5 Myths About Sick Old Europe
Joe
rich.
Read about it at http://Muvy.org
Rod Speed
> They're better than the USA ... at least for anyone who's not filthy rich.
Have fun explaining now come so many of those who arent filthy rich are moving to the US whenever they can.
Blash
> They're better than the USA ... at least for anyone who's not filthy
> rich.
AHA!!! That explains why nobody is trying to get in the U.S.
The border patrol is to stop people from leaving.......
Vlad the accountant
> Joe <useful_in...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > They're better than the USA ... at least for anyone who's not filthy rich.
>
> Have fun explaining now come so many of those who arent filthy rich are moving to the US whenever they can.
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
you didnt actually read it did you?
clams casino
Better yet - Why would anyone read the muvy.org spam that's frequently
cross posted onto numerous newsgroups?
In actuality, all muvy.org spam should be forwarded with an abuse
complaint to the originating ISP- typically ab...@verizon.net.
Mike
The border patrol is keeping EUROPEANS out???
Blash
wrote on 10/7/07 12:37 PM:
Read it again S L O W L Y ! ! !
Rod Speed
>>> They're better than the USA ... at least for anyone who's not filthy rich.
>> Have fun explaining now come so many of those who
>> arent filthy rich are moving to the US whenever they can.
>>> Read about it athttp://Muvy.org
> you didnt actually read it did you?
Corse I did. Not relevant to HIS claim that I chose to comment on tho.
Spehro Pefhany
Based on foreigners coming as a percentage of population, Syria is 20
times as attractive than the US. Must be all the freedom.
Blash
Please send us a postcard......
Jorge W. Arbusto
"Mike" <prab...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:feb1vf$hr7$1...@news04.infoave.net...
Illegal Europeans are coming HERE? SONOFABITCH!!! Now we're going to have to
build a fence along the Atlantic seaboard.
Don S
them all, any day.
Rod Speed
Or it might just be a hell of a lot easier for those who move there to get in there.
Don S
No its the terrorist from Iran moving in to try to take over the country.
Rod Speed
Yep. Much easier for most of those in adjacent countrys
to get into Syria than for anyone to get into the US.
> its the terrorist from Iran moving in to try to take over the country.
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
Don S
when they can't come up with a logical argument for or against something
even when it is said in jest.
Blash
> Isn't it remarkable how the adolescent mind always uses the "F" word
> when they can't come up with a logical argument for or against something
> even when it is said in jest.
Give credit where it's due......atta boy mikey!!!
PaPaPeng
Actually the ground has already shifted:
Struggling Chadians Dream Of a Better Life -- in China
By Stephanie McCrummen
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, October 6, 2007; Page A17
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100502484.html
ABECHE, Chad -- It was midmorning in one of the poorest countries on
earth, and the daily traffic of battered trucks, motorcycles and
donkeys bounced along the lumpy sand streets of this hot desert town.
Behind the white archways of the old colonial market, Abdulkarim
Mahamat, 24, was selling soap and batteries to the few customers who
dropped by. Things were rather slow, and the young man explained how
he often imagines himself elsewhere -- flying off to a promising new
land of cheap socks and smoothly paved roads.
As resource-hungry China cultivates Chad, people there increasingly
see the Asian nation as a land of opportunity. Said shopkeeper
Abdulkarim Mahamat: "If I can go to China . . . I'll make a lot of
money, and life will change.
"If I can go to China, life will be better than it is now," he said,
adding that he has started saving up for his ticket. "I'll make a lot
of money, and life will change. I can return to school, build a nice
house and have a family. People say that China is a good place and
everything is cheap."
As resource-hungry China cultivates relationships with countries
across Africa -- most recently here, for oil -- African leaders are
debating the merits of that growing influence. Skeptics are troubled,
for instance, by China's role in enabling governments such as Sudan's,
which is accused of carrying out a brutal campaign of violence in its
western Darfur region.
But as that debate goes on, something less tangible is happening on
the ground, even in this remote, conflict-ridden region where
electricity and plumbing are still luxuries:
The idea of China as a symbol of potential prosperity is taking hold,
seeping into the consciousness of ordinary Africans and occupying a
place that the United States, and to some extent European countries,
once claimed.
Around here, the American dream is something quaint and unrealistic,
while a new kind of Chinese dream, more pragmatic and attainable,
seems ascendant.
"The United States is a nice place to visit," said Ahmet Mohamet Ali,
a trader who had just returned from his first trip to China. "China is
a place to do business."
(.....more)
And in case someone misses the point no one (African) is thinking of
emigrating to China. They all are coming around to believe that China
is the means to their own properity in their home country. This is a
very powerful idea.
Rod Speed
Nothing remarkable whatever about that pathetically hoary old line of yours.
345ddd
> On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 09:16:27 -0400, Blash <bla...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Joe wrote on 10/7/07 5:26 AM:
>>
>>> They're better than the USA ... at least for anyone who's not filthy
>>> rich.
>>
>> AHA!!! That explains why nobody is trying to get in the U.S.
>> The border patrol is to stop people from leaving.......
> Actually the ground has already shifted:
Nope, give those the choice of china or the US, three guesses which most of them would choose ?
They only consider china because the US wont let them in.
And even you havent headed off for china permanently either. Funny that.
PaPaPeng
>
>Nope, give those the choice of china or the US, three guesses which most of them would choose ?
>
>They only consider china because the US wont let them in.
>
>And even you havent headed off for china permanently either. Funny that.
>
A copy of my post in another newsgroup.
In case anyone misses the significance none of the Africans, nor the
Arabs and other peoples of the developing world is thinking of
emigrating to China or adopting Chinese culture, political systems or
the equivalent of any of the "American Way" that the US uses to foist
her imperialsm onto hapless countries. These Africans and their
fellow poor of the world see China as the solution that they as
individuals can by their efforts alleviate their own poverty. And
their efforts will enable their families, their peoples and their
countries to enjoy the right of every human being to a better life.
This is a very very powerful idea. I am so proud China is the source
of their empowerment - "a new kind of Chinese dream, more pragmatic
and attainable, "
---------
If I may add some notes here the Chinese participation in Third World
development is in providing for and even building their infrastructure
- the roads, the railways, the power stations and electricity grids,
the dams and the water works. Yes there will be kleptocratic regimes
that will siphon off much money. But is that so different from what
had been happening with western aid for the last six decades? What
is different is that real benefits in completed and functional
infrastructure will be in the ground. With that the general
population can begin to create their own wealth and to improve their
lives. China also provides a reliable and significant market for
their exports. And all this will be done without messing on how they
govern themselves and resolve their internal disputes.
These articles provide an insight into what is happening to China and
her place in the world. This is where the real fight for the hearts
and minds of the world is.
1. Does Communism Work After All?
By Andreas Lorenz and Wieland Wagner
February 27, 2007
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,465007,00.html
China is securing an ever-bigger share of the world market with the
methods of a planned economy. Competitors and economists alike are
astounded by the country's seemingly unstoppable march to becoming a
global economic superpower. The development has left many wondering:
Does communism work after all?
2. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17438997/site/newsweek/
The Sky Isn't Falling in China
The day after the Shanghai stock market fell, we saw again all the
same warnings about the Chinese system and the odds of its collapse.
By Fareed Zakaria
Newsweek
March 12, 2007 issue - For some years economists and analysts have
been wondering what it would take to scare financial markets. Wars,
coups, soaring commodity prices, increased energy costs, unwinding
housing markets-nothing seemed to do it. Last week we got one answer:
China. The sharp plunge in the Shanghai stock market caused jitters
around the world. But while the reaction pointed to the increased
importance of China in global economics, it also highlighted the
confusion and misunderstanding that surround the Middle Kingdom.
3. http://fpc.org.uk/fsblob/244.pdf (original published thesis).
The Beijing Consensus
Alex Steffen
May 26, 2005 10:01 PM
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives//002795.html
China's future is one of the big worldchanging wildcards, and so, not
suprisingly, we've talked a lot about it.
We've also written our share of posts about the Brasilia Consensus,
the new model of development which emphasizes collaborative
technologies, fair trade and South-South collaboration.
So I'm not quite sure how we let the buzz-phrase the Beijing Consensus
slip by us unnoticed, but we did. The phrase is Joshua Cooper Ramo's,
coined to describe what he believes is yet a third model challenging
the Washington Consensus as the blueprint for building the future.
Ramo's paper, The Beijing Consensus is well worth the read:
To measure Chinese power based on the tired rules of how many aircraft
carriers she has or on per-capita GDP leads to devastating
mis-measurement. ... To the degree China's development is changing
China it is important; but what is far more important is that China's
new ideas are having a gigantic effect outside of China. China is
marking a path for other nations around the world who are trying to
figure out not simply how to develop their countries, but also how to
fit into the international order in a way that allows them to be truly
independent, to protect their way of life and political choices in a
world with a single massively powerful centre of gravity. I call this
new physics of power and development the Beijing Consensus.
The center of the Beijing Consensus, Ramo argues, is constant,
massive, sustained innovation:
"Innovation sustains the progress of a nation," Jiang observed. ...
China's problems are so massive that only exponential improvements in
health care, economics and governance can hold China together. This is
the old, deadly conundrum of reform: how do you introduce solutions
into a society that is shredding itself with hope and growth. The only
solution is innovation... In China, Moore's law isn't seen as a threat
but as a salvation. The conventional wisdom is that Chinese growth is
an example of what happens when you let loose lots of cheap labour. In
fact, innovation-led productivity growth has sustained the Chinese
economy and helped to offset disastrous internal imbalances.
I've excerpted a couple other choice bits below, but I encourage you
to download the paper for yourself. He may or may not be right, but
Ramo will tweak your thinking about China.
Quotes:
When Intel first began operating in China in the early 1990s, it did
so with the belief that the China market would be a perfect place to
unload out-of-date chips. But the Chinese only wanted Intel's newest,
fastest technology. ...
[T]he single thing that is most characteristic of China at this moment
is simply that it is changing so fast that it is almost impossible to
keep track of what is underway. ...
Since opening and reform in 1979, the World Bank estimates China has
lifted 300 million people out of poverty, a historical accomplishment.
What is the Beijing Consensus? It is simply three theorems about how
to organise the place of a developing country in the world, along with
a couple of axioms about why the physics is attracting students in
places like New Delhi and Brasilia. The first theorem repositions the
value of innovation. Rather than the "old-physics" argument that
developing countries must start development with trailing-edge
technology (copper wires), it insists that on the necessity of
bleeding-edge innovation (fiber optic) to create change that moves
faster than the problems change creates. In physics terms, it is about
using innovation to reduce the friction losses of reform.
The second Beijing Consensus theorem is that since chaos is impossible
to control from the top... you need a whole set of new tools. It looks
beyond measures like per-capita GDP and focuses instead of
quality-of-life, the only way to manage the massive contradictions of
Chinese development. This second theorem demands a development model
where sustainability and equality become first considerations, not
luxuries. Because Chinese society is an unstable stew of hope,
ambition, fear, misinformation and politics only this kind of
chaos-theory can provide meaningful organization. China's new approach
to development stresses chaos management. This is one reason why
academic disciplines like sociology and crisis management are the
vogue of party think tanks at the moment.
Finally, the Beijing Consensus contains a theory of
self-determination, one that stresses using leverage to move big,
hegemonic powers that may be tempted to tread on your toes. ...
Intel's Andy Grove has described a not-too distant future where China
will have more software programmers working than anyplace on earth,
and suggested the result of such a cluster will not only be
competitive Chinese dominance but also masses of new innovation
This Beijing Consensus model of innovation-led growth, which has been
echoed to some extent by India's economic awakening, turns old-style
development ideas upside down. It suggests that creating high-growth
economic hubs is more important than building sequentially from
fundamentals. It is better, in this worldview, to wire some of the
country with fiber-optics instead of patiently waiting to wire
everything with copper first. An innovative society... allows for a
climate in which experimentation and failure are acceptable. This
leads to a productive dynamism that allows crucial economic sectors to
morph, change and survive the shocks of development. ...
Without a change to a more sustainable growth model, China's economy
is likely to sputter out, choked off by a shortage of resources and
hampered by corruption and pollution. "If our growth mode is not
changed," Ma Kai said this spring, "our growth cannot be sustained."
This new view is apparent in the way Chinese thinkers are starting to
measure growth. Tsinghua economist Hu Angang, among others, now
disdainfully labels GDP growth, the sine qua non of Washington
Consensus physics, "black GDP growth." He takes China's impressive
black GDP numbers and subtracts off the terrific costs of
environmental destruction to measure "green GDP growth". Then Hu nets
out China's corruption costs to measure "clean GDP." This, he says, is
how China should measure progress. "It doesn't matter if the cat is
black or white," Deng Xiaoing famously observed in one of his early
speeches on economic reform. "All that matters is that it catches
mice." But Hu's GDP tools, which I've heard leaders all over the
country begin to talk about, reflects the government's new belief: the
color of the cat doesmatter. The goal now is to find a cat that is
green, a cat that is transparent.
Rod Speed
> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 06:46:37 +1000, "345ddd" <e...@sam.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Nope, give those the choice of china or the US, three guesses which
>> most of them would choose ?
>>
>> They only consider china because the US wont let them in.
>>
>> And even you havent headed off for china permanently either. Funny
>> that.
>>
>
>
> A copy of my post in another newsgroup.
>
> In case anyone misses the significance none of the Africans, nor the Arabs
> and other peoples of the developing world is thinking of emigrating to China
Pity about this bit in your original,
>>> As resource-hungry China cultivates Chad, people there increasingly
>>> see the Asian nation as a land of opportunity. Said shopkeeper
>>> Abdulkarim Mahamat: "If I can go to China . . . I'll make a lot of
>>> money, and life will change.
>>> "If I can go to China, life will be better than it is now," he said,
>>> adding that he has started saving up for his ticket. "I'll make a lot
>>> of money, and life will change. I can return to school, build a nice
>>> house and have a family. People say that China is a good place and
>>> everything is cheap."
> or adopting Chinese culture, political systems or the
> equivalent of any of the "American Way" that the US
> uses to foist her imperialsm onto hapless countries.
How odd that so many of those would move to the US if the US would let them.
> These Africans and their fellow poor of the world see China as the
> solution that they as individuals can by their efforts alleviate their own
> poverty. And their efforts will enable their families, their peoples and
> their countries to enjoy the right of every human being to a better life.
Nothing like the mindless silly stuff in the original article you quoted.
> This is a very very powerful idea. I am so proud China
> is the source of their empowerment - "a new kind of
> Chinese dream, more pragmatic and attainable, "
How odd that so many of those would move to the US if the US would let them.
<reams of your mindless spruiking for china flushed where it belongs>
If its so great, why dont you return there permanently yourself ?
William Souden
Mike
You, apparently, need to "[r]ead it again S L O W L Y ! ! !" The
original post was about Europeans and how they actually are better off
than Americans. YOU then started talking about the border patrol (who
basically cover the border between us and Mexico/Canada.) There IS no
"border" between us and Europe and thus the border patrol doesn't stop
THEM from entering and your "AHA!!! That explains why nobody is trying
to get in the U.S." made no sense as a response to the "[Europeans are]
Lawyerkill
> Blash wrote:
> > in article feb1vf$hr...@news04.infoave.net, Mike at prabb...@shamrocksgf.com
<--Shaking head
Blash
wrote on 10/10/07 12:08 PM:
Are all those who feel the overwhelming need to cross-post mentally
challenged???
Mike
Noting how you xposted your response in this thread before I replied to
you, then I would say "yes, apparently, you are mentally challenged if
anyone is."
I also note how you couldn't respond to either of my posts other than to
make an ad-hom attack.
Blash
misc.invest.stocks,
alt.military,
talk.atheism,
misc.consumers.
frugal-living,
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
> I also note how you couldn't respond to either of my posts other than to
> make an ad-hom attack.
Try posting to ONE N/G where you MAY be on topic....
Then, maybe you'll find someone who may care about your whining......
If you're just looking for sympathetic responses, call Dr. Phil.......
Mike
I notice you're the one doing the whining and you're replying to the
posts in all these groups (same as I did.)