Compact Flourescent bulbs
Russell Patterson
they seem to last the same length of time as the regular
incandescants. For the extra expense they cost I think I am spending
more.
JR Weiss
Most of them keep on working... I've gotten as much as 3+ years running 24/7 on
a pair of small ones at my garage entrance. I still have some old ones working
fine after 5+ years of intermittent use.
Stay away from Lights of America -- they don't last at all.
Frank
"JR Weiss" <jrweiss98...@remove.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:koWdnUIJjLX7iTrV...@comcast.com...
> "Russell Patterson" <m...@privacy.net> wrote...
>> Is anybody getting the life expectancy out of these new bulbs?
No, not even close to the rated burn time and often burns out before
incandescent. One way to make it last is not to switch it on or off too many
times but than the energy consumption goes up.
To me
>> they seem to last the same length of time as the regular
>> incandescants. For the extra expense they cost I think I am spending
>> more.
>
> Most of them keep on working... I've gotten as much as 3+ years running
> 24/7 on a pair of small ones at my garage entrance. I still have some old
> ones working fine after 5+ years of intermittent use.
>
> Stay away from Lights of America -- they don't last at all.
>
>
Lights of America is crap including their circleline and start up ballast
(transformer).
Twice Retired
"Russell Patterson" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:e64ea4dt2tnceafk8...@4ax.com...
I don't seem to have any problems w/CFL's. More than 80 throughout the house
and 12 outdoors. In over 5 years the only failure was one in the basement
that stays on 24/7. The other one in the basement is still on after more
that 6 years. Some, as in bathrooms, are switched 10-12 times in 24 hours.
Most others are switched up to 6 times per 24 hours.
Energy consumption has been reduced quite a bit, as witnessed by power
bills.
Nearly all are Sylvania branded with maybe 6 G.E. branded.
Russell Patterson
wrote:
One thing I should have mentioned is the bulbs that are not lasting
are on ceiling fans. It could be the vibrations doing them in. Anyone
else seeing the same on ceiling fans?
James
My keep burning out. They either fail completely or else develop
black bands and gets dimmer. I suspect it's because i use the highest
watts they sell. Maybe the low watt ones last longer because they
don't get as hot.
Twice Retired
I have 10 CFL's, 5 per fan, in the family room and 8, 4 per fan, in the bar.
No failures in the 3 years they have been in use.
Jeff
My girlfriend has been running CFL's in her ceiling fan and I have a
couple in mine. In two years, no problems. Could be your fan shakes
more, or you are using cheap CFLs.
I'm all CFL here and I think I've just had one burnout in the last 5
+ years. Stay away from all "dollar" store brands, they are notoriously
bad. I get the ones that are rated 7 years or so (that's at 8hrs/day). T
Jeff
Don Klipstein
My experience is for CFLs to be averaging 4,000-5,000 operating hours
before burnout. Claimed life expectancy is usually 6,000-10,000 hours -
but that is with average runtime of 3 hours per start and 25 degree C (77
F) ambient temperature.
What causes CFLs to sometimes die young:
1. If they are bad brands. In general, CFLs do better if they ahevthe
"Energy Star" logo or if they are one of the "Big 3" major brands
(Philips, Sylvania, GE).
My experience is that Lights of America has a high rate of very
premature failure, although that has caused me to largely avoid them since
2002. They may have improved since.
Also in my experience, $1-$2 CFLs of "dollar store brands" at dollar
stores are absolute stool specimens. My experience with these include:
* Much-above-average rate of premature failure
* Most of the spectacular CFL failures in my experience (burning up
with great smoke output or loud bangs)
* Most of the CFLs malfunctioning in strange ways without
* Mostly having an icy cold bluish "daylight" color
* Some icy cold daylight ones labelled as "soft warm white"
* Significant rate of subpar color rendering properties, especially
with the few that are actually warm white in color
* 100% rate of those with light output claims falling short
2. Frequent on/off duty, such as in motion sensor lights and bathrooms
frequently used for short trips.
3. Overheating - typically in small enclosed fixtures and recessed
downlights, especially with higher wattages. Some CFLs come with
advisories that life will be shortened in ambient temperature above 60
degrees C (140 degrees F). Recessed ceiling fixtures can have ambient
temperature around the ballast housing get that hot with CFLs of wattages
near or over 20 watts.
Philips "Marathon" triple-arch ones are actually specifically rated for
such "heat hellholes" last time I checked, but only for wattages up to
23 watts (what I call "dimmish 100 watt equivalent") and also only for
non-dimmable versions.
Keep in mind that despite being more efficient at producing light than
incandescents, CFLs are also more efficient at producing non-radiant heat
than incandescents. In one experiment I tried, a 42 watt CFL produced
slightly more convected/conducted heat than a 60 watt incandescent. What
CFLs produce less of is infrared - which largely becomes heat in the house
but does so after escaping the light fixture. And CFLs do not survive
heat as well as incandescents do.
4. Where else CFLs largely do not do well:
* Refrigerators (on too little and too short a time to do well, also dim
especially in first minute when at refrigerator temperatures)
* Most closet lights - low ontime makes payback usually anywhere from
slower than a broad market stock index fund to negative as of when it
burns out
Other than that, CFLs have a high rate of doing well!
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Don Klipstein
I have seen some indication of reduced life in ceiling fan fixtures.
However, indications to me are not vibrations but heat. Those
flower-shaped downward lamp openings have some significant heat buildup
in the base regions, and the ballast housings of CFLs used there easily
get awfully warm - and the electronics in those things may succumb to the
heat at a time when the CFL is still young.
It appears to me that CFLs of wattage 18 watts or less should overheat
only mildly in ceiling fan fixtures. However, I did have one 13 watt
Sylvania spiral CFL die young in a ceiling fan fixture - in an apartment
that is usually 80 degrees and where I hardly ever use the fan function.
There are actual ceiling fan CFLs. One part of their design is to have
outer bulbs. This eliminates need to screw a CFL into such a tight area
by holding the easy-to-breal fluorescent tubing of a CFL. This is also
part of a general design for having the fluorescent tubing work over a
wide temperature range. The downside is that in this design the tubing
itself runs hot and the mercury amalgam formulation is optimized for
tubing that hot and depending on the outer bulb to get that hot. The
result of that design is being quite dim when started cold and needing a
minute or two to warm up. CFLs with bare tubing are more mildly dim with
a cold start and take less time to warm up to the (lower) temperature at
which they work well.
The "ceiling fan" CFLs are also 9 watt ones - with light output about
that of "better" 40 watt incandescents.
Of these, my experience includes Sylvania (available at Lowes and a few
supermarkets) and N:Vision (available at Home Depot). My experience is
that the N:Vision has a more pleasant warmer color, while the Sylvania is
whiter while also being more-pink-less-yellow than halogen - often looks
good but that design philosophy can appear "harsh" (at least in my
experience). Other than that, Sylvania is one of the "Big 3" major brands
and N:Vision is not. My experience is that *on average* "Big-3" does
better than others. The other 2 of "Big 3" are Philips and GE.
Keep an eye out for the "Energy Star" logo as an indicator of being more
likely to be a generally good product.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Don Klipstein
James wrote:
In many fixtures CFLs of wattages over 23 watts have a high rate of
overheating.
In small enclosed fixtures, ceiling fan fixtures and recessed ceiling
fixtures, it is common for especially heat-surviving 23 watt CFLs (such as
Philips Marathon of triple arch style as opposed to spiral and then only
non-dimmable, as of last time I checked - I may not be up to date here)
to be the main ones above 18 watts to have a high rate of working well in
such heat-buildup fixtures.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Gary Heston
Depends upon the brand. The cheaper ones (purchase price) will not last
as long as the better-quality (and therefore more expensive) ones.
I have a GE enclosed bulb that's been going for at least ten years 24-7
lighting a front porch. I've pretty much given up on any CFs with light
sensors (on at dusk/off at dawn) or with separate ballasts due to poor
reliability. The sensors or ballasts fail before the second bulb.
Gary
--
Gary Heston ghe...@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
Why is it that these days, the words "What idiot" are so frequently
followed by the words "at Microsoft"?
Chief Thracian
wrote:
>Is anybody getting the life expectancy out of these new bulbs? To me
That's correct. CFL's are not only a financial ripoff, they are also
highly toxic, due to the mercury released when broken. Imagine how
many hotels, apt. buildings etc. are now diffused w/mercury particles
via heating and air conditioner ducts, carpets, and so on. Don't think
for a moment that all or most CFL breakage is properly cleaned
up...especially by low paid illegal immigrant workers.
--
The Final Testament
http://www.gay-bible.org
h
"Chief Thracian" <chief_t...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:48a86c9c...@amsterdam.newsgroups-download.com...
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 13:41:05 -0400, Russell Patterson <m...@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Is anybody getting the life expectancy out of these new bulbs? To me
>>they seem to last the same length of time as the regular
>>incandescants. For the extra expense they cost I think I am spending
>>more.
>
> That's correct. CFL's are not only a financial ripoff
???They cost 3 times as much, but last 6-7 years, as opposed to 6-7 months.
They also use less electricity for the same wattage, so there's a utilities
savings. Also, they put out less heat, so cooling costs are reduced. The
tiny amount of mercury in them is not an issue at all even if you break one,
which is not exactly easy to do. What's the problem?
max
chief_t...@yahoo.com (Chief Thracian) wrote:
you seem pretty well versed in this topic. How much mercury is inside a
CF (say 13 watt) bulb? Are CF bulbs responsible for contaminating
fish from people throwing them in the water? (the bulbs, not the fish)
--
This signature can be appended to your outgoing mesages. Many people include in
their signatures contact information, and perhaps a joke or quotation.
terryc
> Is anybody getting the life expectancy out of these new bulbs?
No, midxed bag.
The best life I've had is some Phillips 100W heavy glass versions (edison
screw) that have been around for a few years and now seem rather dull.
We have all the "labels" for each incandescent thumb tacked inside a
pantry door with the date they were istalled. generlly not ipressed with
the short life (less than a year).
I should really takeit to the next step and start docoing this on the web.
terryc
> ???They cost 3 times as much, but last 6-7 years, as opposed to 6-7 months.
OOOOOHHHH, which brand and where do you get them?
I'd be happy with 6-7 months instead og 6-7 weeks.
> They also use less electricity for the same wattage, so there's a utilities
> savings.
Do you have any comparative figures from your globes.
Did you measure Power Factor?
> Also, they put out less heat, so cooling costs are reduced.
But heating bills are increased.
> The tiny amount of mercury in them is not an issue at all even
> if you break one, which is not exactly easy to do.
Have you tried dropping one?
I low how piles of stuff have mercury trace element warnings
attached. I wonder why it is a problem in those products.
h
"terryc" <newssixs...@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.08.18....@woa.com.au...
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:47:06 -0400, h wrote:
>
>
>> ???They cost 3 times as much, but last 6-7 years, as opposed to 6-7
>> months.
>
> OOOOOHHHH, which brand and where do you get them?
> I'd be happy with 6-7 months instead og 6-7 weeks.
>
I've never had a CFL bulb last less than 5 years. I have lots of different
brands (at least a few are GE). All were purchased at either Home Depot or
Walmart. As far as electric savings go, I just look at my bill. It dropped
dramatically when we switched out all the bulbs.
terryc
> I've never had a CFL bulb last less than 5 years. I have lots of different
> brands (at least a few are GE). All were purchased at either Home Depot or
> Walmart. As far as electric savings go, I just look at my bill. It dropped
> dramatically when we switched out all the bulbs.
Weird and totally divorced from my reality, but different country.
They do't make that much difference to our bill, but we have OP hotwater,
refridgerator, freezer, stove oven and some electric heaters and fans on
our electricty bill.
Don Klipstein
>On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:47:06 -0400, h wrote:
>
>
>> ???They cost 3 times as much, but last 6-7 years, as opposed to 6-7 months.
>
>OOOOOHHHH, which brand and where do you get them?
>I'd be happy with 6-7 months instead og 6-7 weeks.
In my experience:
Sylvania: About 80% lasting over 2 years, and most of mine still
working. 1 infant failure in a ceiling fan fixture, 1 dying at about
3,000-4,000 operating hours in a small enclosed ceiling fixture.
Philips: Among the ones I track well, generally achieving 5,000-plus
operating hours life. Most that had continuous duty achieved over 10,000
operating hours.
N:Vision: I have 7 in use, 5 of them in use for 15 months, and none of
them have died.
Westinghouse: I had 3 in use in my home for a little over 2.5 years
before I left them behind in a move. 1 of them died most of the way
through Year 2.
I lived in an apartment building that had its hallways lit with those
24/7. A majority survived 2 years.
>> They also use less electricity for the same wattage, so there's a
>>utilities savings.
>
>Do you have any comparative figures from your globes.
>Did you measure Power Factor?
Power factor has very little effect on actual power consumption. Low
power factor means that you have a lot of "non-real amps" unrelated to
watts but requiring wiring to handle them.
>> Also, they put out less heat, so cooling costs are reduced.
>But heating bills are increased.
Since resistive electric heat is usually the most expensive way to go,
total energy bill during heating season has any mobility being downward
from implementation of more energy-efficient lighting.
>> The tiny amount of mercury in them is not an issue at all even
>> if you break one, which is not exactly easy to do.
>
>Have you tried dropping one?
>I low how piles of stuff have mercury trace element warnings
>attached. I wonder why it is a problem in those products.
Sounds to me like government mandates to me, along the lines of how a
bazillion items are "known to the State of California" to cause cancer.
Back when fluorescent lamps had around 10 times as much mercury as they
do now but had been the main choice for schools, office buildings and
hospitals for at least a couple decades, and it was not a big deal when
one broke. Heck, in the 1970's and 1980's they did not order evacuations
or call in people wearing moon suits when a mercury thermometer broke!
However, CFLs with bare tubing as opposed to having outer bulbs do break
more easily than incandescents. It is generally advised for ones with
bare tubing to be screwed/unscrewed by holding the ballast housing rather
than the tubing in order to avoid cracking the tubing.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Don Klipstein
>On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 23:42:22 +0000 (UTC), d...@manx.misty.com (Don
>Klipstein) wrote:
>
>> What causes CFLs to sometimes die young:
>>
>>1. If they are bad brands. In general, CFLs do better if they ahevthe
>>"Energy Star" logo or if they are one of the "Big 3" major brands
>>(Philips, Sylvania, GE).
>>
>> My experience is that Lights of America has a high rate of very
>>premature failure, although that has caused me to largely avoid them since
>>2002. They may have improved since.
>>
>> Also in my experience, $1-$2 CFLs of "dollar store brands" at dollar
>>stores are absolute stool specimens. My experience with these include:
>
>While I don't agree with some of your writing, I think you did us all a
>service with an overall well written post. Thank you.
>
>I have only a few addendums/refutations:
>
>1. I agree with you regardng brands. I've had a lot of good luck with GE.
>
>2. Again, I agree. Lights of America flat out suck. I would not take them,
>even if they were free. Twice bitten, thrice shy.
>
>3. I understand what you mean about the $1 light bulbs, but have to say
>that I picked up 2 cases of GOOD bulbs on a special promotion at a hardware
>store. I bought 2 cases of 25 bulbs of GE on sale for $1 per bulb, and
>still have 42 bullbs left. Enought for another 20 years, I'm sure.
I have yet to complain about getting for $1-$2 GE ones or ones that
hardware stores would sell, such as the "Westpointe" "brand" or the $10
6-pack sometimes promo-ed at Home Depot.
What I consider to be the outright stool specimens are ones of "brands"
typically sold in dollar stores as opposed to brands/"brands" typically
sold in stores other than dollar stores.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
h
We have all the same stuff, except air conditioners instead of heaters.
Changing out all the bulbs to CFLs made a big difference in the bill. Now if
they could make a CFL option for my iron, that would be really great, since
it's on most of the day and it takes a LOT of juice.
Dave
> We have all the same stuff, except air conditioners instead of heaters.
> Changing out all the bulbs to CFLs made a big difference in the bill. Now
if
> they could make a CFL option for my iron, that would be really great,
since
> it's on most of the day and it takes a LOT of juice.
>
>
Do they still make irons? I haven't seen one in about twenty years or so...
:) -Dave
Don Klipstein
They still make them.
A little over 2 years ago I bought one, besides the one I had for about
15 years for smoothing clothes. Someone suggested that I try one of those
boat-shaped things for soldering of SMT circuit boards, after the
components are stuck on with solder paste.
He succeeded in pep-talking me into making SMT circuit boards, but I had
better luck with hand-soldering flea-size components. That required
getting good at painting the tip of a fingernail with rubber cement,
wearing the strongest reading glasses available over my bifocals, a 15
watt soldering iron with a fine pointy tip, and a will to *make this
work*!
So the boat-shaped heating devices I only use for occaisional smoothing
of a few clothes and rarely a paper object with sentimental value to
someone close to me that requires de-creasing.
As of even a couple months ago, Target still had (as best as I can
remember) maybe 7-10 models among maybe 2-3 brands.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Chief Thracian
>you seem pretty well versed in this topic. How much mercury is inside a
>CF (say 13 watt) bulb? Are CF bulbs responsible for contaminating
>fish from people throwing them in the water? (the bulbs, not the fish)
Not yet, since their new technology. But just wait a few years, when
the majority of CFLs are improperly discarded into landfills and
rivers/lakes/ocean.
I've had three CFLs break so far, due to bumps/knocking over desk
lamps by either myself (when cleaning a room), or by a visitor. I live
in a large apt. building where the owner gets the cheapest CFLs to
light the lobby, hallways, cellar, etc. They burn out within a few
months, so replacement is frequent. Add up all the other cheap
landlords across the nation, and you got a BIG problem.
What about homes w/children and pets running about?
Also, cheap landlords hire cheap help. Do you trust they'll take
proper care when cleaning up and disposing of broken CFLs? All those
unhappily unpaid janitors, housecleaners, etc. across our unfair
nations: do you think THEY will properly clean up/dispose shattered
CFLs? We have a very poor recycling system in the USA...so most folks
will NOT bring broken or burnt out CFLs to the appropriate centers.
Instead, they'll be dump into the usual garbage, where they'll then
proceed to landfills, where the mercury will eventually leach into our
water system, and vapors into the air we breathe.
--http://www.epa.gov/mercury/spills/
Fluorescent light bulbs contain a very small amount of mercury sealed
within the glass tubing. EPA recommends the following clean-up and
disposal below. Please also read the information on this page about
what never to do with a mercury spill.
Before Clean-up: Air Out the Room
* Have people and pets leave the room, and don't let anyone walk
through the breakage area on their way out.
* Open a window and leave the room for 15 minutes or more.
* Shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system,
if you have one.
Clean-Up Steps for Hard Surfaces
* Carefully scoop up glass pieces and powder using stiff paper or
cardboard and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a
canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
* Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining
small glass fragments and powder.
* Wipe the area clean with damp paper towels or disposable wet
wipes. Place towels in the glass jar or plastic bag.
* Do not use a vacuum or broom to clean up the broken bulb on hard
surfaces.
Clean-up Steps for Carpeting or Rug
* Carefully pick up glass fragments and place them in a glass jar
with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
* Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining
small glass fragments and powder.
* If vacuuming is needed after all visible materials are removed,
vacuum the area where the bulb was broken.
* Remove the vacuum bag (or empty and wipe the canister), and put
the bag or vacuum debris in a sealed plastic bag.
Clean-up Steps for Clothing, Bedding and Other Soft Materials
* If clothing or bedding materials come in direct contact with
broken glass or mercury-containing powder from inside the bulb that
may stick to the fabric, the clothing or bedding should be thrown
away. Do not wash such clothing or bedding because mercury fragments
in the clothing may contaminate the machine and/or pollute sewage.
* You can, however, wash clothing or other materials that have
been exposed to the mercury vapor from a broken CFL, such as the
clothing you are wearing when you cleaned up the broken CFL, as long
as that clothing has not come into direct contact with the materials
from the broken bulb.
* If shoes come into direct contact with broken glass or
mercury-containing powder from the bulb, wipe them off with damp paper
towels or disposable wet wipes. Place the towels or wipes in a glass
jar or plastic bag for disposal.
Disposal of Clean-up Materials
* Immediately place all clean-up materials outdoors in a trash
container or protected area for the next normal trash pickup.
* Wash your hands after disposing of the jars or plastic bags
containing clean-up materials.
* Check with your local or state government about disposal
requirements in your specific area. Some states do not allow such
trash disposal. Instead, they require that broken and unbroken
mercury-containing bulbs be taken to a local recycling center.
Future Cleaning of Carpeting or Rug: Air Out the Room During and After
Vacuuming
* The next several times you vacuum, shut off the central
forced-air heating/air conditioning system and open a window before
vacuuming.
* Keep the central heating/air conditioning system shut off and
the window open for at least 15 minutes after vacuuming is completed.
--http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/05/ask_treehugger_14.php
Briefly, EPA recommends that (1) you immediately open windows to
reduce mercury concentrations inside your home; (2) you do not touch
the spilled mercury; (3) you clean up the broken CFL glass carefully
and immediately (but not with your hands or a vacuum cleaner), and (4)
you wipe the affected area with a paper towel to remove all glass
fragments and mercury. EPA further recommends that you place the paper
towel and glass fragments in a sealed plastic bag and bring the sealed
bag to your local Household Hazardous Waste (HHW)
Collection Site.
I've decided to eliminate all CFLs from my humble abode, and return to
incandescent. Until LEDs go down in price to a reasonable level. I
only use 40 watts anyway. In searching for more info about CFL
hazards, I learned that IKEA sells 'em with a plastic bubble around
'em...now that makes sense. See:
http://www.notmartha.org/archives/2008/03/11/what-to-do-about-a-broken-cfl-learned-the-hard-way/
Other comments from that site:
This is awful. I fell asleep with the lights on the other night and
woke up to a loud pop around 4am.... realized it was the new bulb -
opened my bedrooom door, prayed I'd live till morning and fell back
asleep. Well, I'm here now & hope there's no permanent damage. I'm not
really enamored with these bulbs.
--
This is pretty much why I refuse to buy CFLs. Everyone is focused on
how much less energy they use, but the disposal and cleanup issues
have not been adequately addressed. How many people even realize
you're not supposed to throw CFLs in the garbage, or know where to
take them to dispose of them, or (most importantly) are willing to go
out of their way to do so? How many people even realize they contain
mercury? To my mind that's not an acceptable tradeoff for the energy
savings.
--
Our environmental health and safety department (I am a grad student in
the biological sciences) just went through a huge effort to replace
and dispose of all the mercury thermometers in our school and the
associated hospital. At least in our lab, we've had the same set of
thermometers for years and years (so it's not like a
disposable/consumable item) and a thermometer has only broken once in
the last ten years or so, and he who broke it knew exactly how to deal
with the mercury danger. Now, all over the place, people are buying
these much more fragile, disposable/consumable items, with nothing
like the training we must undergo to be using those mercury
thermometers. Baffling.
{I do understand that there is much more mercury in a thermometer than
in these bulbs, but I'd like to know how the math works out when you
factor in the mass effect of how many more lightbulbs will be bought
and broken or not disposed of correctly)
--
I was considering switching, but between the dog and child, I think
I'll stick with my regular lightbulbs. If I have to consult the EPA to
clean up when I break one (and I dropped a lightbulb the other day
when I was cleaning out the cabinet I store them in), I'll pass.
--
I've been reading on this subject and I'm now sufficiently freaked
about CF bulbs and proper disposal. I don't feel good about buying
something that needs to be disposed of as hazardous waste.
--
Thanks for the story. My daughter hit a bulb with her basketball and
brought the broken piece up to me. I just cleaned the rest up, not
knowing anything about the mecury or potential hazards. Both my kids
were in the immediate area and I did not have them leave. After all I
have read, given she touched the debris, I will get her the blood or
urine test for mecury contamination. Horrible trade off in order to
use these bulbs. I did not dispose of it properly either, so I have
contaminated others and the earth. Nothing was on the package about
any of this. A friend sent me a news clips. Exposure was three weeks
ago!
--
Chief Thracian
Thracian) wrote:
> All those unhappily unpaid janitors, housecleaners, etc.
Correction: "underpaid".
Chief Thracian
Thracian) wrote:
> All those unhappily unpaid janitors, housecleaners, etc.
Correction: "underpaid".
h
"Dave" <no...@nohow.not> wrote in message
news:g8avu6$ti0$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
Of course they do :)
In addition to a regular iron I'm also using a professional steamer for at
least an hour a day.
Rod Speed
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:45:10 -0500, max <beta...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> you seem pretty well versed in this topic. How much mercury is
>> inside a CF (say 13 watt) bulb? Are CF bulbs responsible for
>> contaminating fish from people throwing them in the water? (the
>> bulbs, not the fish)
>
> Not yet, since their new technology. But just wait a few years, when
> the majority of CFLs are improperly discarded into landfills and
> rivers/lakes/ocean.
>
> I've had three CFLs break so far, due to bumps/knocking over desk
> lamps by either myself (when cleaning a room), or by a visitor. I live
> in a large apt. building where the owner gets the cheapest CFLs to
> light the lobby, hallways, cellar, etc. They burn out within a few
> months, so replacement is frequent. Add up all the other cheap
> landlords across the nation, and you got a BIG problem.
> What about homes w/children and pets running about?
No worse than we saw with the much older long tube fluoros.
> Also, cheap landlords hire cheap help. Do you trust they'll take
> proper care when cleaning up and disposing of broken CFLs?
Dont need to when the much long tube fluoros werent a problem.
> All those unhappily unpaid janitors, housecleaners, etc. across our unfair
> nations: do you think THEY will properly clean up/dispose shattered CFLs?
No worse than we saw with the much older long tube fluoros.
> We have a very poor recycling system in the USA...so most folks
> will NOT bring broken or burnt out CFLs to the appropriate centers.
> Instead, they'll be dump into the usual garbage, where they'll then
> proceed to landfills, where the mercury will eventually leach into
> our water system, and vapors into the air we breathe.
No worse than we saw with the much older long tube fluoros.
> --http://www.epa.gov/mercury/spills/
> Fluorescent light bulbs contain a very small amount of mercury sealed
> within the glass tubing. EPA recommends the following clean-up and
> disposal below. Please also read the information on this page about
> what never to do with a mercury spill.
Usual mindless silly stuff.
Twice Retired
Chief Thracian related to Julia Butterfly Hill?
Jeff
The EPA is essentially broken. Just like almost every other government
agency has been in the past 7 years.
Energy Star estimates that if all CFLs were landfilled they would add
just .1% to the US human contribution of mercury.
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/promotions/change_light/downloads/Fact_Sheet_Mercury.pdf
A 13 W CFL averages 4 mG, with some newer models down to 1.4 milligrams.
Eating fish is a bigger problem.
What you should learn form this is to avoid cheap Chinese non rated
bulbs. It's the same issue that we have with so much else non regulated
Chinese goods. Remember the pet food and pharmaceutical deaths?
>
Jeff
<snip>
h
> What you should learn form this is to avoid cheap Chinese non rated
> bulbs. It's the same issue that we have with so much else non regulated
> Chinese goods. Remember the pet food and pharmaceutical deaths?
>>
Oh yeah. My surviving cat will be on meds for the rest of her life.
Jeff
The unfortunate thing for you was that you had no indication that you
were getting a product that came from a country with weak oversite and
regulation.
It's an unfortunate thing that we even have to look out for that.
With the CFLs, look for the Energy Star as I do not believe that any of
the dangerous Chinese CFLs have that.
Sometimes buying junk carries an acceptable risk, sometimes it
doesn't. I don't think the possibility that your light bulb will catch
fire is acceptable. What kind of government do we have that does nothing
to remove these products from stores?
Jeff
Chief Thracian
>add just .1% to the US human contribution of mercury.
Izzat so? Yes, Energy Star claims that "CFLs contain a very small
amount of mercury...an average of 4 milligrams".
But the following site disagrees:
http://www.nlrlamp.com/householdpak.html
"Over 300 million compact fluorescent bulbs, CFLs, were sold in the US
last year. A CFL can contain upwards of 5mg of mercury per bulb. Here
is the math: 5mg of mercury x 300,000,000 CFLs = 3306 lbs of mercury
that can be going into the trash and eventually into our environment!
This mercury is an extreme health risk to humans and animals.
News article after news article have posed the same question: How &
where to recycle CFLs? There are very few sustainable recycling
solutions out there for consumers and businesses. The EPA has released
guidelines of what to do when a CFL breaks and does offer a few
resources for recycling to residents. Most of these are local town
hazardous waste days. The number of CFLs in use are on the rise and as
a result the issue of recycling is becoming paramount. What good is it
to "go green" and change to energy saving CFLs if they are just going
to be thrown out into our landfills at end of life?"
(That site BTW, offers a recycling method for CFLs. Go to that page
for more info.)
>What you should learn form this is to avoid cheap Chinese non rated
>bulbs
Yes, and the majority of families on a tight budget will readily
comply by your suggestion.
h
"Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
news:MY6dnROCAvvtNzTV...@earthlink.com...
>h wrote:
>>> What you should learn form this is to avoid cheap Chinese non rated
>>> bulbs. It's the same issue that we have with so much else non regulated
>>> Chinese goods. Remember the pet food and pharmaceutical deaths?
>>
>> Oh yeah. My surviving cat will be on meds for the rest of her life.
> I'm sorry to hear that.
>
> The unfortunate thing for you was that you had no indication that you were
> getting a product that came from a country with weak oversite and
> regulation.
>
my cats with high-quality, safe food. I've since gone to Purina, since they
say (if you can believe them) that they produce everything themselves.
Chief Thracian
"A leading British migraine body has claimed eco-bulbs worsen the
symptoms of migraines, epilepsy and the auto-immune disease lupus."
Read more here:
http://tinyurl.com/CFLmigraine
Chief Thracian
>Energy Star estimates that if all CFLs were landfilled they would add
>just .1% to the US human contribution of mercury.
Wait, there's more:
--
http://www.akdart.com/cfl.html
The articles listed below (and many more to be added later) set forth
clear arguments against the use of Compact Fluorescent Bulbs, or CFLs,
for a number of very practical reasons, both technical and political.
The big political push toward their mandatory adoption is based on the
belief that the bulbs use less electricity to provide the same light
output....
Fluorescent lighting advocates claim that electricity consumption will
be reduced overnight when people switch to fluorescent lamps; however,
with that in mind, people will naturally be more inclined to leave
their lights on a lot more, since the new bulbs are so efficient.
That offsets the energy savings considerably....
Proponents of fluorescent lights are quick to point out that
incandescent bulbs waste 90 percent of their input power as heat.
CFLs are not 100% efficient, either, but somehow that is never
mentioned. (Of course the light from a light bulb also turns into
heat when it hits the walls and the floor, bringing the "wasted power"
total to 100 percent, unless some of the light goes out the window,
but I digress.) A hair dryer uses a lot more power than a light bulb.
Some consume 1800 watts, and 100% of that power is "wasted" as heat.
Sometimes heat is a beneficial byproduct.
Here's the way I look at it: In the winter, that "wasted" power
contributes to the heat in the house, which makes the heater run less.
I have an all-electric house, and I figure it costs nothing to run a
hair dryer or a computer or an electric blanket in the winter, because
all those things are supplementing the output of my central electric
heater....
I can tell you from my own experience that "9 year" CFLs don't last
nine years. A more accurate figure would be nine months. Notice that
the packaging says they will last 10,000 hours. Simple arithmetic
tells us that's only a little more than one year of continuous use.
(Since the life of a CFL is shortened by turning it on and off,
continuous use results in the longest life.) Incandescent bulbs have
been known to operate for decades: The world record is over 100
years.
If your CFL dies prematurely, the manufacturer will blame you for its
failure. (Must be something wrong with your wiring. You must have
turned it on and off too much.) Even if the bulb is under warranty,
and you send it back to the manufacturer for a replacement, you will
spend more on shipping than the price of a new bulb. Those shipping
costs come out of your pocket, and they offset any "energy savings"
you might have realized....
How much are you really saving? Ordinary incandescent bulbs cost less
than 19¢ apiece. When coupled with the fact that CFLs don't last very
long, it's easy to see that your "energy saving" amounts to
approximately zero when you switch to fluorescent bulbs....
CFLs are marketed with a number of half-baked promises. The packaging
may tell you, for example, that a CFL bulb that uses 23 watts and has
the light output "equivalent" of a 100-watt bulb. On the contrary,
the light is not "equivalent" by any means. Fluorescent bulbs emit a
cold, harsh and unnatural glow, along with an audible hum and a small
amount of ultraviolet light. They don't work in cold weather, and
some of them take two or three minutes to reach full brightness. Most
of all, they are far more expensive than incandescent bulbs, and the
alleged savings are never realized because the bulbs do not last as
long as the manufacturers claim. So yes, except for about a dozen
drawbacks, fluorescent lights are fine, and if the price of
electricity triples, or if I'm forced to run on generator power, or if
I want my home to look like a warehouse, I'll buy more of them.
Don Klipstein
Thracian wrote in part:
>On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:45:10 -0500, max <beta...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>you seem pretty well versed in this topic. How much mercury is inside a
>>CF (say 13 watt) bulb? Are CF bulbs responsible for contaminating
>>fish from people throwing them in the water? (the bulbs, not the fish)
>
>Not yet, since their new technology. But just wait a few years, when
>the majority of CFLs are improperly discarded into landfills and
>rivers/lakes/ocean.
On average, a CFL avoids more mercury emissions into the environment
than it has - at least in the USA on a nationwide basis. About half of
USA's electricity comes from coal.
>I've had three CFLs break so far, due to bumps/knocking over desk
>lamps by either myself (when cleaning a room), or by a visitor. I live
>in a large apt. building where the owner gets the cheapest CFLs to
>light the lobby, hallways, cellar, etc. They burn out within a few
>months, so replacement is frequent. Add up all the other cheap
>landlords across the nation, and you got a BIG problem.
In my apartment complex, a majority of CFLs installed by the landlord
last at least 2 years and I have yet to see any fail to last at least 11
months - running 24/7.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Chief Thracian
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,268747,00.html
Sunday , April 29, 2007
By Steven Milloy
How much money does it take to screw in a compact fluorescent
lightbulb? About $4.28 for the bulb and labor — unless you break the
bulb. Then you, like Brandy Bridges of Ellsworth, Maine, could be
looking at a cost of about $2,004.28, which doesn’t include the costs
of frayed nerves and risks to health.
Sound crazy? Perhaps no more than the stampede to ban the incandescent
light bulb in favor of compact fluorescent lightbulbs (CFLs) — a move
already either adopted or being considered in California, Canada, the
European Union and Australia.
According to an April 12 article in The Ellsworth American, Bridges
had the misfortune of breaking a CFL during installation in her
daughter’s bedroom: It dropped and shattered on the carpeted floor.
Aware that CFLs contain potentially hazardous substances, Bridges
called her local Home Depot for advice. The store told her that the
CFL contained mercury and that she should call the Poison Control
hotline, which in turn directed her to the Maine Department of
Environmental Protection.
The DEP sent a specialist to Bridges’ house to test for mercury
contamination. The specialist found mercury levels in the bedroom in
excess of six times the state’s “safe” level for mercury contamination
of 300 billionths of a gram per cubic meter.
The DEP specialist recommended that Bridges call an environmental
cleanup firm, which reportedly gave her a “low-ball” estimate of
$2,000 to clean up the room. The room then was sealed off with plastic
and Bridges began “gathering finances” to pay for the $2,000 cleaning.
Reportedly, her insurance company wouldn’t cover the cleanup costs
because mercury is a pollutant.
Given that the replacement of incandescent bulbs with CFLs in the
average U.S. household is touted as saving as much as $180 annually in
energy costs — and assuming that Bridges doesn’t break any more CFLs —
it will take her more than 11 years to recoup the cleanup costs in the
form of energy savings.
Even if you don’t go for the full-scale panic of the $2,000 cleanup,
the do-it-yourself approach is still somewhat intense, if not
downright alarming.
Consider the procedure offered by the Maine DEP’s Web page entitled,
“What if I accidentally break a fluorescent bulb in my home?”
Don’t vacuum bulb debris because a standard vacuum will spread
mercury-containing dust throughout the area and contaminate the
vacuum. Ventilate the area and reduce the temperature. Wear protective
equipment like goggles, coveralls and a dust mask.
Collect the waste material into an airtight container. Pat the area
with the sticky side of tape. Wipe with a damp cloth. Finally, check
with local authorities to see where hazardous waste may be properly
disposed.
The only step the Maine DEP left off was the final one: Hope that you
did a good enough cleanup so that you, your family and pets aren’t
poisoned by any mercury inadvertently dispersed or missed.
This, of course, assumes that people are even aware that breaking CFLs
entails special cleanup procedures.
The potentially hazardous CFL is being pushed by companies such as
Wal-Mart, which wants to sell 100 million CFLs at five times the cost
of incandescent bulbs during 2007, and, surprisingly,
environmentalists.
It’s quite odd that environmentalists have embraced the CFL, which
cannot now and will not in the foreseeable future be made without
mercury. Given that there are about 4 billion lightbulb sockets in
American households, we’re looking at the possibility of creating
billions of hazardous waste sites such as the Bridges’ bedroom.
Usually, environmentalists want hazardous materials out of, not in,
our homes.
These are the same people who go berserk at the thought of mercury
being emitted from power plants and the presence of mercury in
seafood. Environmentalists have whipped up so much fear of mercury
among the public that many local governments have even launched
mercury thermometer exchange programs.
As the activist group Environmental Defense urges us to buy CFLs, it
defines mercury on a separate part of its Web site as a “highly toxic
heavy metal that can cause brain damage and learning disabilities in
fetuses and children” and as “one of the most poisonous forms of
pollution.”
Greenpeace also recommends CFLs while simultaneously bemoaning
contamination caused by a mercury thermometer factory in India. But
where are mercury-containing CFLs made? Not in the U.S., under strict
environmental regulation. CFLs are made in India and China, where
environmental standards are virtually non-existent.
And let’s not forget about the regulatory nightmare known as the
Superfund law, the EPA regulatory program best known for requiring
expensive but often needless cleanup of toxic waste sites, along with
endless litigation over such cleanups.
We’ll eventually be disposing billions and billions of CFL mercury
bombs. Much of the mercury from discarded and/or broken CFLs is bound
to make its way into the environment and give rise to Superfund
liability, which in the past has needlessly disrupted many lives, cost
tens of billions of dollars and sent many businesses into bankruptcy.
As each CFL contains 5 milligrams of mercury, at the Maine “safety”
standard of 300 nanograms per cubic meter, it would take 16,667 cubic
meters of soil to “safely” contain all the mercury in a single CFL.
While CFL vendors and environmentalists tout the energy cost savings
of CFLs, they conveniently omit the personal and societal costs of CFL
disposal.
Not only are CFLs much more expensive than incandescent bulbs and emit
light that many regard as inferior to incandescent bulbs, they pose a
nightmare if they break and require special disposal procedures.
Should government (egged on by environmentalists and the Wal-Marts of
the world) impose on us such higher costs, denial of lighting choice,
disposal hassles and breakage risks in the name of saving a few
dollars every year on the electric bill?
Steven Milloy publishes JunkScience.com and CSRWatch.com. He is a junk
science expert, and advocate of free enterprise and an adjunct scholar
at the Competitive Enterprise Institute.
Chief Thracian
>Energy Star estimates that if all CFLs were landfilled they would add
>just .1% to the US human contribution of mercury.
Still more (all references below garnered from a more extensive list
at http://www.akdart.com/cfl.html):
Fluorescent lights are green, until they burn out. People like to
complain about the new fluorescent light bulbs. The light isn't warm
and friendly, the spiral bulbs don't fit their fixtures, and they
don't last as long as claimed. But the biggest gripe I've heard is
how hard it is to unload these bulbs, and that you have to pay for the
privilege. Incandescent light bulbs are easy: buy, burn and toss.
But not so with compact fluorescent lights (CFLs).
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/homegarden/17981589.html
--
Looming Lightbulb Liability: The speeding freight train carrying
toxic waste liability for makers, sellers and purchasers of compact
fluorescent lightbulbs, or CFLs, was only faintly audible in the
distance last spring when this column first warned of it. Now we're
beginning to see that environmentalist-stoked train speed toward its
victims, whom President Bush and Congress just finished tying to the
tracks.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,331689,00.html
--
Green boondoggle: Greens loves CFLs because they use less energy than
incandescent bulbs and last for years. OK, so they cause eye strain,
and most can't be used with dimmer switches and the ones that can
flicker annoyingly, and they've been known to short out and give off
toxic fumes, and they're potential fire hazards, and they contain
mercury. But overall, the greens say, CFLs are good soldiers in the
war against global warming. And you don't want to be for global
warming, do you?
http://www.rep-am.com/articles/2008/04/05/opinion/330742.txt#blogcomments
--
To revel in the glow of choice is to court glare of the eco-correct.
Oh, I wish I liked fluorescents — they bring your electricity bill
down to $1.95 per year, you get to shake a fist at OPEC, and those
curly pig-tail tubes look cool. But I detest the light.
http://www.startribune.com/local/17072411.html
--
NYT Surprisingly Attacks Climate Friendly Light Bulb. There's
potentially a larger issue here that these bulbs, and the lack of
foresight regarding them, is emblematic of: capriciously concocted
and implemented solutions often cause more problems than they solve.
This is one of the cornerstones of anti-climate alarmism. In fact,
the voices around the world begging governments not to overreact to
the hysterical prognostications of folks like Gore do so in an attempt
to prevent their nations from enacting policies that not only won't
cure this mythical malady, but also might result in potentially more
devastating and costly problems down the road.
--
Mercury leaks found as new bulbs break. Compact fluorescent lamps —
those spiral, energy-efficient bulbs popular as a device to combat
global warming — can pose a small risk of mercury poisoning to
infants, young children, and pregnant women if they break, two reports
concluded yesterday [2/25/2008]. … For the Maine study, researchers
shattered 65 compact fluorescents to test air quality and cleanup
methods.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/02/26/mercury_leaks_found_as_new_bulbs_break/
(BTW, CFLs can contain up to THIRTY milligrams of mercury!)
--
Mercury in Energy-Saving Bulbs Worries Scientists. Mercury is
poisonous, but it's also a necessary part of most compact fluorescent
bulbs, the kind that environmentalists and some governments are
pushing as a way to cut energy use. With an estimated 150 million
CFLs sold in the United States in 2006 and with Wal-Mart alone hoping
to sell 100 million this year, some scientists and environmentalists
are worried that most are ending up in garbage dumps.
http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/41126/story.htm
--
Please Don't Mandate Compact Flourescent Lamps! There are a number of
reports of fires caused by CFLs near the end of their life. Consumers
have been advised to discard CFLs if they notice browning at the base
of the bulb. However, this reduced the useful life of the bulb
(therefore increasing the cost) and most consumers will not inspect
bulbs that are operating normally. CFLs produce ultraviolet light,
which is converted to visible light by a phosphor coating. Some
ultraviolet light is released from the bulb, but little information is
being made available about the amount of UV light released by a CFL.
CFLs produce less light as they age. CFLs are not well-suited for use
in areas where they are turned on and off frequently.
--
Environmentally friendly light bulbs 'can damage your skin', doctors
warn. New energy-saving bulbs produce a more intense light which can
cause eruptions of existing skin problems, like eczema, and even lead
to skin cancer, they claim. The revelation comes after health experts
warned the fluorescent bulbs, which are to become compulsory in homes
within four years, could trigger migraines and cause dizziness and
discomfort to people with epilepsy.
--
Warning About Energy-Efficient Light Bulbs. The EPA, the government's
own environment watchdog agency, is stepping up a campaign about
saving energy safely. That's because the energy-efficient fluorescent
light bulbs, or CFLs, contain mercury — a small amount. Here's what
you have to do if you break one of these new bulbs. First, open a
window and leave the room for 15 minutes. …
The Editor says...
There goes all the energy you saved — out the window! In addition,
turning a CFL on and off frequently shortens its life, which is why
the government's Energy Star program suggests you leave them on for at
least 15 minutes at a time.* Of course, if you only needed the light
on for a minute, there goes the environmental benefit down the drain.
And sure, CFLs contain mercury, but you can drive across town to the
Ikea store to have them recycled. Of course, if you have to travel
across the county to get to the Ikea store, that's a lot of driving,
and away goes the environmental benefit again.
http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=4d7009d6-7213-43f0-9f30-5c73190b06cd
--
Costly savings. In response to the urging that we all replace our
incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescent bulbs — and thus save the
planet — I have in recent months been changing from incandescent to
fluorescent bulbs. My experiences have not been what I expected. So
far, after only months (in one case weeks), four of the CFL bulbs have
burned out. I e-mailed the manufacturer and got a response
admonishing me that, among other things, my wiring might be the cause
of the premature failure. I had no problem with the wiring
previously.
http://www.dailypress.com/news/opinion/dp-ed_thurltrs_12203dec20,0,1114281.story
--
Light Bulb Lunacy. How much money does it take to screw in a compact
fluorescent lightbulb? About $4.28 for the bulb and labor — unless
you break the bulb. Then you, like Brandy Bridges of Ellsworth,
Maine, could be looking at a cost of about $2,004.28, which doesn't
include the costs of frayed nerves and risks to health.
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,268747,00.html
--
NBC Promotes Toxic Chinese Light Bulbs. The Alliance for Climate
Protection, which is part of Al Gore's Live Earth campaign, tells
people that by using compact fluorescent light (CFL) bulbs, they can
save energy, save money and live longer. But they fail to mention
that the bulbs are made in communist China and are potentially
hazardous to human health.
http://www.conservativetruth.org/article.php?id=4008&PHPSESSID=a855a1421ec438e36ed4a132d7b1413f
--
Fluorescent Bulbs Must Be Disposed Of Properly. While experts agree
compact fluorescents are safe to use, and the EPA even recommends them
over traditional bulbs, the bulbs contain about 5 milligrams of the
heavy metal -- roughly equivalent to the tip of a ball point pen.
Last February, California state legislators concerned about soil and
groundwater contamination passed a law requiring mandatory recycling
of all fluorescent bulbs. That means you can no longer just throw
them away when they burn out or break.
http://www.kfmb.com/features/consumer_alert/story.php?id=81759
--
Don Klipstein
Thracian wrote:
>>Energy Star estimates that if all CFLs were landfilled they would
>>add just .1% to the US human contribution of mercury.
>
>Izzat so? Yes, Energy Star claims that "CFLs contain a very small
>amount of mercury...an average of 4 milligrams".
>
>But the following site disagrees:
>
>http://www.nlrlamp.com/householdpak.html
>
>"Over 300 million compact fluorescent bulbs, CFLs, were sold in the US
>last year. A CFL can contain upwards of 5mg of mercury per bulb.
That is high side, not average. I would go for 4 mg, making your 3306
pound figure 2645 pounds.
> Here is the math: 5mg of mercury x 300,000,000 CFLs = 3306 lbs of
>mercury that can be going into the trash and eventually into our
>environment! This mercury is an extreme health risk to humans and
>animals.
Now some more math: It appears to me that a fairly "average" CFL saves
50 watts and nowadays lasts 5,000 hours in household use. That is 250
kilowatt-hours.
Multiply that by 300 million and that is 7.5 E10 KWH.
Average mercury emission in the USA from electricity generation is
.0117 mg/KWH. This is considering that only about half of USA's
electricity generation is from coal. The figure is .0234 milligrams per
KWH generated by burning coal.
.0117 * 7.5E10 /453590 is 1934 pounds.
I have seen mostly worse figures, but recently .0117 or .012 milligram
per KWH has been making the rounds and the Energy Star website is using
.012 milligram per KWH.
If you replace a 60 watt incandescent with a 13 watt CFL having 4 mg of
mercury, the CFL reduces mercury pollution if it lasts more than 7,274
hours even if it is crunched by a trash truck on the way to a landfill.
For replacing a 75 watt incandescent with a 19 watt CFL, the figure is
6,105 hours.
For replacing a 100 watt incandescent with a 23 watt CFL, the figure
is 4,440 hours.
For replacing a 100 watt incandescent with a 26 watt CFL, the figure
is 4,620 hours.
(Use 23 watt instead of 26 watt CFL to replace 100W incandescent when
you can. My experience tells me that CFLs of wattage over 23 watts
are generally less reliable, mostly by overheating more easily. Higher
wattages should be plenty fine and OK when operated base-down in table
lamps and similarly favorable lamps however.)
The figures get better when one can shop for CFLs on basis of mercury
content. However, the market has shown little favorability to ones with
especially low mercury content - sadly, people with mercury considerations
have shown "zero tolerance" rather than rewarding production of ones with
mercury content pushing the lower limits of what will work.
CFLs have been made with as little as 1.4 mg of mercury - probably with
some compromise in life expectancy before they dim from mercury being lost
to binding to parts of the bulb. One with 1.4 mg of mercury can easily
reduce net mercury pollution once it lasts past 2,000-3,000 operating
hours.
But no, people with mercury concerns foolishly like to buy incandescents
rather than low-mercury CFLs.
>News article after news article have posed the same question: How &
>where to recycle CFLs? There are very few sustainable recycling
>solutions out there for consumers and businesses.
Most schools, hospitals and larger office buildings actually recycle
their fluorescents.
> The EPA has released
>guidelines of what to do when a CFL breaks and does offer a few
>resources for recycling to residents. Most of these are local town
>hazardous waste days.
People should pay attention to those - and stockpile until those days
not only their dead fluorescent lamps, but also dead batteries and
unwanted/expired chemical products.
> The number of CFLs in use are on the rise and as
>a result the issue of recycling is becoming paramount. What good is it
>to "go green" and change to energy saving CFLs if they are just going
>to be thrown out into our landfills at end of life?"
>
>(That site BTW, offers a recycling method for CFLs. Go to that page
>for more info.)
http://www.lamprecycle.org
http://www.earth911.org
>>What you should learn form this is to avoid cheap Chinese non rated
>>bulbs
>
>Yes, and the majority of families on a tight budget will readily
>comply by your suggestion.
Few of the CFLs that I see in use, even in homes, are the non-rated
stool specimens.
Screw-in CFLs normally have:
1. UL listing as "self ballasted lamp". (It is normal for ballastless
lightbulbs to lack UL listing.)
2. FCC "ID" - when the ballast is a high frequency electronic ballast,
which is what is in every spiral CFL I ever saw and about 99% of
all other screw-base CFLs that I have seen so far this decade.
In my experience, all that lack these are sold mainly in dollar stores
and are of "brands" that strike me as "dollar store brands" - such as
Trisonic, Telstar, Sonitech, Fieldbreeze (and over a dozen others that I
have seen only in dollar stores).
It also helps to see the Energy Star logo.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Don Klipstein
>On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 09:45:56 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>>Energy Star estimates that if all CFLs were landfilled they would add
>>just .1% to the US human contribution of mercury.
>
>Wait, there's more:
>
>--
>http://www.akdart.com/cfl.html
>
>The articles listed below (and many more to be added later) set forth
>clear arguments against the use of Compact Fluorescent Bulbs, or CFLs,
>for a number of very practical reasons, both technical and political.
>The big political push toward their mandatory adoption is based on the
>belief that the bulbs use less electricity to provide the same light
>output....
>
>Fluorescent lighting advocates claim that electricity consumption will
>be reduced overnight when people switch to fluorescent lamps; however,
>with that in mind, people will naturally be more inclined to leave
>their lights on a lot more, since the new bulbs are so efficient.
>That offsets the energy savings considerably....
>
>Proponents of fluorescent lights are quick to point out that
>incandescent bulbs waste 90 percent of their input power as heat.
Efficiency of incandescents at converting electrical energy to visible
light (wavelengths 400-700 nm) is mostly 4-7%.
>CFLs are not 100% efficient, either, but somehow that is never mentioned.
They tend to be about 18-20% or so efficient, and their light has
more lumens per radiated watt by having their red spectral content
being mainly wavelengths not close to infrared.
> (Of course the light from a light bulb also turns into
>heat when it hits the walls and the floor, bringing the "wasted power"
>total to 100 percent, unless some of the light goes out the window,
>but I digress.) A hair dryer uses a lot more power than a light bulb.
>Some consume 1800 watts, and 100% of that power is "wasted" as heat.
>Sometimes heat is a beneficial byproduct.
>
>Here's the way I look at it: In the winter, that "wasted" power
>contributes to the heat in the house, which makes the heater run less.
>I have an all-electric house, and I figure it costs nothing to run a
>hair dryer or a computer or an electric blanket in the winter, because
>all those things are supplementing the output of my central electric
>heater....
What about people who have heat pumps or non-electric heat?
What about when it is not heating season?
What about when it is air conditioning season?
>I can tell you from my own experience that "9 year" CFLs don't last
>nine years. A more accurate figure would be nine months.
Not in my experience - few of my CFLs fail to last a year. Most of mine
last at least 3 years.
> Notice that the packaging says they will last 10,000 hours. Simple
>arithmetic tells us that's only a little more than one year of continuous
>use.
>(Since the life of a CFL is shortened by turning it on and off,
>continuous use results in the longest life.)
Rated lifetime is with 3 hours on-time per start.
> Incandescent bulbs have been known to operate for decades: The world
>record is over 100 years.
For one with its filament running so cool that its energy efficiency is
about 1/4-1/3 that of usual incandescents.
>If your CFL dies prematurely, the manufacturer will blame you for its
>failure. (Must be something wrong with your wiring. You must have
>turned it on and off too much.)
Most premature failures of CFLs are from them overheating in fixtures
that build up heat.
> Even if the bulb is under warranty,
>and you send it back to the manufacturer for a replacement, you will
>spend more on shipping than the price of a new bulb. Those shipping
>costs come out of your pocket, and they offset any "energy savings"
>you might have realized....
>
>How much are you really saving? Ordinary incandescent bulbs cost less
>than 19¢ apiece. When coupled with the fact that CFLs don't last very
>long, it's easy to see that your "energy saving" amounts to
>approximately zero when you switch to fluorescent bulbs....
>
>CFLs are marketed with a number of half-baked promises. The packaging
>may tell you, for example, that a CFL bulb that uses 23 watts and has
>the light output "equivalent" of a 100-watt bulb. On the contrary,
>the light is not "equivalent" by any means. Fluorescent bulbs emit a
>cold, harsh and unnatural glow, along with an audible hum and a small
>amount of ultraviolet light.
I don't hear any hum from most of mine. Also, incandescents also emit a
small amount of UV and CFLs do not produce much more - in fact only a
fraction of what is present in same-quantity-of-daylight even after the
daylight has passed through 2 glass windows.
Also, my experience is that spiral CFLs up to 23 watts produce an
impressively warm incandescent-like light unless they have rated color
temperature higher than 2700K. Ones higher than 2700 in my experience are
either "daylight"/"bright white" or the like or Sylvania (Sylvania's
"usual" is 3000K, but slightly less-yellow-more-pink than halogen - can
appear harsh).
So a non-Sylvania spiral up to 23 watts, if it is not "daylight"/"bright
white" or the like, usually looks incandescent-like.
> They don't work in cold weather,
Outdoor types with outer bulbs generally do. Most CFLs are used
indoors.
> and some of them take two or three minutes to reach full brightness.
Some but not most. Ones without outer bulbs tend to be close to full
brightness in half a minute.
>Most of all, they are far more expensive than incandescent bulbs, and the
>alleged savings are never realized because the bulbs do not last as
>long as the manufacturers claim.
At USA national average residential electricity cost of 11 cents per
KWH, a $4 13 watt CFL only has to last 737 hours to cost less than a 19
cent 60 watt incandescent.
> So yes, except for about a dozen
>drawbacks, fluorescent lights are fine, and if the price of
>electricity triples, or if I'm forced to run on generator power, or if
>I want my home to look like a warehouse, I'll buy more of them.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Don Klipstein
>Green globes trigger migraines
>
>"A leading British migraine body has claimed eco-bulbs worsen the
>symptoms of migraines, epilepsy and the auto-immune disease lupus."
>
>Read more here:
>http://tinyurl.com/CFLmigraine
Lupus? How lupus?
As for migraines and epilepsy, modern CFLs with high frequency
electronic ballasts and smoothing capacitors don't have nearly as much
power line frequency flicker as fluorescents with magnetic ballasts do.
Among those of us who went to school or worked in offices in the 1960's,
1970's, 1980's and early 1990's, what percentage came down with
or had worsening of migraines, epilepsy or lupus from the lighting?
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Don Klipstein
>Junk Science: Light Bulb Lunacy
>http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,268747,00.html
>
>Sunday , April 29, 2007
>By Steven Milloy
>
>How much money does it take to screw in a compact fluorescent
>lightbulb? About $4.28 for the bulb and labor — unless you break the
>bulb. Then you, like Brandy Bridges of Ellsworth, Maine, could be
>looking at a cost of about $2,004.28, which doesn’t include the costs
>of frayed nerves and risks to health.
A famously unnecessary expenditure out of uneducated fear.
That last sentence sure sounds extremist to me. For one thing, how is
one going to incur eye injury doing a broken CFL cleanup?
>Collect the waste material into an airtight container.
Like a zip-seal plastic bag.
> Pat the area with the sticky side of tape. Wipe with a damp cloth.
>Finally, check with local authorities to see where hazardous waste may be
>properly disposed.
>
>The only step the Maine DEP left off was the final one: Hope that you
>did a good enough cleanup so that you, your family and pets aren’t
>poisoned by any mercury inadvertently dispersed or missed.
>
>This, of course, assumes that people are even aware that breaking CFLs
>entails special cleanup procedures.
Funny how back when long tube fluorescents had 10 times as much mercury
as CFLs now have, and while mercury thermometers have a hundred or
two times as much mercury as CFLs have, we didn't hear about anyone
getting mercury poisoning from those being broken.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Don Klipstein
Thracian wrote in part:
>On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 09:45:56 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>>Energy Star estimates that if all CFLs were landfilled they would add
>>just .1% to the US human contribution of mercury.
>
>Still more (all references below garnered from a more extensive list
>at http://www.akdart.com/cfl.html):
>
>Fluorescent lights are green, until they burn out. People like to
>complain about the new fluorescent light bulbs. The light isn't warm
>and friendly,
Actually is nice-and-warm from Philips, GE, N:Vision (Home Depot)
and most hardware store spirals up to 23 watts, unless they are "daylight"/
"Bright White" or the like.
> the spiral bulbs don't fit their fixtures,
I don't see that problem happening with spirals up to 23 watts, nor with
most 26 watt ones.
> and they don't last as long as claimed.
They mostly get close enough.
> But the biggest gripe I've heard is how hard it is to unload these
>bulbs, and that you have to pay for the privilege.
In most areas, homeowners and home renters are allowed to toss them in
the trash.
Preferable is to save a dead CFL until the next time one is making a
trip to the municipality's household hazardous waste disposal event -
still free.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
JR Weiss
>
>> and some of them take two or three minutes to reach full brightness.
>
> Some but not most. Ones without outer bulbs tend to be close to full
> brightness in half a minute.
Also, that characteristic can often be "a good thing"! When I turn on my
bathroom light in the morning, I prefer it not be full bright right away. The
CFL fills the bill perfectly!
JR Weiss
>
>> But the biggest gripe I've heard is how hard it is to unload these
>>bulbs, and that you have to pay for the privilege.
>
> www.lamprecycle.org
>
> In most areas, homeowners and home renters are allowed to toss them in
> the trash.
>
> Preferable is to save a dead CFL until the next time one is making a
> trip to the municipality's household hazardous waste disposal event -
> still free.
Around here (Seattle), Home Depot will take CFLs for free, too...
Don Klipstein
Hey, I forgot and you reminded me! This is nationwide!
http://www6.homedepot.com/ecooptions/stage/pdf/cfl_recycle.pdf
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
h
"JR Weiss" <jrweiss98...@remove.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4ZednRwXO_M4SjTV...@comcast.com...
I've had exactly one CFL die in the last 7 years, and that was because the
lamp was knocked over. The bulb didn't break, either, just ceased working.
Jeff
>> Energy Star estimates that if all CFLs were landfilled they would
>> add just .1% to the US human contribution of mercury.
>
> Izzat so? Yes, Energy Star claims that "CFLs contain a very small
> amount of mercury...an average of 4 milligrams".
>
> But the following site disagrees:
>
> http://www.nlrlamp.com/householdpak.html
>
> "Over 300 million compact fluorescent bulbs, CFLs, were sold in the US
> last year. A CFL can contain upwards of 5mg of mercury per bulb. Here
> is the math: 5mg of mercury x 300,000,000 CFLs = 3306 lbs of mercury
> that can be going into the trash and eventually into our environment!
> This mercury is an extreme health risk to humans and animals.
Nicely skewed on several counts. First is that EPA estimates 104
metric *tons* of US mercury emission. Second is that 80% of a CFLs
mercury is fused into the glass at it's end of life and is not
leachable. And of course the average is currently just under 4mg, and
falling, not 5 mg.
>
> News article after news article have posed the same question: How &
> where to recycle CFLs? There are very few sustainable recycling
> solutions out there for consumers and businesses. The EPA has released
> guidelines of what to do when a CFL breaks and does offer a few
> resources for recycling to residents. Most of these are local town
> hazardous waste days. The number of CFLs in use are on the rise and as
> a result the issue of recycling is becoming paramount. What good is it
> to "go green" and change to energy saving CFLs if they are just going
> to be thrown out into our landfills at end of life?"
No small player, Home Depot recycles.
>
> (That site BTW, offers a recycling method for CFLs. Go to that page
> for more info.)
>
>> What you should learn form this is to avoid cheap Chinese non rated
>> bulbs
>
> Yes, and the majority of families on a tight budget will readily
> comply by your suggestion.
They are no bargain. They never yield the rated light output nor the
rated lifespan, not even the rated light quality, they should be banned.
Good bulbs at the same price or less are readily available at Walmart.
Doubtless far more are sold there than Big Lots.
And as far as the safety hazard of a broken CFL that is also skewed.
The mercury level does indeed exceed the US limit for *chronic*
exposure. Of course that exposure is not chronic but dissipates in minutes.
All this reminds too much of all the diversions for not doing
something about Global Warming, Cigarette Smoking, Water Quality... And
all this so you can keep your 100W tungsten incandescents.
Jeff
>
>
>
>
James
> "JR Weiss" <jrweiss98155rem...@remove.comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I had a GE which lasted only 4 months. I would have been really
pissed if it cost $10 like years ago.
terryc
> I've had exactly one CFL die in the last 7 years, and that was because the
> lamp was knocked over. The bulb didn't break, either, just ceased working.
Yep, my Phillips would probably survive a tank driving over it, but an
Osram in its box fell 8' off a shelf and tinkle. I've also had GE come
apart in some sockets where you can not grip the base. Horses for courses.
David Harmon
chief_t...@yahoo.com (Chief Thracian) wrote,
>The DEP sent a specialist to Bridges’ house to test for mercury
>contamination. The specialist found mercury levels in the bedroom in
>excess of six times the state’s “safe” level for mercury contamination
>of 300 billionths of a gram per cubic meter.
What was it before breaking the fluorescent bulb? How long since
someone broke a thermometer in there and never cleaned it up?
www.Queensbridge.us
the msgs here are a real tutorial on CFL
RE:
"2. Frequent on/off duty, such as in motion sensor lights and
bathrooms
frequently used for short trips. "
I have heard that once a CFL is turned on, you should leave it on for
at least
15 minutes, or else its life is shortened.
So for bathroom at nite you should only use an incandescent nite lite
that you leave on.
Use incandescent for closets where you only turn on long enuf to grab
what you want
----
Want to set up many photo albums, with many levels of security?
http://www.smugmug.com/?referrer=jyt6FA46W3kDo
link will save you $5 on SmugMug.
Rod Speed
> WOW,
> the msgs here are a real tutorial on CFL
>
> RE:
> "2. Frequent on/off duty, such as in motion sensor lights and
> bathrooms
> frequently used for short trips. "
>
> I have heard that once a CFL is turned on, you should leave it on for
> at least
> 15 minutes, or else its life is shortened.
> So for bathroom at nite you should only use an incandescent nite lite that you leave on.
Makes more sense to use a CFL that you leave on instead.
That way you get more light for the same electricity used.
Gary Heston
www.Queensbridge.us <NOTv...@queensbridge.us> wrote:
[ ... ]
>So for bathroom at nite you should only use an incandescent nite lite
>that you leave on.
For the bathroom, get one of the always-on electroluminescent night
lights that uses a few cents worth of electricity a month and plug it
in. It's enough for night-adapted eyes. They're less than $5 at Wal-Mart.
I have several that have been working fine for years.
Gary
--
Gary Heston ghe...@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
Why is it that these days, the words "What idiot" are so frequently
followed by the words "at Microsoft"?
Gary Heston
Back in the old days, fluorescent bulbs had beryllium in them, which
was much more hazardous than mercury. So, they switched...
Keep in mind that with sufficiently sensitive instruments, you'll be
able to pick up traces of anything, and most of those "safe" levels
have little scientific basis.
Don Klipstein
www.Queensbridge.us wrote:
>WOW, the msgs here are a real tutorial on CFL
>
>RE:
>"2. Frequent on/off duty, such as in motion sensor lights and bathrooms
>frequently used for short trips. "
>
>I have heard that once a CFL is turned on, you should leave it on for
>at least 15 minutes, or else its life is shortened.
>
>So for bathroom at nite you should only use an incandescent nite lite
>that you leave on.
>
>Use incandescent for closets where you only turn on long enuf to grab
>what you want
Reasonably true - except that incandescents mostly have very little life
shortening from frequent cold starts. What incandescents highly do is
become unable to survive a cold start a little before becoming unable to
survive continuous operation.
As for a bathroom nightlight, I suggest for energy savings:
* A 1/16-1/8 watt electroluminescent one (if you want something that has a
fair chance based on my experience of reasonably lasting only a few years)
* A .3-.4 watt LED one, preferably either green or blue for both really
long life expectancy (better chance decade-plus) and good illumination to
night vision.
* The Feit Electric "Eternalite" C7 - with power consumption around .4
watt and actual expectation of life expectancy appearing to me to be to be
very high (several years to decade-plus) despite using white LEDs that
have degradation-prone phosphors. This particular model has the LEDs
being run at much lower power than usual for LEDs of such size.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Fake ID
Don Klipstein <d...@manx.misty.com> wrote:
>
> As for a bathroom nightlight, I suggest for energy savings:
>
>* A 1/16-1/8 watt electroluminescent one (if you want something that has a
>fair chance based on my experience of reasonably lasting only a few years)
>
>* A .3-.4 watt LED one, preferably either green or blue for both really
>long life expectancy (better chance decade-plus) and good illumination to
>night vision.
>
>* The Feit Electric "Eternalite" C7 - with power consumption around .4
>watt and actual expectation of life expectancy appearing to me to be to be
>very high (several years to decade-plus) despite using white LEDs that
>have degradation-prone phosphors. This particular model has the LEDs
>being run at much lower power than usual for LEDs of such size.
Wish I'd heard of these when my last incandescent nightlight bulb blew.
I got another pack of "LibertyLight" 1.4W flourescent nightlights.
The survivor from the first pack has been operating for over 5 years,
the lens has yellowed, the housing has become brittle, and light
output noticable lower than the new ones.
m
Don Klipstein
Heck - 5 years is a lot longer than I ever got from a fluorescent
nightlight. Yours could be a cold cathode one.
I tried a couple, and they lasted about 1-2 years.
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
John Savage
>On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 23:42:08 -0400, h wrote:
>
>> I've never had a CFL bulb last less than 5 years. I have lots of different
>> brands (at least a few are GE). All were purchased at either Home Depot or
>> Walmart. As far as electric savings go, I just look at my bill. It dropped
>> dramatically when we switched out all the bulbs.
>
>Weird and totally divorced from my reality, but different country.
7 or 8 years ago, CF globes from the supermarket typically lasted 5 to 12
months in our stairwell/security application requiring 14 hours continuous
service per day. Any CF globes that gave less than 3 months life I returned
directly to the distributor requesting replacement. Invariably the short-
lived globe was replaced with at least two new globes, or a shopping voucher
equivalent. For comparison, incandescent globes last around 3 to 9 months in
this service. Formerly, 60 to 100 watt incandescents were needed in the
stairwells; I replaced them with 15 to 18 watt CFs.
CF globes currently stocked by the supermarket giants** offer significant
improvement. Now, I anticipate a life of 8 to 24 months. (**Australia)
I find it convenient to write the installation date on the matt white
surface of each globe's base.
It is not widely known that ordinary incandescent globes are rated for a
life of 2500 hours (under test conditions). More expensive incandescents
are available which offer double this figure.
If nothing else, the reduced frequency of replacement must count for
something.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)
terryc
> I find it convenient to write the installation date on the matt white
> surface of each globe's base.
Good idea. Thanks.
Macuser
a broken one, or two, and cleaned up the mess with an ordinary broom and
dust pan. Nobody died. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
"Thrift is sexy." ;)
TKM
"Macuser" <spamisa...@meat.com> wrote in message
news:3az4l.991$Es4...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
The potential for mercury poisoning from a broken CFL is, IMHO, overblown.
Yes, children are more sensitive to mercury and so a clean-up in a house
with children should be prompt and thorough. In other cases, however,
follow common-sense recommendations. The best that I've found are at:
http://www.epa.gov/mercury/index.htm and for CFLs specifically at:
http://www.epa.gov/mercury/spills/index.htm#fluorescent
TKM