Frugal pre-paid funeral expenses?
bb9...@yahoo.com
that will pre-pay my funeral/burial costs. I'm going to be checking
out here at the end of the fall of this year. When my grandmother
died, her expenses ended up being around $9,000 in total for
everything (casket, transport, burial, etc). I don't want my family
to have to deal with coming up with a whole bunch of money again for
these kinds of expeneses related to me.
I've got around $2,000 right now saved, and I'm thinking with work I'd
should have around $5,000 by late fall. Will that be enough to cover
things and not leave any loose ends? I'm looking to get some basic
plan that would cover everything, and that wouldn't have any
additional fees or costs down the road.
Another thing I'm wondering is about the process itself. I'm in my mid
30s, and we live in medium-sized town (between 75,000 and 100,000
people). If I go to a funeral home in the area and try to discuss
setting something up, will they act all weird about it or ask too many
questions about why I'm doing this? And are they bound by any
confidentiality agreement? Since we don't live in a mega city, I don't
want anyone to know that I'm doing this. Thanks!
Al Bundy
If you are serious, why not consider cremation services? You need to
be the one to suggest it because the funeral homes don't make big
money on such minimal work. If you have the ashes buried, that's an
added expense for the plot and marker if desired. The cheapest way
would be cremation where a relative takes the ashes and disposes of
them. All the remains of my uncle's family were distributed in the
lake where they owned a cottage.
You could be like Mr. T. His doctors said he had a year to live so he
gave away all his vast resources. Then he got well and had to go back
to work.
Rod Speed
Even cheaper to not bother to collect the ashes at all.
> You could be like Mr. T. His doctors said he had a year to live so he gave
> away all his vast resources. Then he got well and had to go back to work.
This one looks like he plans to pull the plug deliberately, hence the question about
how to avoid the funeral place getting suspicious about him paying in advance.
Don K
news:1184619115.8...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> ... If I go to a funeral home in the area and try to discuss
> setting something up, will they act all weird about it or ask too many
> questions about why I'm doing this? And are they bound by any
> confidentiality agreement?
No one can predict what someone else might or might not do, but I
don't think anyone in that business would act weird or ask prying questions.
Of course if they make you uncomfortable, walk out and go somewhere else.
You might also want to do some research as to whether vaults or concrete
liners are actually legally required or whether it's just another profit center
for the funeral home and cemetery. Maybe you can also find a funeral home
willing to accept a prepaid deal using a bring-your-own-casket bought on
the internet.
Another option is to donate your body to science and just arrange some sort
of memorial service without the body. Ultimately the institution will then take
care of cremation and return any remains to next of kin if desired.
You can also google burial society for ideas.
Don
Ward Abbott
>I've got around $2,000 right now saved, and I'm thinking with work I'd
>should have around $5,000 by late fall.
Enjoy the money.......after all...someone needs to put "fun" back in
funerals.
Funerals are only for the living. Dying a pauper is not a sin. The
county will be taking care of you long before the stench sets in.
Steve
>>> that will pre-pay my funeral/burial costs. I'm going to be checking
>>> out here at the end of the fall of this year. When my grandmother
>>> died, her expenses ended up being around $9,000 in total for
>>> everything (casket, transport, burial, etc).
If you know someone's dying and they don't have a prepaid plan, need
to act quick. The costs can double or triple depending on whether you
get the thing paid for before or after death. It can literally be a
matter of minutes, checked against the time posted on the death
certificate. I know some folks who found out the hard way...
--
The government is unresponsive to the needs of the little man.
Under 5'7" it is impossible to get your congressman on the phone.
...Woody Allen
Zilbandy
>I've got around $2,000 right now saved,
You've probably got more than enough for a prepaid cremation plan.
--
Zilbandy
Melissa
>
> If you are serious, why not consider cremation services? You need to
> be the one to suggest it because the funeral homes don't make big
> money on such minimal work. If you have the ashes buried, that's an
> added expense for the plot and marker if desired. The cheapest way
> would be cremation where a relative takes the ashes and disposes of
> them. All the remains of my uncle's family were distributed in the
> lake where they owned a cottage.
> You could be like Mr. T. His doctors said he had a year to live so he
> gave away all his vast resources. Then he got well and had to go back
> to work.
>
My father died in 2000. He was also cremated. We did have one set of
calling hours with a "viewing", then he was cremated after. That funeral
still cost over $6000. In 1992, we pre-paid for a Great Aunt who was ill.
She died in 1997. Even with pre-paying, and going without a limo, and one
of the least expensive coffins, it cost about $6000. It was the same for my
Grandmother at a different funeral home. Opening (digging) the grave also
cost about $400 back then, and wasn't included in the price of the pre-pray.
We had to contact the cemetary seperately. Most people don't realize it's a
seperate cost.
The only way you could get a funeral for a lot less would be with nothing
happening at all at the funeral home. No calling hours, no viewing at all,
just the service at a church instead. That just doesn't work for many
families. IMO, calling hours are a necessary part of grieving and dealing
with the loss. If you want to have a viewing at the church, then you have to
pay to have the body taken there by the funeral home hearse, then on to the
cemetary.
I know people disagree, but it's how we feel about it. We've made sure to
have a certain amount of our life insurance left to the person who will be
making those arrangements. In my father's case, the funeral home knew about
the policy and they waited until it was paid out for their payment. Those
aren't usually drug out by the insurance companies.
Melissa
the_ver...@comcast.net
Is there a medical school nearby?
The most frugal thing is to donate your body to science. The body is
delivered to the school and then after it is used for teaching
purposes it is usually then cremated and your family notified of the
date of burial service- it may be a year or more. No charge. Both my
mother and step-father did this and I will be doing the same... and
we'll all wind up in the same plot that is owned by the medical
school.
jo...@phred.org
bb9...@yahoo.com says...
> Hello. I'd like to get some advice about trying to set up something
> that will pre-pay my funeral/burial costs. I'm going to be checking
> out here at the end of the fall of this year.
Does this mean you're planning suicide? Have you been in contact with a
mental health professional to be sure you aren't suffering from clinical
depression or other easily treated mental disorder?
More than one reason for asking this question: besides the obvious
huamnitarian concern, if you are not mentally competent, you are not
able to enter into legally-binding contracts, which could complicate any
pre-paid arrangements you might try to make.
> When my grandmother
> died, her expenses ended up being around $9,000 in total for
> everything (casket, transport, burial, etc). I don't want my family
> to have to deal with coming up with a whole bunch of money again for
> these kinds of expeneses related to me.
Assuming you're seriously planning suicide, and your mental health is in
order, I would think your least expensive option is drowning yourself at
sea or in a lake at a depth that precludes recovering your body. Leave
a detailed enough description of your plans that officials know not to
waste time on search & rescue.
But if that does not fit your plans, check your local yellow pages for
cremation services, call them up and ask for bare-bones pricing. I
would suspect you already have enough money for that. If so, you don't
necessarily need to pre-pay, just specify your wishes when you have your
will drafted.
I would expect you already have enough money to pay for both a basic
will and a basic cremation. If you are concerned enough about your
family to worry about the expenses, you should definitely take the time
to consult an attorney for a basic will.
(A competent attorney would undoubtedly repeat the mental health
concerns I mentioned above, since mental competence can affect the
validity of your will, too. So, in order, get your mental health
checked if you haven't already, then get a will, then make sure you have
the funds for your final expenses.)
--
jo...@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html>
Don K
news:MPG.2107f6d0f...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> But if that does not fit your plans, check your local yellow pages for
> cremation services, call them up and ask for bare-bones pricing.
That makes sense.
Incinerating only down to bare bones wouldn't require as much fuel
and should be a lot cheaper.
Don
No Embalming
>The most frugal thing is to donate your body to science. The body is
>delivered to the school and then after it is used for teaching
>purposes it is usually then cremated and your family notified of the
>date of burial service- it may be a year or more. No charge. Both my
>mother and step-father did this and I will be doing the same... and
>we'll all wind up in the same plot that is owned by the medical
>school.
Not all bodies are suitable and accepted for "donation to science."
Ideally the schools want young and fresh bodies. I read once where some
wino on skid row instructed to have his body donated to science. But the
school rejected it because the body had all sorts of problems from years of
homelessness and alcoholism.
In any case, ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND!?!?!?! Do you know what they do to
bodies donated to science? It's absolutely horrible, what happens to a cow
at the meat packing plant is better than what they do to human bodies at a
medical school. And don't give us all the bullshit arguments about how
when one is dead it all doesn't matter. Wrong, it does matter. I need not
go into the specific details but believe me, what goes on at a medical
school is an absolute chamber or horrors, something even Vincent Price
couldn't come up with. Don't donate your body to science, it will be a
decision you and your family will regret for eternity!!!!!!!
Anthony Matonak
...
> In any case, ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND!?!?!?! Do you know what they do to
> bodies donated to science? It's absolutely horrible, what happens to a cow
> at the meat packing plant is better than what they do to human bodies at a
> medical school. And don't give us all the bullshit arguments about how
> when one is dead it all doesn't matter. Wrong, it does matter.
Do you know what happens to bodies that are embalmed? How about after
they are buried? Do you think any of that is better than what they
do to it in medical school? At the least, a donation to science may
help someone else down the road.
Anthony
Rod Speed
His family clearly didnt.
ra...@vt.edu
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:17:36 -0700, "the_ver...@comcast.net"
> <the_ver...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >The most frugal thing is to donate your body to science. The body is
> >delivered to the school and then after it is used for teaching
> >purposes it is usually then cremated and your family notified of the
> >date of burial service- it may be a year or more. No charge. Both my
> Not all bodies are suitable and accepted for "donation to science."
> Ideally the schools want young and fresh bodies. I read once where some
> wino on skid row instructed to have his body donated to science. But the
> school rejected it because the body had all sorts of problems from years of
> homelessness and alcoholism.
You "read once somewhere?" Great citation. I've actually been to a
gross anatomy lab with my daughter when she was in med school. For sure
the bodies were not perfect, young, specimens. In fact I'd think they'd
want a mix, and that is what they had. Young, old, male, female and
different health conditions. Part of the point is to see what disease
does to the human body.
> In any case, ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND!?!?!?! Do you know what they do to
> bodies donated to science? It's absolutely horrible, what happens to a cow
I know what happened at the med school my daughter attended, at least
to some extent. They were quite respectful of the donors. True, they
were disassembling them, but that is the point. Doctors are supposed
to understand how the body works and what and where all the parts are.
> at the meat packing plant is better than what they do to human bodies at a
> medical school. And don't give us all the bullshit arguments about how
> when one is dead it all doesn't matter. Wrong, it does matter. I need not
> go into the specific details but believe me, what goes on at a medical
> school is an absolute chamber or horrors, something even Vincent Price
> couldn't come up with. Don't donate your body to science, it will be a
> decision you and your family will regret for eternity!!!!!!!
You will have to be more specific about what matters, and why. And while
you are at it, give us an example of the "horrors" you are talking about.
You are being entriely too vague to be believable. I mean, if your
religion believes in the physical reincarnation of your body and you
can't have it used for research for that reason, fine, just say that,
otherwise you need to make a more reasoned argument.
Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.
the_ver...@comcast.net
> In any case, ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND!?!?!?! Do you know what they do to
> bodies donated to science? It's absolutely horrible, what happens to a cow
> at the meat packing plant is better than what they do to human bodies at a
> medical school. And don't give us all the bullshit arguments about how
> when one is dead it all doesn't matter. Wrong, it does matter. I need not
> go into the specific details but believe me, what goes on at a medical
> school is an absolute chamber or horrors, something even Vincent Price
> couldn't come up with. Don't donate your body to science, it will be a
> decision you and your family will regret for eternity!!!!!!!
Relax-ok?
1). Since I won't be here to experience it "eternity' is now and shall
remian meanlingless for me.
2). My family is in total agreement with my decision.
3). Having been in the medical field most of my working life I am
quite aware of exactly how such bodied are treated...with respect and
dignity - at least at the medical school I've chosen ( and yes, all
paperwork has been completed and approved).
Usene...@the-domain-in.sig
nos...@neo.rr.com says...
> I know people disagree, but it's how we feel about it. We've made sure to
> have a certain amount of our life insurance left to the person who will be
> making those arrangements. In my father's case, the funeral home knew about
> the policy and they waited until it was paid out for their payment. Those
> aren't usually drug out by the insurance companies.
Imagine the call to the insurance company...
"Hey, if you don't pay out on uncle Morty's insurance right now
so I can bury him, I'm gonna bring him over and sit him in your
waiting room."
--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum
Dennis
>The most frugal thing is to donate your body to science.
Much more frugal to sell it!
Here is a website that calculates how much your corpse might be worth:
http://mingle2.com/cadaver-calculator
(Note: I am not selling anything. The website in the link might be,
but it is easy enough to ignore. I am not affiliated with them in any
way, yada-yada-yada.)
Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally
Tisha
CHECK OUT (NO PUN INTENDED) THIS WEBSITE: http://www.medcure.org/
THIS IS WHERE I'M REGISTERED. WHEN I DIE, THERE'S ONLY GOING TO BE
ONE PHONE CALL THAT MY FAMILY WILL HAVE TO MAKE. I OPTED FOR THE NO
RETURN OF ASHES, SO HERE TODAY, GONE TOMORROW!!
bb9...@yahoo.com
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:17:36 -0700, "the_vermina...@comcast.net"
>
> <the_vermina...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >The mostfrugalthing is to donate your body to science.
>
> Much morefrugalto sell it!
>
> Here is a website that calculates how much your corpse might be worth:
>
> http://mingle2.com/cadaver-calculator
>
> (Note: I am not selling anything. The website in the link might be,
> but it is easy enough to ignore. I am not affiliated with them in any
> way, yada-yada-yada.)
>
> Dennis (evil)
> --
> "There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally
Thank you everyone for the responses. Yes, this will be a suicide
situation. My family has never been a fan of cremation, but at the
same time I don't want to put them thru having to selecting a casket,
tombstone, and all the other stuff. If I can take care of all that
ahead of time by pre-paying, that will save them both money and
inconvenience. My father in particular would be plenty upset about
having to come up with another $9,000 for funeral expenses. I figure
if I can take care of this stuff ahead of time it will be a win-win
situation in terms of the expense and headaches.
Don K
news:1185481985.5...@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> Thank you everyone for the responses. Yes, this will be a suicide
> situation. My family has never been a fan of cremation, but at the
> same time I don't want to put them thru having to selecting a casket,
> tombstone, and all the other stuff. If I can take care of all that
> ahead of time by pre-paying, that will save them both money and
> inconvenience. My father in particular would be plenty upset about
> having to come up with another $9,000 for funeral expenses. I figure
> if I can take care of this stuff ahead of time it will be a win-win
> situation in terms of the expense and headaches.
>
Since in your original post, you mentioned that "we" live in a city,
you should really, really consider the mess you will leave for your
family to clean up and deal with, aside from those funeral details,
which are relatively trivial in the overall scheme of things.
I've seen the impact that suicides can have on family members in terms
guilt, anger, and hardship, especially if there is a spouse and kids involved.
Don
Rod Speed
And plenty where its what makes sense too.
Stupid god botherers dont approve ? Their problem.
bb9...@yahoo.com
> <bb90...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
There is no spouse or kids involved, so if there was I could see your
point. But at other times a suicide can actually be the best situation
for everyone involved. It really can be a win-win. Few people will
admit that, but it's true.
Rod Speed
> On Jul 26, 5:55 pm, "Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote:
>> <bb90...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1185481985.5...@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>> Thank you everyone for the responses. Yes, this will be a suicide
>>> situation. My family has never been a fan of cremation, but at the
>>> same time I don't want to put them thru having to selecting a
>>> casket, tombstone, and all the other stuff. If I can take care of
>>> all that ahead of time by pre-paying, that will save them both
>>> money and inconvenience. My father in particular would be plenty
>>> upset about having to come up with another $9,000 for funeral
>>> expenses. I figure if I can take care of this stuff ahead of time
>>> it will be a win-win situation in terms of the expense and
>>> headaches.
>>
>> Since in your original post, you mentioned that "we" live in a city,
>> you should really, really consider the mess you will leave for your
>> family to clean up and deal with, aside from those funeral details,
>> which are relatively trivial in the overall scheme of things.
>>
>> I've seen the impact that suicides can have on family members in
>> terms
>> guilt, anger, and hardship, especially if there is a spouse and kids
>> involved.
> There is no spouse or kids involved, so if there was I could see your point.
It can still be true in that case too.
> But at other times a suicide can actually be the best situation
> for everyone involved. It really can be a win-win.
It can indeed.
> Few people will admit that, but it's true.
Yeah, most are rather horrified, mindlessly.
And then there's the fools that just decided that some damned god or other doesnt like it.
Logan Shaw
> On Jul 26, 5:55 pm, "Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote:
>> <bb90...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1185481985.5...@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>> Thank you everyone for the responses. Yes, this will be a suicide
>>> situation. My family has never been a fan of cremation, but at the
>>> same time I don't want to put them thru having to selecting a casket,
>>> tombstone, and all the other stuff. If I can take care of all that
>>> ahead of time by pre-paying
>> I've seen the impact that suicides can have on family members in terms
>> guilt, anger, and hardship, especially if there is a spouse and kids involved.
> There is no spouse or kids involved, so if there was I could see your
> point. But at other times a suicide can actually be the best situation
> for everyone involved. It really can be a win-win.
I don't want to ramble on too much about this, so I'll get straight to
the point. Hopefully not an oversimplification, but basically suicide
is what happens when someone runs out of other ways (that they know of)
to cope with their situation[1].
As such, you are by definition in a difficult situation. By definition,
there are strong forces pressing you in a direction that you would not
normally be inclined to go. Under the weight of those forces, it
becomes hard to really be objective and think totally rationally.
Don is right about the effect that suicide can have on family and friends.
I know because I've seen (felt) it first-hand. But I don't say this to
make you feel guilty. I don't want to put more pressure when there is
already too much pressure. I merely bring it up to illustrate that if
you are thinking in terms of it being a "win-win", then probably that
indicates your view is being clouded.
The point of all this is that I am trying to encourage you to seek out
people who can support you and help you find ways to cope. This world
can be harsh sometimes, but don't let that make you think there aren't
people out there who are willing to help. I know that when my friend
chose suicide, he did not seem to understand what his friends would
have been willing to do for him, had they (we) known that he needed it.
- Logan
[1] barring circumstances like a truly terminal physical illness;
that is a bit of a different situation.
Rod Speed
> bb9...@yahoo.com wrote
>>>> Thank you everyone for the responses. Yes, this will be a suicide
>>>> situation. My family has never been a fan of cremation, but at the
>>>> same time I don't want to put them thru having to selecting a
>>>> casket, tombstone, and all the other stuff. If I can take care of
>>>> all that ahead of time by pre-paying
>>> I've seen the impact that suicides can have on family members in terms guilt, anger, and
>>> hardship, especially if there is a spouse and kids involved.
>> There is no spouse or kids involved, so if there was I could see your point. But at other times a
>> suicide can actually be the best situation for everyone involved. It really can be a win-win.
> I don't want to ramble on too much about this, so I'll get straight to the point. Hopefully not
> an oversimplification, but basically suicide is what happens when someone runs out of other ways
> (that they know of) to cope with their situation[1].
Nope, its also the best approach in some situations.
> As such, you are by definition in a difficult situation.
Wrong again.
> By definition, there are strong forces pressing you in a direction that you would not normally be
> inclined to go.
Wrong again. It is just what plenty are inclined to do in that situation.
> Under the weight of those forces, it becomes hard to really be objective and think totally
> rationally.
And plenty come to the objective and rational conclusion that is the best thing to do.
> Don is right about the effect that suicide can have on family and friends.
And he's wrong when he implys that that effect is anything like the most common result.
> I know because I've seen (felt) it first-hand.
And plenty have the reverse too, none of those consequences.
> But I don't say this to make you feel guilty. I don't want to put more pressure when there is
> already too much pressure.
You dont know that there is any pressure at all.
> I merely bring it up to illustrate that if you are thinking in terms of it being a "win-win", then
> probably that indicates your view is being clouded.
Like hell it does.
That is just your prejudices talking.
> The point of all this is that I am trying to encourage you to seek out people who can support you
> and help you find ways to cope.
Plenty dont want to cope, they have decided that its the best approach.
> This world can be harsh sometimes, but don't let that make you think there aren't people out there
> who are willing to help.
Plenty dont want help and have decided that they have had a
pretty decent life and that the future doesnt appeal. Their choice.
> I know that when my friend chose suicide, he did not seem to understand what his friends would
> have been willing to do for him, had they (we) known that he needed it.
Very arrogant assumption that he needed help.
> [1] barring circumstances like a truly terminal physical illness;
> that is a bit of a different situation.
What is so 'irrational' about deciding that suicide is preferred to the non suicide situation ?
Rod Speed
And presumably he was aware of the your attitude and thats why he
never said anything about his suicide, so you couldnt interfere with it.
>> [1] barring circumstances like a truly terminal physical illness;
>> that is a bit of a different situation.
> What is so 'irrational' about deciding that suicide is preferred to the non suicide situation ?
We had one of the locals in a 50K town who murdered 3 kids. No
one could work out who had done it until the murderer botched an
attempt at suicide, it failed largely due to poor planning/bad luck.
The stupid legal system fixed the medical problems, wasted an
immense amount of money on the full trial etc and conviction.
The murderer eventually managed to kill himself effectively in jail.
Our equivalent of Greenspan and his wife both decided that they had
had a very decent life, that the downsides of old age didnt appeal, and
they both chose to suicide. Lots of howling by the stupid god botherers,
but obviously the suiciders werent around to actually give a damn.
There's plenty of situations other than terminal
physical illness where suicide makes sense.
bb9...@yahoo.com
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>
>
>
>
>
> > Logan Shaw <lshaw-use...@austin.rr.com> wrote
> >> bb90...@yahoo.com wrote
>
> - Show quoted text -
Rod Speed is definitely one who "gets it" in terms of this issue.
Wayne Sallee
Wayne Sallee
Webm...@LeesburgNazarene.org
Rod Speed
> Eternity is a long time.
There is no eternity, just the time between when you
choose to end your life and when it would otherwise end.
> bb9...@yahoo.com wrote
Logan Shaw
> Rod Speed is definitely one who "gets it" in terms of this issue.
I don't want to get into a debate, but I want to emphasize something,
because I think it's important.
What I want to emphasize is that suicide is often chosen when you're
in a state that makes it very difficult to think rationally or
objectively. For example, when a mother chooses suicide and leaves
behind young children, was she likely thinking rationally? The
parenting instinct is incredibly strong, so for anything to
override it must mean that that thing has a powerful ability to
alter your thinking.
No, I can't prove that everyone who ever chose suicide was acting
irrationally. But of all the people who commit suicide, what
percentage of them were thinking rationally? Not very many. The
stresses and personal difficulties that push people to the point of
considering suicide are also hard on your mind and can compromise
your ability to think clearly.
I say all that because I want to ask you to examine your thoughts
and be sure you are thinking clearly. There is often a tendency to
rationalize and justify the choice. So I'm asking you to check
for yourself whether you're being honest with yourself about who
you will be hurting and how much, whether you're rationalizing
things, and in general whether you can be confident that you're
thinking clearly.
Once again, this is not meant to make you feel guilty, since that
would serve no purpose. I am only hoping to help in some way if I
can. Even though I don't know what I really can do, at least know
that I am thinking about you. (And most likely, I'm not the only
one.)
- Logan
Rod Speed
> bb9...@yahoo.com wrote
>> Rod Speed is definitely one who "gets it" in terms of this issue.
> I don't want to get into a debate, but I want to emphasize something, because I think it's
> important.
Its easy to overstate it tho and it isnt as black and white as you suggest.
> What I want to emphasize is that suicide is often chosen when you're
> in a state that makes it very difficult to think rationally or objectively.
Nope, plenty manage to do that fine.
> For example, when a mother chooses suicide and leaves
> behind young children, was she likely thinking rationally?
She may be, most obviously when she has serious problems
and the kids are better off without her like with a serious drug
habit and she hasnt been able to do something about that.
> The parenting instinct is incredibly strong,
Mindlessly silly. It isnt for plenty.
> so for anything to override it must mean that that thing has a powerful ability to alter your
> thinking.
Mindlessly silly. And that particular situation is irrelevant to hordes
of others where there are no young children involved anyway.
> No, I can't prove that everyone who ever chose suicide was acting irrationally. But of all the
> people who commit suicide, what
> percentage of them were thinking rationally? Not very many.
Easy to claim. Hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.
> The stresses and personal difficulties that push people to the point of considering suicide are
> also hard on your mind and can compromise your ability to think clearly.
And there are plenty of situations where its the rational and sensible thing to do too.
> I say all that because I want to ask you to examine your thoughts and be sure you are thinking
> clearly.
Seems to be thinking very clearly to me, including sorting out
paying for what needs to be done to the body after death, so
no one else will have to pay for that or organise it either.
> There is often a tendency to rationalize and justify the choice.
Doesnt mean that it isnt the rational choice.
> So I'm asking you to check for yourself whether you're being honest with yourself about who you
> will be hurting and how much,
There are plenty of situations where not everyone will agree with
the choices made, but its the rational choice to make anyway.
Essentially their hangups are their problem in the ultimate and it
makes absolutely no sense to continue with what you have decided
makes no sense just because some wont like the choice made.
> whether you're rationalizing things, and in general whether you can be confident that you're
> thinking clearly.
Plenty make all sorts of life choices without
it even being possible to be confident of that.
And in the ultimate, does it actually matter if
one of billions chooses to pull the plug on their life ?
> Once again, this is not meant to make you feel guilty, since that
> would serve no purpose. I am only hoping to help in some way if I
> can. Even though I don't know what I really can do, at least know
> that I am thinking about you. (And most likely, I'm not the only one.)
Yes, and some have decided that its his choice, not yours.
bb9...@yahoo.com
I do appreciate your senitments. I really do, and you seem like a
thoughtful and decent person. I realize that there are caring people
out there.
However, I also know that the decision to end one's life can be a
perfectly rational one, that is well thought-out.
When I took a very concentrated look at what the lasting effects would
be related to my passing there just simply is no doubt in my mind that
it's going to be a very good and worthwhile thing. I never made any
kind of impact in life, or deep connections to people. As for my
family, when I think about the income they've spent on me since
childhood (support, food, clothes, school, etc), it's staggering to
think of how all of this has been wasted. I've also never been any
kind of success in terms of making good money or having any kind of
decent job. All of my jobs have been dead-end, and with no benefits.
All of this takes a toll on a family over a period of many years.
Eventually, you can tell how ashamed they are of you inside. They
won't say it of course, but it's true.
I'm sure my suicide at first may not be the most comfortable thing for
them (since when anyone dies it can be a shock).
But when I think of the years they'll have without having to deal with
anything related to me anymore, it's really going to a very good thing
for all. After a few years, and memories start to fade, their lives
will have returned to how things were before I was around. The freedom
they will have in being able to live once more will be the greatest
gift I could have ever given them.
Wayne Sallee
investment in your life?
How are they going to feel when that investment is
destroyed?
Have they totally lost hope in that investment?
Wayne Sallee
Webm...@LeesburgNazarene.org
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Wayne Sallee
Before you do, take a look at this and give it some
thought.
http://www.leesburgnazarene.org/eternallife.html
Wayne Sallee
Webm...@LeesburgNazarene.org
Rod Speed
> http://www.leesburgnazarene.org/eternallife.html
No thanks, just the usual crap that pervades that pathetic excuse for a fairy story.
And even that pathetic excuse for a fairy story can be used to justify suicide anyway.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Wayne Sallee <Wa...@WayneSallee.com> wrote:
>>> Before you do, take a look at this and give it some thought.
>>> http://www.leesburgnazarene.org/eternallife.html
>> No thanks, just the usual crap that pervades that pathetic excuse for a fairy story.
>> And even that pathetic excuse for a fairy story can be used to justify suicide anyway.
> I was not telling you to go there.
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
Who you might have told in spades.
> And I can tell by your response that you didn't :-)
Now you get to wipe that egg off your face. Again.
Chloe
news:46b9220b$0$16366$8826...@free.teranews.com...
>
>
> Rod Speed wrote on 8/7/2007 9:45 PM:
>> Wayne Sallee <Wa...@WayneSallee.com> wrote:
>
> Snip
>
>>> Before you do, take a look at this and give it some thought.
>>
>>> http://www.leesburgnazarene.org/eternallife.html
>>
>> No thanks, just the usual crap that pervades that pathetic excuse for a
>> fairy story.
>>
>> And even that pathetic excuse for a fairy story can be used to justify
>> suicide anyway.
>
> you didn't :-)
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Webm...@LeesburgNazarene.org
I'm not sure that reading a web site or contacting any religious
organization would do the OP much good at this point--he seems extremely
hopeless, consumed by loneliness, and intent on ending the pain he's in. A
visit with a pastor *might* help (or more importantly, yield some leads for
help), but I'd direct him to one of the less conservative denominations like
the Unitarians, Episcopalians, or the ELCA Lutherans, as opposed to a
Nazarene church. Someplace he'll hear more about love, less about judgment.
Sorry you won't like this, Mr. Sallee, but that's just how I see it, based
on my experience.
Logan Shaw
> However, I also know that the decision to end one's life can be a
> perfectly rational one, that is well thought-out.
>
> When I took a very concentrated look at what the lasting effects would
> be related to my passing there just simply is no doubt in my mind that
> it's going to be a very good and worthwhile thing. I never made any
> kind of impact in life, or deep connections to people. As for my
> family, when I think about the income they've spent on me since
> childhood (support, food, clothes, school, etc), it's staggering to
> think of how all of this has been wasted. I've also never been any
> kind of success in terms of making good money or having any kind of
> decent job. All of my jobs have been dead-end, and with no benefits.
> All of this takes a toll on a family over a period of many years.
> Eventually, you can tell how ashamed they are of you inside. They
> won't say it of course, but it's true.
>
> I'm sure my suicide at first may not be the most comfortable thing for
> them (since when anyone dies it can be a shock).
>
> But when I think of the years they'll have without having to deal with
> anything related to me anymore, it's really going to a very good thing
> for all. After a few years, and memories start to fade, their lives
> will have returned to how things were before I was around.
I am surprised to see you place such a low value on yourself. And I
am surprised that you think your parents place such a low value on you.
Most parents want nothing more than to help out their children in
whatever way they can. And where there are exceptions to that, the
parents are the ones who are amiss. I obviously don't know your
parents personally, but I'm sure they spent all that income on you
because they wanted to. Everyone is faced with choices in life, and
I'm sure if someone asked them whether they'd rather keep the money or
use it to care for their child, they would say without hesitation that
they want to use it for their child. Obviously they must be thinking
something like this because that is what they've chosen to do.
And even if you had disappointed them in some way, it doesn't mean
they'd be happier if you weren't around. Not in the short run, and
not in the long run either. I bet what would make them the happiest
is if you realized your own worth and learned to treat yourself like
what you are worth instead of treating yourself like you are worth
less than you really are. I bet it would make you happier, too.
To be honest, you sound really down on yourself. And you know what?
That's OK, because it's just a feeling, and from time to time people
have feelings that come out of left field. Sometimes chronically.
It's just part of being human. What I wish for you is that you will
see past it and see yourself as worth what you really are, rather
than, I hate to say it, seeing with the distorted view you seem to
have right now.
I guess it's cheesy to quote song lyrics, but there is a song by
Victoria Williams called "Century Plant" that I think has a lot of
truth to it. Lyrics here:
http://www.lyricsdownload.com/victoria-williams-century-plant-lyrics.html
- Logan
Rod Speed
> bb9...@yahoo.com wrote
>> However, I also know that the decision to end one's life can be a perfectly rational one, that is
>> well thought-out.
>> When I took a very concentrated look at what the lasting effects
>> would be related to my passing there just simply is no doubt in my
>> mind that it's going to be a very good and worthwhile thing. I never
>> made any kind of impact in life, or deep connections to people. As
>> for my family, when I think about the income they've spent on me
>> since childhood (support, food, clothes, school, etc), it's
>> staggering to think of how all of this has been wasted. I've also
>> never been any kind of success in terms of making good money or
>> having any kind of decent job. All of my jobs have been dead-end,
>> and with no benefits. All of this takes a toll on a family over a
>> period of many years. Eventually, you can tell how ashamed they are of you inside. They won't say
>> it of course, but it's true.
>> I'm sure my suicide at first may not be the most comfortable thing for them (since when anyone
>> dies it can be a shock).
>> But when I think of the years they'll have without having to deal
>> with anything related to me anymore, it's really going to a very
>> good thing for all. After a few years, and memories start to fade,
>> their lives will have returned to how things were before I was around.
> I am surprised to see you place such a low value on yourself.
More fool you. Its more surprising that many
more dont come to the same rational conclusion.
> And I am surprised that you think your parents place such a low value on you.
You have absolutely no idea what his parents are like.
> Most parents want nothing more than to help out their children in whatever way they can.
Most is completely irrelevant.
> And where there are exceptions to that, the parents are the ones who are amiss.
Nope, its a perfectly rational conclusion at times.
> I obviously don't know your parents personally, but I'm sure they spent all that income on you
> because they wanted to.
More fool you. Plenty didnt.
> Everyone is faced with choices in life,
And few ever rationally consider those choices.
> and I'm sure if someone asked them whether they'd rather keep the money or use it to care for
> their child, they would say without hesitation that they want to use it for their child.
More fool you.
> Obviously they must be thinking something like this because that is what they've chosen to do.
Or they ended up with a dud and get to wear that.
> And even if you had disappointed them in some way, it doesn't mean they'd be happier if you
> weren't around. Not in the short run, and not in the long run either. I bet what would make them
> the happiest is if you realized your own worth
You aint established that he hasnt done that.
> and learned to treat yourself like what you are worth
You aint established that he hasnt done that.
> instead of treating yourself like you are worth less than you really are.
You aint established that he has done that.
> I bet it would make you happier, too.
More fool you.
You're off in Alice in Wonderland.
> To be honest, you sound really down on yourself.
Or he might well have got it right.
> And you know what? That's OK, because it's just a feeling, and from time to time people have
> feelings that come out of left field.
You aint established that either.
> Sometimes chronically. It's just part of being human.
And perfectly reasonable for someone that happens to do kill themselves.
Just like its perfectly reasonable for someone with mental
illness with very unsatisfactory detail to do that too.
> What I wish for you is that you will see past it and see yourself as worth what you really are,
You havent established that he hasnt done that.
> rather than, I hate to say it, seeing with the distorted view you seem to have right now.
You havent established that either.
> I guess it's cheesy to quote song lyrics,
Yep.
> but there is a song by Victoria Williams called "Century Plant" that I think has a lot of truth to
> it.
More fool you.
> Lyrics here:
> http://www.lyricsdownload.com/victoria-williams-century-plant-lyrics.html
Pardon me while I have a quiet retch.
Its clear why that individual who chose to kill himself that you knew personally
had enough of a clue to not say anything you you before doing that.