how to make fluros more friendly?
Linda
things we've read decided to go with ones that take 11w compact fluros.
It's all installed, and now looks great - until you turn the lights on and
then the whole room looks cold and washed out. The fittings take 3 of the
lights at once (kind of like spots) and it's still relatively dim in the
room - which means we really couldn't go any lower wattage like the 7watt
that is available but we're really disappointed in the appearance. We
bought the bulbs from a light shop so in theory they are good quality, and
were quite expensive, and they said you could get ones that were kind of
blue tinted, or more natural - which these were in theory, but I can't
imagine putting up with this lighting for 5 or more years while they
continue to improve the technologies.
Are there any tricks like painting the bulbs or anything like that to help
filter out the harsh tones? (Don't laugh at me!!)
Don Klipstein
I would go to Home Depot or a lighting or electrical/lighting supply
shop and get some same wattage ones of 2700K color temperature. Possibly
go up slightly in wattage also.
Your symptoms sound like you have a higher color temperature, closer to
daylight. I find achieving a more daylight-like overall color to be
hyped, and tending to give a "dreary gray" appearance from home lighting
at typical living room lighting levels.
Now, for the common color temperatures, what they mean, and how they
usually do in various applications:
2700 K: This is the usual CFL color, and is an incandescent approximation
often but not always a hair more orangish. Higher wattage CFLs and
magnetically-ballasted ones often look a hair more pinkish than
incandescent. Spirals of this color and wattage 19 watts or less usually
have a good incandescent-like color. If they are in small enclosed
fixtures or in downlights, they can heat up and get a slight color shift
to less orangish and more blue-greenish-whitish, though I find them
generally rataining a pleasant color.
In my experience, minor color mismatches are more objectionable when you
have a mixture of different lights so that you can see the color
differences.
3000 K: This appears to me to now be the "standard incandescentlike warm
color" of Sylvania, the main brand at Lowes. My experience is that
Sylvania 3000K is not a color matching halogen (also nominlly 3000 K), but
slightly less yellowish and more pinkish. I find that to make these
appear more harsh in appearance, but I do find the color rendering
properties to be good.
3500 K: This is a "whiter warm white". I find it pleasant, though it can
appear a bit stark or dreary-gray at lower to moderate lighting levels. I
find it very pleasant at higher lighting levels, such as lighting levels
typical of kitchens and bathrooms.
4100 K: This is a "neutral white" color, same color as "cool white"
fluorescents but with improved color rendering properties. It can
somewhat easily give a "dreary gray" appearance. I would use it where
illumination levels will be high, such as in desk lamps.
5000 K: This is a less common one, and the color is an icy cold pure
white - about the same as midday tropical sunlight with clean clear air or
midday subtropical sunlight in late spring or early summer with clean
clear air. It sometimes appears very slightly bluish. However, I find it
to easily appear stark and prone to causing a "dreary-gray effect" in home
lighting.
5500 K: This is a very slightly more-blue-still icy cold white. It is
the "Daylight" option of the N:Vision brand, at Home Depot.
6500 K: This is a bluish white "Daylight" color. I see this as a color
option of some GE spirals at Target and some Sylvania spirals at Lowes. I
do find it hard for this color to be attractive rather than stark or
causing "dreary gray effect" unless illumination level gets to a good
couple thousand footcandles (20,000-plus lux) or so, maybe close to the
intensity of direct sunlight.
One thing I do find higher color temperatures to be good for: Nighttime
outdoor illumination, and low level (like nightlight) illumination of
large areas. Higher color temperature means more of wavelengths favorable
to night vision.
But for most home illumination, I would use 2700 to 3500 Kelvin color
temperature.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Linda
"Linda" <re...@email.com> wrote in message
news:47772445$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
shop today.
Don Klipstein
> CFL actually do produce less light than indicated on their labels,
>primarily, because the people who label them tend to stretch the truth.
I only sometimes find this to be true. I usually do not find this to be
true of GE, Sylvania, Philips or N:Vision, though non-optimum temperature
will dim these.
Daylight models tend to have slightly lower output in lumens than warmer
color ones of same wattage, but are usually rated with the same
"incandescent equivalent wattage".
In my experience, Lights of America and Maxlite have produced less light
than claimed. (However, I have bought only one Lights of America one
since 2002.) And in my experience, all dollar store stool specimens that
have light output claims fell short.
CFLs do fade a little when they age.
>Also, fluorescents are perceived as less "bright" than they are rated to
>be because they are "off" as much as they are "on".
Ever look at one with a photodiode (with a resistor and battery)
connected to an oscilloscope? Do you know the "lighting technology
geek" method f rolling your eyes while looking at one? Also, rated light
output is average and not peak.
> Now that engineers have raised the oscillating frequency of CFLs'
>power supplies high enough that the flickering and its accompanying
>noise is above most human beings' perception, many people can use them
>who found previous generations of fluorescent lamps intolerable.
>However, you've just struck another of the major objections to any
>fluorescent light source: Terrible color rendition.
> An object's perceived color is determined by the color of the light
>that it's reflecting in combination with the observer's memory of what
>color that object "should" be. Most of us have learned, through a
>lifetime of exposure, to accept and compensate for the color distortion
>produced by incandescents. However, fluorescents of any kind emit light
>in significantly more narrow spectra than incandescents and the color
>distortion is vastly more perceptible to many people. Because there are
>no labelling standards or generally accepted definitions, what is called
>"soft white" ranges from urine-yellow to gangrenous green, with the
>accompanying color distortion.
Usually "soft white" and "warm white" are 2700 K with a color rendering
index of 82.
> Unlike incandescents, neither the real nor the equivalent power
>rating of a CFL has any effect on its color; color is determined by the
>coating on the device's inner surface. You might try returning the ones
>you have and exchanging them for another brand because the light balance
>does vary across brands. You might also consider moving up in quality to
>a brand that actually indicates its color temperature on its label. Be
>aware of the inverse relationship between color temperature and color
>perception: Higher temperatures are perceived as "colder" (more blue) by
>human beings while lower temperatures are perceived as "warmer" (more
>yellow-orange-red). For most of the "day", daylight is blue; we perceive
>it as white because we're constructed that way.
> If you want to ensure (reasonably) "true" color rendition, you will
>have to buy a quality lamp with a high color temperature, labelled in
>degrees, Kelvin (°K).
> For example, "Nvision" (sold at Home Depot) offers a product
>(mis)labelled "daylight" that has a color temp of 5500 °K, noticeably
>chartreuse, but its resultant color distortion is far less marked than
>that of so-called "soft white" CFLS.
I have one. I find it a very slightly greenish-bluish white, a hair
more yellowish than typical overcast sky, and a hair more green-bluish
than the whitest shades of direct sunlight that I have experienced.
> GE's "energy smart" line (sold at Lowes) offers a product labelled
>"cool natural light" and properly called "daylight" with a color temp of
>6500°K, the color of the notorious "North light" daylight on a clear day
>between about 10:00AM-3:00PM, depending on latitude. After a great deal
>of comparison (I literally purchased samples of every product offered in
>every supermarket in Long Island South, FL, as well as at both Home
>Desperate and Lowe's and used them in my home for as long as I could
>bear them -- for some that was a matter of minutes), this product is my
>personal choice: Although, from outside looking in, it doesn't produce
>that "warm, welcoming, homey glow", it does render colors accurately and
>reading (for example) is, once again, a pleasure -- just like sitting by
>an open window.
> I paid $8.98 each for the 26W (100 watt-equivalent, 1600 lumens)
>and $6.98 each for the 15W (60 watt-equivalent, 900 lumens) units in
>June, 2007. They are "warranted" for five years, for whatever that may
>be worth, based on four hours' (continuous) use per day. Bear in mind
>that "short cycling", seriously reduces the life span of any lamp and
>so, at those prices, "economy" may not be among the benefits.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>... Do you know the "lighting technology geek" method f rolling your eyes
>while looking at one?
No. How does that work?
Nick
Don Klipstein
wrote:
>Don Klipstein <d...@manx.misty.com> wrote:
>
>>... Do you know the "lighting technology geek" method of rolling your
>
>No. How does that work?
I don't know how many people actually do or know that one, but I have
heard enough to know that I am not the only one in the world.
I look at a lamp, then roll my eyes up and down, and I see the streak
traced in my vision by the lamp (sometimes even a bit of an afterimage of
this). I see the stroboscopic pattern (or lack thereof).
LED holiday lights generally go completely out between half-cycles.
Most have halfwave rectification and are off more than half the time.
Some incandescent dusk-to-dawn nightlights have diodes to dim them. I
see the 60 Hz variation in filament brightness and color in those.
"55V" HPS lamps go close to completyely out between half cycles. Higher
voltage higher wattage ones sometimes have enough thermal mass in their
vapor to keep glowing somewhat between half cycles. Metal halide lamps
usually also do, and higher wattage ones often have their stroboscopic
effect fairly mitigated by this. HPS and MH lamps can also have color
vary through the AC cycle - more bluish at the peaks and more orangish
away from peaks.
Cool white fluoros on magnetic ballasts show plenty of persistence in
the yellow-glowing component of their phosphor. Some other fluorescents
have phosphor persistence so short as to go completely out between
half-cycles - I think mainly some high color rendering index types. CFLs
usually show enough phosphor persistence, especially in a green-glowing
component, to have their stroboscopic effect mitigated a little to
somewhat. And I can tell magnetic-ballasted from electronic-ballasted
ones this way, since the electronic-ballasted ones have light output
fairly steady through the AC cycle.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
larry
> In <fl9b0p$2...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu>, nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
> wrote:
>
>>Don Klipstein <d...@manx.misty.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>... Do you know the "lighting technology geek" method of rolling your
>>>eyes while looking at one?
>>
>>No. How does that work?
>
>
> I don't know how many people actually do or know that one, but I have
> heard enough to know that I am not the only one in the world.
>
> I look at a lamp, then roll my eyes up and down, and I see the streak
> traced in my vision by the lamp (sometimes even a bit of an afterimage of
> this). I see the stroboscopic pattern (or lack thereof).
>
> LED holiday lights generally go completely out between half-cycles.
> Most have halfwave rectification and are off more than half the time.
>
> Some incandescent dusk-to-dawn nightlights have diodes to dim them. I
> see the 60 Hz variation in filament brightness and color in those.
It's easier to move the lamp, or at least bump it ... or
your chin ;-)
As a kid, I would put an NE-2(aka A1A) at the end of a thin
cable and swing it in a circle.
-larry / dallas
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>>>... Do you know the "lighting technology geek" method of rolling your
>>> eyes while looking at one?
>>
>>No. How does that work?
>
> I don't know how many people actually do or know that one, but I have
>heard enough to know that I am not the only one in the world.
>
> I look at a lamp, then roll my eyes up and down, and I see the streak
>traced in my vision by the lamp (sometimes even a bit of an afterimage of
>this). I see the stroboscopic pattern (or lack thereof).
>
> LED holiday lights generally go completely out between half-cycles.
>Most have halfwave rectification and are off more than half the time...
So far, I can't see what you see. The Society of Building Science Educators
tool kit has a (Sylvania?) slotted cardboard disk with a fingerhole to see
whether fluorescent tubes had magnetic or electronic ballasts...
Nick