Motivating high-school students to join college
m...@mailinator.com
My nephew and his friend are living with me since a few weeks, till
their parents return from an overseas trip, and both are teenagers who
will be completing high school next year (May 08).
Unfortunately, during the few weeks they stayed with me, I did not
monitor them closely and the two boys have talked to people in my
neighborhood, places where they were working part-time and got some
ideas about not going to a college immediately after high-school is
more profitable in the long run.
The problem started as they talked to people in my neighborhood and
were working in retail stores (like Target and JCPenney) as their
parents had allowed them to work part-time during their stay with
them. Somehow, the two boys have got the idea that it is far more
lucrative to continue working full time after completing high-school,
get a few years experience in a specific field, start their own
business and become wealthy relatively faster as compared to someone
who gets a college degree. They told me that they were going to
discuss this matter with their parents. Obviously, their parents will
dissuade them like me, but I don't want the parents to think I
misguided the boys while they were with me. I am 26 years old, a
recent graduate (having a B.S. + M.S in Computer Science), working for
the state govt. and my gross salary is 32K and net is 25K in
Tallahassee, FL. Both the teenagers were partly discouraged looking
at my salary after a 6 year college degree. I explained to them as I
liked to contribute my talents to the govt. sector where there is
relatively less hustle, politics and need of producing short term
gains as compared to corporate sector and hence took up a job with the
State govt.
In my area people who work for stores like Target, JC Penney people
with high school diploma and 2-3 years of experience start with
50K(gross), people having their own business(credit union, bank, gas
station, grocery store, real estate agent, landlord, hotel, restaurant
owners, automobile stores, automobile parts and the varied number of
shops we all see on the roads) are well in 300K - 500K in their middle
twenties(24-27) and some more experienced folks are 1M(one million) or
more. I was slightly skeptical, but the boys were told(by the folks
who gave them this information) it is accurate as people in the
corporate sector or having their own business typically earn lot more
than people in the govt. sector or else most of them wouldn't be
working there for the private sector or running their own business,
which I could not deny.
They were advised to start their own business and prosper rather than
get a college degree and aid the State (or corporate sector) in
generating revenue like me. They were informed in today's age of
obtaining degrees on the Web, distance education classes practically
anyone can get a degree when they truly require it (in 1-2 years or
so) which so many Web only campuses provide. They were told going to
college and spending 3-4 years while you can get it in 2 years when
you actually require it seems a bit odd.
One of my neighbor who just has an A.S. in Computer Science works as a
contractor. He teaches classes to new employees of state in fields
like Java,PL/SQL etc. and earns about 160K gross and 120K net. He gets
about 5K income per week he teaches a class and sometimes about 7K. He
is employed about 30-35 weeks per year out of the 52 weeks in a year.
His net is 120K as he gets enormous tax breaks of running a business
not to mention the funds he receives under the table(which seems
unethical and how he does that is a mystery to me) which are tax free.
His wife works for a State agency getting benefits(health/life
insurance/investment) for the family. The husband is 24 and wife is
22(no college degree). Their household income is about 135K and only
one member in their household has a 2 year college degree. He told the
boys they could follow his path, as state agencies have some funds
allocated for training and if one has good contacts with key people in
the state agencies, their employment odds are high as the state
agencies will hire them every year for teaching the same subject. If
things don't work out, one can nearly always find a secure job with
local, state or federal government, but at first one should take
risks, if he wants to retire decently, buy a car, home, put his
children through college and other myriad expenses incurred in raising
a family.
Another person in my area is an immigrant from another part of world.
He immigrated at 55 to U.S. with no funds and aided by his relatives
started a motel and became a millionaire at 65. I could not explain to
the boys how someone with no college degree, comes to our country at
55 and becomes so prosperous in 10 years. Agreed, most businesses
which pan out like his did are in that range, but I could not find a
valid reason that so many people having college degrees and working
for govt. or private sector are having financial issues in their
fifties, but such business owners are remarkably flourishing. The
immigrant secured loans from banks as his relatives were a collateral
for him. His relatives also taught him the tricks of motel
business(hike up the price during weekends, when there is a big
function in City, getting tax breaks, dealings under the table by cash
only deals etc.) His relatives were like that person except that they
came while they were between the age group of 30-35. I realize people
who have their own businesses are normally well off as compared to
someone who work for private or govt. sector.
Another immigrant living a few blocks from me is from India. He came
through a
visa program similar to this one explained at this link
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/25/AR2007062502016.html?hpid=topnews
The link states how someone was running a company by bringing people
to our country and gaining his commission from the companies that
require such people. That immigrant (person X) came through the same
means. He has a Bachelor's in Computer Engineering and he came on some
work visa (H1-B). He worked for companies like Goldman Sachs, Ernst
and Young and many other financial firms and 40% of his salary was
withheld by the person who brought him as part of the deal for
bringing him to the country. He after gaining permanent residency
applied the same method. He would bring someone from India/China
stating he wants to employ person 'A', thus applying for person A's H1-
B visa. Person 'A' would work for a company like Goldman Sachs who
would be billed for 80$/hr. Person A would obtain only 30$/hr with no
benefits as 50$ will be his employer's (person X) charges. Thus,
person X obtained a profit of about 25$/hr from one person A (after
deducting business expenses of 25$/hr from the 80$/hour rate he was
billing Goldman Sachs) or about 50K per person. He brought in 10 such
people from India/China every year and is now a multi-millionaire at
32. He just has to advertise his employees properly and ensure there
are projects for them all the year round just like any other
consulting company. The H1-B visa was implemented to enable foreign
workers who are actually skilled to be hired in U.S. rather than
bringing someone who will pay a percentage of his wages to his
employer and without any benefits. I explained to the boys it was like
some admission official in a top college allowing unworthy students to
get admitted(who actually did not deserve and did not meet the
standards of the college) just because the students were allowing to
grease the palms of the admission official. This keeps the truly
talented students out of the college (and deprives them of their
chances of growth) as well as degrades the quality of the college as a
campus is judged by its students. Granted, he is impacting the U.S.
company in a negative way, but that person was just worried about
filling his pocket. The boys assured me they will not indulge in any
such dishonest tactics (taking advantage of loopholes in immigration
law) which would be detrimental to our country's economy in the short
and long run.
Another family in my neighborhood runs an internet site like
http://www.mymoneyblog.com/ and generates revenue of about 300K per
year from the advertisements on their site. The boys were attracted to
this venture also as that household folks learned computers 4 years
ago.
Another person who worked for a while(3-4 years) at a bank after high-
school, started his own credit union and became a multi-millionaire at
32. Another man became a millionaire after working for an expensive
restaurant and then starting his own restaurant at 33. As the boys
were working at the retail stores like Target and JC Penney, looking
at the crowd which was purchasing expensive items daily, they thought
that most people in our area are quite well off. Unfortunately, as I
am in low income and hardly ever go to such malls, the boys concluded
looking at me, starting your own business one can become far more
financially independent compared to going to college and then working
for someone. I attempted to explain that few people who shop in such
malls go on unwanted spending (resulting in unnecessary debt) which is
not a proper practice, but could not refute the fact that our country
has the maximum billionaires or in other words people in our country
are quite well off and hence can afford such spending.
They talked to my landlord who owns about 100 apartments and hardly
knows anything about house repair. On a repair call from a tenant, he
sends his repair crew, still manages to pocket 1.5M after his expenses
or taxes. That person is just 25, but he had the advantage that his
grandfather purchased the property and paid the mortgage long ago, so
this person just has to collect rent from people like me and lead a
leisurely life. I wanted to explain to the boys that, though my
landlord(without clearing middle school) has a seven figure salary
working 10hours/week, instances like him are little rare. But, the
boys were not fully convinced by my explanation as there are too many
people in the real estate industry who are in the seven figure income
in my area and possibly 8-9 figures in places like urban California
and New York City. The boys thought despite of me having a six year
degree I was not so well off financially, but people like my landlord
were heavily prospering. I recognize it is tenants like me who
contribute to my landlord's wealth at my expense.
A fellow who has a construction business, earns about 500K per year at
26 without a college degree. He had to gain some licenses, but 500K
seemed quite attractive to the youngsters at 26, though I believe such
cases are uncommon.
Couple of other folks who have pawn shops, gas stations, grocery
stores, automobile shops, retail stores gave the boys same idea of
working somewhere and then starting their own business to become a
millionaire while in their twenties. All the people told the boys,
starting your own business and on the first few years doing as much
cash only transactions will aid them in evading lot of taxes and after
then keeping two registers for transactions like one for
IRS(evidently, which will be fabricated) and one which shows the
actual dealings. Seraching the web viewing links such as
http://www.careerprospects.org/Trends/salary-sixfigure.html,
discussions in stock/investment newsgroups as well as e-bay newsgroups
made the youngsters believe 6 figure salaries is indeed very common in
our country and if so many people with a high school diploma are
obtaining it, it should be possible for them if they act wisely after
high school. Apparently, they were informed that most people in the
sports, media(TV/movie/radio industry) are well beyond the 6 figure
salary. I understand few sports coach salaries are in seven figures,
some movie/TV/radio stars and many others are well in the six figures,
not all, but it tough convincing the young folks of risks (success
rate of actors) present in such fields.
Some have suggested the boys to gain some experience in credit card
industry which is booming. The boys were informed Visa/Mastercard earn
about 25% of each transaction as their transaction fees and removing
the business expenses they earn a profit of about 10% per transaction.
Organizations which provide Bill pay service to new banks earn
interest by just moving funds around from the payer to payee, and
earning funds in the interim period. As I don't have much knowledge
about such services I could not refute statements stated by people who
work in banking industry. That was one other area the boys were
suggested to go into.
The teenagers read a couple of books on the library which gave them
some 101 top business ideas, but I clarified if the ideas actually
worked, the author could be earning a mint himself before he published
the book.
http://www.google.com/services/local-business-referrals/repfaq.html
http://www.selladsense.com/
are few of the links where people can earn some funds which the boys
were suggested to look into. I don't know how much of these programs
work so could not advise the boys but told them to be careful.
Another reason the teenagers had a bleak picture after college was the
heavy outsourcing. Many fields are being outsourced and it is hard to
obtain positions for college graduates. A typical fresh IT graduate
would demand about 25-30K or more depending on the area, whereas
someone in India/China with 7 years of experience would be willing to
work for half of that salary. I told the boys, that is a fact in most
aspects of life and we have to somehow adjust to it.
I stated examples of how people with a college degree working for the
State could start with 100K or more in my area (Tallahasee, FL) after
graduation as explained below. I gave them an example of a
hypothetical high school student who finishes high school at 17-18.
And, today virtually all high school students take AP(Advanced
Placement) classes while in high school itself which enables them to
start as a sophomore(2nd year student in college) instead of a
freshman(1st year student in college). There, they can save a year so
they can get their bachelor's in 3 years instead of 4 years. Taking
all the summer and winter classes their campus may offer (and today
most colleges have winter or summer classes) they complete the
workload of 3 years in 2 years. So, by the time they are 19 or 20 they
have finished their Bachelor's. Then, with a year of experience of
research at 20 or 21 about the Bachelor's thesis work they can go for
Ph.D and finish in about 4 years which is 24 or 25. Then, they can
start as a tenure track faculty or Assistant Professor. Where I live
there is a university FSU(http://www.fsu.edu) where such faculties
start with 80K for nine months. For three months of summer they get
additional 27K. So, their yearly salary is 80+27 = 107K. Assuming a
household in which both members (husband and wife) do this, the
household income of such a family is 107*2 = 214K at the age group of
24-25 and that too working for the State Govt. (as FSU is a state
university) and not suspectible to outsourcing, market factors as much
as corporate sector, though the summer supplement may not be available
if the economy is in a recession. This example is accurate if one has
the doctrate in engineering fields, management, nursing, law etc. For
other fields, I don't know the starting salary at FSU.
Most lawyers, optometrists, nuclear, chemical, petroleum engineer, MBA
graduates from top 15 B-schools start with 100K or quite close after
graduation in the area where I live. I encouraged the boys to be like
the professionals I stated. I recognize the final choice can be made
only by the parents and children, but I wanted them to get a college
education which would help them understand things better in life and
work place.
Granted, like most aspects in life the higher the risk, more is the
reward. And, starting one's own business brings its own rewards which
is the reason most people commence their own business or continue
their family business and indeed prosper. But, I feel the boys could
approach that issue after a Bachelor's degree and that time is not
wasted if they actually learn something in a college.
Finally, I did not intend to disparage anyone (immigrant examples),
FSU faculty salaries might be little low or high(I got the number from
a friend) or the numerous examples( commission charged by Visa/
Mastercard, people in different fields). I understand different people
have different talents and they pursue them. A person having athletic
or acting ability can be a sportstar or in the media industry and it
is completely fine, but I did not want the boys to choose a path
solely based on the financial rewards. The salaries of people like my
landlord, people in my neighbourhood, restaurant owners etc. were
obtained from the folks themselves by the teenagers(so might be a
little high/low) and may have a slight variance depending on the
market.
I realize the issue I am facing is not new and people in this group
who are far more knowledgeable can guide me in encouraging the
teenagers to pursue college. I would appreciate any advice.
Thanks a lot.
Logan Shaw
> My nephew and his friend are living with me since a few weeks, till
> their parents return from an overseas trip, and both are teenagers who
> will be completing high school next year (May 08).
>
> Unfortunately, during the few weeks they stayed with me, I did not
> monitor them closely and the two boys have talked to people in my
> neighborhood, places where they were working part-time and got some
> ideas about not going to a college immediately after high-school is
> more profitable in the long run.
>
> The problem started as they talked to people in my neighborhood and
> were working in retail stores (like Target and JCPenney) as their
> parents had allowed them to work part-time during their stay with
> them. Somehow, the two boys have got the idea that it is far more
> lucrative to continue working full time after completing high-school,
> get a few years experience in a specific field, start their own
> business and become wealthy relatively faster as compared to someone
> who gets a college degree. They told me that they were going to
> discuss this matter with their parents. Obviously, their parents will
> dissuade them like me, but I don't want the parents to think I
> misguided the boys while they were with me.
Tell them the truth: that college doesn't guarantee anything. But
also tell them the rest of the truth: neither does anything else.
Just because you think you can start a business doesn't mean you
will succeed. Success takes hard work, period. Yes, it's totally
possible to achieve success without a college degree. But it's
somewhat easier to do it with a degree. You only need statistics to
make that clear. Look at this government report which breaks down
earnings and other things as a function of educational attainment:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf
According to figure 3, the average high school graduate makes $1.2
million over the course of their life. But the average college
graduate makes $2.1 million. So I guess if you want to immediately
put yourself at a disadvantage statistically, you should skip college.
It might not hurt to also point out that college is for many people
the most fun they have in their entire life. It's where you will
meet some of the most interesting people you'll ever meet in your
life. I can't figure out why someone would want to skip that.
- Logan
Rod Speed
Thats not necessarily a particularly useful statistic tho because
those numbers are biased against the dregs of the labor market
that dont even consider the alternatives and couldnt manage
college and so arent the situation those two kids are in.
> It might not hurt to also point out that college is for many people
> the most fun they have in their entire life. It's where you will meet some of the most
> interesting people you'll ever meet in your life.
Plenty find that is true in spades of their work.
> I can't figure out why someone would want to skip that.
There's plenty that dont find that appeals to them.
Logan Shaw
> Logan Shaw <lshaw-...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf
>>
>> According to figure 3, the average high school graduate makes $1.2
>> million over the course of their life. But the average college
>> graduate makes $2.1 million. So I guess if you want to immediately
>> put yourself at a disadvantage statistically, you should skip college.
> Thats not necessarily a particularly useful statistic tho because
> those numbers are biased against the dregs of the labor market
> that dont even consider the alternatives and couldnt manage
> college and so arent the situation those two kids are in.
That point of view makes some sense. I'm sure there are some effects
that work in that direction, i.e. some people go to college because
they are smart, and some people do not go to college because they are
not prepared for it enough to succeed there (never learned algebra in
high school, that kind of thing). And there are also probably some
other related effects: young people whose parents take an active role
in their life and try to help them succeed are more likely to encourage
them to go to college.
But personally I think that while those things are true, a college
degree is, on average, genuinely beneficial to your career. I
personally dropped out of college, then worked for 6 or 7 years,
then went back and finished college, then started working again.
On several occasions during job interviews, potential employers have
made positive comments about my going back to finish college. They
seemed impressed that I was interested in finishing even though I
had an established career without it. That is one of the main
benefits of college: people look at your college degree and think,
"There's someone who has followed through with at least one major
thing in their life." Another major benefit is that you can look
at yourself and when you are facing a challenging situation, you
can say, "This is not as hard as college, and I finished college;
therefore, I can finish this." And of course another benefit is
that you actually learn things. In my particular case as a computer
programmer, I actually learned things that are directly relevant
to my job.
>> It might not hurt to also point out that college is for many people
>> the most fun they have in their entire life.
> Plenty find that is true in spades of their work.
Sure, it can happen there too. But college is a great opportunity
to do that and really get to know a wide variety of people from
all over the world.
>> I can't figure out why someone would want to skip that.
> There's plenty that dont find that appeals to them.
I was like that the first time around. I went to college initially
only because it was expected of me. Predictably, I did not do well.
Later when I chose to do it because *I* wanted to, I did much, much
better. So it would probably be good to stress the point that it
often doesn't do much good to force someone to go to college.
- Logan
Anthony Matonak
....
> But personally I think that while those things are true, a college
My point of view is that it's the same reason you encourage and help
your kids learn CPR, wilderness survival, self defense and how to
use guns. It's better to have the skills and education and not need
it than to need it and not have it.
Anthony
Rod Speed
>>> http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf
>>> According to figure 3, the average high school graduate makes $1.2
>>> million over the course of their life. But the average college graduate makes $2.1 million. So
>>> I guess if you want to immediately put yourself at a disadvantage statistically, you should skip
>>> college.
>> Thats not necessarily a particularly useful statistic tho because
>> those numbers are biased against the dregs of the labor market
>> that dont even consider the alternatives and couldnt manage
>> college and so arent the situation those two kids are in.
> That point of view makes some sense. I'm sure there are some effects that work in that direction,
> i.e. some people go to college because they are smart, and some people do not go to college
> because they are not prepared for it enough to succeed there (never learned algebra in high
> school, that kind of thing).
Yeah, that's what I meant. Said it a bit too cryptically.
> And there are also probably some other related effects: young people whose parents take an active
> role in their life and try to help them succeed are more likely to encourage them to go to
> college.
And the other very important effect, the best of the kids will
inevitably end up in college a lot more than the dregs and its
hardly surprising that they end up with a better result jobs wise too.
> But personally I think that while those things are true, a college
> degree is, on average, genuinely beneficial to your career.
Really depends on the field you are interested in.
Its certainly true that with some fields you dont even get considered
without post secondary qualifications and without a degree etc.
Most obviously with medicine, the law, engineering etc.
There isnt much evidence that it helps any with small business tho.
> I personally dropped out of college, then worked for 6 or 7 years,
> then went back and finished college, then started working again.
I went the more traditional route, college immediately after school,
both a first degree and a higher degree with just vacation jobs etc.
> On several occasions during job interviews, potential employers have made positive comments about
> my going back to finish college. They seemed impressed that I was interested in finishing even
> though I had an established career without it. That is one of the main benefits of college:
> people look at your college degree and think, "There's someone who has followed through with at
> least one major thing in their life."
Thats also another area that varys with the job tho. Many small
business employers dont really value that sort of thing much and
plenty decide that those with degrees are too academic for
them and they prefer those with trade qualifications instead.
> Another major benefit is that you can look at yourself and when you are facing a challenging
> situation, you can say, "This is not as hard as college, and I finished college; therefore, I can
> finish this."
Dunno, most dont find college that hard. Its really just a
matter of putting the effort in rather than being that hard.
> And of course another benefit is that you actually learn things. In my particular case as a
> computer programmer, I actually learned things that are directly relevant to my job.
I got my degrees in the hard sciences and never used much
of that at all in a work situation. My research degree involved
computing extensively and I decided that it had a hell of a lot more
future than the hard sciences did employment and interest wise.
So I dont actually have any formal qualifications in computing,
essentially because in my era there werent any available.
Thats pretty common with many graduates in the
hard sciences in my era, which is well before yours.
I later got involved in teaching computing and very few of those who
did that had any formal qualifications in computing at that time. There
werent any degrees in computing until I got involved in teaching those.
>>> It might not hurt to also point out that college is for many people the most fun they have in
>>> their entire life.
>> Plenty find that is true in spades of their work.
> Sure, it can happen there too. But college is a great opportunity to do that and really get to
> know a wide variety of people from all over the world.
I saw a lot more of that in a work situation than in college.
>>> I can't figure out why someone would want to skip that.
>> There's plenty that dont find that appeals to them.
> I was like that the first time around. I went to college initially only because it was expected
> of me. Predictably, I did not do well.
> Later when I chose to do it because *I* wanted to, I did much, much
> better. So it would probably be good to stress the point that it
> often doesn't do much good to force someone to go to college.
Yeah, that's my main reservation with those two kids being discussed
in the original post, it might well be hard to sell them on college now
and it might well be a lot better to let them try what they want to do
and do the college later if they later decide it would be useful for them.
Rod Speed
Its different to the school stuff tho because they can do the college later.
It isnt feasible to do that with basic literacy etc.
Bill
subject areas you like/dislike. And doing a bit of growing up!
If nothing else, I would suggest they take a few business related classes.
Perhaps management, accounting. Then a few classes related to whatever
business field they were thinking of going into.
Best to find out now what they like and don't like. Maybe they love
management, accounting, etc. Maybe they will hate it or find it boring.
What are their hobbies? Is this the field they want to go into?
Keep in mind they will be spending a great portion of their lives at work. I
feel it is better to select a career which one likes or finds fun rather
than a career which makes a lot of money.
So what do they like to do in their spare time? Maybe work on cars? Maybe
they would be more happy being an auto mechanic?
Work outdoors? Maybe something outdoor related would be best?
I'll tell you what... I wish I did this before I decided on my major in
college... Tell them to think about what they would like to do for a career.
Then find someone who does that job. Ask if they can spend a day with that
person at work. See what that person does all day long. They may love it or
may find it boring!
Somewhere out there is a person doing a job which they would truly enjoy
spending 8 hours a day doing. Their job is to find that person/career. If it
is a low paying job, that is OK. Many people would be more than happy to let
a kid tag along for the day. Teach them a bit of "reality", etc.
m...@privacy.net
>I got my degrees in the hard sciences and never used much
>of that at all in a work situation.
what was your hard science degree in Rod?
William Souden
Rod never used much of anything in work situations as his adult work
history totals less than 4 hours,
clams casino
Rod Speed
Rod Speed
> One thing college is good for is "finding yourself" - finding out what subject areas you
> like/dislike. And doing a bit of growing up!
True in spades of work.
> If nothing else, I would suggest they take a few business related
> classes. Perhaps management, accounting. Then a few classes related to whatever business field
> they were thinking of going into.
> Best to find out now what they like and don't like. Maybe they love
> management, accounting, etc. Maybe they will hate it or find it boring.
> What are their hobbies? Is this the field they want to go into?
> Keep in mind they will be spending a great portion of their lives at work. I feel it is better to
> select a career which one likes or finds fun rather than a career which makes a lot of money.
True, and the ultimate is to be paid very well for
doing what you would be happy to do for free.
> So what do they like to do in their spare time? Maybe work on cars?
> Maybe they would be more happy being an auto mechanic?
> Work outdoors? Maybe something outdoor related would be best?
> I'll tell you what... I wish I did this before I decided on my major
> in college... Tell them to think about what they would like to do for
> a career. Then find someone who does that job. Ask if they can spend
> a day with that person at work. See what that person does all day
> long. They may love it or may find it boring!
Trouble is that it takes a lot more than a day to work out the downsides
with some jobs, particularly the mindless bureaucracy that so many jobs
involve. Those sorts of 'work experience' situations never really expose
the kids to that sort of real downside with the job.
Thats true in spades with the professions etc. You're never
going to be able to get a clear idea about what life for a GP
or criminal lawyer or civil engineer is like that way.
Most of the current practitioners cant really spell out the downsides either.
> Somewhere out there is a person doing a job which they would truly enjoy spending 8 hours a day
> doing.
And plenty that would prefer to spend most of their time doing that too.
> Their job is to find that person/career. If it is a low paying job, that is OK. Many people would
> be more than happy to let a kid tag along for the day. Teach them a bit of "reality", etc.
Not really that feasible with the professions tho. Even
'interns' dont really get much of an idea about the basics.
m...@privacy.net
>> what was your hard science degree in Rod?
>
>Physical chemistry.
undergrad only?
or did you get a masters or higher?
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> what was your hard science degree in Rod?
>> Physical chemistry.
> undergrad only?
Nope.
> or did you get a masters or higher?
Yep, same field.
Rod Speed
>>> Physical chemistry.
>> undergrad only?
> Nope.
> Yep, same field.
And a research degree too, not just coursework.
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply
take a year or two and try it, and then if they find it's not working
out, *then* they can go to college (and they will undoubtedly appreciate
it more, be more motivated to go, and do better).
Way back in the dark ages when I was young (and my oldest child just
turned 24), I heard someone say that they thought it would be a good
idea to enforce having all high school graduates go out and work in the
real world for a year before starting college, because that perspective
would be invaluable at knowing what they will be up against when they
finish college and will motivate them to finish.
m...@mailinator.com wrote:
>
> I realize the issue I am facing is not new and people in this group
> who are far more knowledgeable can guide me in encouraging the
> teenagers to pursue college. I would appreciate any advice.
--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.
Don K
news:1186967959.3...@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> ...in Tallahassee, FL...
>
> In my area people who work for stores like Target, JC Penney people
> with high school diploma and 2-3 years of experience start with
> 50K(gross),
That's pretty good money for an area with a median family income of $30.5K.
I wonder why more families don't just take one of those $50K starter jobs over
at Target.
Don
Anthony Matonak
...
> Way back in the dark ages when I was young (and my oldest child just
> turned 24), I heard someone say that they thought it would be a good
> idea to enforce having all high school graduates go out and work in the
> real world for a year before starting college, because that perspective
> would be invaluable at knowing what they will be up against when they
> finish college and will motivate them to finish.
I've heard something very similar in regards to mandatory military
service.
Anthony
Shawn Hirn
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply <mme...@TRASHsonic.net>
wrote:
> I would suggest to them that if that is really what they want to do,
> take a year or two and try it, and then if they find it's not working
> out, *then* they can go to college (and they will undoubtedly appreciate
> it more, be more motivated to go, and do better).
>
> Way back in the dark ages when I was young (and my oldest child just
> turned 24), I heard someone say that they thought it would be a good
> idea to enforce having all high school graduates go out and work in the
> real world for a year before starting college, because that perspective
> would be invaluable at knowing what they will be up against when they
> finish college and will motivate them to finish.
What makes you think most college students haven't worked in the real
world by the time they got to college. I worked at least one part time
job per semester when I was in college to help pay the bills. Some
semesters, I worked more than one part time job.
I work for a large urban university now and from what I am told, 90% of
our student body works at least 20 hours a week while attending classes.
There is simply no way for a poor or middle class student to go to
college and pay bills without working at least part time. When I
attended graduate school, I worked full time and went to school. My life
was working, eating, sleeping, and school for the three years it took to
attend classes and pass my graduate qualifying exam (first shot).
The only people I have ever met who never worked before going to college
were a few people who were gifted either in being smart enough to earn a
full scholarship and/or had wealthy parents.
Shawn Hirn
"Bill" <bill19...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> One thing college is good for is "finding yourself" - finding out what
> subject areas you like/dislike. And doing a bit of growing up!
>
> If nothing else, I would suggest they take a few business related classes.
> Perhaps management, accounting. Then a few classes related to whatever
> business field they were thinking of going into.
>
> Best to find out now what they like and don't like. Maybe they love
> management, accounting, etc. Maybe they will hate it or find it boring.
>
> What are their hobbies? Is this the field they want to go into?
>
> Keep in mind they will be spending a great portion of their lives at work. I
> feel it is better to select a career which one likes or finds fun rather
> than a career which makes a lot of money.
I agree. I am well into my career and I am confronted with that same
choice right now. I am actively being recruited by a very large company
to move far from home for a very good job that would pay me a lot more
than I earn at the university where I work. My sister is weighing odds
that I will turn down that job simply because I have things now in my
life that matter to me that are far more important than money, which I
would give up if I took a job out of town, not to mention that I already
make a comfortable living.
Making a good living is important, but being happy ranks much higher, in
my opinion. The day I dread going to work is the day I start looking
seriously for a new job.
Shawn Hirn
Anthony Matonak <antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
When I was in high school, my dad used to tell me that an education is
the most important thing one can ever earn. Your car can be stolen, your
wife can cheat on you, the feds can take your house away from you, but
no one can ever take your education away from you.
m...@mailinator.com
> <m...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1186967959.3...@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > ...in Tallahassee, FL...
>
> > In my area people who work for stores like Target, JC Penney people
> > 50K(gross),
>
> That's pretty good money for an area with a median family income of $30.5K.
>
> I wonder why more families don't just take one of those $50K starter jobs over
> at Target.
>
> Don
Thanks to all who have replied. I will follow the strategies outlined.
The boys have a average GPA of 3.7,3.6 and SAT of 1430,1450 which is
reasonable for medium colleges. I will encourage them to sit in some
business classes to pique their interest in college.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/snapshots/PL1270600.html
states the median family income to be 57K. Also, the statistics were
polled by boys as they worked at Target and presumably talked to
actual people there. Median takes into factor lots of people like me
who are on lower income(32K/year), some even below so is not that
accurate in my opinion. Overall, I have noticed people have large
houses and fancy cars.
57K is not that high when we account the number of millionaires and
billionaires in our country. If my landlord can earn a lot (due to his
grandfather), immigrants I mentioned, few of my neighbours and several
other people 57K hardly surprises me.
Thanks to all for your time and aid.
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply
>
> What makes you think most college students haven't worked in the real
> world by the time they got to college. I worked at least one part time
> job per semester when I was in college to help pay the bills. Some
> semesters, I worked more than one part time job.
Well, in the first place, it wasn't me who originally said that high
school graduates should have a year of being in the regular work force
before attending college, and in the second place, going to work to help
pay your school bill still puts you in academia, and working full-time
in a regular kind of job gives you a perspective of practical
application of what you will learn in college.
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply
>
> Making a good living is important, but being happy ranks much higher, in
> my opinion.
That's what my dad always used to tell us. He said he was blessed that
the only career he ever wanted paid well, but he knew lots of other guys
doing the same job as he was who were rich and miserable, and he said it
just wasn't worth it.
m...@mailinator.com
> On Aug 13, 9:08 pm, "Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > <m...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1186967959.3...@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > ...in Tallahassee, FL...
>
> > > In my area people who work for stores like Target, JC Penney people
> > > withhighschooldiploma and 2-3 years of experience start with
> > > 50K(gross),
>
> > That's pretty good money for an area with a median family income of $30.5K.
>
> > I wonder why more families don't just take one of those $50K starter jobs over
> > at Target.
>
> > Don
>
> Thanks to all who have replied. I will follow the strategies outlined.
> The boys have a average GPA of 3.7,3.6 and SAT of 1430,1450 which is
> reasonable for medium colleges. I will encourage them to sit in some
> business classes to pique their interest in college.
>
> states the median family income to be 57K. Also, the statistics were
> polled by boys as they worked at Target and presumably talked to
> actual people there. Median takes into factor lots of people like me
> who are on lower income(32K/year), some even below so is not that
> accurate in my opinion. Overall, I have noticed people have large
> houses and fancy cars.
>
> billionaires in our country. If my landlord can earn a lot (due to his
> grandfather), immigrants I mentioned, few of my neighbours and several
> other people 57K hardly surprises me.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Apologies, the average median income in this area is 52K for 2006
according to the Money maagzine, not 57K as I mentioned earlier. It
was careless for me.
Thanks
dfr
Mental problems can tho. Thats essentially what Altzhiemers does.
Rod Speed
> On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 18:19:19 -0700, m...@mailinator.com wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, during the few weeks they stayed with me, I did not
>> monitor them closely and the two boys have talked to people in my
>> neighborhood, places where they were working part-time and got some
>> ideas about not going to a college immediately after high-school is
>> more profitable in the long run.
> After reading your very long list of people who made it without a
> college degree my conclusion is let these boys find out what the real
> world is like first hand. Right now they are full of enthusiasm,
> hopes, dreams and ambitions. They are young and have the energy.
> Let them learn first hand early. Youth has the privilege of making big
> mistakes and be able to recover quickly and fully. No college degree
> can ever provide that. Ten years trying is as realistic a period to
> work the devils out of one's system and still be youthful enough to do
> something one will stick to for the rest of one's life.
Trouble with that approach is that its a lot harder to get a college
education with a wife and kids in tow than it is before you have those.
> As one grows older and acquires more responsibilities it will get
> harder and harder to break out of mediocrity and a life of what ifs.
Yes, and that is true of 10 years out of school too.
Few dont have any responsibilities after that time.
> If they succeed in the non traditional world they will
> go much further than any college education can.
That isnt necessarily as true of the professions.
> The only condition their parents should insist on is
> that they do well, do their very best, in their high school
> grades. If they don't succeed than do the exams again.
No real evidence that the sort of employment they appear to
be interested in currently values that stuff more than experience.
> Thus armed and in case they don't make it in the business
> world they can always go back to school and get a degree.
They appear to have good enough grades for that already.
> By then their commitment to a traditional education
> route to a better life will be even stronger.
Thats very arguable with the traditional liberal arts type degree.
Don K
news:1187111129....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 14, 10:22 am, m...@mailinator.com wrote:
>> On Aug 13, 9:08 pm, "Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote:
>> > <m...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >news:1186967959.3...@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > > ...in Tallahassee, FL...
>>
>> > > In my area people who work for stores like Target, JC Penney people
>> > > withhighschooldiploma and 2-3 years of experience start with
>> > > 50K(gross),
>>
>> > That's pretty good money for an area with a median family income of $30.5K.
>>
>> > I wonder why more families don't just take one of those $50K starter jobs over
>> > at Target.
>>
>> > Don
>>
>
> Apologies, the average median income in this area is 52K for 2006
> according to the Money maagzine, not 57K as I mentioned earlier. It
> was careless for me.
> Thanks
According to other sites, the median householder income is
$30.8K for ages 25-34, which is what the kids were talking about.
Apparently a householder is anyone who lives in a house. I mistakenly
referred to family income, which is the total income of family members.
Anyway, my point was that the $50K starting job at Target claimed by
the kids, doesn't sound very credible.
http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/incomeOverview.php?locIndex=8951
Don
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> PaPaPeng <PaPa...@yahoo.com> wrote
>>> m...@mailinator.com wrote
>>> After reading your very long list of people who made it without a
>>>> college degree my conclusion is let these boys find out what the
>>> real world is like first hand. Right now they are full of enthusiasm,
>>> hopes, dreams and ambitions. They are young and have the energy.
>>> Let them learn first hand early. Youth has the privilege of making big
>>> mistakes and be able to recover quickly and fully. No college degree
>>> can ever provide that. Ten years trying is as realistic a period to
>>> work the devils out of one's system and still be youthful enough
>>> to do something one will stick to for the rest of one's life.
>> Trouble with that approach is that its a lot harder to get a college
>> education with a wife and kids in tow than it is before you have those.
> Graduation at 18 plus ten years is still only 28.
Sure, but most have some kids by then.
> With the demands on making it by oneself there
> won't be any time for womanizing a wife and kids.
Plenty manage that fine.
> If he is imrudent enough to saddle himslef with a startup business
> as well as a wife and home making this early he ain't smart at all.
Yeah, its certainly true that many do avoid the kids until later than
that, but thats got real downsides too, particularly with female fertility.
> Might as well find out early. He and the wife are still young enough
> (below 30 yrs) to start afresh. She remarries and he's off the
> alimony millstone. After 30 she's a permanant problem in his life.
Its more likely they just avoid kids until after 30 instead.
> I still think those brothers should go for it.
Yeah, I do too, I was just pointing out the downsides of leaving
college that long. I'd make that decision rather sooner than 10 years.
>>> As one grows older and acquires more responsibilities it will get
>>> harder and harder to break out of mediocrity and a life of what ifs.
>> Yes, and that is true of 10 years out of school too.
>> Few dont have any responsibilities after that time.
> This is where a good high school diploma is an
> essential fall back position. The options are there.
They appear to have quite adequate high
school grades so that wouldnt be a problem.
> To have to redo high school to get college admission is a
> two year campaign, something very very tough to do at 30.
Sure, I just meant that it doesnt look like that they would need to do that.
He did say that a bit loosely tho, so its possible he didnt mean that so clearly.
Daniel T.
has generated.
Like everything else in life, one has to weigh the cost against the
benefit. I have seen plenty of posts about the possible benefits of
college (including "it might be fun!") but not one peep about its
cost. The fact is, college costs big time, in both money and time.
Going to college immediately after high-school will, as likely as not,
put the kid into a field that he learns later he simply doesn't want
to do, thus wasting his time and possibly his and/or his parents
money.
What about those supposed benefits? Fun can be had either in or out of
a dorm. A motivated learner doesn't need a classroom to learn and if
the kid isn't a motivate learner, then even college isn't going to
help him. The only benefit a four+ year stint at college gets you is a
piece of paper you can waive around. In some fields, that is an
absolute requirement, in some others it makes the interview process
easer, in the rest it matters not a whit.
What you seem to be talking about are a couple of kids that have no
clue what they want to do with their lives beyond making a bundle of
cash. IMHO, if that's their only motivation, they are going to fail at
whatever they attempt.
All very much IMHO of course...
Daniel T.
> When I was in high school, my dad used to tell me that an education is
> the most important thing one can ever earn.
You don't need to buy an education though. You can get one without
stepping foot on a college campus.
Logan Shaw
You can, and you can also go to college and get a degree without getting
much of an education.
However, college is generally a marvelous opportunity to learn things.
There are all these other people around you, and a high proportion of
them (compared to the general population) want to learn things, plus
there are a bunch of grad students and professors you can ask about
things if you are really curious. So for that reason, I like it.
- Logan
Rod Speed
> Daniel T. wrote:
>> Shawn Hirn <sr...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> When I was in high school, my dad used to tell me that an education
>>> is the most important thing one can ever earn.
>
>> You don't need to buy an education though. You can get one without
>> stepping foot on a college campus.
>
> You can, and you can also go to college and get a degree without
> getting much of an education.
>
> However, college is generally a marvelous opportunity to learn things.
Only for some, its a hopelessly inefficient way of learning things for anyone with a clue.
The ONLY real advantage of college is that it provides a formal piece
of paper that has a reputation that is useful when applying for jobs.
> There are all these other people around you, and a high proportion of
> them (compared to the general population) want to learn things, plus
> there are a bunch of grad students and professors you can ask about
> things if you are really curious. So for that reason, I like it.
I've always felt that its dinosaur stuff, a primitive way of learning things.
Usene...@the-domain-in.sig
sr...@comcast.net says...
On the other hand, there is plenty of education available from
the School Of Hard Knocks.
And some of it is actually much, much more valuable than what
lots of drones, I mean people, seem to have learned in
classrooms.
--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum
Shawn Hirn
Usene...@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG <Usene...@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG> wrote:
>
> On the other hand, there is plenty of education available from
> the School Of Hard Knocks.
>
> And some of it is actually much, much more valuable than what
> lots of drones, I mean people, seem to have learned in
> classrooms.
I completely agree, but the reality is that a college education provides
a much greater likelihood (not guarantee) of financial success than only
a high school education.
Shawn Hirn
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply <mme...@TRASHsonic.net>
wrote:
> Shawn Hirn wrote:
> >
> > Making a good living is important, but being happy ranks much higher, in
> > my opinion.
>
> That's what my dad always used to tell us. He said he was blessed that
> the only career he ever wanted paid well, but he knew lots of other guys
> doing the same job as he was who were rich and miserable, and he said it
> just wasn't worth it.
Yup. My dad had a cousin who was a high ranking officer of a Fortune 500
company. This guy lived to make money, but he had to have also been very
unhappy inside because his kids wouldn't talk to him (he fired his one
son just after the guy bought a mortgage and became a parent) and his
wife eventually divorced him. He had a corporate jet, a new company
provided luxury car every year, and a whole list of other perks, except
people who loved him, and he died relatively young from stress.
I just received a job offer for a position that would pay a huge amount
more than I earn now, but I just can't see myself taking it because of
all the intangible aspects of my current job that I really enjoy. I will
never be rich (unless I hit the lottery), but I will never be poor, and
I will never ever work at a job where I am unhappy going to work.
Shawn Hirn
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply <mme...@TRASHsonic.net>
wrote:
> Shawn Hirn wrote:
> >
> > What makes you think most college students haven't worked in the real
> > world by the time they got to college. I worked at least one part time
> > job per semester when I was in college to help pay the bills. Some
> > semesters, I worked more than one part time job.
>
> Well, in the first place, it wasn't me who originally said that high
> school graduates should have a year of being in the regular work force
> before attending college, and in the second place, going to work to help
> pay your school bill still puts you in academia, and working full-time
> in a regular kind of job gives you a perspective of practical
> application of what you will learn in college.
The reality is that most kids who go to work full time out of high
school never begin college, or they do so very late in life. This tends
to be because once they leave high school and go out into the work
world, they get married, have kids, and develop commitments on their
time and money that preclude going to college, or delay it by many
years. There are plenty of exceptions, of course.
clams casino
A degree typically opens door sooner in life vs. HS with years of work
experience.
It's better to have a degree with work / coop experience, but even that
will have limitations without networking which is often best achieved
through college relationships.
I'd place networking ahead of a degree and thirdly experience.
Daniel T.
> Daniel T. wrote:
> > Shawn Hirn <sr...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > > When I was in high school, my dad used to tell me that an
> > > education is the most important thing one can ever earn.
>
> > You don't need to buy an education though. You can get one without
> > stepping foot on a college campus.
>
> You can, and you can also go to college and get a degree without
> getting much of an education.
Let's group people into four classes then:
A) no education, no degree.
B) no education, has degree.
C) has education, no degree.
D) has education, has degree.
Wether or not you go to college doesn't really affect the first factor
(motivation to learn is way more important.)
> However, college is generally a marvelous opportunity to learn
> things.
So is the public library.
> There are all these other people around you, and a high proportion
> of them (compared to the general population) want to learn things,
Simply associating with intelligent, knowledgeable people has the same
effect.
> plus there are a bunch of grad students and professors you can ask
> about things if you are really curious. So for that reason, I like
> it.
However, as you note above, just because they are grad
students/professors doesn't mean they are automatically knowledgeable.
m...@mailinator.com
> <m...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187111129....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 14, 10:22 am, m...@mailinator.com wrote:
> >> On Aug 13, 9:08 pm, "Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote:
> >> > <m...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>
> >> >news:1186967959.3...@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > > ...in Tallahassee, FL...
>
> >> > > In my area people who work for stores like Target, JC Penney people
> >> > > withhighschooldiploma and 2-3 years of experience start with
> >> > > 50K(gross),
>
> >> > That's pretty good money for an area with a median family income of $30.5K.
>
> >> > I wonder why more families don't just take one of those $50K starter jobs over
> >> > at Target.
>
> >> > Don
>
> >>http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/snapshots/PL12706...
>
> > Apologies, the average median income in this area is 52K for 2006
> > according to the Money maagzine, not 57K as I mentioned earlier. It
> > was careless for me.
> > Thanks
> According to other sites, the median householder income is
> $30.8K for ages 25-34, which is what the kids were talking about.
>
> Apparently a householder is anyone who lives in a house. I mistakenly
> referred to family income, which is the total income of family members.
>
> Anyway, my point was that the $50K starting job at Target claimed by
> the kids, doesn't sound very credible.
>
> http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/incomeOverview.php?locIndex=8951
It seems to be 2000 census data.
I was also confused by the number the boys claimed. But, then it was
difficult for me to deny certain arguments posed by them like business
owners are far well off than typical employees working for someone,
and average is impacted by people like me, people(like single parents)
who are on govt. aid etc. The people who claimed fantastic incomes
seem to be accurate as those folks are in business, but they are the
people whose start ups flourished quite well, which is rare and some
had breaks like my landlord(inheritance) etc.
Thanks for your aid and time.
m...@privacy.net
>> There are all these other people around you, and a high proportion of
>> them (compared to the general population) want to learn things, plus
>> there are a bunch of grad students and professors you can ask about
>> things if you are really curious. So for that reason, I like it.
>
>I've always felt that its dinosaur stuff, a primitive way of learning things.
I'm full time adult college student right now
I agree with BOTH of you!
In some ways college is god exposure.... but in some
waste (like Rod) feel it's also a rip off one thing Id
like to see change is the METHOD in which classes are
taught
let me explain.... instead of taking say four classes
simultaneous..... calculus, chemistry, history,
ethics... and having to meet all kinds of weird
schedules.... why not do ONE subject at a time for say
three hrs a day but for three or four weeks? THEN.....
move on to next subject and do the same way?
Seems to me that this more intense way of learning
which allows one to concentrate only on that one
subject would be best
m...@privacy.net
>I'd place networking ahead of a degree and thirdly experience.
Interesting idea!
So you feel that networking trumps even education and
work experience?
And that "who you know" is THE most important factor in
success in work world?
Agree?
clams casino
Fully agree. Most jobs (especially the best jobs) seem to be obtained
through connections.
clams casino
I should have reinforced the fact that attending college is a key means
to networking / connections.
Dennis
True -- as far as initially getting in the door. However, unless you
go to work for your uncle Saul, keeping and doing well at that good
job draws more on education and experience.
Dennis (evil)
--
The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.
Cindy Hamilton
It's a good model of how the real world works. Juggling multiple
priorities and switching from one task to another is standard
operating procedure out here.
Cindy Hamilton
m...@privacy.net
>It's a good model of how the real world works. Juggling multiple
>priorities and switching from one task to another is standard
>operating procedure out here.
understand that
but not such a god way to "learn" in my
opinion....especially something such as calculus
Id much rather have ONLY a calculus class every day say
for three or four hrs daily for several weeks... rather
than intermixed with other classes (history) for 16
weeks
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> There are all these other people around you, and a high proportion
>>> of them (compared to the general population) want to learn things,
>>> plus there are a bunch of grad students and professors you can ask
>>> about things if you are really curious. So for that reason, I like it.
>> I've always felt that its dinosaur stuff, a primitive way of learning things.
> I'm full time adult college student right now
Yeah, I remembed that you said you were going to do that.
> I agree with BOTH of you!
Thats just the common effect of college, that sort of
group dynamic produces that sort of wooly 'thinking' |-)
> In some ways college is god exposure....
Thats what churches do, surely |-)
> but in some waste (like Rod) feel it's also a rip off one thing Id
> like to see change is the METHOD in which classes are taught
Yeah, that was always my main objection, the
entire concept of lectures is real dinosaur stuff.
Not so bad in the hard science with pracs etc, but the modern
trend to assignments counting towards a substantial percentage
of the final grade instead of just final exams has real downsides too.
> let me explain.... instead of taking say four classes
> simultaneous..... calculus, chemistry, history,
> ethics... and having to meet all kinds of weird
> schedules.... why not do ONE subject at a time for
> say three hrs a day but for three or four weeks?
> THEN..... move on to next subject and do the same way?
Some colleges did try that sort of thing in the 60s, but it never
really ended up being more than a short term fad. And it was
mostly used when teaching hard languages like Japanese.
> Seems to me that this more intense way of learning which allows
> one to concentrate only on that one subject would be best
Sure, but its got real downsides too, particularly for those who
treat college more as a social thing than just for education.
There is a real sense in which particularly for kids just out of
highschool, that college is more about a social situation where
the kids get more freedom to do what they want when they
want to do it, rather than the more structured high school situation.
I've got a rather jaundiced view of the college system, essentially
because what I was employed to do, computing, didnt even get
covered in any of the college education, it wasnt even available then.
Not so practical to pick it up as you go along in other
fields tho,most obviously with medicine and surgery etc.
simon
You havent established cause and effect there tho.
Its more likely to just be the result of the fact that the two populations are very different,
its the dregs of the labor market that end up with just a high school education now.
Rod Speed
> clams casino <PeterG...@drunkin-clam.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd place networking ahead of a degree and thirdly experience.
>
> Interesting idea!
>
> So you feel that networking trumps even education and work experience?
It varys dramatically with the field of work and the employment market.
> And that "who you know" is THE most important factor in success in work world?
> Agree?
Nope, its more important to actually getting the job than success in that job once you have got it.
And some fields like small business are ones where a degree isnt much use at all.
And some like medicine etc where you dont even get to start without one.
SpammersDie
<m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:9k56c3pii0pqq0dq5...@4ax.com...
At least when it comes to getting that job. (Keeping it is a slightly
different matter.)
Hiring an employee is an expensive and high risk investment and you're
entrusting him with company assets and secrets. And with all the labor
protection laws (and lawyers), cancelling your subscription to his services
is also costly and fraught with legal risk.
So you're faced with a choice of two hires. One of them has been personally
known to a trusted colleague of yours for years and he absolutely vouches
for the guy's skill and integrity. The other you only know because he sent
you a piece of junk mail (um, resume) advertising his services. They both
look great on paper.
Which one are you going to go with?
Logan Shaw
> like to see change is the METHOD in which classes are
> taught
>
> let me explain.... instead of taking say four classes
> simultaneous..... calculus, chemistry, history,
> ethics... and having to meet all kinds of weird
> schedules.... why not do ONE subject at a time for say
> three hrs a day but for three or four weeks? THEN.....
> move on to next subject and do the same way?
Well, if that's what you want, maybe you should be going to Cornell
College[1]. Read the links:
http://www.cornellcollege.edu/ocaat/index.shtml
http://www.cornellcollege.edu/ocaat/faq.shtml
Having said that, I believe they're a small liberal arts school, so if
you want an engineering or science degree, they're not the right place
to go, probably.
- Logan
[1] Not the same thing as Cornell University.
Shawn Hirn
wrote:
Networking is very important, but its hard to paint with a wide brush to
say its more (or less) important than a college education to advance
one's career. It really depends on the individual situation.
For example, a medical doctor in private practice probably can get away
with minimal professional networking, but as an IT specialist, I find
networking is essential to my work and maintaining job security. My
education has definitely helped me network because a lot of my most key
acquaintances are people who I met in college. Most colleges and
universities have a very active alumni association where graduates can
get together to network. Some of the contacts I made many years ago when
I was in school have helped me greatly in my career advancement and
there is no way that would have happened if I didn't get a college
education AND make the effort to get to know people.
Cindy Hamilton
Ah. And learning that you can't always have what you want is a
valuable lesson, too.
Frankly, I wouldn't even want to do something enjoyable for three or
four hours. An hour or so is plenty.
Cindy Hamilton
Logan Shaw
> On Aug 15, 2:56 pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
>> Id much rather have ONLY a calculus class every day say
>> for three or four hrs daily for several weeks... rather
>> than intermixed with other classes (history) for 16
>> weeks
> Ah. And learning that you can't always have what you want is a
> valuable lesson, too.
That's a good point. I do a job that requires a fair amount of
concentration and sometimes deep thought, and I don't always have
the luxury of setting aside uninterrupted hour upon hour to do it,
because I have other things to do. It's good to have the ability
to do stuff like that without needing the big block of time.
On the other hand, I do still prefer having the big block of
time to concentrate on one thing and one thing only, at least a
lot of the time.
> Frankly, I wouldn't even want to do something enjoyable for three or
> four hours. An hour or so is plenty.
It depends on the person maybe, and also probably on the activity.
At one point many years ago, there was a period of maybe 3 or 4
months where I played the piano sometimes 6 or more hours straight
almost every day. It was a lot of fun, although after a while your
back starts to hurt...
- Logan
Rod Speed
Come to think of it, that is how I do all the non formal learning.
And I did it with the formal learning with the flying too.
And its normally for a lot more than 3-4 hours a day too.
I generally dont bother with formal learning anymore tho, never bothered with
it with any of the computing, house building, car maintenance, etc etc etc.