Repairing a broken drain line
Sammy bin Snoozin
We have had a roto-rooter dude run his camera up a terra cotta drain pipe and saw that there is a break about 15-ft inside the concrete basement floor from the wall. They quoted $2400 to jack hammer the slab (inside a basement) and replace the pipe. That does not include pouring new concrete and finishing the floor.
We have called a few other plumbers but one couldn't do it and the others either won't quote or won't even show up to look at it.
Question is.... I heard that there was a way to insert a PVC pipe or tube inside just smaller than the original pipe which would allow normal drainage. It would not seal against the wall and not seal the hole, but roots (the current problem) would not penetrate the PVC.
It would be slightly smaller diameter, but should be plenty big for what the drain pipe now carries (no washer or other high flow appliances, etc.)
Anyway.... long story.... but ...
1 - Is $2400 reasonable?
2 - Is PVC insert an alternative? cheaper?
3 - Is there a general rule of thumb for when to repair an old line vs installing a new one? (This house has been added on and the new line would be a more direct route that the old one(s).)
Thanks!
Sam
Rod Speed
> This is for a home in Catawba County, North Carolina....
> We have had a roto-rooter dude run his camera up a terra cotta drain
> pipe and saw that there is a break about 15-ft inside the concrete
> basement floor from the wall. They quoted $2400 to jack hammer the
> slab (inside a basement) and replace the pipe. That does not include
> pouring new concrete and finishing the floor.
> We have called a few other plumbers but one couldn't do it and
> the others either won't quote or won't even show up to look at it.
> Question is.... I heard that there was a way to insert a PVC pipe or tube
> inside just smaller than the original pipe which would allow normal drainage.
Yes, thats being done progressively thru my part of town, in the main sewer line.
> It would not seal against the wall and not seal the hole, but
> roots (the current problem) would not penetrate the PVC.
Its quite feasible to put plastic fittings on the ends of the inserted
pipe so you get what is a fully sealed system again. Thats what
they do with the main sewer line, they replace each of the points
where the sewer line from the houses meets the main sewer line.
Surprisingly elegant system.
> It would be slightly smaller diameter, but should be plenty big for what
> the drain pipe now carries (no washer or other high flow appliances, etc.)
And the plastic has a better flow than the pipe it replaces anyway.
> Anyway.... long story.... but ...
> 1 - Is $2400 reasonable?
> 2 - Is PVC insert an alternative? cheaper?
Yep.
> 3 - Is there a general rule of thumb for when to repair an old line
> vs installing a new one? (This house has been added on and the
> new line would be a more direct route that the old one(s).)
Sure, but its going to cost quite a bit more to do that.
tb...@bellsouth.net
City line for my house was 'fixed' with a liner of some sort.
It was described to me as a double walled hose blown into place.
It has been working for three years with no trouble.
T
Vic Smith
Be real careful here, and get at least 2 more sewer guys to look at
it. I think it's unusual for these tiles to break under a slab, but
haven't done this kind of work for a while, and wasn't an expert when
I did. Usually it's tree roots that break tiles.
Nasty if it's a sewer drain and 6' under the slab.
Regarding the PVC fix, I don't know except you have to get it in
there. Maybe they can dig outside instead of breaking the floor.
--Vic
Frank Gilliland
<USkFi.3962$Ot1.3745@trnddc07>:
<snip>
>Question is.... I heard that there was a way to insert a PVC pipe or
>tube inside just smaller than the original pipe which would allow
>normal drainage. It would not seal against the wall and not seal the
>hole, but roots (the current problem) would not penetrate the PVC.
Roots won't penetrate the PVC but they will penetrate the seams, as
well as any other cracks in the old pipe. So if such a fix is even
possible it would only be temporary, maybe good for a few months. Just
bite the bullet and get it fixed the right way. You might also want to
consider running a new pipe outside the slab -- it might be cheaper.
the_blogologist
> This is for a home in Catawba County, North Carolina....
>
> We have had a roto-rooter dude run his camera up a terra cotta drain pipe
> and saw that there is a break about 15-ft inside the concrete basement
> floor from the wall. They quoted $2400 to jack hammer the slab (inside a
> basement)
You can rent jack hammers, you know?
> and replace the pipe. That does not include pouring new
> concrete and finishing the floor.
If the break is incased in concrete..... they simpliy use whatever means
to fish out the broken pieces to let the concrete act as the pipe. In
fact it'd be very difficult to break the concrete away from the pipe to
allow a better connection. I haven't done this solution, but i've heard
of it being done (not on the internet).
If it's burried under the slab and collapsed then i don't know.... Seems
like as long as you knew where the break was, seems like that'd be easy
enough for a do it yourself the same way the plumbers planned. At least
it's in the basement instead of the living room :-/ You might consider
adding something like a sink or washing machine connection at the same
time.
> We have called a few other plumbers but one couldn't do it and the others
> either won't quote or won't even show up to look at it.
>
> Question is.... I heard that there was a way to insert a PVC pipe or tube
> inside just smaller than the original pipe which would allow normal
> drainage. It would not seal against the wall and not seal the hole, but
> roots (the current problem) would not penetrate the PVC.
If you've got roots growing 15 foot under your house you need to cut
down that tree. Otherwise the roots will attack most any fix you do.
> It would be slightly smaller diameter, but should be plenty big for what
> the drain pipe now carries (no washer or other high flow appliances, etc.)
Tons of more better info on google then you'd likely get from us noobs
:-/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22sewer+line%22+repair&btnG=Google
+Search
> Anyway.... long story.... but ...
>
> 1 - Is $2400 reasonable?
Sounds too high to me, but plumbers are always too high, which is what
keeps places like Home Depot in business.
> 2 - Is PVC insert an alternative? cheaper? 3 -
> Is there a general rule of thumb for when to repair an old line vs
> installing a new one? (This house has been added on and the new line
> would be a more direct route that the old one(s).)
That'd be a judgement call -- How much work and $$ it is doing the extra
work VS how questionable it looks and how much work i'd be doing it all
over again :-/
> Thanks!
>
> Sam
Neon John
<SammyBi...@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote:
>This is for a home in Catawba County, North Carolina....
>
>We have had a roto-rooter dude run his camera up a terra cotta drain pipe and saw that there is a break about 15-ft inside the concrete basement floor from the wall. They quoted $2400 to jack hammer the slab (inside a basement) and replace the pipe. That does not include pouring new concrete and finishing the floor.
>
>1 - Is $2400 reasonable?
Depends on where you live. Big city? Quite reasonable. Out in the country? (you
DID post this to misc.rural because you live in the country, right?) perhaps a bit
high. Having done that type of job, I'd not do it for $2400.
>2 - Is PVC insert an alternative? cheaper?
No idea. YOu'd have to ask the contractor who specializes in that technology.
>3 - Is there a general rule of thumb for when to repair an old line vs installing a new one? (This house has been added on and the new line would be a more direct route that the old one(s).)
Once terra cotta starts crumbling, it will continue to do so. As long as I was
ripping up concrete and digging trenches, I'd go ahead and replace it all. Little
incremental cost.
Since this isn't rocket science, you might try finding a handyman who will work with
you and the two of you do the work. That's the way I did my under-slab line
replacement. Rent an electric breaker hammer and/or diamond saw to cut the concrete
and then dig it out by hand. It'll take a little longer and will require a little
more work but it can be very cheaply done. If the handyman works for $10/hr CIF
(cash in fist, off the books), it might take two days to do it. 16 hours * $10 is
$160. Double that if you pay him $20. Figure a couple hundred bux for renting the
tools and $50-75 for the new PVC drain. Lots cheaper.
FWIW, My experience has been that Roto-rooter is always the most expensive and least
competent turd hustler in the area. They're my choice of last resort.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made with meat?
Rudy
>>We have had a roto-rooter dude run his camera up a terra cotta drain pipe
>>and saw that there is a break about 15-ft inside the concrete basement
>>floor from the wall. They quoted $2400 to jack hammer the slab (inside a
>>basement) and replace the pipe. That does not include pouring new
>>concrete and finishing the floor.<<
A friend and I did this job. He rented an electric jack hammer for the
day..under a hundred bucks...we made a few cuts (angle grinder..cheap $
15.00 diamond blade )along the floor as a guide, then broke out the floor
along the lines.. The breaking out/It took about two hours and this was to
re-lay about 25-30 feet of pipe replacing old cast iron with black ABS. How
much pipe/concrete cuts to replace it all?
Since its terracotta/clay pipe, it isnt s sewer drain so In your case you're
only looking at a small area where the break is..perhaps a hole 2-3 ft in
diameter. if you just then dig down the foot or two.. it may just be laid
in sand. Then you clean out the broken pieces and replace with new tile or
black ABS pipe..I'd go with the ABS and take out all the clay tiles I could
access .
Backfill and tamp down dirt firmly, get a few bags of ready mix blend
concrete (1/2 cu ft per bag) from Home Depot, mix in a wheelbarrow, lay er
down and trowel flat.. None of this is hard, just time consuming.
With the roots, you may keep having this same problem though. I'd get rid
of the tree.
Gary Heston
Rudy <NoS...@no-onehome.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>Since its terracotta/clay pipe, it isnt s sewer drain [ ... ]
Bad assumption. Clay pipe was used for sewer runs for many years;
one of the recent This Old House shows (Boston three-story) had
a clay pipe drain that had settled and been penetrated by roots.
Gary
--
Gary Heston ghe...@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
Yoko Onos' former driver tried to extort $2M from her, threating to
"release embarassing recordings...". What, he has a copy of her album?
Big_Jake
What do old houses have for sewer lines in your area??? All of ours
are 6" clay pipe.
I otherwise agree with your post. It is a pretty easy project with
some grunt labor. Here we would use PVC, since ABS isn't allowed by
code here. I am in WI.
JK
Joe
Search for trenchless pipe repair... On google of course.
Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R
Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm
Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg
hal...@aol.com
if so quick CHEAP SOLUTION:)
As long as you look at the roots as a maintence issue.
if once roto rooted is line ok for awhile??
just dump rock salt soution down sink or whatever feeds the effected
line about every 3 months. it will not effect the tree bushes or
whatever but will kill the roots. the most common time for root growth
is early spring. the trees are getting ready for leaf growth and go
into over drive underground.
I dump a 25 pund bag into my basement washtub every few months and mix
wih hot water.
it really works long term been over 10 years. just mix salt with hot
water till most dissolves, then go out fpor day so root salt exposure
is maximized.
25 pounds of rock salt about 3 bucks, a little more for softner salt.
let me know this works.
quick easy cheap solution
Sammy bin Snoozin
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message news:1189966144.6...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Sammy bin Snoozin
See sketch under this subject at...
alt.binaries.crafts.pictures
Neon John
The Popular Mechanics Home Handyman book series that my folks got me back in the 60s
has a solution that works very well, requires practically no work, is dirt-cheap and
is septic tank friendly.
Get a piece of cheese cloth perhaps 18" square, three wood dowels or something
similar about a yard long, a pound of calcium chloride (concrete antifreeze) and a
pound of copper sulfate (garden supplies). Copper is death on roots even in small
quantities. If your area has high humidity, use more copper sulfate and less calcium
chloride.
Mix the two chemicals, put the mix on the cheese cloth, pick up the corners and make
a hobo-pack-style bundle. Tie some string around the top. Use some string to bind
the tops of the three sticks together and spread out the other ends to make a small
tripod. Tie the bag of chemicals to the sticks so that it hangs down in the center.
Position this assembly over a floor drain or other opening that drains to the sewer.
Calcium chloride is highly hygroscopic. It will attract enough water from the air to
liquefy itself and the copper sulfate, forming a saturated solution. The solution
will drip from the bag, a drop every few hours, and enter the drain where the copper
will nuke the tree roots.
How well this works is illustrated by my cabin here. There's a huge hickory tree,
perhaps 75 ft tall, growing directly over my field line. Been there for 40+ years.
Never even a hint of root problems or septic system problems. I started doing this
treatment shortly after we built the place back in the early 70s. It's so humid here
that I use about a 1:3 mix of CaCl to CuSO4.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
*fas-cism* (fash'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a
dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the
merging of state and business leadership, together
with belligerent nationalism. -- The American Heritage Dictionary, 1983
Sammy bin Snoozin
"Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message news:cg5re3hqjhf2nf5vp...@4ax.com...
Neon John
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:13:44 GMT, "Sammy bin Snoozin"
<SammyBi...@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote:
>Thanks, John! Reckon that would work on monkey grass roots too?
>
>
>"Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message news:cg5re3hqjhf2nf5vp...@4ax.com...
>> Ugghhh, too much work and potentially harmful to a septic tank.
>>
>> The Popular Mechanics Home Handyman book series that my folks got me back in the 60s
>> has a solution that works very well, requires practically no work, is dirt-cheap and
>> is septic tank friendly.
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Risk: $20 hooker, year old condom.
Sammy bin Snoozin
"Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message news:on01f3l8o88msilab...@4ax.com...
Rudy Canoza
> What if I flooded the drain with Roundup? Reckon that would kill anything that had roots in the drain?
You're a fuckwit. Glyphosate, the active ingredient of
Roundup, is absorbed through the foliage.
What a stupid jackhole...
Rod Speed
> Sammy bin Snoozin wrote
>> What if I flooded the drain with Roundup? Reckon that would kill anything that had roots in the drain?
> You're a fuckwit.
We'll see...
> Glyphosate, the active ingredient of
> Roundup, is absorbed through the foliage.
It does however do a fine job of killing trees when you pour some of the undiluted
roundup on the cut off trunk, so its more complicated than that in practice.
> What a stupid jackhole...
You're sposed to have -- before your sig, child.
Rudy Canoza
> "...child."
Proof you're a rube.
Rod Speed
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
Joe
Your name fits you... RUDE-y...
Not everyone is chemical knowledgeable. Take yer valium.
--
Myal
> What if I flooded the drain with Roundup? Reckon that would kill anything that had roots in the drain?
>
not a good idea
Sammy bin Snoozin
Does anyone know a plumbing company in Catawab Co area who can install a pipe-liner without breaking up the concrete, etc.
If so, I would apprec a posting or sending me an email to the yahoo address given here.
Thanks!
Sam
Sammy bin Snoozin
> Sammy bin Snoozin wrote:
> > What if I flooded the drain with Roundup? Reckon that would kill anything that had roots in the drain?
>
> Roundup, is absorbed through the foliage....
What about plugging the outlet and flooding it with copper sulfate solution and letting it stand overnight? Is there anything else what might seal the inside of a pipe without having to break it open?
Sammy bin Snoozin
"Sammy bin Snoozin" <SammyBi...@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote in message news:ahWIi.43$kk4.33@trnddc08...
PS -- We've got small, minor leaks at 2 places -- after seeing the video up the pipe, I don't think it's enough to break up the concrete, replace the whole pipe - big mess & cost.
Sammy bin Snoozin
"Terryc" <newsfour...@woa.com.au> wrote in message news:fcv732$vpk$4...@aioe.org...
> Sammy bin Snoozin wrote:
> > What if I flooded the drain with Roundup? Reckon that would kill anything that had roots in the drain?
>
>
> we have rootox tabs here that you can drop in the bowl and flush last
> thing at night or in morning (if everyone goes to work).
>
> P.S. if roundup works, it should kil the whole plant. roundup can be
> less effective in high concentrations as too hardttake up.err, you are
> going to have to block the other end to flood it.
Yes, I was thinking of making a batch of diluted concentrate, putting an elbow pointing up at the outlet and pouring in the inlet until it fills the pipe. I've got about 20 feet of 4-inch pipe -- 12 gallons should be plenty. The cost of any root killer or coating materials would be minor compared to the cost of breaking up the concrete, replacing, refilling, etc.
Mark M.
with each other. Plumbing contractors don't have that arrangement so you don't
need one from your county just your state.
Mark M.
Neon John
I have no evidence whether the CuSO4 will kill grass roots or not. It probably will.
The problem with all these schemes is that the roots remain in place. They may rot
out in a few years but meanwhile you still have the problem. About the only thing
you can do is call the Roto-Rooter man and have them mechanically removed. THEN
figure out a treatment to keep 'em out. That's what the CuSO4 does, kills the root
leaders as they penetrate.
Roto-rooting (actually I'd find a local contractor and avoid the very high prices of
the actual Roto-Rooter company) isn't that expensive. If you have a clean-out port,
probably no more than $100. Get the roots removed and THEN start deploying
counter-measures against future invasion.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Steve Barker LT
sprayed on the green part.
s
"Sammy bin Snoozin" <SammyBi...@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:psWIi.46$kk4.16@trnddc08...
Rod Speed
> roundup kills by smothering the plant from the top.
Its more complicated than that.
> It only works when sprayed on the green part.
That is just plain wrong. If you have a tree which continues to
sprout from the stump when its cut off close to the ground, you
can kill whats in the ground by pouring neat roundup on the stump.
> Sammy bin Snoozin <SammyBi...@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote Terryc <newsfour...@woa.com.au> wrote
The Real Bev
> Steve Barker LT <ichase...@not.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> roundup kills by smothering the plant from the top.
>
> Its more complicated than that.
>
>> It only works when sprayed on the green part.
>
> That is just plain wrong. If you have a tree which continues to
> sprout from the stump when its cut off close to the ground, you
> can kill whats in the ground by pouring neat roundup on the stump.
Spraying is easier. It takes a Chinese elm a while to stop sending up
sprouts, but eventually it gives up. A tree guy said to drill 1/2" holes
into the stump, fill them with salt and keep them damp. That didn't work
the first time on a big CE stump, but we tried it on a smaller one and
haven't yet seen the results.
BTW, Terro makes good ant-killer. Put the little tray in the path, watch
the little buggers gobble it joyfully and take it home to share, and in a
couple of days they're all gone. Kind of expensive, though. It seems to be
borax dissolved in something sticky -- maybe corn syrup or something.
Before I tried the Terro I sprayed Windex around the sink (they apparently
like to march around the edge) -- no need to worry about poisoning the
dishes. It worked a little bit, but new ones came back the next day.
OTOH, if you can find the nest you can saturate it with Ortho Home Defense,
which doesn't stink and isn't really all that expensive.
--
Cheers, Bev
---------------------------------------------------
I have no idea what you're talking about, so here's
a bunny with a pancake on his head:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc15.jpg
Rod Speed
>>> roundup kills by smothering the plant from the top.
>> Its more complicated than that.
>>> It only works when sprayed on the green part.
>> That is just plain wrong. If you have a tree which continues to
>> sprout from the stump when its cut off close to the ground, you
>> can kill whats in the ground by pouring neat roundup on the stump.
> Spraying is easier.
No it isnt when you have already cut the tree off at the ground
and have a problem with it resprouting. Its much easier to just
pour some neat roundup onto the stump than to do anything else.
> It takes a Chinese elm a while to stop sending up sprouts, but eventually it gives up.
It doesnt take any time at all to stop when you pour neat roundup
onto the stump, nothing ever grows again from the stump.
> A tree guy said to drill 1/2" holes into the stump, fill them with salt and keep them damp.
Hell of a lot easier to just pour neat roundup onto the cut.
> That didn't work the first time on a big CE stump, but we tried it on a smaller one and haven't yet seen the results.
What's the point in farting around when roundup works so well ?
> BTW, Terro makes good ant-killer.
Now you tell me. I had a hell of a job getting rid of some big ants.
They appeared to just laugh at most of what I used and I couldnt
get chlordane anymore locally, although it is approved for sale again.
Thats what I used 30 years ago and it worked very well indeed then.
I used the last of the chlordane I had left over from then on the ants
nest and its not too clear whether it was that or some permethrin
that I used after the other stuff had no effect that got rid of them.
> Put the little tray in the path, watch the little buggers gobble it joyfully and take it home to share, and in a
> couple of days they're all gone.
I've now got a problem with some very small ants in the
kitchen, but cant see where they have their nest outside,
too much of a jungle of kikuyu where it most likely is.
I've been meaning to setup a decent honeypot for them
and check where the line of ants goes outside the house,
but havent gotten around to doing that so far.
> Kind of expensive, though.
Yeah, thats why I only used the permethrin eventually, tad expensive.
> It seems to be borax dissolved in something sticky -- maybe corn syrup or something.
OK, I'll see if I can find anything like that here, particularly if I
cant find the nest to use the permethrin on. Should save me
having to find the nest and it should be fine to put some of
that stuff outside on the base of the wall etc, its sheltered
from the rain by the 6' eaves on that side of the house.
Not that its raining anyway, back to drought again after a bit of winter rain for a while.
> Before I tried the Terro I sprayed Windex around the sink (they apparently like to march around the edge) -- no need
> to worry about poisoning the dishes. It worked a little bit, but new ones came back the next day.
Yeah, I currently get the buggers pouring all over the leftovers from dinner.
I never bother to do anything more than put the plates with the scraps on
the bench against the wall after dinner, crape it off and put it in the dishwasher
while waiting for the toast to cook for breakfast next day. They love meats scraps.
> OTOH, if you can find the nest you can saturate it with Ortho Home
> Defense, which doesn't stink and isn't really all that expensive.
We dont have any of those brands here, I'll check the active ingredients.
Sammy bin Snoozin
"Mark M." <ma...@techz.net> wrote in message news:46f45c4e$0$18979$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Yeah, thanks. The problem is finding one that can install an internal sleeve inside the old pipe. This is a short run and I'm trying to avoid breaking up concrete.
Greggie Gibson
news:5ljnmeF...@mid.individual.net:
>> A tree guy said to drill 1/2" holes into the stump, fill them with
>> salt and keep them damp.
>
> Hell of a lot easier to just pour neat roundup onto the cut.
>
and of course roundup is so much more frugal than salt.
Ann
> roundup kills by smothering the plant from the top. It only works when
> sprayed on the green part.
That's just plain wrong. Google on: roundup "fresh stump"
Ann
> Steve Barker LT <ichase...@not.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> roundup kills by smothering the plant from the top.
>
> Its more complicated than that.
>
>> It only works when sprayed on the green part.
>
> That is just plain wrong. If you have a tree which continues to
> sprout from the stump when its cut off close to the ground, you
> can kill whats in the ground by pouring neat roundup on the stump.
Multiflora rose and Autumn Olive are problems in my rural area and I've
successfully used 15-20% Roundup, painted on fresh cut stumps.
<...>
Rod Speed
Yeah, I must admit I never bothered to try anything other than neat roundup,
my stump was quite small, about 2-3" across, so it was easier to just pour
a bit from the roundup container onto the cut surface of the stump.
Likely your 15-20% Roundup would have worked just as well.
Ann
I was mostly confirming that stump treatment with Roundup does work. You
did what Monsanto suggests; then again, they're selling the stuff. <g>
The Real Bev
> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>> BTW, Terro makes good ant-killer.
>
> Now you tell me. I had a hell of a job getting rid of some big ants. They
> appeared to just laugh at most of what I used and I couldnt get chlordane
> anymore locally, although it is approved for sale again. Thats what I
> used 30 years ago and it worked very well indeed then.
Red or black? The big ants around here are generally red and have a nasty bite.
> I used the last of the chlordane I had left over from then on the ants
> nest and its not too clear whether it was that or some permethrin that I
> used after the other stuff had no effect that got rid of them.
>
>> Put the little tray in the path, watch the little buggers gobble it
>> joyfully and take it home to share, and in a couple of days they're all
>> gone.
>
> I've now got a problem with some very small ants in the kitchen, but cant
> see where they have their nest outside, too much of a jungle of kikuyu
> where it most likely is.
You have kikuyu grass too? It's supposedly classified as a noxious weed,
but it's what my "lawn" is. Reasonably tough, but looks shitty all the
time. I suppose it would look better if I took better care of it...
> I've been meaning to setup a decent honeypot for them and check where the
> line of ants goes outside the house, but havent gotten around to doing
> that so far.
>
>> Kind of expensive, though.
>
> Yeah, thats why I only used the permethrin eventually, tad expensive.
>
>> It seems to be borax dissolved in something sticky -- maybe corn syrup
>> or something.
>
> OK, I'll see if I can find anything like that here, particularly if I
> cant find the nest to use the permethrin on. Should save me having to
> find the nest and it should be fine to put some of that stuff outside on
> the base of the wall etc, its sheltered from the rain by the 6' eaves on
> that side of the house.
The little traps are well-thought out. You cut a little slit in the bottom
for the ants to enter, but the top is completely covered against rain, etc.
Won't help if water runs into it, though.
> Not that its raining anyway, back to drought again after a bit of winter
> rain for a while.
First rain of the season here. Nice change.
>> Before I tried the Terro I sprayed Windex around the sink (they
>> apparently like to march around the edge) -- no need to worry about
>> poisoning the dishes. It worked a little bit, but new ones came back
>> the next day.
>
> Yeah, I currently get the buggers pouring all over the leftovers from
> dinner. I never bother to do anything more than put the plates with the
> scraps on the bench against the wall after dinner, crape it off and put
> it in the dishwasher while waiting for the toast to cook for breakfast
> next day. They love meats scraps.
I've heard that there are grease ants and sugar ants, but they all look the
same to me. Sometimes they're just after water and sometimes, as when they
march around the rim of the bathtub, they seem to be interested in marching
for its own sake.
>> OTOH, if you can find the nest you can saturate it with Ortho Home
>> Defense, which doesn't stink and isn't really all that expensive.
>
> We dont have any of those brands here, I'll check the active ingredients.
Ortho is reliable and has lots of fertlizer/herbicide/insecticide products.
--
Cheers,
Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why is it so hot and what am I doing in this handbasket?
Joe
>> appeared to just laugh at most of what I used and I couldnt get chlordane
>> anymore locally, although it is approved for sale again. Thats what I
>> used 30 years ago and it worked very well indeed then.
Uh... I still have an OLD bottle of Chlordane.. Are you saying it is
commercially available again?!? In the USA?
Sammy bin Snoozin
"Ann" <nntp...@epix.net> wrote in message news:pan.2007.09.21....@epix.net...
> herbicide that's taken up through woody plant roots, like Garlon 3A. I
> haven't read all the posts in this thread, but what's your objection to
> using copper sulfate? That's the standard treatment for tree roots in
> sewer line problems.
Copper sulfate sounds good to me. There are no tree roots - it's mostly monkey grass. (I know -- pull up the monkey grass. It's a long story, but not possible to pull it up right now.)
Steve Barker LT
(not)
s
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5lji91F...@mid.individual.net...
Steve Barker LT
I don't have to worry about stumps. I use diesel fuel.
s
"Ann" <nntp...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.09.22....@epix.net...
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> BTW, Terro makes good ant-killer.
>> Now you tell me. I had a hell of a job getting rid of some big ants.
>> They appeared to just laugh at most of what I used and I couldnt get
>> chlordane anymore locally, although it is approved for sale again.
>> Thats what I used 30 years ago and it worked very well indeed then.
> Red or black?
Black. They were most around the letterbox so were
a real pain in summer when I dont wear shoes at all.
> The big ants around here are generally red and have a nasty bite.
The bite of mine wasnt too bad.
>> I used the last of the chlordane I had left over from then on the ants nest and its not too clear whether it was that
>> or some permethrin that I used after the other stuff had no effect that got rid of them.
>>> Put the little tray in the path, watch the little buggers gobble it joyfully and take it home to share, and in a
>>> couple of days they're all gone.
>> I've now got a problem with some very small ants in the kitchen, but cant see where they have their nest outside, too
>> much of a jungle of kikuyu where it most likely is.
> You have kikuyu grass too?
I dont, the neighbours do.
> It's supposedly classified as a noxious weed,
Not here, its about the most commonly used here.
Bloody stuff is jungle pretending to be grass tho.
> but it's what my "lawn" is. Reasonably tough,
Yeah, I dont even water that area any more.
> but looks shitty all the time. I suppose it would look better if I took better care of it...
Yeah, it doesnt look to bad if you water it and cut it.
>> I've been meaning to setup a decent honeypot for them and check where the line of ants goes outside the house, but
>> havent gotten around to doing that so far.
>>> Kind of expensive, though.
>> Yeah, thats why I only used the permethrin eventually, tad expensive.
Probably better to say that its quite a bit more expensive
than the cheapest stuff, so I tried the cheapest stuff first.
>>> It seems to be borax dissolved in something sticky -- maybe corn syrup or something.
>> OK, I'll see if I can find anything like that here,
Their web site claims its unique to them. Shouldnt be hard to
make some using borax and some form of heavy syrup tho.
Not clear if they will like it tho, I'll try some syrup first. They
love meat scraps and I can certainly put some borax on scraps.
>> particularly if I cant find the nest to use the permethrin on. Should save me having to find the nest and it should
>> be fine to put some of that stuff outside on the base of the wall etc, its sheltered from the rain by the 6' eaves on
>> that side of the house.
> The little traps are well-thought out.
Yeah, looks well designed from the web site.
> You cut a little slit in the bottom for the ants to enter, but the top is completely covered against
> rain, etc. Won't help if water runs into it, though.
>> Not that its raining anyway, back to drought again after a bit of winter rain for a while.
> First rain of the season here. Nice change.
>>> Before I tried the Terro I sprayed Windex around the sink (they apparently like to march around the edge) -- no need
>>> to worry about poisoning the dishes. It worked a little bit, but new ones came back the next day.
>> Yeah, I currently get the buggers pouring all over the leftovers from dinner. I never bother to do anything more than
>> put the plates with the scraps on the bench against the wall after dinner, scrape it off and put it in the dishwasher
>> while waiting for the toast to cook for breakfast next day. They love meats scraps.
> I've heard that there are grease ants and sugar ants,
We have things called meat ants, but I thought they were quite big.
> but they all look the same to me. Sometimes they're just after water
Havent noticed any of mine do that.
> and sometimes, as when they march around the rim of the bathtub, they seem to be interested in marching for its own
> sake.
Presumably they are looking around for something to munch on or something.
>>> OTOH, if you can find the nest you can saturate it with Ortho Home
>>> Defense, which doesn't stink and isn't really all that expensive.
>> We dont have any of those brands here, I'll check the active ingredients.
> Ortho is reliable and has lots of fertlizer/herbicide/insecticide products.
Yeah, cant see any listing of the ingredients tho. Presumably its only on the packaging.
Rod Speed
>> Now you tell me. I had a hell of a job getting rid of some big ants. They appeared to just laugh at most of what I
>> used and I couldnt get chlordane anymore locally, although it is approved for sale again.
For use, actually.
>> Thats what I used 30 years ago and it worked very well indeed then.
> Uh... I still have an OLD bottle of Chlordane.. Are you saying it is commercially available again?!?
Dunno, I do know that its approved for use again now.
> In the USA?
Nar, Australia.
And its only approved for very specific use, in piggerys now.
Rod Speed
You'll have to pardon us if we find them a tad more
credible than you and our actual experience in spades.
Steve Barker LT <ichase...@not.yahoo.com> wrote:
Ann
> Whatever you think.
It's not what I "think". It's one of approved uses on the Roundup label..
Steve Barker LT
s
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5llupkF...@mid.individual.net...
Ann
> suit yourselves. But it won't work for the purpose in the OP.
Agreed, which is why I've already posted that Garlon 3A would be a better
choice. It is active and persistent in soil.
Rod Speed
> suit yourselves.
We will.
> But it won't work for the purpose in the OP.
Irrelevant to your stupid pig ignorant claims about how roundup can be used.
Stormin Mormon
handed, but with two hands, the design makes more sense.
Anyone tried those Aim N Flame things from the dollar store? They sure look
convenient.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
.
Steve Barker LT
s
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5lo2pjF...@mid.individual.net...
> Irrelevant to your claims about how roundup can be used.
Rod Speed
> Bringing up pouring it on stumps was irrelevant to the OP.
But completely relevant to YOUR stupid pig ignorant claim about how it works.
Here is your terminal stupidity again.
>>> Steve Barker LT <ichase...@not.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> roundup kills by smothering the plant from the top.
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
dpb
> suit yourselves. But it won't work for the purpose in the OP.
>
an open-ended pipe :) ), the use of Roundup would work quite well on
anything that had roots in the pipe to take it up.
It would be wise to read more on the application label and mode of
action of any herbicide before posting inaccurate information and then
criticizing those who point that out...
--
The Real Bev
> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>
>>> Yeah, I currently get the buggers pouring all over the leftovers from
>>> dinner. I never bother to do anything more than put the plates with
>>> the scraps on the bench against the wall after dinner, scrape it off
>>> and put it in the dishwasher while waiting for the toast to cook for
>>> breakfast next day. They love meats scraps.
>
>> I've heard that there are grease ants and sugar ants,
>
> We have things called meat ants, but I thought they were quite big.
>
>> but they all look the same to me. Sometimes they're just after water
>
> Havent noticed any of mine do that.
>
>> and sometimes, as when they march around the rim of the bathtub, they
>> seem to be interested in marching for its own sake.
>
> Presumably they are looking around for something to munch on or
> something.
>
>>>> OTOH, if you can find the nest you can saturate it with Ortho Home
>>>> Defense, which doesn't stink and isn't really all that expensive.
>
>>> We dont have any of those brands here, I'll check the active
>>> ingredients.
>
>> Ortho is reliable and has lots of fertlizer/herbicide/insecticide
>> products.
>
> Yeah, cant see any listing of the ingredients tho. Presumably its only on
> the packaging.
They don't seem to have ordinary Home Defense any more (green plastic
1-gallon bottle) but are pushing Home Defense MAX. The MSDS says it's .05%
bifenthrin, whatever that is. The green stuff I have says it's exactly the
same thing. Ortho also gives an MSDS for the regular stuff in a smaller
bottle which contains d-Limonene, gamma lactone, and peach aldehyde instead
of bifenthrin.
Core dump complete.
--
Cheers,
Bev
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
"Only wimps use tape backup; *real* men just upload their
important stuff on FTP, and let the rest of the world
mirror it ;)" -- Linus Torvalds
Steve Barker LT
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5lp527F...@mid.individual.net...
Rod Speed
> And that is what it does.
Pity it ALSO clearly kills trees when you pour a concentrated solution or
neat roundup on the freshly cut stump, and monsanto says so very explicitly.
You were just plain wrong when you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that
it wont work like that and are so stupid that you dont just shut your stupid
mouth and let everyone forget your pig ignorant terminal stupidity.
Steve Barker LT
mis-information. I am able to keep it civil even when faced with wrongness.
I'm done with this thread as of this period.
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5lrm5hF...@mid.individual.net...
>
Stormin Mormon
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
.
"Steve Barker LT" <ichase...@not.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Kb6dnYe8UdtntmTb...@giganews.com...
: Please let it be documented that _I_ did not call YOU names when you
: >
:
:
Rod Speed
> Please let it be documented that _I_ did not call YOU names
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
You're so stupid that you cant even manage to read and comprehend
what monsanto, the manufacturer, says about how roundup works.
> when you posted mis-information.
You havent established that I posted any mis information whatever.
Just CLAIMED that, a different matter entirely.
And some of us actually have enough of a clue to be able to read and
comprehend what monsanto, the manufacturer, says about how roundup
works and in what situations it works very well, and have actually tried
what monsanto recommends when killing trees that sucker from a cut
off stump and found that it works as advertised too.
> I am able to keep it civil even when faced with wrongness.
You clearly wouldnt know what wrongness was if it bit you on your lard arse.
> I'm done with this thread as of this period.
You should have done that right from the start when your nose was
rubbed in your terminal stupidity. Thats the only thing that actually
works, keep your stupid trap shut so that those reading the thread
forget about your flaunted pig ignorance as quickly as possible.
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
Stormin Mormon
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
.
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5lt2bgF...@mid.individual.net...
:
:
Rod Speed
> Would you please take it to private email.
Go and fuck yourself. No please, thats an order.
We use usenet for a reason, fuckwit.
Sammy bin Snoozin
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:5lt2bgF...@mid.individual.net...
Sammy bin Snoozin
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61##spamblock$$@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:46f95fe3$0$26373$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Sammy bin Snoozin
$3000 - Rotorooter, includes tearing up concrete slab end-to-end, replacing straight run, re-pouring concrete slab and finishing
$2400 - Indept plumber, same as above
$1400 - Indept plumber, same except going out 45 degrees thru wall, bypassing concrete slab, angling back 135 degrees instead of 90 degrees and connecting to existing line, installing new clean-out downstream from existing clean-out.
(Posted sketch of 3rd way at alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking)
The last one makes more sense to me since everything will now be accessible, not being under concrete.
One thing someone could give an opinion on - the slope from the inside connection point to the existing clean-out is about 4-inches for a 20-ft length of drain pipe. Is this enough for a straight run? How about if we do the 135 run, with three 135-deg turns.
Sam
Sammy bin Snoozin
"Sammy bin Snoozin" <SammyBi...@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote in message news:Hz6Oi.3589$44.3299@trnddc04...
||| | ||||| || | ||
"Sammy bin Snoozin" <SammyBi...@REyahooMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:Hz6Oi.3589$44.3299@trnddc04...
building to the clean-out connection, about 20 feet point to point. I'm
going to get one more for bypassing the slab.
$3000 - Rotorooter, includes tearing up concrete slab end-to-end, replacing
straight run, re-pouring concrete slab and finishing
$2400 - Indept plumber, same as above
que significa "indept"? No es en mi diccionario. Significa "independent"?
O inept?
$1400 - Indept plumber, same except going out 45 degrees thru wall,
bypassing concrete slab, angling back 135 degrees instead of 90 degrees and
connecting to existing line, installing new clean-out downstream from
existing clean-out.
Just hire a Mexican, dude.
DT
>One thing someone could give an opinion on - the slope from the inside =
>connection point to the existing clean-out is about 4-inches for a 20-ft =
>length of drain pipe. Is this enough for a straight run?
It's in the ball park, 1/4" drop per foot is standard, which would be 5" for 20
feet. I believe if the pipe is 4" or larger the slope can be less.
--
Dennis
Sammy bin Snoozin
"DT" <dthomp...@wowway.com> wrote in message news:J9adna8UlarJ2ZTa...@wideopenwest.com...
Sammy bin Snoozin
"DanG" <dgri...@7cox.net> wrote in message news:LBcOi.2303$054....@newsfe14.phx...
> I assume you have a 4" main. Your pipe should not exceed 1/4 per
> foot, especially if you have low flush toilets. That amounts to
> 5" per 20' joint. The low flush toilets make 1/8 per foot
> actually a better choice which would be 2 1/2" per joint. Your 4"
> will be right on target.
>
> The 135 feet of run should have between 17 and 34".
>
> --
> ______________________________
> Keep the whole world singing . . . .
> DanG (remove the sevens)
> dgri...@7cox.net
>
>
>
> "||| | ||||| || | ||" <enamorad...@moradodebuscar.com> wrote
> in message news:feb6ag$5h9$1...@registered.motzarella.org...