevisen.adam@gmailDOTHEREcom> wrote:
>I have been trying to make calculations to determine whether that is true.
For a certain mass M it takes X amount of energy to move it from A to
B. This is an absolute amount X that obeys the immutable laws of
physics where Work = Force x Distance (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_work for full explanation.)
The gains through technology comes from reducing the frictional losses
(better rotatory mechanical parts and better streamlining) and higher
engine efficiency. There is not much to choose between different
makes of cars with regard to technology derived efficiency as the
discussion in this thread shows. There are many tradeoff and no one
can come up with any convincing evidence that one technology is better
than the other. To survive as a car maker everyone of them uses the
best technology available for the price.
The real variables that do make a difference in economy and in carbon
footprint are the mass of the car and your driving habits. So just
buy the smallest car that meets your needs and drive sensibly (no
jackrabbit starts or hard braking.) I wouldn't bother with all those
fancy calculations.
John Weiss
>
> The Prius driver gets 35 mpg (= 50 - 15) more than the SUV driver.
>
> gal 35 miles year 12 months
> $9000 * ------- * --------- * ------------ * --------- = 72 months
> $3.50 gal 15,000 miles year
>
> In other words, it will take exactly 6 years for the Prius owner to be
> able to laugh uncontrollably at the SUV driver and to be able to say that
> he's starting to realize those fuel savings.
>
> Of course, you can argue with the assumptions about the $9000 additional
> cost, the price of gasoline remaining steady, or the annual mileage use.
>
> Feel free to interject with what you may consider to be more realistic
> numbers here, or even an actual comparison!
Assume there are 1 million gallons of gasoline available in the world.
Should we use them to drive a 15 MPG SUV or a 50 MPG Prius?
We're not that low yet, but the concept is the same in reality. Until
people realize that there is more to "saving energy" than the cost of
driving a car, we're going to STAY in trouble!
Rod Speed
> "Patient Guy" <sevisen.adam@gmailDOTHEREcom> wrote...
>>
>> The Prius driver gets 35 mpg (= 50 - 15) more than the SUV driver.
>>
>> gal 35 miles year 12 months
>> $9000 * ------- * --------- * ------------ * --------- = 72 months
>> $3.50 gal 15,000 miles year
>>
>> In other words, it will take exactly 6 years for the Prius owner to
>> be able to laugh uncontrollably at the SUV driver and to be able to
>> say that he's starting to realize those fuel savings.
>>
>> Of course, you can argue with the assumptions about the $9000
>> additional cost, the price of gasoline remaining steady, or the
>> annual mileage use. Feel free to interject with what you may consider to be more
>> realistic numbers here, or even an actual comparison!
> Assume there are 1 million gallons of gasoline available in the world.
Stupid assumption. The real world is MUCH more complicated than that.
> Should we use them to drive a 15 MPG SUV or a 50 MPG Prius?
And that in spades.
> We're not that low yet, but the concept is the same in reality.
Nope, and nothing like it either.
> Until people realize that there is more to "saving energy" than the cost of driving a car, we're going to STAY in
> trouble!
And we would be even if everyone changed to a Prius.
Don Klipstein
>On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:59:42 GMT, Patient Guy
><sevisen.adam@gmailDOTHEREcom> wrote:
>
>>I have been trying to make calculations to determine whether that is true.
>
>For a certain mass M it takes X amount of energy to move it from A to
>B. This is an absolute amount X that obeys the immutable laws of
>physics where Work = Force x Distance (see
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_work for full explanation.)
>
>The gains through technology comes from reducing the frictional losses
>(better rotatory mechanical parts and better streamlining) and higher
>engine efficiency.
Regenerative braking also helps quite a bit, so that the vehicle's
kinetic energy is partially recovered during braking rather than being
entirely converted to heat. This is why the Prius has extremely high city
MPG but its highway MPG is something non-hybrid cars can achieve.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Sharon
> "Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote in misc.consumers.frugal-living:
>
>> "Patient Guy" <sevisen.adam@gmailDOTHEREcom> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9A5B5B7...@207.115.33.102...
>>>
>>> be able to laugh uncontrollably at the SUV driver and to be able to
>>> say that he's starting to realize those fuel savings.
>>
>> (like hybrid Prius vs. gas Honda Civic), it would take much longer
>> to even be able to chuckle a little without a subsidy.
>
> So what type of owners are really buying these hybrids...people who say
> they are helping the automakers "invest in green technology"? Is this just
> a extra cost being paid to "feel good about being green" or is it abject
> stupidity?
>
> One thing I failed to factor in is the repair/overhaul/maintenance costs,
> which are higher for the hybrid...what are the costs of battery replacement
> among other major parts.
>
> after 15 years away---except for a 3-year period where I bought a used
> Saturn to get around, only to find out the automatic transmission was full
> of sawdust.
>
> re-patriation (all my net worth is back with my wife and kid overseas). I
> am wondering if I should get something used (pre-owned) for maybe up to
> $5000 or try to get credit on a new vehicle, gas or hybrid...now I am no
> longer convinced the hybrid will pay off for me if I go new.
Just one anecdote for your perusal: I was a long-time lover of Dodge
Dakota trucks. Last two vehicles were Dakotas, spanning a couple decades
total. My last Dakota, with very low mileage because I try to keep my commutes
as short as possible, got an average of 14mpg. I was refilling it about every
week and a half at around $65 a pop. Last summer the truck was 10 years old,
and I decided it was time for a new vehicle. I checked Dodge online and found
that estimated price for a new Dakota was about $25,000. I paid $23K for the
one I had when it was new, so I consider that a reasonable price.
But I was sick of the escalating gas prices, so I also researched
Priuses. Bottom line: I bought a 2007 Prius for $23,000. I've been getting
between 45 - 50 mpg. I've been refilling it about every 2.5 weeks (the Prius
has an 11-gallon gtank compared to the 20-gallon tank in the Dakota) at about
$25/pop.
So for me at least, there was no price premium on the Prius, but my
fuel savings are very clear. Oh, and repair track records over the 8 years
that Prius has been in the U.S. is equable to any other car. Yes, the hybrid
battery is expensive to replace, but it lasts the life of the car except for
occasional isolated problems.
- Sharon
"Gravity... is a harsh mistress!"
Seerialmom
It's similar to a program our local utility company has here where the
"eco-conscious" customers "pay" to have their electricity from "green"
resources (vs where you could sign up to get a discount by having them
shut off the AC during Peak Hours).
See: http://www.smud.org/community-environment/greenergy/index.html
BTW the upfront cost was the reason I opted for a Yaris over a Prius
and also why I held on to my Festiva for 10 years. The Festiva paid
for itself over and over again and never had any "major" problems
(just standard brakes, oil changes, maintenance).
Seerialmom
>
> - Show quoted text -
Unless they have a special "new" program in SF only, new Hybrid
owners can't drive in the car pool lanes; the state ran out of the
stickers you have to have affixed to the bumper. But I believe they
are transferrable..so if you happen upon one at a used
dealership...grab it ;)
James
city stop & go traffic and not on the highway crusing at 65.
Seerialmom
> Do you save anything on long trips? I understand the savings is in
> city stop & go traffic and not on the highway crusing at 65.
That's my understanding about the hybrids as well. And since the
majority of my driving is "highway"; it doesn't make sense. However,
it'd be fine with rush hour gridlock, right?
TKM
"Sharon" <fr...@encompasserve.org> wrote in message
news:704DM2...@eisner.encompasserve.org...
It was very simple for me.
About a year ago, I concluded that gas prices were going nowhere but up and
that would go on for the forseeable future. It was time to do something
about that. I looked around and checked out the Prius along with other high
mpg cars. The Prius was the only one where there seemed to be no compromise
with space and the driving experience and it did get the highest mileage as
well.
After almost two years with my 2006, there are no disappointments. Sure,
the traction battery can fail, but engines and transmissions, which cost
about the same as a battery, can fail too. The Prius is a remarkable
ar -- it's the only one that I know of that's optimized. Everything is
designed to act like a normal car and yet get the maximum gas mileage. It
has been fun to find that all out.
I wish the heater had a bit more output and I wish that the gas mileage
didn't go down in the winter when the heater runs a lot. But, it still gets
over 32 mpg at its worst and my Volvo and Toyoto Camry (previous cars)
didn't do anywhere near that.
Discussions about payback don't make any sense to me. No car has a payback.
TKM
Rod Speed
The higher cost of a hybrid car does.
Don Klipstein
>Do you save anything on long trips? I understand the savings is in
>city stop & go traffic and not on the highway crusing at 65.
I see the Prius barely keeping even with top non-hybrid cars for highway
MPG, and getting ahead in MPG over non-hybrid cars when the driving
conditions get more stop-and-go, especially when go is near or under 35
MPH.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
barbie gee
Depends on the car, the driver, and the traffic.
(2005 Prius)
I get best mileage at 55-65mph on the highway, good mileage on the highway
in slow but moving traffic, and crappy mpg when driving on arterial
streets with lots of stop lights where you cannot avoid full stops and
starts every half mile. (think Chicago.)
YMMV.
check here;
<http://www.fueleconomy.gov/>
P.O.W.
fr...@encompasserve.org (Sharon) wrote:
ya know all the energy the Prius uses is from gas . Some Euro models
have the connection to plug 'em in to the grid or a solar panel.
the U.S. model does not have that option... Yet.
--
when you believe the only tool you have is a hammer.
problems tend to look like nails.
barbie gee
On Tue, 11 Mar 2008, Shawn Hirn wrote:
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.08...@sghcrg.sghcrg.pbz>,
> Right. As a recent Prius owner, (about 7 weeks), I am learning this
> first hand. I also see that the fuel economy goes up when I don't use
> the climate control. The Prius' heater really consumes a lot of energy.
>
welcome to the family, Shawn!
As you do more research, you'll find lots of little tweaks and tricks to
optimize mileage;
use higher psi in the tires (I do 40 front, 38 rear, although some do
42/40), coast a lot (unfortunately other drivers seem to hate it, even if
you're coasting to a RED light. people stupid.), learn to "feather" and so
on...
I'll never understand the folks with that "it'll never pay for itself"
argument. Does the "premium" they pay for fancy rims, booming sound
systems or some other fancy feature "pay for itself"? Why can't they
understand that for us, a hybrid engine is the fancy feature we are
willing to pay extra for?
Anthony Matonak
...
> Even so, the Prius does not get its energy entirely from gas. You are
> simply wrong on that statement. A good deal of the battery recharging on
> a Prius comes from what Toyota calls "regenerative braking" which takes
> kinetic energy that would have been wasted from the brakes and uses it
> to recharge the battery. Its quite ingenious.
Just to be technical, the kinetic energy from the moving car was
provided by the gas engine. This means that all the energy came
from gas to start with.
Anthony
barbie gee
even when it's running in battery only mode?
this starts to look like a bit of hair-splitting, dontcha think?
Dennis
Yes, even when it's running in battery only mode. The energy in the
battery came from the gasoline fuel, by way of the engine and
alternator.
>this starts to look like a bit of hair-splitting, dontcha think?
Not at all. Where else would it come from? Does the Prius convert
sunlight or windpower? No. Every joule of energy used by the Prius
comes from the gasoline put in the tank.
Now, if you do want to split hairs, you could claim that the initial
charge in the battery when it was installed was not produced by the
gasoline in the tank... ;-)
Dennis (evil)
--
I'm behind the eight ball, ahead of the curve, riding the wave,
dodging the bullet and pushing the envelope. -George Carlin
Rod Speed
Your problem.
> Does the "premium" they pay for fancy rims, booming sound
> systems or some other fancy feature "pay for itself"?
Irrelevant to whether the higher price of a Prius
over a conventional equivalent car pays for itself.
> Why can't they understand that for us, a hybrid engine is the fancy feature we are willing to pay extra for?
Its only value is the better fuel consumption. What matters is whether
the higher capital cost ever pays for itself with the better fuel consumption.
Jeff
But, where does the battery get it's energy from? The gas engine, of course!
We are not talking about plug ins.
> this starts to look like a bit of hair-splitting, dontcha think?
Not really, the energy from the regenerative braking originally came
from the gas engine. Even if you are going down hill, the energy to get
uphill came from the gas engine, or the battery which of course is
charged from the gas engine.
What we are doing is managing the energy from the gas engine very
effectively.
Now, I wonder about using some other engine. Stirlings could make an
efficient battery charger. That would require a larger battery as you
would be running primarily off the electric motor, but I suspect that
the mileage could be very good. Now, I don't expect anything like this
in the near future, but I suspect in 25 years stirling hybrids and
plugins will be common.
Jeff
barbie gee
that's exactly what I was thinking!
Vic Smith
>
> Now, I wonder about using some other engine. Stirlings could make an
>efficient battery charger. That would require a larger battery as you
>would be running primarily off the electric motor, but I suspect that
>the mileage could be very good. Now, I don't expect anything like this
>in the near future, but I suspect in 25 years stirling hybrids and
>plugins will be common.
>
If gasoline energy becomes much more expensive than NG/coal/nuke
electricity - per mile - I suspect all-electric plugins will become
common very quickly thereafter.
That's where we're headed.
--Vic
Rod Speed
Nope, we'll be using natural gas well before that.
Plenty of ours do that already, particularly taxis that almost all do that now.
Lou
"TKM" <non...@no.net> wrote in message
news:WClBj.297039$MJ6.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
(snipped)
> Discussions about payback don't make any sense to me. No car has a
payback.
The payback discussion makes sense in the following way -
You can buy a Honda Civic that is not a hybrid, or you can buy a Honda Civic
that is a hybrid. The hybrid version costs more to buy than the non hybrid
version, but gets better mileage and so uses less gas. The non hybrid
version costs less to buy than the hybrid version, but uses more gas.
So it becomes a question of do you want jam today or jam sometime in the
future. How long will it take for the total cost of owning and operating
the hybrid version to be less than the total cost of owning and operating
the non hybrid version. That period is the payback period, the amount of
time it takes before you begin to realize a return on the money invested in
the hybrid version that's over and above what it would have cost to buy the
non hybrid version.
That period is going to be different for every car and for every driver, but
overall there will be some average figure. Right now it looks to be
somewhere around six years. If the price of gas continues to climb, that
time will get shorter. If the current price of gas is at least partly a
"bubble" phenomenon (like the late housing bubble or the stock bubble before
that) then once the bubble bursts, that time will get longer.
Lou
"barbie gee" <barbi...@NOSESPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.08...@sghcrg.sghcrg.pbz...
I know this stuff gets pushed a lot in the ads - you see them on TV all the
time. But do most people really buy this stuff? I never have - when/if a
dealer says a car will cost x dollars more because of one of these features,
my reply is always take it off (I don't need/want fancy rims), take it out
(I don't really care if there's a radio at all, let alone a 6 disc changer
and etc.), or show me a different car (moon roofs reduce head clearance).
On the other hand, I will admit I've paid extra for a convertible once or
twice in my life.
But somehow, I don't see the hybrid thing quite the same way. The
manufacturers have devoted substantial effort toward making driving a hybrid
the same as driving any other car, and they seem to have been pretty
successful. I've test driven the Prius and hybrid Civic, and the hybrid
feature seems to make less difference to the driving experience than turning
the radio off or on. The less tangible the difference, the more likely it
becomes to ask if the difference in price is worth it.
The heater thing surprises me - in most cars, the heater just directs waste
heat to the passenger compartment, heat that would otherwise be dumped to
the outside air via the radiator and tailpipe. I can see that it could make
a difference in stop and go driving, because the engine might be running to
supply heat at times when it would otherwise be off, but on the highway when
it's running anyway? Could it be that you're using the heat on cold days
(duh) and cars generally get poorer mileage when it's cold than they do when
it's warm?
The driving tricks (coasting to a red light, etc.) work with all cars, not
just hybrids.
barbie gee
On Tue, 11 Mar 2008, Lou wrote:
> The heater thing surprises me - in most cars, the heater just directs waste
> heat to the passenger compartment, heat that would otherwise be dumped to
> the outside air via the radiator and tailpipe. I can see that it could make
> a difference in stop and go driving, because the engine might be running to
> supply heat at times when it would otherwise be off, but on the highway when
> it's running anyway? Could it be that you're using the heat on cold days
> (duh) and cars generally get poorer mileage when it's cold than they do when
> it's warm?
>
> The driving tricks (coasting to a red light, etc.) work with all cars, not
> just hybrids.
the Prius uses and stores heat for itself first. It is biased towards
warming the engine, not the human, because a warm engine runs optimally..
Or at least that's the way I understand it. there's even some kind of
thermos in the engine compartment that stores heat (must be the
antifreeze?).
Oddly, most people here refuse to use any of the driving tricks. I see
the standards; jack rabbit starts, speeding to a stoplight and jamming on
the brakes, underinflated tires to the point of almost being flat, and so
on.
Today; Gasoline at my local station; $3.599/gallon.
I found one place w/ $3.489/Gal. and bought enough to get me to work for
the rest of the week, and then out of town, where I'll be paying at least
20 cents less per gallon... (taxes drive our gasoline prices up in this
county)
Jeff
Tesla claims 0.215 kW搬/mi.
at 10 cents a kWHr that's just 2.15 cents/mile. That's 139 miles on
$3.00. Other electrics are in the same range. 0.17 to 0.37 (Wikipedia).
I think we have another 5 to 10 years before batteries get there in
price, the motors and control circuits are already here.
EVs can be wickedly fast. Teslas do sub 4 sec 0-60 mph. Man, that's
screaming! Apparently there are electric dragsters running 8 second
quarter miles. The Tesla BTW, runs on a whole lot of notebook LiIons.
George Clooney's Tango apparently is just as fast as the Tesla and
can run on about 20 - 25 lead acid batteries for about 75 miles (about
double with NiMh) range compared to the Teslas 200+ on LiIon. I'm
guessing he's got the better batteries!
Jeff
> --Vic
P.O.W.
Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
why not put a solar panel on the roof / hood?
they make flexible panels now. or plug into a solar panel at home or at
work. Now that would be a great "employee of the month" bonus.
a carport with an array . Hey, I might get a job.
Jeff
There's just not enough electricity per square foot. The solar cars that
run the solar races are pretty exotic creatures designed to have very
low drag and low weight.
> they make flexible panels now. or plug into a solar panel at home or at
> work.
The flexible panels will get less watts per SF than the polycrystaline
very expensive panels used on the solar cars.
Now, if you have a lot of south facing space on your home roof, that's a
different story. There's a new generation of more affordable solar
coming with printed technology like what Nanosolar is doing. They are
currently selling panels for under $1/watt for wholesale (power plant)
use. You can buy other technologies now for $5/watt (just for the
panels). It's not really *there* yet for us. Wait a few years and you'll
be rewarded by much lower costs.
Remember what happened with computer memory. It drifted higher until
the price collapsed. Don't expect as big a collapse for solar, but I
think in a few years we'll see half the cost we do now.
For now, it's enough of a challenge running either solar PV to a home
or running a plugin electric, to consider combining the two!
You may very well see the the PV breakthroughs go large scale before
the plugin cars. Some countries, notable Germany, have intensive solar
programs.
Wait until later this year and you should see more of everything. The
Tesla will be shipping and we'll see where NanoSolar is going.
Jeff
Jeff
> "TKM" <non...@no.net> wrote in message
> news:WClBj.297039$MJ6.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> (snipped)
>> Discussions about payback don't make any sense to me. No car has a
> payback.
>
> The payback discussion makes sense in the following way -
>
> You can buy a Honda Civic that is not a hybrid, or you can buy a Honda Civic
> that is a hybrid. The hybrid version costs more to buy than the non hybrid
> version, but gets better mileage and so uses less gas. The non hybrid
> version costs less to buy than the hybrid version, but uses more gas.
>
> So it becomes a question of do you want jam today or jam sometime in the
> future. How long will it take for the total cost of owning and operating
> the hybrid version to be less than the total cost of owning and operating
> the non hybrid version. That period is the payback period, the amount of
> time it takes before you begin to realize a return on the money invested in
> the hybrid version that's over and above what it would have cost to buy the
> non hybrid version.
>
> That period is going to be different for every car and for every driver, but
> overall there will be some average figure. Right now it looks to be
> somewhere around six years.
For similar cars like Civic to Civic Hybrid the payback times look
much longer, more like 12 years:
Of course driving more and higher gas cost reduce that. Some of the
delivery services are going hybrid because of the high daily mileage and
the nature of the driving is ideally suited to hybrids.
As someone else pointed out, there is no payback in owning a car! It's
all payout.
Jeff
John Weiss
>
> I will have get some wheels soon, and my net worth is effectively zero upon
> re-patriation (all my net worth is back with my wife and kid overseas). I
> am wondering if I should get something used (pre-owned) for maybe up to
> $5000 or try to get credit on a new vehicle, gas or hybrid...now I am no
> longer convinced the hybrid will pay off for me if I go new.
If cost is the major consideration, a used Kia or Hyundai at <$10K will be your
best bet. Low initial cost, long warranty, and good gas mileage are all there.
After a couple years and you have built up your net worth again, look for
another [better] car.
A hybrid will not likely "pay off" in strict terms of dollar cost of ownership,
but the more fuel efficient your car is, the more "socially responsible" you
will be.
Dennis
wrote:
>In article <47d6bb36$0$17339$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
>Not quite. Perhaps you are right for a flat road. Gravity helps for a
>road that slopes downward when a Prius is being driven down the road.
But the gas engine was used (directly or indirecty by charging the
battery) to get up that hill in the first place. There ain't no free
lunch.
Or your drive to and from work downhill both ways? ;-)
Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally
Dennis
<jrweiss98...@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote:
>A hybrid will not likely "pay off" in strict terms of dollar cost of ownership,
>but the more fuel efficient your car is, the more "socially responsible" you
>will be.
>
Personally, I get all the "socially responsible" brownie points I need
by not flying around the country in a private jet. ;-)
TKM
"Lou" <lpogoda...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:AJqdnWdJor5ngkra...@comcast.com...
I would call that kind of payback a payback of the additional investment.
Fine, but there's little chance the total price of the car would somehow be
paid back. Hertz, Avis et al do it, of course; but not individual
non-business owners.
TKM
Sharon
> On Mar 10, 12:49=A0pm, James <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Do you save anything on long trips? =A0I understand the savings is in
>> city stop & go traffic and not on the highway crusing at 65.
>
> That's my understanding about the hybrids as well. And since the
> majority of my driving is "highway"; it doesn't make sense. However,
> it'd be fine with rush hour gridlock, right?
Again, this is just my experience, so YMMV. I've found that I get
GREAT mileage even at highway speeds. If I can set the cruise control and not
brake alot for idiots on the highway, I can get 50+mpg even at 70mph.
And of course in stop-and-creep traffic like you get in traffic jams,
then I get practically 100mpg because that's running only on the battery.
My worst mileage is actually in city. I've found that when I have to
stop at a red light, then accelerate to say 35-40mph before stopping for the
next frickin light, my mileage drops to about 35mpg. The reason is that
acceleration takes energy, in a Prius just like any other car. If I could
gently and slowly accelerate I'd get better mileage, but who wants to drive
like a gramma? Also, nobody behind me wants to be stuck behind a gramma. So
you still have to keep up with traffic, and the accelerate/decelerate patterns
in city driving suck big time.
- Sharon
"Gravity... is a harsh mistress!"
Nicik Name
"WaterBoy" <wate...@financier.com> wrote in message
news:a857104f-b35f-4837...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> .
> i bicycle..as i always have
> saves gas, and saves on medical bills [exercise]
>
> i'm semi-retired though, which probably isn't average;
> my only money endeavors are now on the WWW
>
> it disturbs me some to have a 2003 car in the garage
> with 16,000 miles on it!
Thats rough on a car to have it just set.
>
> waterboy
Nicik Name
"James" <j006...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e6c5c8ce-93fa-410f...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> I'm starting to fill up to avoid higher prices later. Used to get
> just half a tank in case prices drop.
I use the company car..........
My car sets in the driveway 5 days a week......
Anthony Matonak
> On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:15:53 -0700, "John Weiss"
>
>> but the more fuel efficient your car is, the more "socially responsible" you
>> will be.
>
> Personally, I get all the "socially responsible" brownie points I need
> by not flying around the country in a private jet. ;-)
I don't travel much so I have to get my "socially responsible" brownie
points by not flying prostitutes around the country in private jets. :)
Anthony
--
Remember to support your local industry!
Vic Smith
You too?
--Vic
y_p_w
Sharon wrote:
> So for me at least, there was no price premium on the Prius, but my
> fuel savings are very clear. Oh, and repair track records over the 8 years
> that Prius has been in the U.S. is equable to any other car. Yes, the hybrid
> battery is expensive to replace, but it lasts the life of the car except for
> occasional isolated problems.
Maybe around $4000. I've seen a few used ones (pulled from totaled
cars) on eBay for under $1000. I'd expect that in the future we'll
see reconditioned packs that might be useful for extracting a few
years of use. There might also be aftermarket versions or just cells
that are installed in the battery module.
At least in California (where the battery is considered an emissions
control device) the warranty is 10 years or 150,000 miles.
The battery will likely last a long time given the way the charging
system keeps it away from being fully charged or fully depleted. I
wonder about the plug-in hybrid proponents. That'll require a larger
battery and likely need to tap into the limits of battery capacity.
I'd expect that kind of use would require battery changes every two to
three years.